changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: GUEST,Stevebury
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:43 PM

Someone asked on this thread for some concrete examples. I've found the discussion to date very helpful in clarifying my own thoughts on setting a poem to music. So I'm willing to share my thought processes, and the changes I made, when I set a C. Fox Smith song to music.

After I attended Charlie Ipcar's workshop at the Getaway a couple of years ago, I was very taken by Fox's poem "The Old Fiddle." I thought it would lend itself to performing with fiddle accompaniment and drone. So even though Charlie Ipcar has created a nice setting (see elsewhere on Mudcat), I wanted a setting which lent itself to fiddle (not banjo) and which was in the right range and "fell under the fingers."

I haven't written many songs, let alone settings of existing poems, so I didn't go into this with much experience, or any well-articulated philosophy. But here's what I concluded.

* I won't change the author's words without a good reason. I did change "Full of dinky Chinee houses …" to "Full of Dinky Chinese houses …".   I hear "Chinee" as derogatory. (And I'm careful to say, "words by Cicely Fox Smith; edited/arranged by Steve Woodbury".)

* It's appropriate to take a verse, or lines, of the original as a chorus, to make the song more singable, and to provide for audience participation. I chose to use the two lines
    "Mouldy, musty, dumb and dusty, broken on the shelf,
    I thought I heard the sailor's fiddle singing to itself"
as a chorus, since they capture a key theme of the poem, emphasized after each verse.

* It's OK to leave out some lines or verses, if they make the song too long.
The original poem has eight-line verses and four-line verses; I split the eight-line verses to make all four-line verses.   I ended up dropping 18 lines, which still leaves eight verses plus the chorus. (And one of those verses I can leave out in performance if need be.) The poem is not a narrative, but instead presents a series of images. I don't think leaving out those lines hurts the song, and I don't think it does an injustice to C. Fox Smith.

* The right tune can give a lot of flexibility in adapting a poem to music. I found that by writing the tune in 3/ 4, instead of 2/4, I had a lot of flexibility in fitting the words. Some phrases go faster, some slower; this variability is good if you've got eight verses! I didn't have to change any words in the poem just to make them fit a Procrustean tune. With the lines
      "Ranzo, Ranzo, Reuben Ranzo" — came the sound to me
      Of a chantey chorus roaring with the roaring sea."
I chose go into a 2/4 chantey rhythm for "Ranzo, Ranzo, Reuben Ranzo" -- not the tune to the chantey, but a rhythmic allusion to it.

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:28 PM

Steve, I just read your post to Mike & he asked me to respond since I'm logged in...

Congratulations! You got it right the first time... all of it.

Mike

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 10:13 AM

For those who do not know, here is a source for "The Old Fiddle" and an incredible wealth of other English poems.

As far as I read, CFS imagines a clear stanza structure for each of her poems, of exactly equal rhythms. Obviously she suggested them to be lyrics of songs. In the "Fiddle" there are four stanzas of 8 + 4 lines, and a fifth one consisting only of 8 lines. No "Procrusteanism" required whatsoever, just compose 12 distinct lines of music.

A composer has the right to deviate from the poet's scheme, but I would be more careful about it than Steve. Extracting an artificial chorus sometimes works well (as Steve doubtless knows). In this case I am not yet convinced, not having heard the result.

Switching between 2/4 and 3/4 is generally an excellent idea, and so is changing the tempo. Modern songwriting should make sure that the rhythm reflects the stress pattern of the lyrics, but does not exactly reproduce the verse structure. As Steve observed, room to spare allows for flexible rhythms (and for "fill-ins" from the fiddle).

Leaving out verses: alas, sometimes required by today's impatient audiences. CFS imagined sung performances with more patient listeners, as if on long ship journeys or in retirement homes for sailors. In cases of poems not meant as songs, shortening sometimes has a better legitimation. The best classics did it, often tastefully, sometimes with sore losses - the music must make up for these. In other words: if you are Schubert, you can take more composer's licence than if you are Grishka.

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:50 PM

It's good to know there is continuing interest in the poetry of Cicely Fox Smith, and a spirited discussion of how one adapts her poems for singing. At this point over 100 of her poems have been so adapted and recorded, which I believe is considerably more than from any other poet, and that leaves about 600 more poems for other singers to consider; the 2nd Edition of The Complete Poetry of Cicely Fox Smith, scheduled for release next spring, will be even more complete, since we've been able to harvest another 60 or so poems from what we were able to print in the 1st Edition.

My own thoughts about how other people have adapted CFS's poems and my own perspective is summarized in my CFS Songbook:

"There are various ways that different performers have adapted these poems for singing. Some strictly adhere to the original text. Others take great liberties and cut entire verses while adding new wording and even choruses. I believe that the adaptation process is a delicate compromise of maintaining as much of the original poem as possible while trying to fashion it into something that can be sung well to a general audience. I find that some poems are readily sung as composed while others require major surgery. You are the ultimate judge with regard to how successful any musical rendition of a poem is."

Several people have kindly pointed out that I always include the original poem on my website, so people can see what changes I have made. Here's a link to my website lyrics page: http://www.charlieipcar.com/lyr_list.htm

I note for the record that I have also adapted poems for singing by Hamish Maclaren, John Masefield, Rudyard Kipling, Bill Adams, Burt Franklin Jenness, Edwin J. Brady, Harry Kemp, William McFee, Robert Lewis Stevenson and Angus Cameron Robertson.

Cheerily,
Charlie Ipcar, formerly known as "Charley Noble"

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 10:58 AM

hey, Charley... was wondering when you'd be showing up... :)

could you hazzard a guess as to how many of her poems were submitted to newspapers and/or magazines? As opposed to originally published in book form...

The reason I ask is because there has been the implication that each and every published work was the result of long & deliberate labor... which is hardly what I would expect from works done for quick publication in what can be referred to as ephemerial works, such as newspapers and many magazines... which are often subjected to editing prior to printing. Add to that the usual payment was by the word, which hardly encourages brevity when income is on the line.

I'm not suggesting that she didn't care or do her best to sum up her feelings at the time... but I suspect that once it was in a workable form there was little time or inclination to let it sit around for future reworking.

Your opinion would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 11:11 AM

"how many of her poems were submitted to newspapers and/or magazines? As opposed to originally published in book form"?

Certainly more than 50% but we're still finding poems in magazines and newspapers which were later printed in her own poetry books. We've harvested almost everything in Punch magazine but she also was published in some 20 or more other magazines and newspapers and not all of them are available on-line in digital form.

Most of the republished poems have small changes in words and/or punctuation but sometimes there were major changes. Our general rule is to reprint only the newest version of the poem, assuming that was the form she was most satisfied with.

The hand-written manuscripts that we've had access to have no indication of date for individual poems.

Cheerily,
Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Nov 13 - 06:02 PM

Here's a good example of how I've used major surgery in adapting a CFS poem for singing, "News in Daly's Bar": click here for lyrics and original poem

The resulting ballad still runs 8.5 minutes, which means I don't get to sing it very much at a regular session.

Cheerily,
Charlie

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 04:48 PM

Well, maybe I'll check back in a few more months for comments.

Charlie

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 08:02 PM

Singing a song and reading, or reciting verse are different things. Sometimes adjusting the words as written seems perfectly right to me. Often a song will involve shortening a text, or adjusting the phrasing, or changing it in other ways.

There's no disrespect to the author implied.

It's not that different from the way that in a production of a greatly admired text, say Hamlet, the play is shortened or the words amended. Shakespeare isn't turning in his grave. The performance is what matters.

Sydney Carter had the right of it in my view, when he said that he wanted people singing his songs to feel free to change them as they wished, and that he saw that as a way of keeping the words alive.

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 09:18 PM

I read the original first, Charlie, and the thought expressed above, that she was being paid by the word, resonated with me.   

You did a wonderful job tightening it up and eliminating the many belabored points. I quite liked the way you adapted it to song, as well. It rolled like the seas. The instrumental accompaniment did much to create that effect. Given that, a bit of accordion would go well in the mix, if only to underscore the text. Very well done.

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: GUEST,The Man from UNCOOL
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:23 PM

No-one's been on here for a long time, but FWIW, here's my take (as an inveterate re-writer of others' [& Trad.] songs) on it all.
By all means, alter, as long as you acknowledge [not doing is "passing off"].

Before getting as far as Jeri's re-post by Sarah Morgan, I was sure it was Sarah who told us that the "Overseas in India" version of "Home Lads, Home" had appeared in a magazine [I was unaware how recent], and I see that's confirmed here.
Strikes me that this kind of quasi-legitimately anonymous output almost certainly has an earlier printed source, but post CFS's oeuvre. In publishing of all ages, esp. pre-internet, acknowledging (c) was patchy. An editor, receiving (or finding) this with no authorship, could easily explain the convincing source, just by reading the poem. It might even accompany that mooted earlier non-CFS "original". Believing it anonymous (must have been tons of amateur War poetry written) why would our editor have sought further confirmation?
And has anyone suggested that, as a working poet (and/or being paid per line), CFS herself might have sent it to an Indian-leaning publication with tweaks to suit their audience? (Handel re-used his own tunes thus: efficient use of his creativity). The "British soldier" element might have been added alongside [by CFS?], in the manner of "All the facts in this story are true" banners in film credits. It's good marketing! She may have sent it elsewhere, too, but the others not been published, thus several localized variants may have existed, but been lost? Mags publishing such material prob. received a surfeit of it, from the Grishkas of this world, but Grishkas who DIDN'T recognize they "were not Schubert" :-), so CFS prob. had little clout (or reputation) which might make an editor choose her work over another submission.

The words themselves: if you've never heard / seen the original, they can make sense. The 'person' in India (someone who experienced the trenches, but returned to their war-decimated population afterwards) is thinking / dreaming about Hampshire, WHILE HE'S IN INDIA. In performance, hearers get little enough time to think about it, but it doesn't 'jar' as being wrong. But "India" could be anywhere non-UK [or "Overseas" doesn't make sense], as long as it has a military, to create the sounds that prompt the reverie. They don't have to be the actual WWI sounds. Of course, it makes MORE sense if it's Flanders, but to a 'cold' hearer, it's not critical.

While some in this thread invoke some good ol' classical names, let me add more, germane to the OP, though not about lyrics. Someone raised the fact with Brahms that Wagner had "stolen" one of his tunes. "Mine's still there", Brahms is supposed to have replied.

Subject: RE: changing words of c fox smith poetry in songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:43 PM

mc grath, i know 7 years have pssed and i assure you i have not been cogitating on your post incessantly, but as a song writer would not want the words of a song altered without somebody chatting to me about it. here is the song thati think is the best that i have ever managed.
A vale of tranquillity, as the curtain comes down

The stars brightly greet us as the silence surrounds
each song that we sang fond memory records
Like the stars in the night sky ,all of one accord.
Chorus Farewell my friends once more
As the night gets spent and our voices blend
Farewell my friends once more

2. The hours quickly passing nowthe fire gets low
The embers still glowing as we stir up the coals
So we sang the last song ,each chorus a bond
In harmony united all singing one song

3.The fiddler cast spells as she bowed away time.
We drank down the music far stronger than wine.
But the memories live on from the chalice of song
Of this night spent together before we move on

4.united together combining as one
Let us part in agreement, trough the power of song
All people in peace our voices concord
Like the stars in the night sky all of one accord

Copyright Dick Miles 1987,
if people want to sing it ..good, if they want to alter it just drop me an e mail