BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

I disagree that home schooling parents can't handle kids with ADD. The home schooling environment is perfect for the child with ADD, because the method of teaching can be perfectly molded to the child's style of learning so that the child is always interested and doesn't lose focus.   I know this from experience of having home schooled a child with ADHD.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:20 PM

CLEFT PALATE IS NOT A LEARNING DISABILITY. It is a PHYSICAL disability.

So what? In the conceptual scheme of most of humanity for most of history, it meant you wrote the person off and didn't think of trying to do anything about it. Just as people with brain disorders like absence seizures got written off. For the person on the receiving end of a disabling label, it makes no difference at all which bit of their anatomy the label is stuck on.


It's BECAUSE I taught him that although he couldn't get rid of his learning disabilities, he could learn how to compensate for them, and because I taught him to never listen to people who tried to make him feel like he wasn't doing his best, that he was able to compensate for the faulty brain wiring that was causing him so much trouble in the schools.

Brains are not made of wires and mechanistic analogies never helped anybody.

Do you in fact know that your son doesn't have something in the same category as absence seizures or gluten intolerance - a condition you don't know the aetiology of, one that maybe nobody knows the aetiology of yet, but which might be easily fixable by adding a chemical or subtracting an environmental toxin? (A lot of parents of autistic kids have now learned not to take the experts' word for it that nothing can be done).

There is often no meaningful distinction between "curing" a condition and "compensating" for it. But there is a distinction between wanting to learn more about what can be done for it and shutting your mind to all but one alternative forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM

The system can be improved, no doubt but "formalized child abuse"? Maybe just a bit over the top?


   No, based on observations of my own kids and many talks with parents. SATS were always voluntary for my kids....teachers didn't like it because they were high scorers....they seemed glad if other kids were away on sats day though!.
   The symptoms are all too real....but kids are resilient, and with love and belief from significant others will survive well enough. sadly this isn't true for all kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

I would love to see some statistics to back up that statement. How many? What is the percentage of top musicians and artists who did badly in school? How does it compare to the number of emminent scientists who did badly? How does that compare to the number of everyday Joes and Jills who did badly. I would be very surprised if the differences were more than a couple of points but as I can find nothing to back that up I will not suggest it is true.

I do know that some top names in all fields were academicaly very gifted as well so I am not sure what the relevance to this discussion is I'm afraid. But then again it is 0150 in the UK and I have still got to 0700 to go...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM

"I totally disagree that the term learning disability should not be used by anyone but the professionals who are working with the child"

That is your experience Carol but my experience is that parents I have known have been devastated to have their children with quite mild specific difficulties in spelling etc - which can occur in people of all abilities - labelled with this particular all encompassing 'label' which has become synonymous with impaired intellectual development in the UK

According to the British Dyslexia Association.

"Dyslexia can occur despite normal intellectual ability and teaching.
It is constitutional in origin, part of one's makeup and independent of socio-economic or language background.
Some learners have very well developed creative skills and interpersonal skills, others have strong oral skills.

Some have no outstanding talents.

All have strengths."

Dyslexia does not confer creativity on people - I only wish that was true - but people with this condition are just ordinary Joes with the usual range of skills who sometimes are quite adept at developing personal strategies in order to cope with study etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:40 PM

The reason the experts know that there is a difference in the brain "wiring" of people with learning disabilities and ADD as compared to other people, is because they've done brain scans and they can SEE that the brains of people with learning disabilities and ADD work differently than the brains of people who don't.

This is what makes them different from people who have other kinds of problems.

To people who have had learning disabilities and ADD their whole lives without knowing it, it is extremely liberating to have a name to put on their problem. Accepting that one has a learning disability that isn't going to go away is hardly shutting the mind to only one alternative forever. It is the first step in finding a way to cope with the problem instead of beating one's head against it one's whole life.

And I didn't tell my son that there is nothing to be done. I told him that there are good reasons why he has the problems he does, and he shouldn't ever let anyone make him feel ashamed of the way he is. And I taught him to not ever be afraid to get help if he needs it, and I taught him to never give up on himself. My son has been the way he is since birth. Teaching him how to live a good life despite his differences is hardly the same thing as shutting my mind to all but one alternative forever.

What I object to the most strenuously is when the poster who believes that learning disabilities can be gotten rid of blames a parent who is doing a damned good job of raising their kids for their kids learning disabilities. Blaming the parents of people with learning disabilities is no more enlightened (and is every bit as ignorant) as hiding people with visible physical disabilities away in an attic where no one can see them. It's just as archaic, just as ignorant, and just as ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:47 PM

It might be devastating for the parents to be told of the problem and provided with label, but parents often don't understand what it's like for the person with the disability. The kid just wants to know that their problem is not total inadequacy on their part. Having a name for it makes it something that the child can understand and work with. If the schools are using that label to refer to anything other than the disorder itself and are pigeon holing kids because of it, that supports what some of us have been saying about how badly kids with learning disabilities are served in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:39 PM

I don't have any percentages of top musicians and artists who did badly in school and who have/had learning disabilities. That's why I didn't give any before. But it is common. Here's a partial list of famous people with learning disabilities. A lot of them are people who were engaged in creative pursuits (and I include inventor in that category)...

http://www.greatschools.net/LD/managing/famous-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696&page=3



Just for information, here's a partial list of famous people who were home schooled...

http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:37 AM

I started that list of famous people with learning disabilities on the wrong page. Here it is starting on page one...

http://www.greatschools.net/LD/managing/famous-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696&page=1

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:30 AM

So, before I go and get some sleep, what are we saying here? That the people who do well at school or put in hours of practice and hard work are to be decried because they followed the 'norm', whatever that is? That having an unkown percentage of gifted geniuses who were outside the standard educational system somehow proves that everyone who is home schooled is more likely to be gifted than those who do well in standard education? Just where is this line of reasoning taking us?

Let me state once again that no-one. apart from one person. is saying that one type of schooling is better than another. They are complimentary (or is it complementary? Lack of schooling for you...)What started off as a reasonable question has become, once again, a vehicle for tilting at windmills.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:33 AM

Was any of that post directed at me? If so, I would suggest going back and actually reading my posts rather than inventing things for me to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:45 AM

Nope, I think it was definitely directed at me. I still would suggest going back and reading what I have said (hint: in more than one post, I said that parents should do what they think is best for their children, whether that is home schooling or public or privately run schools).

I did not say that home schooled people are commonly found in the top of the creative fields. I said that people with learning disabilities are commonly found among people who are the top in the creative fields. People with learning disabilities often have to be very creative and innovative just in order to get by in the world with their limitations. And often, since they are less encumbered by their disabilities when engaging in creative endeavors, it is natural for them to go into those kinds of fields when they grow up. This is a good combination of influences for people to excel in creative endeavors. Rick Fielding is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:59 AM

I don't think citing Joan or Arc of Leonardo da Vinci as examples of home-schooled successes really adds very much to the debate. Far better to narrow it down to those educated at home post 1960. Then the household names drop to, er...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:11 AM

1960 is a pretty arbitrary limit. There's no reason to use that one except for the purpose of skewing the argument in the favor of the ones who want to use it. What the list shows us (and most of the people on it lived far more recently than Joan of Arc) is that schooling outside the home is not necessary for people to accomplish great things.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:17 AM

Steve Winwood dropped out of school at the age of 14 which caused a right kerfuffle at the time.

Not sure if he carried on with tuition of some sort.

Don't suppose he was that bothered as music was his love and Spencer Davis group was his destiny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3g_sOiOb8&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:27 AM

"Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you..."

Sorry, Lizzie, but that really does show how out of touch you are with modern teaching practices. Even if you could find one in a school today, you'd have to call it a "chalkboard" - but you're much more likely, however, to find an interactive whiteboard and kids working in groups and on computers.

Aside from the education debate, there are a couple of other areas that worry me about home schooling and, before I attract a tirade of abuse, let be emphasise that I'm talking from my own, personal perspective here.

As we live in a small village with only a handful of children, my daughter's friends (and my son's before her) are drawn almost exzclusively from school. Without school, she would have few friends. Then there are the after-school clubs that she goes to - these, too, are an important part of her life.

I also believe that one of my obligations, as a parent, is to teach my kids self-reliabce and independence. I worry that, if they'd been taught at home, this might have been stifled. As I am 60 and my daugter is 9, there's a strong possibility that I won't be around to help with many of the important decisions she'll have to make so I want her to have the knowledge and confidence to make her own decisions (and not to be afraid to make mistakes)and I believe that this can best be achieved by interacting with as many people as possible and that her school is the right environment for this. It has certainly worked with our son and it is something that my parents were wise enough to do with me. I can honestly say that this approach has helped me get through a number of difficult periods in my life and I am eternally grateful for my parent's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:32 AM

I am not sure what a list of famous people who have succeeded despite being disadvantaged adds to the debate.

It certainly does not add anything to the debate about home schooling.

Lizzie, just to make it clear - I have taught in schools - but the vast bulk of my teaching was with mature students whose learning for all sorts of reasons was curtailed when younger. This included those with specific learning difficulties (which covers dyslexia) but there were other reasons why they didn't succeed in school including for example spending a long time in prison.

The student I am most proud of was and still is quadriplegic, and couldn't talk or feed himself and needed 24-hour per day care.

He is doing an M.A at Leeds University having got a 2:1 degree in social policy.

As a matter of interest do you think you could have made a better job of teaching him than the professionals?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:13 AM

The list adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. I only posted it because someone wanted me to provide some background for something I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:30 AM

Home schooling can provide an environment in which children can become more independent rather than less so, because, for one thing, there is little to no peer pressure. And often, home schooled children are able participate in deciding how they will learn, which is usually not the case in schools. If a particular parent feels that they would not be able to allow that kind of autonomy for their kid if they were to home school, and if they felt that their kid needed that, then that parent would not be good candidate for home schooling their child.

As I said in an earlier post, when I was home schooling my son, we belonged to an association of home schooling families who would all get together frequently to provide the kids with opportunities to be with other kids, doing all kinds of activities. Many kids developed strong friendships with the other kids in the association. We lived in a very small town in a very rural and isolated area, but there were a couple dozen home schooling families in our group.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM

The reason the experts know that there is a difference in the brain "wiring" of people with learning disabilities and ADD as compared to other people, is because they've done brain scans and they can SEE that the brains of people with learning disabilities and ADD work differently than the brains of people who don't.

ALL of them? And PERMANENTLY, no matter what they eat or do? Are you supposing that brain activity can never be influenced by what you eat, what physical diseases you've got, or your daily habits?

Most cases of diagnosed ADHD can be vastly improved or completely cured by changes to the environment - removing dietary and environmental allergens and distracting influences that interfere with sustained attention. A hell of a lot of kids are TRAINED to be attention-deficient by parents to whom a structureless, frantic lifestyle of addiction to hyperstimulation and recreational electronics is normal. Sure there may be a few with some syndrome that isn't responsive to environmental intervention - the diagnosis is simply a phenomenological label. A lot of parents of kids diagnosed "ADHD" just LOVE the model you're advocating because it means they're never going to need to take responsibility for getting TV out of their life, thinking of something more constructive to do with time shared with their kids, and learning to cook. It's just his brain, whoop-de-doo, it's just fine if if I leave him at the Playstation all night.


This is what makes them different from people who have other kinds of problems.

It's a diagnostic label applied to certain kinds of behaviour. You know perfectly well that it is never in practice confined to people who have been through the sort of rigorous workup it would take to identify a brain syndrome that was genuinely and provably not responsive to somatic and environmental treatment. That would take thousands of dollars in every case. It's not like there's an immuno-assay blood test.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:40 AM

>>Most cases of diagnosed ADHD can be vastly improved or completely cured by changes to the environment <<

Completely cured is bunkem Jack.

They can be taught strategies to help them through their difficult times. I have a daughter who is 18 and has been diagnosed with ADHD. She has problems with her short term memory, socialising and in times of stress or excitement, can get so hyperactive. However she has learned strategies to help her in such scenarios. She will never be completely cured, but she will need to live with it, the best way she can. She has a sensible diet and has always had one. She knows that certain products make her go bonkers, so she avoids them as best as possible. We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug. however in doing that she had to learn strategies.
We are very pleased with her, as she has managed to get herself into University (only people who understand ADHD will know how difficult that is). She is also spending a year in Holland as an Au Pair and is doing very well.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:11 AM

We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug

It's terrible for some people; others tolerate it well enough for a long time that they don't need any other treatment; for others it's a not-too-bad temporary measure to calm the whole situation down when starting some longer-term strategy. You're suggesting it should be banned, based on a sample of one? A parent of an ADHD kid is likely to end up messianically for or against it, depending on what happened with theirs; someone who sees how hundreds of kids react to it will be less likely to go to extremes.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Only very rarely (taking "cured" to mean "nobody could tell they were any different unless they asked"). But a great many can be helped by appropriate intervention, and the earlier it's done the more likely it is to be successful. (GF/CF diet in particular; waste of time trying years after onset). Getting from total muteness and faecal incontinence to complete sentences and normal toilet use is not cure, but it makes a big difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

'Cured' is such an inappropriate word. These are not illnesses, but a natural part of human diversity.
   What can be done is to teach behaviours which are appropriate to culturally normative institutions. An alternative is not to expose them to these ratyher artificial institutions.This altrnative is normally the reserve of those who have 'independent means.'
In the 1909 edition of the 'handbook of mental deficiency' Tredgold and Soddy noted that a fair proportion of the feeble minded were members of the gentry 'well suited to the amusements of their class', and therefore in no need of socital intervention.King George V's eldest son had 'learning difficulties' but was provided with a secluded cottage, servants etc. No need to cure the rich!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:23 AM

Purely out of interest I looked up some 'famous' modern muscians/vocalists with dyslexia

Cher .
Brad Little .
John Lennon.
Nigel Kennedy, Violinist.
Bob Weir, Grateful Dead Guitarist.

A brief look at biographies yielded the information that
Cher and her sister lived in dismal poverty with their divorced mother until 1961.
Although their financial condition improved when their mother remarried Cher already was a 'rebel' at school and left when, at 16, she met 28 year old met songwriter and producer Sonny Bono.

Brad Little was educated in the American public system although his father, an academic, said that he sometimes ached for his struggle but felt it had "become a symbol for his confidence in his ability to achieve in the area of his considerable talent and expertise."
When his father was conducting a university study abroad program for college students and lived in Salzburg, Austria brad had a year of home tutoring

When he was four years old, John Lennon's parents separated and he ended up living with his Aunt Mimi. His father was a merchant seaman and John did not see a lot of his father when he was small; his mother, Julia Stanley Lennon Dykins, was struck and killed by a drunk driver in 1958.
John Lennon was educated at Dovedale County Primary School, followed by Quarry Bank Grammar School (from 1952 until 1957) and the Liverpool College of Art.

Nigel Kennedy was born into a musical family
His grandfather, Lauri Kennedy, was principal cello in the BBC Symphony Orchestra.
Nigel's father, John Kennedy, became principal cello in the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra under Sir Thomas Beecham, but then moved to Australia, possibly not knowing that Nigel had been conceived.
His mother, Scylla Stoner, was a piano teacher.
Aged seven he won a place at the Yehudi Menuhin School, the UK's most elite training institution for gifted young musicians; Menuhin's family sponsored his education.
He has been known to clam up about this private intensive teaching environment once commenting
"Well, like, the only sport we were allowed to play against other schools was table tennis, because otherwise we might damage our hands. And there was this guru who taught yoga." Menuhin was passionate about yoga and insisted on its inclusion in the curriculum. "He used our table-tennis table to give demonstrations – maybe he was trying to levitate or something – and he completely wrecked it! I took up running to get away from the yoga."

Bob Weir was raised by his adoptive parents in a suburb of San Francisco
He attended mainly independent schools in the area but had trouble with his dyslexia and was expelled from nearly every school he attended
In 2002, Weir signed on as an official supporter of Little Kids Rock, a non-profit organization that provides free musical instruments and instruction to children in underserved public schools throughout the U.S.A

A mixed bag probably as far across the board of educational experiences it's possible to get!

I apologize it adds nothing to the argument one way or another but...... it is a music site folks :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:51 AM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

Carol I am not sure if this is you talking and I am not sure whether this is something that has been carefully researched or something you have an impression of.

I don't think there is any evidence that a lot of top musicians and artists did poorly in school - but I am happy to be corrected by detailed research.

Incidentally professionals in this country end not to use the word "disabilities".

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:06 AM

>>We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug

It's terrible for some people; others tolerate it well enough for a long time that they don't need any other treatment; for others it's a not-too-bad temporary measure to calm the whole situation down when starting some longer-term strategy. You're suggesting it should be banned, based on a sample of one? A parent of an ADHD kid is likely to end up messianically for or against it, depending on what happened with theirs; someone who sees how hundreds of kids react to it will be less likely to go to extremes.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Only very rarely (taking "cured" to mean "nobody could tell they were any different unless they asked"). But a great many can be helped by appropriate intervention, and the earlier it's done the more likely it is to be successful. (GF/CF diet in particular; waste of time trying years after onset). Getting from total muteness and faecal incontinence to complete sentences and normal toilet use is not cure, but it makes a big difference. <<

Jack

I find your comments very patronising, especially as you have no idea of the hard work that has gone into the development of both our daughters.

We took our daughter off Ritalin, after consulting specialists and looking into the effects of the drug. Our daughters teacher begged us to take her off it and our dentist who was a friend, told us to get her off it, becuase of the severe side effects. So Jack I am not stupid enough to take an action like that based on my own decisions.

Autism is a disorder of neural development that is characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior. These signs all begin before a child is three years old.[

As regards our Autistic daughter, we have been working with her since she was 3 and was statemented at 3 and a half, and is now 14. I and my wife have worked very closely with the specialists and I have done a lot of Home teaching based on what the specialist were doing and today, she is in mainstream with support. She can talk the hind leg off a donkey. She can read very well. She, through a lot of hard work in her early days, can use the computer proficiently and much better than most older people. Thats becuase we and the specialists have put a lot of hard work in over the years.
However the down side is, that she has no friends becuase of her impaired social interaction, is unable to improvise and freaks out if forced to, gets upset very easily when routines aren't met, etc etc etc.

We as parents have taken out responsibilities very seriously and have always worked very closely with the specialists and the schools and are currently drawing up a 2 year plan to improve as much as possible her basic skills, so that we can as much as possible get to the point where we can make her self dependant as soon as possible for her sake. Wether that works , remains to be seen, but it won't be for the lack of hard work on many peoples parts.


Please realise that their are parents out there who have literally give up their lives to support our special needs children and for you to make such glib comments, is not appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:34 AM

Those lists of "famous people like us" are nearly always dubious, and the dyslexia one more than most. Lennon published a lot of stuff in manuscript, and there's nothing dyslexic about any of it. Deliberately eccentric in a way that would drive a rigid teacher up the wall, yes, but it never comes across as being something he couldn't help. Look at this manuscript, intended for private use - the words are not simple to spell but they're all spot-on

http://www.finebooksmagazine.com/issue/200903/graphics/auction/9-lennon.jpg

whereas here he is in full creative-spelling mode for public consumption:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40124000/jpg/_40124882_page_220.jpg

And some of those entries are based on no evidence whatever - look at the ones on Flaubert and Agatha Christie. Einstein is a favourite adoptee by advocacy groups; I've seen a few of his manuscripts and they have nothing in common with any dyslexic writing (the whole lot is at http://www.alberteinstein.info/manuscripts/ , but my browser can't access that).

Yeats is an interesting one. That site does make a good case for him being dyslexic. But he was also completely tone-deaf, unable to recognize any tune. Hardly any of his poetry is singable. His mental world must have been very different from most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:43 AM

It is indeed directed at you, Carol. The reason being that it was you who said that many artists etc. probably have learning disabilities. With no kind of statistics to back that up. You still have not provided any proof that the proportion of gifted people with learning difficulties is any higher than that of anyone else.

I have read your posts and I know that you said parents should do what they think best. I am not disputing that in the slightest. I am challenging your statement that implies that people with learning diffiulties are more creative than people without. Not saying it untrue, just asking for proof. It was you who started that whole line of reasoning yet now questioned you want to go back to the main point. Fine by me.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

Dave
I think that what you get is that some special needs people, find music something they love with a passion. This may be particularly true with people who are Aspbergers. They tend to be brilliant with one subject and as such are hopelessly obsessive about it.

My daughter who is Autistic with learning difficulties and not considered aspbergers, was amazingly good at picking up how to play keyboard. As such when she is concentrating on soemthing she enjoys, is is almost like she is single tasking and consequently listens and soaks up what is told and taught and she has this amazing memory capabilty. Unfortunately she got bored with playing the keyboard, but we still leave it around in case she ever gets the desire to play again.

Having said all of that and bearing in mind that through Faldingworth live I meet many performers, I have only come across 2 who I would with confidence class as Aspbergers and they have learnt to overcome their problems, enough to go on stage. Don't ask me who they are, becuase I will not divulge that.

So I would say that many artist's do not have learning disabilities.

What is interesting, is that I see fine singer's or musician's who seem to lack self esteem and do not beleive they are as good as they are.

That doesn't mean that they have learning disabilities. They may have issues such as depression etc, but I don't think that would be classed as learning disabilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:29 AM

Autism is a disorder of neural development that is characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior. These signs all begin before a child is three years old.

You are ignoring regressive autism, which now accounts for the great majority of cases in the UK and typically strikes a few years later. "Autism spectrum disorder" is a wider category again.

Most of the patients my girlfriend treats have regressive autism - they tend to be a bit atypical (not sure how many she's dealt with, must be well into triple figures). But it's very rare that no combination of treatment approaches achieves anything, no matter what kind of autism they've got. Parents often give up, though - often with more reason than the parents of hyperactive kids, since the gains can be minimal and require enormous effort.

As regards our Autistic daughter, we have been working with her since she was 3 and was statemented at 3 and a half, and is now 14. I and my wife have worked very closely with the specialists and I have done a lot of Home teaching based on what the specialist were doing and today, she is in mainstream with support. She can talk the hind leg off a donkey. She can read very well. She, through a lot of hard work in her early days, can use the computer proficiently and much better than most older people. Thats becuase we and the specialists have put a lot of hard work in over the years. [...]
Please realise that their are parents out there who have literally give up their lives to support our special needs children and for you to make such glib comments, is not appreciated.

I don't see where you could have read anything I've written as attacking you for making that sort of effort. You obviously aren't the sort of parent who ignores all expert opinion and treats their child as a guinea pig for a theory of their own. I am simply pointing out that for some autistic kids a better outcome might be possible, or the same sort of outcome with less work. Not all autistic kids are the same. For others the reality might be much worse, 15 years of heartbreaking and totally wasted effort ending in no gain and no future. You can't generalize.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM

"I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people."

Carol, I've been trying to tell people that for years and years..had a thread over on the BBC called 'Musicians and Dyslexia' years back...it's still there, somewhere...but my goodness, didn't 'they' hound me out of town for that one.

I can tell a musician who's dyslexic, autistic...purely from watching them...

Some of our best musicians are...and it's way past time that they felt proud of that fact, because it sure is nothing to be ashamed of.

So many famous people, scientists, politicians, musicians, artists..etc...are on 'the circle'

I think it's absolute magic!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:14 AM

OK fair enough Jack. One of the problems of forums like this is misunderstanding the meaning of what somebody is trying to say.

>>Not all autistic kids are the same<<

You can say that again, they are all different.

They all need support from their parents and the professionals to give them the best possible outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:26 AM

There are two musicians I know who are both Cambridge graduates and who were also diagnosed as dyslexic when small children. They considered this not a "gift" but a blasted nuisance. Each, however, received appropriate remedial tuition and are now where they are, playing in top bands.

I know another with Asberger's Syndrome who refuses all therapy or treatment. He's a total pain in the arse, as is anyone else with this condition, and is unable to play in bands with others.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with "home education" (cranky or not) but it certainly exposes how preposterous it is to regard someone with a learning difficulty as somehow "special". Appropriate intervention by skilled experts can and does get round or overcome such problems and enables a more or less "normal" life (whatever that is).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

Once again I ask, what is the point being made about some of our top musicians etc having learning difficulties? What has it got to do with home learning? Why are people getting sidetracked with this nonsense? Some of our top people have some form of learning difficulty. Some of our top people have green eyes. Some of our top people are paedophiles. Some of our top people whistle dixie while having a leak. What does it matter? What relevence does it have to home learning?

Hint - look at the thread title...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:02 PM

What I am saying is that people's learning disabilities should never be blamed on the parents. There may come a day when a cure for them is found, but it has not been found yet.

Yes, learning disabilities and ADD can be remediated, but remediation is not a cure and doesn't make the learning disability go away. My son was BORN with ADHD. I know this because a lot of the manifestations of it that he exhibited were apparent almost from the day he was born. If kids get ADD from their environment, then it's not ADD. It's something else.

The only TV my son had access to most of his childhood was educational TV. We didn't have a TV for the first few years of his life, and when we did get one, we didn't have access to any commercial TV for most of the time when we did have one. Most of my time was spent interacting with my son because he required enormous amounts of mental stimulation or he would go bonkers (almost from the day he was born). But he was also very sensitive to any kind of sensory stimulation and would get overstimulated very easily, and would cry nonstop for about an hour every day (when he was an infant) while he released all of the pent up stimulation he had acumulated throughout the day.

I spent hours of every day reading to my son. Time that wasn't spent with me reading to him, he spent playing with friends. They played pretend, they made secret formulas in what they called the "formula kitchen" in the basement, they made secret mazes and forts in the corn field out back or in the bushes around the creek, or up in the trees that surrounded the house. One of my son's favorite toys was a rope he chose as a birthday present one year. It was just about 6' of thick green rope, but he and his friends could pretend that rope was all kinds of things in their imaginary play world.

ADD is NOT just a diagnostic label applied to certain kinds of behavior. I know because I have it. It is a way that a person feels and a way that a person experiences the world. And it's not the same as the way "normal" people feel and experience the world. I know this because I talk to people who don't have it, and they tell me they don't experience the kinds of things that people with ADD say they experience. People who focus only on the behavioral aspects of ADD don't have it and don't know what it's like to live with it.

Someone needs to get off their high horse and accept the fact that they don't know shit about ADD. I'm an expert on ADD because I have lived with it my whole life, and because I raised a child who has it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

I never said that the proportion of gifted people with learning disabilities was greater than anyone else. Again, someone is putting words in my mouth. I said it is common. I am going on anecdotal evidence only and I have not claimed that I have any statistical evidence to back it up. As someone who has learning disabilities myself, I tend to notice when I hear accounts of creative people and sports figures also, who say they had difficulties in school, and how that contributed to their choice of career. It is common.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:22 PM

Learning disabilities are also not just a cluster of symptoms. They are a way that people experience the world. Although people can be taught to approach learning in ways that remediate the disability, they don't change the way the people who have them experience the world. They usually still have to work harder to get the same results as other people. They have to continue to use the workarounds they develop for themselves their whole lives, and they still display the little quirks that come with their disability, even if they are able to make them less obvious.

The other day, JtS said to me, "something's wrong with your brain". He was saying it as if he'd just discovered it. I said, "No kidding! I have ADD!"

Last night, I discovered an online forum for people with dyscalculia (my specific learning disability). It was so refreshing to read what other people with this disability had to say and to see so much of myself in them. It was like I had found my people at last. The people who know how how I experience the world, because they experience it in much the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM

The largest national agency dealing with ADD disagrees, Carol. That includes professionals as well as fellow sufferers.

http://www.add.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=92488&orgId=atdda


DEFINITION OF AD/HD:

AD/HD is a diagnosis applied to children and adults who consistently display certain characteristic behaviors over a period of time. The most common core features include:

distractibility (poor sustained attention to tasks)
impulsivity (impaired impulse control and delay of gratification)
hyperactivity (excessive activity and physical restlessness)
In order to meet diagnostic criteria, these behaviors must be excessive, long-term, and pervasive. The behaviors must appear before age 7, and continue for at least 6 months. A crucial consideration is that the behaviors must create a real handicap in at least two areas of a person's life, such as school, home, work, or social settings. These criteria set ADHD apart from the "normal" distractibility and impulsive behavior of childhood, or the effects of the hectic and overstressed lifestyle prevalent in our society.

According to the DSM-IV (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition) some common symptoms of ADHD include: often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes; often has difficulty sustaining attention to tasks; often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly; often fails to follow instructions carefully and completely; losing or forgetting important things; feeling restless, often fidgeting with hands or feet, or squirming; running or climbing excessively; often talks excessively; often blurts out answers before hearing the whole question; often has difficulty awaiting turn.

Please keep in mind that the exact nature and severity of AD/HD symptoms varies from person to person. Approximately one-third of people with AD/HD do not have the hyperactive or overactive behavior component, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:50 PM

Yes, people classify it in ways that help them provide help for people who have it. But people who have it don't experience it that way. People who are describing it have to use a set of behaviors to define it because that's what they have to work with. People who have it describe it differently because that's how they experience the world.

People with autism describe their experiences very differently than those who don't have it who use the outward things they see to describe it also. When I read what Temple Grandin has to say about how she experiences her world, it is very different from the way a professional will describe autism. And what she says about how she experiences things is where I got my belief that ADD is a little sister to autism, because I experience many of the things that she does, although my overall experience is very different.

People shouldn't think that the professionals' descriptions of these disorders in any way helps people to understand what it is like to live with them. They don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

"Appropriate intervention by skilled experts can and does get round or overcome such problems and enables a more or less "normal" life (whatever that is)."

Hellooooeeee? Dyslexia is NOT a problem. It ONLY becomes a problem when children are forced to learn (only in schools) in a non-dyslexic way, by non-dyslexic brained people, who seem totally UNABLE to accept that all brains do NOT think as theirs do.

I know people with Aspergers and they can be the kindest, warmest people at times...

Sorry, dyslexia IS a gift, because without the creative minds, this world would be a very sorry place. It only becomes a pain in the arse when we have to confront those who think we MUST think and do as *they* do...and the sooner the Dyslexic people of this world stand together and say "Eff off and leave us alone, because we're perfectly happy being as we are!" the better we'll all be.

It's kinda like being left-handed in this bloody right handed world.
Left to my own ways I'd right from right to left, read from right to left, but...nope..I have to adjust to *their* world, the right handers that is. WHY?   At school people grumped at me for nudging them with my arm, my hand was always covered in ink, because it rested on what I'd just written...My brain tossed and turned at trying to read back to front, in a world of people who didn't understand how that felt.

God, I can recall doing 'writing exercises' that nearly made me fall over my chair with dizziness! Trying to do a number eight fried my brain utterly....and the patterns....

To this day I cannot do patterns. I cannot fit something into the correct shape.

In the National Trust shop, Natalia did the '1,2,3, folding' thing when showing customers how to fold their little shopping bags into almost nothing, whilst I stared at it, flummoxed....then smiled at the customer and got them laughing at my head.   

We had some wonderful jars of jams....I cooed over the beauty of the glass, the shape of the jars...but Natalia saw only the practical side, the difficulty in washing them, filling them again..the customer who was listening to us laughed out loud at the Creative and the Scientific brain...   :0)

School confused me. It confused my children.   

Home Educationn doesn't do that, because they learnt/learn in the way they are intended to, not in the way that they are expected to.

Oh...and two Steiner schools have won an opt out decision from having to make their toddlers write and read to the National Curriculum. Read it in the paper today...in The Times...

Yay, sock it to 'em Steiner!
And sock it to 'em Carol, too, because she's talking one helluva lot of sense. Why? Because she's living in a world that most people here don't understand and seem determined NOT to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:32 PM

Please can I just say once more

DYSLEXIA IS NOT A ******* GIFT!

whatever garbage Ron Davis would have people believe that the genius of people like Einstein, Edison etc didn't occur in spite of a specific learning difficulty but - because of it!

'This myth - the 'affliction of the geniuses' continues to be spread despite the fact that the knowledge of the definition of dyslexia and the reading of any standard biographies would immediately reveal the inaccuracies of many such claims.'


The first key to wisdom is constant questioning
By doubting we are led to enquiry and, by enquiry, we discern the truth
Peter Abelard

Understand Lizzie if I doubt the scientific validity or your anecdotal 'evidence' and question your 'ability' to discern specific learning difficulties or autism in a muscian "purely from watching them..."

Is this any more credible that your initial grossly inaccurate statement about home educators all being placed on the 'at risk' child abuse register?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:49 PM

Er...they/we *are*, Emma.

Ask Education Otherwise.

Sorry, Dyslexia IS a gift....but for way too long it's seemed far more like a bloody hard slog, because of the way children who have it, and other brain patterns like it, are treated.

The sooner schools, teachers, experts, whatever begin to realise that we are the way we are *supposed* to be, for a very important reason, the better.

And actually, it'd be REALLY cool if all the "I *Refuse* To Understand!" bastards stood up and apologised for what they've done to so many deeply creative, intelligent, kind, shy, sensitive people.

The Apology could start with SCHOOL!

Hey, now wouldn't THAT be something?

:0)


My builder? Dyslexic. He 'sees' the finished room in a flash. Always had trouble reading and writing...is only just starting to realise that the GIFT he has as a builder is because of the way his brain thinks, interprets, processes..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:56 PM

Heh... just found this in the dyscalculia forum...

"welcome...glad you found us! i was diagnosed with all tipes of LD in 3rd grade. now i am 13 and doing fine, mostly because of my amazing mom who is homeschooling me"

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:06 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:13 PM

Lizzie you have probably realized by now that although I suffer from a couple of recognized specific learning difficulties I am NOT a shy, sensitive person; but, my education has helped to make me a very independent minded person - certainly not necessarily prepared to accept everything posted by a pressure group or someone merely regurgitating their claims!

In fact, I am left handed and have been scored high on spatial awareness/skills although my first career was in the scientific rigours of chemical research.

I have had the pleasure to meet in my life a number of talented people both artistically, musically etc - a few of them (more or less what you might expect statistically) also have a specific learning difficulty - they are all individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:35 PM

I never said that the proportion of gifted people with learning disabilities was greater than anyone else.

Phew, at last! Then we can completely discount any postings made about gifted people with learning difficulties. It is, as you say, just anecdotal. My feeling is that it is a complete red herring but I was awaiting evidence to the contrary. I wonder why it was brought up in the first place, especially by someone who, just a short while up the page, was expounding the values of constructive communication?

I suppose it is my lack of social skills that prevents me from understanding special people...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Listen, I am not responsible for other people putting words in my mouth and mischaracterizing the things I say. If people want to do that, it's entirely their responsibility, and it has nothing whatever to do with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

"My feeling is that it is a complete red herring but I was awaiting evidence to the contrary....."

Nope, it's no red herring.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

And why my anecdotal mentioning of the fact that it is common for people who have learning disabilities to do well in creative endeavors would hit such a nerve is a bit puzzling to me. Does someone have such a strong need to feel superior to those who have learning disabilities that they can't cope with the idea that some of them can be better at some things than they are? That seems extremely small to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

It could be a kipper