BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:37 PM

dunnoResolve , thirty years before they were squaring up to the Welsh miners at Tonypandy....less than 20 years before that in the General strike as well.

I used to have a little recording studio in the 1980's and the late Tufty Swift made an album there for Topic with Jim Eldon and someone else, whose name I've forgotten - one of ashley hutchings chaps.

The album was called You'll Never Die For Love and it was based on a collection of marches and other tunes made by a local militia band in the early 1800's that Tufty had discovered in an old piano stool.

I sad to Tufty, so this was probably the gang that put down the Pentrich Riots. This is the music of the forces of repression.

Tufty said, Yeh well that's folkmusic. think about songs like the British Grenadiers......

We got stuff to be ashamed about. We know that. But by Christ, the other side has as well. Some people on this thread seem to be saying otherwise.

That's in the nature of war. And lets face it that's what the hunger strike was about. they said they were political prisoners - and shouldn't be made to wear prison uniform.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM

Teribus... be more respectful of people's feelings. to these guys he was a hero.

Okay, they aren't respectful of you - but carry yourself with more dignity for godsake - you're old enough to know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:56 PM

Post wasted on the "keypad warrior" Teribus, WLD. The guy was a failure in every aspect of his pitiful life, hence his postings of military achievements on the edge of a British regiment he failed to acquire rank in.

It would be unlikely any organisation would call upon him to commence a Hunger Strike, if you saw his physical condition, it would take around six years for him to wither. Highly unlikely they could wait that long for aims and objectives !

He has been losing argument after argument throughout all the threads here and it's no surprise he waddled in here to attempt to talk down Irish & Irish American members. He belonged to a failed force that actually admitted in the Operation Banner report that they would never have beaten the Provisional IRA. Professional soldiers tend to be more intelligent.

Now to correct and answer his remarks.

"Bobby Sands hunger (stike) ? Film "Hunger" - All this prat managed to achieve was possibly "weight watcher or of the year 1985" absolutely nothing else.

- REPLY. R.G. Sands stood on principle, qualities Teribus could never understand. To resort to playground remarks gives the character of the man.

Now let's face it exactly what did he starve himself to death for?

United Ireland - Not achieved. - - REPLY, Political Status was his aspiration.

REPLY. He undertook a hunger strike as a soldier to demand the right for "Political Status" for his comrades, something which the British government gave him during his time in cages 9 and 11. In 1976 they removed it. Political Status is a right for those incarcerated for politically motivated actions.

A Police Force that was predominantly Catholic or Republican - Not achieved.

-REPLY No that was never an objective Teribus,
disbandment of the B Specials (1920-1970)
disbandment of the Ulster Defence Regiment (1970-1992)
disbandment of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (1922- 2001)
disbandment of the home service Battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment.

ALL ACHIEVED.

A commitment from the Government of the UK that Ireland will be a single united country - Not achieved -

REPLY, No commitment was ever requested by the Provisionals. Demanded yes.

Can any of you tell me what this man achieved apart from writing songs with lyrics that were entirely spurious, historically incorrect and intended to inflame a bad situation with the sole intent of making it worse.

- REPLY, well he gets your blood to boil, and that's enough in it's own right. He brought to the eyes of the world the determination of the Irish people and the injustice against those incarcerated within the blocks.

Now all that is bad enough but these were the people he was supposed to have been protecting.

- REPLY, Senseless remark, not requiring an answer.

Protecting, Jesus "H" come dancing Christ Bobby Sands and his (colleqagues) killed 3500+ Irishmen, Women and Children and injured and maimed about 30,000 more - For What???

- REPLY, I would reply if I knew what colleqagues were ? is it a collection of pictures cut from magazines ?

Absolutely Nothing - Hey boys that is what this prat died for absolutely nothing. And that is how history will record his so called sacrifice - It was made for nothing.

- REPLY, well Teribus, there are 14 streets in the world named after him, his funeral was attended by over 100,000 people in Ireland. His sacrifice has been an inspiration to a generation. The British government did make amendments to incarceration after the strike.

Oh Yes "I wish I was back Home In Fuckin' Derry" - Hey all you so called Folkies take a bloody good look at those lyrics - lets hear you give them some sort of (credance) based on history taking into account that they sing of something that was supposed to have happened in 1803 but was written about in the 1970's - Bobby Sands contribution should have been based upon historical accuracy, particularly as it should have based upon 20 X 20 hindsight - But there again, as with all things Irish - Why let the truth get in the way of a good story.

REPLY, he didn't life in Derry, Teribus is that John Foggery's band, credance you refer to ?


It has been a pleasure replying to you and pointing out these facts. A few I would like to add are, the aims and objectives of the Fourth Northern Command for equality of the nationalist people in the North of Ireland, the right to vote, housing fit for habitation was achieved.

There should be glorification in the loss of the life of a volunteer. True remorse and regret has been expressed at the loss of life of all non- combatants. Families of soldiers who died in the North of Ireland during the war are entitled to the same respect.

In your final post on this thread tonight, you exposed yourself as a fool, nothing more, nothing less other than a fool.

Go raibh maith agat

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:13 AM

Guest Observer - composition of the PSNI today is?

"R.G. Sands stood on principle," - What principle? The right to murder his fellow citizens?? Hey Observer take your blindfold off. Tell us all exactly what the result of the Irish Referendum was on use of weapons to gain political ends was.

The PIRA did not disband the Ulster B Specials - The forces of the Crown did that - The Official IRA stood back and applauded that.

Where in your post was the fact that 3500+ were killed and 30,000+ were maimed - Or do they not count in your reckoning you complete and utter Wanker.

By the bye convict ships from Ireland only sailed from Dublin and from Cork - So much for:

"In 1803 we sailed out to sea
Out from the sweet town of Derry"

Oh Observer, if you actually look into it after the second convoy of convicts to Australia, you actually stood a better chance of getting there as a convict than as a passenger.

30 years of suffering, bloodshed and grief, for something that was there for the taking right from the start, so much for the "cause". I have got nothing but complete and utter contempt for the likes of Bobby Sands and his ilk - achievements in life, absolutely nothing. I will give him exactly the same respect that the PIRA gave the civilian population of Northern Ireland when planting their bombs.
And if you, or anybody else can't live with that then tough shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:06 AM

This schoolyard style bullying is something to behold. Puts me in mind of something...oh yeah, British checkpoints in N. Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM

"bullying" ??

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Den's mum
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:18 AM

Poor Den.
Don't talk to those rough boys anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM

You're all about scoring points and innuendo aren't you Keith and you're still clinging on to your speculation. If I thought for a second that Mr. Maguire's life or the lives of his family had ever been threatened during the course of that election I would not still be having this discussion.

Discussing the MRF is entirely appropriate in this thread. I talked about events that shaped the life of Sands and many others. Hasn't this thread wandered enough off topic. You and others would prefer to paint Sands as some kind of sociopath without context. You and Teribus etc would prefer to dodge that particular subject I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:31 AM

My mother is dead, please refrain from using her name to try to get to me.

"Or do they not count in your reckoning you complete and utter Wanker", that doesn't sound like bullying to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

KA of H. Best if you condemn the crude comments made by Teribus above, otherwise it could be seen as your condoning his blaspheming of members.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

Teribus so there has been no changes from 1968, well Billy boy I live here and I am amazed to see so many Catholics-Nationalists in top jobs.
Basil Brooke who was Prime Minister here from after WW2 until the 1950s stated that he wouldn`t have one about the place, Catholics that is.

Today wonder of wonders we even have Catholic Lord Mayors, I could go on and tell you of the various seats of employment which were taboo for Catholics and are now filled by them, all of this over the past few years.

I remember reading the Protestant poet John Hewitt at Queens University in the 1930s, regretting the fact that two of his Catholic friends although academically brilliant would have to emigrate to fulfill their profession, he knew that discrimination was such that no learned Catholic had the slightest chance of employment, thankfully it is much improved to-day, we still have a bit to go to enjoy full citizenship, but we are getting there, there is no going back now.

Oh yes Teribus things have radically changed here, and there was no way that the Unionists would have made changes if they had still have had free rein to do whatever they pleased, I live here, I know, seeing is believing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

Den, my speculation is as valid as yours, and more than plausible.
IRA routinely used(use?) violence, threats and intimidation to achieve their ends, as did all the other paramilitary thugs on both sides.

You were a big man when crossing swords with poor, confused, Arran/Guitar/Tam, and you were belligerent enough with me until your arguments fell down.
Then you whinged that you meant somthing other than what you said,
and then you play the victim card like Republicans always do.
Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Alan, Terribus has been abused, lied about and slandered here for years.
Where were you then?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:51 AM

Tell you what is Pathetic Keith, your denial of factual evidence.
The bombs that killed 33 people in Dublin and Monaghan came from the British Army, according to the official inquiry into the atrocities.

The inquiry was given evidence that British soldiers supplied loyalist s with explosives that had been confiscated by the British army from the IRA and that these were used in the three bombs which exploded in Dublin during rush-hour traffic.

Maybe you will depute the word of Mr Justice Henry Barron the retired Irish judge who exposed this army you lick anally here day and night.

British authorities trailed their feet in supplying him vital information to the inquiry team, nothing new in that. The bombings were engineered by undercover British agents working inside loyalist paramilitary groups. It was a British Army bomb disposal expert that concluded this, and that the three car bombs in Dublin used crystallised ammonium nitrate. This technology was only known to the IRA at the time but was not mastered by loyalists for at least another six years. This somehow rings of your character Keith, Stir Teribus up, and he will throw the balls for you. PATHETIC.

Originally, both loyalist and republican terrorists made most of their bombs from ammonium nitrate fertiliser mixed with fuel oil, but in 1973 restrictions introduced on the nitrate content of fertiliser made this simple process impossible.

IRA members quickly developed a crystallisation technique that allowed them to extract nitrates from the new fertiliser, a method loyalists did not learn until the end of the 1970s.

The expert's 100-page report submitted to the inquiry states:

"Loyalist terrorist groups did not have the skills to undertake this operation in 1974. Further, I do not believe they have ever possessed them, otherwise a similarly complex operation would have been repeated."

It goes on: "The loyalist terrorists who undertook this operation were at least guided, and very likely directed, by somebody with considerable knowledge of terrorist bombing activities. The most likely sort of person who could have provided that guidance is an ammunition technical officer or ammunition technician with experience of intelligence processes and practices and with access to loyalist terrorists."

The bomb disposal expert's report estimates that only five people, all of them British soldiers, combined this level of access to seized IRA explosives and to loyalist terror groups. It describes another bomb in Monaghan, near the border with Northern Ireland, which detonated 90 minutes after the Dublin blasts and killed eight people, as of standard loyalist construction.

It did not use IRA explosives and is believed to have been built by a different loyalist unit.

The bomb disposal expert's report was commissioned
by Justice for the Forgotten, an Irish government-funded group for the victims of the atrocities, at Barron's request in 2001. However, it is understood further reports have been commissioned from the same expert into other explosions in the republic. These found two other loyalist bombs were probably composed of explosives seized from the IRA.

One of these was detonated at Kay's Tavern in Dundalk, a bar which was at the time used by republicans, on December 19, 1975 and claimed two lives. The second exploded on the same day outside a bar in Silverbridge, Co Armagh, and killed three people.

Last month Bertie Ahern, the taoiseach, told the Dail that he had raised the alleged non-cooperation of British authorities with Paul Murphy, the Northern Ireland secretary, who assured him that "further material would be forthcoming".

Ahern added: "The prime minister is fully aware that we want to see the maximum co-operation from the British authorities and the matter has been raised through the British-Irish secretariat and at the recent meeting of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference."

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:17 PM

Keith you're starting to mildly irritate me, that's never a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

Guest Alan, I think its fairly common knowledge who was behind the Dublin, Monaghan bombings. There will be more to come of this hopefully, later this year but then again we're still waiting for the results of the Bloody Sunday inquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM

My God but this thread is depressing.

Someone makes a film looking into the life of a man most of us know very little about and have no conception of what it would take to drive ourselves to the depth of what he put himself through. Do we watch it and then say "That's what he got wrong, or misunderstood or was deluded by"? No, we air once again our predjudices and dismiss anyone who does not go along with them as part of one or other gang of murdering bastards.

The only way to make this world a safer place is to learn the lessons of our past. Why do young men and women kill themselves and innocent shoppers, bus passengers, office workers? Is it really, as seems to be the suggestion of several posters here that they are are congenitaly "prats" and murderer, that they are born to be terrorists.

If we treat todays "terrorists" and the communities from which they draw support with "complete and utter contempt" will the world become a safer place?

I for one would like a little more insight into how this all works, but then again I have never chosen to be part of any organisation set up to kill "the enemy" so have never had to have a one eyed view of the world.

Finally I think it takes a really perverse view of the world to describe someone who takes part in an action where he has a strong chance of being shot, and then puts himself through the horror of starving to death as a coward, but another man who sits in an office sending hundreds of young men to risk death while slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent civilians as a hero.

Perhaps I'm missing something here. If I am I know I can only find it by looing where I did not look before, not by restating again and again my side righteous heroes, everyone else murdering bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

And finally the threat.
Completely true to form.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM

There are times that I respect the positions of members of the debate that run counter to mine. These are the times when there is at least respect. But lately, in several threads, the absolute denial of facts and the openly anti Irish/Irish American comments have shown the prejudice that oozes from them. In the former case there could be respect, in the latter, none. As to the combatants, I have great empathy for the families of all the combatants. I would try and explain why to the tin soldier, but he would just try and twist it.

One thing that sticks out. For all his rants, terrible T knows deep inside that the actions of the IRA soldiers will ultimately end in a united Ireland. Despite the wishes of the privileged Orange, they will ultimately be a part of a united land. In fact, the signs are already out there that they are realizing the hoax (known as the Orange card) that was perpetrated on them several generations ago by English capitalists. Average folks are coming to understand, slowly but surely, that they have far more in common interest than the differences over where and if they pray. There are many bricks in the Famine roads, and Bobby Sands and his brave comrades are some of the most important. Ultimately and surely though, the trek is being made on those self same roads. As the song that I recorded says, "every road we've ever walked was built by hungry hands".

Can't wait to see the film.

Le gach dea-mhéin,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:51 PM

And Robbie Wilson, once again you show great wisdom. One day I hope we can have a jar and talk, maybe sing a song or two.

Le gach dea-mhéin,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:05 PM

Congratulations Keith you got what you wanted. I sincerely hope that it makes your day, really I do. You goaded me and I reacted. I have never walked away from a fight in my life and I certainly don't intend to start any time soon. So your choice of words against me provoked a reaction, that coupled with the death of my mother early this year and the comment above...did you make the comment above? Anyway I don't think that I have shrunk to the level of calling people names during a discussion or to make a point. I don't like to see that happen. To my mind it is a form of bullying as I stated. I do my best usually, not to attack the poster. What I try to provide are facts as I did above. I don't like speculation. Anyway I'm going to cool down for a little bit and come back to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

It is not supposed to be a fight.
It should be an exchange of views among friends.
There is no denying facts Mick, but we draw different conclusions from them.
For instance we both accept that Ireland will be united, but you credit it to IRA and I and a majority of even Nationalist people in NI think that they just increased the hatreds and delayed the whole thing.
I really do think and believe that.
Can you not bear to accept that, and then tell me why you think I am wrong, and then allow me to counter that without emnity?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM

Another amazing statement from Keith, Sinn Fein got an overwhelming majority of the Nationalist vote, so how can you come out with this nonsense, Keith get your facts right.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

Not while the armed struggle was going on Ard.
The IRA would not have let Bobby Sands stand for election if there had been an alternative candidate for the Nationalists to vote for.
Even in that staunchly Republican place, they knew that a large number of the Nationalist people would never vote for an IRA man if there was any alternative at all.

I accept that Sinn Fein vote really took off when the violence stopped.
Is it not true that anti violence SDLP took the majority Nationalist vote before the cease fire?
Facts.
Perspectives.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM

Why did the people vote for Sinn Fein when the struggle ended, surely the Nationalist people would have seized the opportunity to get rid of them,this didn`t happen because the Nationalist people were never going back to another 50 years of Unionist discrimination and suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:19 AM

This chart allows you to compare the votes for the NI parties over the years.
The Sinn Fein vote did not beat the peaceful, Nationalist SDLP until 2001
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/election/electsum.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:21 AM

I should have added, organisation was the key for Sinn Fein, the SDLP were the established Nationalist Party, once the struggle ended the brilliant young people attached to Sinn Fein left the SDLP in their wake.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:27 AM

Yes I agree Ard.
It was just the abhorrence of the violent campaign and the linking with IRA that prevented so many Nationalist voting for them before.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:44 AM

Organisation and a brilliant team of young workers swept away a middle-class SDLP Party,given time, it was always going that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

Perhaps.
My interpretation would be that however organised, young and brilliant they were, while they were linked to IRA violence they would go nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM

Well they were not linked to The Sisters of Mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:51 AM

Not even the Provisional Sisters of Mercy?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:52 AM

Most people were afraid to vote for Sinn Fein not because of their association with the IRA but because the fact of the matter was if you did vote or openly support Sinn Fein you were seen as a radical or Republican sympathizer and your name would be placed on a list which eventually would end up in the hands of British agents to supply to loyalist death squads. Brian Nelson was instrumental in signing death warrents for a lot of people on flimsy or fabricated information.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

With around 200 000 SF voters in the 80s those death squads must have had their work cut out.
How did they know who voted?
What are your sources for that Den?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:16 AM

Fear is a great motivator. Sources? Brian Nelson? You're kidding right? Just google Brian Nelson British agent, should be enlightening. Or Force Reconnaissance Unit, Gordon Kerr. In fact there was a great Panorama programme about this not too long ago. Did you see it? I didn't unfortunately but I have the transcript, made for some very depressing reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Gotta get back to work here will check back this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:34 AM

I will try that Den.
And if there is nothing about targetting individual voters, you will retract right?
I will be off line by evening Canada.
Have a good weekend.
Catch up with you on Monday.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 04:26 AM

Den, I tried the top sites thrown up by the searches you suggested, but found no new stuff there; certainly nothing to support your assertion that voter intimidation was ever an issue.
This is worrying because I have read widely on the period of transition from armalite to ballot box and the winning of the Nationalist vote, and also never saw any reports of that as an issue.
Also, I have discussed this same topic here before many times with the likes of Divis, Ard, The Curator, and indeed yourself, and it has never been raised before.
It is as if you just made it up in order to deny an uncomfortable fact, i.e. that there was little Nationalist support for the IRA terror campaign.
Please give a credible source

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM

Keith, It is entirely hopeless to get through to you, if I went out on the street to-day and related what you have written above I would be laughed at.
You are wrong there was more support among the nationalist people for the IRA than the SDLP, the followers of Sinn Fein abstained in large numbers throughout the struggle.
There was no way that Sinn Fein could organise, not with incessant pressure from the Brits, the candidates and their supporters that did attempt to stand were harassed at every juncture.

The difference was very much apparent when the ceasefire was arrived at, for the simple reason likely candidates were now able to conduct their canvassing without the Brits confronting them at every turn in the road.

Take note of the many Sinn Fein candidates that stood throughout the six counties and also take note of the many Sinn Fein successes, people who never voted for years came out to vote foe their Sinn Fein nominees.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 09:13 AM

Ard, You say,"the followers of Sinn Fein abstained in large numbers throughout the struggle."

Please explain why a Sinn Fein supporter would abstain from voting for their Sinn Fein candidate.

I accept that they did abstain, as witness the surge in votes when the violence stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

Keith could you possibly provide proof that anyone in the North of Ireland either felt pressurised to vote for Sinn Fein prior to the ending of the war. You seem to make out that Northern nationalists either received a knock at their door from a masked man or received threats of intimation. That is a fairly wild allegation to state without proof.

Maybe your energies would be better spent exploring why the government of your beloved country stood back and permitted their unionist colleagues in Stormont to deny the nationalist population in of the North of Ireland a voice or vote for many years. You seem to prefer to focus on hogwash statements which aren't backed up with hard facts.
Tell me Keith, what's your opinion on a part of the government of the United Kingdom in denying a section of their subjects the right of a vote ?

Your interest in the affairs of the North of Ireland appear to be a little weighted to the righteous rule of Britain and their unblemished record of human rights towards nationalists and followers of the Cathoilc faith. There may have been a large majority of the population in favour of British rule, but there was also a sizeable number who only wished to follow the faith they were born into and in doing so faced discrimination and bigotry in every aspect of their daily life for doing so.

Are you not aware of this ? Are you saying that every inhabitant of the North of Ireland was a republican and deserved to be deal with accordingly ?   

By the time we had reached the 1970's, the treatment of the nationalist community in the North of Ireland by Britain and their henchmen in Stormont proved the strongest recruitment drive for entry into republican groups by young men who were not going to roll over and lay down.

You are no doubt aware Keith of injustices throughout the world today by corrupt governments. Are you saying the people of these countries should accept the unacceptable ?

Keith, let's become realistic for a moment. You are British and a strong supporter of British policy throughout the world over several hundreds of years. You will never accept that Britain created the problems in Ireland, neither will you accept that the basic human right of any nation to resist reform against their faith, right to their own lands and traditions.

Keith you seem to draw lines in the sand when it comes to Irish/British history with fleeting statements against the Provisional IRA and an ignorance as to why the came into being. You often say that their requests would have been delivered in time without an armed struggle, rights had been denied for eight hundred years, how could you possibly know they were just around the corner? Can you honestly and truthfully provide proof of this ? No you can't. Stormont was a stone wall unionist regime who despised the Catholic church and the nationalist community and would never have embraced equality or gave a voice to a Catholic.

Well the Nationalist/Republican/Catholic people of the North of Ireland have a determination that you will never understand or comprehend. Your GOC's on the ground did, as did the failed British Secataries on State. Keith, Britain could never have broken the spirit of the Irish people. Accept that and reconsider your view of repression in Ireland for over 800 years through one half opened eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:16 AM

Observer, is it because you cannot challenge any of my actual views, that you make up a load that I have never held, and attack me for them?
I challenge and defy you to produce one of my posts that support anything in your attack on me.

You open with this. Badly written but the meaning is clear.
"Keith could you possibly provide proof that anyone in the North of Ireland either felt pressurised to vote for Sinn Fein prior to the ending of the war. You seem to make out that Northern nationalists either received a knock at their door from a masked man or received threats of intimation. That is a fairly wild allegation to state without proof. "
Observer, if you observed any of my last few posts, you would see that I have been challenging the idea that voter intimidation was an issue at all, and demanding proof from others.

Twats like you just damage your own cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

Thank you Keith. Your refusal to accept that the British government supported gerrymandering in the North of Ireland once again exposes you as a bigot.

Your refusal to acknowledge that the British occupation of Ireland was both morally wrong and unjustified exposes you as simply thick.

Throughout this thread you have written the greatest load of horseshite that I have ever read in my entire life. Irish mudcatters have not only exposed your ignorance of Irish history, but the statements you continue to make lack proof or substance.

You continue to dig a hole for yourself and it's actually becoming quiet humorous (keep it up).

Republicans are now in government and enjoy strong support within the community. Many of those in positions of power were freedom fighters during the war. Political prisoners were also released from British goals.

The wealth and lavish lifestyles enjoyed by overpaid prison staff and members of the UDR and RUC are long since over. Moss now grows over the headstones of those who once came to Ireland to repress the Irish nation. Stop sucking on that lemon Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

without wishing to disrespect either party - do you think there is a point at which you might achieve mutual respect.

Maybe that's the point at which to start, rather than your differences of opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,PriceWise
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

This attack on the Irish by K A of H reminds me of Denis Healey's famous quip, "It is like being savaged by a dead sheep". It is clear that K A of H hasn't a clue about Ireland or what he's talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

The IRA`s part in the death of cock robin and also coming soon the IRA and the death of Jesse James--- by Keith of Hertford

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:41 PM

I posted earlier here, I think. Couldn't be bothered to trawl back through all that negativity to be honest. Point I want to make now, if I didn't make it before, is that the bloody thing is over all bar the shouting. The violence seems almost at an end. The army are all but moved out. The republicans have gained huge support. Ireland may well be united soon. The question is who is going to be left with the legacy of the screwed up bit in the top right corner? The English don't want it any more. Nor, apparantly, do the rest of Ireland. Having seen how the reunification of Germany caused no end of political and financial problems I don't blame them one bit.

It seems to me that by deliberatley raising and reraising these issues some people seem to be unhappy that the fight is over. They want it to carry on. Why can't you all just accept that the past is in the past and while we can learn from it, it should realy stay where it is.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:55 PM

WLD, I can and do respect Observers views, but not his right to make up lies about me.
Shamelessly, he has ignored my complaint and just made up more!
Observe this Observer.
I have never denied gerrymandaring, though I would say that the British turned a blind eye rather than supported it. It had no consequence here.
I do accept that the invasion and occupation was "morally wrong and unjustified" by modern standards, but not by the standards of those medieval times. All countries did it and worse in those far off centuries. Move on.
USA stole a hundred irelands just in the 19th Century which is why I will take no historical moralising from Big Mick!
I recognise and celebrate with you the achievements of the Nationalist people. I am just saddened that, but for the bloody carnage of the IRA terror campaign, it could have been achieved earlier and the people spared years of misery and grief.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:58 PM

Pricewise, "It is clear that K A of H hasn't a clue about Ireland or what he's talking about."

Please be specific. Give your best example of my cluelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:38 PM

Very nice, Keith. What you just did is proved that you are guilty of the very same thing you accuse others of. In my last post, I almost added a para that suggested you not raise the point of what the USA did with the native peoples. But I didn't because I knew you would raise it, and do so after you complained that folks put words in you mouth. Now, if you would be so kind, would you point out anywhere that I raised that point? You will not be able to, as I also have great empathy with native peoples everywhere who are displaced by others from their ancestral lands. I find great irony in the Irish that came to this country and ended up fighting in the various "Indian" wars. But there is a distinct difference in my country and yours. For the most part, your country continues to try and cover up and justify the use of the taxpayer supported armed forces to collude with the loyalists who are intent on keeping a people separated from themselves. Your government has been shown to be complicit in the murders of civil rights activists. There have been examples of this in my country, as well, but we put an end to it and have recognized the sovereign rights of native peoples. I suggest you do the same. We have much to do here, but we are well on the road.

But ..... that is a topic for a new thread, and I won't hijack this one. But I will point out that you are guilty of exactly what you accuse others of. You will not find any defense of my country's actions in this regard by me. Further more, it is not my issue. My issue has to do with my views on the actions of your government in my ancestral homeland. Despite your, and Terrible T's, attempt to act like I am not entitled to these views. let me assure that this is a pretty weak show of intellect. I need not live in a country to comment on its politics and actions, as many of you Brits demonstrate by your constant carping about what is wrong with the US. And my ties to Ireland, by virtue of blood, study, training, and celebration of its customs and musical heritage, enhance my absolute right to do so.

Mick