BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

Well said Big Mick. Sadly it will be lost on the guy. His constant cry about the retaliatory actions of republicans against their suppressors would put anyone to sleep.

Possibly he could address the actions of trigger happy British soldiers against unarmed men, women and children killed by rubber,plastic and FMJ rounds. I don't think I need to post their names here. Maybe he could address the issue of British collusion with loyalists ?

Two sides to every coin Keith. We heard your views many times on one side, now enlighten us to your views on the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:09 AM

Big Mick, you did raise the issue of stealing lands.
On 4th June you said " Do you not consider land an asset? It was stripped from the hands of the Irish, and given to transplanted peoples. "

When I spoke of USA taking a hundred Irelands (guesstimate)in 19th Century I was not thinking of the lands taken from Native Americans but from the poor Catholic country next door.
And I do not judge USA. In those days conquest was not seen as immoral. Britain also took lands in 19th C , although we did give them all back in 20th C.
I just ask that you acknowledge your more recent historical "crimes" when declaiming against Britain's more ancient ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:17 AM

Observer, I have addressed the issue you refer to many times.
Here for instance;
"Date: 29 May 06 - 07:54 AM

Sweeney,
The government had little choice but use the army with the level of violence threatening civil war.
They could not be withdrawn until IRA belatedly realised its terror was counter productive.
The British army is better than others but Akeneaton and Ardmhacha are right that soldiers make bad policemen.

I admitted that the army killed innocents but I have 3 caveats.

1 Last year an ex ira man, overcome by guilt, admitted having killed a child in a botched attempt to shoot a soldier.
IRA had lied about this and blamed it on the army.
How many more such cases?

2 We (RIGHTLY) expect high standards of restraint from our law keepers.
Other countries would not be shocked if car thieves crashing through a check point were shot at.

3 Republican paramilitaries killed far more innocents than the army.
Many hundreds more innocent deaths on their hands. "

Try to be more observant .

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:25 AM

Observer, I challenged and defied you to produce one post of mine that justified any one of the slanders against me in your two 9thJune posts.
You ignored my reasonable request and just carried on posting.
I take your silence as an admission that you completely misjudged me.
Or have you got anything?
Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:29 AM

Den, you promised days ago to come back and justify your intimidation argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:41 AM

What you ARE not really facing up to though Keith is that Sands and his compatriots did manage to defeat a very ruthless enemy in the shape of the Thatcher government - and really that was no mean achievement.

As Arthur Scargill will tell you, the Thatcher element really had no scruple about tearing up the democratic rulebook when it wanted to defeat an enemy. And they would lie - in an unprincipled and unprecedented manner for their own short term gain. For example I can remember Norman Tebbit coming on TV in the miners' strike and saying that not a single English miner would lose his job. And the snotty slimey voiced BBC interviewer saying, so why are you and your followers pursuing this illegal strike Mr Scargill?

At least Sinn Fein didn't go the way of the British mining industry and all the ancillary industries attached to it. In war, the first rule is that you win. And you can argue with Sands and his methods, (and I will personally say the way SF supporters have conducted this debate and abused you has been sickening) but at least SF didn't get pissed about and defeated like the NUM.

And that was an achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:08 AM

WLD, i will never accept that an elected government be defeated by bomb and gun.
There is always a better way.
This is from the Cain site about the situation BEFORE Thatcher.
The way was already clear for all the achievements that have been described.
" NICRA. Local government was reformed and even if the present boundaries and powers have not been subject to detailed investigation, the general principles of local government are acceptable - or would be acceptable if the system were to operate in the manner in which it was intended, that is with the existence of a regional parliament. Housing was taken from local r councils and placed in the hands of a central body. Although this too is far from perfect it is a major step forward in the struggle for democracy. Universal adult franchise is now applied in all elections in Northern Ireland and proportional representation is used for all elections except those to Westminster. The Ombudsman exists and it is an offence to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of religion. The Fair Employment Act and the Sex Discrimination Act are additional legislative victories.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM

This is what the same site says of IRA.
This is for those who say I am out of touch with NI residents.

"The final group which has played such a major part in the past 10 years is the IRA. The Provisionals were the men who first broke the civil rights pledge of no talks until Internment ends. Their sporadic sectarian war against Protestants and their campaign of murder against civilians has been one of the greatest denials of civil and human rights in recent Irish history. Fuelled initially by Fianna Fail money they rocketed across the Irish political scene leaving death and destruction, reactionary politics and repressive legislation in their wake, and their present orbit is powered by the continuing sectarianism generated by their own actions. Their production line in martyrs and heroes has provided the raison d'etre for the continuation of their campaign and the living and dead bodies of their members which lie scattered across the prisons and cemeteries of Ireland are mute testimony to the futility of their actions. They did not want British rights. They wanted Irish rights. Their actions have ensured that they now have none of the rights of either nationality, and the rest of us must suffer accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:17 AM

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/crights/nicra/nicra786.htm
Link for above quotes.
It is actually an NICRA document.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:39 AM

what a dickhead he was good riddincae to bad rubbish and the was no war in Northern Ireland because I can't remember Westminster declearing war on British soil.

it was loylist and republican murderers killing innocent men, women and children that where at so called war, the terrorists on both sides are just muderers.

but that is the way I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:41 AM

but then I said all this before and was called a bigot by someone who doesn't know me

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:45 AM

Arran/Guitar/Goatfell/Tam
Please stop changing your name.
You are entitled to your opinions, but try to be nice with it.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

Yes, but can't you see that Thatcher sort of crystallised the situation? Her manner and rhetoric and cavalier way with the democratic process made the choices very stark. and this is really what gave SF the window of opportunity.

A nice man like John Hume was always just going to get kicked in the knackers and his wallet nicked by Thatcher. Democratic process, public service, even intelligence were largly forbidden areas in the world of Thatcher. Look what she did with Hesseltine, John MacGregor and Jim prior. Only lickspittles like Lawson and Baker were her sort of people. Or Tebbit - Buckingham to her Richard III.

In truth she was playing ducks and drakes with the democratic process even before she was elected - using the intelligence services of the country in much the same way Richard Nixon got impeached for. The Spycatcher revelations showed that. With SF she came up against a group that was quite as uninterested in democratic niceties as she was.

The economy of means with which SF worked would have delighted Thomas Cromwell and any practitioner of realpolitik. Credit where its due, for godsake.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:13 AM

I was determined not to post back to this thread as what I see are a lot of people shouting and no-one listening.

Mick said: "For the most part, your country continues to try and cover up and justify the use of the taxpayer supported armed forces to collude with the loyalists who are intent on keeping a people separated from themselves."

This statement implies ordinary UK taxpayers are actively supporting the criminal activities of the UK Government by giving up their taxes for this very purpose. Well, that's a sweeping generalisation, and a look back at Ken Loach's comments might indicate not every 'Brit' is so blinkered and ignorant of the facts as the more stereotyped image might indicate.

The problem here is at the end of the day is the whole situation is very complex and for the peoples of Ireland and the UK the lines can be blurred and confusing, especially for those of us who have lived with the results of the conflict and suffered it's effects without knowing fully what the reasons for the war were.

I've known people involved in both sides this conflict and it soon becomes clear as you talk to them there is a fundamental difference in their understanding of what the conflict was about and why it was being fought. I've known British Army soldiers shot in a gunfight with the IRA, one man who was a member of the IRA left and joined Loyalist group and since has spent his life on the run for fear of revenge attacks but by his own admittance had seen and done some questionable things for both sides. Then of course people I've met here like Divis for whom I have a lot of respect and like Ard told their side of the story from where it was actually happening, on the ground, for real in their home.

As a 'Brit', I spent my entire youth as the subject of an intense and one-sided propaganda campaign conducted by the British Government. When it's your only source of information (no internet etc), it's difficult not to be swayed by the endless media bombardment telling you that we're right and they're wrong, and when they start pulling the bodies out of pubs a few miles up the road from your house and every one is shitting themselves about going shopping it becomes difficult to gain a perspective.

So much blood spilt, so much suffering. Look at us bickering on this thread, perpetuating the myths and prejudices that have allowed both sides to slaughter innocents and keep alive old animosities long after they should have been buried. If odious types like the Chuckle Brothers can shake hands and get down to managing the situation and start on the long and arduous road taking the violence and bitterness out of the equation, then so must we all. This film is a part of that process, and it should be celebrated for that reason.

The winners in the peace process will be the innocents of Ireland and the UK who don't get torn apart by bombs or suffer the indignities of discrimination or intimidation from either side. Time for us on these Islands to revel in our common heritage - the folly of Empire is behind us and the war is over. Let's get back to being ourselves, because we are all good people and we have always go on so well on a personal level, even in the darkest days.

Now, who's for a tune?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:17 AM

Now what about collusion Keith. The British army and the police and in the North of Ireland helped loyalist paramilitaries to murder Catholics. Are you saying that Sir John Stevens got it wrong Keith ?

The Metropolitan Police Commissioner's report into collusion between the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries also found that military intelligence in the North of Ireland helped to prolong the Troubles, not the IRA as dimwit Keith seems to think.


Members of the RUC and Army colluded with the largest loyalist paramilitary group, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), to murder Catholics.


Keith Sir John found that actions or omissions by security forces led to deaths of innocent people. Murders of solicitor Pat Finucane and student Adam Lambert could have been prevented. Collusion with loyalist murder gangs in both murders of Pat Finucane and Adam Lambert.Three official inquiries wilfully obstructed and misled.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT COLLUSION IS KEITH ?
Wilful failure to keep records
Absence of accountability
Withholding intelligence and evidence
Agents involved in murder and working alongside Loyalist murder gangs.

I repeat, You are a bigot Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:18 AM

the reason why I change my mudcat name is after a while I get fed up with it and so I try some new name for a change, mind you I quite like the name Goatfell, after a while I get quite bored with my mudcat name and then I change it or as I say for me anyway it becomes boring.

it's like wearing the same sort of clothes for the rest of your life

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM

'You are a bigot Keith. '

and you calling folks names adds little to the gaiety of nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Fairbourogh
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:11 AM

Bottom line here is that a film was made about a hero of the Irish people and it will be screened worldwide and will expose Britain as scumballs. LIVE WITH IT.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 06:17 AM

Observer, we have had threads on collusion.
Reopen one or start a new one.
It is out of place here.
Again I challenge and defy you to produce one bigoted statement from me.
Some hope.
I am surprised that a "Guest" is allowed to behave like you and not be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM

Keith, You come onto this site to defend the indefensible. The actions of the British army in the North of Ireland was one of shame, murder and collusion. Then you launch attack after attack on those groups who took up arms against them.

This thread is about a film Keith. A film which tells the story of the strength and conviction of one man and the determination of the Irish people against a tyrant nation.

Keep it up Keith, the hole your digging for yourself is getting bigger.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:11 AM

Wonderful piece of rhetoric there, GUEST,Fairbourogh.

Hero of the Irish people was he? Which ones? Ian Paisley is an Irish person isn't he? I am sure he has posters of Mr Sands on his bedroom walls...

Will expose Britain as scumballs? Britain is a concept only and as such it is singular. How can a singular concept be multiple balls of scum? Or do you mean that all British subjects are scumballs? British subjects like, oh, let me see, Gerry Adams?

Nice to see a concise, well thought out piece of logic.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:16 AM

and will expose Britain as scumballs

I am looking forward to seeing this film. From all the reviews, reports etc. there is nothing to indicate that that was the purpose of the film or that that is what it will do and I have read a lot of what has been written about the film. I am British and I would be the first person to acknowledge that the British government left a lot to be desired and should have been more flexible. However, I am not willing to listen to Britain being labelled scumballs.

This film looks at the HUMANITY of the situation. Read what Steve McQueen has to say about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM

Observer
That last attack on the IRA was not from me.
It was from the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association.
But what did they know?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:26 AM

Britan will be exposed as scumbags, well Bobby Sands was British because Northern Ireland is a part of Britain, though some og them don't think so, and some of them post here on the mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: goatfell
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM

and will expose Britain as scumballs


and if you come from Northern Ireland then you too are a scumball because you too are British

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:12 PM

Shit! What will we do when we've all been exposed as scumballs. Possibly there will be mass suicides - thousands of people jumping over the white cliffs of Dover, cos they can't face life exposed as a scumball.

There will be Sun reporters outside all our houses, shouting through the letterbox, We know you're in there Mr Scumball. tell us your side of the story......Gerry Adams says you're a drunken brute and you used your fists on him, and forced him to do it with a rubber bullet.......

I had my fun with bearded politician and bikini clad Ian Paisley in night of shame, says love rat brit! Now I'm off!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:51 AM

"The actions of the British army in the North of Ireland was one of shame, murder and collusion."

That one I particularly liked coming from someone defending the actions of the "bold" PIRA - Illustrates perfectly their balance and perspective.

I would love to hear this guys take on the thousands of completely innocent civilian lives lost, the vast majority of that number being the very people they claimed to be "protecting", along with the 30,000 people maimed and injured. Throughout the period of this so called epic struggle of which Sands was a willing participant, not one instance can be found or put forward where a member of any paramilitary group in Northern Ireland gave their lives in defence of a member of the civilian population - I discount of course PIRA bombers who managed to blow themselves up either making or transporting their bombs.

Sands was a shoddy little terrorist, who did exactly as his "masters" bade him to do, if that meant planting bombs in shopping centres that he probably did and would have done, if it meant committing acts of murder he probably did and would have done, if it had meant him carrying out punishment beatings and knee-cappings he probably did and would have done - After all as a member of the PIRA, which he undoubtedly was, as a "Volounteer" what choice would he have?

But please do not expect me to show him or any other member of any other Northern Ireland paramilitary organisation any respect or admiration.

On the subject of collusion, who was it the Official IRA and the PIRA colluded with to get rid of that nuisance organisation called the INLA? Who was it that factions within the INLA colluded with to resolve their squalid little internal tiffs and get back at the PIRA?

Oh as to the British Army having withdrawn from Northern Ireland - There twice the number of troops in Northern Ireland than there are in Afghanistan and six times the number in Northern Ireland than we have in Iraq - or at least there were last time I checked. They have every right to be there it is after all part of the United Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:21 AM

okay, we won't expect YOU to show any respect for a guy some people have decided to idolise as a hero of Irish patriotism.

However you can't really be surprised if reciprocally, they show no respect for the ikons you hold close to your heart, Teribus.

As you see - its quite possible to characterise anybody who has taken part in military action as some sort of thug. People regularly say just as nasty things about the British army as you have just said about Bobby Sands and the IRA.

Someone somewhere though is going to have to break the cycle and start showing some respect for others beliefs. Otherwise we will only ever have bitterness and aggression between us.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 03:20 AM

I am shocked that you people think that disability abuse is still acceptable in this society.
Are you still living in the Dark Ages?
(Well, obviously some of you are, but please. You will be planting settlers in our back yards next.)

We sufferers from Acute Residual Scrotal Exudation Syndrome, (A.R.S.E.S.) are tired of our painful and disabling condition being treated as a joke or a term of abuse.
We will not stand for it, (although we have to stand for most things).
Poking fun at A.R.S.E.S must stop.
We A.R.S.E.S. will not be poked.

(And yes, that is what the A stands for.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:18 AM

Another award winning film that could provide an interesting discussion. Somehow I don't think it will provide as much reaction from some quarters. Even though it is more up to date and possibly more relevant.

Cheers

dave

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Egan
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:18 AM

Did any of you see the Polish fans in Euro 2008 singing "The British Three Lions" song last night.I Really enjoyed it. One Polish fan said " This is the great game England brought to the world and they can´t even make it here,so we thought we would remind them". It´s great to see all these nations enjoying the game. If England had reached this stage, it would be a shambles by now as their support thugs (a lot wear British army uniforms when not on the terraces) would have wrecked a town or killed someone by now.

These thick football thugs always sing "We won the war" when in central Europe. Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not a large country to the left of us that saved Britians ass ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:39 AM

I believe they eventually showed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:47 AM

Soldier football fans.
A rarity for soldiers to attend matches I think.
But I expect that you have some shred of evidence you can put before us.
You wouldn't make up lies about Britain would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:54 AM

Perhaps you mean this one?

Manchester football riot cop: Hero soldier saved me from mob
By Andy Rudd 16/05/2008

Pc Mick Regan


The Manchester football riot cop who survived the mob
Gordon Brown warns riots have put England's 2018 World Cup bid at risk
More Top Stories
Have your say on What are you talking about? in our Forums
News picturesRelated Tags
glasgow rangers, mick regan, riots, uefa cup final


(What's this?)The policeman attacked by rioting Glasgow Rangers fans has spoken about the moment he was brutally kicked and stamped on by the 20-strong mob - and thanked the soldier who saved his life.

Pc Mick Regan, a married of father-of-two, was one of six officers caught on CCTV retreating through Manchester city centre from around 200 football fans as they threw missiles of bottles, cans and rubbish at them.

The officer, who suffered bruising to both arms, sore ribs and a puncture wound to the elbow, has revealed he owes his life to a brave Army medic who came to his rescue.

"One of them shouted at me saying 'I'm British Army, I'm a medic'," said Pc Regan.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:24 AM

Some people think that Bobby Sands was a hero and I don't have a problem with that - they are entitled to their opinion. Steve McQueen did address the issue of whether or not the film portrayed Bobby Sands in this way, but I cannot find the report where I read it to make a link. It has been made clear that the purpose of the film was not to show anybody as a hero. It is possible to find plenty of reports about the film which indicate what Steve McQueen was trying to achieve.

On a previous thread when it was mentioned that one of the ideas for the site of the maze prison was a supermarket I indicated that I felt that that was not appropriate. Personally I see Bobby Sands as one of the many people on both sides who suffered at that time. He was a young man with a young son and I imagine those last 6 weeks were absolute hell; it is very sad.

However, I do object to this slagging off of the British army and British people in general. Have a go at the British government by all means but British soldiers and their families suffered too, in a lot of cases soldiers were very brave and responsible in their actions.

Nothing in this thread has put me off wanting to see this film.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

"I would love to hear this guys take on the thousands of completely innocent civilian lives lost, the vast majority of that number being the very people they claimed to be "protecting", along with the 30,000 people maimed and injured."

Sorry, is this the British Army in Iraq and Afghanistan you're talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

Yep Stig, the very same British Army that is serving in Iraq as part of the MNF at the request of the duly elected, duly constituted, internationally recognised Government of Iraq and under the terms of a duly authorised United Nations Security Council Mandate. The very same British Army that is serving in Afghanistan as part of ISAF at the request of the duly elected, duly constituted, internationally recognised Government of Afghanistan and under the terms of a duly authorised United Nations Security Council Mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:24 PM

Oh, almost forgot Stigweard, care to give us your run down on what the result would have been if that British Army and the Emergency Services hadn't been there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Friday_(1972)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

I'm surprised no-one has commented on the link I posted.

Not!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

Actually, Dave, you are one of those whose opinions I have great respect for. I immediately went to your link, and determined that I will look this one up. Thanks for the link. Abu Ghraib, and the scapegoating of the young soldiers ranks right up there with My Lai for this American. I don't condone the actions, but as a vet I understand how living in that system puts great pressure on young soldiers to go along and get along. That, in my mind is exactly what many Brit soldiers face in the North of Ireland. The real problem lies in administrations, and senior officers, that are perfectly willing to let, and even encourage quietly, to commit acts that are immoral or illegal, and then hide behind the written rules and systems and say they never authorized it. These lower ranking soldiers (often in life or death situations) then act on the signals they have received, and when the boot comes down, can't find a soul to take the heat with them. I know this is hard for those that are not "in the moment" to understand, but combat vets know what I am speaking of.

But..... yes I did go to your link.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

Mick, did you intend to say "Brit soldiers face..." ?
It is all in the past now.
At last.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:09 AM

Thanks Mick - And a very sensible reaction if I may say so. As I am sure you know I do not condone the actions of my government in the North of Ireland either. But I will defend the ordinary people of this land, including the defenders of our peace, against the type of blinkered racism that has been portrayed over and over again on this thread.

If only some other people would accept that Britain is not 'scumbags', that the soldiers serving in Ireland are just doing what they are told and that in a war attrocities are committed on both sides, the world would be a lot happier.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 03:36 AM

Mick, I also have respect for Dave's opinions.
You could not put a ciggy paper between us.
I also respect your opinions, and actually share all of them, except
that I do not believe that paramilitaries helped bring about reform
in N.I.
(On that my opinion is the same as N.I.Civil Rights Association.)
That is the only difference between us Mick.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:44 AM

You could take issue with many people who have been singled out for canonisation, even deification - ask Salman Rushdie.

Look at the hot water I get into on Mudcat, bcause it is self evident to me that half the traditional folksongs aren't worth saving and would have been better left in the library or the dustbin. (We have tradition in this country like some houses have rats.) Songs get selected for reverence - not just people. Dull unmemorable ones.

Nevertheless, at some point, you have to take aboard the fact that this is the altar some people have chosen to worship at. Your relationship is unlikely to progress until you accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:29 AM

"You could not put a ciggy paper between us" When did Dave EVER support British soldiers murdering women and children with plastic bullets or turn a blind eye to British soldiers working with loyalists to kill nationalists ? Christ I can´t believe you just said that Keith. Dave is a gentleman.

As for Teribus, well we all tend to give him a fools pardon as he is just a crackpot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:05 AM

Exactly.
He never did, and neither do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM

No.
Enough of being polite.
I say you are a LIAR Guest Observer.
I defy you to find a single post of mine to justify a word of that vicious unprovoked attack on my character.
So called Guests should not be allowed to do that to Mudcat members on our own forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

Well, thank you for the compliment, Observer, but before we go any further down the road of who's views are nearer to whom's I had better make my position quite clear.

1. I am an Englishman of Polish/Russian/English/Welsh descent. Brought up Russian Orthodox and Catholic and now very critical of organised religions of all types but particularly the extemist ones. I am also quite cosmopolitan in outlook with many friends of different nationalities and religions. I spend as much time as I can travelling both inside and outside this nations boundries.

2. I do not and will never support the annexing of anyone elses lands or goods by force. Nor will I ever support any government or organisation that believes it can command anyone elses respect by force.

3. I am of the fervent belief that anyone who believes that they can run a country must be disqualified from doing so instantly on the grounds of diminished responsibilty.

4. I know with certainlty that the ordinary people of England, Ireland, the USA and all other countries of the world are the same. Non are any better or worse than the others.

5. Because of number 4 above and because the ordinary soldier on the ground is drawn from ordinary people like you or I then the soldiers from all sides are the same as well. They are neither saints nor sinners. It is their paymasters who have most to answer for.

6. I respect anyone and everyone until they do something that looses that respect. Most people on here, including Keith, Observer, Mick and a host of others have never done anything to loose that respect. A few have shown that they warrant no respect at all in their first few words.

7. One of the easiest ways to loose my respect is to make blatant racist remarks about the 'British'. Whoever they are. Or anyone else for that matter. I am always at a loss as to why the Mudcat sems to think that it is OK to use he term 'British scumbags' but will not tollerate 'thick Irish', 'tight Jews' or 'lazy Blacks'. Non of them should be allowed as far as I am concerned.

8. I agree with the pro-republican supporters here who state that something did need to be done to rid Ireland of British rule. I disagree with violent way it was achieved but accept that, at the time, people felt it was the only answer. I agree with the posters who feel that once the violence had started something had to be done to protect the integrity of law. I disagree with the violent way that was done as well but, again, at the time people felt it was the only answer.

9. I will not dismiss someone as a fool or crackpot just because they disagree with my ideas. If their arguments are put over in sensible, logical and reasonable manner, whether I agree with them or not, they will be treated with respect.

10. I keep saying, and will continue to do so, it is over now. It should be an open book for our children to learn from but why on earth the past be dragged over the coals so often and, as is the case here, so viciously?

There is far more too it than that of course. There are various shades of grey in between those black and white words but at least now everyone should know what my opinions realy are. Well, as much as I do anyway...

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

Yes, not a ciggy paper there.
Observer, you also called me a bigot, but when challenged could not find one statement of mine to justify it.
Lies and slander.
Why is this person allowed to post here?
Members have been barred for less.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

400!