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personent hodie - help with Latin

GUEST,leeneia 31 Dec 07 - 12:06 AM
katlaughing 31 Dec 07 - 12:27 AM
katlaughing 31 Dec 07 - 12:30 AM
masato sakurai 31 Dec 07 - 01:13 AM
RTim 31 Dec 07 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,leeneia 31 Dec 07 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Marje (cookieless) 31 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,leeneia 01 Jan 08 - 01:05 AM
FreddyHeadey 20 Dec 17 - 02:50 PM
DaveRo 20 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM
FreddyHeadey 21 Dec 17 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,Don Day 24 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM
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Subject: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:06 AM

This song has intrigued me for a long time. It appeared in a collection called 'Piae Cantiones' which appeared in 1582 but contained music much older than that. [That collection provided the tune we now know as 'Good King Wenceslas.]

We are having a Three Kings party on Jan 1, and I would like to do Personent Hodie then. I would appreciate it if any Latin scholars would translate the words. Here they are:


1. Personent hodie
Voces puerulae,
Laudantes iucunde
Qui nobis est natus,
Summo Deo datus,
Et de virgineo
Ventre procreatus.

2. In mundo nascitur;
Pannis involvitur;
Praesepi ponitur
Stabulo brutorum
Rector supernorum;
Perdidit spolia
Princeps Infernorum.

3. Magi tres venerunt;
Munera offerunt;
Parvulum inquirunt,
Stellulam sequendo,
Ipsum adorando,
Aurum, thus et myrrham
Ei offerendo.

4. Omnes clericuli,
Pariter pueri,
Cantent ut angeli:
'Advenisti mundo:
Laudes tibi fundo
Ideo: Gloria
In excelsis Deo'.

In the first verse we see a virgin. In the second a manger [presepi] and a stable for brutes. The third has the three Magi. But the fourth - it seems to be saying something about all clericals. Hmmm!


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:27 AM

There are several translations on THIS PAGE.

It's one of my very favourite tunes!


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:30 AM

Meant to add: there is a song with English words and the same tune on Telynor's Off the Beaten Track Christmas CD. There is a small sound sample there. (Mudcatter John P. was part of Telynor.)


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:13 AM

Piae Cantiones (facsimiles) is here. "Personent hodie" is on pp. 23-24.


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: RTim
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:07 AM

I have this from the Oxford Book of Carols - Tim Radford.

***************************************

THE BOYS CAROL - (Personent Hodie)

Sing aloud, on this day, Children all
Raise the lay, cheerfully we & they
Hasten to adore thee, sent from highest glory
For us born, born, born x 2
For us born on this morn, of the Virgin Mary

Now a child he is born swathling bands him adorn
Manger bed heÕll not scorn, Ox & ass are near him
We as Lord revere him
And the vain. vain, vain x 2
And the vain powers of hell,
Spoiled of prey now fear him.

From the far Orient, guiding star
Wise men sent, Him to seek
There intent, Lord of all creation
Kneel in adoration.
Gifts of gold, gold, gold x 2
Gifts of gold, frankincence
Myrrh for their oblation.

All must join him in praise,
men & boys voices raised,
On this day of all days,
Angels voices ringing, Christmas tidings bringing.
Join we all, all, all x 2
Join we all Gloria In Excelsis singing.

Piae Cantiones 1582
Words & Trans. Oxford Book of Carols.


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:37 AM

I appreciate those links, but the translations so far are versified and metric. As an amateur linguist, I'd like to know exactly what the Latin is saying, so I can learn new words and see connections.

I'm going to study the page of facsimiles soon. Right now, the DH is standing first on one foot, then on the other, eager to go for breakfast.


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,Marje (cookieless)
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM

Here's a site with a more literal translation, which seems to be quite accurate as far as I can tell. I think you should be able to match this up with the English text.

http://www.sbarnabas.org.uk/pdf%20files/STBARNBOOK.pdf

Marje
(now I must go in search of my cookie...)


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:05 AM

Thanks, marje. That looks like just the thing!

Fireworks are going off everywhere because you provided the translation. No, wait - it's twelve o'clock on Dec 31st.

That collection, Piae Cantiones, certainly provided a lot of well-known songs. I see that 'From the Father's Love Begotten,' which I took to be Gregorian chant, is also from there.


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 02:50 PM

Mudcat seems longer lived than any other sites.

leeneia, I wonder if you made a copy of any of the translations from Marie's link?


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: DaveRo
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

The link is available on the Internet Arhive: here (pdf).


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 02:50 AM

Thanks Dave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from the pdf
Let children?s voices resound today, merrily praising
him who has been born, sent by almighty God and
brought forth from a virgin?s womb.

He was born into the world, wrapped in swaddling
clothes, and placed in the manger in a cattle shed,
the Lord of the heavens, the Prince who destroyed
the spoils of hell.

Three wise men appeared; they offered gifts and
asked for a boy-child, following a star; they
worship-ped him, offering him gold, frankincense
and myrrh.

Let all the clerics, and likewise the boys, sing like
the angels:?You have come to the world; therefore
I pour out praise to you: Glory to God in the
highest!?

words from Piae Cantiones, 1582
Translation from The New Oxford Book of Carols


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2017 thread
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=163314&messages=10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,Don Day
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM

This is the version I sing

Music: "Personent hodie," 1582
MIDI / Noteworthy Composer / XML
Meter: 666 66 with Refrain

1. On this day earth shall ring?with the song children sing?to the Lord, Christ our King,?born on earth to save us;?him the Father gave us.
Refrain:?Id-e-o-o-o, id-e-o-o-o,?Id-e-o gloria in excelsis Deo!

2. His the doom, ours the mirth;?when he came down to earth,?Bethlehem saw his birth;?ox and ass beside him?from the cold would hide him. Refrain

3. God's bright star, o'er his head,?Wise Men three to him led;?kneel they low by his bed,?lay their gifts before him,?praise him and adore him. Refrain

4. On this day angels sing;?with their song earth shall ring,?praising Christ, heaven's King,?born on earth to save us;?peace and love he gave us. Refrain


Personent hodie?voces puerulae,?laudantes iucunde?qui nobis est natus,?summo Deo datus,


This is one of many songs which relate to the Holy Innocents, whose feast day is December 28. For more, please see The Hymns Of The Holy Innocents.
?
Earthly Delights: Xmas Carols
This happy 15th or 16th century Latin carol is probably a parody of an earlier medieval song beginning 'intonent hodie voces ecclesie' in honour of St Nicholas, the patron saint of Russia, sailors and children - to whom he traditionally brings gifts on his feast day, 6 December. The parody may have been written for Holy Innocents' Day, a day when choristers and their boy bishop ruled the choir and displaced the senior clergy from their stalls. The tune which accompanied it in the 1582 Finnish Piae Cantiones manuscript was possibly that of the earlier song as a very similar melody is found in a 1360 manuscript from Moosburg, Germany. The English translation used today is by James [sic] M. Joseph.
? ? ? ?
Related Hymns and Carols Matched Content Code HACOC Matched Content
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