Tech: What's the best recorder?

Subject: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:47 PM

I want to buy one of those recording machines that you can transfer recordings from direct to the computer. Some names I've heard are Edirol, Zoom.......can anyone recommend a model for simplicity, ease of use and quality?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 09:47 PM

I've always been a fan of the Sony Walkman Pro series.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:52 PM

I've had very good results with the Edirol R-09.

Peter

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:21 AM

Edirol is good - I believe Nagra is up with the champions, but so are the prices.
Best to decide on one based on your requirements and wallet and go with that; like number 9 buses, there'll always be a better one coming along in a minute.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:39 AM

Stereo recording - Edirol are good but the Zoom gets widely used by PA people etc recording pro gigs straight from the desk and has reasonable built in mics - both Zoom H2 and H4 are cheaper than the Edirol.


Multi tracking - lots of choice Zoom again, Tascam, Boss or Korg

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:23 AM

I use the Edirol RO9 and the results are always excellent.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: nickp
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:37 AM

I have the R-09 and it's very good. I'd recommend spashing out a little extra to get the leather case for it.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 06:37 AM

I got a Zoom H4 for Christmas and I'm staggered by the improvement in sound quality over my Hi-MD recorder for recording our pub sessions. Could be just the mic quality I suppose, but even my £90 Sony stereo mic plugged into my MD can't come near. The Zoom seems to pick out each instrument much more clearly instead of leaving them all in a big muddy mix.   The twin mics are pretty directional, so if I point the thing at a singer on the other side of the table I hardly pick up my harmonica at all! There's mucho trial and error to go. It's a 4-track recorder too but I've yet to play with that feature. The only caveat is the ridiculously-tiny display, though it isn't the major disadvantage that some reviewers would have you think. Also, in recording mode it has a rather menacing glowing red light thsat is somewhat reminiscent of Hal in 2001: A Space Odyssey." Try to get a deal that includes a free SD card. And a 16MB one is useless! Mine cost £199 with a free 512MB card. At 44.1kHz setting ("CD quality") you can record for over three hours with a 2GB card. You can get much more than that if you downgrade to an mP3 setting. I found a 2GB card for £7.99 in Morrisons the other day, so there really is little need to compromise on recording quality these days. A friend of mine has the Edirol and he loves it and it's a bit smaller, but it is more expensive. The Zoom H2 is even cheaper but I know nowt about that that one!

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:00 AM

If you want something a bit posher I know of a couple of ex Nagra users who now use Fostex either the Fostex LR2 or FR2 LE

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:10 AM

You will need a set of headphones for the Zoom H4 if you want to listen immediately to what you've recorded, as it has no inbuilt speaker. Or you can just hope you've set your recording levels correctly, and find out when you get home if it's OK or not!

I don't know if the H2 or the Edirol have playback.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: RTim
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM

The Zoom H2 has play-back via Earphones and is very good - thus far!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:40 AM

Depending on the quality you're looking for, consider checking out the recording options for MP3 players. If you're recording straight from a PA desk, a £50 MP3 player with line-in will do the job damn near as well as a £500 Edirol. With the fancier specialist recorders, you're paying for the quality of mics.

And are you dead set on a hand-held pocket-sized recorder? If you're primarily going to be recording people on stage, you can get an MP3 player with line-in, dual mic preamp (maybe with Firewire) and two fairly nice mics for the same price, which has the added advantage that you've then got home-studio-grade recording kit. Getting similar quality mics to what the recorders use will knock a couple hundred quid off the total.

In other words... cheap, portable, high-quality: pick any two. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From:
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:17 PM

One thing, Sue, is the Zoom doesn't offer ToD stamp on the recording unless it's been upgraded. My Edirol R-09 gave me that from the start and it can be pretty important. I am using 2G memory cards for either my Zoom or Edirol and the Time of Day Stamp gives me important information on when/why it was recorded without the need to listen to the recording. It's a bit more expensive. Check Zoom to see if they've made any updates. Should do that myself! 8-)

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: treewind
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:26 PM

"Zoom doesn't offer ToD stamp on the recording"

Hmm.. it's little details like that (which I take for granted) that make me appreciate my Edirol R09.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM

Thanks for everything so far, much to think about, and a great help.

What I primarily want it for at the moment is:
1. to record my or our band's practice sessions (or bits thereof) for our own learning purposes or to help new band members
2. to record myself for myspace purposes and possibly later for demos (but I might use a studio for that)
3. to collect new songs from other singers on the spot when and where I find them.

So I guess not really for recording on stage at all, or unlikely.

A small query - how does a ToD stamp record why something was recorded, doesn't it just give a date?

Sue

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM

Interesting thread - I'm looking at buying either a Zoom H4 versus Edirol R09 and note that the price of the Edirol has dropped to around £250 inc one or two freebies. The Zoom may have uni-directional mikes whereas the Edirol has omni which may be better for session recordings; pity you don't have a switch option to have best of both worlds.

Anyone had experience of both units? - the Zoom sounds attractive for features and price but the point about small display may put me off.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

So what's the difference between an H2 and an H4?

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:59 PM

I have a permanent cable attached to the back of my kitchen hi-fi for connecting my MD recorder and it works just as well for playback from the Zoom H4. I just have to hit the AUX button on the stereo. The cable has a mini-jack on the H4 end, connected to the line-out, and phono on the hi-fi end. I play back my recordings when I get home from the pub. I am in the kitchen having a cup of tea and a digestive or six and cleaning my harmonicas, which I then leave to air-dry out of their boxes overnight.   At that time my wife is in bed so all the swearing on the recording, of which there is much, can be heard with impunity. One can always edit it out on the computer in the(late) morning. I'm not usually in a fit state to judge the recording quality at that juncture, but at least it's damn sight better than listening to the shipping forecast or Late Night Lisa on Classic FM. God, who picks that stuff.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:07 PM

Just to point out--the Nagras are much larger than the Zoom and the Edirol--not pocket recorders at all. I keep my Edirol in my messenger bag, and it has made it possible to get a lot of stuff that I wouldn't have otherwise had--OK, maybe too much stuff. And I can never throw anything away. But it is easy to burn to CD--

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Nick E
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:44 PM

According to a recent thread, anything that is not a Penny Whistle

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: reggie miles
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:02 AM

The H2 has several mic settings that allow you to use the available onboard mics in one of several different configurations. I assume the H4 might offer some similar feature as well but I can't be certain. Do check out their features online before you purchase as there are many as well as user feedback reviews about them.

I'm wondering if anyone has ventured into the higher price end of things. The Korg MR-1 at $600-$700 and MR-1000 at $1200 record at previously unheard of saturation levels. They claim the idea of this level of recording makes their recorders future proof, as they put it. I guess, with the bar being raised to that level, the next generation of recorders are already here and available, if you have the coin. The only question seems to be, is it practical for the guy who wants to put together a home recording studio.

Does anyone have any experience with these models?

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:32 AM

I use an H4 for all manner of stuff, but if there's anything like a breath of wind the wee 'black nose' is next to useless; I stuff the entire thing inside the black foam pop-shield off my Behringer B1 which gives perfect results every time.

Once you've invested in something you're stuck with it, pretty much. There are aspects of the Zoom H4 I hate - like the cradle with the Velcro straps & the crappy plastic outer shell & the little bag... One expects more for ones money somehow, especially from the Zoom design team, whose pedals I use without reservation (the green Zoom A2.1u is just the thing for Jew's Harps & pocket trumpet!). Otherwise, I love the H4 - records like a dream; I even used it to record my track for the Woven Wheat Whispers 'All Saints Arise' compilation (an unaccompanied rendering of Child#32 - King Henry with untreated Jew's Harp interludes ; hear it on my Myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/sedayne ).

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: GLoux
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM

The current issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine (March 2008) has an a review of the Zoom H2 and it's posted on their website. From the article, they say the H2 has fewer features than the H4, so it is less expensive.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM

That's right. Basically you're paying the extra ton for the 4-track facility; I wish I'd gone for the H2 which looks a nicer piece of kit altogether. Less is so very often more!

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: oggie
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM

I use the H2 and have been recording my bandoneon on it. No problems and very acceptable results. The stereo separation is very good. The only problem is the size of the screen, I just have to remeber to wear my glasses :)

Steve

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM

I have a Zoom H4 .My first problem was that it was incompatible with my computer,but once that problem was solved I find the sound reproduction is unbelievable.I recorded as my first try out the general noise about the house .My Grandchildren were running around,people talking etc.When I played it back I thought the children were playing the same game,I took my headphones off to check which sound was the correct one.
I have not mastered the multi track options,or in fact many of the options, but it reproduced the music session perfectly.H2 would appear to be cheaper and easier for just normal recording.
Al

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

That is very interesting, Alan. I too have had trouble getting files from the H4 saved into the computer program I use (Audio Cleaning Lab). I found that I have to leave the recorder connected to the PC all the time whilst I'm editing and burning to CD, and the latter procedure is very awkward and takes an age (slower than real time on occasion!) I thought the unit was faulty to start with. Even now I feel I've worked around the problem rather than solved it properly.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:16 PM

I plug the H4 in through the USB cable and the PC thinks it's another removeable disk. Then I just drag the tracks I want from the H4 to a folder on the hard disk, and work on the copy, leaving the original on the SD card.

I believe if you have a card reader, you can just take the SD card out of the H4 and put it in the reader (like a photo set).

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:51 PM

I always use a card reader--it makes things much simpler.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Anglo
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:59 PM

The main reason I bought the Edirol R-09 rather than the somewhat cheaper Zoom H2 is that the Edirol has buttons on the box for record level control, and my understanding is that on the Zoom this is a software control. If I'm recording something I want to be able to look at the levels and adjust them with a dedicated button. I don't do a great deal of recording, but I'm very happy with the Edirol. Maybe you Zoom users can tell me how you adjust record level on the H2.

Transfer to computer is slow - I only have USB 1 - I guess I should follow M.Ted's advice and get a card reader.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From:
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:30 PM

I have both. Anglo's right the Record Level Control is VERY handy and is hard to access on the H4. Display on either is fairly small. The H4 will reduce the display's light intensity by quite a bit.
 
Sue, the ToD tells me what it is and why I recorded it because knowing the date and the time tells me what it is.
 
I have always taken the SD card out since my laptop has a card reader built-in. Very handy!
 
The fancy stuff I haven't gotten around to using either.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:36 AM

For use with the built-in mics the H4 has three gain settings, L-M-H. I just set mine to M for the pub session and forget it. On my HiMD recorder I was forever fiddling around with the manual rec level and never seemed to get it any better than the default. You just need to avoid digital clipping at very loud bits, that's all. If you were using a slightly low level you can fix this with your editing program. It isn't something to get too stressed about. But you can fiddle with it manually if you really want to! None of these gizmos have manual settings that are easy to get right when you're on the fly.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: mattkeen
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Sedayne

Interesting tracks on your myspace page - thanks

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 09:21 AM

I have a radio show and the station has Edirol RO-9's for reporters etc.

I haven't recorded music only speech so far - but it is great and naturally the sound at best setting is remarkable.

Not my own money so I haven't tried the alternatives but the Edirol is great.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 02:27 PM

Remember that the quality of the music on modern digital recorders is little better than that on the best audio cassette recorders, such as Sony Pro Walkman. The big improvement of course is lack of hiss on the recording, unless the record level is set too low. I have done headphone tests on this and I was quite surprised. The other big improvement is much longer record times and the ability to upload to a PC, convert to FLAC and then upload to Dime for others to hear.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

Well... yes, but most people haven't heard a *really* good cassette recorder. And the difference in background hiss is a big difference. There is also less distortion, no wow/flutter and better frequency response, flatter and going further at both ends of the spectrum.

I think your point is better made by saying that the quality of recording on the digital recorders is wasted using the internal mics - plug a pair of Schoeps MK41's in though a good preamp and you would have as good as any other stereo recording - and with good monitoring I think you'd hear it was better than even a Walkman Pro.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:23 PM

I can honestly say that I never heard music on cassette reproduced without flutter on any equipment I've ever heard it played on, and that includes some very high quality gear. Cassette players were the iPods of their day. Music for the couldn't-care-less-about-sound-quality masses.

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:03 PM

The big difference with digital recordings now as far as I am converned is the amount of dynamic range a 24 bit system is capable of. You can really go from very quiet to very loud without background noise. Loads of head room.


Doesn't matter if you heavish band bound for radio as it will be compressed to death at the mastering stage anyway.

But if you have first hand experience of a pair of Schoeps, Gefells etc oing through really good pre amps into a quality 24 bit recorder you will hear a HUGE diffrence over a cassette even the ridiculously expensive Revox one I had in the 80's

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:06 PM

Marvellous! thanks all. Think I'm heading for an Edirol.....now, next question....any suggestions for which sites/shops to try for the best deal?

Sue

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:44 PM

Does anybody have any experience with SONY's entry in the field?

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Anglo
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:49 AM

Well, Anahata has the right idea (hah!) inviting us to use Schoeps MK41s, but a pair of these will cost around $2000. Not in my range I'm afraid, for what I use the machine for.

I'm afraid I'll continue to use the built-in mics on my R-09. If I want something a bit better I still have my stereo Audio-Technica AT825 from the days of my DAT portable (long dead).

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Saro
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:45 AM

I got my Edirol from a company called Thomann, who I'm told do a pretty competitive price. You can find them via Google, and their delivery was very fast.
Saro

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: gnomad
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:06 AM

Thomann

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:58 AM

Dolmetsch? (gets coat)

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: rabbitlegs
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM

Anybody know much about the Boss Micro BR?

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:31 AM

Richard

Good god, are they still going? had them at school! (one or two, ahem, years ago)

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM

Still making some excellent top end recorders, and if you google Dr Brian Blood you will find some very learned discourses

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: nickp
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

The latest (free download) for the Edirol r-09 is version 1.30 and I applied it over the weekend - it enables the 8 Gig SDHC cards, so thats' about 13 hours 44100hz 16 bit WAV and about 60 hours of mp3...

I think it still breaks the file at 2gig but it should be seamless and just means a smidgeon of editing later - or another new feature is to force the file break by pressing the repeat a-b button while recording.

I've sent for my 8gig card having got a decent price through Amazon (UK).

Still stunned by how good that little recorder is.

Nick

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:52 PM

Dolmetsch? (gets coat)

Still making some excellent top end recorders,

Their plastic ones are pretty good these days, especially the Tenor and Bass

Subject: RE: Tech: What's the best recorder?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 09:50 AM

Is an Edirol R09 really worth double the price of a Zoom H2? The H2 seems to tick most boxes compared to the Edirol and takes up less space in you pocket..

If someone can still make a strong case for the Edirol though...........