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BS: The smoking ban & pubs

skipy 16 Mar 08 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,redsnapper 16 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM
skipy 16 Mar 08 - 07:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 08 - 08:03 PM
skipy 16 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM
bobad 16 Mar 08 - 08:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 08 - 08:28 PM
number 6 16 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM
bobad 16 Mar 08 - 08:50 PM
Ernest 17 Mar 08 - 03:09 AM
Doug Chadwick 17 Mar 08 - 03:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Mar 08 - 04:01 AM
The Villan 17 Mar 08 - 04:01 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Mar 08 - 05:21 AM
Thompson 17 Mar 08 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Watney 17 Mar 08 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 08 - 08:18 AM
redsnapper 17 Mar 08 - 08:56 AM
redsnapper 17 Mar 08 - 08:59 AM
Bee 17 Mar 08 - 09:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 08 - 09:29 AM
Nick 17 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM
theleveller 17 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM
Beer 17 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 08 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 17 Mar 08 - 03:47 PM
theleveller 17 Mar 08 - 04:17 PM
Wesley S 17 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM
Bee 17 Mar 08 - 04:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 08 - 04:21 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 17 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM
The Villan 17 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Watney 17 Mar 08 - 05:13 PM
Ernest 17 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 17 Mar 08 - 05:21 PM
Wesley S 17 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM
The Villan 17 Mar 08 - 05:33 PM
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theleveller 18 Mar 08 - 04:20 AM
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manitas_at_work 18 Mar 08 - 09:13 AM
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GUEST,Ol' Smokey 18 Mar 08 - 09:33 PM
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GUEST,Ol' Smokey 18 Mar 08 - 09:44 PM
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GUEST,Ol' Smokey 18 Mar 08 - 10:00 PM
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TheSnail 19 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM
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skipy 19 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM
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Wesley S 19 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM
Herga Kitty 19 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 19 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM
bobad 19 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM
skipy 19 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 19 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 08 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM
Folkiedave 20 Mar 08 - 04:50 AM
The Villan 20 Mar 08 - 05:23 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM
The Villan 20 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM
John Routledge 20 Mar 08 - 02:22 PM
the lemonade lady 20 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 20 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM
The Villan 20 Mar 08 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 20 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM
The Villan 20 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM
skipy 20 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM
The Villan 20 Mar 08 - 06:42 PM
Ruth Archer 20 Mar 08 - 07:54 PM
skipy 20 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,Watney 20 Mar 08 - 09:17 PM
skipy 20 Mar 08 - 09:34 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 20 Mar 08 - 09:38 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey as well 20 Mar 08 - 10:04 PM
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TheSnail 21 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM
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Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 08 - 06:12 AM
the lemonade lady 21 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM
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Backwoodsman 21 Mar 08 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 21 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Mar 08 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Guest 22 Mar 08 - 05:29 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,guest 22 Mar 08 - 07:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 08 - 09:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 08 - 09:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 08 - 10:32 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Mar 08 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 22 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM
Big Mick 22 Mar 08 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 22 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM
Big Mick 22 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 22 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 08 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 22 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Mar 08 - 08:25 PM
skipy 22 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 23 Mar 08 - 12:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Mar 08 - 06:46 AM
the lemonade lady 23 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM
Victor in Mapperton 23 Mar 08 - 02:01 PM
Victor in Mapperton 23 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 23 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Mar 08 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 24 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM
Victor in Mapperton 24 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 08 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,Guest 25 Mar 08 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 25 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,OSps 25 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM
Wesley S 25 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM
Big Mick 25 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 25 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 08 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 04:01 PM
skipy 26 Mar 08 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 07:21 PM
skipy 26 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM
Big Mick 26 Mar 08 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,Guest 26 Mar 08 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Mohd Najmul Alam Shabuj 26 Mar 08 - 08:33 PM
TheSnail 26 Mar 08 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 09:00 PM
TheSnail 26 Mar 08 - 09:11 PM
Big Mick 26 Mar 08 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 09:24 PM
Big Mick 26 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 09:34 PM
Big Mick 26 Mar 08 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 09:46 PM
Big Mick 26 Mar 08 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 26 Mar 08 - 10:07 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 08 - 04:03 AM
TheSnail 27 Mar 08 - 05:50 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Mar 08 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 27 Mar 08 - 04:39 PM
TheSnail 27 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 27 Mar 08 - 10:35 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM
Thompson 28 Mar 08 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 28 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 28 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Guest 28 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM
TheSnail 28 Mar 08 - 10:50 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 28 Mar 08 - 11:57 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 08 - 05:01 AM
Sttaw Legend 29 Mar 08 - 06:31 AM
TheSnail 29 Mar 08 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Guest 29 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM
Thompson 29 Mar 08 - 08:34 AM
Big Mick 29 Mar 08 - 09:27 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 08 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 29 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM
Big Mick 29 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 29 Mar 08 - 03:23 PM
Big Mick 29 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 29 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Guest 29 Mar 08 - 04:51 PM
Big Mick 29 Mar 08 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 29 Mar 08 - 05:17 PM
TheSnail 29 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 29 Mar 08 - 09:45 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Mar 08 - 02:44 AM
GUEST,Guest 30 Mar 08 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 08 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,Guest 30 Mar 08 - 06:50 AM
goatfell 30 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM
Alice 30 Mar 08 - 01:32 PM
Alice 30 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM
Big Mick 30 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 08 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Guest 30 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM
Big Mick 30 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 30 Mar 08 - 04:14 PM
TheSnail 30 Mar 08 - 04:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 30 Mar 08 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,O|' Smokey 30 Mar 08 - 09:23 PM
goatfell 31 Mar 08 - 05:59 AM
goatfell 31 Mar 08 - 06:03 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Guest 31 Mar 08 - 08:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 08 - 08:38 AM
goatfell 31 Mar 08 - 08:44 AM
goatfell 31 Mar 08 - 08:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM
goatfell 31 Mar 08 - 09:50 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Mar 08 - 09:59 AM
goatfell 31 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 31 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Guest 31 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 31 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM
redsnapper 31 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,guest 31 Mar 08 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 31 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM
Alice 31 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM
Alice 31 Mar 08 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 31 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM
Alice 31 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,guest 31 Mar 08 - 02:42 PM
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Alice 31 Mar 08 - 03:17 PM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Guest 31 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM
Alice 31 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM
skipy 31 Mar 08 - 05:41 PM
Herga Kitty 31 Mar 08 - 05:49 PM
skipy 31 Mar 08 - 05:52 PM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM
skipy 31 Mar 08 - 05:56 PM
Ebbie 31 Mar 08 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 31 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM
skipy 31 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 06:28 PM
skipy 31 Mar 08 - 06:33 PM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 07:00 PM
skipy 31 Mar 08 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 08 - 07:35 PM
TheSnail 31 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Ol' Smokey 31 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM
Big Mick 01 Apr 08 - 12:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 08 - 04:45 AM
goatfell 01 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM
Alice 01 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM
goatfell 02 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM
Jean(eanjay) 02 Apr 08 - 02:43 PM
Herga Kitty 02 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM
goatfell 03 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM
goatfell 04 Apr 08 - 07:00 AM
Lowden Jameswright 04 Apr 08 - 07:51 AM
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skipy 05 Apr 08 - 09:11 PM
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GUEST,Guest 06 Apr 08 - 05:58 PM
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skipy 06 Apr 08 - 06:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM
skipy 07 Apr 08 - 05:13 PM
goatfell 08 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM
skipy 08 Apr 08 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Sapper 13 May 09 - 08:57 AM
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Mr Happy 13 May 09 - 10:05 AM
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gnu 26 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM
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Subject: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:44 PM

http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news_detail.aspx?articleid=57964
Work it out for yourselves
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,redsnapper
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM

And the future decrease in passive smoking deaths?

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:50 PM

Not one, repeat not one death cert. ever has stated passive smoking, it is myth


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:03 PM

Myth only because it is not reported in that form. The reports denote the cause- cancer, emphysemia, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM

Have a google, there is no evidence of anyone being effected by secondhand smoke. However it will close a lot of your folk clubs etc.
As I am not a singer or a muscian it will not effect me, you have brought it on yourselves by letting it happen


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:24 PM

".....there is no evidence of anyone being effected by secondhand smoke"

Tell that to Heather Crowe


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:28 PM

Roy Castle never smoked

I suspect that pubs closing are far more affected by other things - beer sales in supermarkets and growing awareness of the risks of driving after drinking (not least, the risk of getting caught driving above the limit), plus the profit to be made by putting up housing developments on pub sites.

Any idea of rolling back on the smoking or the driving front would be daft and irresponsible. But cutting the tax on beer in pubs and making up the revenue by putting up the tax on sales elsewhere would make a lot of sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: number 6
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

I wonder how many deaths have been a result of pickled eggs ?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: bobad
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:50 PM

Don't know about deaths biLL but I bet a lot of guys were relegated to a night on the couch by their bed mates after a night of beer and pickled eggs. Don't forget the pickled tongues.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ernest
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:09 AM

How many deaths have been caused by passive thinking?

Apart from the newer quotation we have had this discussion a while ago and none of your arguments was - or is - getting more convincing, skipy.

Sorry.

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:34 AM

Face the fact skipy - the ban is here and here to stay. None of the evidence you present, no matter how valid, is likely to change that.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:01 AM

Oh for heavens sake, give it up skipy.

Even the article itself says that pub closures are NOT due to the smoking ban. In case you missed it the first quote given is

"Britain's pubs are grappling with spiralling costs, sinking sales, fragile consumer confidence and the impact of the smoking ban," said BBPA chief executive Rob Hayward.

If the chief executive of the British beer and pub association is blaming spiraling costs, sinking sales and fragile consumer confidence as well as the smoking ban, then why can you not just accept that these pubs would have closed anyway?

Go and live somewhere else if smoking in pubs is that important to you but stop pestering the majority of people who agree with the ban.

BTW - I was going to wait until the anniversary of the ban to mention this but remember that long list of pubs near me that I gave in your other thread? Guess how many have closed. None. Not a single one.

There was one or two pubs in particular that you mentioned near you. Have they closed?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:01 AM

Although it may not be the same, the demise of the pub can be the rising of the village hall. I would much rather see the village hall survive.
Have a look at this. http://www.dontpassgas.org/?gclid=CNzilq_Wk5ICFQhCMAodVjAh7Q

Once you get through the intro page, look for the little white dots on the picture and point the mouse at each one. There should be enough evidence there Skipy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:21 AM

Two pubs have closed in recent times in my town. They were dumps, dirty and scruffy and mostly empty. That's why they closed, nothing to do with smoking bans. Who wants to sit in a dump rather than in their own home?

The demise of pubs has far more to do with cheap booze sold in supermarkets than it has to do with forcing smokers outside to practice their horrible habit. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:45 AM

In Ireland, the sick leave of bar staff from upper respiratory infections has plunged in the time since smoking in pubs was banned.

If you feel that your desire to smoke overrides the right of working men and women to have a safe workplace, fine...


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:51 AM

A British association that speaks for landlords has confirmed that a record number of public houses have closed since the smoking ban and unemployment among bar staff is at a record level. They say it's not all down to cheap supermarket booze. A lot of public houses have built luxury smoking areas adjusted to the properties to encourage smokers to return, gone are the open air bus shelter smoking areas.

I think it's fantastic, I also think the extra 11 pence on a packet of twenty this week is brilliant.

As a smoker and a drinker my friends and I just hop onto a cheap flight to mainland Europe and buy a load of cigarettes (19.00 Euros for 200) and a stock of booze and bring it home. House parties are on the increase and much better fun.

Shopkeepers are losing out on cigarette sales, landlords are closing up shop and all the moaners about smoking are paying the extra taxes the government slip onto other goods to re coup their increasing losses.

It doesn't annoy me and I get a cheap holiday out of it too !


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:18 AM

If someone says "There is no evidence that..." be suspicious. Usually, they want you to think that the thing there is "no evidence for" is therefore not true. In fact, it could mean that they don't know of the evidence that does exist, or that there is no proof, or that not enough research has been done, or that the "pro" lobby has presented partial evidence only. And in the case of the pharmaceutical industry for example, it could mean that evidence has been deliberately suppressed. I mean, there's no evidence that the far side of Saturn isn't peopled by little green men either.   And I don't have to hang my wooden-bodied harmonicas out in a net bag on the washing line any more to get rid of the disgusting smell. Grow up, smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:56 AM

I'm afraid some of them won't Steve.

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:59 AM

By the way, I had to give up gigging several times a week a few years ago due to the passive smoke I was inhaling for hours at a time and which made me feel quite ill (I have never smoked). I can now go into a pub to play music or simply to drink and it has now become a pleasure again.

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Bee
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:11 AM

The public places smoking ban has been in foece here for quite a few years. It hasn't had any noticeable effect on urban drinking spots. A few years before that, however, the province cracked right down on driving under the influence, and that killed quite a number of rural taverns. It just became entirely too difficult for people to get home from having even a couple of beers. Some pubs tried running little buses or vans all around the countryside to take people home, but changes and increases in insurance policies killed that effort.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:29 AM

House parties might be all right for serious drinking - but I value pubs as places you can drop into for a pint and maybe run into a friend or two, or just sit in the corner and do a crossword and see the world go by.

Pubs are valuable resources, and need to be protected against unfair competition from supermarkets. But not at the expense of our lungs. As I said, cut the taxes and the prices in pubs, and put up the tax in shops. And a separate queue for buying drink wouldn't be a bad idea either.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Nick
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM

It must make Dave Swarbrick's gigging a little better than it used to be. Some while back in the smoking days when I last saw him play with Martin Carthy in York everyone had to be asked NOT to smoke as otherwise he would be unable to perform (or breathe for that matter).

I feel really sorry for people who are stuck with smoking - it's an addiction which I know I found very difficult to stop (first thing in the morning it used to be the untipped Gitanes hanging out of the window to get the nicotine levels up as my wife preferred me not to smoke in the bedroom). I personally don't care whether people smoke or not but I much prefer a non smoking environment now I have got used to it and wouldn't wish to go back. Perhaps a measure of the hold that smoking has on people and why they are so keen to do anything to be able to satisfy their addiction is illustrated by the following - when my father was diagnosed with lung cancer in 1965 he went and had his lung removed at Brompton Hospital. The people there were all there with cigarette related lung problems suffering from cancer or advanced emphysema etc My father related to me a story about how one of the people who had had his leg amputated because of the circulatory problems he had would still manage to drag himself (fairly literally) off to the toilets so that he could sneak a quick smoke of a cigarette.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM

Personally, I'd rather lose my club than lose my life. In fact, it has made no difference whatsoever to the clubs I go to - actually, it has, there seems to be even more singers coming now. Not one smoker has stopped coming and the atmosphere for singers is much better.

If pub takings are down as a result of smokers staying at home, it seems to me that landlords will welcome any attempt to drum up more trade - such as encouraging folk clubs. So we might end up with more clubs, not less.It's a win-win situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Beer
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

Mum was told years back when smoking wasn't that big an issue to stop by her Doctor. She told him(which was true) that she never smoked a cigarette in her life. She lived in a house full of smoke. She died last year but not from second hand smoke. I'm not saying that second hand smoke won't kill. I'm just stating a fact. Since I gave up 4 years ago I simply can't be around the stink. Man I must have reeked when I was around people.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:03 AM

Vin Garbutt once said that he was singing in a folk club that had an extractor fan to suck all the smoke out. Unfortunately, it was on the wall behind the stage, so all the smoke got sucked in his direction on its way out!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:47 PM

Skipy, you have my complete support.

The ban was the last nail in the coffin for small local pubs, and that has become more obvious with the onset of cold weather.

The argument against passive smoking is a very weak one in my opinion, as those who object to a smokey atmosphere are usually perfectly capable of removing themselves from it if they feel they are in any danger or discomfort.

Some seem to regard the ban as some kind of victory - I personally think that attitude is pathetic, short-sighted and small-minded.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:17 PM

"those who object to a smokey atmosphere are usually perfectly capable of removing themselves from it"

Why the hell should we have to? How would you like it if I stood next to you and farted all night? Fortunately, we've now removed you - or at least your disgusting habit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

So what's so difficult about walking outside for a smoke? What kind of hardship is that? Insurmountable?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Bee
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:20 PM

Ol' Smokey, I still smoke a little myself, but really, it's one thing to say customers can come or go, but the staff have little choice - jobs aren't lightly given up.

My younger sister has mild asthma. She's also extremely accommodating and hates to inconvenience anyone, especially her big sister. Years ago, while visiting in winter, I asked if she minded if I had a cigarette by the slightly open window, and she said 'sure'. Ten minutes later, I could hear the breath just wheezing in her lungs. I was horrified, and have never lit up anywhere near her since, certainly not indoors.

I can fill my own home with smoke if it so pleases me. There's no good reason for me to force other people to put up with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:21 PM

Interesting article from a reliable source, The Mayo Clinic:
Secondhand smoke

"Secondhand smoke: Avoid Dangers in the Air You Breathe."

On my own part, I will not attend any facility or concert where smoking is permitted. And I do like folk music!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

"The argument against passive smoking is a very weak one in my opinion, as those who object to a smokey atmosphere are usually perfectly capable of removing themselves from it if they feel they are in any danger or discomfort."

Typical of the selfish twaddle spouted by addicts, and the cause of them being thrown out ofd the door to suck on their coffin nails.

If you feel justified in enveloping me in a cloud of second-hand smoke - the waste product of your smoking - then presumably you wouldn't feel aggrieved if I came up to you and gave you a liberal coating of the waste product of my drinking?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM

Heck, I've given up going in pubs - what more do you want? A hanging? A little tolerance wouldn't go amiss - most smokers are willing to compromise, and in my experience most non-smokers don't actually care.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

I do


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:13 PM

Smokers have rights too, hope the government raises income tax and drink as a smoker and a drinker I buy mine aboard !

Smokers must remember that 20 cigarettes cost 28 pence to produce, the rest of the cost is taxation. So if a smoker requires hospitalisation due to a smoking relating disorder, you more than paid for your bed.

These moaners above should give their fees back to the clubs they played in as a protest to them allowing smoking for all those years.

Maybe the fees they earned wouldn't amount to the price of twenty !


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ernest
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM

"most smokers are willing to compromise"

and

"those who object to a smokey atmosphere are usually perfectly capable of removing themselves from it if they feel they are in any danger or discomfort"

sounds like an absolutely great compromise.

On the other hand, the quote

"I personally think that attitude is pathetic, short-sighted and small-minded"

fits in nicely here.

Regards
Ernest


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:21 PM

Rights? I think not, old boy.. not if it were left to this lot.
Still, they'll all die of something nice I expect :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM

No one is saying that smokers can't smoke. Just go outside where it can dissipate. What so difficult about that?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:33 PM

If you had any guts Ol Smokey,you would give up on the smoking. You are weak and can't break the habit. You need help.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Joybell
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:41 PM

I did go outside when I went into bronchospasm from breathing second-hand smoke. I had to -- or give up breathing. You can probably guess how that affected my job as a singer. AND my career as a nurse (hospitals allowed smoking here). You can probably guess why I had to give up going ANYWHERE, for work, shopping, or pleasure, for 20 years.
Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

You're quite right, TV, but meanwhile.. that's not really the issue. I personally am not the issue, I don't play in pubs any more. Never liked sessions much anyway, too many bodhrans.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

Smokers were a minority in most pubs. Often a very small minority. Now they are a small minority outside pubs.

But I wish people didn't feel a a need to be aggressive about this, and think they had a right to do so. I mean acertain type of non-smoker. All right most people prefer not to smoke, and there are very serious health risks associated with smoking - but you could say the same thing about homosexuality. We rightly recognise that kind of talk in that context as intolerant and unacceptable.

Smoking in pubs was unpleasant for non-smokers, but it's a thing of the past, and it won't be coming back. The same should be true of the hate talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

Well said sir.

Now I'm off for me fag break.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM

LOL Why are you breaking your fags :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:44 PM

The reassembly is very theraputic :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:53 PM

As a gigging musician, it is a pleasure to not have to breathe the smokey air in either a pub, cafe, or coffee house.

Next it should be banned outside, also. It is polluting good air. Ever been to the beach trying to breathe a nice lake breeze and have to put up with someone smoking? What right do they have? Your own house or your own care, and that's it. See, I can be tolerant.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

"It is polluting good air" Do you drive to your gigs, Stranger?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Bee
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:07 PM

Hey, hey, Backwoodsman and Villan! Is there a need to broadbrush all smokers as weak, selfish and villainous? You apparently don't think my opinion as a smoker, which agrees entirely with the principle of not smoking where others are affected by it, suggested that some smokers might have a moral compass?

That's part of the problem, the vitriol and demonization of people who certainly are addicted, for whatever reason, and there are many!

Most smokers around here didn't utter a complaint when the smoking bans came in. We saw it as inevitable and the right thing to do. The big whiners were the liquor establishment owners.

But honestly, far too many non-smokers treat us as if we eat babies for breakfast, instead of quietly indulging a bad habit mostly out of sight and smell of any member of the public.

I personally am revolted by people who spit in the street, and from the look of mainstreet sidewalks almost anywhere, a whacking large number of people do. It's horribly unsanitary, I cringe when I see kids touching sidewalks. But I don't think spitters should be crucified over the habit, nasty as it is, just asked to take it off the public streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM

Tolerantly and in a spirit of open-minded fairness, I expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,OS
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:13 PM

Stranger driving to gigs, that is.. got overtaken there.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:07 PM

Yes, I drive to gigs because I play in a wide area. Puhhhlease do not give me that self righteous crap about air pollution from cars. I drive a very "green" car and am not going to walk 30 miles to a gignor take my PA system on a bus.

Comparing that to cigarette smoking is really pretty holier than thou.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:15 PM

Agreed - let's cut out the "self righteous crap". Which was the point I was making.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:07 PM

Is one allowed to smoke green stuff?
Sorry, couldn't resist..
Surely though, in an ideal world, shouldn't we all have a choice as to the smokiness of the social environment we wish to frequent? Few smokers actually wish to cause suffering or discomfort to anyone, and there's room in the world for smoke free pubs or rooms within. A bit of tolerance is all that is needed. As M. of H. said though, it's done now and there's no going back.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:20 AM

"let's cut out the "self righteous crap"."

What's self-righteous about not wanting to be poisoned? Seems like basic self-preservation to me. Anyway, going outside is a great opportunity for a chat. I was standing around outside with the smokers from the folk club on Sunday and we we could have a conversation without my having to breath in the second-hand smoke. Nobody complained - everyone was happy. What's the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:56 AM

What we all need to look at is the fat ass brigade. These monsters are a drain on the health service and seem to always slip under radar when it comes to taxation.

If someone with six asses books an airfare, they should be made to pay for two seats. The amount of people that live of benefits because they can't work due to a weight problem is ridiculous.

Either force them back into work by stopping their benefits or put their ass in a bacon slicer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:07 AM

I hread on the radio over here in Britian 1,000 people die through second hand somke and tell their famlies that second hand smoking doesn't exsits


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:13 AM

"The argument against passive smoking is a very weak one in my opinion, as those who object to a smokey atmosphere are usually perfectly capable of removing themselves from it if they feel they are in any danger or discomfort."

If I stood outside your house banging a drum, would you call the council and get a Noise enforcement officer to move me on or would you sell up and go and live somewhere else?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:19 AM

"The amount of people that live of benefits because they can't work due to a weight problem is ridiculous."

Is it more than the number of people who live on benefit because of smoking related illnesses? You obviously have the figures at your fingertips so would you be good enough to enlighten us?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Essex Girl
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM

McGrath, I fully agree with you. Let's reduce the tax on drinks sold in pubs and curb the 24 hour sale of cheap booze in Supermarkets and so-called convenience stores! My enjoyment comes in going to a pub with good beer (Real Ale) meeting with friends and enjoying music.I drink wine at home (which I buy on trips to France) but nothing beats a well kept draft ale in a traditional pub!!! I have never smoked but have never objected to others smoking but I can now enjoy pubs without having to wash all of my clothes to get rid of the smell!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM

"What we all need to look at is the fat ass brigade. These monsters are a drain on the health service and seem to always slip under radar when it comes to taxation."

But, Pratney, their fat arses won't kill me the way your filthy smoke might.

Why won't you pillocks get it - YOUR filth harms OTHER PEOPLE. Oh, and by the way, guess what, YOU STINK.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM

In smokers defence - they have no clue as to how bad they smell. Most smokers never notice it. I've heard recovering smokers say it time and time again that they never knew how much the smell of smoke clung to their clothes and breath. Only after they quit will they begin to get a clue as to how offensive their odors are. And have you ever kissed a smoker? It's like kissing an ashtray.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM

I find it rather amusing that it's the non-smokers here who are blatantly more stressed about the issue. You have nothing to defend, yet you persist in making fools of yourselves with fatuous illogical arguments and personal insults. Give it a rest; enjoy your nice clean scum-free pubs while they are still in business. If your taste in music is less important than whether the performer smokes or not, then.. well, work it out for yourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

Mrs Patrick Campbell's comment about homosexuality "I don't care what they do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses" rather applies here to smokers, slightly adjusted. "I don't care what they do, so long as they don't do it in the pub and make me choke".

Live and let live (or possibly die). No need to get bad tempered about it .


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

I admit, Smokey, that being killed by other people's selfishness can be pretty stressful but at least we don't have to light up to calm down. Oh, and performers don't usually smoke whilst performing so I can't see what your argument is there. The pubs I go to are busier than ever so no problem there, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:45 PM

One thing that does bother me about smokers is that so many of them treat the world like it's their ashtray. Where ever they take their last drag is where they drop their butt. Sometimes they stomp it out but usually they let it just smolder away. And who knows - maybe it won't set fire to something else. I've seen smokers drop their butts two or three feet from an ashtray because they were just too lazy to dispose of it properly. I've even seen them droped to smolder on carpets. A major portion of smokers are just plain rude and inconsiderate of the feelings and rights of others. Of course - that's just one man's opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:38 PM

ARRAN in America thet heard on the radio that the Martians had invaded! So they ran for the hills in their 1000s.
So ALL radio is true is it?
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

ALL most of us want is a system whereby the 25 - 30% of us who DO smoke can go to smoke. e.g. a few "smoking pubs or bars" about 25 -30% perhaps, you know DEMOCACY at it's best! Is that asking TOO much?
Also we don't need all the grief we get from a few (& it is a few) non smokers! When I do have a pint at the local & it is drop in for one now & again I often end up sitting in the smoking shed with non smokers while the pub is nearly empty.
But trust me if I am first on scene at a car accident the first thing I will do is check the ashtry, no dog ends = no help from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:56 PM

But think how much more money you'd have for beer and ale if you quit smoking. You'd probably live longer too.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Megan L
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:59 PM

"But trust me if I am first on scene at a car accident the first thing I will do is check the ashtry, no dog ends = no help from me. "

That just about sums you up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:05 PM

Correct Megan, I have never done a single thing in my life to help anybody in any way!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:09 PM

I think Megan might be experiencing a slight irony deficiency...


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:16 PM

Just for the record Megan, I am in no way involved in Folk music, song or dance, let alone strange men with hankies & or sticks!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:48 PM

Of course some of us are stressed. For years I had some -- quite a lot actually - smokers treat me like an intolerant anti social fool. I was told I was being paid to put up with their smoke. I was told it wasn't their smoke that was the problem. I'm stupid you see -- I don't understand my problem. I was told I could go to a wonderful homeopath who would sell me drops to put on my tongue so that their smoke wouldn't affect me. I was told my problem wasn't as bad as being starved/blown up/getting ebola ...... (ie. breathing red herings). I was told they had rights. I'm still told it's a matter of dislike of the smell of smoke that's the problem.

Smoking has not been banned because of the smell of smoke, or the sight of dirty ashtrays or streets, or because kissing a smoker is unpleasant. It's been banned -- in public -- because second-hand smoke is not compatible with normal breathing. The right to breathe over-rides the limited privelege to smoke.

There now. I've had my rave. I understand that remaing stressed about this subject is now my problem. I hope for a cure very soon.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 06:49 PM

I note that no one wanted to comment on demoracy. We are killing 1000s in it's name but can't apply it to our own in any form!
Democracy or hypocacy.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM

Do you really think that the smoking ban in pubs wasn't supported by most people, skipy? You might claim that it was an infringement of minority rights (that's another argument) but not that it wasn't a a decision supported by most people. Or rather, if you claim that you'd have to come up with some pretty convincing evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 07:58 PM

Backwoodsman, any chance of directing me to a site that shows a death certificate showing that someone's death was caused by second hand smoke or passive smoking ?

Unlikely, yet again you are talking through your ass. Nothing new in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:01 PM

Since the ban in England my wife and I have discovered pubs! We now go a couple of times a week to a smoke free homebrew pub with the most delicious beers you ever tasted and terrific food. No piped music, but live music nights in a separate room a couple of times a month that we are now going to attend when we can.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:39 PM

"Backwoodsman, any chance of directing me to a site that shows a death certificate showing that someone's death was caused by second hand smoke or passive smoking ?"

Man, that statement was just plain stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:43 PM

Great news, looks like the recession in the drinks trade is over. Welcomed news for the vintners trade, two hotpots a few times a week washed down with a couple of swift half's of homebrew.

Hail Hail the smoking ban


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:55 PM

I don't remember having the opportunity to vote on this particular piece of legislation, or seeing any poll results for that matter. For those who are happy with it, it's fine - the whingers have 'won'. Why are they still whinging I wonder? Why be gratuitously unpleasant to and about people who are no longer a problem for you? You didn't like it, now it's gone - there is no need whatsoever to rub our noses in the ashtray.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:08 PM

Ol' Smokey, have you seen any of these death certificates giving the cause of death as passive smoking or second hand smoke ?

They must be about somewhere as learned people above keep quoting them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:12 PM

That's just plain ignorant.

What part of lung cancer don't you understand? What do you think causes it? Serving fish & chips, maybe?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM

I expect the big tobacco companies have conspired to make them all disappear..


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:33 PM

Pardon my pedantry, but there is no evidence whatsoever that lung cancer is caused by smoking, merely that you stand a greater chance of dying from it if you smoke.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Stranger
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:37 PM

Yeah, sure. And the sky is falling, too. Try reading the side of your pack, than cough me up something green and solid.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:44 PM

Well, I expect you know best.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:46 PM

Ol' Smokey, maybe Stranger could back up this argument and sent us to a link to see one of these death certificates ?

Well if he can't then there isn't any proof to back up his case.

1 to us I'd say.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:00 PM

There is no argument - no-one has ever produced actual evidence of passive smoking being fatal.

Anyway, I'm off to blow smoke at some crippled orphan asthmatic children - I have a reputation to live up to here.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:09 PM

Me too, gonna waken up half the street with a cough or two. Well at least "Stranger" considers us environmentalists, I don't cough up green stuff do you ?

NITE NITE COUGH WELL.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:12 PM

No, I prefer to smoke it.

Yours wheezingly,

OS


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:16 AM

Death certificatesa don't say that people die of old age either - but when was the last time you met someone who'd lived forever (one thing's for sure, it wouldn't be a smsoker)?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:51 AM

"The argument against passive smoking is a very weak one in my opinion, as those who object to a smokey atmosphere are usually perfectly capable of removing themselves from it if they feel they are in any danger or discomfort."
Sums up all the selfish arrogance of every smoker I have ever spoken to on the subject.
Smoking in public is smelly, selfish, anti-social and lethal, both to the smoker and non-smoker alike.
Why should we have to "remove ourselves" because somebody wishes to pursue a dirty habit? I go into my local to have a drink and listen to good traditional music, not to inhale somebody else's toxic fumes.
A wholesale ban on public smoking has been in place in Ireland now for some years - it's a done deal and there is no chance of the law being rescinded,
It's rather amusing watching smokers in the UK and elsewhere running around like headless chickens at the threat of a permanent ban.
The last time I was in the UK it smelt like an old ashtray - welcome to the 21st century!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

theleveller, yes you may be able to quote facts and figures from Russia (Death certificatesa and a smsoker) but I do think they are looking proof in English.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:44 AM

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4998-passive-smoking-kills-one-bar-worker-a-week.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:54 AM

"Pardon my pedantry, but there is no evidence whatsoever that lung cancer is caused by smoking, merely that you stand a greater chance of dying from it if you smoke."

Well, apart from the statistical evidence, which is absolutely overwhelming (and which even your concession above understates), there is plenty of evidence that the tar component of cigarette smoke contains a multitude of carcinogenic compounds which can be isolated out and shown to cause mutation in living cells. The last time I heard, the number of such compounds found was well into double figures. I mean, what else can anyone do to convince you, bar pouring gallons of each substance into the lungs of volunteers and waiting for them to die?   You'll be telling me next that I can't prove that the moon isn't made of green cheese because only 99.68% of it has been surveyed so far.   It isn't pedantry you should be asking us to excuse - it's sheer, blind denial.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:04 AM

"Backwoodsman, any chance of directing me to a site that shows a death certificate showing that someone's death was caused by second hand smoke or passive smoking ?"

Don't need to, there's plenty of medical evidence and medical opinion supporting the smoking ban.

"Unlikely, yet again you are talking through your ass. Nothing new in that."

Ever heard the one about the pot and the kettle?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,THE ONE
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:52 AM

I have removed at least 20 thousand lungs from people in my job, i have yet to see a smokers lung the most soiled lungs are from them that live in towns even 5 year olds, the nice pinky lungs are from those from the country even 80 odd year olds


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:56 AM

"theleveller, yes you may be able to quote facts and figures from Russia (Death certificatesa and a smsoker) but I do think they are looking proof in English."

LOL. If picking up on my typing is your sole argument, Yorkie, I won't demur. It's pointless my getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed man/woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:11 AM

The bottom line is that more people wanted smoke free pubs than wanted the smoke-filled type. Majority rule. Democracy at work. And IF you get enough people who want to back to the old way of doing things you can have the law reversed. Good Luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Rustic Rebel
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:54 AM

The bottom line is that more people wanted smoke free pubs than wanted the smoke-filled type. Majority rule. Democracy at work. And IF you get enough people who want to back to the old way of doing things you can have the law reversed. Good Luck.

Are you saying you voted for the ban? Did you actually have a voice?

Bee-
You stated the bar owners are the whiners. And with every right to whine. Were they given a right to vote? Were they given the choice on how to run their own private-owned establishments? After all, they are the ones who pay taxes, insurances, mortgages, etc...

Here in Minnesota,(US) the ban has been in effect since Oct. 1 2007. We have had an intresting turn of events due to how the law reads.

There was an exemption put into the law for theatrical events. Smoking is allowed as a prop. Shakespear put it best~~The world is a stage and the people it's players
Bar owners have run with this exemption and are now doing theater nights in their bars. It has become a state wide event with more bars participating.
Now bar owners are being threatened with losing their licenses on alcohol and food. They are being threatened with $10,000.00 fines if they continue. But the show goes on because it is in the law!

Now a new bill is being entered into legislation attemping to give bar owners back their CHOICE whether they want smoking in their establishment or not.

If anyone is intersted- this is a good sight to read whats happening over here.http://freedomtoact.com/

To you folks here on this thread against smokers I just question why you have a problem with the rights of all people. Are there not enough pubs and bars around where there can be a compromise? Do you really want every bar for yourself whether you go into them or not? Jeez-Land of the Free~~~


Peace.
Rustic

P.S. I'm still with you on this one Skipy-You go man!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM

Its a typical bit of New Labour Bad legislation ! NOT properly thought out , and not letting anyone make a decision for them selves ! Thank You Nanny State

Oh yes - And 100 !


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:30 PM

I'm no fan of New Labour but, in fact, the impetus for the smoking Ban came from an E.C. Green Paper 'Towards a Europe free from tobacco smoke: policy options at EU level'

This concluded that
'a comprehensive smoke-free policy would bring the greatest health benefit to the population, and the evidence from around the world is that this option is viable and enforceable.'

A response to this Green Paper from The Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, a leading participant in the campaign to introduce smoke-free legislation for public places, stated that

- while starting the process to have Europe-wide legislative measures, Member States should be encouraged to adopt their own measures after due consultation in anticipation of European legislation as
"it would be important that a ban could be seen as having been discussed and decided upon by the people of each nation rather than being "imposed by the EU".

A test case to the ban in England as a "disproportionate interference" with their rights under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights is about to be brought by patients at a top security psychiatric hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:57 PM

Rustic Rebel - Actually I'm in north Texas but I plan to visit the smoke free London pubs in May. And I've supported similar laws here in Texas.

I'll ask again - what's so darn difficult about walking outside for a few minutes to smoke a cigarette so that it leaves the air inside clean enough for the rest of us to breathe? We'll save your seat at the bar.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 01:53 PM

I still can't see why some non-smokers still feel they have to victimize and try to insult people over this when they have, in fact, got what they wanted. It's rather like being back in the playground.

For my own part, I object to paying ludicrously inflated pub prices for drinks and then being expected to stand outside, so I no longer go in pubs. Everyone's a winner (except the landlord) so what's really your problem?

I believe those who desire it have a right to a smoke-free social environment in which to indulge their alcohol habit, I just don't think it should be forced on those who don't.

The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM

A little light reading :-

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke
http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol83/volume83.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/3235820.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2925633.stm
http://www.healthinsite.gov.au/topics/Passive_Smoking
http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/secondhandsmoke/a/secondhandsmoke.htm
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/bmj.38370.496632.8Fv3.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

I wonder why smokers automatically assume that the 'nanny state' is only there to protect smokers from themselves; part of their me-me-me philosophy, I suppose!
Personally I'm grateful for a 'nanny state' which protects me from muggers, rapists, murderers - and smokers.
The link between smoking and cancer has long been an established fact - whether smokers accept it or not.
If tobacco had only just been discovered it would have been automatically made illegal; if it wasn't the source of wealth for multi-billionaire companies it would now be illegal; if it wasn't highly addictive, most intelligent people would not smoke.
Apart from the health risks, cigarettes have the effect of turning the most kind and thoughtful individuals into arrogant, selfish morons, as to be witnessed on this and similar threads - reason enough to ban them IMO.
Both of my parents smoked and both of them developed cancer - I was lucky, I only became chronically bronchitic.
They had the excuse of not being in possession of the facts, we do not.
If for no other reason, the next few years will see a total banning of tobacco products, if for no other reason that the various health systems cannot go on coping with wholesale, self-inflictred illnesses.
LONG LIVE THE NANNY STATE!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:45 PM

"The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention."

Well, should we assume instead that all smokers are helpless and can't help forcing their habit on other people? Let's see. If you light a fag in the presence of other people you either wish to force it, don't give a monkeys about forcing it, or you can't help forcing it.   Which is it to be? Choose the one which is, in your opinion, the least infantile option and I'll adopt it from now on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:48 PM

"The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention."

'Byeeee.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Il' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:54 PM

I simply ask if they mind..


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:59 PM

smokers are pathetic and ignorant if they are upset that others may now live longer and healthier,take yer fags and f''= off


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM

So many hiding behind the label "Guest" brave lot aren't you!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

I'm scared of the lynch-mob..
Nice to have you back Skipy, can you hold the fort while I have me tea, there's a good chap?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

I've always wondered about "guests" who aren't even brave enough to stick with one assumed name on the internet. Do that really think y'all are going to hunt them down and cause bodily harm? We live hundreds - and sometimes thousands - of miles away from each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

It's no longer necessary to wash everything (including underwear) you wore to the pub after a couple of hours' (or less) wear because it reeks of smoke... does that help to reduce the carbon footprint?

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

I would like to assure all and sundry that I would never smoke whilst my head was up a lady's skirt, especially in the pub. Good manners cost nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM

Hey smoking guys, thought you might like to take a gander at what your lungs look like. Guess which are yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM

They are not mine, I have both of mine right here!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM

Not mine either, they don't look arrogant or moronic enough.

Dammit, now I'm hungry again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:10 AM

I note that no one wanted to comment on demoracy

I will quite happily take up that challenge, skipy. Democracy is all about the MAJORITY deciding what happens. Well, in this country it is, we don't have proportional representation. So, as the majority do not smoke, a decision has been taken to ban smoking where it interferes with the rights of said majority. It realy is quite simple and I don't undestand why you keep flogging this dead horse.

Now, seeing as I have taken up your challenge, can I ask why you did not answer mine? Did the pub(s) near you close or not?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM

Doesn't democracy include the right to breath clean air without the danger of having your lungs turned into lace curtains - who knows?
Favourite quote from a British newspaper when 'smoke free' areas were proposed for pubs.
"Having a smoke-free area in an enclosed building is like having a pee-free area in a swimming pool".
We got rid of them out of the bars, shops and workplaces in Ireland, now we've just got to stop them hanging round the doorways - it's on its way!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:50 AM

I have a friend who owns a pub (Free House) - terrific boozer, folk music and poetry nights, large selection of real ale, great food.

On the door it says (from before the ban) "No Smoking Inside. And no smoking ourtside the door either". He's packed morning (coffee) lunchtime and night.

He's packed every night. Try the Black Bull at Frosterley. (Weardale)

The free house real ale boozers in Sheffield with reasonably priced real ale are doing well. It isn't the smoking ban that's killing pubs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:23 AM

It will be interesting to see what happens with a pub in Market Rasen that is about to re-open. I will keep you updated.

News clip
Posh Red Lion will be most expensive in area - A MARKET Rasen pub will reopen within weeks, with lager banned from the bar and prices that are unashamedly the highest in town.
Brewer Tom Wood will only have real ales and cider on tap at the Red Lion, will not entertain music or gaming machines, has no space for a pool table and definitely won't be serving food.

He hopes his radical policy will ensure a more discerning clientelle and entice people out for a pint who have lost faith with the town's current outlets and want something completely different.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM

That shut the moaning buggers up Les. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

Well I have to admit John, that I would be willing to pay a higher price for my drinks for a pub that can offer something for decent honest people like you and me, without the smoking, piss artistry and general slob element that seem to frequent pubs these days :-)
I will have to ask the manager if he would allow accoustic music that doesn't attract the above mentioned groups :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:22 PM

The major factor in pub closures is the economic climate. Many people are having to choose where to spend their hard earned cash and more and more are spending less and less in the very many pubs with little to offer.

Brewer Tom Wood has the guts to put his money where my mouth is and I wish good luck to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

I was in a pub the other night where they were smoking and I said I didn't mind. It's time to bring back the smoking room as in ye olden days, me thinks. I don't smoke myself but I do think it's an infringment on human rights.

My doctor has just sent me a letter asking me to tell him if I smoke or not. I sent it back (as a non-smoker) telling him I smoke more than 60 a day. It'll be interesting what comes in the post next. I bet it's a whole load of junk mail about how to give up!!

Sal (not spending all night infront of the pc)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

We should all have the right to go where we please. Non-smokers were never forced into sitting in smokey pubs, it was entirely their own choice. Some folk clubs have been 'smokeless' for many years - an initiative which I applauded but generally avoided. It's only a small minority that really object, and I think they should be catered for, but I resent having the will of that minority imposed on me without having the opportunity to be part of the supposed democratic process from which it is alleged to have been decided. There is a possibility, though no proof, that passive smoking could be harmful; so are lions - I keep away from them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:36 PM

Smokers are the minority Ol'Smokey


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM

Those who couldn't care either way are by far the majority. Smokers are only a minority compared with non-smokers, most of whom couldn't give a toss. I believe that were it to be decided democratically, the vast majority of both would opt for a mixture of smoking and non-smoking pubs, and that would be a reasonable outcome giving everyone a free choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

Whatever Ol Smokey. You just continue your dream.

I run a concert venue and nobody would want anybody there smoking (100 people). I'll stick to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Yes Villan & I have nothing to do with folk music, folk clubs or festivals. However I AM SURE that if I did I would be able to attend a venue without smoking in it. My only wish is that a proportionate number of venues are set aside for those who do smoke. This ban has basically ruined my life (not that you give a shit!) my only recourse has been to withdraw my services from many of the activities that run in my village & others around me. Let the non smokers do the work I used to do.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

Why not try snuff? Take it wherever you want, and no hassles about getting up other people's noses.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:42 PM

Unless he sneezes it all over me LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:54 PM

"non-smokers, most of whom couldn't give a toss."

Where is your evidence for this? I can't think of anyone I've spoken to who's a non-smoker, who doesn't now relish the opportunity to go home not smelling like an ashtray, or to enjoy their meal without someone blowing smoke all over them.

Then there are the toxic fumes, 85% of which are released into the air around a smoker to be breathed in by others.

Then there is the high rate of asthma in this country. Many people's asthma is triggered by cigarette smoke, so many asthmatics were previously excluded from pubs. Maybe their lives were being ruined by smokers in the past...


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

They may relish the opportunity to go to the pub! but they are not going very often, my local is down over £6000 grand a month since the ban, the non smokers are just not turning up to replace the smokers who no longer go to the pub.
1000,000 pints a day sales less than this time last year, lowest beer sales since the year 1930!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:17 PM

Thanks Skipy. Those figures should be the answer to everyone on here.

Yes, one pub down over 6 grand a year. 1000,000 pints a day less than this time last year. All as a result of moaning by people who rarely even go into pubs !

Raise the taxes even higher on both please (I buy my fags and booze in France).


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:34 PM

No, 6 grand a month! not a year


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:38 PM

The evidence for my remark about majority opinion is purely personal, based on asking people if they mind if I smoke. It's all I've got to go on really, but I feel compelled to draw attention to the fact that out of all the members of this forum, only a tiny percentage have bothered to voice their opinion on this. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with having both smoking and non-smoking pubs, and everyone having a free choice? It would seem to me that in this case the fascists have won, and I think that is something we, as a society, should be very wary of and be fighting against - not childishly supporting merely for the sake of justifying your own prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey as well
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:04 PM

As far as I'm aware most concert venues have been smokeless for many years on account of the fire regulations. We are actually discussing pubs here in case anyone has forgotten..


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:02 AM

"I still can't see why some non-smokers still feel they have to victimize and try to insult people over this when they have, in fact, got what they wanted. It's rather like being back in the playground."
Normally my reaction to an addict would be one of sympathy for somebody with a major problem.
In this case, I have spent a lifetime having the effects of smoking inflicted on me, with the inevitable consequences to my health and comfort; now, when I can see a light at the end of the tunnel - I am invited to piss off to another pub.
Smokeless pubs - the bar staff working in these places don't get the choice to go somewhere else, and they spend a good slice of their lives in a fouled-up atmosphere - are you going to invite them to get another job? I worked as a maintenance electrician in London pubs for seven years and saw close up the nicotine slime deposited on the walls and ceilings from this pastime. I can still remember thinking "I was in the pub last night - my clothes must smell like that, and my lungs must be full of this shit". I was present on a job when a painter washing down a ceiling got some of the water in his eye and was blinded.
"The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention."
Yeah; right - read through this thread!
Personally, I get a degree of satisfaction hearing smokers whinge about "freedom" and "individual rights"; they should think themselves lucky at not being presented with a bill for the damage and injury they've caused.
Rights and freedoms come with responsibility - get used to it and get another hobby.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM

GUEST,Watney

(I buy my fags and booze in France).

Where do you get your health care?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:21 AM

Same place you get yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:12 AM

Ol' Smokey - People say they don't mind you smoking out of courtesey as well as indifference, so how can you tell whether they care or not? Besides, even if, as you say, the majority do not care then surely the number of people who do care one way or another is the best indication? If so, and we assume, say, 10% of each faction do care, then the number of non-smokers who care is still far higher than the number of smokers who do. Simple statistics.

As to what is wrong with having both smoking and non-smoking pubs. Nothing at all. Makes me wonder why, out of the 30+ pubs near me in the 40 years I have been drinking, none catered for the non-smoker.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

If i can buy patches to stop the craving for a fag (i maintain i don't smoke) would I get a buzz from the patch? Also would a patch calm a stressed non-smoker?

And another thing, if obesity is also causing a drain on the health service why haven't they invented a patch for a craving for food?

Sal


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

That last point Dave made is the key one - if smokers had been to the fore in demanding that pubs made it possible for them to smoke without inflicting their smoke on other users and on staff it might have been a different story. But that just didn't happen in any of the countries where bans have been introduced.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

I've already accepted that I can no longer smoke in pubs. You can be happy with that situation or not, it does not affect me any more. Silly jibes and spurious logic are now nothing more than a bit of amusement as far as I'm concerned. I am far more bothered about keeping my habit away from children, as it is a bad influence. They are the innocent ones, not non-smoking bigots who are well able to protect themselves if they wish. I wonder how many of you are happy to, for example, drink in front of your children, being as how it's so harmless and not a social problem or threat..


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:49 PM

I know that I'd never have seen any reason not to drink in the presence of my children. Getting drunk, now that is a very different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

A question of degree I think.
I apologise for bringing up alcohol, as it were. It's not that relevant here and would only lead to more silliness if one were to start comparing addictions and social effects. There are responsible drinkers as well as responsible smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:11 PM

"I've already accepted that I can no longer smoke in pubs. You can be happy with that situation or not, it does not affect me any more. Silly jibes and spurious logic are now nothing more than a bit of amusement as far as I'm concerned."

That's a load of total bollocks, Ol' Dopey. If it doesn't affect you, and "silly jibes and spurious logic are now nothing more than a bit of amusement", why have you spent so much time whining about the ban on this thread?

"There are responsible drinkers as well as responsible smokers."

Yep, and if smokers had behaved more responsibly, and removed themselves from the pub when they needed a coffin-nail, the ban wouldn't have been necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

I'm not whining about the ban, I am forced to accept it. Find yourself another good cause, this one's finished.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:29 AM

GOOD


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 05:29 AM

Ol' Smokey, Did you not realise that nobody else here is allowed an opinion only the Backwardone ?

Yeah it's the bible according to him all the way here.

A legend in his own lunchtime.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

Dickhead.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:25 AM

Definition from Dictionary.com "backwoodsman"   

A person of uncouth manners, rustic behaviour or speech.

Now how do I not find this surprising ! Very apt.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 09:03 AM

Find yourself another good cause, this one's finished

Agreed as well. But it is skipy that keeps starting these threads - tell him!!!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 09:05 AM

Oh, and I forgot, skipy - you still haven't answered my qusetion. Has your local closed?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:32 AM

And don't confuse that "GUEST, guest" with the other one who is worth arguing with (even though I disagree with her).

Pretty bad manners to use someone else's label. Even when it's a sill;y label like "guest".


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:45 AM

"A person of uncouth manners, rustic behaviour or speech.
Now how do I not find this surprising ! Very apt."

Flaming and trolling, especially by anonymous 'Guests' are very childish behaviour indeed. Grow up Gi-Gi, and get a life, you sad little no-dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM

For what it's worth (not much, apparently) I thought Skipy's original point about pub closures and falling business was a perfectly valid one and is glaringly obvious to anyone who regularly does gigs in pubs. As I said before, and it's still just as true, despite the opinion of Backdoorman and his ilk, the ban is not only the last nail in the coffin (albeit not the sole cause) for smaller 'community' type pubs, it has already had a marked effect on the number of available pub gigs for musicians working at the lower end of the market - whether or not they are smokers and regardless of their opinion on it. Any band playing in a pub has to generate enough extra sales for it to be worth the landlord paying them, and in many pubs the goalposts have now moved that bit too much. None of this bothers the brewers of course, they no longer own the majority of pubs and people can and do drink far more at home - it is the entertainment business that will suffer, although hopefully it may ultimately adapt and change. Don't bother shouting me down now though, come back in a year and tell me I'm wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

The smoking ban did not make one bit of difference to the pubs in this small community in the West of Ireland.
Any closures here can be traced to an increased presence of police on the roads late at night (now spreading to mid-day the following day), thus making the rural population virtually immobile at night.
If the ban does bring about closures, it will be yet another 'victory' for the smoker, sulking at home because he can't manage without his fix for the couple of hours necessary to let drinkers drink in an unpolluted atmosphere.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:41 PM

OK, I guess some of you just weren't satisfied with the last thread that hashed this to death a few months ago. You just have a need for abuse. So let's go.

First off, with regard to smokers rights. You have none where it concerns my health, got it. I am not doing anything, it is your action in smoking that is threat to me. Hence, you have no right to poison me. And it is poison. Those that act like second hand smoke is not dangerous to folks are akin to the Holocaust deny'ers. You are wrong, period. Just go back and read the links in earlier posts.

As to me leaving if I don't like your smoke, I refer you to my first post. It is not me that needs to leave. I am simply here, you want to take an action that poisons yourself, that is fine. But you may not poison me. I am not leaving so you can poison yourself. You leave. It is you that wants to take the action.

As to pubs closing, .... bullshit. The pubs and folk clubs that would close on this basis were on the verge anyway. And if the sum total of your support for the music we all say we love is predicated on whether you can poison you and the folks around you, then we are better off without you. You are self centered with no regard for others. Please, ..... leave. We will survive.

As to the lot of you that flit over to the continent, buy your poison, and have house parties, once again I say....the smoking is more important than the music. Please continue to do what you are doing. You are not missed.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM

Let's all blame the police then; they've no business harrassing innocent drinkers like that, it's an infringement of human rights. Perhaps you should protest about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

Smokey....... Either you are ignoring what I just wrote, or you think that obfuscation will work here? The drinker doesn't poison me by sitting beside me drinking. I can't get drunk just by sitting next to him while he is drinking. I won't get sclerosis of the liver because he drinks.

Admit it. Your position is morally, physiologically, and intellectually bankrupt. You might want to invest in a dictionary to look all those words up.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

I'm not actually sure what you think my position is Mick, but you certainly don't appear to understand it very well, or what I've said. My last post wasn't directed at you, and it wasn't meant to obfuscate anything, it was just a tongue-in-cheek remark I should probably have kept to myself. I've no intention of answering any of your comments, it would be a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 06:55 PM

albeit not the sole cause

Thank you. Exactly what we have been saying all along. The pubs were on the decline in the first place.

come back in a year and tell me I'm wrong

I already have, albeit a bit early. I said earlier in the post that none, repeat none, of the 30 or so pubs near me have closed. It is 9 months since the ban. I have asked skipy if his local has closed but he seems remarkably quiet on that front.

For what it's worth I do believe that smoker should be catered for. Provided they don't infringe my rights to go in a pub of my own choosing and breathe clean air and on the condition that they do not put the lives of the staff at risk. It would, however, involve investment in very sophisticated air filtration systems and high cost building work. Something that the drink industry simply were not prepared to do. The brewers, or more correctly the big businesses behind them, are interested only in fat profits, not peoples welfare. If you want to blame someone for your nicotine withdrawal symptems, blame them instead of the non smokers or the government.

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

Of course pubs were on the decline, that's why some are having such a hard time with the smoking ban.

I blame no-one but myself for any withdrawal symptoms I might experience, or any other consequence of my smoking. However, when I started going in pubs smoking was permissible, and had been for hundreds of years. It was incumbent on the objecting non-smoker to register disapproval, whether by way of withholding custom or making complaints or suggestions to the owner. Post-ban, it is incumbent on the smoker to register their disapproval. I do that in the least irritating way I can, by not going to the pub. I still can't reckon why anyone should have a problem with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:25 PM

Skipy and Smokey are sounding more and more like the Shambles every day.

Please, please, not another eight year obsessive lost cause campaign.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM

Please note, I DO take offence at the above statement, but I assume that is what you wanted!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:00 AM

I'm afraid I've no idea what he's on about..


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:46 AM

Still not answered my question, skipy, although I did respond to your point on democracy.

Ol' Smokey - I agree with what you are doing. Vote with your feet rather than on the Mudcat where it does no good at all. Don't let it spoil your enjoyment though - There are many ways of enjoying gigs and having drink in a pub without smoking - honest!

Happy Easter eveyone.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

I can't get over how you guys are bitching at eachother like a load of girls!!!

(Ha that'll set off again, i dare say)

Pubs in my part of North Herefordshire are empty these days because a. you can't drink and drive, and b. cos even when you're there you can't 'ave a faaaag! A lot of the pubs have turned into restaurant type pubs where it's so expensive only those 'well to do's' can venture to them anyway. God knows what people do now. I suppose you go to the Morrisons, buy cheap beer and sit infront of the telly or internet.

Sad ol' loife 'ere in 'erefordshire.

Saaaal


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:01 PM

For what it's worth there are a number of reasons why the pub trade has saw a reduction in profits and patrons.

It's not all down to the smoking ban, so stop fighting.

Yes the smoking ban has had an effect, but so has cheaper alcohol in supermarkets. Drinking habits have also changed. More men now enjoy a glass of wine with their partner at home in the evenings than going down the local.

Then you have the changes in social life. A lot of couples have large mortgages, two cars on the drive and a child or two heading to university. So the days of the bread winner throwing his house keeping on the kitchen table are well and truly over. Both salaries go directly into the bank and the wife knows what you are earning !

Public houses now target those with the extra cash and no commitments, the 18 to 25 age group, who meet up in a house before they head out and kill a few bottles of supermarket wine, then head into a pub with a jukebox or disco and burn the night up.

Pubs can not stay open selling a few pints to the like of me of a night, employing staff, heating and electricity costs plus crippling council rates.

So it's not just the smoking ban, it's a load of things.

So stop fighting and bitching.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM

By the way, if you want to stop smoking get your doctor to prescribe Champix, if they worked for me they will work for anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM

Thanks Dave, I appreciate that. To be honest, the ban itself had precious little direct effect on me personally, and my observations are mostly based on personal local experience which I appreciate may not necessarily apply in more affluent areas. There are quite a few 'pub bands' in my area/social circle though, and they have definitely felt the pinch. I've not seen any pubs literally closing due to the smoking ban itself - life and business are just not that simple, but the effect round here is undeniable, and unless something else comes along to rescue the trade there is no doubt the situation will lead to closures - the economics are simple to work out, and the few landlords I know personally can clearly see it coming. Lock-ins are on the increase as a consequence, and of course that's when the ashtrays come out..

I don't blame non-smokers for any of this though, and I don't see why they should blame me, though I appreciate only a minority are that small-minded. I always credited yer average folky with a lot more intelligence, tolerance and social awareness than some of the contributers here have demonstrated. One is forced to wonder if their agenda is actually what it claims to be.

Happy Easter to you too.

OS


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:26 AM

Victor - We cannot drive to pubs. We cannot smoke in pubs. And now you want us to stop bitching and fighting? Sheesh, what fun CAN we have then?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM

Perhaps we should do that in the street as well.. although I'm really getting too old for all this outdoor life. I reckon you can have too much fresh air and exercise.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM

Dave that is what we have this forum for ! be careful not to spill your drink over the keyboard, and please don't flick your ash on the carpet.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:26 AM

"I reckon you can have too much fresh air and exercise."
That's for us to decide, and why we've got a smoking ban.
One word of acknowledgment of the damage you've done to our comfort and health (and lives) might evoke a bit more sympathy; as it is - I hope it pisses with rain every time you feel like a fag.
Take a lesson from the Irish and stop whining - even the smokers here appear to think its not a bad idea - as can be seen by driving through towns in the early hours of the morning and witnessing the little knots of illegal drinkers standing in the street smoking.
Jim Carroll
PS Not on a crusade - I would just like to stay alive a little longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:52 AM

"Take a lesson from the Irish and stop whining - even the smokers here appear to think its not a bad idea".

Has an official spokesperson for Irish Smokers arrived on the thread ?

Takings are also down among vintners in Ireland according to the figures I seen published. I never read anything from the pro smoking group to say smokers in Ireland support it. Possibly the people you seen standing in "Little Knots" could have been snorting or injecting drugs ?

Cork, Dublin and Limerick have some of the highest figures for drug abuse in Europe.

It always amuses me how some people suddenly find their voice.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

Jim, I neither expect nor want your sympathy. Don't you think it's just a wee bit purile to hope it rains every time I want a smoke? Let me know which pubs you intend to visit; I'll avoid them with the greatest of pleasure.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,OSps
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM

Pardon my spelling - smoke in my eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

Cork, Dublin and Limerick have some of the highest figures for drug abuse in Europe.
Does that include cigarettes? Otherwise -so what - Dublin and Limerick have the highest murder rates in Ireland - what's your point?
No newly found voice here - I've always had an opinion on cigarettes - I've known enough people die from them.
I live in Ireland and drink in Irish pubs - I don't speak for anybody but myself and I say what I see.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

Let me sum it all up then:

Fresh air - Good
Tobacco smoke - Bad

Isn't that about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

Better if it was:

Fresh air - stay alive

Tobacco smoke - kills you


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

Wesley wins the 'design a teeshirt' competition - at least his is accurate.

Can't help wondering why Ireland has little knots of illegal drinkers standing in the street in the early hours though, particularly with the increased police presence on the roads which you mentioned earlier. In my part of the world the landlord locks the doors and pretends it's a private party. That way, indoor smoking is 'legal'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:38 AM

People here - certainly in my town - appear to have accepted the fact that smoking is anti-social; a problem you appear to have trouble grasping.
A few months after the ban was introduced a crowd from one of the local bars went to Lewes for a week-end out. During the evening one of them was discovered outside the pub smoking, and when he was told it was ok to smoke inside he replied "it doesn't feel right any more!"
A few honestly answered questions might sort all this out.
Fact - smoking kills - it says so on the box.
Fact - passive smoking is unpleasant to the non-smoker and potentially detrimental to the health of anybody in the vicinity - the first questions I am asked by my doctor when I visit him (regularly) for my respitory problems are, "do you smoke?" and "do you spend any time in a smokey atmosphere?"
Question - do you accept the general opinion that smoking damages the health of smoker and non-smoker alike - if not, on what grounds?
Question - If you do, how do you justify your insistence on being allowed to continue to endanger the well being (and even the lives) of others?
As I said before - get used to it - it's here to stay!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:01 PM

I have accepted the smoking ban, and previously made that clear.

If you'd actually read what I've said instead of making wildly inaccurate assumptions about me based on your own obvious prejudices and reinterpretations, you wouldn't need to ask any of that. Have you ever stopped gloating long enough to consider how the ban might affect elderly or disabled smokers?

I see what you're getting at now regarding the after-hours drinkers going outside for a smoke, despite risking the publican's licence - thanks for clarifying that. It does, however, bear out my claim that not all smokers are as inconsiderate/selfish/homicidal or whatever as you claim them to be. Or are you perhaps implying that the smokers where you live are morally superior in some way?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:19 PM

Leadfingers pointed out to me last night that the hall that I have been chair of for the last 12 years! Where we hold follkforms is no smoking!
As I told him last night I have not smoked in there during the 18 years of running the concert! Nor did I ever smoke during any form of visit (of which there where 1000s, or any committeee meetings).
However just to keep it clear, tonight I resigned, non smoker required to take my place!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:21 PM

Not good enough Skipy - we have to be sorry, admit we are wrong, morally bankrupt, and - well just generally inferior. It is our fault that these people now have nothing to moan about, and we should be forced to take the consequences. Merely staying away from them is just not enough; downright selfish in fact. I'm contemplating flailing myself with birch twigs and drinking battery acid - come on now, where's your social conscience?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM

There are many other social involvements that I have been running for 20+ years that I can still pull down, month by month they wil get less help from me.
Megam L knows all about me, well I assume so from her post!
Skipy
In open space, a pleasant helpful person, backed into a corner, I'll rip for fucking throat out & shit down it!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:35 PM

I really do tire of these folks that start out moaning about smokers rights, and how the banning of their habit will be the downfall of modern society, and how they are so mistreated. Then when they are thoroughly discredited on the issue, they start trying to take high road victim status as though they are being wronged. Smokey . .. Skipy . .. methinks thou dost protest too loudly. let it go. It's over. Go smoke your brains out. Have a ball. Just don't make me walk through it or smell it. Keep your poisons to yourself and enjoy the hell out of them. That is your business, and nobody cares. Do it. Enjoy it. Just keep it away from folks that haven't expressed a desire to be around it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:06 PM

Right you had your say. A 20 packet of cigarettes has a production cost of 23 pence in the UK.

Did you hear 23 pence leaving the factory.

They sell for £4.76 over the counter. As the government increases the cost of them annually and let's say smokers stopped in great numbers, the government would have to tax the ass of all the moaners above. It would be worth it !


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Mohd Najmul Alam Shabuj
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:33 PM

Considering how much money the Government earn from cigarettes they will no doubt find another product to tax just as heavily to fill the gap since the smoking ban ( hopefully they could tax that real ale shit) then again who drinks it ? The ban will cause people to smoke less. If smokers boycott the bars and restaurants because of the smoking ban then the Government will lose the revenue they make from the alcohol sales as well! (please smokers do this and the government will raise income tax) What will they tax next?

Now the sale of cigarettes go right down where will all the lost revenue come from? possibly ID cards.

This is the "Nanny State gradually mutating into the "Big Brother State". Is this really happening in Britain? What right does the Government have to dictate where we can smoke? I don't smoke now but I am against the Government's increasing tendency to interfere with our personal lives.

Possibly the government could get of their bottoms and do something positive like chasing half those teenage mums living off our taxes into work and take the benefits of lazy people who decide not to work and just scrounge instead. Or better still, move in on those fat bottomed ladies who live in their local bakery filling their ass with cake and filling hospital beds or say they are too fat to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:42 PM

GUEST,Guest

As the government increases the cost of them annually and let's say smokers stopped in great numbers, the government would have to tax the ass of all the moaners above.

Not to mention the cost of pensions for all those ex-smokers who would be living longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:00 PM

Like I said before, the fascists have had their little win. It doesn't bother me personally that I can't smoke in pubs, and I don't think smokers should have any more or less rights than anyone else. It's a small minority of non-smokers who seem to be really getting wound up about this, and I can't for the life of me see why, when they have been given what they want on a plate without having to lift a finger to bring it about democratically. Obviously they want to feel superior, but surely they can do that quietly and without resorting to the playground mentality that they are exhibiting here. I'd like to know if they are prepared to treat disabled and elderly smokers in this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:11 PM

There are 194 posts on this thread. At least 38 of them are from GUEST,Ol' Smokey.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:12 PM

You are really a piece of work. So let's see if I get this right. You seem to be implying that I should be morally conflicted by letting an elderly or disabled person poison me instead of a young healthy person? I am feeling superior because I don't want your carcinogens?

As to your assertion that smokers got something for nothing, not lifting a finger to get it democratically? I assume that you elect the officials that make the rules, no? They will be held accountable by the electorate at some point for their decisions, yes?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:24 PM

Those are remarkably convenient conclusions to jump to Mick.

Snail, the only reason I've hung about here is that I really, really enjoy winding up bigoted twats when I've nothing better to do. Let's face it, they could have ignored me if they wanted, I'm not compulsory :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM

You said, and I quote:
Obviously they want to feel superior, but surely they can do that quietly and without resorting to the playground mentality that they are exhibiting here. I'd like to know if they are prepared to treat disabled and elderly smokers in this way.


Not jumping to any conclusion when it is your words that I am referring to.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:34 PM

So you are then? Fair enough, I just wondered.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:36 PM

OK then, champ, perhaps you could enlighten me as to what conclusion I should come to, based on the quote?

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:46 PM

Nothing I've said has been specifically designed to make you come to any conclusion Mick, that's the point. You are, however, as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. Pardon me if I ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:50 PM

So then your injecting of the elderly and the disabled into the thread wasn't put there to elicit sympathy for your position?

I think we will just agree to disagree. But as long as you put that stuff out there Smokey, it will get a reply. There is not a justification for smokers inflicting their smoke on non smokers. You have every right to smoke your brains out, as long as you don't make me be exposed to it in a public place.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 10:07 PM

I thought they deserved a mention and some consideration, as their existence seemed to be ignored. The ban has been more of an inconvenience to them than most, those who frequent pubs at least. Sympathy for my 'position' is unnecessary. I do not inflict my smoke where it is not wanted, and do not require any justification for my behaviour, as it harms no-one. By that I do not mean that passive smoking is harmless, lest I should be misinterpreted yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 04:03 AM

"I'm contemplating flailing myself with birch twigs and drinking battery acid"
No need Smokey - an indication that you 'might' have been a tad thoughtless in the past would suffice.
"Fascists" "bigots" - won't hold my breath for an answer to my questions, or an apology - oh, I forgot - I'm not able to nowadays.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 05:50 AM

I expect the disabled and elderly non-smokers are perfectly capable of removing themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 08:08 AM

"There are 194 posts on this thread. At least 38 of them are from GUEST,Ol' Smokey."

Not bad for somebody who claims not to care whether smoking's allowed in pubs or not.

"Leadfingers pointed out to me last night that the hall that I have been chair of for the last 12 years! Where we hold follkforms is no smoking!
As I told him last night I have not smoked in there during the 18 years of running the concert! Nor did I ever smoke during any form of visit (of which there where 1000s, or any committeee meetings).
However just to keep it clear, tonight I resigned, non smoker required to take my place!"

Words like 'cut', 'nose', 'spite' and 'face' spring to mind. Not to mention 'childish', 'hysterical' and 'over-reaction'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 04:39 PM

Words like 'pot' kettle' and 'black' spring to mind. I've already explained twice why I'm still here, why are you? Perhaps if you didn't take yourselves so seriously, you wouldn't be such ripe targets for having the piss taken..


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM

There are now 207 posts on this thread. 11 from Backwoodsman and at least 44 from Ol' Smokey.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:35 PM

I expect he's too drunk to type :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

"I expect he's too drunk to type :-)"

Can't be me you're talking about. For health reasons, I'm teetotal (really). :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 06:06 AM

What an ill-tempered thread this is!

Yes, Dublin, Cork and Limerick have horrifying drug abuse levels. I'm not sure quite how this relates to the smoking ban, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

My apologies BWM, I was primarily being facetious at the repeated production of statistics. None of this is actually personal, but it amuses me how certain people have, by quoting me out of context, misunderstanding and/or misinterpreting my words, invented a character of their own design that is supposed to be me, and then proceeded to throw metaphorical bricks at it. All without knowing anything about me whatsoever. By the way, it's a proven fact that 37.21% of statistics are just made up out of thin air.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM

LOL!

I think you've caused your own notoriety O'S, by both posting as a 'Guest' (a description I dislike as guests are, in most social scenarios, usually present by invitation, rather than simply imposing themselves on the members, as 'Guests' are able to do on this forum) and indulging in deliberate mischief and (dare I say it without attracting accusations of loutishness and rusticism) good old-fashioned Shit-Stirring, in your posts - I know, I've stupidly done some myself in past threads.

By the things you've posted, you've quite deliberately invited 'certain people' (that's to say 'those you have yourself targetted') to "quote you out of context, misunderstand and/or misinterpret you words, invent a character of their own design that is supposed to be you, and then proceed to throw metaphorical bricks at it. All without knowing anything about you whatsoever". You know that very well, it's been your aim all along to piss people off, so why complain when you succeed and they retaliate?

It's good fun metaphorically opening a door, lobbing in a hand-grenade and closing the door again. Unfortunately, when you then post something worth reading, with good sense or genuine humour in it, those you have stirred up are less likely to give you credit for it (assuming they even bother to read it). And I suspect that's where you're at now - an intelligent guy (or gal) who, through his or her own design, has little or no credibility.

Very sad. I'm sure you have a lot to say that's very worthwhile, and a great deal to contribute to healthy debate. Shame some of us won't be taking a blind breath of notice of anything else you have to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM

You're quite right BWM, but let's face it, this is not a healthy debate and was never going to be. Nor am I complaining, it's what I expected.

I did, however, recently stumble on your personal reason for feeling so strongly about the subject. You have my sincere sympathy - and a degree of empathy in fact, as I recently went through a similar experience, albeit unrelated to smoking.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM

In Northern Europe,one of every 10 men will die before age 70 and 40% of these deaths will be from tobacco. In contrast, in Western Europe of 10 men aged 35, 3 will die before age 70, and only a third of these deaths will be from tobacco.

Smoking is not often seen as a direct and fatal threat to health due to the long delay between cause and fatal effect. For example, the risk of lung cancer - the main cause of death from tobacco - is higher among those who started before 20 than among those who started later on.

The Surgeon General has estimated that since 1985 tobacco caused around 20% of all US deaths. Smoking is now the number 2 killer of all people in the USA.

Still in 2008, cigarettes and tobacco are big business in the developing economies of the new EU countries as Western and more enlightened governments realise the true and unpalatable cost of smoking and create adverse environments for the tobacco trade. However, the tobacco products manufacturer Philip Morris were keen to point out to the Czech government recently in a report to justify the relaxation of smoking restrictions there, smoking is economically beneficial to a country's finances.

Revenues from tobacco tax make it clear that smoking is good for government finances and it is not surprising that the relatively poorer countries of the European Union are not falling over themselves to tighten up the tobacco trade.

Smoking is extremely good economics for governments is borne out by its reliability to dramatically reduce life expectancy – so as to enable a natural culling of the elderly and a great saving on health care for them as well as retirement housing cost. This could well balance out the cost of medical care for smoking-related illnesses for the younger population.

However, there is even better news for governments, who in addition to wanting to keep old people off their books, are keen to reverse populations growth trends. This news is provided in the form of the report of the British Medical Association (BMA) in February 2008 which confirms that both passive and active smoking have a serious impact on men getting their pricks stiff.

Smoking compromises the ability to have a family and parents who smoke inflict great harm in respect of the health of their born and foetal-stage children.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 10:50 PM

GUEST,Ol' Smokey

My apologies BWM, I was primarily being facetious at the repeated production of statistics.

Just responding to your assertion that "It's a small minority of non-smokers who seem to be really getting wound up about this". You seem to be getting pretty wound up yourself judging by the number of posts.

Have some more statistics -

http://www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/health_news/240604smoke.html
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7226/53


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 11:57 PM

Then I would recommend not judging it by the number of posts, as it is blatantly a poor indicator. Perhaps you'd like to elicit yet another out of me by replying to this one?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 05:01 AM

"What an ill-tempered thread this is!"
This appears to be a side-effect of having to desist from smoking.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 06:31 AM

I could do with a shag!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:23 AM

GUEST,Ol' Smokey

Perhaps you'd like to elicit yet another out of me by replying to this one?

OK. Would you like to comment on the links I posted yesterday and the others from 19 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM ?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM

Ol' Smokey, I'm not sure who you are (actually I never heard of you until I stumbled upon this thread) but I was reading what you wrote about your views on the rights of smokers and liked what I read. I admire your stance and philosophy on life. I also admire the composure of which you respond to those who are hopelessly patriotic to a "Big Brother" of a government. When someone like Jim C or Backwoodsman says nasty things to you, rather than demean the person (that would be too easily done) you simply respond with civility and reason... this is even better! It pulls the pants down on the bad ass and shows them that there IS life outside of that small minded world they tend to gather in.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:34 AM

Funny enough, Jim Carroll, I was just thinking about ill temper and smoking yesterday. I had suddenly put together two facts about a few different friends - they were very edgy, and they were smokers.

In my experience (and yours may, of course, be different), the smokers I know and encounter are often nervy and on edge, and the non-smokers calmer.

The question of whether most non-smokers are exercised about smokers smoking is another interesting one. I've heard many more positive comments about the ban on smoking in pubs than I would have expected.

Again, in my experience, the people who get angry are those who feel that their right to smoke supercedes the right of others not to share their smoke.

I'm sometimes quite surprised by those who get angry. One of the most radical people I know, who has spent years in jail for his political actions, is so infuriated by the ban that he won't go to pubs, but instead drinks at home. He's the last person I would have expected to think that a working man's or woman's right to health was subsidiary to his own right to recreational inhalation.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:27 AM

Thompson, I very much appreciate your level approach and post. I have seen the same phenomenon among labor activists here in the States. While it is understandable given the fact that most smokers here are working class, yet still surprising given that these same folks will walk a picket line over Health and Safety issues in the workplace. But the battle for the minds is being one as fewer and fewer smokers are out there annually.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 02:25 PM

Snail:
You are confusing correlation with causation, but having said that, please note I have never claimed that smoking is safe. It has merely been inferred by those who apparently feel the need to argue against it. Admittedly, I gave them the opportunity to do that; it is a way of exposing people's 'true colours' and I get some cheap amusement out of it.

Guest Guest:
Thank you for that - note the posts immediately after your own and see how they are now trying to emulate the same qualities :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

Sorry about that, forgot to put my name in...


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM

Smokey, once again you make a weak attempt at taking some twisted sort of high ground. Why don't you quit moaning, and let it go. You started out trying to somehow make folks that don't want your poisons foisted on them in public places be the bad guys and over reactors. Your position is discredited, and you continue to mope around talking about folks that simply want to breathe clean air as though they are the dolts here. There is no defense of your position. It isn't about pubs closing, it isn't about your rights, it isn't about free speech, it isn't about government inferfering where they shouldn't. It is about keeping your vile poison away from folks that are just out and about living their life. Conversely, on your property, so long as it doesn't interfere with others, please feel free to smoke your brains out. I hope you have cartons stored for future use.

Give it a rest,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 03:23 PM

Mick, do I note a hint of tension?

I actually started out only to agree with Skipy on the subject of pub closures.

You'll be pleased to learn I'm happy and well rested, content in the knowledge that my vile poison is harming no-one but myself. I take full responsibility for my own addiction and I'm well aware of the consequences. There is no defence of my 'position', because there is nothing for you to attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM

Nice try from a fairly simple person. I am not tense at all, but I do tire of the constant attempts to mitigate your position. You will get no free ride. Any time you attempt to shift it away from you and your positions, I will drag it back. It helps keep me relaxed. I will do all I can to shift the perception of smoking from some harmless bad habit that poor old smokers should just be able to do, to what it is. And it is a poisonous, vile practice that should be restricted to those places where its practice will not, in any way, subject unwilling and unsuspecting men, women and children to its poisons.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM

So.. who am I, and what is my position? You seem to be an authority on the subject and obviously a man of great intellect - please enlighten me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 04:51 PM

Mick, what is your position on the Doughnut Brigade ?

Have you ever sat in a single isle aircraft beside a 30 stone sweatbox ?

Is that not offensive ?

Have you ever tried walking along a street in a hurry and met a woman with six asses taking up the whole pavement ?

And then there is the drain on the Health Service due to the "Dig their graves with their teeth brigade" blocking up waiting rooms due to their greed for food intake.

And finally we have the "I am too fat to work brigade" they live of our taxes.


What weight are you Mick ?

Think before you make statements such as

"You will get no free ride. Any time you attempt to shift it away from you and your positions, I will drag it back".

Others may have the same intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 05:12 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the switch ISP brigade at its finest.

This will be my last post here so have fun.

None of those things, GG2, are hazardous to your health. You may not like them, but they do not inflict physical harm on you for simply being in public.

Peace out,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 05:17 PM

Nifty getout Mick, but it aint right.. although you've cast enough doubt on it to save your face - well done.

Actually I was almost suffocated by a big fat lass once - it was only the fact that I was smoking that saved me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM

Ol' Smokey (incognito)

You are confusing correlation with causation

I just passed on the links. Tell the United States Surgeon General, the World Health Organisation, the British Medical Association, the California Department of Health, the Environment Protection Agency, the British Medical Journal, BUPA that they are "confused".

You are in denial Ol' Smokey. Typical addictive behaviour. You think that you are taking the piss but you are actually involved in an exercise of self justification. Not to me or Jim or Backwoodsman or Big Mick but to yourself. You know in your heart that you are wrong but your addiction has such a strong hold on you that you cannot admit the truth, even to yourself. Nicotine has you by the throat and is not just screwing up your body but your mind as well. It isn't too late. You can stop if you can find the strength.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:45 PM

They are not confused TS, they are presenting statistics. My remark was directed at you, not them.

Perhaps you'd tell me what I'm denying? What am I trying to justify? What am I wrong about?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:44 AM

"Sorry about that, forgot to put my name in... "

Join the forum as a member OS, then you won't have to remember. Also, you might get some credibility amongst members. You've obviously still got at least part of a brain, despite the addiction, why not do something useful with it?

Till then, you're just another troll, nothing constuctive to contribute, just provocative comments posted with the sole intention of winding people up - not my judgment there, you said it yourself, just here to 'piss people off' (seems like a thousand posts ago.....).

I'm outta here too, sick and tired of providing free entertainment for idiot addicts. And I've got a gig tonight to rehearse for - in a lovely, busy, smoke-free pub.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:44 AM

Ol' Smokey, don't get brought into debates with the Backwardman. He has already made a total balls out of himself on another thread in which he attacked drug users, only to be told publicly that two people (that once called him a friend) had drug addiction problems within their own families.

So besides a big home goal, his attack was the usual feet in first and no one else is allowed an opinion or viewpoint only him.

Please take my advice and just totally ignore his comments, let him dig big deep holes with his teeth, it's what he is good at.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:12 AM

"Perhaps you'd tell me what I'm denying? "
You are denying - or at least, failing to admit, that your habit causes offence and does actual physical harm to yourself and others.
The first I can live with - should you wish to 'shuffle off this mortal coil', I would be happy to steady the chair while you tie the rope - your choice.
The contempt with which you regard the comfort and well being of others - that's something else!
Well put Snail.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:50 AM

That's a little self-righteous of you Jim.

What is your stance on another health issue which effects others,sodomy is upping the disease Aids.

Recreational sex among homosexuals has contributed in a major way to the plague. Those of us into truth said it, but we were made out to be religious nuts who lost reality's pole.

Addressing the topic of AIDS, the gay community seems to have a collective shrug as if this isn't our problem.

87 percent of the people in this country living with HIV are gay we cannot deny that HIV is a gay disease. We have to own that and face up to that.

A little over a year ago, Lorri Jean, CEO of the Los Angeles-based Gay and Lesbian Center, similarly shocked the 'gay' community by stating that, "HIV is a Gay Disease".

You know, it really is a mortal phenomenon that shows up quite often. It's that human beings who intentionally have buried truth live long enough to blister with the lie. Then they out with the facts. It happens in sports, politics, religion and so forth.

Therefore, this admission from homosexuals is not ultimately surprising considering that mortals do fester when purposefully hiding the truth over time. At the start, it's kind of a game of hide and seek. Then years go by at times. Years. Then the blister boil can't go untended. It works its way to the surface and bursts forth.

Biblical moralists have said for ages that practising homosexuality is not only a sin but a disease carrier.

Yet we are subjected daily to these people on television soaps, game programmes and talent shows. Go shoot your mouth off that direction.

Twenty years ago it was closet homosexuals, now it's closet smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

the man was a member of a health commity here in Britian and he was a doctor so I tihnk that he might have some knowledge about smoking and health don't you.

anyway don't shoot me down, I tihnk if people want to smoke let them go ahead, I mean no one forced you to buy those things did they now.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

Guest, Guest. What a ludicrous argument. Has anyone ever suffered from the effects of passive anal sex? How can such a thing occur? Please enlighten us! Besides, as far as I know, sodomy in public buildings is illegal, as is forcing the act upon anyone else. Or was that post supposed to be ironic?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:32 PM

That link is to an article by Ewan Turney. I googled Ewan Turney UK reporter. He writes opinion. He also writes for a web site called thesmokersclubinc.com. There is no proof, even in his article, that the smoking ban is closing the pubs. Change in drinking habits, increase costs in other ways, etc. are a pressure on pub owners, stated even in the article written by Turney. He tries to spin it as a result of the ban, but there is no proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

oops, sorry, I think I responded to the wrong thread on smoking ban!
2 going right now


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

GG2, just as you use the same name as another to confuse, you seek to do the same by dragging the argument into other areas. I hardily recommmend folks just ignore this ignorant crap. It is not relevant to the discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:58 PM

Guest - guest
Not self righteous - rather, self protective.
Sodomy (unlesS you are talking about anal rape) by its very nature involves a choice made by two people who are aware of the risk they are taking by indulging in unprotected sex.
Smoking is one group of people inflicting their lethal habit onto others.
Of course, I could (as Smokey and others have suggested) go to another pub - but the one I choose to use (and have done regularly for the last ten years, and on annual visits before that, for the last 30) serves good beer, has incredible traditional music sessions and runs a regular pub quiz (all of which I'm extremely partial to!)
Anyway, problem solved; we've had a ban here for several years, and , just like the advert says - "WE'RE LOVIN' IT!!!!!!!!"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:53 PM

Mick you may be aware the clocks in the UK changed last night, but I thought yours changed before us. On the 29th of March you said that was your last post, on the 30th March you returned. Is this a date change thing ?

"Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 05:12 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the switch ISP brigade at its finest.

This will be my last post here so have fun. "

From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

GG2, just as you use the same name as another to confuse, you seek to do the same by dragging the argument into other areas. I hardily recommmend folks just ignore this ignorant crap. It is not relevant to the discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM

yeah, but you are such an easy and tempting target that I just can't help myself. So I am not going to debate the subject anymore, just keep an eye on you, and point out your smug, and rather basic, trolling techniques. Obviously it bothers you that I expose your switching identities and using the same handle as others.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:14 PM

Jim, nowhere have I denied that my habit can do harm, I have clearly stated the opposite and it's pretty obvious that it causes offence to some people; any admission of that on my part would not make any difference to them or me. I personally do not have a problem with those people on that score and I have always been willing to keep my habit away from them. Whatever contempt for non-smokers in general you think you have seen from me is from your own imagination. Please remember, not everyone is like you - I happen to think everyone deserves well-being and comfort, and I do not discriminate.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:32 PM

GUEST,Ol' Smokey

They are not confused TS, they are presenting statistics. My remark was directed at you, not them.

Sorry, but I merely asked if you would like to comment on the links I posted. Why does that make me confused?

Perhaps you'd tell me what I'm denying?

The facts about a your dependance on a drug that will almost certainly shorten your life and may well end it in a particularly unpleasant way.

What am I trying to justify?

Your self-destructive addiction which harms not only you but those around you.

What am I wrong about?

Your overwhelming conviction that you are in the right.

Er, would you like to comment on the links I posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM

Smoking is one group of people inflicting their lethal habit onto others. That is no longer significantly the case in public places, now that smoking is no longer happening in pubs and so forth.

So going on about it in an insulting way is no longer relevant. It's an activity which some people enjoy, and which exposes them to health risks, but then that applies to a lot of things - motor racing, bungy jumping, gay sex... Nobody's business to slag people off for going in for stuff like that, so long as it's not forced on the rest of us.
..................

I see the Isle of Man has now brought in a ban - but including provision for smoking rooms in hotels and private clubs. Sensible enough - so long as the smokers look after these themselves and don't expect staff to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:20 PM

Snail, I didn't say you were confused, you know that. I was in fact indirectly commenting on the links, which seem to consist of educated conjectures based on statistical correlation. Perhaps you were hoping I'd say they were all wrong.. The rest I have already answered in my previous post.

MGr, your rationality is like a breath of fresh air, though you've obviously never been landed on by a bungy jumper I'll wager.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,O|' Smokey
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:23 PM

Jim - when exactly did I suggest you went to another pub?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:59 AM

there are people that don't smoke and yet die of lung cancer so if they don't smoke why do they have lung cancer then.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:03 AM

in other words how does the smoke get into a non smokers lungs if they don't smoke


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

Gr-r-r-r-ro-o-o-o-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-nnnnnnnnn!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:28 AM

Good point Arran. There is NO solid evidence that non- smokers who die of lung cancer. No death certificate has ever recorded such a death.

There is plenty of evidence on the net that this theory is a myth.

This myth all seemed to start after the whinges of the like of Roy Castles who used this to go on about his illness.

Compare this to the dignity of George Harrison in his interviews prior to his death.

Then again Harrison was a talented musician, that is were the comparison stops.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:38 AM

No death certificate has ever recorded such a death.

Has an official death certificate every recorded death by smoking, driving, drinking or any other such underlying casue? I very much doubt it. I think you will find that the certificate records the actual cause (lung cancer, multiple injuries, liver failure etc.) Everyone (apart from Guest, Guest and occasionaly skipy) seems to accept that certain activities are proven to be major factors in those actual causes.

Looking more and more like a case of clutching at straws.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:44 AM

So People that don't smoke do not get lung cancer, and yet the people that do say it's a myth, the non smokers don't inhale second hand smoke so where does the smoke come from then, and as I have said before 12,000 people die thorugh inhaling second hand smoke and yet people that smoke says that this is not true, well proove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:46 AM

that's all I have to say because smelly smokers will continue to say its' a myth even when they have the evidance in front of them otherwise because they want to be prooved right, but as they say you have your views and I have mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM

The suggestion that passive smoking isn't a cause of lung cancer is nonsense, the kind of stuff that tobacco companies used to try to sell people about smoking not being carcinogenic, or Dubya and co pretending there wasn't overwhelming evidence about global warming, or that there was overwhelming evidence about Saddam having those WMDs - but for all that tobacco smoke isn't the only factor that causes lung cancer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:09 AM

GUEST,Ol' Smokey

Snail, I didn't say you were confused,

Yes you did. I see that you have extended your policy of ignoring all facts and questions that don't fit your argument to your own posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:50 AM

this is from the BBC News BBC NEWS
Q&A: Passive smoking
Pressure is mounting for a total ban on smoking in public places.

An update to a major review by the Government-appointed Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health (SCOTH) has highlighted the health risks associated with passive smoking.

The British Medical Association is among those who believe a ban would make a signficant contribution to public health.

However, opponents say it would be draconian and unnecesary.

BBC News Online examines the evidence.

What is passive smoking?

Simply, breathing in other people's tobacco smoke. This is made up of "sidestream" smoke from the burning tip of the cigarette, and "mainstream" smoke that has been inhaled and then exhaled by the smoker.

Sidestream smoke accounts for nearly 85% of the smoke in a room.

What's in the smoke?

Tobacco smoke contains over 4000 chemicals in the form of particles and gases.

The particulate phase includes tar, nicotine, benzene and benzo(a)pyrene.

The gas phase includes carbon monoxide, ammonia, dimethylnitrosamine, formaldehyde, hydrogen cyanide and acrolein.

It has been estimated that tobacco smoke contains as many as 60 substances which cause - or are suspected of causing - cancer.

And many irritate the tissues of the respiratory system.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in the USA has classified environmental tobacco smoke as a class A carcinogen - ranking it alongside asbestos and arsenic.

What effect does it have on the passive smoker?

Breathing in other people's smoke can cause eye irritation, headache, cough, sore throat, dizziness and nausea. Just 30 minutes exposure can be enough to reduce blood flow through the heart.

There is also evidence to show that people with asthma can experience a significant decline in lung function when exposed.

Whether or not passive smoking can trigger new cases of asthma is a hotly debated issue.

What about in the longer term?

Non-smokers who are exposed to passive smoking in the home, have a 25% increased risk of heart disease and lung cancer.

Researchers from London's St George's Medical School and the Royal Free hospital have recently found when you include exposure to passive smoking in the workplace and public places the risk of coronary heart disease is increased by 50-60%.

A major review in 1998 by the Government-appointed Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health (SCOTH) concluded that passive smoking is a cause of lung cancer and ischaemic heart disease in adult non-smokers, and a cause of respiratory disease, cot death, middle ear disease and asthmatic attacks in children.

There is also some evidence to suggest that passive smoking may affect children's mental development.

SCOTH has looked at the data since 1998 and concluded secondhand smoke is damaging.

However, it is true that the health risks of breathing in other people's tobacco smoke are much smaller than those posed by actually smoking.

And the pro-smoking lobby, including the campaigning group FOREST, argue that the case against passive smoking has never been properly proved.

They point to a study by the University of California published in the British Medical Journal which found that the link between environmental tobacco smoke and coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker than generally believed.

This in turn, is disputed by the anti-smoking lobby, which points out that after considering the BMJ study, the UK Government's Committee on Carcinogens and SCOTH still concluded that environmental tobacco smoke is carcinogenic, and responsible for several hundred deaths a year in the UK.

How widespread is passive smoking?

Of course, anybody who regularly frequents pubs or bars is inevitably going to breathe in a significant amount of tobacco smoke.

However, a survey by the anti-smoking charity ASH in 1999 found that about 3million people in the UK are exposed to passive smoke at work.

And it is also estimated that almost half of all children in the UK are exposed to tobacco smoke at home.

One study found that in households where both parents smoke, young children have a 72% increased risk of respiratory illnesses.

Research also shows that children whose parents smoke in the home are more likely to be admitted to hospital for bronchitis and pneumonia in the first year of life.

More than 17,000 children under the age of five are admitted to hospital every year because of the effects of passive smoking.

What do other countries do?

Banning smoking in public places is a highly controversial move, which has been resisted by the UK government so far.

However, some countries, including Ireland, Turkey and Norway, have accepted that a ban is the only way to tackle the problem of smoking effectively.

Despite concerns from the hospitality industry, the ban on smoking in public places in Ireland, which began in March this year, has not affected business, according to reports.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/medical_notes/3235820.stm

Published: 2004/10/18 14:46:53 GMT

© BBC MMVIII


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:59 AM

Arran, sorry I groaned after your post - I completely misunderstood your point (brain cells dying off from spending too much of my time inhaling smokers' filth in pubs over the years perhaps?). You are absolutely correct of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

thank you very much


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM

Snail, I said you were confusing correlation with causation, not that you were confused. There is a difference. Perhaps I should have said 'mistaking correlation for causation', it would have been clearer. It should also have been read in conjuction with the other half of the sentence, which you appear to have completely ignored.

I have, at least at some point, answered all your comments except the one about being wrong about my overwhelming conviction that I am in the right - which really doesn't make any sense unless you are prepared to tell me what you think it is that I think I'm right about. Indeed, I have to confess to being a little confused myself over that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM

Sorry Arran, I misread you, didn't realise you were a troll for them.
I repeat, there is incontrovertible scientific evidence of harm to others.

Lord Harris of High Cross said that the many studies done worldwide have produced no reliable link between lifetime exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer in non-smokers. He says the 'evidence' on passive smoking is based on nothing more substantial than "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

"He says the 'evidence' on passive smoking is based on nothing more substantial than "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip."

And what about the considerable amount of research and carefully-considered opinions of the top scientists and medical experts who have come out in droves to support the fact of the dangers of passive smoking? Does it also qualify, in your strangely-distorted Planet-Zog view of the world, as "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip."


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM

Ol' Smokey

They are not confused TS, they are presenting statistics. My remark was directed at you, not them.

Snail, I didn't say you were confused, you know that.

Snail, I said you were confusing correlation with causation, not that you were confused. There is a difference.


OK, now I AM confused. What have I said that makes you think I'm confusing correlation with causation? As I said, I just passed on the links.

It should also have been read in conjuction with the other half of the sentence

You mean the bit where you said "please note I have never claimed that smoking is safe."? You've certainly expressed considerable scepticism on the evidence that it is -

Pardon my pedantry, but there is no evidence whatsoever that lung cancer is caused by smoking, merely that you stand a greater chance of dying from it if you smoke.
There is no argument - no-one has ever produced actual evidence of passive smoking being fatal.


I have, at least at some point, answered all your comments except the one about being wrong about my overwhelming conviction that I am in the right

Yeah, I was getting a bit lazy there. I'd really covered it in the first two points about denial and self-justification which you don't seem to be contesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM

Ok Snail, you just passed on the links. I mistakenly assumed you thought you were presenting hard evidence and proof. For the elimination of doubt, when I use the word 'evidence', I mean it in the literal sense, as in its legal usage. I stand by everything else you've quoted, but I recommend you read it more carefully. I've already dealt with denial and self justification.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM

According to the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer there is "sufficient evidence that involuntary smoking (exposure to secondhand or "environmental" tobacco smoke) causes lung cancer in humans.

Those are heavyweight experts in my opinion.

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:58 PM

so where is the proof that passive smoking doesn't kill according to the smokers anyway


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

The big tobacco companies have come out with reams of material to justify their position. Theirs is not hard evidence either; there is no right and wrong where statistics are concerned, just a highly debatable level of likelihood. None of us, not even the scientists, can rightfully presume to know one way or the other for certain.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM

But scientists and medical experts don't have financial gain as their driving force, unlike the tobacco companies.

Anyone with at least one functioning brain-cell would place a great deal more faith in the scientific and medical men's judgments than in 'statistics' and 'evidence' from the tobacco companies, in whose interests it is to persuade the gullible fools we keep hearing from on here that smoking, including passive smoking, is harmless.

BTW Ol' Smokey, Skipy and GUEST,Guest, are you one and the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM

From the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA, US) the top three causes of lung cancer are smoking, radon, and second hand smoke.

http://www.epa.gov/radon/healthrisks.html

"Secondhand smoke is the third leading cause of lung cancer and responsible for an estimated 3,000 lung cancer deaths every year."


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:17 PM

From the American Lung Association

How can you prevent cancer
quote
"If you are a nonsmoker, know your rights to a smoke-free environment at work and in public places. Make your home smoke-free."

http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35427#prevent


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

All working scientists and medical experts get paid by someone.

For the record, I do not profess to know whether or not passive smoking is harmless.

We are not all the same, but ask yourself how much difference it would make if we were.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

Ask someone in chemotherapy if they wished they had prevented cancer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:35 PM

Ol' Smokey

For the elimination of doubt, when I use the word 'evidence', I mean it in the literal sense, as in its legal usage.

The problem is that, because smoking has been around for hundreds of years, the burden of proof falls on those who see it as a killer. Were it a modern introduction, it would never make it into the shop.

None of us, not even the scientists, can rightfully presume to know one way or the other for certain.

Ultimately, all science is a correlation of observed data and theory. One day all the beer in your glass may spontaneously leap upwards but don't bet your life on it. You are betting your life on your statement that there is no evidence whatsoever that lung cancer is caused by smoking. You are betting other people's lives on the idea that no-one has ever produced actual evidence of passive smoking being fatal.

Have a read of this -
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/smokingandtobacco/howdoweknow/#Deaths


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:39 PM

Lord Harris of High Cross said that the many studies done worldwide have produced no reliable link between lifetime exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer in non-smokers. He says the 'evidence' on passive smoking is based on nothing more substantial than "estimates, guesswork, subjective recollections and even gossip.

Obituary of Lord Harris of High Cross: "...the high priest of the libertarian right, whose creed included full-blooded monetarism, the unleashing of market forces, sharp tax cuts, unrestricted Sunday trading, the castration of trade unions and the abolition of minimum wages, nationalised industries and inflation-proof pensions. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher made him her first peer."

Clearly someone whom we should all treat as a highly reliable sourece of guidance on these matters...


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:42 PM

my sister smokes and yet she knows the dangers of smoking and yet Skipy and Old Smoky don't


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM

Snail, buy yourself a dictionary, and at least quote my sentences in full and in context if you're going to insist on continuing this pointless conversation. It isn't my job or my mission to educate you.

You are quite right that if tobacco were 'invented' today, it would not be legal - by the same token neither would alcohol, therefore there would be no pubs at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:17 PM

This thread made me think about businesses and activities that have disappeared or changed because of their danger. Hatters used to use mercury, which they do not any more. Miners have more safety equipment now than they did in the past. We don't use lead water pipes or make lead paint any more. Things change. We have more information and experience as time goes by, and that affects businesses and the way we live. My university education in painting was in the early 70's. There are toxic pigments in some paints that are not sold any more. I used to breathe in lots of fumes in painting and print making, not realizing the danger. Once we have the information about risks, it will affect business and behavior. Can you put a price on human life to keep a business from closing?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:39 PM

You're a lost cause, Ol' Smokey. I hope you live to a ripe and healthy old age....but there's a fair (statistical) chance that you won't. At least, by giving up your social life in favour of the weed, you won't harm anyone else.

Goodbye.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

That is very true Alice. There is a lot more information now than ever there was.

2001 It was considered safe for a pregnant woman to drink one glass of red wine.

2008, the same people who said that retracted it.

Just as they did regarding eggs and reversed that too. Also tinned Tuna fish.

Alice, the generation before us seemed to get through fine, hard to believe all those people in their eighties and nineties today survived through that age. Eating food without sell by dates and living in dangerously painted houses and sitting in smokey pubs.

Sometimes the nanny state isn't always for the best.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

Guest, that is quite a rationalization.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:41 PM

lets get a few facts about me straight in this!

1 I believe smoking IS lethal!
2 I DO NOT want to smoke in an area where it offends / endangers others!
3 ALL I have asked for ALL along is that if 20-30% of us smoke, then 20-30% of venues should be smoking.

& NO, I do not have a workable plan for how that can be carried out, but there are others out there that could take this on, who are paid to plan.

My life has just about been destroyed by this law, I now have no friends that I see anymore, nowhere to relax, no hobbies, no committment to my comunity, so little or no fulfillment in life whilst others love to take the piss!

I look fwd. to the day that a gloating non smoker needs my help!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:49 PM

Skipy - but you are still running a WHFF festival in August, aren't you?

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:52 PM

Yes, but as last year, I will not set foot in any of the venues, it will run as normal with me sat in the car parks, no one noticed that I was not seen a venue, this year will be no differant, I can still conduct from outside.
No worries no changes.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

Skipy, you have a life threatening addiction which, on your own admission, is destroying your life. That is nobody else's fault. You can still break free. Seek help.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:56 PM

Snail with all due respect, I DO NOT want to stop smoking, my resolve to continue has been hightened by my "so called" friends in here!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:18 PM

Skipy, I expect I am not alone in wishing you well- or better, anyway. Deciding to limit your life in this way is sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

Skipy, I hope you realise that my piss taking wasn't/isn't aimed at you - I admire your stance and resilience in the face of all this hypocrisy and victimisation. Good luck with all you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

Ebbie, you ARE almost alone, most catters want me dead anyway, so thank you for your support, I will carry on as I am hoping to see my fine sons through uni. but no one lives forever, our country lost to of it's finest sons today via the taliban, 5 killed yesterday in an aircraft crash & who knows how many on the roads! Each day is a bonus.
Skipy
Quite depressed in a white wine sauce, not able to go into pubs or folk clubs of attend venues at festivals anymore, a lifetime wasted


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:28 PM

Skipy

Snail with all due respect, I DO NOT want to stop smoking

Fine, but that is your choice. Don't try and blame others for the consequences. It is sad that the good work that I understand that you do is less important to you than your addiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:33 PM

I don't, won't & never have tried to blame others, it is my choice, always has been & always will be! But I must fight my corner.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:00 PM

Skipy

I don't, won't & never have tried to blame others, it is my choice, always has been & always will be!

This ban has basically ruined my life

Blaming the ban. No, it is your addiction that has ruined your life.

tonight I resigned, non smoker required to take my place!

So others are at fault for forcing you to resign, not your addiction?

My life has just about been destroyed by this law, I now have no friends that I see anymore, nowhere to relax, no hobbies, no committment to my comunity, so little or no fulfillment in life whilst others love to take the piss!

No. Your life has been ruined by your addiction.

Quite depressed in a white wine sauce, not able to go into pubs or folk clubs of attend venues at festivals anymore, a lifetime wasted

Your choice, Skipy, your choice. Stop complaining.

But I must fight my corner.

You are fighting against yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:11 PM

I am NOT complaining, just fighting my corner, perhaps you should try giving something up, that is if you do anything other than type! Or perhaps have others try & take your life from you!
Maybe then you would understand or at least try to! Perhaps a law to totally ban instruments & song from pubs, maybe that would cause you a problem, instruments don't cause a health problem you will say, but they sure as hell piss a lot of poeple off without a doubt!
You are parry to info. that you are trusted not to share, or will you?
You have a bayonet between my ribs, you have twisted it, will you now fire a round to extricate? Against the Geneva convention unless your life or the lives of others in your charge are under threat! Your call.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:35 PM

most catters want me dead anyway Absolute undiluted rubbish.

So you have to do without smoking in the course of some indoor activities? Nothing new about that, it's just that the range of activities is a bit wider than it was a few months ago. Church goers, for example, have always had to do without smoking during services, and I've never heard anyone complain about that in those kind of terms. I've never in my life heard of a public library where smoking was allowed. It's a good few years since it was possible to go to the cinema and smoke at the same time. Or travel by public transport for that matter.

As I've indicated, I think it's stupid and unfair for people to go on in hectoring terms about smoking, and I'd be happy to have a situation in which there where some smokeasies around. I quite understand if people wish to campaign for some relaxation in those terms. But self indulgent and self dramatising rubbish like "You have a bayonet between my ribs, you have twisted it" - come off it, it's just silly. Have a smoke and calm down.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM

Skipy

I am NOT complaining, just fighting my corner, perhaps you should try giving something up, that is if you do anything other than type! Or perhaps have others try & take your life from you!

Very well. It's none of your flaming business, but, on the 16th December I was diagnosed diabetic. Merry Christmas. I have had to give up a lot that I took for granted and it isn't easy. I have to do it in order to preserve my health and prolong my life. I have no intention of blaming the doctors for ruining my life nor will I make demands on others that they should share in my problems. I do not resent those who are free to eat chocolate and pour sugar on their puddings. I intend to continue to enjoy my music and my folk club and my social life rather than retreating into my corner and barking at passing strangers as you seem to be doing.

You are parry to info. that you are trusted not to share, or will you?

What? Lost me there.

You have a bayonet between my ribs, you have twisted it, will you now fire a round to extricate? Against the Geneva convention unless your life or the lives of others in your charge are under threat! Your call.

You started this thread, Skipy, on the false premise that you were concerned about the future of pubs under the smoking ban.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM

Why don't you go and watch a bullfight Snail? You'd enjoy that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

"most catters want me dead anyway"

Skipy, most 'catters (certainly THIS 'catter!) want you alive, and free of the deep addiction that's clearly made your life a living death, and is at the root of the serious depression you seem to be in, judging by some of the hysterical stuff you post.

Dump those cancer-sticks and get a life - YOUR life, get it back, it's never too late. Nobody is losing here except YOU, and it's all your own doing. No good squealing like a stuck pig at everybody else, you've made the choices yourself - live with it or DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!

You have it within your power to break free from the chains of addiction which are taking away your social life and turning you into a paranoid wreck. Get help and get it NOW.

I wish you nothing but good fortune, you're in my prayers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:01 AM

skipy, this is one Mudcatter who absolutely does not want you dead, or gone, or wishes you ill. I may be vociferous in not wanting to be exposed to smoke, but that has nothing to do with whether I think you are a valuable Mudcatter. You are, and that is that. Do I wish you didn't smoke? I wish that everyone didn't smoke. Last time I checked, I couldn't get second hand smoke over the internet.

So stick around, son. We like having you here. If you take the position that smoking should be allowed anywhere where folks that aren't smoking have to be exposed, we will argue. But don't leave us. That would be good for no one.

And quit smokin' those damn things......***chuckle***

All the best, and I mean that sincerely,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:45 AM

skipy, 5:41

My life has just about been destroyed by this law

skipy, 38 minutes later

I don't, won't & never have tried to blame others, it is my choice, always has been & always will be!

So, you will never blame others? I guess you must have passed 'this law' then?

As to perhaps you should try giving something up. Well, I have, and not just smoking tobacco I can assure you. It was difficult but not impossible. It certainly didn't 'ruin my life'.

Give it ip skipy. If not the smoking at least make an effort to stop whinging.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM

it might be your choice to smoke however it's our choice not to.

but we non smokers don't have that choice when smokers are outside at bus stops, train stations and other places where people gather or in other people's cars do we and what about the chidren they don't smoke unless it's second hand smoke, so stop whinching and just get on with life

cough!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Alice
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM

We care about you, Skipy. We also care about what affects the public health.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM

So do I as a non someker, but as I have said I don't have a problem with smokers but I also have a choice the same as them


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 02:43 PM

I've followed this thread, read every post but not yet contributed.

The posts that I can identify with the most are those from McGofH.

This is an interesting link from today's news:

genes


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

Skipy - I fear you are cutting off your nose to spite your face, and suffering more than you need to. You deserve better than this! We do care about you, please don't give up on us.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM

cough


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM

Some people enjoy martyrdom, Kitty. I think it is a good substitute for nicotine...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:00 AM

passive smoking is not a disease is it mow the affects are that's why there is not a death cerificate with someone dying of passive smoking but the illness that you get from it is.

cough splutter die


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 07:51 AM

Another great night at the Royal last night - 10 years on now and still they turn up in significant numbers to get their share of both active and passive music; since the smoking ban the pub has enjoyed income from an increasing number of folk who previously wouldn't go near for fear of "the poisonous fog".

It's understandable that those who find the taste so sweet can't understand why the rest of us find it so unbelievably vile. Life really is so much sweeter now - though I feel cheated out of all those wasted years of pointless pontification.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

No last word from you, skipy? Not even to answer the question I keep asking you? Or let us know how many valuable organisations have folded since you withdrew your support?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM

Skipy don't rise to Dave's cynical comment. He is good at talking out of the side of his mouth.

You know the type that gives it but can't take it ?

Well that's what your dealing with here. Wasn't so long back that he left mudcat due to being challenged. His departure was short lived. Wanted members to beg for his return, few did.

Then last year he posted a comment on a thread in which he said he received a pm from a GUEST ! well as we know, a guest can't send a member a pm.

That's what your dealing with Skipy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 07:25 PM

Yes, Guest/Guest, we do know who we are dealing with in certain cases. Everyone knows my name and I did receive a PM from a mudcat member who was posting as a guest. Maybe it was you? How can you ever prove who you are? Guess hiding behind made up names and remarks that prove how 'clever' you are is about your limit. Oh, and I can take as much as I give. Tell you what - I'll set you a challenge now. Mail me at my hotmail address - It's easy enough to find. Tell me who and where abouts you are and I will give you the same courtesy I give other people who have the courage to put their own names to insinuations about the characters of others.

Put up or shut up.

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 07:33 PM

Oh - and BTW, I have never met skipy but I know him quite well. I know his name, where he lives and where he comes from as well as details of what he does for a living and for pleasure. We have exchanged PMs on a number of occasions and I have offered him help with a project he is involved in.

He is a man who is prepared to put his name to and stand by his convictions. Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevent. Our ongoing argument about smoking in public places is a disagreement between, if not friends, then certainly peers. He certainly needs no help from cowards who keep their heads below the parapet.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 08:04 PM

Well if your a friend or acquittance of Skipy allow him an opinion.

Regarding my identity, what do you want me to give you a catchy name ?

I don't disclose any of my personal information on any forum. Regarding your request where I live, I live in a place called Long Millgate.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 09:11 PM

Hi DP, I did not say that organisations would fold without me, I just said let the non smokers run them, as I am sure they will without any problems.
Skipy
There is a poem that covers it, I will try to find it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 09:19 PM

Sometime, when you feel important,
Sometime, when your ego's in bloom,
Sometime, when you take it for granted,
You're the best qualified man in the room.
Sometime, when you feel that your going
Would leave an unfilable hole,
Just follow these simple instructions
See how they humbles your soul.
Take a bucket & fill it with water,
Put your hands in, up to the wrists,
Pull them out, and the hole that remains,
Is how much you'll be missed.
You may splash all you like when you enter,
Stir up the water galore,
Stop and in just a minute,
It'll look quite as before.
The moral in this example
Do just the best you can
Appreciate yourself, but remember,
There is no indispensable man.
skipy
I will not be missed & have no desire or pretence to be


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 09:23 PM

Guest guest, sorry to say this but I would rather do battle with DP than take aid from a "nameless" one, regards to you but that is how it is! Although DP would rather read my obit than my posts.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:40 AM

Now, skipy, you know that is far from true! I would like to read that auto-biography that you are writing for the kids and, if I am still around, see it continue for a good many years yet:-) The only reason I was asking you those questions is to prove the point that the smoking ban is not having the effect you predicted. I guess from your lack of response that your pub has not closed? Yes? Nor have, as you say, the organisations you are involved in affected. Your other community activity, from whence your name comes, is a good outdoor one anyway and you can smoke to your hearts contect while re-cycling other peoples cast offs:-)

Guest, Guest. I am allowing skipy an opinion just as he is allowing mine. It is called two people disagreeing in an adult and, hopefuly, constructive manner. What is the problem with that? Next, I didn't ask you to disclose any personal information on the forum. Send a message to my hotmail account. I guess Long Millgate is non-UK? unless it is the Long Millgate in Manchester, in which case I am sure we will have met in the Hare and Hounds. Once again - mail me. Until then you are just amongst the ranks of people I do not know, don't really want to know and have no reason to show regard for.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

as I always say to these people proove it


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:20 PM

Fine Skipy, Dave I will leave you both at it here. Yes I do know the Hare and Hounds, been there a few Friday evenings, more a Band on the Wall regular. Please allow each other an opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

Fine with that Guest, Guest. Come along to Swinton Folk Club tomorrow and I will buy you a pint. I would say any Monday but I am sometimes absent nowadays - 30 years of organsing has taken it's toll and I sort of got out of the habit over the course of last year while I was working in the North East. Check with me before you come - I am easily findable on hotmail.

Just one thing - What was all that nastiness about on Saturday? I have no problem handling it but I would still ask why.

And skipy, seriously, don't let this ban 'ruin your life'. There is no need. And always remember that people are allowed to disagree with you without wishing you harm.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM

Thank you Dave I apologise to you unconditionally if I offended you. I do feel smokers suffer enough prejudice out there without keyboards joining in.

My opinion, my viewpoint my privilege.

Nastiness on Saturday ? sorry can't put my hands up to all the guest posts that day.

Sorry, long drive from work here in Scotland to homestead in Manchester.
Offer appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Ahhh, ok, maybe you were not the 'Guest, Guest' that said of me on 05 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM 'the type that gives it but can't take it '. Classed generaly as a personal insult but I am thick skinned enough for it not to worry me:-) Join up and then no-one can mimic you.

I know the long drive to Scotland well. I have a very good friend there, habe been up twice since January and intend to be in the south west (Near Newton Stewart) at least once every couple of months. I am sure I can still buy you that beer.

I also feel qualified to comment on smoking, btw. I gave up the 40+ a day habit over 10 years ago but I still occasionaly enjoy the odd cigar, roll-up and, oddly enough, Sobranie cocktail cigarette. But only the pink ones:-)

Offer still open.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:58 PM

"Sobranie cocktail cigarettes" Wow that takes me back, multi coloured papers and gold foil on the tips. A weekend treat from the cough nails Player's No6. Weather rough in Scotland tonight.

You did well to quit. I think you probably enjoy it more just a rare occasional one. I envy people who do this, a friend is much the same as yourself.

Enjoy week ahead Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:19 PM

Hi Guest guest, glad to see that you are not offended, why not join us for real? or perhaps you already have!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:34 PM

Dave, no my 3 pubs are not yet closed, but please believe me all 3 are struggling really badly, you would be very welcome to spend a weekend with us & go to all 3 & talk to staff & any punters that are present about the change since last July, it IS dire.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM

The point is, skipy, they are still open. 9 months later and they are still going. Think of the profits they must have been making before if they can manage on what they are taking now! Why did they never use any of those profits to give non-smokers a fair chance then by, for instance, building seperate smoking (or non-smoking if you like) rooms or by installing sophisticated air flow equipment?

Even without the smoking ban takings would have been down - everyone and his dog are saying so. Cheaper supermarket booze, recessional economy and changing attitudes are as much to blame. Why single out the smoking ban? For the majority of people it is a good thing. I know this is a crusade of yours and you are more than entitled to your opinions but I am equaly entitled to mine. Don't take it so personaly - I never accused you of wanting me dead everytime you blew smoke at me did I? (OK - I know we have not met - It was figurative!)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:13 PM

"I know this is a crusade of yours and you are more than entitled to your opinions but I am equaly entitled to mine."
Believe in or not I would also fight for your right for you to have your opinion heard!
I did spent 25 years in the military afterall!
Skipy
(just about to buy an mp3 on Ebay to try to pump a song into my head so that I can gird my loins, enter a singaround & do one, but don't get between me & the door on the way out!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: goatfell
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM

as a small boy I has Astmatic bronchtis, I still have asthma but not as bad, when I was a wee boy Tabcco smoke I just couldn't stand, still can't really and as for being in the miltary what has that got to do with the smoking ban as I said where is your proof that second hand smoke does not kill you and the pubs as closing because smokers have now to go outside, I mean no one forces you to light up or go to the pub do they now, but if you want to slowly kill yourself and be a drug addict then go ahead, I don't mind at all but remember our health as well.
Good Luck


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:05 AM

"Believe in or not I would also fight for your right for you to have your opinion heard!" (skipy)

"and as for being in the miltary what has that got to do with the smoking ban" (Arran)

Arran, give skipy a break - I think he was actually defending Dave's right to have a different opinion there!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:36 PM

Arran it has nothing to do with the smoking ban at all but it has everything to do with democracy!
So I defend DPs right to his opinion 100%
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Sapper
Date: 13 May 09 - 08:57 AM

At a time when 25 + public houses a week are closing in England and Wales a landlady of a pub in has exploited a loophole in the country's smoking ban by opening a "smoking research centre" where drinkers can light up legally.

Locals at the Cutting Edge pub in Barnsley, northern England, must fill in a questionnaire on their smoking habits to satisfy legal requirements before sitting down for a drink and a cigarette in the centre.

England and Wales introduced a ban on smoking in enclosed public places in 2007, contributing to tumbling beer sales which have forced over 2,000 pubs to close in the last year, according to the British Beer And Pub Association.

The Cutting Edge's landlady Kerry Fenton opened the centre, which is a separate room in her pub, five days ago.

She said,"It's given business a shot in the arm, profits are well up and people are coming in from other areas, and it's all in the name of research, legal and above board," "I'm a non-smoker but I believe in the freedom of the individual."

Good on you girl.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 May 09 - 09:13 AM

"a landlady of a pub in has exploited a loophole in the country's smoking ban by opening a "smoking research centre" where drinkers can light up legally."

Hysterical...!


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:05 AM

........a precedent??


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:04 AM

A "smoking research center"? Are they keeping records?

In Alaska as in many other US states, smoking indoors in public places is illegal.

No pub, to my knowledge, has closed. I am sure that their bottom line has been impacted, of course, but no one has closed.

* A cabbie has told me that their own revenue stream has been affected. He said that people are going home earlier, that taxi cabs now rarely have the late night calls they used to rely on.

* The city of Juneau has officially declared the cigarette butt-littered sidewalks outside bars to be a public nuisance but has not yet found a way to counter the problem. They have installed cigarette butt receptacles on the trash cans but many smokers don't use them.

However I also know that nowadays it is much nicer, not to mention possible, for large-ish groups to meet in a bar to gather in conviviality. I now see people in bars who had not been able to go inside in years.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Anne
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:21 AM

"No pubs have closed" Ebbie, Around 26 pubs in the UK are being closed down each month, that research was carried out by the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA).

It says many such pubs are turned into homes or demolished, and CAMRA has now launched the Community Pubs Foundation in an attempt to protect others.

CAMRA said that in 2000 about 10 pubs a month were being closed, but the situation had since worsened thanks to the smoking ban.

It said that on top of the pub closures, 438 pubs across England, Wales and Scotland remain closed and are facing an uncertain future.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:44 AM

Is it the smoking ban or is it the price of beer?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8046795.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:34 PM

Think that loophole would work for grass?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:38 PM

Guest/ Anne, in context I believe it is perfectly clear that I speak of Alaska and specifically of Juneau, its capital city.

I don't know how many eateries/pubbities there are in Juneau (My apartment looks down on or is in earshot of five bars) but as I say: No pubs/bars in Juneau have closed in these several years since the smoking ban, whether because of the ban or anything else.

Incidentally my mind boggles at the number of pubs in the UK there appear to be. In the US liquor licenses (the right to serve liquor) are issued on the basis primarily of the numbers already existing and the surrounding populations served.

On occasion an establishment loses its license, either temporarily or permanently, because of infractions of the code. Most often those infractions consist of being caught serving undearage people.

However I remember one establishment in Oregon years ago that lost even its right to serve food, much less liquor, because the city decided that certain elements of the population gravitated to it in an unhealthy fashion. Lots of fights there and there was even a murder in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:22 AM

Sigh... Here we go again.

1. The smoking ban is NOT closing pubs. It is indeed a contributory factor but in a worsening reccesionary economy and a scenario where pub drinks are often two, three or many times more expensive than supermarket drinks people are going to chose what their pockets dictate.

2. Some pubs are reporting that business is not declining and more are reporting that profits are up. Why? Possibly because the better pubs are reaping the benefits of the the closure of those that are not as good?

3. The breweries and pub companies had had years and years to fix the problem They have known for a very log time indeed that there was a need to provide a smoke free environment for some people but they chose profit over sense. Not a single pub in my area, and many others, even attempted to provide a 'smokeless zone'. Yet they are agrieved that someone forced them to.

and btw - I smoke the occasional cigar and did use considerably more in the past. I was always prepared to put the comfort of other people over my own. It is no great inconvenience to go outside.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:26 AM

A legal alternative? http://www.phatphones.com/electronic-cigarettes.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 02:59 PM

Skipy, there have been smoking related deaths from second-hand smoke. They haven't been reported widely but they can be found. Airline in-flight women, waitresses in restaurants,and others. The tobacco industry has done all it can to suppress truthful information on this subject.

Smoking is a legal narcotic that damages the lungs, produces cancer and is a smoking time-bomb.

Ireland was wise to ban it if it wants to retain its clientele.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM

It is so great to leave my favorite pub and my clothes not stink of cigarette/cigar smoke. And I was a forty year smoker.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:25 PM

Hair too. Hair reeks of smoke when you leave a bar.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:42 PM

As a person who helps to enforce the smoking ban and visit lots of pubs professionally, this piece of legislation is one of the most effective ever introduced. It succeeds where food hygiene and health and safety legislation failed. Contrary to popular belief, it was not illegal to smoke in a food room. It was however illegal for the food handler to smoke in a room where there was open food that was being handled, not quite the same if you are considering taking enforcement action. I also help enforce food hygiene and health and safety legislation and have welcomed this strengthening of smoking legislation.
It is true that many pubs are closing, some quote as many as 4 a day in the UK, but as many others have stated there are many other contributing reasons for this.
Pubs are, without doubt a much healthier place thanks to the ban, together with many other workplaces. On a personal not it now means I can call in the pub for a drink and my wife cannot tell from the smell of my clothing where I have been.
The introduction of the Health Act 2006, the Smoke-free (Premises and Enforcement) Regulations 2006 together with the various other pieces of legislation should be applauded.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

I agree with 'im and think 'e deserves a knighthood, if he can afford to buy one in todays Britain!
Great to be able to breathe again after a lifetime of having to live with other people's dirty habits
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:39 PM

The very few people in opposition to this very necessary act were, selfish smokers who cared for no one but themselves, and this despite the health benefits that have ensued.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

Hasn't it had an interesting spinoff social effect? — smoking visitors, of whom I still have a few, now go without thinking into the back garden if they want to smoke. Something one just couldn't have imagined a very few years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:58 PM

Always... I have asked guests in my house if they mind if I smoke. I never did in a pub when it was legal as non-smokers did not have to attend a pub.

In any case, the sooner smoking at all is illegal, the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:56 PM

A crime that would be enforced how?


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 12:22 AM

PS, Gnu. I feel much the same as people here who dislike smoke odors. There are some soap, hair spray and 'cologne' smells that make me gag. Axe is one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: DougR
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

"How would the law be enforced?"

I guess the same way the law creating prohibition on the sale of alcoholic beverages were enforced in the 1920's, which ultimately brought about the legalization, a few years later, of selling alcoholic beverages.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: The Villan
Date: 27 Nov 09 - 02:36 PM

Agree with your comments Dennis.

>>On a personal note it now means I can call in the pub for a drink and my wife cannot tell from the smell of my clothing where I have been.<<

However she can smell if you have been with another woman :-) LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 04:29 AM

UK government to extend smoking ban

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17361047


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:33 AM

I hadn't given any thought to how water pipes would stand in regards to the smoking rules possibly because there are very few authentic Eastern restaurants in Bristol to see for myself. The only time I have seen sishas smoked was when I was on holiday in Turkey. But complying with the UK smoking ban in restaurants, pubs and public places the law would have to be the same or similar in guidelines where it can be smoked only in a designated area.


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Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ole Juul
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 05:45 AM

I must agree that cigarette smoke is dirty in the house. Nevertheless as a kid in Denmark I did enjoy the thick tobacco smoke at Christmas and gatherings. Men rarely smoked cigarettes and the aesthetic was quite different. Anyway, the only thing that I have to add to this thread is that smoke in general is quite old fashioned and, might I say, natural. I have to fire with wood for over half the year and when I fill the stove, often make a point of letting a little smoke into the house because it smells nice, homey, and old-fashioned. Perhaps if I was a tobacco smoker I'd feel differently.


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