BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:42 AM

"But he is not going to bring health care to those of us in the US who don't have access to it,..."

            But he would if he could... And if he could only get members of Congress to see what clowns they are, they might actually get busy and pass something, and it any body could do it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 06:10 AM

I think it's lovely that Patch Adams is working for peace. I hope he continues that work and has every success with it. In that respect, I don't think he is at all a flake. He's a good feelings kind of guy and that's something he's very good at spreading around.

But he is not going to bring health care to those of us in the US who don't have access to it, despite any claims he may make otherwise. And that was the assertion that I was addressing. I can say from long experience that big red noses and bear suits don't make not having access to any kind of medical or other health care any easier to live with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:43 AM

Maybe somebody in the know could make a connection between Patch Adams and the ongoing saga of Israel and the Arabs.

Patch In Palestine

Patch In Israel:

From a 2002 article from The Israel Insider (which I'm afraid I am unable to link to, as you have to register to 'save' their stories, so I have taken the liberty of cutting and pasting it below) His trip to Israel, and thence to Gaza, was paid for by an Israeli hospital.

Doctor of laughter livens up Israeli hearts
By Ellis Shuman December 10, 2002


Bookmark to del.icio.usDigg This Story

Patch Adams, the doctor, clown and founder of the Gesundheit! Institute who is the real person behind the hit Robin Williams movie, arrived in Israel this week as a guest of Asaf Harofe Hospital. Attending a lecture at the hospital were students in a six-month clowning course inspired by Adams's example.

Upon landing at Ben-Gurion International Airport on Sunday, Adams already began cheering up Israelis as he hugged, kissed and jumped all over the children and adults in the arrivals hall. Adams arrived from the United States along with nine other clown medics from his hospital, and passport control officials had difficulties identifying the visitors due to their clown outfits and makeup.

The visit is Adams's first in Israel, and the course being held at the Tzrifin hospital is the first of its kind in the Middle East. The course teaches personnel how to utilize humor in medical care, and the subject matter includes laughter, makeup and pantomime.

On Monday, Adams toured the hospital wards, and his antics made the patients laugh until tears, Yediot Aharonot reported. In the afternoon Adams gave a standing room only lecture to more than 500 doctors and nurses from all over the country. Tickets to the lecture were sold out long before.

Outfitted as a clown with blue hair and a fork dangling from one ear, Adams told the audience of his experiences over the last 32 years. He opened his talk by commenting that the hit movie that publicized his story did not relate to his intense activities against wars around the world. "Last May, my brother and I participated in a congress in Russia," Adams said. "We met two Israelis from an Israeli-Palestinian education center, and we told them we would be willing to come and help resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Adams and his team have traveled around the world in efforts to bring a bit of happiness to patients everywhere. In March, Adams traveled with 22 clowns to Afghanistan. "We went to a hospital in Kabul where there was no food and no medicines. You could see how helpless medicine was. You could see the hunger in the children's eyes.

"That is why I came [to Israel]," he continued. "Laughter, joy, pleasure and love are the solutions to your problems. You need to care. You must end the violence. You should sit together, eat, drink, laugh and talk. This is not a philosophy. This should become common practice, something that is implemented. Not only in medicine, but in life, clowning can be the trick that can ease the pain and bring forth the love."

At the end of his lecture, Adams met with a group of Israeli children who were victims of terror attacks. During his week-long visit he will work with participants in the hospital's course, and also visit Palestinian hospitals.

Patch Adams has also took his clowns into the war zone in Kabul. If you google 'Patch Adams in Kabul on Youtube' you will be linked to the Italian documentary about it. I've not linked it here, as many of the clips contain harrowing scenes of severely injured children. Somehow, in the midst of such terrible pain and suffering, they are able to have their agony turned to smiles, by the love and laughter that Patch and his clowns bring to them.

This man, described as 'a flake...nonetheless a well-meaning flake' by a poster above, has given his life to the pursuit of peace, joy and love. Far from 'not following through', he is respected throughout the world, bringing light to people in their darkest moments. He may not have 'followed through' on the wishes of one person above, perhaps, but to describe him thus, is, in my opinion, intensely wrong. He is changing the face and 'philosophy' of medicine not only in the U.S. but throughout the world. He is also challenging Governments and Corporate Industries too. I take offence at him being so casually 'written off' as being a man of little significance.

And before 'someone' comes back to say that he has not been back there, since 2002, and therefore has not 'followed through', well, Patch belongs to the world, not just to the Middle East. He has thousands of people who need him desperately. He is one man, with limited resources, who, despite having an ever-growing army of helpers, many of whom are doctors themselves, cannot be in all places, at all times, but he will never stop in his quest for peace and love, until his dying day.

Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams is a man of HUGE Significance.

And now, back to the Mudcat Middle East Warzone....

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:39 PM

Maybe somebody in the know could make a connection between Patch Adams and the ongoing saga of Israel and the Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

Like I said, it's based on a telephone conversation I had with him. The rest is personal. I did state it as an opinion, so I don't need to provide evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

I think Patch Adams is not good at following through.


Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

Arnold Palmer had that problem for a while. He got it fixed, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:19 PM

I think Patch Adams is not good at following through.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

I don't think Patch Adams is going to solve any problems. I've been watching him for too long. He's a well-meaning flake, but he's a flake nevertheless. When I talked to him on the phone, I was in a bit of a crisis, and his responses showed me that his talk is just that... talk.

Could you please define exactly what you mean by 'flake'?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:55 PM

My money is not enabling both sides. My money is only enabling one side. If that were not the case, I would not be working so hard to change this fact (which is why I speak out).

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:53 PM

I am not able to have a hysterectomy, or any other medical procedure, because I don't have any health insurance and I don't have enough money to afford to pay for them myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM

Iran is playing the "wipe out Israel" card again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

People of conscience condemn both sides for their respective brutalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

I would like to point out yet once again that I have not blamed Israel for the fact that I don't have access to health care. What I have said is that we shouldn't be giving billions of dollars a year to a country that doesn't need it while the needs of the people in this country aren't being met. This is not an unreasonable position. I don't think anyone who has access to health care can understand what it's like to know that a not insignificant percentage the hard earned money I and my husband are sending to the government is being given away to a country that doesn't need it, while citizens of this country are not getting their needs met. This is also not a criticism of Israel, but a criticism of the government of my own country. People who need to see in these comments a criticism of Israel are having their perceptions distorted by their own prejudices. Either that, or my meaning is being intentionally distorted as a smear tactic.

I don't think Patch Adams is going to solve any problems. I've been watching him for too long. He's a well-meaning flake, but he's a flake nevertheless. When I talked to him on the phone, I was in a bit of a crisis, and his responses showed me that his talk is just that... talk.

I am no less critical of the government of the US than I am of the government of Israel. When governments are doing things they shouldn't do, and when I have a direct tie with those governments, either through being a voter in their country or by supporting them with my tax dollars, not only do I have a right to speak up about what they are doing, but I also have a responsibility to do so. And I will continue to do so, regardless of the smear tactics that people use to try to silence the people of conscience who speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:42 PM

Slight? Someone will get fired over that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

Israel was able to launch its recent air, sea and land attack on Israel- Slight error there..

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

Today, in a surprise move by the caring folks of Hezbollah, more rockets were bought to fire on Israeli civilians. The money is purported to come from neighbouring states who have a vested interest in there being no peace at all in the Middle East.

The leadership of Hamas has declared that he is surprised by the move and that he seriously doubts anyone has contributed funds for that purpose. Speculation runs wild that maybe this is the final resting place of Arafat's millions ($300,000,000) that seems to have left the coffers of the Palestinian people. He was though to have been holding the money in trust. Then, he dropped dead and left the cash to his heirs--however, one can but suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

And there's the hat rack heard from.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

Carole is quite right to point out the vast sums of money paid by the American taxpayer to fund the Israeli war machine and to keep the Israeli economy afloat.

That colossal sum has gone to keep the Israeli military in the occupied West Bank which is probably the longest illegal occupation of another country in recent history.

The American funding also meant that Israel was able to launch its recent air,sea and land attack on Israel-an attack which killed thousands and left 15000 Lebanese homes destroyed.

This funding has not been for the benefit of the Palestinian or Lebanese people and indeed in the long term has only harmed the reputation of Israel.

The years when many of us sympathised with plucky little Israel have long gone. Across the world people now see Israel as an arms supplier and supporter of thuggish regimes like the apartheid era South Africa and modern day Colombia.They see Israel as the neighbourhood bully always trying to crush,humiliate and kill Palestinians and Lebanese and they see Israel as a country that ignores UN resolutions and indeed is a killer of UN personnel.

The Israel gets away with it because it has the military support of the USA....which rushed armaments and munitions to Israel during its 2006 attack on Lebanon.

CaroleC is correct to point out that in choosing to fund warfare the Bush administration has turned its back on the healthcare and welfare so badly needed by the low waged and the poor.There's always money for a new weapons system but money is just as often too tight to mention when it comes to public programmes that care for the elderly or sick .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

Right. Base 92 stuff. I'm with y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:09 PM

Peace, by the same reasoning it takes 100 people to make up a bridge deal. 1 hand is the dummy, while 11 hands actually manipulate cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

In other words 11001000.

This post being 11001001.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

That is very funny. But I don't know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Gee, I just thought you were working in base 18.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 11:15 AM

"To all of you who were raised on New Math, let us go back to simple arithmetic. If the US federal budget is 3 trillion dollars and Israel gets 2.4 billion, that is about 8 ten thousanths (8/10,000) of the federal budget. It ain't 1.6%!!!"

I failed math in school. Now you know why.

However, my 1.6% figure was based on the figure she gave of 108 billion dollars as part of the USA's debt of seven trillion dollars. I divided 108 billion by 7 trillion and got 1.6%. I was using a worse-case scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:53 AM

McGrath,

I agree with almost all of your last comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:51 AM

"Dislike of Israelis?" No, I can't see any evidence of that either. Israel perhaps, not Israelis.

Being strongly critical of a country's regime just is not the same as hating the inhabitants of that country, in the same way that being opposed to a political party or a religion has to mean hating the adherents of that party or that religion. People who detested apartheid South Africa, or who loathe the present regime in Cuba cannot be assumed to have hated white South Africans or to hate Cubans.

True enough, some people seem to find it very hard to avoid confusing the two, but I can't see any indication that Carol does.
.....................

My understanding is that America's failure to provide a proper system of health care for its citizens has nothing to do with being unable to afford to do so, but is a political choice made by the people in power. Military aid to Israel, and the costs of the war in Iraq surely have little to do with this - if the money wasn't spent on that I doubt if it would be available for providing a pattern of health care that is not seen as ideologically acceptable. At this time it'd probably be used for tax breaks for wealthier Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

"has never once paid back. That's a lot of money and we need it."


WW I and WWII war debts with interest?? What about Lend-lease?

Until you get on those debts, I do not think the Israeli debt is significant.


But if you want to blame Israel for the PRESENT Democratic Congress's inability to fund health care feel free... I may not agree, but so what?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:18 AM

"If I needed a hysterectomy, I wouldn't be able to get one at all here in the US, no matter how long I waited."

May I ask why you would not be able to have one?

Surely it's not due to Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Polite Guest
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:13 AM

I'm afraid to say that the one-sided pre-occupation to seemingly damn Israel in almost every post, by one particular poster, is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. There's a myriad of reasons why the USA does not have a proper health system, why are they not being mentioned as well? A new thread is needed for that purpose perhaps.

On Patch Adams:

"I see he's not really any closer to accomplishing his goal now than he was back then. I don't think he is the answer to the problem of millions of people in the US not having health care."

Really? Then you do him a grave injustice, for he will accomplish his dream, and if that dream is not fulfilled in his lifetime, then he knows it will be achieved for him, by those who will continue to fight to make it happen. He is changing the system, not only from without, but from within. It is not only money that will change it, but a change in the views of many doctors too. He is getting people to let go of the old ways of thinking, that being, that medicine is about money and nothing else. Many young medical students now have a strong desire to change the greedy system, after listening to Patch talk, learning about what he is doing, seeing how hard he is fighting.

"....I'm in the 37th year of our hospital project. I thought it was going to take 4 years to build....I'm in the 37th year and I haven't started building the building. Every day I get *more* enthusiastic for it, I *never* get discouraged, or feel it's been hard or difficult, because I know it's the right thing to do......" - Patch Adams - taken from the video below.(The first 40 seconds, are in Brazilian, after that, Patch delivers his highly illuminating and inspirational reply.)

Patch Adams - A Revolutionary Way of Thinking

He is changing the outlook from 'money' to 'love' However, until the American people themselves choose to run with that, they will have a system which continues to de-sensitise and de-humanise, and that has nothing to do with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:55 PM

If I needed a hysterectomy, I wouldn't be able to get one at all here in the US, no matter how long I waited. That's not a system. It's the absence of a system.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:46 PM

Learned about half hour ago that a friend (middle 40s) of my wife's who lives in one of those European Universal Health Care paradises has been diagnosed with cancer requiring a total hysterectomy. It took several weeks to get the necessary tests, over three weeks to get the results, and it will be five to six weeks, minimum, before she can get the actual surgery.

I'll take our system with all its warts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:37 PM

I don't think we should be giving that money to Egypt, either. We're giving them that money so they'll be compliant with our wishes on the subject of Israel. So that's even more money we're spending for the benefit of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:34 PM

I should point out that I have not said Israel is responsible for the fact that we don't have health care. I have said that if we stopped giving Israel billions of dollars of our tax money, we would be able to afford to provide health care to those of our citizens who don't have it. And we could. As long as we are not taking care of our own citizens, we shouldn't be giving our money away to a country that doesn't need it. We need it. They do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:31 PM

On the subject of Patch Adams, I used to give him a little money every month back in the 80s, even though I couldn't really afford it at the time. And I had an opportunity to talk with him on the phone once. I see he's not really any closer to accomplishing his goal now than he was back then. I don't think he is the answer to the problem of millions of people in the US not having health care. If all of the other industrialized nations in the world can have universal health care systems that their citizens value and appreciate (and they do), so can the people of the US. All we have to do is put our resources into our own country instead of pissing them all away on our own and Israel's imperialist ambitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:23 PM

The Dillards used to speak of the outhouses in rural Missouri which were 20 feet from the house; 20 feet too close in summer, but 20 feet to far in winter. That's what this discussion of the Israel part of the US budget reminds me of, depending on which side one is on. It is my understanding that Egypt gets the same US dollar aid as Israel. Now I have not checked to see if this is still the case, but I know someone will...and they'll give an accurate citation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:46 PM

To all of you who were raised on New Math, let us go back to simple arithmetic. If the US federal budget is 3 trillion dollars and Israel gets 2.4 billion, that is about 8 ten thousanths (8/10,000) of the federal budget. It ain't 1.6%!!! Corruption and fraud are at least 30%. Israel is not responsible for any damage to our economy nor is it a drain on our resources. Please rail against fraud and corruption. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:35 PM

We need the money we are giving to Israel. Israel does not need it. Again, I question whether anyone in any other industrialized country would be willing to have many billions of dollars of their tax money being given to a country that doesn't need it, while they are not able to get health care to millions of their own citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:33 PM

Read paragraph three and weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:33 PM

Thu Jun 5, 4:17 PM

By Richard Cowan


"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Democratic-controlled Congress on Thursday adopted a $3 trillion U.S. budget for next year as the House of Representatives put the finishing touches on a measure to eliminate deficits by 2012 while spending more than President George W. Bush wanted for domestic programs.

By a partisan vote of 214-210, the House approved the nonbinding Democratic budget that sketches out spending priorities for the next five years -- through a new president's term.

The Senate approved an identical measure on Wednesday, embracing Bush's continuation of a military buildup that sets aside more than $500 billion for national defense next year."

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:32 PM

Well, in reality, why would the US be sending money to Israel? We might propell social security another generation down the road, and there are dozens of countries around the world who need financial help worse than they do. I just doesn't make sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:30 PM

I am allowed to discuss the subject that is being discussed in the thread. This is what I am doing. I have not referred to any individual posters in any of my posts since I was informed of this rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:28 PM

"I can't think of a single post I have ever read by Carol which justifies that. Maybe I've missed the ones you refer to - but I think it more likely that you are reading into them what you imagine to be there, and assume that criticism has to be based on hatred."

How about extreme dislike? That make you feel better?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:26 PM

You will set up universal health care with 1.6% of your national debt. Huh. Guess Israel IS to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM

The amount of money we are giving to Israel, if we kept it, would make it possible for us to set up a universal health care system. They don't need it. We do.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM

You posted to me.

The percent is about 1.6 of the American debt. How then does Israel end up responsible for the US having no health care?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:22 PM

I'm telling what I have been told by Joe Offer. I have been told that I am not allowed to respond directly to any posters, and I am not allowed to quote from or make similar kinds of references to any particular post. I am allowed to post information, which is what I am doing when I say that I am not allowed to respond to posters. I challenge anyone to try to figure out how to follow a rule like that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 PM

The total American debt is close to seven or eight TRILLION dollars. But the Israelis caused you to have no health care. Right.