The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

"Well, don't feel sorry for me. I have an open and enquiring mind, and certainly don't need to be condescended to or patronised by anybody who seems to think they have the answers. I'm free-thinking and will take nobody's word for anything, least of all the wishy-washy new-age claptrap you can see all over the place"

Indeedio. I don't really take to being preached to, regardless of which crackpot beliefs are being pedalled.


'The 'new-age crap' you speak of, is actually Ancient Age Belief.'

More new age claptrap. Where is your evidence for this assertion?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:57 AM

Show me a person who has 'all the answers' and I'll show you a very big smile, Stig.

Life's about trying to find the answers to many things...but there are some questions which no-one will ever be able to answer. But you sure as heck ain't gonna find answers for some questions if you've shut and bolted the door.

The 'new-age crap' you speak of, is actually Ancient Age Belief.

Each to their own belief, and that way lies happiness, I guess.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:29 AM

"Bit I believe in many, many things which some people will never have inside them, and for that, I feel a great sorrow, for if you keep your door always closed, then you will never let those who are knocking upon it, inside."

Well, don't feel sorry for me. I have an open and enquiring mind, and certainly don't need to be condescended to or patronised by anybody who seems to think they have the answers. I'm free-thinking and will take nobody's word for anything, ;east of all the wishy-washy new-age claptrap you can see all over the place.

Here's a secret I can reveal: Most of that new-age crap is a marketing ploy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:10 AM

In answer to the post a few above this one:

I have always believed in Faeries, Dragons, Father Christmas, The Man in the Moon, Elves, Unicorns and Mermaids.


Faeries?

Not too long ago I sat listening to Brian Froud, 'the man of Faery', when he gave a talk in Exeter Museum. An amazing man, so incredibly kind, with a very special magic about him. He believes, you see. 100%, and he believes because he's seen them. You try and talk him out of that, and see what happens. Of course, you have to have the kind of Spirit that believes in so many things that the majority of people never actually see, so not all are given access to the Faeries, or indeed the Angels. They choose you, not the other way around.

Brian sees Faeries, has conversations with them, and if you ask me, he is protected by them, infused with them (yes, Infused With Faery) The most amazing artist with more than a touch of magic in his paintings.

Brian Froud

Dragons?

Dragons have walked this land, ask St. George, and Elliot...and Barney. Just because no archaelogist has yet named bones of certain animals, 'Dragons' does not mean they've never existed. But then I still believe in The Power of Puff, and far from Puff being about the loss of childhood, for me, Puff lives on forever inside all those who never 'discard' their childhood.

Father Christmas is alive in the Spirit of giving and caring. He doesn't live in a red suit, at the North Pole, but he lives insides the hearts of those who understand that giving is far better than receiving.

The Man in the Moon shines out over us all, each evening, caring for us. He even has his own song from Reg Meuross on 'Short Stories':

The Man in the Moon

The Man in the Moon (by Reg Meuross)

"I took a walk one night just to ease my head
I had a lot of things on my mind
A lot of words that hadn't been said
I sat down on a cemetery bench
To watch the clouds roll by
Seemed to be just me and the moon
And he seemed to be staring me straight in the eye
Was it the words in my head looking for a little space
Or did i hear a still small voice
Coming from the big white face
He said

I am the man in the moon let me be your light
I will listen til the sun comes up all through the cold dark night
I am the man in the moon who do you want me to be
I'll be your friend if you need a friend bring your troubles to me

I know you're gonna say that i must be crazy
That i gotta be crazy to believe
That there's somebody up there somewhere
And he's been talking to me
Some believe in a god and a freedom of choice
I believe in the power of the light
Snd the power of the still small voice
Cos when i needed hope and when i needed faith
I looked up to the brilliant sky and that beautiful face

The sun comes up and everybody gets happy
Giving thanks for a brand new day
I can't wait til the sun goes down and i hear my new friend say
You can be blue if you want to
Talk about yourself just as long as you like
Come to me if you don't feel sunny
Everybody needs a little moonlight"


Unicorns?

Beloved of those who 'see' with their hearts, since this Earth first came into being. Hidden forever from all those who see only through science.



Elves?

They are very much alive and well here in Mudcat, no doubt you yourself have spoken to them from time to time.


Mermaids?

There is one who sits in Copenhagen Harbour, recorded for all to see. And there is another who sits here in this room with me, the only painting my daughter loves, for she feels she didn't paint it (she did). She has no confidence in her artwork, and cannot see what others see, but this painting, this was something special. She has no memory of painting The Mermaid, none at all, as she went 'to a different place' that day. By the evening, as the Man in the Moon shone his light down, through her attic window, The Mermaid had been given life, probably brought to us by a magical Unicorn, to live with my daughter and make her believe in herself. She has no memory of painting her, all she remembers is holding the painting out in the rain, through her window. Then staring at her in confusion, as she was sealed with the very water that gives her life.

The Mermaid


Compassionate Tories?

I believe that Compassionate Politicians are born, not made. They may belong to any party, and when they become its Leader, then many others of Compassion will follow them, and the Dispassionate will leave immediately. Any party who has a Compassionate Leader will go on to do great things. I have never belonged to one party, or one set of beliefs. The Man Maketh The Politician, not the Party Title. And it is the Man I would vote for, not the Party, because some people are born to lead, to turn everything around.


Those who do not have Magic in their Soul will never believe.

Those who are so bigoted that they seek to judge all men, label them, make them remain in 'a box' for the rest of their lives, will never understand.

I am no class, no colour, no political belief, no one paper reader, no scientist.

Bit I believe in many, many things which some people will never have inside them, and for that, I feel a great sorrow, for if you keep your door always closed, then you will never let those who are knocking upon it, inside.

The Knock At The Door

"When was the last time you...".......Believed?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:28 AM

Fortunately there is a great deal of evidence in support of the activity and endurance of the human spirit.

No there ain't.

If you can get away with bald assertion, so can I.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:12 AM

' "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin'

Oh, the irony...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM

"My overriding concern is, however unlikely I believe it to be, if there should turn out to be one, that it operates on the strict principles of apartheid with WAV & madlizziecornish in one sector and me in the other."



"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." - Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:58 PM

"Sagan was a genius."

Indeed!!

I remember his saying something of this nature on the Cosmos television series. It rang a very large gong in my head at the time.

I have the book. I'll have a bit of a search.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Madame Ruth sans biscuit
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

Things we all must believe in now because there is no absolute evidence that they don't exist:

All cryptozoological creatures, including Bigfoot, the Jersey Devil, and the Loch Ness monster

Fairies

Dragons

Compassionate Tories

Father Christmas

The Man in the Moon

Elves

Unicorns

Mermaids


Not only must we now believe in them (simply because we can't prove that they DON'T exist), we must also construct elaborate belief-systems around all of these creatures, in whom we now have an unshakeable faith, and expect them to use their powers to Save the Cheerleader and Save the World. How they are meant to do this i'm not certain, but some things Just Aren't Meant To Be Known. *Nods very wisely*

I'm just off to pray to Trixie, the gnome at the bottom of my garden.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM

Amos - "Fortunately there is a great deal of evidence in support of the activity and endurance of the human spirit."

Where? Who has verified it? Have all other possible explanations for the observed phenomena been ruled out?

"Unfortunately, physicists can't apply it to molecules, so they get snarky about it."

I'm not surprised.


WaV - What is your poem about? Can you explain it?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

Congratulations to David Franks. It is almost beyond belief that he will ever be able to top this one in his long list of meaningless drivel. This latest "thing".....whatever it is...... has no meaning that I can discern.

THIS is supposed to enlighten the world and show us all a better way? To do what exactly?

LMAO.....Doesn't even qualify as tripe or crap!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 06:20 AM

"Excellent quote, stigweard. Do you happen to remember which of Carl Sagan's books it's in?"

Actually, I realised my post was somewhat garbled and re-reading it I gave the impression I lifted the quote from Carl Sagan when I actually only lifted the idea, the words were mine (although how much is my original thought remains to be seen).

I'm pretty sure it came from his book Cosmos, but I have misplaced my copy so can't give you a reference.

In some ways this was the single most powerful ideas I have ever read in print. It actually allows us to construct a moral code that doesn't rely on religion at all, but hard scientific evidence. In my opinion the very idea we are the universe made conscious is far more awe-inspiring than anything man could dream up alone. It confirms the value of every life on the planet (or anywhere else), affirms it's sanctity and shows us we are all equal and don't need someone telling us we're at the behest of some omnipotent phantom.

Here is the true nature of God revealed in all 'his' glory - the living universe itself and everything in it, all it's laws and theorems. A big idea to get your head around! Sagan was a genius.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:45 AM

As Jesus said (allegedly): My god why have you desserted me?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:16 AM

I never pay for a desert - I just usually hve a starter and a main course...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 05:01 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 154 of 230: GETTING TO KNOW GOD

God lets us go
    Our own way -
Until the Day;
    Now and then, though,
He has a Say
    In His own Way -
Prophets to Sow,
    Deserts to Pay.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 08 - 04:21 AM

Of course, there is no-one currently on this planet who can say for sure whether or not there is an "afterlife" and those who are adamant one way or the other are deluded liars. My overriding concern is, however unlikely I believe it to be, if there should turn out to be one, that it operates on the strict principles of apartheid with WAV & madlizziecornish in one sector and me in the other.

Meanwhile, here we are in this snapshot of time in a miniscule backwater of the universe far too insignificant for any, almost certainly mythical, supreme being to be arsed about how it's getting screwed up by wilfully ignorant, self-obsessed, po-faced, tedious, pompous prats.

It's by far the more pragmatic option to take it that our short spans here is all there is. It falls thus to some to de-dross the planet and its fora. Henry Hoovers out, chaps.

If there were any god (however busy), he / she / it would surely have proscribed the sanctimonious Daily Mail and all the anti-intellectual, middle-England, moronic mediocrity it encapsulates. Small wonder that its readership harbours such ludicrous notions of what English culture is.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:57 PM

Fortunately there is a great deal of evidence in support of the activity and endurance of the human spirit. Unfortunately, physicists can't apply it to molecules, so they get snarky about it.


A

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:37 PM

"The only possible evidence for the non-existence of something is the complete lack of evidence for its existence." (me)

Actually that's not quite right.. sorry. It's possible to prove the existence of something which precludes the existence of the first thing.. But that could be construed as 'positing entities beyond necessity' :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:04 PM

Lizzie

The glass is actually both half empty and half full at the same time, so using your own analogy you must have 'Absolute Faith' in something with 'no Existence Whatsoever'..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:30 PM

I try to keep mine well and truly boggled Don..

Isn't that what minds are for?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:13 PM

Wow! I must confess to a certain boggling of the mind!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

Sigh...    The 'evidence' is out there waiting for you in bucketloads, but first...you have to die.

I think that's a bit harsh for pointing out a simple logical fallacy.. How then shall I die, oh wise and holy one?

I didn't say "No Evidence, therefore no Existence Whatsoever", nor did I imply it. I was simply not accepting the burden of proof, as it is most definitely yours. I cannot be expected to either prove nothing or prove an absence of something intangible which you are positing. I meant that it is impossible for me to provide any evidence beyond that which you already possess, that being an absence of it. It's a bit like accusing someone of a crime for which you have no evidence and about which you have no meaningful information, and expecting them to prove their innocence.

And the Tooth Faery's money supply? You tell me you don't know where she gets the money from, but you know that souls don't exist????

I didn't say that I know that souls don't exist either. I've never come across any evidence that they do yet though... Please don't tell me I have to die again.. WaV never used to be like that..

Thanks for the toothfairy info though, economics is not my forte, and I'd never heard of the salt trick. Firstborn has yet to lose his gnashers, and I want to do the right thing by him, obviously. What's the current exchange rate?

**************
Don - Where is your evidence that the toothfairy doesn't exist?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:49 PM

"The only possible evidence for the non-existence of something is the complete lack of evidence for its existence."


Sigh...

The 'evidence' is out there waiting for you in bucketloads, but first...you have to die. :0)

This does of course, make it slightly tricky to write up a 100,000 word scientific thesis on the matter, but, that's just the way it is, and it ain't *ever* going to change.

Half Empty
Half Full

No Evidence, therefore no Existence Whatsoever
No Evidence, therefore Absolute Faith

Whichever feels right, I guess.



And the Tooth Faery's money supply? You tell me you don't know where she gets the money from, but you know that souls don't exist????

She gets it from the Faery Jewellers, who need tiny teeth to make the necklaces, earrings, bracelets, brooches and tiaras, so beloved by Faeries. They make silver castings from them. The teeth have to be perfect though, no cracks or chips from where they've dropped..and that's why you always need to leave the tooth in salt, so the Faery can get a far better grip on it when she flutters in.

You don't believe me?

Notice the Tooth Tiara

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:44 PM

I think she gets her silver dimes from the same place that the Lone Ranger got his silver bullets.

Don Firth

P. S. A question just occurred to me:   regarding the silver bullets, did the Lone Ranger have a pathelogical fear of werewolves?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

What I want to know though, is where the toothfairy gets her money from. Is that one of those things that we are just never meant to know?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 05:54 PM

LizzieC - Really, and you know this, for certain, that the soul does not continue after death? How do you know? Evidence, if possible, please.

That is a logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. If you have no evidence don't make the claim in the first place. The only possible evidence for the non-existence of something is the complete lack of evidence for its existence.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM

Ah. To complete the possible alternative theories in my second paragraph above, "Also--if there is no evidence for this, then I cannot necessarily say that it isn't true. All I can say is that I have no evidence."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:54 PM

"It just takes so many scientists all their lives to work that one out."

Well, I think they already have worked that out, and most scientists, including those with a religious bent, are smart enough to keep those concepts separate. "There is evidence for this, so I'm pretty sure that it's true. There is no evidence for this, so if I want to believe it, I have to take it on faith."

Soul? I don't know what that is. Awareness? Consciousness? Yes, of course. But are they the same thing? I don't know. Neither, for that matter does anyone else.

As to an afterlife, this is also a matter where I chose to "let the mystery be." I cannot conceive of the idea that my consciousness will not continue after I fall off the twig. And I think this is the same with everyone, hence the persistence of a belief in an afterlife (including many elaborate scenarios about what it will be like). Yet we lose consciousness when we sleep. The confusing part of it is that we regain it (most of us do, anyway) when we wake up.

I don't sweat the matter of an afterlife for two reasons:   first, I can do nothing about whether there is an afterlife or not. What is, is. Second, when my time comes to shuffle off this cortal moil, if there is and afterlife, it will be a whole new adventure. If there is no afterlife, I will have no longer have a consciousness with which to be disappointed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:29 PM

"Who does the supposing?"

Whoever it was who gave us the question that has no answer.


"What's a soul got to do with that?
When I'm gone, I'm gone...Thats it."

How do you know that?


"There is no afterlife. Deal with it!"

I have no need to deal with something in which I don't believe. I believe there is an afterlife, and I believe there have been many lives before.


"If there is a God, Why does he/she/it allow wars?"

It is we ourselves, as a species, who create the wars. Things happen, sometimes terrible things happen, but you cannot blame 'God' for those things. That's opting out of human responsibility.

"Ignorance is bliss."

I wouldn't know, I am not ignorant.


"..Should a definite proof source for "no god" show up or if he one day popped up out of the pea patch, that would be just fine. But if neither happens its okay with me..."

The thing is, no evidence will *ever* show up. It just takes so many scientists all their lives to work that one out.

:0)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:15 PM

Excellent quote, stigweard. Do you happen to remember which of Carl Sagan's books it's in?

Don (long time Carl Sagan fan) Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM

200

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:00 PM

I wasn't here until 1954

An auspicious year for a folkie to be born, Ralphie. I myself didn't get here until August 1961, only a month or so before Chico Marx departed, but it's nice that our paths crossed however so briefly in this realm of shadows. Before her stroke, my mother let slip that she once saw Chico at the Sunderland Empire, though not, of course, during November 1960 - what I wouldn't give to be the bastard son of Chico Marx.

Twice in my life Don Cherry smiled at me; I've also smoked cigarettes with Marshall Allen; when I was 15 I received a letter from Daevid Allen; when I was 5 I shook hands with Jimmy Clitheroe; during his reading at the Durham Literature Festival a few years back Vic Reeves used one of our Handy Andys to stuff up his mouth to do the voice of Inspector Fowler, The American Eagle. For those of us without religion, such bessings are worth counting.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:44 AM

Just had random echoes between 'myth' and 'mirth', resounding through my head. Bluddy 'ell, only Trickster Gods know why...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

"But sometimes, the answer is....that there are *no* answers."

Ignorance is bliss.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:33 AM

The essential element of the happy agnostic is the wonderment of NOT knowing and being satisfied if that is forever the case. Should a definite proof source for "no god" show up or if he one day popped up out of the pea patch, that would be just fine. But if neither happens its okay with me. Many theists and atheists alike seem determined that my happiness can only be complete by whichever they support. Reality is sorta' like the Gordon Liddy story........

Remember Gordon Liddy? One of Nixon's minions of Watergate fame? Liddy did this thing to prove his machismo to those he would employ by holding his hand over a candle flame until the flesh burned and charred. Someone once asked him what the trick was. Liddy replied, "The trick is not minding."

I don't "KNOW." I don't mind.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM

The reason scientists are so dismissive of religion generally is that it doesn't question all

Yes. I have periodic arguments with my son, who's 13 and (in his words) a theist. He thought the Big Bang was his trump card (something must have caused it) - but, as I pointed out, scientists are quite happy to say that something caused it and we don't know what. To say we don't know what caused this, so it must have been God... well, to me it just takes all the wonder out of life. Something started it all, and we don't know what - isn't that amazing?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:03 AM

Lizzie. What is this soul of which you speak?
I wasn't here until 1954.....I am here now(for a bit), And then I wont be here. Whenever that will be.
What's a soul got to do with that?
When I'm gone, I'm gone...Thats it.
There is no afterlife. Deal with it!
If there is a God, Why does he/she/it allow wars?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

. There are things we are never supposed to know about.

Who does the supposing?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:53 AM

The whole point of faith, Paul, is that *nothing* can be proved in the science lab.

You cannot prove there is life after death, True.

You also cannot prove that there is not. Also true.

Science does not hold all the answers, and it never will, ever, no matter how much money is poured into it, or intelligence, or knowledge. There is, quite simply, some knowledge that is beyond even our reach, as humans. There are things we are never supposed to know about. It's driven those with scientific minds crazy for centuries, because the **need** to know ALL the answers is the most important thing in the world to them.

But sometimes, the answer is....that there are *no* answers.

Faith is learning to accept the unacceptable, and knowing that sometimes, we are not *supposed* to know. Once you get your head around that, you're almost there...And once you let go of science, and learn to *listen* to what your soul tells you, you're there completely.

Faith does not live in the Laboratory.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

Evidence?

- that the soul can be damaged by simple chemicals, like ethanol, and that the removal of those chemicals sometimes allows the soul to recover its previous characteristics.
- that people whose brain has been damaged mechanically can also have aspects of their intellectual ability damaged, and their behaviour sometimes completely modified.
- that electrical and mechanical impulses can induce feelings, including religious "visions".
- that no one has ever produced evidence of contact between extracorporeal spirits and humans, though many have tried and many have pretended to do so. If you can, or know someone who can, there's a million dollar reward waiting for you.

No doubt someone will say, ah but, it's the brain that gets damaged, not the soul. OK, show me a characteristic of the soul which can't be explained as a function of the brain. And living-after-death won't do, unless you can show it. And OOBEs won't do, because they can be induced in the lab. We are all to willing to be fooled at times.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 09:20 AM

"...The soul as a process working within the mind is worth thinking about. Like the religious soul, it has no weight, it isn't made of anything (it's really just movement), yet it contains all we are as humans. The main difference is it doesn't continue after death (ion movements and neurotransmitters need a living brain),...."

Really, and you know this, for certain, that the soul does not continue after death?

How do you know?

Evidence, if possible, please.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:33 AM

Good quote Stig. Note though that "spiritual" is very much a weasel word- it can easily change meaning in mid- argument, or even in mid- sentence. Being "spiritual" isn't the same thing as claiming that the "spirit" is somehow a separate entity from the body. The soul as a process working within the mind is worth thinking about. Like the religious soul, it has no weight, it isn't made of anything (it's really just movement), yet it contains all we are as humans. The main difference is it doesn't continue after death (ion movements and neurotransmitters need a living brain), and it can't be saved or punished except when the body is alive. There- that's one "is" that implies an "ought"!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM

"It seems to operate on similar levels of faith and dogmatic certainty and occult mystery"

Not really. Scientists are taught to question everything, even their own findings and never take anything for granted. They are of course subject to the very human failing of occasionally being wrong, opinionated or political but the who isn't? The reason scientists are so dismissive of religion generally is that it doesn't question all (Buddhism being an exception but relies on blind faith and ignorance).

I do believe that humans are spiritual creatures however and I once read something that for me summed it all up (I posted this here back in 2006):

We know the universe thinks because we think. Our very being is made from the raw materials the rest of the cosmos is made from - the same molecules and elements that make stars, comets, planets and galaxies. If at the most basic level we are simply the result of self-replicating molecular chains coalesing together to form complex biological machines, if our thoughts and emotions are simple a series of electrical impulses firing neurons and jumping synapses, we can think, see and feel.

We and life on our planet are the universe made conscious - and we can contemplate ourselves and our environment. This thought in itself is quite awesome in the truest sense of the word (as opposed to Bill and Ted's sense). It doesn't require a divine being to create us, it provides a far more sound basis for a moral and ethical framework than any religion which by it's very nature is trying to forward it's own agenda. It respects the sanctity of all life whilst acknowledging the role of science and the arts in our development.

This whole idea is based on what many would call cold, hard science, but the spiritual dimension to the concept is evident, and far more powerful that anything you could be told to believe by an priest or vicar or imam or rabbi - it is self-revelation in it's purest form. It provides a context for everything that has occured since mankind first contemplated the moon and sun and wondered what it all meant. This concept provides a context to our place in the great scheme of things that religion struggles to provide but strangely enough, sounds very religious in it's own right.*


* I can't take credit for this idea, as I originally read it in a Carl Sagan book.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:26 AM

PS - When I was a kid I used to work myself up into knots with various paradoxes, the most persistent of which was do with why things work. For example, if televisions, remedies, steam engines, trumpets, and loudspeakers (for example) aren't found in nature (and are therefore unnatural) - why do they work? Then I thought that because such potentiality existed as part of the natural scheme, then that fact alone betokened the existence of some benign creative force who had inbuilt such wonders, albeit hidden away, much as we hid Easter Eggs from the little ones, so we might delight in the look of joy upon their faces when they discover them. Then I thought that it's all a myth anyway, given that the only absolute is the anthropocentricity which will forever forbid us from attaining a position of True Objectivity, no matter what...

These days I might use this as an argument against homophobes who justify their irrational hostility by maintaining that homosexuality somehow isn't natural and therefore represents a perversion of some Holy Law of Naturalness, God-given of course. I think it was Huysmans who wrote God might well have created Man, but Man, Sir - Man invented the steam engine!

I'm just off to open today's door on the advent calendar...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM

but considering the billions of stars in this galaxy and the billions of galaxies and the distances between them and all that, how the hell can anyone have ANY concept of god?

Too right - and yet scientists still speak of the overarching laws of physical nature, none of which make any sort of sense to my non-mathematical brain. To what extent is science the new religion anyway? It seems to operate on similar levels of faith and dogmatic certainty and occult mystery that might justify the billions spent on the Large Hadron Collider which I imagine future generations puzzling over much as we might puzzle over Stonehenge.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM

"Bollocks Lizzie."

How eloquently put, Paul.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 04:29 AM

"That point being that for some strange reason Christianity has become the *one* religion that so many feel they can kick, insult and make fun of, yet if the very people *they* are belittling dared to behave in the same way about *other* religions, all 'racist' hell would, I have no doubt, break loose."

Oooh, I feel another Daily Mail headline coming on...


"Whatever your religion or belief I hope it makes you feel good and brings joy or at least adds to the meaning of your life. That's the role of religion it seems to me. My small request is that none of it be inflicted upon Ol' Spaw..............."

Loving your work there, Spaw. I'd add "that none of it be inflicted on my child, especially while she is being educated at a state-funded school," but in the UK that's a bit of a conceptual leap.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:10 AM

Bollocks Lizzie. As I pointed out, all religions I've been able to think of so far have similar flaws- their morality only applies when they haven't got the power to dominate. Christianity just happens to be the one that's trying to dominate the USA, and therefore impinges most on the world. And "honest simple believers" play the role of the "useful idiots" who really believed in Soviet communism.

Smokey- you're treading on dangerous ground. Not believing in leprechauns? I was banjaxed by them once, I only saved myself by turning my coat inside out and reciting five Hail Marys, an Our Father and a Glory Be.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:01 AM

I don't have 'religion' Don, never have had. I have faith, but one that belongs to only me, not to any category. I simply don't like the ganging up that goes on in these threads, that's all, nor the hypocrisy I see, in that some people feel they have the right to say whatever they want, and yet have the view that others don't. You can argue a point without becoming vicious. This is *not* directed at you personally, but generally, to those who've perhaps got a little carrried away in the past, that's all.

The reason I picked up on the Christianity bit was to make a point. That point being that for some strange reason Christianity has become the *one* religion that so many feel they can kick, insult and make fun of, yet if the very people *they* are belittling dared to behave in the same way about *other* religions, all 'racist' hell would, I have no doubt, break loose.

*That* was the point.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout cum Talkabout
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:25 PM

An atoothfairyist? Come on Don, you'll be telling me Santa doesn't exist next. Wicked heretic. I suppose you get your kicks out of persecuting poor young toothfairyists - does it give you a smug warm glow of superiority to see their tearful little faces whimpering with disappointment? I'm surprised you can sleep at nights. Monster.

On the other hand, there is no conclusive evidence for the existence of leprechauns. And they're not English.