BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:46 PM

It's unfair for anyone to give an opinion about what the elderly lady should or should not have done. She is allowed to make a comment (or a complaint -- although it doesn't sound as though it was actually a complaint) and have the matter addressed. Also it's irrelevant, albeit an interesting subject for discussion, whether the rule broken here is fair.

Off to gaze at dachshunds -- or maybe that fawn and kitty-cat film.

Just wondering though. Does God really want or need this kind of help? Had He not noticed He was needed?

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM

so why are we

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Thank you, Frank. One important distinction, though, you said:
...if I ask you to pray with me or for me or for someone else and you say 'no I don't believe in it', I should not bring it up again. If I do, then we have a problem and I would agree with you.

The elderly woman in this case did NOT ask her to pray with or for her. If she had, there would be no case. Also, the nurse had already been told by her employer NOT to bring up the subject, again.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

Circular argument - no good trying to add anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Yeah, I know... (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM

LH, posting is inevitable. It's Silly Season, when all want to talk and few/none can hear.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

Lizzie Cornish wrote: But this is being totally over the top. ALL she said was something very mild...and WHOOOOOOOOOSH! people have fallen over sideways in absolute horror, accusing her of this and that and everything else!

Is it "really mild" though? Despite all the analogies made on this thread are you truly objective enough to decide whether this was "really mild"? Can you stand apart from your own beliefs far enough to be genuinely objective over this to decide whether it's a big issue or not?

I get real miffed at being made to appear a right dingbat, purely because I don't do this 'over-analysing' and 'ah, yes but what did she *really* mean?' part.

I'm not aware of anyone making you out to be a 'right dingbat' on this thread. I disagree with you on the topic but I don't think you're a "dingbat" or "daft old biddy" for doing so. We just disagree on this particular subject and we agree on others. I'm not so fickle that I'll get personal over one thing and then 'forget' that I thought you a dingbat or daft old biddy when it comes to something we do agree on.

"olafr, if I'd fallen off the ladder whilst decorating, I'd have sat in hospital thinking to myself, "You daft ol' biddy! Now look what you've gorn and done!" and smiled through the pain. I'd certainly have not once even entertained the idea of suing my bosses, or the people who made the ladders, or the paintbrushes, the paint or the wobbly carpet".

That's not quite what I'm on about, Lizzie. The accident would have had to have been reported in your firm's accidents book - insurance ramifications &c.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM

ARGH!!!! The controversy!

I could get involved in this thread. I could. But I'm not going to. ;-) Try looking at videos of dachshunds if you want a pleasant lift in your mood today.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Pseudolus at Work
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

It's not the Christians that have their panties in a bunch, I am reacting to the "she's forcing her views" attacks. Read the reactions again, the anger certainly has not come from me.

I know that the nurse should know the restrictions but I'm talking about a situation where medically she has no restrictions and from a medical standpoint she can have those things but refuses the offer.

I agree Kat that the conversation is Apples and Oranges but that in a way is part of my point. Why does it have to be that way? Yes, feelings go much deeper when it comes to Religion but if I ask you to pray with me or for me or for someone else and you say 'no I don't believe in it', I should not bring it up again. If I do, then we have a problem and I would agree with you. If I don't, then what happened? I offered, you said know, we learned a little bit about each other and for the life of me I can't see why that's a bad thing.

I still say it wasn't forcing her beliefs just because it was in the woman's home.   If we find out that there was more to the story like a repeat of the question or some arm twisting then I totally agree with the complaints, but as it is stated, She asked a question, she respected the answer, end of story. To me, any anger over that is an over reaction.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Local news watcher
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM

here is a short internet report from ITV West news.
It may be using footage edited down from a longer report
broadcast a few days ago.


search "prayer nurse suspended"

http://www.itvlocal.com/west/?player=WST_HomePage_15&void=282844

..and remember this is the subject of an industrial relations dispute..
not a religious witch-hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM

Oy vey, WYSIWYG... the real world is the one we live in!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

I'm not laughing, SP is absolutely right. Just one thing: how to ensure those nuns don't get in my room if I'm unfortunate enough to end up in hospital again.

Actually, I think it's considerably worse that this nurse was peddling her prayers in the woman's home into which she was admitted for some legitimate medical purpose, but which she subsequently abused. It's bad enough when these cranks come ringing the doorbell on a Sunday morning but as long as you are not in this woman's presumably vulnerable state, you can tell them to . . . close the gate after themselves. And in a hospital ward you can at least yell for security (just like on Holby City).

If anyone actuallywants this sort of intervention, it can be arranged - as previously mentioned - through the chaplain, just as the local SWP branch can also be summoned quite easily on request.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:58 PM

A reminder to some of my Christian friends. When we accepted Jesus as Lord, we gave up our "rights" in favor of something higher. Our "right" to free speech has been bought, and paid for. Our new "rights" are in the Kingdom, not in the secular world.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: open mike
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM

i recentlyu went in for a medical procedure and the Dr. asked if he could pray before it. I said o.k. if it made him feel better or if
he thought it would improve the outcome. It took me off guard when
he asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

Seems to me that the Christians on this board have got their underpants in a twist over the simple request that nurses stick to what they are employed to do - nursing. It's not rocket science, you know.

If I found out that any of the nurses or social workers on my team were using their position of power and authority to feed their religious or political views to any of the vulnerable and severely mentally ill individuals we are employed to care for, they would be in trouble, make no mistake. Their professional codes of conduct are sacrosanct and not open to random negotiation. You take on the job, you get paid for it, you can't then pick and choose which bits of the value base you think should apply to you.

This isn't because I'm some kind of politically correct spoilsport. It's because its the thin end of a very dodgy wedge. If I let Nurse A offer prayers to service users do I then let nurse B sell Socialist Worker? Or canvas votes for the National Front? Or offer an exorcism?

You may say haven't we got something better to deal with, but I would counter that the ethical issues around health and social care provision are pretty damned important to most of us working in the field. If we took the "common sense" approach and ditched them you really wouldn't like the results. Trust me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Local news watcher
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:46 PM

This story was reported on West Country TV news a couple of days ago.
I missed the first half of the report, which I guess was about 5 mins long.
My impression was that this 'news report' was less than objective,
being subtley biased in favour of the christian viewpoint.
All christian interviewees and local church representatives
were presented in a flattering and uncritical manner
and given full oportunity to present their case
as if it was completly without reproach.
The nurse in question was framed positively as an 'attractive' caring woman
who has been wronged by an overofficious inhumane 'big brother' beaurocracy.
However she somewhat undermined her sypathetic TV showcasing
by appearing to be smug, and unsuccesessfully stifling
a constant smirking expression of superiority.

There, thats my 'objective' report on how this industrial relations dispute
has been reported by 'conservative' local West Country TV news.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM

Just to keep the facts as we know them straight: she has not lost her job and it was in the elderly woman's home, not in hospital.

As for the food analogies: religion/spirituality issues are more amorphous/intangible and usually much deeper than not liking a certain type of food or unable to tolerate a certain type of food. Granted those allergies are important to know about, but they also are part of the realm of care which a nurse should know about and render. Apples and oranges, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM

The "what religion" question at hospital is just to help hospital chaplains know which rooms to stop by (or which church to call if things go badly).

In the US a credentialed visiting clergyperson used to be able to look at the daily census to see if any of his/her folks were in. Now HIPA precludes that courtesy; hooking them up with patients who want a visit falls to floor nurses who MIGHT look at that question on the chart and who might, or might not, make the time to ask social services to make a phone call to the clergy.

Parish members don't always know that this used to work that way, and that it has changed. In an accusatory tone: "I was having an OPERATION!!! Why didn't you come to SEE me!?!?!?"

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

Lets get real on this.

A lot of the hospitals in the UK are in disgusting condition and I would be more worried about what I might pick up whilst being in hospital, than somebody offering a prayer.
Who knows she might have wanted to offer a prayer hoping that the patient wouldn't get MRSA or a mistake occurring etc.

I would be more worried if she was offering somebody a drink or food when they were NIL BY MOUTH

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Pseudolus at Work
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

It's baffling to me that this was even an issue. The reactions in this thread were to the story as it was told so for the moment, let's assume that the description of events happened exactly as described. A Prayer was offered, it was declined, end of story. Nothing was forced. If she had offered a sandwich and the person was a vegetarian and declined, would she be accused of forcing her carnivorous views on the patient? Most likely not. If she were offered a glass of milk and was told no because the patient was lactose intolerant, would she have been fired for forcing her dairy position on the patient? Not so much… But as soon as religion enters into the fray, the same offer, without any pressure, just a simple question brings out anger and accusations of forced prayer as if she had held a gun to her head. I understand that on many levels this type of thing makes people feel like their space is being intruded upon but let's not forget that she did not force the issue and the patient herself said in the complaint that it didn't bother her but it might bother other people which is why she complained. If offers like this are vilified to the point of losing one's job then where does it stop? If people have to fear loss of employment then it could diminish offers of help of any kind to the point where we will all be on our own. I heard it said that what if the person doesn't feel like they have the right to say no for fear that they wouldn't get the appropriate care. Has there been any evidence that her care level dropped for those who refused the offer of a prayer?

I am a Christian. If someone is in need, I will pray for them, it is what I do and yes I will offer to pray with someone…it is who I am. But I am constantly told that I need to stop being who I am to appease those that disagree. If someone forced the issue I would agree that they have gone too far but if I make an offer to pray and it is refused, then both the person who I made the offer to and I would have been true to themselves…what is wrong with that?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

I rembmer Scotland as known as God's country but then megan L who knows or thinks they do has called me racist so I find that bullying of the worst kind

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

"get real and get their panties bunched over REAL issues, not this sort of stupid crap. It's playground stuff."

But it IS nice to know that if this is the worst thing that people have to complain about then their life is pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM

Once I woke up in a South German hospital having driven back from a festival in the North feeling more and more ill by the mile. Surrounding my bed were half a dozen nuns who chorused Gott sei Dank as I opened my eyes. I couldn't get out of that fucking hospital quickly enough. I put my total and immediate recovery down to excellent German medical care. Not "prayers".

It irritates me beyond measure that whenever I have to attend hospital (for a hurt finger or something), they want to know what religion I subscribe to. None. None of their business anyway. Just do your jobs and fix the sodding finger. And keep your "prayers" well away from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

It's crystal-clear to anyone who hasn't got their head stuck up their own arse that some people spend their lives actively seeking to find offence in anything and everything they see or hear.

These dopes need to grow up, get real and get their panties bunched over REAL issues, not this sort of stupid crap. It's playground stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

Forgive me pointing this out again but no faith was 'imposed' on anyone.. an offer was made.

The very offer of a prayer is an imposition of faith, based on the presupposition that the faith of the believer is somehow relevant to others, which, of course, it isn't. Offering to pray for someone is not delivering care based on best available evidence, nor is it demonstrating a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity. It is, in fact, an abuse of a privileged position for personal ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM

I believe that I would rather have prayer cards left - without comment- after a nurse's visit than a verbal offer to pray with/for me.

That would allow me to tell her gently on her next visit that I'd rather that she did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

Forgive me pointing this out again but no faith was 'imposed' on anyone.. an offer was made. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM

"Question 2)Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not demonstrated a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity... My answer to that is No!!! I am sure she would offer the same to disabled/ethnic minorities/ anyone at all as well as carrying out her work effectively."

My understanding of the commitment to equality and diversity in this instance is to respect the right of others to have a different faith than you, or indeed to have no faith at all. And to respect their right not to have your faith imposed upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

Georgian Silver: no, I did not pray. I do not believe in god.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:49 AM

GUEST Rapunzel. re my post you have stated.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Georgiansilver, this is the code she is said to have broken

NMC Code of Conduct

In particular You must deliver care based on the best available evidence or best practice.

You must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity

and

You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends<<<<<<<<<<

Question 1) Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not delivered care based on the best available evidence or best practice..... My answer to that is No!! That she did her job at the ladys house is not in question.

Question 2)Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not demonstrated a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity... My answer to that is No!!! I am sure she would offer the same to disabled/ethnic minorities/ anyone at all as well as carrying out her work effectively.

Question 3) Is there any evidence to suggest that the nurse has abused her privileged position for her own ends... My answer to that is a categorical NO!!!!!! (Please read the bit about 'altruism' in my previous post.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

I'm with Ms Archer on this one.
A bit of solace is a good thing. (From nurses, Family, Friends etc)
Offer of a prayer? Well, not for me, but it might be nice if I felt so inclined.
Handing out prayer cards??? (Whatever religion) Huge No-No.
I'm with Darwin on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

Oh, for heaven's sake!

I'm with Mike on this, totally.

Throw these stupid rules away, and give this kind and caring nurse her job back.

By the way, I heard today that teachers and policemen are suspended on full pay, pending investigations.

People have gone nuts. Totally nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Rapunzel
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM

Georgiansilver, this is the code she is said to have broken

NMC Code of Conduct

In particular You must deliver care based on the best available evidence or best practice.

You must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity

and

You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:30 AM

Just on a point of fact, Georgiansilver, I can put my hand on my heart and say I have never prayed to a "maker" in times of severe stress - and, like many another, I've had such times. I've never prayed because, even as a small child, I've never believed in anything religious. No big deal, just plain fact. Just got through those times.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:23 AM

Oh come on!!! This nurse offered to do something for someone... even if it is handing a card out the receiver can say no for no further action! (unlike the incessant spam mail that comes into our homes through the letterbox). She was being altruistic which I guess some people won't want to recognise or will find an alternative explanation for. She did it with goodwill in her heart and not for her own purposes. Nowadays, generosity is regarded with suspicion as we are brainwashed into believing 'There has to be a catch' in everything (and everyone) and no-one is to be trusted.
What law has she broken? is the first question and the second is how would you react if someone you know who is Christian didn't offer to pray for your dying relative?.
I can't even conceive of a rule in any profession which says you cannot hand out offers of prayer either verbally or by card.... what was the rule she broke????
Can I also ask you another question...... which one of you, any one.... didn't pray to God when you were in a tight or rock bottom situation??? Many if not all of you know that you did...... Why did you do it??? Because you needed help and we have an inbuilt instinct to pray to our maker in times of dire need... no-one has to tell us to we just do it!......... Alright so that's my opinion!!!!!!
I will offer to pray for anyone... and I mean anyone who is ill or needs help in any way.. I don't hand cards out but I do it verbally and always will.... I have never yet had someone say no in a nasty or offended way.......

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:43 AM

Sorry - having read through the thread again, I had forgotten that the nurse in question was handing out prayer cards/offering to pray in people's homes, not in hospital. In my opinion, this is equally, if not even more, inappropriate. I also agree that this is an employment issue, rather than one about religion: she was told not to do it on a previous occasion, and has carried on regardless. That is why the case is being taken to the lengths it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:29 AM

If I leave my car with a mechanic, I expect it to be serviced or repaired to the specification I asked. I trust him to do his job.

If I get back and my car has been tuned up for more power, had a bigger exhaust fitted or go fast stripes down the side, steering wheel changed for a different one the mechanic thought suited me better...

I would have the option of shouting a lot, demanding my car be put to the specification I trusted him to bring it to, and then I would find a different mechanic.

Old ladies with leg ulcers needing dressing do not have the option of shouting and finding a different nurse. That is why vulnerable people need protecting. We have professionals who are entrusted to protect vulnerable people, we call them nurses.

That is why she cannot be trusted to carry on working whilst her employer sorts this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:59 AM

There was an experiment done on the effects of prayer on hospital patients, and it was not positive.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:54 AM

Jeez, Lizzie, if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing...

SC, I know all about the naughty, outrageous, irrervent and very funny humour of Doctors and Nurses. I worked with them for years, and my best friend was a Nurse too, and no-one has a better sense of humour than she has, she's great!

The other thing that occurs to me is that this so-called war on people's freedom of speech, expression and action does not appear to have had the slightest effect on you or the countless other forum contributors, bloggers, letter writers to local papers, pub philosophers and so on who fill acres of public space with complaints about being silenced by the censorious ways of the politically correct.

In that way, you are clearly the perfect argument against yourself ;-)

Good try, SC...but..er..I've had my freedom of speech removed for infinity and beyond on two messageboards because of those who seek to control what I say, so I disagree wholeheartedly with you there. Sorry. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM

Having very recently been through a pretty tough health scare which included some potentially distressing surgery, I just wanted to add my voice to those who are incredibly humbled by and grateful for the standard of care and level of professionalism and emotional support offered by doctors and nurses in the UK.

My local hospital is only small, but they have a first class fast-track breast clinic. From the moment you walk through the door you are treated with dignity and respect, and fully informed about what is going to happen. Over several weeks I had nurses who held my hand, who let me cry on their shoulders, and who gave me the space I needed to deal with what I was going through as I needed to, not as they thought I should. This, I think, is the responsibility of the healthcare professional - the experience should be led by the patient and their emotional needs, not by misguided proselytising. If anyone had offered to pray for me, I would have responded politely I guess, though I would have found it somewhat inappropriate. If anyone had offered to pray WITH me, I would have probably been quite cross, to be honest, because I think it crosses a certain line of professionalism, is intrusive, and potentially exploits one's very real sense of vulnerability in a particularly distressing situation. As Dan very cogently pointed out, 'Again, the question is, "Whose need am I meeting, here?" If the patient has not been talking about religion, then the answer is probably, "My own." '

As someone with no spirituality to speak of, I believe there is a big difference between the pastoral, emotional care and sensitivity required in these circumstances and some notion of looking after a patient's "spiritual" well-being. It is perfectly possible to give the former without over-stepping into the latter. One of the questions on the hospital admission form is what religion you are. I can't help wondering whether nurses on various wards have access to this information, and whether the nurse in question took the answer into account before handing out prayer cards and offering to pray with people.

I should add that several friends and family who are Christian told me throughout me recent experience, "you're in my prayers". Even though they know I'm not a Christian, this was their way of letting me know they were thinking of me - my friend who is a Wiccan also told me she had her altar at the ready! I found this very sweet and kind. Somehow it is quite different (IMHO) from a stranger, a healthcare professional, in a hospital setting, offering to pray for/with you. Okay, I'm not really sure why. But it is. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM

Dan, I esp. want to thank you for the following:

But the fact is that very few Wiccans (or Muslims, or Jews, or New-Agers, or Hindus) would make such an offer, because they make no assumption that others are likely to practice religion in the way they do. Christians, used to being in the majority, often assume that either (a) others are at least nominally Christian or (b) even non-Christians appreciate petitionary prayer.

Spot on!

I might add, I was very pleased when I told the heart surgeon I wanted to be listening to my visualisation tape as they put me under for the surgery AND wanted it back on for me to wake up to in Recovery. They were very respectful and did just as I'd asked. There was no mention of any kind of religion...just recognition of MY spiritual requests.

But for one nurse, everyone who took care of me was wonderful, too. Dan, there can be exceptions to the rule. I told the "evil" nurse to get out and stay out. I told the rest of them she was not to return to my room and she did not!:->

Nickhere, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

Sleepy Rosie. Awww. That's so good. Thank you from a 64 year-old nurse.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM

Aw shucks, folks. Sure you can pass it on - it's sort of off the top of my head, but if it's helpful, I'm glad.

The CPE that WYSIWYG refers to is Clinical Pastoral Education. Many denominations in various countries require one unit - a full-time summer or a part-time year - as a prerequisite to ordination. About half the time is spent on patient care in a hospital, prison or nursing home, and the other half on group and individual personal and professional development. It's VERY intense. In the US, accredited professional chaplains are generally required to have at least four units of CPE - an internship plus a year long full-time residency. All that is in addition to a Masters in Divinity and ordination by a denomination.

These issues tend to come up a lot.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

Interesting how google selects appropriaste ads to display while we browse threads. On offer at the moment are a Muslim singles dating agency, or an over 50's holiday to see the Oberammergau Passion Play. Good choice!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM

"if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing..."

Hell yes! I could find nothing bad to say about the Nurses I've known. They are the best party animals the good Christian God ever made. The best bunch of real people you'd ever want to meet.

Not a nu-age crystal to be found amongst them as a rule, but some very sick jokes to be sure. And of course an abundance of pragmatic life-saving, earthy human healing love, of the kind that includes cleaning festering sores, washing shitty arses, and pumping stomachs etc.

Most the Nurses I know are earthy, utterly irreligious, materialists. And a few illegal or perhaps 'anarchic' things to boot. Doesn't mean that they are therefore inhumane robots. In fact quite the opposite. At least they don't attribute your sickness to some karmic evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

Interesting that I keep seeing such a large proliferation of Red Herrings here -- mostly from the same side. I see the connection. I went to Sunday school. I know about fish and Christianity. We're being shown the miracle of the loaves and red fishes. Such an interesting world.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Thanks Kat, I think I get what you mean and I'm inclined to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Sleepy Rosie, you asked what would happen if a witch wanted to say a prayer for a catholic. I already posted an answer to that but the post was deleted so I must have said something wrong. I'll pare the answer down this time and hopefully you'll see it. This would be my response anyway, others will have to answer for themselves -

In short, I would just tell her politely 'no, but thanks anyway' and leave it at that on the assumption that he / she meant well. I would only get shirty if he / she persisted after I'd made myself clear (not once, but twice or thrice) in that manner. I wouldn't 'report' on him/ her (though if I understood correctly the old lady didn't 'report' on the woman, but mentioned it as a curiosity to whoever else was helping her)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:24 PM

Dan, not only did your post make sense, I'm copying it (if it's OK) to some of our Episcopal clergy-in-training as a discussion piece. What you wrote is a good illustration of why some of our clergy are welcome and sought in hospital ERS where other denominations' clergy, if they have not done CPE, are not. We require CPE, and a lot of non-seminary-trained "ordained" do not.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:03 PM

Lizzie
especially true here in the states anymore

so very true