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Subject: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:52 AM Washington Post A Promise of War By Jackson Diehl Monday, February 9, 2009; Page A17 The past four Israeli elections have been won by a candidate who promised to end Israel's conflict with the Palestinians. Tomorrow, for the first time in decades, Israelis may choose a prime minister who is promising to wage war. "We must smash the Hamas power in Gaza," Likud party leader Binyamin ("Bibi") Netanyahu said at one rally last week. "There will be no escape from toppling the Hamas regime," he said at a security conference the next day. "I'm sorry to say we haven't gotten the job done," he said of Israel's recent Gaza offensive in a radio interview. "The next government will have no choice but to finish the job and uproot . . . the Iranian terror base." Perhaps Netanyahu won't win -- he's only narrowly ahead of Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who is promising to continue peace talks. Maybe he won't act on his words; campaign rhetoric is campaign rhetoric. But the Obama administration faces the very real prospect of having to manage the most volatile and contentious relationship with Israel since a decade ago, when Israel's prime minister was. . . . Bibi Netanyahu. It's not just the possibility that a Netanyahu-led government would seek to "topple" Hamas -- something that would require another, even bloodier Israeli invasion and leave its army stuck in the territory indefinitely. Netanyahu is also saying a top priority will be "harnessing the U.S. administration to stop the threat" of Iran's nuclear program -- something he strongly suggests would require military action. He advocates putting Israeli-Palestinian peace talks on hold indefinitely and says he will not stop the expansion of Jewish settlements. He has never endorsed the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state, and he says he will not support Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights -- the key to any peace deal with Syria. One possible coalition partner, now surging in the polls, is Avigdor Lieberman, a far-right leader who advocates harsh discrimination against Israel's Arab minority. In short, just at the moment that a new U.S. administration launches a policy aimed at addressing the multiple conflicts of the Middle East with intensive diplomacy, it may find itself with an Israeli partner that rejects negotiations with its neighbors and does its best to push the United States toward military confrontation with Iran and its proxies. .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:16 AM JPost.com Feb 9, 2009 12:20 | Updated Feb 9, 2009 16:08 PA foreign minister: 'Hamas Wants Instability in the Region' By ASSOCIATED PRESS WARSAW, Poland Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki accused Hamas on Monday of trying to influence the outcome of this week's Israeli election, pointing to the continued Palestinian rocket attacks on southern Israel. Riad Malki said "Hamas wants instability in the region" and suggested rockets have continued to be launched from the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip as "a way to interfere" in the Israeli vote. Israel carried out a three-week offensive in the Gaza Strip last month in an attempt to halt years of rocket fire on southern Israeli communities. Israel and Hamas announced an informal truce on January 18, but two rockets struck southern Israel on Sunday. There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the rocket attacks. Malki said the Palestinian Authority is "very much worried" that such attacks might "really push Israeli public opinion and the voters to vote for an anti-peace government." Polls suggest that after Tuesday's parliamentary vote, Israel's next government could be more right-wing than the current coalition. The front-runner, Binyamin Netanyahu, has suggested he will try to jump-start the Palestinian economy while expanding settlements and continuing IDF presence in the West Bank indefinitely. Palestinian Authority... Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas voiced his willingness to negotiate with Israeli's new leadership, but firmly stated he expects from "the new Israeli government a halt to new settlements." "If the new government doesn't do that, I don't know what will happen with the further stages of the peace process," Abbas, also in Warsaw, said through a translator. Abbas and Malki, who were in Poland for talks with government leaders during a weeklong trip to European capitals, both sought to stress that the Palestinian Authority is willing to negotiate with the new Israeli leadership. They also urged all sides not to squander the opening provided by the election of US President Barack Obama. Malki said Obama clearly has decided "to be fully engaged in the process," and noted the president's telephone call to Abbas shortly after Obama's election victory, as well as his decision to dispatch George Mitchell as the new special US envoy to for Middle East peace. "President Obama has already taken positive steps," Abbas said. "He assured me of his interest and the weight with which he treats the current crisis." ---------------------- If a high Palestinian official says and believes this, who am I to argue with him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Greg F. Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:21 AM Not news. Netanyahu has always been a lunatic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Stringsinger Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM Malki's opinion doesn't seem to be having much weight. Probably because he is not a true representative of the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, Hamas is. Their rocket attacks will not help the Palestinians in the long run but define their plight at present. They are suffering at the hands of a Netanyahu. Hamas has not achieved any lasting goals. Remember that the Palestinians in Gaza are not the same as those of the West Bank. There are different strategic interests, here. They are actually two different mind-sets based on tribal distinctions. People in the US and some in Europe don't understand these tribal distinctions and lump their goals together. This is a misreading of Mid-East politics. Stringsinger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: GUEST,JTS Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:44 PM >>Remember that the Palestinians in Gaza are not the same as those of the West Bank. There are different strategic interests, here. They are actually two different mind-sets based on tribal distinctions. People in the US and some in Europe don't understand these tribal distinctions and lump their goals together. This is a misreading of Mid-East politics.<< How do YOU know these things? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: pdq Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:58 PM The trouble-makers is Gaza are just plain Arabs. Giving them a special name and crediting them with a special cultural hertitage is one of the greatest PR accomplishments in history. (PR means the same as propaganda, just sounds better) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM Just plain people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: robomatic Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM Well, it's not just Hamas. It's the lack of support Israel has received by the United Nations and many European countries which has increased the insularity and level of response among Israelis and may well lead to a hard-line Israeli government. This will lead to more violence on both sides and bring us all farther from peace and may well lead to some nasty repercussions that are not directly related, such as Afghanistan/ Pakistan conflicts and the likelihood of Islamic extremists getting more power there (and closer to control of nukes). A good movie to watch would be the superb "Battle for Algiers" which I think is a model for Hamas and Hezbollah modus operandi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:12 PM Yeah, I read the Diehl op-ed in the Post this morning, as well... It's really no surprise that Isreal finds itself in such a defensive and reactionary position... One reaps what one sows... The US is reaping what George Bush sowed with this recession and Isreal is reaping what it has sowed in thinking of Palestinainas as inferior people not deserving of it's own state or much of anything else for that matter... Like I have pointed out before... Isreal lost it's war with Hamas and will loose the next one and the one after that because there is no military solution to this situation... None... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Peace Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:41 PM I disagree with that, Bobert. The Israelis do NOT perceive the Palestinians as inferior. Bibi maybe does. Now, get a few e-mails to Hamas and ask them to stop already with the fuckin' rocket attacks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:28 PM Oh??? Then why have the Palestinians been hearded like cattle into what amounts to be concentration camps... The West Bank has the highest density of any place in the Middle East... That is a "concentration camp", Brucie... You don't have to have the gas chambers to have a concentration camp... As for the rockets??? Yeah, that is purdy messed up thinking to anyone who is not there... People do very starnge things when they feel trapped... Any anthropologist or socialologist can attest to that... So what we have is a very screwed up situation... Very screwed up... Isreal will never make itself safer by doing what it did last month in Gaza... If our goal is for everyone to have a safe place to live and to have opportunities to raise a family and be part of a community then we need a majot rethinking in that area of the world... Everything that has been done over the last 8 years has been wrong and hasn't made anyone more safe or secure... In the words of the late Waylon Jennings, "We need a change..." And we do... A repeat on Isreal's part of the last month will hurt Isreal's changes for security... We need a change... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:46 PM "The West Bank has the highest density of any place in the Middle East..." Bobert, not only is the Gaza Strip not the most densely populated area in the Middle East, it is barely among the 10 most dense in the world. See below...read...and learn from Mudcat. bobad RE: BS: Israel Moves in. 02-Feb-09 - 07:03 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: pdq Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:06 PM It's speculation on my part, but I believe that Tzipi Livni ordered the recent counter-offensive againt Hamas militants because the Israeli public was tired of the constant attacks and was ready to elect somebody with the balls to fight back, namely Binyamin Netanyahu. Israeli troops left Gaza in 2005 and ever since, rockets, mortars and missiles have rained down on Israeli territory. About 8 thousand such devices. Tzipi Livni tried to look authoritative and show the people that the situation was under control in his strong hands, but he took action only because the election was coming and polls showed he would lose. The Israeli people just elected Netanyahu anyway. Pehaps that's what the pundits mean by "Hamas achieves its goal"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Stringsinger Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM The tribal distinctions become clear when one visits Mid-East countries. There are many journalists who have reported such things such as Dahr Jamail and Professor Juan Cole. You won't find this kind of objectivity in AIPAC or the bloodthirsty Netanyahu or the MSM in the US. This information is readily available by anyone who cares to do a little research. How do you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: robomatic Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:41 PM Actually Bobert's post following mine was an excellent example of a slanted, uninformed, predudicial approach to the problem, which while bitched at a high level of perceived injustice, proposes no valid solution and backs ALL parties into their respective corners and predicts that with no fairness and no new ideas, things will get worse, exactly as I had just stated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: pdq Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:50 PM Tzipi Livni is, of course, a female. The use of the wrong pronoun does not affect the opinions expressed in the post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:55 PM Sorry Bobert, I misread your previous post re the West Bank. It is not even close to being the densest populated area in the Mid East or almost anywhere. According to Encarta, "In 2008 the estimated population of the West Bank was 1,495,681. Population density was 255 persons per sq km (661 per sq mi)." The Gaza Strip with multiple thousands per sq km is as I noted not even the most dense in the Mid East. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Peace Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:29 PM Bobert, Israel intends to invade Gaza and wipe out Hamas. IMO, if the Israelis have a half a brain they will allow/escort Palestinians OUT of Gaza and leave the members of Hamas to face the IDF. Speaking the last few days via e-mail with a friend who lives in the Golan. HE wishes for peace and a settlement between the Palestinian people and the Israelis. He is a dreamer (and a damned good guy). I think you have a right to your opinions, but then so do I. I hope with all my heart that Hamas is decimated/killed/destroyed to the last troop. Those fuckers have caused so much strife it's unreal. You send some e-mails to Hamas and express that you'd like the rocket attacks to stop. That you'd like the bloody UN--which said jack shit about the Israelis being rocket-attacked for more than five fucking years, and then you and I will have something that resembles a common ground to start talking from. I'm afraid that now we could just piss at each other. Sorry buddy, but that's that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:32 PM Hey, ya'll... Ya' ever looked at satilite picture of the West Bank??? I don't give a flyin' fig if ya'll wanta play games about how packed it is.... It is packed with people.... When you think of it's size... Ahhhhh, no bigger than the Washington D.C. metropolitan area, it is one very packed and "concentrated" population center... Rememeber Skinner's Box from Psyc 201 when you concentrate large numbers of rats in a box??? That is exactly what we have with the Palestinians and all off you postin' from the comforts of yer less concentrated and less oppressed parts of the world wanta get on a "Lets-beat-up-on-Bobert" bandwagen call yer travel agents now.... Get yerselves a airplane ticket to, ahhhhhhh, geeze, Bobert, there aren't any real airlines that go into either Gaza or the Wesr bank... Nevermind... Fly into Isreal and then hope the border crossing is open and find a driver who is willing to take you Gaza or the West Bank... Once you have doen that please come back here to Mudcat and allucidate on just how screwed up my thinking is!!! Until then, keep reading yer pro-Isreali propagnada... Which, BTW, won't in a million years make Isreal safer... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:59 PM "Fly into Isreal and then hope the border crossing is open and find a driver who is willing to take you Gaza or the West Bank..." You first Bobert. Would you care to divulge where you got your "fact" on the population density? The Strip has an area of 360 square kilometers and a population of 1.4 million. People speak about the population being crammed in and George Galloway spoke of the Strip being "the most densely populated piece of earth on the planet" The population density in the Gaza Strip works out as 4166 per square kilometer. Cities like London, Tel Aviv, Singapore and Hong Kong all have much higher population densities than the Gaza Strip; and Mumbai is about six times higher. The Nation of Monaco has a population density of 16,754 per square kilometer. Karachi Pakistan has a population density of 10,727 per square kilometer. Jews were present in Gaza from antiquity until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza. After that the British prohibited Jews from living in the area, though some Jews returned and, in 1946, re-established kibbutz Kfar Darom in central Gaza which had been destroyed in the 1936-39 Arab revolt in Palestine. British rule of Palestine ended with the expiration of the British Mandate and the Israeli Declaration of Independence on May 14, 1948. According to the terms of the 1947 United Nations partition plan, the Gaza area was to become part of a new Arab state. However, the Arabs rejected the UN plan. When, following the dissolution of the British mandate of Palestine and 1947-1948 Civil War in Palestine, Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the Egyptian army invaded the area from the south, triggering the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The Gaza Strip as it is known today was the product of the subsequent 1949 Armistice Agreements between Egypt and Israel, often referred to as the Green Line. Egypt then occupied the Strip from 1949 (except for four months of Israeli occupation during the 1956 Suez Crisis) until 1967. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:39 PM Yo Bobert: So Israel intends to invade Gaza and wipe out Hamas? Please evaluate the following official Hamas statement: Speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, April 20, 2007 by Dr. Ahmad Bahar of Hamas, the acting head of the Palestinian Legislative Council: "This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation. Make us victorious over the infidels. Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one."Watch Video of this speech |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:54 PM The Mufti's Conversation with Hitler (November 28, 1941) Haj Amin al-Husseini, the most influential leader of the Arabs in Palestine, lived in Germany, during the Second World War He met Hitler. Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders on various occasions and attempted to coordinate Nazi and Arab policies in the Middle East. The following is a record of a conversation between the Fuhrer and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, in the Presence of Reich Foreign Minister and Minister Grobba in Berlin. The Grand Mufti began by thanking the Fuhrer for the great honor he had bestowed by receiving him. He wished to seize the opportunity to convey to the Fuhrer of the Greater German Reich, admired by the entire Arab world, his thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially the Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear espressos in his public speeches. The Arab countries were firmly convinced that Germany would win the war and that the Arab cause would then prosper: The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists. They were therefore prepared to cooperate with Germany with all their hearts and stood ready to participate in the war, not only negatively by the commission of acts of sabotage and the instigation of revolutions, but also positively by the formation of an Arab Legion. The Arabs could he more useful to Germany as allies than might he apparent at first glance, both for geographical reasons and because of the suffering inflicted upon them by the English and the Jews. Furthermore, they had had close relations with all Moslem nations, of which they could make use in behalf of the common cause. The Arab Legion would he quite easy to raise. An appeal by the Mufti to the Arab countries and the prisoners of Arab, Algerian,Tunisian, and Moroccan nationality in Germany would produce a great number of volunteers eager to fight. Of Germany's victory the Arab world was firmly convinced, not only because the Reich possessed a large army, brave soldiers, and military leaders of genius, but also because the Almighty could never award the victory to an unjust cause. In this struggle, the Arabs were striving for the independence and unity of Palestine, Syria and Iraq. They had the fullest confidence in the Fuhrer and looked to his hand for the balm on their wounds which had been inflicted upon them by the enemies of Germany. The Mufti then mentioned the letter he had received from Germany, which stated that Germany was holding no Arab territories and understood and recognized the aspirations to independence and freedom of the Arabs, just as she supported the elimination of the Jewish national home. A public declaration in this sense would be very useful for its propagandistic effect on the Arab peoples at this moment. It would rouse the Arabs from their momentary lethargy and give them new courage. It would also ease the Mufti's work of secretly organizing the Arabs against the moment when they could strike. At the same time, he could give the assurance that the Arabs would in strict discipline patiently wait for the right moment and only strike upon an order from Berlin. With regard to the events in Iraq, the Mufti observed that the Arabs in that country certainly had by no means been incited by Germany to attack England, but solely had acted in reaction to a direct English assault upon their honor. The Turks, he believed, would welcome the establishment of' an Arab government in the neighboring territories because they would prefer weaker Arab to strong European governments in the neighboring countries, and, being themselves a nation of 7 million, they had moreover nothing to fear from the 1.700,000 Arabs inhabiting Syria. Transjordan, Iraq. and Palestine. France likewise would have no objections to the unification plan because she had conceded independence to Syria as early as 1936 and had given her approval to the unification of Iraq and Syria under King Faisal as early as 1933. The Fuhrer replied that Germany's fundamental attitude on these questions, as the Mufti himself had already stated. was clear. Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine. which was nothing other than a center, in the form of a state, for the exercise of destructive influence by Jewish interests. Germany was also aware that the assertion that the Jews were carrying out the function of economic pioneers in Palestine was a lie. The work there was done only by the Arabs, not by the Jews. Germany was resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:07 AM Does this sound like Genocide? "My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah [and] we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:39 AM The International Jew is a four volume set of booklets or pamphlets originally published and distributed in the early 1920s by Henry Ford, an American industrialist, automobile developer and manufacturer. The first volume of the series, namely, The International Jew, The World's Foremost Problem is a compilation consisting of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the main and most important source. At the Nurmberg Trial Baldur von Schirach mentioned The International Jew made a deep impression on him and his friends in their youth and influenced them in becoming anti-semitic. He said: "... we saw in Henry Ford the representative of success, also the exponent of a progressive social policy. In the poverty-stricken and wretched Germany of the time, youth looked toward America, and apart from the great benefactor, Herbert Hoover, it was Henry Ford who to us represented America." The Protocols of the Elders of Zion has been proven by respected international scholars, both Jewish and non-Jewish, to be a forgery, a fraud and a hoax, as well as a clear case of plagiarism. The original source has been clearly identified as an 1864 book by Maurice Joly entitled The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, which was written as a satirical attack against the ambitions and methods of French Emperor Napoleon III. In the book, Machiavelli represented Napoleon III, and described a series of steps that he intended to take to become ruler of the world. The Joly book was in turn based on material borrowed from a popular novel of the time by Eugène Sue entitled The Mysteries of the People, in which those plotting to rule the world were the Jesuits instead of Napoleon III. Neither the Joly book nor the Sue book mentioned either Jews or Masons. Based on evidence repeatedly corroborated by British, German, Ukranian, Polish and Russian sources over a 75 year period, The Protocols, far from being a "discovered" document as it was claimed to be, was in fact deliberately fabricated sometime between 1895 and 1902 by Russian journalist Matvei Golovinski. There are unconfirmed indications that the forgery was created at the direction of Pyotr Rachkovsky, Head of the Paris branch of the Russian Secret Service. The source material for the forgery was a synthesis between Joly's book and a chapter from a work of fiction entitled Biarritz, which was written in 1868 by antisemitic German novelist Hermann Goedsche and translated into Russian in 1872.[11] In the forgery, Golovinski took Joly's novel and changed the plotters from Napoleon III (represented by Machiavelli) to the Jews, in the same way that Joly had changed the plotters from the Jesuits to Napoleon III when he created his version of the story. The current belief is that the forgery was initiated and authorized by factions of the Russian aristocracy opposed to the political and social reforms initiated by the previous Tsar (Alexander II). The fabricated document was intended to convince the antisemitic Tsar Nicholas II not to allow any additional reforms, since all reforms would be playing into the hands of this just-discovered "secret Jewish plot". Once the Russian Revolution began in 1905 however, the use of the forgery changed. The same group, now part of the White movement, widely disseminated the document during their 18 year fight against the Bolsheviks in an attempt to link the Red Army, which had a few Jews in its leadership, to the fictitious Jewish conspiracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Feb 09 - 05:57 AM Bobert, Care to comment? ( and BTW, West Bank IS NOT GAZA) "The area of the West Bank and Gaza is nine times as large as Singapore's, yet the combined population of Palestinians in both regions is smaller than that of Singapore. This Southeast Asian country enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world. We have faith that the Palestinians are capable of achieving similar success, and we will continue to work tirelessly with our partners across the negotiating table to establish an autonomous Palestinian state where the people will institute a modern economy based on science, technology and the benefits of peace. " Israeli Viewpoint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: wyrdolafr Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM Looking a figures for population density for the Gaza Strip, my little satellite town east of Manchester had a considerably higher population density in 2001 than the Gaza Strip had of 2007. The next population count for my town is going to even higher due to the increasing immigration numbers. I'm pissing myself at the idea of 'concentration camps' in this context! Although, to be fair, perhaps some North Americans have a skewed idea about 'crowding'. Doesn't England have something a 1/6th of the U.S's population but in a 1/75th of it's landmass? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:04 AM "Oh??? Then why have the Palestinians been hearded like cattle into what amounts to be concentration camps... The West Bank has the highest density of any place in the Middle East... That is a "concentration camp", Brucie... " Bobert "Consider the source... Propaganda is just that... After a while folks like T actually beleieve what Hitler referred to as the "Big Lie"..." Bobert "highest density of any place in the Middle East" is false- you have been informed of this, and keep repeating it. This is willful LYING, and when you do so you are a liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:14 AM Oh, big red letters... How scarey... I never said that Gaza and the West Bank were the same... I have pointed out that the Palestinians are living in highly concentrated areas... I have poined out that the Palestinians do not have a real nation... And no soverignty... I have said that the conflict between Isreal and the Palestinians has not been addressed under Bush... Nor worked on, for that matter... The recent situation in Gaza is evidence... I have also challenged those folks here who only see Isreal's side, but not the Plaestianin's side, to go to Gaza and the West Bank... Face it, the "news" we get is 100% on the side of Isreal... And even that news is not too flattering to Isreal... We have seen what happens when the US turns its back on this region... The highlights of that inaction on the USs part has been on display in Lebenon and Gaza... And guess what??? Isreal is less safe as a result of's it over-reatcions... Not more safe... In the words of Dr. Phil, "How is that workin' for ya'???"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:20 AM "I have pointed out that the Palestinians are living in highly concentrated areas" Bobert And it has been pointed out that Tel Aviv has a GREATER population density than Gaza, and those rockets you seem to think are ok are getting closer to Tel Aviv every time. In fact, Israel IS safer, as can be witnessed by the facts that Hezboallah did NOT open a northern front, because they know what Israel would do to them in Lebanon, and are not willing to pay that cost. It is a pity that Hamas IS willing to pay that cost, as long as it is in the form of suffering by the Gazan people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM "I have pointed out that the Palestinians are living in highly concentrated areas" - Bobert pleads But Bobert you little fibber you didn't say that did you you stridently claimed in full left-wing froth: "The West Bank has the highest density of any place in the Middle East... That is a "concentration camp", Brucie... " - Bobert It has been pointed out repeatedly with links to source and verification that neither Gaza or the West Bank has anywhere near the highest density of population in the Middle-East, I believe that even Kuwait beats either. Now then Bobert while you are in the business of advising people on travel for purposes of education. Get a few of the non-Hamas brain-washed citizens of Gaza and take them to Kuwait and show them round - Then inform them if their "elected" government had so chosen then they too could have had exactly what was available to the people of Kuwait. Firing rockets and mortars into Israel is going to get the Palestinians absolutely nothing. Attacking Israel and killing Israeli citizens is going to get the Palestinians absolutely nothing. I would have thought that after 60 years even the thickest of short planks amongst those said "Palestinians" would have realised those two simple truths. Time to try something completely different?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:19 PM "How scarey..." Must be 'cause you don't want to discuss it Bobert. "not the Palestinian's side" the big red letters is the Palestinian side. The side you can't see. You claim that someone who has not been there does not know what he is talking about. Have you been there? Do what you tell others to do and get back to us when you do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM This one is for all of you who like to cite Amnesty International--- Amnesty International: Hamas carrying out 'deadly campaign' against opponents in Gaza By Haaretz Service Amnesty International group on Tuesday accused Hamas of carrying out a "deadly campaign" against its Palestinian opponents and critics in the Gaza Strip, particularly those they accuse of "collaborating" with Israel. "Hamas forces in the Gaza Strip have carried out a deadly campaign of abductions, killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of 'collaborating' with Israel, as well as opponents and critics," the human rights group wrote in its latest report, released on Tuesday. You can read the entire article at: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1063097.html Just a reminder, Haaretz is the opposition left leaning newspaper in Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: pdq Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM Let's see... Cairo, Egypt is only a bit larger than Gaza. Cairo is 214.7 square miles, Gaza 140 sq. mi. Gaza has a population of 1.4 million, Cairo has over 20 million That suggests that Gaza in not the most densely populated area in the whole Middle East |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM BBC are reporting the same story that John of the Sunset Coast above has mentioned - Link here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7881182.stm Now then I wonder if a certain Italian reporter was go back to a certain Gaza hospital and ask to talk to the doctors and staff who previously told the reporter that Palestinian casualties were nowhere near the numbers claimed by Hamas and that of the 600 odd they could vouch for the numbers were made up of predominantly youths aged between 17 and 23 - What's the betting that they would now be unavailable for comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM Hamas's most cherished goal is, and has for years been, to scandalize Bearded Bruce and cause him to frequently launch threads which complain bitterly about their activities. They have achieved this goal. They have achieved it brilliantly. I can't see why they would bother, frankly...but I suppose it gives them some form of satisfaction. Iran, of course, has similar intentions, but will go even further. They intend to destroy Bearded Bruce and are even now constructing weapons of mass destruction with that purpose in mind. They will go to any lengths in this effort and should not be underestimated. Same goes for Hezbollah, who have been writing "Bearded Bruce sodomizes camels" on walls in Lebanon. As for Al Queda, they have sworn to embarrass Bearded Bruce by any means possible and have published obscene revisions of his sonnets in Arabic language. Then there's my dog, who recently became a Muslim convert. He has it in for Bearded Bruce too for some reason. He's dreaming of the day when he can bite him on the ankle. Yes, all these minions of ultimate evil (my dog included...he is deeply evil) are united in a common cause of murderous and genocidal intent. They hate Bearded Bruce, they thirst for his blood, they seek his utter destruction, and they do it not for any kind of legitimate political reason and not because of any harm that was ever done to them or their people, but merely because they are insane, horrible, vicious, and evil. They MUST therefore all be destroyed...preferably by atomic fire. Israel and the USA certainly have the means to do that without even straining themselves, and we can only hope they do it soon. I can hardly wait, and I bet you can hardly wait either. After it's done, well....we'll have to find a new enemy. Maybe China? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:04 PM "They are united in a common cause of murderous and genocidal intent". I couldn't have said it better myself LH: The Hamas spokesman, Dr. Ismail Radwan, Palestinian Authority TV, March 30, 2007 - The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: "Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!" We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle. It will not be liberated through negotiations, but through the rifle, since this occupation knows no language but the language of force. O Allah, strengthen Islam and Muslims, and bring victory to your Jihad-fighting worshipers, in Palestine and everywhere. Allah take the oppressor Jews and Americans and their supporters! PA TV, November 17, 2004 Mother: "We do not encourage our sons to die. We encourage them to Shahada for the homeland, for Allah. We don't say to the mothers of the shahids, 'We have come to comfort you,' but 'We have come to bless you on the wedding of your son, on the Shahada of your son. Congratulations to you on the Shahada...' For us, the mourning is joyous. We give out drinks, we give out sweets. Praise to God - the mourning is a joyous occasion." PATV, program of Sheik Imad Hamato Nov. 3, 2006 We shouldn't forget that Allah, praise him, in blessing the blood of the Martyr, He forgives him from the first gush of blood. And he sees his place in Paradise. He is shielded from the Great Shock and marries 72 Dark-Eyed Maidens (virgins). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Stringsinger Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:27 PM There are of course many Islamic fundamentalists as well as Christian, Hindu, and even Buddhist sects that preach violence. Hamas has not achieved its goals. The Palestinian people are still impoverished and being set upon by Israel in Gaza and threatened by the West Bank settlements. One of the basic troubles of mankind today is religion. This Mid-East crisis is a religious war. It's something no one likes to talk about. "Don't look behind the curtain!" Stringsinger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM Frank you obviously think that Hamas are committed to the improvement of the lot of Palestinians. Can you explain why they have been so completely piss-poor and utterly useless at actually achieving anything remotely in that area of endeavour. Oh and the previous posts by Sawzaw that all the Hamas, Fatah, Islami Jihdi, Hezbollah, "Anybody-who-kills-Jews" apologists have been quietly ignoring and refusing to comment on - They have nothing to do with Christian Sects, Hindu Sects or Buddhist Sects. And the fact that there are such sects who preach violence is irrelevant, their existence does not give any stamp of approval for what Hamas, et al preach and stand for - They are all wrong. The only problem is that investigation will show that number 1 source of terrorist violence in the world today is Islamic fundamentalism. I hear no calls from Christians, Hindus or Buddhists for world domination and the wiping out of any other race or creed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:44 PM I see the Isreali apologist lined up like brownshirts here... Pick every little word and attack, attack, attack... Normal... That is why Hamas is winning... You folks only have one story... Yours... No one elses... You don't want peace... You wnat to destroy every non Isreasli in the Middle East... Your responses here are "Exhibit A" with bif letters and red letters and all that other stuff that in interprested in cyberworld as trying to shout down the opposition... This thread is a microcosm of the middle east... None of you want peace... You are all bullies and warmongers... (Normal, Bobert...) B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 10 Feb 09 - 10:34 PM The big red letters are supposed to be visible through the cataracts or whatever keeps you from recognizing facts. That makes you look like a greenshirt for Hamas. Just the kind of killers you like to cozy up to and get all teary eyed over. Here is what Human rights watch has to say about Hamas. Let me know if you can read it OK or if it needs to be enlarged: Palestinian Abuses in Gaza and the West Bank July 29, 2008 In this 113-page report Human Rights Watch documents a pattern of serious abuses by Hamas against Fatah in Gaza, and by Fatah against Hamas in the West Bank, since June 2007, when Hamas took control in Gaza. The latest spike in the internal Palestinian conflict comes after a year of politically motivated arrests, torture and ill-treatment in detention by both sides. Excerpt: Hamas's takeover of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 was violent and swift. In eight days Hamas forces seized control of all security facilities and main government offices throughout the territory. One hundred and sixty-one Palestinians died in the fighting, including 41 civilians, and at least 700 were wounded, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights.[104] Both Fatah and Hamas forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law, including summary executions and torture. Human Rights Watch is unaware of any investigations or prosecutions in Gaza against Hamas members who committed crimes. When the fighting ended, Hamas faced the monumental task of governing Gaza-a task for which it was ill-prepared, despite one year in the government. Traditionally focused on social programs and fighting the Israeli occupation, Hamas had to govern 1.4 million people after devastating internal clashes, ongoing military pressure from Israel and intensified economic pressure from Israel, the US, the EU and other donors. The first matter of business was to consolidate control, and Hamas went about it with scant regard for the law. Hamas's armed wing, the 'Izz-al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, commanded by Ahmad Jabari, and its internal police, the Executive Force, commanded by Jamal al-Jarrah (aka Abu Obaidah), arrested hundreds of Fatah leaders, activists and supporters, especially those suspected of using or possessing weapons, and held many of them in unauthorized detention facilities. Torture and beatings were common, and one man is known to have died in custody during this time.[105] Hamas forces blocked demonstrations or public meetings by Fatah, and used violence to break up gatherings that did take place. They closed media outlets run by or sympathetic to Fatah.[106] The next step was to reorganize the security forces. After the Hamas takeover, President Abbas ordered all members of the official security forces in Gaza to stop reporting for work if they wanted to get paid. Eager to receive their salaries, many security force members left their respective forces. In September, Hamas created the Internal Security Force (ISF) (al-Amnu al-Dakhily), modeled on the Fatah-dominated Preventive Security, to combat politically motivated crimes, and staffed it largely with members of the Qassam Brigades. In October, it integrated the Executive Force into the civil police, which deals mostly with common crime. Hamas also assumed full control in Gaza of the National Security Force, a PA-wide force, responsible for security along Gaza's borders, which Hamas refers to as its army. Some officials who defied Abbas's order not to work were reappointed, including in some cases to command positions. Most prominently, former Fatah security chief Tawfiq Jabber was named commander of the 12,000-member civil police. He reported to Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, who also held the interior portfolio until April 28, 2008, when the influential Hamas official Said Siyam assumed that post. Even during Haniya's tenure as interior minister, Siyam was widely considered the man in charge of the security forces. Siyam has claimed that the new security forces are depoliticized, and that the al-Qassam Brigades plays no role in Gaza's internal security. "The Qassam are the military arm of Hamas for resistance against the occupation," he said. "They have no internal role. Any member interfering in internal security will be treated as a violator of the law." Journalists and human rights activists in Gaza, however, dispute that claim, saying that Hamas has appointed security force members and commanders whose primary loyalty is to the movement. Over the past year, Hamas authorities have maintained pressure on the media, closing several radio stations and banning pro-Fatah newspapers. On August 25, 2007, Executive Force members attacked journalists covering a Fatah demonstration. On September 7, 2007, the Executive Force beat Fatah supporters as they tried to hold a public prayer meeting, again assaulting at least seven journalists and detaining five others covering the event. On December 14, 2007, members of the ISF arrested Omar al-Ghul from al-Hayat al-Jadida, a newspaper considered pro-Fatah. On January 15, 2008, they detained the paper's Gaza bureau chief, Munir Abu Rizq, for about 20 days. That same month, authorities blocked the Gaza distribution of three newspapers published in the West Bank: Al-Quds, Al-Ayyam, and Al-Hayat. A ban on the pro-Fatah Palestinian TV remained in effect. Hamas also imposed restrictions on freedom of assembly, including public prayers by Fatah supporters. On August 13, 2007, the Executive Force issued an order that banned any demonstration without permission from the Executive Force. In the second half of 2007, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights documented "several cases in which the Executive Force dispersed peaceful assemblies by force." In its letter to Human Rights Watch, the Hamas government said that it fully respected the right to free assembly, as guaranteed in the Palestinian Basic Law and the Law on Public Assemblies, the latter of which states that the organizer of any meeting or demonstration must request permission from the authorities 48 hours in advance. But even when permission for demonstrations was granted, the police and other Hamas forces sometimes used excessive force to disperse crowds. In the most deadly incident, documented below, on November 12, 2007, security forces fired into a large pro-Fatah demonstration, killing seven and wounding 90 (see case below). Thirty-eight policemen were eventually held responsible for those deaths, but it remains unclear whether the punishments they received-ranging from dismissal to imprisonment-were commensurate with the crimes. Read More |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Peace Date: 11 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM Bullshit, Bobert. Israel would love to live in peace. Their neighbours ensure that that is not possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: CarolC Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:08 AM http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304731246&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter Encountering Peace: Spins and lies: Schalit, Hamas and Olmert Feb. 9, 2009 Gershon Baskin , THE JERUSALEM POST 'Several weeks ago I wrote that the war in Gaza "may have really been a 'war of no choice.'" Following the recent leaks from the talks about the "imminent" release of Gilad Schalit, I have decided to expose what I already knew before the war began. Two weeks before Israel launched its attack on Gaza in response to a breakdown of the tahadiyeh (the cease-fire) with three weeks of barrages of Kassam rockets and mortar shells against its civilian population, I had met with a senior Hamas personality in a European capital. This person is connected and in contact with the Hamas leadership in Gaza and in Damascus. Over the past 950 days since the abduction of Schalit, he has transmitted messages for me back and forth to the Hamas leadership in Damascus, including a letter from Noam Schalit to Khaled Mashaal on September 8, 2006 that led to the release of the first sign of life from Gilad, which was received by the Egyptians on September 9, 2006. We spent several hours talking about the conditions to renew the tahadiyeh. Since the abduction of Schalit on June 25, 2006, my involvement behind the scenes has been in holding unofficial talks with various Hamas leaders in Gaza, Damascus and elsewhere, all seeking to advance the negotiations to bring Gilad home. For two and half years I have been trying to bring about a direct secret back-channel bypassing third party mediators in order to speed up the process. INITIALLY WHEN Hamas proposed such a channel, about one month after the abduction, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rejected it with a knee-jerk response that "we don't negotiate with terrorists." About a year later, I received permission from the government to see if it was possible to open up the direct secret back channel. Until two weeks before the Gaza war, Hamas refused. My talks with the Hamas leader in Europe focused on two main issues: convening a secret direct back channel and linking the prisoner exchange for Schalit's release to the renewal of the cease-fire and the ending of the economic siege on Gaza. For about two years Hamas has rejected the linking of the prisoner exchange with the cease-fire and the end of the siege. Since, however, this was the initial position of Hamas immediately following the abduction of Schalit, as was communicated to me some three weeks after the abduction - a call for a cease-fire, opening the borders and the prisoner exchange - I appealed to the Hamas leader to go back to the original demands, but to include an agreement to bypass the Egyptian mediators through a direct secret back channel. Our talks led to his agreement to get the approval of the Hamas leadership for this proposal. We concluded our talks with a note handwritten by him on the new proposed framework. We agreed that I would approach the Israeli leadership, and he would get the approval of the Hamas leadership. We further agreed that both of us would be directly involved in the talks along with others who would be appointed by the leaders on both sides. I returned to Israel and 10 days before the war broke out I wrote to Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni that Hamas was willing to open a direct secret back channel for a package deal that would include the renewal of the cease-fire, the ending of the economic siege and the prisoner exchange for the release of Schalit. I further indicated that Hamas would be willing to implement the agreement on Rafah which included the stationing of Palestinian Authority personnel loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas in Rafah and a return of the European monitors. I communicated the same message to Noam Schalit and asked him to make sure that Ofer Dekel, who is charged with the Schalit file by the government, received the Hamas "offer." I waited for a response from one of the people who received my letter. Nothing. No response. When the war broke out I understood that the decision to go to war had already been taken and that the government preferred to teach Hamas a lesson rather than negotiate a new cease-fire and the release of Schalit... ...The war was supported by 94 percent of Israelis because they really believed it was a "war of no choice." Lies, lies and lies. There was a choice. That choice was made - our leaders preferred war regardless of the cost. We don't negotiate with terrorists. We won't talk with Hamas. They don't recognize our right to exist, and we don't recognize that they were elected in democratic elections. Instead we hit them first and then we talk. We planned the war rather than planning how to avoid the war. That is the doctrine of the government. Now we can talk with Hamas? Isn't that what the government is doing today? Perhaps the talks are not direct, but we are negotiating with Hamas. The agreement that will be reached will be exactly what I proposed to Olmert, Barak and Livni 10 days before the war began. ' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM Well, Brucie, Isreal ain't gonna kill it's way to peace... They are going to have to start talking with folks and quit ordering and yelling at people... And the US is going to have to puyt it's money where it's mouth is... If it weren't an elected "Hamas" it would be another organization with similar views... That's what democracy looks like... Hamas was elected by people who are living in Gaza... They better understand their plight than anyone here in this little folk website... They elcted Hamas... The US and Isreal didn't like that so they cut of the aid... That was narrow minded... The election of Hamas should have been viewed as an opportunity but Blunderhead Bush saw it as yet another opportunity to divide people and take another lap in the Yer-Either-With-US-or-Yer-Against-US-mobile... That is the same thinking that got US into Iraqmire... Same exact mentality... Until the US and Isreal come to the realization that they are going to have to give a little to get a little Hamas will win the battle of public opinion over and over... The world has had enough of "my way or the highway"... The election of Barack Obama is "Exhibit A"... Senator George Mitchell had it right back in 2001 and evenyually Isreal will see that that framework for peace is the only way that Isreal will ever be secure... But one thing is for sure, bluster has run it's course as an effective foriegn policy tool... Peace, Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Teribus Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM "Senator George Mitchell had it right back in 2001 and evenyually Isreal will see that that framework for peace is the only way that Isreal will ever be secure..." - Bobert Eventually Israel will see!!! That's a bit bloody rich Bobert - Here's the track record so far: They - ISRAEL - saw it and accepted it in 1947 when it was proposed by the UN. They - ISRAEL - saw it and accepted it in the 1949 Armistace agreement They - ISRAEL - saw it and accepted it in Oslo, Norway on 20 August 1993. They - ISRAEL - saw it and accepted it again at a public ceremony in Washington D.C. on 13 September 1993 They - ISRAEL - saw it and accepted it again in Summit talks held at Camp David between 11th and 25th July 2000. They - ISRAEL - saw it once again at the summit in October 2000 held in Sharm al- Sheikh, Egypt. Your Exhibit A President's envoy - George Mitchell - is only voicing yet again what has been said for the last bloody 60 years!!!! Now pray tell Bobert - When the F**K are the Arabs going to eventually see it and accept it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:34 AM "The US and Isreal didn't like that so they cut of the aid... That was narrow minded..." So, you would think that it is narrow minded if the KKK were to win the election in some small town, and someone tried to cut off Federal and state funds to them? Even when they instituted weekly crossburnings and the occasional lynching? If not, your comment shows more than a little bit of bigotry. I have posted the Hamas charter- yet you seem to think that it is Israel that stands in the way of peace. I fail to see how you arrive at that, unless you have chosen to ignore facts, history, and the stated goals of BOTH sides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM PART III - STRATEGIES AND METHODS The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf Article Eleven The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari'a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators. http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences Article Thirteen [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper. Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow. (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:40 AM "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims." Hamas Charter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: bankley Date: 11 Feb 09 - 10:50 AM I'm curious, maybe somebody well-versed in stats can help.. How many Palestinian casualties have there been in the West Bank (IDF related) in the past year ? I haven't heard of any rockets fired at Israel from there... thanks... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:21 PM Bobert: is Hamas gonna kill it's way to peace...? Nevermind... Fly into Isreal and then hope the border crossing is open and find a driver who is willing to take you Gaza or the West Bank... Once you have doen that please come back here to Mudcat and allucidate on just how screwed up my thinking is!!! Until then, keep reading yer Hamas propagnada that says: kill them to the last one and don't leave even one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:55 PM Bankly: Try this link |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Teribus Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM Note that Bobert and Stringsinger having been asked direct questions have bowed out of this thread. The questions having been at odds with their own political creeds could not be answered by them honestly or factually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: C. Ham Date: 12 Feb 09 - 07:01 PM I'm curious, maybe somebody well-versed in stats can help.. How many Palestinian casualties have there been in the West Bank (IDF related) in the past year ? I haven't heard of any rockets fired at Israel from there... You haven't heard of any because there haven't been any. While there have been isolated incidents of violence between Israeli settlers and Palestinians in the West Bank, the ongoing dialogue between Israel and the Palestinian Authority has resulted in much improved relations between Israel and and the West Bank Palestinians. Even during the war with Hamas in Gaza last month, the West Bank remained relatively quiet. Progress toward peace has been made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 12 Feb 09 - 07:52 PM Sorry, T... Follow me around fir a week and you'd understand why it is that I can't respond promptly... Unlike you, Sawz and bb, I have a real job... And I have meetings... And volunteer work... And a concert series that I coordinate... On a good day I get a total of an hour a day for the computer... Some days I get like 30 minutes... It's called the real world where people have lives beyond 24/7 Mudcat... Now as for the KKK... Well, bb, how about telling my what your definition of democracy is... Then after you have done that tell me who it is who should judge others democracies as to whether or not they are good democracies... Then tell us what makes that entity the see'er of good v. bad democracies... Does dropping an atom bomb over two Japanese cities make the US the see'er of good v. evil democracies??? Now as fir you, Sawz... When were you last in Gaza??? I suggested to you that you go to Gaza and all I got was a childish response... Hardly worth the bandwidth responding to kindergartenish responses... Now what does T want??? Lemme go look... Oh yeah... T showing his real lack of understanding what the Mitchell Proposal was... It was, T, purdy much a carbon copy of the Sauid Proposal but rereading yer above post you must not have known that... Either that or you aren't aware that Saudi Arabia is, ahhhhhhh, an Arab state... Think that covers all the questions from the Mudburg "axis of evil"...lol... Later, B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Peace Date: 13 Feb 09 - 01:32 AM "Well, Brucie, Isreal ain't gonna kill it's way to peace..." No. Neither is Hamas or Hezbollah, or, or, or. But as long as they try, Israel will respond which is what they did in this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: bankley Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:13 AM 'progress towards peace had been made' sounds warm and fuzzy.. hope so.... but I'll keep digging.... and I wouldn't have asked Elizabeth Custer what really happened at the Little Big Horn.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:38 AM "and I wouldn't have asked Elizabeth Custer what really happened at the Little Big Horn.. " Implying that Hamas should not be asked about what happened in Gaza?? It is best to get ALL sides versions, and try to determine which ones are supported by the facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:44 AM Absolutely correct, Brucie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:59 AM Sometimes I am, Bobertie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: bankley Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:32 AM I want to know what's been happening in the West Bank while folks are focused on Gaza... IDF-related casualties is a start |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: C. Ham Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:11 AM I want to know what's been happening in the West Bank while folks are focused on Gaza... IDF-related casualties is a start The latest United Nations-sourced figures I could find covers the years 2005-2008 (through Oct. 2008). In all of those years, there were many more Palestinians killed in Gaza (controlled by Hamas) than in the West Bank (controlled by the Palestinian Authority) despite the fact that the population of Gaza is almost 6 times smaller than the West Bank. In the first 10 months of 2008 there were more than 8 times as many people killed in Gaza (389) and the West Bank (47) That should tell you where the fight against terrorism has shifted and which population is being better served by its representatives. You can see all the 2005-2008 stats at this link as an Excel spreadsheet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: bankley Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:01 PM thanks for the info. C.H., still digging around and it ain't so pretty.... I hope it gets worked out but I'm not holding my breath.. I'd like to check it out for myself someday from both sides of the 'Wall'..... then I might have something meaningful to say about it.... until then it's heads up and 'step away from the guitar, sir' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM Hamas VS Fatah |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:37 PM Behead Those Who Insult Islam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:36 PM "The Israel Defense Forces said Tuesday that Hamas has commandeered a large cache of unexploded weapons fired by Israel into the Gaza Strip during its offensive last month. The cache had disappeared while under guard by Hamas officials. United Nations experts had planned to dispose safely of the stockpile, which includes aircraft bombs and white phosphorous shells. UN officials discovered earlier this week that most of the contents of a Gaza warehouse being guarded by Hamas were missing. Israel Defense Force spokesman Peter Lerner said the cache had been "commandeered by Hamas." "We were told of the disappearance of the bombs, our understanding is that Hamas took them," he said. UN officials said that they were urgently seeking out the location of the weapons and calling for their return. They said some of the unexploded devices were extremely volatile and could easily be set off by accident."...... The whole story at below: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064943.html Gee, I wonder what Hamas might want with this ordnance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Bobert Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:46 PM To defend itself??? It's just a big "rock, sizzors, paper" game and ya' never know... In my martial arts training I learned that you only use the minimum force to defend yourself... Next to throwing rocks, hey, these weapons might be that minimum force... I think it is somewhat narrow-minded for folks who are not living in Gaza to apply thinking and values that are appropriate to that situation... There is no one here who has a clue what it must be like to be a Palestian in that part of the wworld... I mean, it is rediculous for folks who sit in the comfort and safety of their nice little homes in the US ot the UK and pass judgements on the motives of the Palestinians... This has been going on for generations there... Shoot, let the electricity go out on the average American's home for a few days or a few hours and folks go nuts... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:58 PM "I mean, it is rediculous for folks who sit in the comfort and safety of their nice little homes in the US ot the UK and pass judgements on the motives of the Palestinians..." We're not passing judgement...we're believing what they say and write. And we see how their actions accord with those things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:36 PM It is ridiculous for folks who sit in the comfort and safety of their nice little homes in the US or the UK and pass judgments on the motives of the Israelis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: CarolC Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:06 AM Hamas' goals... http://www.counterpunch.org/loewenstein06122006.html II. Hamas accepts a two-state solution. When asked by Newsweek-Washington Post correspondent Lally Weymouth on 26 February 2006 what agreements Hamas was prepared to honor, the new Hamas Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh answered, "the ones that will guarantee the establishment of a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as its capital with 1967 borders." Weymouth went on, "Will you recognize Israel?" to which Haniyeh responded, "If Israel declares that it will give the Palestinian people a state and give them back all their rights then we are ready to recognize them." (5) This view encapsulates the Hamas demand for reciprocity. In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer four days after the PLC elections, the new Hamas Foreign Minister, Mahmoud Zahar (considered the party's hard-liner) remarked, "We can accept to establish our independent state on the area occupied [in] 1967." Like Haniyeh and other Hamas members, Zahar insists that once such a state is established a long-term truce "lasting as long as 10, 20 or 100 years" will ensue ending the state of armed conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. (6) Hamas government spokesman Ghazi Hamad commented to reporters on 10 May 2006, "Yes, we accept an independent state in the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East War. This attitude is not new and it is declared in the government's platform." (7) In an effort to clarify the Hamas position on Abbas' call for a referendum, Hamas parliamentary speaker Aziz Duweik explained that it had nothing to do with a lack of support for the two-state settlement. "Everybody in Hamas says ëYes' to the two-state solution," he said. "The problem comes from the fact that the Israelis so far [have not said they] accept the 1967 bordersÖbetween the two states."(8) Other leaders are just as explicit. "Hamas is clear in terms of the historical solution and an interim solution. We are ready for both: the borders of 1967, a state, elections, and agreement after 10-15 years of building trust," commented Usama Hamdan, the Hamas Chief Representative in Lebanon. (9) Notable here is that his remarks were made in 2003 well before the Hamas victory of January 2006. Indeed, it should be pointed out that most of the on-the-record comments to this effect were made prior to these elections. Additional Hamas spokespersons who have made explicit reference to acceptance of an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 lands include Sheikh Ahmad Haj Ali, a Muslim Brotherhood leader and Hamas legislative candidate currently imprisoned in Israel (interviewed in July 2005); Muhammad Ghazal, Hamas spokesperson also currently in an Israeli jail (Sept. 2005); Hasan Yousef, West Bank political leader (August 2005); and the Hamas Electoral Manifesto Article 5:1 which calls for "adherence to the goal of defeating the [1967] occupation and establishing an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital." (10) In 1989, Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmad Yassin (assassinated by Israel in March 2004) stated, "I do not want to destroy IsraelÖ. We want to negotiate with Israel so the Palestinian people inside and outside Palestine can live in Palestine. Then the problem will cease to exist." (11) The hard-line Hamas leader, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, assassinated by Israel in April 2004 commented in 2002 that, "[T]he Intifada is about forcing Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 borders." This "doesn't mean the Arab-Israeli conflict will be over," but rather that the armed resistance to Israel would end." (12) In a 2004 report published by the highly regarded International Crisis Group, "During the 1987-1993 uprising, Hamas leaders proposed various formulas for Israeli withdrawal to the June 4th 1967 borders, to be reciprocated with a decades'-long truce (hudna)." That same report notes that, "In a March 1988 meeting with Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, and then with Defense Minister Rabin in June 1989, Hamas leader (now FM) Mahmud Zahar explicitly proposed an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 boundaries, to be followed by a negotiated permanent settlement." The offer was refused. (13) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: GUEST,Peace Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:15 AM "Behead Those Who Insult Islam" OK. May we start with their radical religious leaders? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM CarolC, Are you calling the Palestyinians liars??? Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that "Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing." Ref IHT 1 April 08 Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08 "We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity" stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 - ref -- BBC 2 January 09 In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam. "I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them" He maintained that Rome would become, ""an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe. http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: C. Ham Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM The United Nations complains that Hamas has stolen seven tons of unexpoloded weapons from them. But who did they have guarding the weapons? Why Hamas, of course. I guess that's what happens when Inspector Clouseau is put in charge of the UN in Gaza. U.N.: Hamas stole 7 tons of weapons February 17, 2009 JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The United Nations confirmed that Hamas stole seven tons of unexploded Israeli weapons stored in U.N. warehouses in Gaza. The explosives, fired by Israel during its military operation in Gaza, were set to be destroyed by controlled detonation. The mostly unexploded tank shells were under Hamas guard when they were stolen, Ha'aretz reported Tuesday. The theft was discovered earlier this week, but confirmed Tuesday by the United Nations and the Israel Defense Forces. A U.N. Mines Action Team has been working to collect and dispose of the unexploded weapons since the operation ended in mid-January, according to the BBC. The team has been waiting for Israeli approval to bring equipment into Gaza to neutralize the weapons. The weapons, which could easily be set off accidentally, are being stored near major population areas, Ha'aretz reported. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:15 PM On January 2004, senior Hamas leader Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year hudna in return for complete withdrawal from all territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Rantissi said the hudna was limited to ten years and represented a decision by the movement because it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage; the hudna would however not signal a recognition of the state of Israel. According to Umdat as-Salik, a medieval summary of Shafi'i jurisprudence, hudnas with a non-Muslim enemy should be limited to 10 years: "if Muslims are weak, a truce may be made for ten years if necessary, for the Prophet made a truce with the Quraysh for that long, as is related by Abu Dawud" Then what happens after the 10 year Hudna? They build up their army and weapons during the 10 years and the battle starts again |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:18 PM Newsweek-Washington Post's Lally Weymouth interviewed Hamas's new prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, by phone in his home in the refugee camp where he lives with his wife and 12 children in Gaza. Were you surprised by the size of the Hamas victory? Hamas entered the elections planning to be victorious. Was the victory due to corruption in Fatah, the social services you provided or the general agreement of most Palestinians with the Hamas program of armed resistance? The victory of Hamas is not only based on the corruption of the Palestinian Authority. Hamas has a vision and a program, and this is the reason why the Palestinian people chose Hamas. However, there is no doubt that the corruption helped Hamas's victory. What percent of the people voted for Hamas because of your call for armed resistance? Resistance is one of the reasons for Hamas's victory, but Hamas works [also] in the political, educational and charitable fields. All these activities helped it win. Palestinian President Abu Mazen and the international community have put forward conditions for dealing with Hamas: 1) recognize Israel; 2) recognize existing agreements with Israel made by the Palestinian Liberation Organization; 3) renounce violence. Will you agree to these conditions? We are surprised that such conditions are imposed on us. Why don't they direct such conditions and questions to Israel? Has Israel respected agreements? Israel has bypassed practically all agreements. We say: Let Israel recognize the legitimate rights of the Palestinians first and then we will have a position regarding this. Which Israel should we recognize? The Israel of 1917; the Israel of 1936; the Israel of 1948; the Israel of 1956; or the Israel of 1967? Which borders and which Israel? Israel has to recognize first the Palestinian state and its borders and then we will know what we are talking about. Israel has agreed to a two-state solution, signed agreements with the PLO and withdrawn from Gaza. So will Hamas accept any of the agreements that the PLO -- starting with [Yasser] Arafat and continuing with Abu Mazen -- made with Israel? Number one, the withdrawal from Gaza was based on a unilateral decision and a unilateral plan. It was not [done] out of the generosity of Israel. Has Israel committed itself to all these agreements? We are not war seekers nor are we war initiators. We are not lovers of blood. We are not interested in a vicious cycle of violence. We are oppressed people with rights. If peace brings us our rights, then this is good. Do you accept the Oslo agreement signed by Yasser Arafat? Israel has stopped completely committing itself to Oslo. I am not asking about Israel. Are you, as the new Palestinian prime minister, committed to Oslo? How do you want me not to pay attention or care about what Israel says? Oslo stated that a Palestinian state would be established by 1999. Where is this Palestinian state? Has Oslo given the right to Israel to reoccupy the West Bank, to build the wall and expand the settlements, and to Judaize Jerusalem and make it totally Jewish? Has Israel been given the right to disrupt the work on the port and airport in Gaza? Has Oslo given them the right to besiege Gaza and to stop all tax refunds from the Palestinian Authority? So you will not abide by past agreements made by the Palestinians and Israel? I have not said that. I have said that Israel . . . But you are not the prime minister of Israel. Will you abide by past agreements made by the Palestinian governments and Israel? We will review all agreements and abide by those that are in the interest of the Palestinian people. What agreements will you honor? The ones that will guarantee the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital with 1967 borders -- as well as agreements that would release prisoners. Would Hamas recognize Israel if it were to withdraw to the '67 borders? If Israel withdraws to the '67 borders, then we will establish a peace in stages. What does that mean? Number one: We will establish a situation of stability and calm which will bring safety for our people -- what Sheikh [Ahmed] Yassin [a Hamas founder] called a long-term hudna . Does a peace in stages means the ultimate obliteration of the Jewish people? We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody. Do you recognize Israel's right to exist? The answer is to let Israel say it will recognize a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, release the prisoners and recognize the rights of the refugees to return to Israel. Hamas will have a position if this occurs. So will you extend the present ceasefire? I will not say yes or no. The problem is with Israel. If Israel gives us a quiet period and stops its incursions and the assassinations, then we will be able to convince our people to continue with a state of quiet. How is Hamas going to run its government with the United States cutting back funds and the Palestinian government having a deficit of $700 million? Will Iran make up the difference? We have an economic plan for self-sufficiency based on rationing and protection of public money. Number two: Our relationship with the Islamic and Arab world has shown indications that these people will support us. Number three: The liberals and free people of the world will not like to see the Palestinian people living under siege. We have received indications from the international community that they will not stop their aid. I ask the American administration not to participate in any resolution that will double the suffering of the Palestinian people. I am convinced that the American people would not want to see the Palestinians suffer the way they do. You must offer Americans some kind of assurance that you agree with President Bush's two-state solution, that you oppose violence and suicide bombings, that you favor peace. Can you? All the Palestinian people would like to stop the bloodshed and take the civilians away from this vicious cycle of violence. The problem is not with us but with the Israelis. Will you recognize Israel? If Israel declares that it will give the Palestinian people a state and give them back all their rights, then we are ready to recognize them. Israel does not have a charter calling for the destruction of the Palestinian state. Our only position will be declared once Israel recognizes our right to exist. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon accepted a two-state solution as did President Bush. What do you say about the two-state solution? It all starts with Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:51 PM Ismail Haniya: I ask the American administration not to participate in any resolution that will double the suffering of the Palestinian people. I am convinced that the American people would not want to see the Palestinians suffer the way they do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:55 PM Ismail Haniyeh Palestinian Legal Prime Minister HAMAS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:08 AM Hamas in it's own words |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM Gawd damn it, Sawzaw: STOP confusing this issue with facts! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM U.S. lawmakers make rare visit to Hamas-ruled Gaza GAZA (Reuters) – The highest-ranking U.S. delegation to visit the Gaza Strip in years toured bomb-damaged buildings Thursday and blamed the enclave's Hamas rulers for provoking Israel's wrath with cross-border rocket attacks. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman John Kerry and two members of the House of Representatives, Brian Baird and Keith Ellison, shunned Hamas during tours one month after Israel ended its 22-day Gaza offensive. It was the highest-level visit by U.S. legislators to the Gaza Strip since a Palestinian uprising against Israel erupted in 2000, U.S. officials in the region said. Kerry, who ran an unsuccessful campaign for president in 2004, earlier toured the Israeli border town of Sderot, a frequent target of rockets. During his visit to a U.N. compound in Gaza, Kerry was given a letter from Hamas to deliver to President Barack Obama. UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness said the letter had been left for Kerry at the gate of the compound and that he did not know the content. "We don't open other people's mail," Gunness said. Kerry's office had no immediate comment. Though major fighting has stopped, tensions remain high. Israel bombed smuggling tunnels along Gaza's border with Egypt and militants fired a rocket that landed near Sderot. During his visit to Gaza, Kerry, a member of Obama's Democratic party, toured the bombed-out American School and asked administrators whether Israel was letting in enough supplies for the Gaza Strip's 1.5 million residents. Israel allows humanitarian aid into the impoverished enclave but has ruled out fully opening its border crossings to materials needed for reconstruction until Hamas frees an Israeli soldier captured in a 2006 cross-border raid. ... Sharhabeel al-Zaeem, a member of the school's board, told Kerry that Israel was supplying only "the minimum" of what was needed and complained that ordinary Palestinians felt isolated because of the Israeli-led and Western-backed blockade of Gaza. As chairman of the Senate committee, Kerry can influence U.S. foreign policy and aid. Hamas won a 2006 Palestinian election and seized control of the Gaza Strip 18 months later after routing Fatah forces loyal to Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. BOYCOTT The United States and the European Union boycott the Islamist group, which they consider a terrorist organization, over its refusal to recognize Israel, renounce violence and abide by interim peace deals with the Jewish state. "Your political leadership needs to make critical decisions and make it clear how it is willing to move to make peace, and those fundamental decisions have not been made," Kerry told Zaeem and others at the school. "Secondly, your political leadership needs to understand that any nation that has rockets coming into it over many years, threatening its citizens, is going to respond," Kerry said. ..... The war in Gaza, which Israel launched with the declared aim of halting militants' rocket fire, killed more than 1,300 Palestinians, destroyed some 5,000 homes and ruined much of Gaza's infrastructure, local officials say. Kerry said the U.S. policy of shunning Hamas was unchanged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas achieves its goals From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM Hamas now planning to dismantle journalists unionSeptember 4, 2007Hamas has decided to stop dealing with the Palestine Journalists Syndicate (PJS) and has gone to the extent saying that it would be dissolving the journalists union, the International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) has reported. Journalists are increasingly under pressure in the region as the rivalry of Hamas and the Fatah faction in Palestinian politics has led to the growing separation of Gaza and the West Bank, IFJ said. There have been raids on PJS offices and many Gaza leaders of the syndicate have fled to the West Bank. The situation became more tense with the issuing of a controversial press statement in the name of the Gaza section of the syndicate which criticised in strong terms the actions of Hamas forces. The government reacted angrily denouncing the statement as lies. On Monday, Mohamed Abu Hasheish, head of government press office in Gaza and deputy minister of information, said that the government had decided to stop dealing with the PJS leadership until journalists are able to put their syndicate in order. Later in the day Tahir Al Nouno, head of the newly-formed governmental media committee, announced in Gaza that they were dissolving PJS. IFJ says the action is provocative and unwarranted. 'It is for journalists themselves to decide what action, if any, needs to be taken,' said White. 'We support the syndicate's efforts to bring about reform - but this is their business, not that of politicians.' IFJ condemned the Hamas government over the revival after 10 years of a media law and a governmental media committee, claiming this signals new threats to press freedom. It expressed concern at the Hamas action directed against the PJS leadership and its President Naim Toubassi who is a member of the IFJ Executive Committee. 'We are witnessing clear political interference in journalism,' said Aidan White, IFJ General Secretary. 'The organisation of journalists is a matter for journalists alone, not for regulation by divisive political forces.' The PJS council has appealed to IFJ for support, claiming Hamas is targeting the syndicate and its president because of its outspoken defence of journalists' interests. 'Going on past experience, we have no doubt that the activation of 1995 media law is intended to impose severe restrictions on free journalism,' said White. The 1995 law, which was brought in under the late Yasser Arafat but never enforced, bans publication of information likely to 'endanger national unity, incite crimes or hatred, division and religious dissent.' It also prohibits publication of 'secret information' about the police, security forces, their weapons, movements and training camps. Those convicted risk six months in prison and the three-month suspension of the offending publication or media organisation. 'We cannot change this law, it is the only one we have. We will implement its articles but we respect the freedom of the press,' said a Hamas spokesman, Tahar Al Nunu. Nunu is the head of a new committee set up by Hamas as a 'reference point for journalists which is aimed at simplifying the gathering of information about the government.' The World Association of Newspapers (WAN) too has condemned the increasing harassment of journalists in the Palestinian Territories stemming from the conflict between Fatah and Hamas. 'We are concerned by numerous incidents of harassment of journalists since the split of the Palestinian Territories between Hamas and Fatah in June,' the Paris-based WAN said in a statement released Tuesday. 'We condemn the deterioration of working conditions for Palestinian journalists and call on both sides to do everything possible to ensure that journalists are free to carry out their work without fear of intimidation or violence.' Hamas subsequently announced that it had the 'right' to conduct raids against media and would enforce a 1995 press law that imposes jail sentences for publishing certain information about police and security forces or information that would 'endanger' national unit |
