|
Subject: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:48 AM "We consider it a new kind of resistance, highly successful, one that will serve us well against the Israeli enemy," said Jamila Shanti, a Hamas lawmaker from Beit Hanoun and founder of the party's women's wing. The fiery 50-year-old former philosophy professor is widely credited for coming up with the new strategy of using women as human shields to fend off Israeli attacks. She led the demonstration of women in Beit Hanoun on Nov. 3, which allowed dozens of Hamas militants to escape an Israeli siege on a mosque." I am confused. Everyone knows that Israelis do not care about hurting Arab civillians. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Ernest Date: 20 Nov 06 - 08:09 AM "Everybody knows" = "everybody is made to believe"? And we have discussed that tactic of using civilians as shields in recent threads, so it isn`t exactly new. "New" might be only the fact that Hamas admits it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:13 AM Everyone knows that Israelis do not care about hurting Arab civillians. Now there's a classic troll statement. Folks, don't feed this anti-Semitism. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Greg F. Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:34 AM You're confusing anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. A common & convenient tactic, but a mistake nonetheless. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:53 AM This was an incredibly brave action on the part of those involved, in the light of the number of occasions when civilians have been killed in the course of Israeli assassinations, and of the fact when a similar tactic had been tried a few days before some of those taking part had been killed. Indeed a few hours later, on the very same day the human shield succeeded in deterring this bombing, an IAF assassination attack killed a 75 year old man, and wounded nine people, including four children aged five, 13, 14, and 16. Here is the Haaretz report on this. Saying that Israelis "do not care about hurting Arab civilians" is a generalisation too far - clearly there are some Israelis who do care about that sort of thing, perhaps even most Israelis. But the killings take place, for all that, and the number killed have always been far far higher than the numbers killed in reprisal by Palestinians. This "new tactic" is perhaps the most encouraging development in a long time, if it offers hope that the concept of martyrdom can be shifted from suicide bombing to a non-violent willingness to face death but without killing. And the fact that on this occasion it succeeded, and that the Israelis responded by refusing to kill the human shields, is a spark of hope in a situation that has appeared increasingly hopeless. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Nov 06 - 09:54 AM I think Keith was being ironic. I'd argue that some Zionists (but not all Israelis, and certainly not all Jews) DO value Palestinians' lives below the lives of Jewish people, and that this occasionally shows in government and army policies. And, of course, vice- versa. It's a sad fact that racism is not confined to any one culture. The use of compulsion to create a human shield is a crime against humanity. Where the shield is voluntary, it is not. It will be argued by some that the participants thereby become combatants and legitimate targets, but even if the use of arms against them is legal, it would be a public relations disaster for those who did so. Israel is both wise and humane in respecting the human shield, and I hope that in the longer term this non- violent tactic can lead on to an active engagement between all parties over the issues at dispute. I don't recall anyone criticising the lone protester who stood in front of the tanks in Tiananmen Square, but this is another example of a voluntary human shield. I'm sure you can think of many others. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Bunnahabhain Date: 20 Nov 06 - 10:45 AM This is a very brave, and very sensible action from some Palastinians. A martyr is willing to die for their people, but a hero would much rather live for them. ( I forget where the quote is from) I just hope that this is not taken advange of. If some group sees this working, and starts firing rockets from the roof of a building, whilst it is surrounded in this way, then this presents the Israeli millitary with the unenviable choice of letting the bombardment continue, or enduring the storm of outrage the media and international community will let loose if they strike at this millitary target. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:03 AM Yes, Keith's statement, "Everyone knows that Israelis do not care about hurting Arab civillians." obviously fell int a sarchasm. Sarchasm: 1) The span of time between the point when an ironic/sarcastic statement is uttered and the point when the listener/reader realizes what was actually meant. 2) The difference in degree of wit between a person who makes an ironic/sarcastic comment and a listener/reader who is incapable of recognizing irony/sarchasm. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:16 AM Maybe he thinks we're mindreaders-- we're not. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: NH Dave Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:32 AM Susan, Since both parties to this situation are Semitic, any comments we make are bound to be anti Semitic. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Grab Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:38 AM Excellent, people who've learned the lesson of Gandhi - non-violent resistance *does* work. Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Amos Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:39 AM I am personally strongly biased against semis. I think they should stay off the road during daylight hours. And I am also anti-semiotic. I dislike excessive wranglings about meaning. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:47 AM I agree about the semis, Amos. Particularly on the stretch of Interstate 5 between Seattle, WA and Portland, OR. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Peace Date: 20 Nov 06 - 11:51 AM . . . but does Hamas realize they have ham in their name? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 20 Nov 06 - 12:09 PM Sarcasm 101 Lesson One Any statement beginning with "Everyone knows" or any similar construction should be viewed as having a high potential for ironic or sarcastic intent. There's nothing which everyone knows, so any such statement should be viewed as, quite possibly, hyperbolic. Needless to say, the above rule should be ignored if said statement is made by Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell or any of their ilk. For that matter, it should be ignored if said statement is made by the current president of the United States, which is a pretty scary realization. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: John MacKenzie Date: 20 Nov 06 - 12:34 PM Unfortunately the most likely outcome of this tactic is that the Israelis with no longer phone first before bombing, as they did in this instance. Or perhaps the Palestinians and Hezbollah would like to reciprocate by phoning before they fire their Katushya rockets. No of course they can't do that can they, because they don't know where they're going to land do they? Giok |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Bunnahabhain Date: 20 Nov 06 - 12:36 PM There's a sarcasm lesson from an American? I heard the world turned up-side-down alot in something about Yorktown today, but this just isn't right.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:40 PM The Israeli Air Force didn't phone before blowing up that car and killing an old man and wounding four children, as reported in that Haaretz story I linked to. Or, of course, before killing 18 civilians, including a whole family, last week in what was claimed to have been, and perhaps was, a targeting error. But the precedent of Palestinians using non-violent means against state terrorism is now established, and offers a model of martyrdom with a lot more potential for achieving something than futile suicide bombings or overwhelmingly ineffectual rockets. Though since that makes it a lot more threatening for the irredentists on the other side, it could be a very rough ride ahead. I have an uneasy feeling there will be those in Israel arguing in favour of going ahead regardless. "So what about the bleeding hearts? If we keep hitting the target these human shields will give it up once a few more have been killed... And who's going to remember them once they've gone back to something we can handle, like suicide bombs?" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: akenaton Date: 20 Nov 06 - 01:46 PM Pretty obvious Keith was trying out his wit for a change... But nobody's perfect. The Israelis would not hesitate to slaughter the palistinian women, if it could be done without their govt becoming pariahs in the eyes of good people everywhere. At the moment Israel is engaged in destroying one by one, members of a democratically elected government....People power may stop this happening. Perhaps we should try it in US/UK.....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:20 PM Israel could retaliate by putting its civillians in the path of Hamas' kazam rockets. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: GUEST Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:23 PM Let's hope that those who WOULD have been suicide bombers will be the first martyrs. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:43 PM If it could move from a competition between who is best at killing into who is best at trying to stop the killing, at the risk of their lives, that would be a huge step forward. Maybe someone was listening to Rachel Corrie after all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: GUEST,asper Date: 20 Nov 06 - 06:32 PM The Jabaliya Refugee Camp in Gaza was the scene of Palestinian celebrations yesterday. No, a "martyr" from the camp hadn't managed to blow up a restaurant full of Israeli families, the usual reason for joyous gatherings among Arabs in this part of the world. Rather, the locals were celebrating the victory of their "human shields" in thwarting an air strike against the home of wanted terrorist Wail Barud. But while the assembly of hundreds of Palestinians in anticipation of the planned Israeli bombing did succeed in protecting Barud's home, the tactic may have backfired from a propaganda perspective: It served to demonstrate that Israel does not seek to kill Palestinian civilians wholesale, as Arab propagandists constantly claim. Indeed, it is clear the Palestinians themselves do not believe their own propaganda about Israel's alleged thirst for blood. Otherwise, they never would have been able to recruit all those human shields. If Israel really were as sadistic as its critics claim, it wouldn't have called off yesterday's bombing run. Just the opposite: It would have jumped at the chance to kill so many Palestinians at one go. Just imagine if the shoe were on the other foot, and hundreds of Israeli "human shields" positioned themselves in an unguarded cafe in the West Bank. Palestinian suicide bombers would be stepping over each other in an effort to attack the target. "Human shields" work only when your enemy fights like a human. A second irony is that it is men like Barud who are at the root of Palestinian misery -- for if they were not firing rockets at Israel from Gaza, and smuggling in weapons from Egypt, there would be no need for the Jewish state to stage counterterrorist operations in Gaza, every square inch of which it evacuated in August, 2005. If Palestinians were more rational about where their society's interests lie, they would go to Barud's house not to offer protection -- but to arrest him so that others in the area could live in peace. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:13 PM If the Germans in the 1930/40s were more rational about where their society's interests lay, they would have gone to Jew's houses not to offer protection -- but to arrest them so that others in the area could live in peace. Oh - some did... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:13 PM And if it did demonstrate that, on this occasion at any rate, Israel refrained from killing, in order to avoid a massacre, isn't that a good thing? A non-violent action provoking the other side not to carry out a violent attack. In fact a win-win situation for everyone. Contrast that with the horrible business a couple of hours later reported in that Haaretz story I linked to, where four children were among those injured and an old man killed, in an assassination attack by Israel. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the aim of this kind of thing is to provoke a Palestinian reprisal, which will justify further similar killings. And that would also be the aim of the Palestinian reprisal. There's a kind of partnership involved between the killers on both sides. They need each other. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:34 PM "the aim of the Palestinian reprisal. " An eye for an eye - a life for a life. Old idea. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:38 PM If it really was "a ife for a life" the death toll would be far smaller. On both sides. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:39 PM If it really was "a life for a life" the death toll would be far smaller. On both sides. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:45 PM Sadly McGrath - one sides's "Weapons of Mass Retaliation" are just more effective at killing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Nov 06 - 03:37 AM Asper has expressed what I was thinking. Use of human shields implies that you trust the enemy not to harm them. Israel has been justly criticised for diproportionate responses and use of cluster bombs, but the acccusation of wanton killing may have been overstated if only because it would not be in their interest. The absurdity of my suggestion that Israel use human shields against Hamas rockets is, of course, that they are designed and intended to kill civillians anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Nov 06 - 04:37 AM Foolestroope wrote "If the Germans in the 1930/40s were more rational about where their society's interests lay, they would have gone to Jew's houses not to offer protection -- but to arrest them so that others in the area could live in peace. " You are making a comparison between Hamas activists and the Jews of Germany. In what way was their behaviour analagous? Were those Jews involved in violent or antisocial behaviour?How did they threaten "society's interests" ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Nov 06 - 04:55 AM Foole was being ironic too. There is a bit of comparison between that era in Germany and the Middle East today- if only that when people are so hysterical about the issue they can no longer think. Those poor buggers who froze, starved, bled and burned outside Stalingrad did so because they, or enough people around them, had swallowed the Nazis propoganda about racism. Both Israelis and Palestinians are dying because neither will look for the glimmer of justice in the other side's case. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:00 AM Thank you Paul. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:08 AM "neither will look for the glimmer of justice in the other side's case" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:14 AM Thank you. I did recognise the irony. Asper suggested Hamas activists should be arrested and Foolestroope said that would be wrong as arresting the German Jews was wrong. My question was how do you justify the comparison. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:33 AM I didn't say 'arresting german jews was wrong' but "but to arrest them so that others in the area could live in peace. Oh - some did... " |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:47 AM Yes, I got the joke thank you. With that in mind please re read my reply and question. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Nov 06 - 07:23 AM No Joke intended Mate! - people on 'both sides' then were just as scared of 'the other side'*** as now in the Middle East. Just like the USA (and I can remember many loudmouth rednecks here on Mudcat ranting about 'sticking it to the Iraqis'!) is now tiring of 'the blood bath that is Iraq' - the Israelis will never have any REAL desire for peace (and want to live in peace with their neighbours) until they bleed as much as the people their armies kill. Probably take a few nukes tossed around on both sides to do that, things have gone so far, and the racial hatred so deep now. Just like in Iraq, every one that is killed makes 10 more enemies - on both sides. *** The (US) White House TV show has now shifted from Commercial TV (too serious, mate!) to the ABC - the last show made the strong point that BOTH sides in the Middle East have far more in common with each other culturally than they have differences. And also made the point that NEITHER SIDE wants to be seen as 'weak' by giving ANYTHING away, first to do it or not. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Nov 06 - 07:26 AM "It's easy for fools to make war - only wise men can make peace." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Nickhere Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:00 PM One or two posts have suggested that the Palestinian tactic of using voluntary human shields proves the IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) are not interested in killing Palestinians wholesale. The logic is that if they were, the human shields would not present themselves as a target. Even if the IDF was interested in some form of fast total genocide, the current political climate would not allow such an action, as it would be too blatant and the international community would be obliged to move to some form of strong sanction. Israel cannot afford that, despite its strong position of having virtually unconditional US backing. On the other hand, killing a few Palestinians here and there this day and that could eventually achieve the same effect over a much longer period. One thing is sure, the IDF have (as has already been noted here) always managed to kill several Palestinians for every one Israeli civilians killed, and don't seem overly worried when 'they get it wrong'. It has been suggested that when the IDF kill innocent Palestinian civilians they get hauled before the courts and justice is served. If that were really true, they'd be much more circumspect about where their artillery and bullets were going. The human shield volunteers are probably worried that they might get killed - the IDF have in the past killed foreign peace activists, journalists and even UN troops (in Lebanon) so a few dozen Palestinian women might not be so safe if the IDF lost patience. On the other hand, it would eb a rather obvious killing - when civilans are killed in artillery strikes etc., the IDF can claim it was an 'error' (though apparently only Hamas aren't supposed to know where theior rockets will go - sarcascm, btw). Much harder to do that when it's 50 women with a lot of media attention on them already. Someone suggested the women should go in and arrest the militants so 'they can live in peace'..... I don't know what your definition of peace is, but I don't think that the living conditions in Gaza or the occupied West Bank could even be loosely be described as 'peaceful'. Being woken at whim by tank shells at 6am, turned back at checkpoints on whim despite having all the right papers, searched, hassled, beaten up, living under curfew etc., etc., No, that's not 'peace'. That aside, I think another point is being missed here, and that is Palestinian desperation: first they got fed up with Arafat, nothing much happening, their lands still confiscated, their farms grabbed and bulldozed, their lives controlled in a thousand petty details by a foreign occupying army, being hemmed into a giant reservation (when Israeli Jewish settlers aren't taking the parts they want) fenced in by a wall. So, they decide to turn tro that much-vaunted democracy and vote for Hamas to represent them. Whether you agree with Hamas' policies etc., the Palestinians noentheless voted for them, to represent them (as Israelis voted for those in Knesset). The first thing the 'civilised world' does is tell them "ooh, you made the WRONG democratic choice, now go back and pick a bunch of leaders WE want to have represent you" And cut off aid to the Palestinian Authority (further impoverishing the people). Voluntray human shields are a sign of desperation, but also of support for their elected representatives and the party to which they belong. You might say these men were militant gunmen, and that's true. Members of Knesset don't actually go out and fire guns themsleves, but they do have the IDF and final say in what it does and when and where it uses its guns, so are they all that different? Others have said Paelstinian problems are all down to their own fault. They are to blame for their own poverty etc., No doubt there's some truth in that, all polirtical parties fall temptation to corruption etc., and no society is perfect. But there is a kind of racism in that argument that ignores other factors. Can you imagine anyone arguing that all of Africa's problems are due to their own corruption and laziness, and that colonialism, divide and conquer and outside exploitation have nothing to do with it ? Yes, the Israelis have made areas of Palestine fertile etc., produced much technology etc., but they've had billions of dollars of US help also, not to mention a flow of technology from the US to Israel. Someone said the Israeli Govt etc., will not attack the human shields for fear of being held up as a pariah. That may be true, but they are already regarded as a pariah in many places and among many people. The 'new Hamas tactic' at least is non-violent, but I hope it is fruitful and embarasses the Israelis into taking a different approach in Palestine. We have an old saying here "it is not those who can inflict the most, but those who can endure the most, who will prevail" Hamas, and all the rest of it, wouldn't be, if Palestinians were getting a fair deal and real peace. But that's not up to Palestinians alone, it's also up to Israelis. The question is, what do they want more? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:20 PM And what f**king ball clanking red necked alpha male type genius decided that destroying the pathetic 'temporary' homes of the parents of suicide bombers would bring peace? The Nazis murdered 100 or so civilians at random for evey soldier killed by 'resistors' and that just resulted in a lot of murdered civilians (even whole towns shut up in the church and set fire to!) - and MORE killed soldiers. First the parents are devastated that their loved ones do something absolutely stupid - guaranteed to bring retaliation - but before they have a chance to blame the loonies who brainwashed their child - some f**king ball clanking red necked alpha male type genius smashes their home to rubble - and them too if they don't run away fast enough! Any wonder their friends and neighbours decide - well, (in the words of Tom Leher)"Then we'll all go together when we go!" and brainwash THEIR OWN children into becoming suicide bombers too... Don't forget that some of the loonies (and strongly supported by the loony Xtians!) - actually WANT, nay SEEK the 'total destruction of everything in the Real World' as PART OF THEIR RELIGION! Some of them even claim THAT THEY SHOULD SPEED THE ULTIMATE DESTRUCTION UP - for the fulfilment of their warped beliefs! Why the hell would THEY 'want peace'?!!! And lets just hope that their 'Dr Strangloves' will not be able to dig themselves out of their nice deep bunkers after having pushed the red button - I'll have too many other important things on MY mind to want to waste resources digging THEM out of the glowing rubble. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: number 6 Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:56 PM "the Jews of Germany" In your analogy of Nazi Germany (which always arises in the discussion of Israel and the mideast, in case you have forgotten, there were more than just German Jews arrested, it was more like a roundup. You failed to mention the ... Jews of Latvia Jews of Poland Jews of the Ukraine Jews of France Jews of Italy Jews of Hungary ... in fact every Jew who was unfortunate to live in the German occupied countries, which was of all of Europe. biLL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:50 AM "every Jew who was unfortunate to live in the German occupied countries, which was of all of Europe." Did you knwo that the Japanese refused to give up some Jews who manages to reach there? A clever rabbi pointed out that the Oriental Stereotype was at odds with the Aryian stereotype... :-) "You failed to mention the ..." I also failed to mention the truth that the Jews - although by far the greater number nowadays appear to have 'kidnapped' the Holocaust as if were ONLY them butchered - the Jews were not the first and only to be killed - he started on the physically and mentally deficient - the insane, the homosexuals... etc oh, and the Gypsies, etc - and any opponents like the Communists, those in his own Party... " your analogy of Nazi Germany " No 'analogy' should be taken too far - it's a 'simile' not a ' perfect rerun of history'... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Peace Date: 22 Nov 06 - 11:31 AM True, but also bullshit when put in those terms. Genocide is not a nice thing. Doesn't matter who does it. As to Jews kidnapping the Holocaust--fuck, it happened. What's to kidnap? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Nickhere Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:16 PM Yes, it happened, no doubt about that. But Norman Finkelstein has written a rather intersesting book on how the historical fact of the holocaust (which as someone pointed out, included thousands upon thousands of gypsies, communists, gays, the mentally deficient etc., etc., plus large numbers of Slavic peoples: the SS burnt down some 600 villages in Byleorussia alone) has been 'hijacked' (I can't think of a better word) and re-cast as a solely Jewish tragedy and as a unique tragedy that surpasses all analysis etc., That's not to say all Jewish people have bought into this (Norman is Jewish himself) The book is called "The Holocaust Industry" and Norman accuses certain segments of America's Jewish elite (in particular) of appropriating the holocaust for their own ends, political and financial, but also to deflect any criticism of Israeli policy through charges of anti-semitism. He suggests that such people are doing the memory of the holocaust victims a major disfavour. You're right about genocide - it's a horrible thing, and let's hope we can all do our bit in whatever way we can to stamp it out whoever's doing it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Peace Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:19 PM People who feel that Jews 'hijacked' history have very little knowledge of history. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: number 6 Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM "hijacked" Come on now ... this is absurd, ignorant. Norman Finklestein ... got rave reviews on stormfront.org I see. biLL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Nickhere Date: 22 Nov 06 - 09:02 PM Number 6: 'Stormfront.org' ... I'd never heard of them until you mentioned them. Do you usually spend your time surfing white supremacist websites? Anyway I checked it out since you did mention it, and lo and behold, a white supremacist site. So there we go again. Anyone dares question 'official' history, and its hinted or implied they're a white supremacist / Nazi by association - a cheap shot. He has even anticipated this in his book, telling how he has been referred to as a 'self-hating Jew' by those who'd rather attack him than seriously consider his research. No doubt if he was not a Jew, he wouldn't even be tolerated that far, and people'd just go for the jugglar, calling him a fascist outright. Finklestein got rave reviews in 'the Times', too, I gather. Peace: Finkelstein (and I) did not say 'Jews' appropriated history. He said that a section of the American Jewish elite (and how he defines that term you will see if you read his book) decided to use and adapt the history of the holocaust for their own ends. I don't intend to go through his book exhaustively, as I haven't the time, and if you're really interested you'll read it yourself. But by way of example he talks about how the holocaust memorial in Washington came to be an exclusively 'jewish' holocaust memorial, in that the other persecuted groups got barely a mention. This cast the holocaust as an exclusively jewish tragedy, which is not the case. I remember when I was a child and it first began to filter through to me that something as awful as WW2 had happened. I was quite upset that humans could be so horrible to other humans. I was equally upset that it should have happened in living memory. I had taken it as axiomatic that such things could only have happened in ancient times when we were all barbarians. In later life I came to realise that many other horrible things had happened both before and after WW2. I felt very sorry for the Jews and their persecution during WW2. I couldn't help but empathise, given the history of my own country where we have experienced ethnic cleansing and racism and conquest etc., I thought, 'they're a lot like us'. In later life again I got a bit annoyed though, when I realised that a large number of Jews who'd decided to settle in Israel were treating the Palestinians to their own chapter of persecution. I felt (and feel) that given their own history, Jews ought to have more been sympathetic to the humanity of their fellow man, but it seems that's not the case. Human nature never changes, whatever the lessons of history may be. I also dislike what I call false consensus, where everyone agrees to believe a certain thing and won't allow it to be held up and examined in the light of day ( and implying someone's a fascist etc., is as good as trying to shut them up). For instance, growing up, I understood that the English and Americans were 'the good guys' who defeated the bad guys, and saved the Jews. But there were cracks in that theory from early days. It puzzled me how the English could be the good guys yet have behaved so awfully in my own country. Were we less deserving of 'being saved' than Jews? Then other fragments came in (and no, Number 6, not from surfing white supremacist sites or reading their literature, but from all kinds of sources, run-of-the-mill history books etc.,): the Americans fought WW2 to save the Jews and defeat the Nazis (this theme is thinly veiled in Band of Brothers 'Why We Fight' for example). But how can that be, I wondered, when I realised the US really dragged its heels about taking in even a few Jewish refugees, when Uncle Sam hired former Nazi scientists with very dubious backgrounds AFTER the war and Nuremberg and all that - quite happy to benefit from their expertise, however they came by it (as did the Soviets), how US banks also had numerous 'dormant' Jewish accounts that could be linked to holocaust survivors, yet only did the perfunctory search and compensation, whereas Swiss and German banks were turned upside down and shaken. Then there were the concentration camps.. only in Germany? No, it turned out the Brits basically invented them during the Boer War, though the Indian reservations were little better in many cases, not to mention the wholesale incarcertaion of US-Japanese citizens during WW2. Something was definitely 'rotten in the state of Denmark' to quote Shakespeare. So forgive me if I treat 'history' with some scepticism. More often than not what passes for history is social engineering. A typical line reagrding compensating victims of the holocaust is that there is no 'statute of limitations' on war crimes, genocide, ethnic cleansing and illegal seizure of property. Fair enough. But where does that leave the American Indians and the Palestinians....? I look forward to their compensation in the near future by our principled civilisation.... but maybe we'd better start a new thread on this one? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: number 6 Date: 22 Nov 06 - 09:42 PM No Nick ... I certainly don't make a habit of surfing white supremacist websites .... I admit I had never heard of Mr. Finklestein before your post ... so I did a google on him this afternoon ... 3 sites down was one review of his book by someone on stormfront ... googling him again this evening it appears on page 4 of the google .. having been replaced by an review/interview on Islamonline ... regardless there appears on the first 5 pages in the google positive interest in him by such radical antisemites as Earnst Zundel's Vanguard website, and David Duke's website. I dunno Nick ... when these guys show an interest in such maverick writers as Norman Finklestein (whom I knew nothing about) I get an uneasy feeling on the author and his writings. Zundel and Duke I find repulsive, and if they endorse Finklestein for his denial of the holocaust then that says it all to me. biLL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas new tactic From: Teribus Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:53 AM Nickhere - 21 Nov 06 - 05:00 PM "I think another point is being missed here, and that is Palestinian desperation: first they got fed up with Arafat, nothing much happening, their lands still confiscated, their farms grabbed and bulldozed, their lives controlled in a thousand petty details by a foreign occupying army, being hemmed into a giant reservation (when Israeli Jewish settlers aren't taking the parts they want) fenced in by a wall. So, they decide to turn tro that much-vaunted democracy and vote for Hamas to represent them. Whether you agree with Hamas' policies etc., the Palestinians noentheless voted for them, to represent them (as Israelis voted for those in Knesset). The first thing the 'civilised world' does is tell them "ooh, you made the WRONG democratic choice, now go back and pick a bunch of leaders WE want to have represent you" And cut off aid to the Palestinian Authority (further impoverishing the people)." I think that Nickhere is ignoring an extremely important point and attempting to completely misrepresent what actually happened: "Whether you agree with Hamas' policies etc., the Palestinians noentheless voted for them, to represent them (as Israelis voted for those in Knesset). The first thing the 'civilised world' does is tell them "ooh, you made the WRONG democratic choice, now go back and pick a bunch of leaders WE want to have represent you" That is not what happened at all. Nickhere for some reason best known to himself does not seem to believe mentioning that the cornerstone of Hamas policy is important. Just to refresh his memory and introduce it into the debate, the declared aim of Hamas is the total destruction of the State of Israel and annihilation of the Jewish/Israeli population. It was that policy statement that the "civilised world" quite rightly took exception to Nickhere. At no time whatsoever did the "civilised world" tell the Palestinian electorate to go and pick another bunch of leaders Nickhere. What the "civilised world" did do was tell the PA and Hamas that unless Hamas recanted and withdrew that stated policy and officially stated that they recognised Israel's right to exist in peace as a sovereign state there would be no further funding. |
