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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Oct 23 - 02:06 PM I hit send instead of preview with my fat finger there. I don't think I need to add corrections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Oct 23 - 05:51 PM UN chief António Guterres condemned “clear violations of international law” in Gaza as the US added to mounting pressure on the Israeli government to pause its bombardment of the besieged coastal enclave and allow in more aid. In his toughest remarks so far about the conduct of the war in the Gaza Strip, Guterres told the UN security council on Tuesday that the safety of civilians was paramount. “Protecting civilians can never mean using them as human shields,” the secretary-general said, adding that it “does not mean ordering more than 1mn people to evacuate to the south, where there is no shelter, no food, no water, no medicine and no fuel, and then continuing to bomb the south itself”. Guterres also said that Hamas’s deadly assault on southern Israel on October 7 “did not happen in a vacuum”. “The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation,” he added, though he said their grievances could not justify the “appalling attacks”. That's the secretary-general of the UN. Not the favourite institution of the US, of course. The first really influential voice to speak up against Israeli violence in Gaza. The reaction of the Israeli regime is to call for his removal. The Israeli regime can't take criticism. You can bet your ass that Biden won't defend Gutteres. Let's see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Oct 23 - 05:58 PM Yes Bill. But the existential issue is the death of thousands of civilians, including thousands of children. That has to stop. I don't give a flying fart about your US politics today. That can come later. Thousands of children, just like my grandson, are being slaughtered. If anyone thinks that that means Israel taking the moral high ground, then I'm at a complete loss. We need Biden to change his mind and call for an immediate ceasefire. If he doesn't, he'll be complicit in the deaths of thousands more Gaza citizens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Oct 23 - 04:55 AM The Israeli regime is facing a massive and increasing problem of perception. Every time one of their spokespeople pops up on the telly they repeat the (justified: don't get me wrong) rant about the horrors of October 7, commonly in graphic detail. But that happened nearly three weeks ago and, since then, Hamas has done little that's different from what they usually do (I'm excluding the dreadful hospital incident because it's not been settled who it was who did it and it isn't being used by either side for propaganda). On the other hand, there are video cameras everywhere in Gaza which are providing us with footage of new horrors every day. Dunno about you, but that has the cumulative effect on me of generating increasing revulsion at what I'm seeing Israel doing, and there's no end in sight. The stated aim of destroying Hamas can't be achieved and I strongly suspect that the real aim is to destroy Gaza and drive its citizens into Egypt. Another thing: I don't understand the concept of "humanitarian pause" versus ceasefire. Are we really saying "stop for now and resume the killing later"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Oct 23 - 06:42 AM Whilst I'm a fan of Al Jazeera, I've been avoiding their coverage of this conflict. I'm not saying they're biased, but I suppose that if I repeatedly quoted them in this thread that accusation would be levelled at me and I already suspect that some might think that I'm a bit too pro-Palestinian as it is. I can keep up with what's going on wherever I am with the Guardian website and, in the evening, on BBC TV. Getting your news from unbiased sources and avoiding one's own tendency toward confirmation bias is fraught with difficulty. It's been well said that no-one can claim the moral high ground in this conflict and that there are no good guys. Just to nuance that slightly, we should say that we are talking about the leaders of factions and not about the ordinary civilians on both sides. There will be thousands of hard-headed Gazans who support Hamas and all the terrible things they did, and there will thousands of hard-headed Israelis who think that all those suffering Gazans are only getting what they deserve and for whom Bibi is their hero. But even people like that on both sides don't deserve to be bombed, shot at or murdered. Eighty million deluded idiots voted for Trump but they don't deserve to be bombed, shot at or murdered either. Current media coverage can't show much that's new about what's happening to Israeli citizens, but we can see plenty that's new that's happening in Gaza every day. That can make news bulletins look biased, but I don't think that's right. We should be shown what is known to be happening in as near to an honest and objective way as is possible. And I agree with Mr Gutierrez when he reminds us of the long history of the region and that this conflict isn't happening in a vacuum. Israeli leaders seem to think that mentioning that is antisemitic, blood libel even. Well they would, wouldn't they. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Oct 23 - 05:37 PM Not available here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Oct 23 - 05:29 AM The attacks in Syria are absolutely connected to the conflict in Israel. Iran has said that attacking US military installations in the region will continue as long as the US continues to support Israel against the Palestinians. In the 1980s the presence of US military bases in the UK caused such revulsion that there were huge demonstrations at the bases (I went on several of them, with several Labour MPs also present) and there was a women's camp for years at the Greenham Common nuclear weapons US base which Mrs Steve and I also supported, which, arguably, changed the face of peace protests in this country. And we were your allies. The US has precious few enthusiastic allies in the Middle East and its presence in the form of military bases is a provocation, a running sore to many. The claim that the US has to strike back "in self-defence" by bombing weapons dumps in Syria would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. The US is there to protect its own interests, and its biggest interest in the region is propping up Israeli regimes, however bad they are, and there have been none worse than this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Oct 23 - 06:40 AM The Labour mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has called for a ceasefire. That's very revealing of a significant split in Labour apropos of its policy regarding how this war should be conducted and it puts Starmer on the back foot, deservedly in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Oct 23 - 01:13 PM From your Time piece: The Hamas massacre that took place over the weekend was not the result of decades of “occupation.” Israel left Gaza in 2005, uprooting families and wrenching the country into an impassioned debate along the way. Not a settler, nor single IDF soldier, nor any type of Israeli personnel has remained in the Gaza Strip. What gobsmacking misrepresentation this is. Just because settlers, etc., left Gaza in 2005 (on the orders of their regime, by the way), it doesn't mean that Gaza has not, in effect, been "occupied." It has been blockaded ever since, it has been invaded at will by the IDF, its civilians have been slaughtered in their thousands and its economy has been trashed via Israeli-imposed sanctions. Not only that, its infrastructure has come under frequent military attack, hospitals, schools, power stations, water treatment plants, villages, the lot. There have been constant crises of water, power, medical and food supply, by no means not all of that caused by Hamas (before you say anything). In addition, when Israel "left" Gaza in 2005 they didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts - as they left they trashed the place, bulldozing villages and infrastructure. Just a little reminder that the two million-plus citizens of Gaza, collectively punished for sixteen years, are NOT Hamas. Finally, the piece starts with a complete and dismal denial of the history of the region. That's what Israeli regimes and their supporters always do: whenever it's raised they shout it down as though we're all indulging in antisemitism and blood libel. Well, the history IS quite embarrassing, I suppose. Further down the piece there's a healthy smattering of Islamophobia. I won't go on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Oct 23 - 04:38 PM "Israel's response has come in for criticism because there is a basic understanding, or hope, or desire, that Israel can behave more 'humanely'" But Israel doesn't. It never has. What measure would you like to use? Deaths of civilians? Children? Evictions? Bulldozing of villages? Discrimination? As I keep saying, the history is not just important: ignore it and you simply can't understand. Israeli regimes would like us to sideline the history. We shouldn't be fooled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 26 Oct 23 - 11:29 AM Even those of us who are trying to keep an open mind and are concerned about the innocent victims on both sides of the conflict still have to base our judgment on what is shown by the media. What we don't know is how much the media news is biased towards one side or the other, and even in the case of impartial reporting, how much access to what is actually going on has been allowed. We do not know to what extent, if any, media news coverage is being manipulated or controlled to support their side of the conflict. I am not a conspiracy theorists by any means, otherwise I would be firmly believing that the BBC is part of both a Zionist and and Islamic Fundamentalist conspiracy at one and the same time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 08 Oct 23 - 10:16 AM The USA is trapped into 'unwavering support' of Israel, no matter what the situation. Granted, it is easier when an attack like this occurs, but if Biden had even hinted at suggesting "they shouldn't have been surprised after the way they treated the Palestinians.", his hopes of being re-elected would be toast! Big mistakes were made in 1948 in a rush to compensate Jews for the atrocities of the Holocaust. Now, after 75 years, there's little that can be done. The Palestinians can't *win* this, and I expect they know it, but a trapped and wounded animal will eventually react violently. I am so sad for all of those on both sides who suffer because of unyielding leaders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 09 Oct 23 - 09:14 AM "Yet the Israeli regime has no compunction in punishing every single citizen of Gaza." Yes, they are responding as if Gaza as a whole is guilty.... but it's hard to imagine how else they could have done it. Hamas probably knew what would happen when they planned this stupidity. Many Germans were against Hitler, but they were bombed too. Electricity, water and food... and munitions.... have to come into Gaza from outside, and Israel can control most of it. Iran can't email more rockets to Hamas. The early reports say that there has been not only murder, but savage, horrible mutilation of victims where Hamas fighters have been. This alone would cause Israel to pull very few punches in retaliation. They are trying to because they don't know where captives are being held. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 09 Oct 23 - 11:42 AM A mountain to climb... with hairpin turns and rock falls. We can only *hope* that most other counties show restraint until Hamas wears thin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 10 Oct 23 - 01:48 PM What Israel did to provoke Hamas was not much above Bear baiting If you taunt and restrain a dangerous adversary long enough, its rage and frustration will come out...somehow...., and usually in an unpleasant way. Yes, Hamas acted not only like terrorists, but like barbarians. We can't read the minds of those who planned this attack, but sometimes a violent reaction is merely rage and a desire to inflict suffering. Hamas may have no real hope of 'solving' anything, but maybe they no longer care. I kinda doubt that a 2-state solution has much chance now... if it ever did after 1948. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 10 Oct 23 - 01:57 PM "Even though Israel gave up control of the Gaza Strip, it has kept a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007. The result has been damaging for Palestinians, with the United Nations saying in 2009 that the blockade from both Israel and Egypt had been “devastating livelihoods” and causing gradual “de-development” in Gaza. Israel has argued that the blockade has served to keep control of Gaza’s border, prevent Hamas from getting stronger and protect Israelis from Palestinian rocket attacks." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 11 Oct 23 - 12:14 PM "If there's a God, he isn't in Israel or Gaza." If there is a god, he would have made sure that everyone had access to that Temple Mount spot! 3 religions arguing over it makes for an interesting situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:07 PM This is not the evacuation of a city. It's the evacuation of half of Gaza so that Israel can destroy it. The Israeli regime wants there to be nothing left for the million-plus evacuees to go home to. Well, Steve, this 'may' be the case, but I don't read minds. Declaring that as fact is a little premature. I hope it is NOT the case, but I'll wait. Obviously, the damage done to Gaza, no matter what the political outcome will not leave much of a great place to live. IF you are right, a very large number of Palestinians will need to move to the West Bank, Jordan... or any state that will have them. This entire attack by Hamas reminds me of the idea of Suicide by Cop that desperate men sometimes choose. It is just sad that they inflicted it on the population in general. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:26 PM Our remote ancestors automatically adopted the idea that "to the victor goes the spoils" and "Do unto others before they do unto you." I think it is hard coded into our DNA, and it takes a real effort to see that it's not the best choice in today's society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 16 Oct 23 - 01:06 PM "That fight was over a long time ago" Exactly, Steve. My comment about where Palestinians will "need to go", does NOT assume that will be easy..or even possible. Of course all obvious destinations are already overcrowded, and no 'supervising entity' now exists to declare a Palestinian state anywhere in the Middle East such as was done for the Jews in 1948. Right now, I'm not sure that even Israel has a clear plan for what they intend to do in the next few months. As I said, I don't read minds. They are sure of a few things they DON'T want, but that's hardly a working plan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 23 - 09:00 AM When all of this began, I had 'some' opinions about culpability. Now I simply can't fathom it all. Too many 'incidents' and too many deaths, with human suffering on a scale that can't be measured. Politicians will pontificate, hotheads will protest, soldiers will *follow orders* and blame will be shared. As with all wars, the shooting & bombing will eventually, if not totally stop, then become isolated instances..... and memorials will be created as families... those that can... try to carry on. I won't live long enough to see the semi-ultimate resolution of borders and power centers, and it's just as well, as it won't be fair to ANY side. I don't pray, so I can only watch and be saddened at what we humans do. Further, deponent sayeth not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 23 - 09:13 AM " We know that death always works when it comes to changing behavior." We don't KNOW any such thing. If you mean about the ones dead, it's a tautology, as the dead no longer have any 'behavior'. "We know what doesn't work like; pacts, treaties, extortion, big lies, financial penalties etc." Actually, some of those DO work, depending on the situation. Slogans and ambiguities don't tell us anything new. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 23 - 07:22 PM I was told by a friend many years ago that the conflict in Ireland was "not about religion". My reply was that "Perhaps, but when someone wants to make a violent statement about things, they know which church to target." "Causality" is a complex concept, but is some senses a remote ideological (religious) difference can be a very significant force in determining future events. (look up "remote cause", "formal cause", "final cause" and "material cause") Donuel makes a minor point this time, even though neither side is debating theology. Steve is right on the mark as to the actual history of offenses by both sides. After a while, it it true that simple border fights and 'revenge' color ALL aspects of the situation. Who supports each side often ends up being political. The areas of Gaza and Israel are coveted by more groups than can possibly be reasonably be accommodated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: gillymor Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:31 PM Correction, BW- Thoroughly corrupt ‘Murdering Arse-hole’. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Oct 23 - 10:49 PM Oh, fuck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Oct 23 - 08:06 PM My nephew lives in Jerusalem. 5th child will be delivered by planned c-section Monday. They think nobody will blow up Jerusalem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 16 Oct 23 - 10:23 AM Trump was a symptom, not a cause. I do not support Israel's right to wxist where others were already existing. Never did. Yes, mom was a Holocaust survivor. She didn't, either. Nor do I support the actions Hamas is taking, Never did. Armies slaughtering civilians is a war crime. I have no answers. I have no questions. My ortho-er-than-ortho nephew, in Jerusalem, 's wife just had their 5th baby today. A boy. I worry. It is not constructive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 23 - 08:09 PM "Intelligence" thinks the hospital blast was friendly fire... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Oct 23 - 07:12 PM It being religious was too obvious to state. Sigh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Oct 23 - 07:45 AM Nothing religious? Israel? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Oct 23 - 08:04 AM Israel is a jewish state. It *defines* itself by religion, and only religion. It was carved out of a place other people already lived and and had a different religion, without asking them, so that the jewish religion would have a nation. The US, despite the right's efforts, is not. However, we do appear to be shootin' in this war. Was that authorized? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:35 PM Hamas released 2 hostages |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Oct 23 - 02:20 PM I reposted a song I am trying to learn only the other day. One verse is referring to another war in the middle East but some things never change "But our friend was only money; it was greed that brought us here For there's billions to be made from selling weapons, peddling fear And our governments denounce that they are playing age old games They didn't know, it wasn't them, they're not to blame" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Oct 23 - 08:06 AM It's all about money and power. The religious aspect is the religious leaders using their sway over people to gain themselves more money and power. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Oct 23 - 03:48 PM It would be an even greater improvement if everyone would stop trying to score petty points from what is a tragic situation |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Oct 23 - 04:20 PM The post does say "from today's Guardian live feed" which, for those who do not know, is a transient feed. Try Google and I'm sure that your doubts will be assuaged. Now, can we return to the point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:11 PM Nigel. Once again, it was clearly stated that it was a news feed. Do you ever see news feeds? They are one liners. Quite often unrelated. Now, do you have anything to say about Gaza? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Oct 23 - 08:50 AM As always I see some excited fans of war going down dark alleys. On here, Don? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Oct 23 - 10:33 AM Daughter in law and grandson are the Salford demo protesting about the BBC complicity with Israeli crimes. Good on 'em! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Joe_F Date: 10 Oct 23 - 06:54 PM "It all started when he hit me back." If you followed the news before the current "war", you must have noted that scarcely a day passed without the Israeli army or settlers killing some Palestinians. If by a solution you mean an outcome that is politically possible and that decent people might wish for, then this problem has no solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 11 Oct 23 - 01:51 PM I have no words of balm here. It is a living nightmare full of humans displaying how utterly cruel yet predictable they can be when their thinking is pre-structured by rites. At the same time, it is important for us to stay aware and not just hope, but think and speak. And we MUST also hope, because we are in an age where the solutions are all around us, but the tools we employ can be used against us as well, even with the best of intentions. Maybe especially with the best of intentions. This is all just generalized crap and I know it. But it's the best I can do just now and I thought with such a moderate amount of moderate messages I owed it to say something no matter how unworthy. I've seen and been in way worse threads on this subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 12 Oct 23 - 06:07 PM It's the bloody battle of body counts. Played in Europe for hundreds of years, currently in every country of the Middle East, Africa, the Near East, and recently re-opened in Ukraine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 13 Oct 23 - 12:33 PM I agree that this thread has been an exceptionally well modulated thread, I suspect with some help from moderation. I am not familiar with the song reference but I'll listen to it. My own reference is Stan Rogers' "House of Orange." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 17 Oct 23 - 04:08 PM I would like that to be true. I have few comments to make here because people are making good ones that I can't significantly improve on. I think Biden is performing well. I think Blinken is performing VERY well. But I don't have a sense of progress. Just a sense of horrible dejas vu with a little bit of dejas new which is horrible. I know that progress is possible. But possible ain't yet 'probable'. And too few of us have a vision of what progress looks like. For me it has been that Irish saying (or a saying from a book I bought in Eason's in Dublin many years ago): "It's handy when people don't die." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 18 Oct 23 - 02:33 PM Much as I love these guys, Steve is getting into his pseudo virtuosity corner, which has nothing new to offer, and Don'l is digging into his deepity nook, although I always enjoy a good TOM LEHRER link. I disagree with Don'ls point that "The mutual assured destruction of war is a lesson still unlearned." There's a valid quote "Only the dead have seen the end of war." There's also this recent movie: "OPPENHEIMER" which has a pretty good version of the original atomic explosion Trinity test. That 'lesson' had as its point that technology has led to the end of heroism. Among the many many sublessons we have been exposed to is that mankind will still put up with an immense amount of killing, from the death factories of the Holocaust to the simple machetes of Rwanda. Our species will not waste even the prospect of a minor advantage in arms, tactics, geography, or timing in shedding blood. But lay an atom bomb or two down and even the biggest death dealers will take a decades long pause. So Don'l's observation is to date the most timely, but my outlook unfortunately is the current reality: "There will be peace in the Middle East after we have exhausted the other alternatives. And, let's not make nuclear one of the alternatives. I think if we're not 'there' we're damn close. I don't have much more to say since I'm as repetitive as my digital forum friends. But I may find my copy of the 50s version of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and watch it all the way through. Wonder if there's a couple versions with subtitles that read right-to-left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 18 Oct 23 - 07:05 PM Steve: I have long considered you thin-skinned. It is okay but it weakens your positions, when you make them. I agree that this occasion does not necessarily betoken going nuclear. But I think the issue raised its head under existing comments and I thought I was bringing some relatively realistic philosophy to the issue. As to what you mean by 'news' you need to be more specific. But I'll say right now that I might not be believing things marketed as 'news'. In particular if you want to talk about competing dead baby counts, my stomach will literally not allow me to go there. And I agree with Hitchens obsrvation: "That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 19 Oct 23 - 01:15 PM I heard that NPR interview with David Kirkpatrick and found it similarly interesting. It is available in text here. The article headline and most of the interview was regarding some important background U.S. politics and the Middle East stuff comes up more than halfway down but it's easy to find and I haven't heard the specific subject come up anywhere else. When one interviews the 'evil enemy' one has to be careful, circumspect, and get one's journalistic ducks in a row. This was done well, and was most likely a lot harder than it appeared. First rate journalism which is still available in this era to those who care. I had meant to mention a very good one hour special by PBS called "War in the Holy Land". Both good as a background article and a 'filler-in' article. Should be available over the internet or via their app. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 19 Oct 23 - 06:36 PM Yeah, again with the virtuosity, Steve. Your own prejudice is showing, because this is your existing argument from other threads and other times. You are doing this to yourself and this thread. Case in point, you are so one-sided that in your latest point you mention displaced Arabs, but NOT the displaced Jews from beyond Europe, but other Arab lands. Not only that, but the Arab states around Israel form majoritarian states which have persecuted their minorities, and are universally corrupt or hostile to democracy. Also, whether or not Israel deserves defensible borders, which I think we can all understand is going to be a sine qua non going forward. If you were honest with yourself and the rest of us, you would back off the insistence that you are not being religiously judgmental. I think it is inherent in your words and arguments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: robomatic Date: 19 Oct 23 - 09:33 PM I just watched President Biden's address from the Oval Office. I think he hit the right notes at the right times. I liked his bringing up the senseless murder of six year old Wadea Al-Fayoume and the cautionary notes of reaction to violence begetting poor decisions. I still think this thread has been an improvement upon others covering the subject in the past. I think there is some decrepitating on fixed positions/ judgmments which I am not going to address because then this thread will look like past threads of repetitive bombast. Good luck to all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel From: Donuel Date: 08 Oct 23 - 07:59 PM I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield Down by the riverside, down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield Down by the riverside and study war no more When you treat folks like stinking shit You're bound for a great big hit, bound for a great big hit bound for a great big hit I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield I'm not gonna cheer on or study war no more. |
