Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 12:06 PM

"Until guilt has been proven."

as individuals members have been found guilty of crimes against the stae, in some cases prior to the founding of the BNP.

Are they guilty of anything as a collective entity(the BNP)? Nothing has been proven as of yet, therefore.

Until guilt has been proven.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM

Until guilt has been proven, innocence must be pressumed, regardless.

It's not exactly Sherlock Holmes. Griffin claims that the 1976 law doesn't apply to the BNP because it's a "membership association" as defined in clause 26 of the legislation. However, what clause 26 says is that the exemption applies

if the main object of the association is to enable the benefits of membership (whatever they may be) to be enjoyed by persons of a particular racial group defined otherwise than by reference to colour

In other words, to claim exemption Griffin has got to argue that the main object of the BNP is to give its members the benefits of membership - not to give other people the (debatable) benefits of being governed by them.

To go back to my shoplifting example, if I see someone cut off a security tag and walk out without paying, I don't need to await the outcome of a court case to conclude that that person's broken the law - and if they told me it was OK because they belonged to the British Shoplifting Party, I'd conclude that their party was working on the wrong side of the law. The evidence that the BNP, collectively, is on the wrong side of race relations law is really hard to ignore.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM

Rifleman;

"The membership pays their dues therefore the membership has the right to make policy."

That is exactly my point. Get the membership opened up, the anti-fascist / racist movement is standing ready to join up en masse and then democracy will take its course. There is nothing dictatorial about this - it is simple democracy.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 02:31 PM

"The membership pays their dues therefore the membership has the right to make policy."

I've said this once already but I'll try again. The BNP is not a democracy. It is an autocracy in that, irrespective of the democratic wishes of the membership, the person who ultimately decides what goes is Nick Griffin.

In any event, even if we infiltrated the BNP, which must be somewhat akin to climbing down a sewer while it's being used, and changed it, the hard core of fascists would simply leave and set up something else just as nasty.

The only way to drive the BNP out of existence is to make the people they claim to represent realise just what they're dealing with; a nasty bunch of totalitarian fascists, who are hell bent on finishing off the job which Hitler started.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 02:35 PM

BNP democracy in action.

Is that the sort of debate you want to sign up for?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 03:34 PM

Royston, lead the way and sign up...lead by example I believe the phrase is, except don't expect me to join you.

"I've said this once already but I'll try again. The BNP is not a democracy"

Yeah we heard you the first time! Some are good a saying but not much good at doing.

I prefer the doing part, but without all the hysteria.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 05:30 PM

Rifleman, look at the big picture. If the BNP wishes to have the benefits of being treated as a "political party", it must comply with the law. Once it does that, it can be destroyed from within.

To borrow your phrase, walk a mile in Royston's moccasins.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 05:56 PM

Are we back to this "let's talk with them" bullshit? Keriste. You think you can reason with Nazis? WAKE UP!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:01 PM

Peace, I hate the way the BNP and "BNP-lite" political groups are insinuating their vile ideals into people's conciousness by pretending to represent the British people. I love Britain and am proud to be British, but I can't, in any way, equate that with being racist or anti-Europe. I'm as proud to be British as I am proud to be European, or a member of the human race.
By co-opting English (let's face it - the BNP don't even care about the Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish) traditions as their own they hope to con the British public into thinking that the BNP aren't a racist, fascist, bigoted, hateful organistation. The sad thing is, the British public are falling for it. 1 in 10 of voters is 1 too many. The recent European elections shows their sympathisers are more than 1 in 10.
Failure of the main political parties should be no excuse for people to resort to supporting fascists. That's just so way beyond sad, it's criminal.
Stand up to fascism, wherever you see it...you'll never be wrong.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:48 AM

Hilarious story in the Western Mail.

One element of the BNP's defence against race relations legislation is that its constitution doesn't actually bar non-whites - it's a party for " persons of a particular racial group defined otherwise than by reference to colour", to use the language of the 1976 Act.

Here's Nick Griffin on Channel Four News: "Our legal counsel says that it is very clear that we are a Section 25/ Section 26 exempted organisation because we are here for specific ethnic groups.

"It is nothing to do with 'white'. We are really talking here about the English, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh, collectively the people who are ethnically British."

He was asked if that meant a Black Welshman could join, to which he replied:

"There is no such thing as a black Welshman. You can have a black Briton; you can't have a black Welshman."

Nothing to do with 'white', eh? Really, the BNP couldn't have a better leader.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM

Royston, I understand what you are saying and have total sympathy with your aims. With the best will in the world, however, I really don't think it is going to happen. Even if you could take over the 'democratic' processes of the BNP, these people would still exist and peddle their filth. The BNP is the 'legal' iceberg of the racist movement – a much bigger portion exists below the surface.

I can draw an analogy with something I have been involved in trying to stamp out: foxhunting/dog fighting/ badger baiting. Pretty much the same people are involved in all these activities and whilst it is easy to protest about the first – the public face of a bloodthirsty brigade - and engage in public debate, it is very dangerous to try to infiltrate the organisations that control the other two aspects. Like the racists, they are violent in the extreme, seem often to escape the law and are highly organised. Believe me, it would take some guts to infiltrate the inner core of the racist movement (although I'm sure it is being done) and then there has to be a very clear agenda and plan of action.

The BNP is where the racist boil erupts and the pus emerges to the surface – and can be dealt with. Without that, the infection could spread even more virulently.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 04:19 AM

THe problem with the 'legal' aspect is that unless it is kept under scrutiny, slice by slice the underlying nastiness will be given ligitimacy, i.e. without the 'legal' bit, the BNP are no more than a collection of racist, neo-nazi/fascist thugs.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

After reading about the Steadfast Trust, and the Anglo Saxons, I am wondering about a group called "an gesithas engliscas" I came across at Tenterden many years ago. There was a local man who dressed up and lectured, accompanied by his wife, whose costume looked more Hollywood than authentic, and I was interested, but did not attend, and then decided not to when I saw that their aim was to "preserve the Anglo-Saxon way of life" which rang bells that did not alert me to re-enactment and such like.

I wonder what the Boys Brigade thinks about the use of steadfast - I know they spell it differently.

I would be very suspicious about Odinism - there used to be a book in my local library about it, or rather the origin of races, put in their proper locations by the will of Odin, emphasising that they should stay there. It was self published in typescript, and I used to slip it down the back of the stack whenever I saw it. It was filed in the science section, close to to the book proving the Colorado Canyon was the prodect of the Noachian Flood.

Penny

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM

I was hoping we might be able to talk to MBS GEORGE[The BNP candidate for Chippenham],she started by making an announcement of her political views,and then refused to discuss her views,a sure sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 06:50 AM

"Hilarious story in the Western Mail."

I really dug the reader's comment at the end of that piece.

"So Nick Griffin thinks that 'there's no such thing as a black Welshman', does he? That pretty much leaves out all those who worked down the pit, then."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM

"Once it does that, it can be destroyed from within."
Oh for godsakes stop dreaming!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

up to 666 the sign of the devil!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

Likewise, this "Guest" character, seems err just that..
He/It appears to be presuming some understanding of Riflemans experience, in order to instigate division, where nothing but discussion is occuring?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

Sorry that WAS me, cookieless for a brief period. and I stand by what I say.....nothing but discussion you say..oh dearie dearie me...

My suspicions of this Royston remain as they are.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM

Fair enough.
The Royston character is a sound guy. That's why I piped up.
But we do need to be alert to trolling and fraudulent ID's.
It's worth considering that the 'nice' folk scene we enjoy, won't be that way forever if the BNP gain a foothold amongst us...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM

I suspect the BNP will never cross the pond. Of course, we have our own problems over here.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 01:26 PM

"The Royston character is a sound guy"

Hate to disappoint you, Crow Sister, I've advised through a Mudcat PM, that a poster on the FaF facebook site has been posting as "Rifleman Royston", and this AFTER I questioned the sincerity of the poster to this thread, Royston.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fumblefingers
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM

What exactly is BNP and what does it profess? Is this new movment for uncontrolled immigration by third world nationals or what?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM

basically F.F, the BNP are bully boys who have started wearing suits and ties in order to get respectibilty in UK politics.

they hate all minorities, the biggest hate being people of colour.
they think that white english are the best peoples ever to walk the earth and think if this country was all white, all our troubles would be over.

pretty much every member has been arrested for either violence or incitment of racial hatred.

they have many firm links with the KKK, combat 18 and the national front, all of which are extremely violent.

NOW they are TRYING to say that by supporting traditional ENGLISH/BRITISH folk music that we must all think like them.... UTTER BULSHIT!!! but hey, thats why we love 'em!!

hope this helps as a shortcut to any new people joining us, as it takes SO long to read 600 odd posts.

take care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: fumblefingers
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 10:51 PM

Jeddy,

Thanks

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:39 AM

Just thought I'd refresh as it's been a bit quiet on here and fumblefingers put it all in a nutshell for any new viewers.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM

Well Rifleman, Crow Sister knows me personally as do many of the UK contingent here, Richard Bridge has known me 25 years. I have the intelligence and wit not to be on bookface in any way shape or form whatever - real or assumed identities. My political credentials are impeccable. Royston is my name. WTF are you?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM

I'm sorry to bring another contentious issue into this already muddled and tetchy debate, but Royston raises a very important point.

Folk Against Fascism is nothing if not a struggle for truth.

Am I alone in finding it, err, ironic that so many here are standing up to be counted - in disguise?

If ever there was a case for real names in real situations this is it.

Please people - disagree about details by all means, but don't use that disagreement to cast the other guy as your enemy.

Face The Front, ok?


Please

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:45 PM

Just to confirm that lots of people on Mudcat and on the folk scene can vouch for Royston.

What's important is that the BNP (presumably) strategy of imitating Mudcat ID's is ignored as far as possible - *apart from* advising the Facebook Admin, or relevant parties by PM of course. Its purpose is to generate division and doubt.

Thus it's not in our interest to discuss such matters here IMO - as it'll obviously only encourage more of the same... Before giving any credence to the spamming, better to clear up any identity doubts or confusions, via PM to admin or other known reliable members IMO.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

Once there is an FaF organisation properly sorted, I'll become a real human member with name and address and DNA if necessarily available to those who actually need to know.

Richard Bridge uses his own name and photograph - and the spam on Facebook is now using err his name and photograph. Lots of people now have to be advised that Richard Bridge isn't a BNP supporter and pervert..

Meanwhile I'm not going to feel pressured into doing anything different on a chat forum like this, because of annoying spamming on another site I'm not even a member of.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

because i use the same name here as i do FB, i assume that the idenity theif thinks that it will be too obvious to nick mine, since the photo with it is me and the other half looking like you wouldn't want to be left alone with us, maybe that is the reason.

i think the way to go is, if you are unsure come here and use PMs.

it is good that we are all too aware how easy it is to setup a page somewhere else in someone elses name, this makes us suspisious, but as long as we keep our wits about us... WE WILL CONQUER!!

stand together and no one can devide us.

tkae care all

jade x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM

Oh, please don't tell the sheep at Knockholt that I am not a pervert! They will be so disappointed.

But, Rifleman, you are being very silly if you think the Royston here is anyone other than the real Royston. His politics are sound. You are an enigma. Every so often you say something really sensible - and then you say something totally daft.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:20 AM

Read the article on page 3 of today's (29th June) The Guardian entitled Racist, threatening - and beyond the law. Procecutors call for action on BNP leaflets.

It has not reached the on-line version of the newspaper at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ yet but it should do in the next few hours.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:52 AM

Rifleman, you've got it SO wrong. Royston is exactly who he says he is, and it's obvious to me that 'Rifleman Royston, is but another of those BNP bastards to try and 'divide and conquer'. The same outrageous thing happened to Richard Bridge. It's pretty obvious that it is some odious arsehole who reads Mudcat on a regular basis or maybe even a contributor. 'Daily Mail Reader' comes to mind who was so cowardly that he/she/it hid behind a GUEST name. 'GUEST-Scum of the Earth' would have been a much more fitting way to sign in.
I'll repeat - Royston would never have done this.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:08 AM

brian, kev and val and marion have all been dragged into this too.
i don't know if they are real but go to the nags head if that exists.

the message was from joanie ' large pair' crump.

why would anyone waste their time in this way?????????????????
i am hardly likely to take any notice, but am worried that if these people exist, they might get some flack for it.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 08:28 AM

Jeddy, I think it would be helpful to many of us to see the entire message that you got. The apparent linkage to the Nag's Head is possibly significant.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Royston
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM

It seems quite clear to me that the agitators are one or both of only two card-carrying fascists that I know of and which also lurk on this forum as Guests / Readers and perhaps under other registered names. Some others may also be thinking along similar lines but I do not intend to propose names as it cannot be proven completely (unless someone can provide me with actual emails (including all headers) from these people and also the IP addresses of their posts to forums.

It's all very childish but then it is meaningless to me as I do not use any networking sites, because they are just chock-full of trolls and fascists. It's like the Guardian "Talk is Free" site, but even more pointless.

As an anti-racist / anti-fascist activist, I've learned to let "them" have these pointless forums. By staying off them altogether, anyone who matters will always know that any bookspace or myface activity with my name must in fact have been done by the fascists.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

I have sent the following message to the website "Digg".

"Sir

The Digg user "HoffBridge" is unlawfully impersonating me. He is using a photograph of me for his identity, without the permission of the copyright owner. My name is Bridge, and a nickname by which I am sometimes known is "Hoff".   His postings, thus using my name and likeness, in support of the loathsome and racist BNP (British National Party - rather like the American Klu Klux Klan) are intended to and do carry the defamatory implication that I am a member of the BNP and a racist.

I require you to remove his identity and all of its postings from the site.

If I do not hear from you within 7 days agreeing to my demand, I am likely to bring legal proceedings against you without further notice. I am a solicitor.

All of my rights are hereby reserved.

RIchard McD. Bridge"

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

I was going to put something similar as a note on all of HoffBridge's posts, but the website is so slow and clunky that it would have taken decades.

I might try early tomorrow morning when the KKK are between their white silken sheets (in stead of wearing them), and the BNP still under their stones...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM

"His politics are sound....."

by whose standards?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 01:43 PM

Walk another mile in your moccasins, as you claim, and while doing so, think.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

OK Rifleman - try this. His politics are his to know. However, his denunciation of the BNP and what is stands for are clear and unmistakeable. I know Royston personally, and KNOW this to be the truth. Yours is just conjecture as you don't appear to have met him. How about lightening up?
John Barden

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM

"Walk another mile in your moccasins, as you claim, and while doing so, think."

I've walked further than you'll ever know and further than you'll you'll ever do, I don't have tio justify myself especially to you, your politics are not my politics and never will be.

You're right it is conjecture...I'll play wait and see.

"How about lightening up?"

I,ve said all I need to say on this and other matters regarding this FaF organisation

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:07 PM

I,ve said all I need to say on this and other matters regarding this FaF organisation
WRONG - you've said all you've wanted to say - there's a great big gaping hole between NEED and WANT. Tell that to the starving, the disposessed, and the repressed. They know the difference, which you don't appear to.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

"Tell that to the starving, the disposessed, and the repressed. They know the difference, which you don't appear to"

Don't EVER preach and me Barden, I've seen, felt, and experienced all of your ravings and more!!

Repressed, YOU don't even know the meaning of the word, sunshine, and I doubt you could EVER begin to conceive of the meaning.
so on yer bicycle!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:19 PM

I wondered when you would stoop to that. I WILL preach to you whenever I feel the NEED, as you put it. You don't know me, but if you want to I'm about to PM you my details. Please reciprocate, and we can carry on whatever slanging match you feel you need to without this board.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM

Details PM'd
John Barden

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM

I've noticed a couple of threads from our favourite Guests seeking information about potentially racist or at least racially 'sensitive' subjects. There are of course excellent reasons to genuinely discuss such matters, yet when raised by Guests, there are obvious doubts about the veracity of such requests.

I'd suggest leaving obvious racists alone to do their own research into provocative songs, and let them entertain themselves by themselves, with their fascinating findings. I'd also like to request that the moderators keep a firm eye on such provocative Guest requests - but I expect that'd be quite futile.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:29 PM

I know the difference thanks, Barden, I've known it for alonggggg time, and no, I don't know you.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM

Oh and......The people that I feel NEED to know who I am already know....