BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Well, Royston, I would NOT echo what DeG said — see my last post, please. And Lizzie is not only talking about false accusations, but is fully engaging with what you state above to be the topic of this thread, & I can't help wondering as to your motives in attacking her for things she is not saying. I know many people find a lot of what she sez irritating; but this bland assumption you appear to be making that anything she sez can therefore be discounted and/or misinterpreted redounds v badly on you IMO. Before going for her again, or coming back at me about this, I would urge you to reread her last post WITH OPEN-MINDED ATTENTION,

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"So let me get this right...a woman can do, say, dress, behave, be sexually explicit and implicit in WHATEVER way she so chooses, but if a man reads the signs wrong and thinks she's 'up for it' to coin a romantic term, or 'gagging for a shagging' to coin an even more romantic term, then he's totally in the wrong, whilst SHE is totally in the RIGHT????"

If he can see she is drunk and not aware of her faculties then he should not act on the signals in any way. He really should show sense himself and walk. But some mem's dumbsticks do the walking into trouble all too easily.

I am not saying she is in the right to tease and entice with no will to follow through. I am saying she can change her mind and a drunken mind is very unreliable. Men know that too.

What is not right is that she should get raped for doing as she has. The man knows the difference in this case and maybe what he is risking too. They have a shared responsibility to each other over respect and dinity but beyond that she has a right not to be raped at all (and him for that matters)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Why would you be astonished?

I am the daughter of a man, the sister of a man, the mother of a man.

I have nothing to be ashamed of whatsoever, other than daring to stand up and say that some women are terribly wrong in how they behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

ok lizzie, you are never going to see sense, but here goes anyway.

one the one hand you say rape is never acceptable, but then go on to say it is invited and not the mans fault.

remember when you were young and experimenting? you cannot not have a line. that line says what you are comfortable with. when messing around when you are younger, is natural, but what you are saying is by starting any sexual behaviour is an open ivitation for sex.
no matter what.

ok, a silly comparison. at a festie a few years ago. we give people hugs and kisses on the cheek to people we know, when we haven't seen them for a while. one bloke, gave me a kiss, then licked the side of my face.

are you saying i should not have been upset because i had no right to draw 'the line' at a peck and a hug?

as for men having rights, of course they do! how stupid are you to think that i am not as disgusted as you when women make false accusations? it hurts everyone, the accuser, in case anything does happen in the future, the accused, his reputation, his self worth and his trust.
personally i think you are part of the reason society thinks the way it does about rape, you say one one hand it is outragous and barbaric, then justify it by saying that men are 'lead on'.

which is it lizzie?

i know that i shouldn't let you get to me, as you have no basis for thinking the way you do. you have no empathy for how we feel when you say such stupid, contradictory things. however on this subject as anyone might imagine i get rather passionate and will NOT let you make anyone feel bad or guilty for having had such a horrific experiance.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

Lizzie C, you ought to start a new thread.

We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them.

A discussion about women who make false accusations of rape, would be an entirely different topic.

As for your last question, about rights, I would echo everything that DeG said. I would add that I am astonished to read these things coming from a woman, however mad and silly you might be. You should be thorougly ashamed of yourself. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:03 PM

"But no matter what signals the women make it still gives no implied right to sex. The men also have choices there. Walk away or risk a rape charge."


Geez, thank god I'm a woman, because to be a man these days must be absolute hell!

So let me get this right...a woman can do, say, dress, behave, be sexually explicit and implicit in WHATEVER way she so chooses, but if a man reads the signs wrong and thinks she's 'up for it' to coin a romantic term, or 'gagging for a shagging' to coin an even more romantic term, then he's totally in the wrong, whilst SHE is totally in the RIGHT????

That's crap, imo.

If, as a woman, you're 'asking for it' by your volition, actually there, stark naked, having led a man on in the most explicit way, then I'm sorry, but you DO share some of the responsibility for what happens, because without your leading him on, without you explicit behaviour the man wouldn't be caught up in all of that in the first place....

I am NOT talking of men who deliberately set out to rape, but of men who become totally confused because a woman feels she has the right to string him along, like a toy, then throw him away when she's bored, or when she realises that he actually thought she meant what she said.

The solution is simple. Do NOT lead men on. Do NOT get blindarsed drunk. Do NOT think that the world revolves only around you and no-one else..and BE BLOODY RESPONSIBLE!




And yet again, before I'm accused of it, I am NOT condoning men who deliberately rape totally innocent women.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

"So, you see, men DO have rights too. They have a right to never be accused wrongly"

What a sad tale...

And Lizzie, far earlier in the thread I made mention of false accusers, that they should do the time that would have been given to the rapists had it happened. It is inexcusable and unforgiveable.

Sadly it happens a lot :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

I am sorry Dave ~ but I think that is a gross over-simplification. She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners ~ or to put it more simply, being fucking rude ~ in appearing to offer more than she is prepared to grant. YOU use the word 'provocatively' ~ you must know {I am sure Richard will back me up on this} that there are some breaches of the law where 'provocation' can be admitted as a mitigating factor even to an admitted offence. If the young woman whose Please·Spank·My·Bare·Bum t-shirt I described above had got a good ringing smack across her behind from a passing stranger, I can't see she would have had all that much to complain of: &, if charged, surely he could have claimed a degree of 'provocation' as part of his defence — she would have ~ LITERALLY ~ asked for it. Where is the 'provocation' {I reiterate, a word you yourself are happy to be employing here} line to be drawn?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

"Maybe some women need to stop and think far more deeply and remember that this world is filled with men too, who also have rights and one of those rights is that they too should be treated with respect and honesty.

The onus should be as much on the woman and *her* behaviour as it is on the man and his. "

Men have always had rights. No-one here is saying women should have more rights than men or that they should expect them. What is being asked for here is that *some* take charge of their willies and keep them under control. A man who predates on a woman who is drunk, who he knows he would have no chance with if she were sober, is not showing respect and he certainly has none for himself.

I quite agree with a lot you say Lizzie about women making a show of themselves by being drunk and lewd. But I maintain women can wear what they want and should be able to do so. It is their expression and if certain types of men see that as a contract to sex then they are being fools.

Most men are noit like that in any way, and many find drunken, loud mouthed, women unattractive. Rigghtly so. But no matter what signals the women make it still gives no implied right to sex. The men also have choices there. Walk away or risk a rape charge. To some their dumbsticks run their lives but most men are not in any way so low as to predate a woman who is obviously not in control.

So, if a woman is behaving badly, there is still no reason why a man cannot be chivalrous. Most I know are and would be. I am not a great lover of ladette behaviour myself but I will still not apportion blame to anyone who gets raped.

Rape is rape... the fault is the rapists NOT the victim

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Llizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

They also have a right to have their names withheld from the media, until the allegations against them are found to be true or not. I don't think, at the present time, that happens. I'm sure Richard will tell us where the law stands.

A woman who says she has been raped has automatic anonymity granted, but this is not so for those who have been accused...

Is that correct, Richard? Or has the law now been changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

And what of the cases where men have been wrongfully accused of rape and had their whole lives implode because of it? Is that not as devastating as what happens to a rape victim, but in a very different way....

BBC News - Men Wrongfully Accused of Rape

One of my friends had a husband who was wrongfully accused of having a relationship with one of his young pupils, at school. The accuser was the young girl herself. Her allegations were later proved false.

Paul was a history teacher, one of the nicest men you could ever wish to meet.

He hanged himself months later, from a tree, in Horrabridge, in a small clearing, just where the woods met the moorland. He'd left notes for the police, his family..he just couldn't cope with what had been thrown at him, the terrible lies.


So, you see, men DO have rights too. They have a right to never be accused wrongly. They have many other rights too, just as women do, but somewhere, those rights have become lost amongst the occasionally putrid lake of feminism which teaches women that they, and ONLY they are what is important in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

But men DO have the same rights as women, Lizzie. In just the same way that white people have the same rights as black people, christains have the same rights as Moslems and hetrosexuals have the same rights as homosexuals. It is EQUAL opportunities.

I can walk down the street in a skimpy T-shirt and showing my underwear if I wish. Although in my case it would be more a case of people wanting to through up than rape me... More seriously, I can go to a police station and accuse another person of assault or even, heaven forbid, rape, and I will be taken as seriously as anyone else.

The onus is not as much on the woman as the man. She is committing NO crime at all. She is doing no harm to anyone by dressing or behaving provocatively. Plase stop suggesting that any rape is in any way shape or form the victims fault.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM

"Well, many people might wonder why you wear face glitter and all that eyeliner and twirl around suggestively in front of bands when everyone else is sitting down and watching a concert, but is it their place to judge you?"

Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL

And you have this evidence from where, exactly? I'm only askin' 'cos apart from being dragged to the mosh pit in an Oysterband gig, by their lovely fans, I've never stood in front of any band and twirled, much less 'suggestively'. I mean, corks, have you SEEN my figure?! Since when was Pooh Bear 'suggestive' ? ;0)   Get a life, Joan and stop spouting outright lies, there's a good girl. Thanks.

Oh heck, so much hurt and hatred in this thread...and apparently I'm responsible for it all. Sorry, I don't accept that responsibility because over and again I've stated that rape is wrong, inexcusable.

However...and the women won't like this one, but I'm sorry, someone has to say it...However, if you are, as jade suggested, naked on the street, almost calling out for sex, and then you change your mind when some man steps forward to oblige, well, you don't have my sympathy I'm afraid, because you're a fool to put yourself into the position in the first place, let alone a selfish prat to put a man into that position.

But before I go, just tell me this. Do men have *any* rights? I hear, all the time, how women MUST be allowed to do whatever they want, dress however they want, behave however they want...but what I don't hear is how that behaviour affects men.

Has the world become ONLY about Women's Rights?

I am NOT talking about women, who, through absolutely no fault of their own, were raped. Nor am I talking about children, for heaven's sake...and for anyone to think that I would condone either of those situations being correct from the rapist's point of view fills me with revulsion and disbelief.

But in talking about the female population, in particular the younger generations (from 40 downwards) I feel they've become incredibly selfish and filled with their own self importance.

It is WRONG to lead men on. It always has been. And if, because you have chosen to do that, you get something happening to you that you never wanted, then you should be grown up enough to recognise that if you blatantly give out the message that you want sex (what happened to Love?) then change your mind at the last moment, you are putting yourself in a very stupid, and sometimes dangerous situation.

Yes, the man makes the final decision as to what happens there, if he dares to cross that line, but the fact is, that line should not have been laid down in the first place if you did not want it to go further.

Maybe some women need to stop and think far more deeply and remember that this world is filled with men too, who also have rights and one of those rights is that they too should be treated with respect and honesty.

The onus should be as much on the woman and *her* behaviour as it is on the man and his.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM

DeG asks... "I am in wholehearted agreement with the no means no lobby and there is no excuse whatsoever for rape. I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who?"

I guess that would depend if either party felt something wrong had gone on without their full consent or against express wishes. I dare say it happens and both decide to be adult about it and let it go. Where no force can be proven I suspect too that no case can be made. This is one that the CPS may not go for if it came up as a complaint.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM

I believe some here have never seen the site with candid photos of shoppers at Walmart. That girl's attire is moderate by these standards.The expression "trailor park trash" comes to mind. Tacky but not an invitation to rape.
And before anyone is offended, I do not believe that living in a trailor means one is trash. I am referring to the stereotype depicted on My Name Is Earl. Earl is to trailor park dwellers as Donald Trump is to the average businessman.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

"But do you not agree that it was a peculiarly provocatively ill-mannered way to go on? I can see where it might be intended humorously; but do you think it was funny, and in no circumstances likely to be misunderstood and have unfortunate consequence"

I think I would see it as a very cheeky thing to wear, and no, it doesn't fill me with joy to see young women sexually objectifying themselves. There are lots of cans of worms here, and not all 21st century feminists agree whether pornography, soft-porn, lad's mags, burlesque, page 3, lap-dancing, pole-dancing etc are empowering or undermining to women. I am definitely of the latter opinion, and I think it's extremely sad that we live in a society which encourages young women to define themselves through their sexuality - and keep in mind that I am the mother of a 16 year old girl, and I also work regularly in secondary schools, so I see the impact at quite close quarter on a day to day basis.

These girls are not making decisions in isolation - there are all sorts of factors in our society which have led us to this point. The normalisation of pornography has saddened me greatly, and I do think it is directly linked to the way that young women now dress in town centres on a Saturday night. But the notion that this is something to do with "girl power" and that these young women are solely responsible for some of their less than responsible choices pretty much lets us, as a society, off the hook. They are being manipulated through the marketplace into defining themselves through their sexuality and their physical assets, and if their physical assets are less than "perfect", they are encouraged to go to a doctor and ask him to mutilate their bodies by hoovering out a bit here and sticking in another bit there. This is now normal. And we are the ones who have stood by while it happened.

The industries that have created this culture, from lad's mags and tabloid newspapers to the fashion industry, are not run by naive, 18- or 20-year-old women; they are run by utterly mercinary old men whose only concern is turning a profit, and who are simply applying the age-old adage that sex sells.

What these girls wear may sometimes be shocking to people of our respective generations, but it is completely normal to them. I think that, instead of damning them for their choices and saying that it's pretty much understandable if they get raped, we ought to be addressing some of the more distateful trends in our society which are completely market-driven, and about which the average trollied babe out on the razz on a Saturday night hasn't a fucking clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

If someome looks like a slut or a hooker what is the problem? The inference on the way those terms are used perjoratively is palin to see. Moralising the way women dress says more about you than them.

Are so called sluts and hookers some kind of sub-species? They are still women and many do society a valuable service. Stop denigrating them with your own morals and using them as bad examples. So they sell sex or even give it away... they do not deserve rape as a punishment for other's moralising.

I also suspect that women - a great many - often wake up the next morning with regrets for how the night went before them. We were all young once. Some are still young now. The problem is not the dress. It's rapist.

Get the priorities right on the morals

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

Thanks, Jade - That really does mean a lot to me and it is much appreciated.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

DeG, yes it is a very serious subject, but humour is necessary.
it might just be me, but being flipant just shows it is humans we are talking about with emotions, not objects or possessions(?).

you are being flippant in a way that does not offend and makes me smile. lizzie is being flippant in a way that hurts others and makes them feel judged.

ake, i would really like to hear from you. has the analogy i used before, made any sense to you?

take care all
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM

Well, that is a fair opinion and I am sorry to have made you feel even uncomfortable. But do you not agree that it was a peculiarly provocatively ill-mannered way to go on? I can see where it might be intended humorously; but do you think it was funny, and in no circumstances likely to be misunderstood and have unfortunate consequence (which is, after all, is it not?, the point of this thread)? I would not have thought of 'confronting' her; but when I spoke of a 'virtual spanking', I meant some sort of advice from someone whose good opinion she might have valued, accepted without too much resentment on her part. If only...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM

Tons on here I'm skippping past to answer Bill D from way up there:

Erica Jong wrote about the "zippless fuck" in her book Fear of Flying, that fantasy you described, of being "taken." But when the opportunity arose in a train car during European travels, she found it totally revolting and kicked the anonymous member of this fantasy out on his arse.

I like her well-articulated views on a lot of things sexual. She also remarked, in a radio interview I heard a few years ago, that if she looked at pornography for 10 minutes, she wanted to have sex, but if she looked at pornography for 20 minutes, she never wanted to have sex again.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM

But why should I be blamed for my lack of thought when it is obviously you that is hurting me? Is it my fault that I am stupid? I think not...

(Sorry for the flippancy in such a serious subject but some things I just cannot resist:-) )

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

" nevertheless I would be thoroughly justified in accusing them of filthy manners."

As Del G say: if all we're talking about is you expressing your disapproval of someone's clothes or manners, fine. Personally, I don't think I would ever find myself on a position where I thought that a stranger's clothes were so offensive that they would ever provoke me to confront them, but in itself that's not a crime. But saying that a girl wearing the t-shirt you describe "deserved" some sort of punishment, spanking or otherwise, makes me uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

Sorry you were hurt Dave ~ but even on spur-of-moment I bet you could do better with a bit of thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

No, Ruth ~ & that, unlike DeG's, is a reasonable point. I didn't say his putative robbery with violence would be justified: just that his scenario was counter-productively unconvincing & ill-conceived.

In yours, mind you, tho I wouldn't be justified in assaulting, twocking, &c ~ nevertheless I would be thoroughly justified in accusing them of filthy manners. The young woman in the t-shirt deserved a spanking [or at least a virtual one: to judge by the fact that she had chosen to wear the stupid thing, she would probably have welcomed a real one!] for that, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM

Agreed MtheGM - I would indeed be asking for a spit in the eye. And if a spit in the eye was all we were talking about then fine - I would agree. But we are not talking spit in the eye. We are talking violent demeaning crime. The comaparison between waving money about and flashing your knickers well may be factious (Although I thought it was quite good on the spur of the moment - I'm hurt!) but the comparison of the end result is not. No matter what you have done to lead people on you do not deserve to blamed for the crime commited against you.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:16 AM

okay, MtheGM: say you were quite poor, and someone came driving down your street in a big, flash SUV. Say they got out, dressed to the nines, and paraded themselves down your street. Say they were being really flash with their cash, knowing they were minted and flaunting it.

Would you be justified in mugging them? Twocking their car? Brutally assaulting them and taking all their cash? Have they "asked for it" through their behaviour? Would society say that this was acceptable behaviour in any circumstance? So why is it very obviously a crime if it comes to a woman's possessions, but not when it comes to her body?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

So, if I was to come to your house, offer you thousands of pounds, wave a few crisp twenties under you nose, take you to the bank, draw out all the money, let you see it and then... Change my mind. You would be justified in robbing me with violence? I would like to see that stand up in court ===

But the point surely, DeG, is that YOU WOULDN'T; or if you did you would be fucking silly becoz you would be behaving with unutterable rudeness & making yourself an enemy into the bargain; so why TF would you? Even if not robbed with violence, you would be asking for a spit in the eye & never to be spoken to again.

I'm sorry ~ but that was a fatuous comparison ~ just was not an intelligent man's "What if" or "Just supposing"!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM

To me...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

On a slightly different tack: a neighbor's sone at twenty met a girl in a bar, took her home and had sex with her. Though she looked at least twenty, it turned out she was fifteen. Her parents had him arrested for rape. The girl was a willing participant.
He pled guilty to avoid jail time and now has to register as a sexual predator where ever he goes. When I moved into this house the first piece of mail I received was from the police that I was living next door to a rapist.
He is a nice kid just very foolish. His parents bear the brand as well.
o me, this is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:57 AM

I really do not need the kind of protection that Lizzie seems to offering us poor undertrod men but I think that our children need saving from the kind of nonsense that she seems to believe.

If you choose to dress like a whore, then you'll be viewed as one.

Does that mean that if you dress in the afore mentioned manner you will be paid for sex in a business like manner or does it mean that if you are a whore you deserve to be raped?

We seem to be educating them almost to tease, to dress like any rapists fantasy

Surely to dress like a rapists fantasy you would need to be meek and subdued, not bold and forward. Besides if every girl dresses in your prescribed manner what are us poor blokes who, by your own admission, are not all rapists, going to oggle at?

If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like.

So, if I was to come to your house, offer you thousands of pounds, wave a few crisp twenties under you nose, take you to the bank, draw out all the money, let you see it and then... Change my mind. You would be justified in robbing me with violence? I would like to see that stand up in court.

I coukd say that this is just plain nonsense but it is worse than that. It is downright dangerous. What if anyone reading this stuff had just undergone the trauma of a sexual assault and decided against reporting it because they felt they had dressed like a whore, indulged someone elses fantasies or led them on? What if because they decided to not involve the police someone else got attacked?

I do believe in freedom of speech but this really is shouting fire in a crowded theatre. I feel it should be stopped before any harm is done.


DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM

while it might be aceptable for a friend to come up and smack her bum, it is not ok for a stranger to.

although it is clearly an invite, it is not literal, open to everyone.
it is meant to be cheeky.

the same with thong straps, i always get an urge to go and ping them, no matter who it is wearing them.
it is one thing to get an urge or an idea, the worrying point comes when someone acts on it.
i am with whoever said, i don't like lasses wearing skimpy clothes, not for their saftey, but for their health, they must be feezing!!!
it all comes to personal responsibility and self control. yes people need to be aware of any danger, but, as others have said, just because someone has made a mistake in judgment, does not give anyone the right to take advantage.
there is no blame to the victims or rape. we did not choose it, or invite it. men are just as the rest of us capable of self control.

i do agree with one point of lizzies'. there are decent men out there who are outraged at this crime.

my word that hurt to say :)
x x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM

Royston - I take much of your point: but the t-shirt I quoted is one I actually saw a girl wearing quite recently — as best I recall, the full details were: on front, "I've Been Such A Naughty Girl" ~ on back, "... So Please Spank My Bare Bottom", with downward arrow pointing to the visible top of bum-cleavage. Whatever anybody sez ~ I don't think it wise for a young woman to disport herself thus clad.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM

Sinsull, Lizzie gets her 'facts' from misleading 'shock' headlines, misrepresentations and bad or pseudo 'pop science'

Far from thinking 'outside the box' she thinks no further than this.

To perpetuate such false claims in a forum is, like the journalist who exposed this abuse of research* said, with a sensitive subject such as rape, nothing less than ....

"blind, irresponsible foolishness."

* the one I quoted at 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Revelations
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM

I have spoken about being raped on this forum before. It was forty years ago and with professional help I got past the worst of the PTS. Several women from this forum have shared their experiences with me - two of us were attacked by strangers. The rest by people they knew. None was parading around like a whore or dressed suggestively. Again -the statistics show that most rapes occur in the home with the perpetrator known to the victim.

I haven't a clue where LC gets her facts. I suspect she doesn't either.

SINS, a Guest, not sure why.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM

I'll confess to have not read this entire thread but...

..."rape", to me, is a violent act peretrated on someone against their will...

That may not define every sexual act known to mankind but if it is "against their will", it's rape and therefore...

...never justified...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i47NAtcxEc

have a listen, then tell me, you are talking bollocks lizzie.
by the way, i think this is also very funny.
jade x

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

Above I quoted from Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape

"Blaming the victim" seems to be an all too prevalent reaction to acquaintance rape. Prominent authors have espoused this idea in editorial pages, Sunday Magazine sections, and popular journal articles."


For an extreme example of how the 'popular press', informs the views of people who read no further than the headlines and then ram their ill informed opinions down others throats, consider the following from last July.

The headline in the Telegraph read

"Women who dress provocatively more likely to be raped, claim scientists."

What was the truth behind this claim…….?

For starters the actual title of the press release for the same research was -

"Promiscuous men more likely to rape."

Ben Goldacre the author of the Bad Science website rang Sophia Shaw at the University of Leicester.

She was surprised to have been presented as an 'expert scientist' on the pages of the Daily Telegraph, as she is an MSc student, and this was her dissertation project.
Also it was not finished. "My findings are very preliminary," she said.
She had been discussing her dissertation at an academic conference when the British Psychological Society's PR team picked it up, and put out the press release

During the interview Goldacre was told that, every single one of the first four statements made by the Telegraph was an unambiguous, incorrect, misrepresentation of her findings.

Women who drink alcohol, wear short skirts and are outgoing are more likely to be raped?
"This is completely inaccurate," Shaw said. "We found no difference whatsoever.

The alcohol thing is also completely wrong: if anything, we found that men reported they were willing to go further with women who are completely sober."

She also added that
"We have found that people will go slightly further with women who are provocatively dressed, but this result is not statistically significant.
Basically you can't say that's an effect, it could easily be the play of chance.
I told the journalist it isn't one of our main findings, you can't say that.
It's not significant, which is why we're not reporting it in our main analysis."

Goldacre concludes that

"In any situation this type of coverage would be ridiculous, but with a sensitive subject such as rape, it is blind, irresponsible foolishness."

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM

MtheGM, there is only one place on earth where women are compelled to cover as you describe, and that is Sordid Arabia. Population affected: about 21m (men and women) So that's a fringe activity. They are not compelled by law to wear the Burkha, but I would accept that the cultural compulsion is difficult for most to resist.

Lizzie was actually damning all Muslims for their beliefs about modesty (beliefs that apply in large part to male dress and appearance), and here we find her arguing the opposing view.

It needs to be pointed out 'cos any minute now she will start saying that we are terribly unfair for not taking seriously anything she says. There are good reasons for our incredulity.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Any answer to the question I posed, Richard?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

Fortunately the English law is somewhat more forward looking.

And although I am surprised to see that Lizzie has forgotten her hormones (no pun intended) it is surely obvious that most people want to be attractive to their preferred gender, and frequently dress and behave to maximise the choice of offers that they may choose to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 AM

"rapists who deliberately set out to prowl the streets searching for their victims"

Lizzie I too am coming to the belief that you don't live in just some alternative world but are actually from another planet entirely

While 'stranger rape' does occur the majority of women are likely to be raped by someone they are acquainted with

For someone who invents their own mythical past maybe you are unaware of the attention that has been focused on the issue of 'acquaintance rape' which has emerged as part of the growing willingness to acknowledge and address issues associated with domestic violence and the rights of women in general in the past 30 years and are ignorant of the scholarly research done by psychologist Mary Koss and her colleagues which is widely recognized as the primary impetus for raising awareness.

The results of Koss' research were the basis of the book by Robin Warshaw, first published in 1988, entitled 'I Never Called it Rape'.


An attempt to address David's question of 04:56 AM also demands examining important legal decisions and changes in legal definitions of rape.

For example -
'Until recently, clear physical resistance was a requirement for a rape conviction in California.
A 1990 amendment now defines rape as sexual intercourse "where it is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury."
The important additions are "menace" and "duress," as they include consideration of verbal threats and implied threat of force

In addition, a prior or current relationship between the victim and the accused is not sufficient to imply consent. Most states also have provisions which prohibit the use of drugs and/or alcohol to incapacitate a victim, rendering the victim unable to deny consent.'

So, 'acquaintance rape' remains a controversial topic because of lack of agreement upon the definition of 'consent.'


David G. Curtis, Ph.D., B.C.E.T.S. writing on 'Social Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape' for the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress states

"Views on acquaintance rape also appear quite capable of creating opposing camps. Despite the violent nature of acquaintance rape, the belief that many victims are actually willing, consenting participants is held by both men and women alike.
"Blaming the victim" seems to be an all too prevalent reaction to acquaintance rape. Prominent authors have espoused this idea in editorial pages, Sunday Magazine sections, and popular journal articles.
It has also been implied that a natural state of aggression between men and women is normal, and that any woman who would go back to a man's apartment after a date is "an idiot."
While there may be a certain degree of cautionary wisdom in the latter part of this statement, such views have been criticized for being overly simplistic and for simply submitting to the problem."

The whole article
is well worth reading but to pick out just a couple more conclusions

"Being in familiar surroundings does not provide security. Most acquaintance rapes take place in either the victim's or the assailant's home, apartment, or dormitory."

"It is often expressed that direct and indirect messages given to boys and young men by our culture about what it means to male (dominant, aggressive, uncompromising) contribute to creating a mindset which is accepting of sexually aggressive behavior……
Buying into stereotypical attitudes regarding sex roles tends to be associated with justification of intercourse under any circumstances"

Koss's study of acquaintance rape on campus found taking drugs or alcohol is commonly associated with sexual aggression and, of the men who were identified as having committed acquaintance rape, 75 percent had taken drugs or alcohol just prior to the rape

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:02 AM

"The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly."

Where is your evidence of this? Emma B presented research earlier in the thread which demonstrates that dressing "provocatively" is not linked to the majority of rape cases.

"WHY would any woman want to walk around dressed in such a suggestive manner in the first place? It's always puzzled me."

Well, many people might wonder why you wear face glitter and all that eyeliner and twirl around suggestively in front of bands when everyone else is sitting down and watching a concert, but is it their place to judge you? Some people would consider that behaviour to be sexually provocative, attention-seeking and inappropriate. Does that mean any man has the right to decide that your behaviour implies that you are cheap and sexually available, and that you deserve to be raped? Of course not. But for someone who always screeches about their personal freedoms, you are terrible for wanting to curtail the freedoms of others.

This idea that your generation never dressed in a provocative way is ridiculous as well. Everything is relative. I'm sure your mother (or her friends) probably thought girls walking around in miniskirts in the 60s looked like prostitutes. Standards and fashions change through the generations, and what is acceptable in one generation is beyond the pale for another (usually older) one. Twas always thus. I don't particularly like seeing half-naked girls in town centres, but I worry more about them catching their death than provoking a man to rape them - and if they were attacked, I certainly wouldn't think they had brought it upon themselves simply for dressing the way they do.

And if we're collecting statistics re abuse, you can add me. I don't really want to go into the details of what happened to me here, but I can assure you that, as a 12 year old, I was neither dressed provocatively nor inviting assault. nevertheless, it took me more than 20 years to finally accept that what had happened to me WAS NOT MY FAULT, IN ANY WAY. Women who are attacked or abused often spend many years trying to figure out what they could have done to prevent what happened to them, and trying not to feel somehow guilty or complicit. The last thing we need is some bitter, gum-sucking old bat telling us how men get such a bad deal these days, and women bring everything upon themselves. Screw you, Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:56 AM

I am in wholehearted agreement with the no means no lobby and there is no excuse whatsoever for rape. I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:45 AM

it takes two

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM

The majority of Muslim women have respect for their bodies, for themselves. This is however changing as more and more young British Muslim women want to dress as their friends do, and I'd imagine it's a constant source of anxiety to their parents.


Whatever made you think that I'd imagine they'd go from Burkhas to Bras?

Whatever made you think that I'd imagine that Muslim women would start walking the streets with thongs hanging out above their jeans, or boobs pushed up to their eyebrows, using suggestive language and eyeing every man up and down in the most appalling 'ladette' fashion, whilst swigging from a wine bottle, or two?

You can dress beautifully as a woman you know, without showing your cleavage and bum.

Afghan women should have the choice of being free to do exactly that....and if they want to dress in a slightly more modern fashion then yes, they should be free to do that too, but if they suddenly start dressing like sluts, then they have to take on the same responsibility as western women should be doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:18 AM

Yup, lots of pain in this thread...but your cases are not the ones I'm talking about.


What is so worrying to me is that we are not educating our young female population to be aware. We seem to be educating them almost to tease, to dress like any rapists fantasy, to entice, to behave highly inappropriately and then...to scream their heads off when things go horribly wrong.   

"if there was a woman in the street naked, saying come on then and decided to change her mind, she should be able to do so, without fear."

Well, yes and no. She should also realise how bloody stupid she's being, and how naive too. In an ideal world, that would work, but in the real world, it doesn't. If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like.

Is it not best to be aware FIRST that you don't lead anyone to that point in the first place if you are not totally serious?



"no one has the right to make you do something that you don't want to do. it should be safe to do, go and dress anyway you want to."

But it isn't, jade. It simply isn't. And as you know, it can happen to people who aren't dressed suggestively. The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly.

WHY would any woman want to walk around dressed in such a suggestive manner in the first place? It's always puzzled me. Is it purely because they're so brainwashed that they'll follow any fashion going? Or do they really want to be so arrogant that they think they should be able to dress and behave however they want and remain completely untouchable?

IF you lead someone on, then cry wolf and it goes wrong, horribly so, then you have to take some responsibility for putting yourself into a highly dangerous situation in the first place. No, it is not your fault that someone may rape you, that is their decision and the line they choose to cross, but by behaving crudely, dressing provocatively and drinking to excess you ARE putting yourself in the frontline of danger.

Tell me, would you put your hand on a handle that said "Danger of Death, 350,000 vaults!" then say, but I *wanted* to put my hand there, it was my *right*!"   No, you knew the risks and wouldn't dream of putting your hand on there...


But we should be teaching our young women to stay as safe as they can, to behave in a responsible fashion.

Alternatively, we can carry on as we are, encourage our young women to drink themselves senseless, be crude, dress like hookers, lead men on, then turn around and slap in the face when things get out of hand....but is that any way for women to get men to have respect for them?

Don't get me wrong, rape is inexcusable, I absolutely agree with that...and my punishment for rapists who deliberately set out to prowl the streets searching for their victims cannot even be put down on this page.

But this modern day attitude of 'it's my right to behave however I want and men can't touch me for it!' needs to be looked at in far more depth.

No, I don't hate women...but I hate what has happened to them. I hate how they've allowed it to happen because this is not what equality is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM

Come on, Royston. Parameters may be argued ad inf ~ but surely you can see the diffce between wearing a 'Spank my bare bottom please, I am such a naughty girl!' T-shirt & being forced to cover up every inch except the eyes in hot thick black blankets. Give poor old Lizzie a bit of a fair deal, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:14 AM

I think people in general, from childhood, need to have it explained very clearly that a crime against another person is still a crime, even if that other person was being careless or acting in such a way as to tempt that action. This means if you invite someone into your home and show them your jewelry -- maybe even promise to give them some of it -- if they then take that jewelry without your express permission, that's theft. A crime. If someone staggers drunk out into the street and you hit them with your car when you clearly could have avoided that if you chose to, you could still be charged with either negligent homicide, manslaughter or even first-degree murder, if you either deliberately ran them down or made absolutely no effort to stop or swerve.   If someone taunts you, calls you names, insults your mother, and even yells "Hey! You want a piece of me!?" you are still guilty of battery if you throw the first punch, when you could have simply walked away.   And if I leave my brand new Mercedez (Yeah, like I really have one! lol) parked in a "bad neighborhood" with the keys in the ignition, my insurance company may refuse to pay in full when (not "if") it gets stolen, and they may even drop my coverage, but the law still says that's felony theft.

Rape is the only crime I can think of where many people seem to think the victim's carelessness, provocation, stupidity, etc. somehow totally negates the crime.   And I think that stems partly from the mistaken belief that being raped "isn't all that bad;" from the attitude that women are inherently evil temptresses who make men want to sin; from the belief that "a stiff prick has no conscience or self-control" (Try setting of the fire alarm and see how quickly a guy's physiological urges can shift gears.); or from the idea that, in a dating relationship or marriage, a woman couldn't have any good reason for changing her mind once foreplay began.   

Again, we generally don't apply 'logic' like that to other crimes against people.


Of course we need to teach women how to avoid and/or protect themselves from attacks, sexual and otherwise, and do what they can not to be victims.   Women also need to understand how difficult it is -- and should be -- to prove rape when (as is usually the case) there are no witnesses nor evidence of "consent" and "coercion" after the fact. And both girls and boys need to understand that falsely crying "rape" is itself a serious assault on another person.   But that should never, ever mean that a crime is "OK" just because it was committed against someone who was acting irresponsibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM

Sorry Lizzie Cornish. Well, I'm not sorry really. I have to pick you up on a point referenced by someone else.

A few weeks ago you accused 2bn Muslims of being vile, backward, degenerate woman-hating heathens (or words to that effect) because you said that they forced women to cover themselves against their will and to behave in certain ways in order to be controlled or so as not to be raped by the evil Muslim men.

Now, here, we find you arguing that, errm, women should cover themselves up so that they don't get raped, and that they bring it on themselves if they fail to do so and/or act in certain ways you regard as problematic.

Hmm, interesting. It would be funny if you weren't so harmful and offensive with your accusations.