BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Royston
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

No, M, you describe consent (passive or otherwise) followed by a change of the mind, a regret.

That is not rape.

That is nothing to with the the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:12 AM

Royston ~ Your word "effectively" is, in my judgment, equivocal and tendentious here ~ so I will obviously remain in disagreement with the concluding couple of sentences of your reply. She thinks, retrospectively but in good faith, that she did not consent, so that, she thinks, she WAS raped. So it has everything to do...

Who agrees with my assessment of such a situation as I have rubricated; or who thinks Royston's (to my mind and I speak purely IMO obviously) unconsidered and perverse knee-jerk dismissal of it, justified?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Royston
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM

MtheGM, you describe a situation where a woman effectively consents to sex and then changes her mind.

That is a situation in which a woman is NOT raped. That is nothing to do with the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:54 AM

To elaborate a little on that last post of mine:~ There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques, did not verbally express reluctance, permitted penetration tho without active encouragement. Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred, remembered that she had, tho being somewhat passive, not actually given positive consent. And then been led by these regrets to make an accusation of rape on the grounds that she had not positively consented ~ this accusation being made in what at this stage appeared to her as good faith, and not as any sort of vindictive false accusation.

I consider the above to be a perfectly possible putative scenario; and one moreover which would definitely represent a "grey area" of the sort which some of the more positive asserters on this thread keep insisting does not exist and cannot possibly exist.

Would any of such care to challenge such a"grey-area" identification?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:36 AM

Jeddy's unhappy experience, for which I have the utmost sympathy, clearly falls far on what one might call "the wrong side of the line".

~~ But saying this surely implies that there is such a line ~ & not just a line, but a "grey area" ~ of disputable width perhaps, but of undoubted existence.

Am I alone in detecting a somewhat rebarbative self-righteousness in the posts of those on these threads who are so pertinaciously denying the very existence of such a 'line' or 'grey area', of whatever width it may be held to be?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:56 PM

right... *wades back into thread pulling up sleeves*

raewulf, welcome to the thread, it is a long thread and things have been said numerous times, but having butted in on another long thread without reading back i know how you feel!
let me repeat my self, for your benefit.

i have been raped.
i got into bed, with no intention of having sex, he knew that as was indicated by the fact that apart fom my trousers and shoes, i was dressed. that and the rapist in question knows i am gay.
i had known him awhile, had mutual friends, and had been in his house before but not stayed over.

lox is completely right, there are certain things that need to happen before a man and woman can have sex. in my case, and thats all i can draw on here, HE ripped off my underwear. i tried to cover myself and had my hands held, while he....

as if that wasn't enough of a signal that i didn't want to, while..... i kept saying i didn't want it!

now apart from trusting the wrong person, by getting into bed, to sleep, which i have done before and since. what happened was NOT my fault!

sorry to anyone reading this that feels uncomfortable and it is too much, but folks that say that there any excuses for rape need to understand, BEFORE anything happens to them or someone they love.
as skarpi knows, you don't have to experiance something first hand to be able to empathise.

whether drunk, aroused, angry or frustrated, there is no excuse.

it doesn't make me feel dirty anymore, just angry. not at HIM strangely, but those here that can't or won't see that a woman is NEVER to blame for being raped.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:33 PM

I will add one more thing.

Nowhere do i espouse a philosophy that the world is black and white.

Nowhere do I espouse the view that there are no shades of grey in life.


The very essence of the dea that there can be shades of grey in life includes the idea that sometimes things are black and white.


For example, on a black and white tiled floor.

Maybe the white tiles are dirty, and maybe the black tiles are dusty, but we know when we are on a black tile and when we are on a white one, and we know there is no grey tile seperating them.


Another example is in the case on consensual/non consensual sex.

You know when its consensual because you are given consent, and this consent is reflected in a womans words, in her actions and in her state of arousal.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 PM

Last post directed at Raedwulf

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 PM

My declarations about the actaul physical prerequisites for sex to take place are concrete.

1. You need to remove clothes.

2. you need to ne in a position that makes penetration possible.

3. In consensual sex, the female is engorged.

4. In consensual sex the female is awake.


The human body is a big heavy thing that takes strength to undress and move around if it is not being cooperative. In addition, the Vagina in its non-engorged state is extremely constricted and would take an determined and violent effort to penetrate.


These are concrete physical obstacles to sex with a non consenting female, be she either comatose or fighting back.


These physical realities combined make it very clear that a rapist must be determined, ruthless and coldblooded in the execution of their crime.


My statement stands that men who rape know they are raping.

As for all your comments on the subject of me and what you have to teach me about myself, You have clearly decided, after appearing out of the blue, to take up an adversarial stance against me, and to make character judgements about me after having engaged wwith me on two or three posts.


On reflection, It is you who are making unsustainable claims.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 PM

no one should be raped , I am a father of a girl who ....
and this is a soul murder.....this will follow her for the rest of her live urrrrrrrrrrr and this touch me alot ....it hurts ...
and you may know that if I had it in me I would have done something
horrible to that man , but I did not ..being on the same level
as that man is not going to take this back .

...
enough.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM

I'd bang my head on the desk.. but it wouldn't achieve anything useful.

"The person who I quoted was clearly not you." Well, eff me, didn't I say I didn't think it wasn't? And what is so hard about making it clear who EXACTLY it is you are responding to? It's a big thread; 420+ posts; maybe it'd be a good idea to make things clear? Some people do come to things late after all. I *think* you may be responding to Ake. But I'm not absolutely certain because I'm trying to engage in the thread without having to wade through every single post in it. I'm sure I bear some culpability in that, but you can understand why, yes? ;-) Nevertheless, my point about your language remains the same - you are being deliberately offensive toward "whoever" the opposition is. It might be emotionally satisfying (mea culpa!), but it doesn't prove anything, however much you may wish it to.

As to "There are no grey areas when it comes to consent", I have no personal experience of the scenario you describe. I do have some experience of the weird & wonderful ways in which two people can interpret the same event, and describe the same situation. I even have some experience of the different ways in which ONE individual can describe an event at different intervals.

If you think the the world is sufficiently B&W to sustain your point of view, good luck to you. In my experience, it is NOT. Since my experience is very real to me, I object to being told it is not. Hence, I am happy to see shades of grey, and to allow others their greys, even if I do not see the shades they do. I object to being told that my grey is not real. If you see what I mean.

Unfortunately, your declarations are not as sustainable as either of us might wish them to be.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:25 PM

Raedwulf,

You asked:

"who are you talking to"

The clue is in the quote at the top of my post.

The person who I quoted was clearly not you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Raedwulf.

Let me clarify.

There are no grey areas when it comes to consent.

Lets say I misunderstand what a girl means ...

Lets say I believe she wants to have sex when she actually doesn't ...

In that Instance, I might make an honest mistake.

But I then have to try and have sex with her.

If you have ever had sex, you may remember that this is a process which involves the removal of clothes, and then a certain amount of jostling for position and other necessary physical requirements like engorgement of genitalis and lubrication etc.

And that is a very simplified aand reduced picture.

It would be impossible during this process not to become aware of whether a woman was consenting to sex.


Men who rape know they are raping.

It does not happen by accident, remote control, or without the knowledge and intent of the rapist.

In rape, it is a black and white issue.


The only problem for the oursider is knowing, without witnesses, what actually did happen.

But that is a seperate issue.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

Who are "you" talking to? I assume it's not me; equally I don't know who you think you are being offensive to (quite clearly, that's what you intend). Your use of the word "responsible" is no more responsible than that of whoever you are challenging. Responsible is NOT an on/off state.

"I believe you misunderstand intentionally as it suits your worldview..."

I suggest you take a *very* close look at that statement - you may be as guilty as whoever it is you accuse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

"Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area" "


No.


You accuse others of playing with words.


Yet you are playing a childish witless wordgame with "responsible"


Being responsible for your own safety has nothing to do with being responsible for a crime.


Mixing the two concepts up shows nothing but ignorance of the meaning of the word in those two COMPLETELY seperate contexts.


This Thread is about judgemental women who blame other women for being raped saying "they brought it on themselves"


Your pathetic pseudo intellectual fiddle faddling with the word responsible is meaningless and adds nothing except a substanceless puff of doubt as to who is to blame in a rape.



By your logic, women who are raped in the workplace by their powerful boss are responsible for the rape by putting themselves in an environment where they can easily be blackmailed.

By your logic, a women would therefore be bringing it on herself by going to work and must take the blame.


Note - I did not say you think that, I said that your argument would support that view - and this indicates that there is a flaw in your argument.

Namely, you misunderstand the difference between personal responsibility and criminal responsibility.

I believe you misunderstand intentionally as it suits your worldview which is consistently reactionary.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

"There are no grey areas."

Your black & white world must be... very different from the one that I inhabit. I'm not saying that I could not hear a "No". But you too glibly dismiss too many things, and are too ready to attribute blame.

Which way it suits you to attribute that blame, I am indifferent to; mostly I object to the fact that you will blindly point the finger. People are people, and when things go wrong, people are at fault. Male, female, assailant, victim; these things are, all too often, not clear cut.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

"our resident supporter of minority causes"

Women are not a minority.

Duh!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

"But surely you also know that going to bed with a stranger..drunk, increases your chances of being raped, many times"

By this logic, being in bed with a stranger sober is less dangerous.

Or being in bed drunk with someone you know is less dangerous.

Or being out in public drunk - or sober - is less dangerous.


In fact, there is one and only one factor which puts you in danger of being raped ...

... it is whether you are with a rapist or not.


In which case the circumstances, including fashion sense, state of drunkenness and location are of minimal significance.


If someone, of their own free will, says they would like a shag, then the can be said to have consented.

If someone says no then they cannot be said to have consented.

If someone is drunk and sleepy, then a man with an eye for the bleeding obvious will have little trouble noticing that they aren't gagging for coitus.

If someone in thius state gives no consent, then there is no indication that there was any reason for sex to happen except as a result of the rapists opportunism.

There are no grey areas.



Where there were only two people present and we cannot be sure wht actually happened and what was actually consented to or not is a different matter.

That would be about finding out what actually happened.

If we found out that she said no or was too drunk and sleepy to either say yes or to stop him, then we know she was raped.

Again, none of this has any bearing on whether or not a rape victim is responsible for the crime committed against her.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

Yaaaaaaay Joe! And I was worried you were... not here anymore... ;-) My apologies, but you know what I'm like (if you remember, anyway).

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM

I deleted the last several posts from this thread because they were just puerile name-calling. Please stick to the topic of discussion.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

DeG - if you vote for the conservatives you had better grab your ankles and grease your fundament, because the old Etonians will do what they have always done.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 01:17 PM

I don't understand the connection that some people wish to draw between women behaving foolishly before a real rape, and a false rape claim. As if they proved something, or one had something to do with the other other than that they both involve sex and contain the word "rape". What's up with that, guys?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

PM sent MP.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:55 AM

*Ack* 410-odd posts...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM

Without attempting to read through the whole 440-odd posts that this already extends to, I read this article ere I ever saw this post. If what I say only repeats points already made, my apologies. Nevertheless,

"Some rape victims should take blame"

That is not what I recall reading.

"they should accept some responsibility"

THAT is almost what I read.

A sickness of the modern world is the abrogation of responsibility. Everything is "My rights"; nothing is "my duty". Everything must be someone's fault; yet nothing, seemingly, could ever be "my" fault. And fault itself is an on/off state - blame can never be shared. Either it's my fault (of course it's not my fault; how dare you suggest such a thing!), or it's your fault (of course it's your fault; how dare you suggest otherwise!). No grey areas.

The first few posts imply, perhaps accidentally, just such a state of affairs. Pink's comment, "a great many women actually go [to bed] for kisses and cuddles.... it can happen in a bed too. Are they to be raped for it? Lots of women are looking for loving even when they may appear to be being sexual."

Let me turn that around. "Lots of men are looking for sex, even when they may appear to be loving." Why is it that the man is automatically blamed for any misunderstanding between the sexes? It's really not rocket science. Communication requires at least two parties involved. When communication becomes confused, both parties must examine their own role. It [b]cannot[/b] be acceptable to say "My actions must be beyond reproach; it [b]must[/b] be your fault". Whether we speak of rape or anything else, surely this is so?
"Date rape using drugs is an offence. Is alcohol not a drug?"
"Date rape using drugs" implies the unwilling consumption of said drugs. Alcohol? First, define "drug"; second, prove that the consumer bears no responsibility for their own actions (note: no gender specified here)..

Ake's comment, the 5th of the thread, sums things up quite nicely. Blanket statements about such matters are unwise. Everyone is capable of making mistakes. Whether someone is superficially an assailant or a victim, this still remains true! Blame? Start thinking of it as a sliding scale that is rarely anything more than a muddled grey. Black & white is rarely a given.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

"To whom do you refer ake?"

Apologies...

I meant "to whom do you refer DeG?"

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM

"our resident supporter of minority causes"

To whom do you refer ake?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:45 AM

Actualy - you know what I have just realised. For the first time. as far as I know, our resident supporter of minority causes is, in fact, in the majority. If 75%+ of rape cases result in acquital then the bias is defintely pro-man. Yet we are being told that us men get a rough deal when it comes to rape legislation. Maybe I should change sides! I'm not used to being a minority. Help!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

True, MP, true.

I don't think we will get any further just by restating what we have already said over and over again. ake. How about we just leave it at we disagree whther the issue of the victims foolishness should be brought to bear, legaly or morally, in the case of rape. At the end of the day, as the high proportion of acquitals shows, the law is indeed on your side. All I am saying is that I find it unfair but my opinion matters very little when it comes to the judiciary!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

"That is not excusing the crime, but it is simply having a responsible attitude to ones own safety.....physically and legally. "

So what difference does it make to being raped?

You are still edging toward putting some onus on the victim for getting raped. That is where it becomes a fallcious argument. Being silly does not equate to being responsible for or deserving rape.

By repeatedly pointing about resposibility you seem to be implying that with rape victims then do take some of the blame. Can you see how that is occurring? NOTHING mitigates rape. End of.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

But surely you also know that going to bed with a stranger..drunk, increases your chances of being raped, many times

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM

Bad taste or not, there is a point to be made...

"If we vote for this government to continue we deserve to get shafted..."

There is an element of consent there in that by voting for them we know what will happen to us.

If I know a man to be a serial rapist and I then go to his house and get in bed...

I think the difference is significant.

Do we deserve still to get 'shafted' to use your term?

We all make mistakes. Some never learn from theirs

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

Of course the point I have been trying to make, is that in this life, we all at some time have to bear some of the responsibility for what happens to us.

We shouldn't walk out on the motorway blind drunk, nor get into bed with a stranger drunk or sober.

That is not excusing the crime, but it is simply having a responsible attitude to ones own safety.....physically and legally.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

"Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area""

There seems to be an underlying premise in this line of resoning that, if you doi get in bed with a stranger, you deserve all you get That undercurrent is totally wrong and points to being judgemental

If you get in bed with a guy and you have no condoms between you and you proceed to sex, then end up with an STI or being pregnant, one could suggest it serves you right for not being more responsible. That said you could use a condom and still end up pregnant. I'll go that far. BUT what it does not mean is that he has a right to Rape you. Grey area or not. Being in the grey should not ever justify rape. There is no onus on the victim. THe perpetrator is wholly responsible.

(and I am only talking about acquaintance type rapes here)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area"

So is parking your car in a new area, Ake, but I have vener heard that plea in mitigation for taking without consent.

I have to qualify I fail to see why acting foolishly should be punished by rape! There is one instance. If we vote for this government to continue we deserve to get shafted...

Sorry. Bad taste, but I couldn't resist it.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM

That should read.....as if it was what I meant ...sorry:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM

I think most women know that, and take the appropriate precautions.

Of course none of this EXCUSES the crime ...please dont repeat that as it was what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM

"Is it not irresponsible to put herself in such a legally "grey" area? "

Most of us never really know what that grey area is until it's too late and a crime is done against us. It then becomes a grey area.

If we never entered grey areas I doubt we would ever do much for we never know what is truly going to happen to us.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

I agree entirely, Ake, that everyone is responsible for their own safety but I fail to see why acting foolishly should be punished by rape!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

"Well if not responsible for the crime(Mr McGrath has explained why this cannot be so)...Is she not responsible for her own safety? "

We all have to be resposible for our own safety if we have the mental capacity to do so. Some people do not and they have special protections in law. However, no-one should be raped because of being irresponsible. Irresponsiblity is not a crime in the main and if it were a lot of us would be in jail at some time in our life.

Neglecting personal safety should not detract from the crime of rape. Rape is one and same no matter how it is committed. Rape is the crime. The victim should not be made to feel responsible for it in any way. I am sure many rape victims spend a lot of time thinking they should have sone something different before they were raped. That does not mean they are guilty in any way and it is typical of victims to look for reasons to blame themselves often for what happened to them.

What they do not need is others, who have no idea what went on, pointing fingers and being all moralistic.

ALL rape victims have the same thing in common. They were raped. Only the circumstances differ that lead up to it. No, they are not responsible for being raped even if they have let their guard down a bit.

IMHO

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM

No one has argued that the cases of 'acquaitance' rape that make up the majority of rape situations is an easy one to prosecute as it is the word of one person against another - the figures I have quoted for the number of allegations never proceeded with bear this out.

But ake! you wrote -

"had sex(which he said was consentual or as near to consentual as they could remember)....

The problem here ake is that 'he' said the sex was consentual you do NOT say 'she' said it was, although by the context (reporting rape the following day) we assume she said it wasn't so we are back to one person's word against another.

Is the suggestion here that neither could remember with any accuracy? (you use the word 'they') - in which case was the man assuming consent even if the woman was very drunk or even unconscious - was he sober enough to justify his belief that the sex was consentual?

The reality here is that a case of this sort (his word against hers) would almost certainly never get beyond the reporting stage WHATEVER the actual circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:04 AM

Is it not irresponsible to put herself in such a legally "grey" area?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:59 AM

I agree, but in those circumstances does a woman bear no responsibility for her own safety?

The above scenario must be quite common especially if both have been drinking.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:56 AM

"Is this rape? and if so, does the woman really bear no responsibility for what occurred?"

IF it is rape then she bears no responsibility

IF it is not rape and she has cried it, then shame on her and I think she should be charged with malicious prosecution type laws. I do not know the terms. No woman or man should ever cry rape unless it is true. That does not mean that you could not believe in all honesty you have been raped, but than in actual fact you were not.

The case you cite has enough grey areas for the likelihood of not being able to prove beyond a reasonabl doubt (unless other foresnsics are found to prove it was a forced sex situation).

There is NO excuse for a woman making a false and malicious case. That is why the man's name should be protected until after any trial. He should be afforded annomimity on the grounds you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless it is known he really is the guilty party beforehand.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM

Well if not responsible for the crime(Mr McGrath has explained why this cannot be so)...Is she not responsible for her own safety?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM

Ake. If it was rape then no, she does not bear any of the blame and she is only responsible in the way that a car is responsible for being stolen by being there! If it was not rape and she did indeed consent then there is no argument. Not only is she responsible but she is also despicable for blaming an innocent man. I don't know which is true. I was not there but, as everyone keeps saying, the victim should never be classed as responsible for ANY crime.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

As I said already, I think we're all agreed that in the vast majority of cases the crime of rape is committed by drunk, deranged, or manipulative men...no one in their right mind would seek to excuse that.

There are a few cases which are a little different, like the one I cited, where the woman went to a strangers house, spent the nighjt in bed with him, had sex(which he said was consentual or as near to consentual as they could remember)....the next day the woman reported the man for rape.

Is this rape? and if so, does the woman really bear no responsibility for what occurred?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

well reminded emma. i had forgotten that the accussed used to be able to question the accusers themselves. it is no wonder with all the red tape and fear that people don't want to report rape.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM

Richard, the report I posted at 9.01 today was published in 2000

Section 41 of the 1999 Act replaced section 2 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1976 and came into effect in Dec 2000
The new legislation offered complainants in sexual offence cases better protection against unnecessary cross-examination on their sexual behaviour.
It provides a more structured approach to decision-taking and sets out more clearly when evidence of previous sexual history can be admitted in rape cases

Evidence of previous sexual behaviour can only be used with the leave of the court
The court must be satisfied that to refuse leave would result in the jury, or the court, reaching an unsafe conclusion on a relevant issue at trial.
The courts will also refuse permission if they believe that the real main aim of evidence claimed to relate to a relevant issue is simply to undermine the complainant's credibility.

Other measures in the 1999 Act, to protect victims of rape and other sexual offences from being cross examined by the defendant in person in court, were implemented on 4 September 2000.