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BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM "We are responsible for our own actions, and that responsibility (and any consequent guilt) is not reduced by the fact that other people are also responsible for their actions." I know what you are saying. I agree what happens and how the guy would be seen. But the deep philosophical argument on him being blamed partially because he left his keys is not fair. The fact remains we should all be able to leave our doors open and not have strangers enter and steal our property. I know in the real world people and insurers do not hink like that, but I am on about a black and white situation. The theif is wholly rrspinsible for the theft at the very basic level, not the victim. Accepting anyone who is innocent of being responsible for crimes against them seems wrong to me. Again, I know the real world, but the basic premise stinks. In a decent world ff you make an error you should not have to expect to pay by having a crime committed against you. It's not a decent world I know. WE can let this diversion to the thread go though as I think we know where both stand on it :-) mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: From: GUEST,Lox Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM If a woman goes to a party wearing a very short skirt and flirting with everyone, then goes with a man to a secluded area and makes out with him, and he turns nasty... it's quite possible she could've prevented that. She put herself in an unsafe position. One point that hasn't been raised is, the most popular sexual fantasy among women is ... yes you guessed it, rape. While there are women who cry 'rape' after consensual sex, the real reason that the conviction rate is so low is because it is a crime to which there are usually no witnesses and where it is a classic 'his word against hers' situation. The only way that the government will secure more convictions is if they change the burden of proof in rape cases. This would be a terrible thing for British justice and could see more innocent guys go to jail. I'm bothered by the implication that if a man and a woman are really blotto, and have sex, that only the woman can be a victim. Is he not a victim of sexual assault? If the sexual integrity of women is so important in our society, then surely women have a responsibility to guard and preserve it? I also resent the feminist expansion of rape to cover every sexual situation including feeling emotionally pressured into having consensual sex.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:22 AM Lissie if you think the prime focus of the hippy philosophy in the 60s was clothes and flowers you merely underline your inability to think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:57 PM That guest post was me. Very long way to go. Could not agree more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lox Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM In addition, It is of utmost importance that rape victims do not add to their already considerable trauma by believing for one second that it was their fault. Imagine that someone you trust rapes you out of the blue, and then you are told "it was your own fault". Being that low you might well be tempted to believe it. You might wonder how you didn't see that your attacker was the way they are. You might blame yourself for it. But in fact, we live once and we have the right to be free in our hearts and minds and we should not skulk around in the shadows shrouded in grey and trusting noone in case, as a result of being "irresponsible" we cause ourselves to be attacked by a man who is simply acting out his natural male animal programming. No! You enjoy your life, you assert your right to express yourself how you will, and society evolves to protect you over and above the criminals that want to see you subjugated and humiliated. Instead of saying "well you have to accept responsibility" society says "we will not tolerate violence". I don't know what else to add. I keep being reminded that we still have a long way to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: GUEST Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:42 PM "I reject entirely the suggestion that a woman is ever to blame in any way whatsoever for being the victim of rape." It ain't rocket surgery. It's so obvious it almost doesn't need stating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: jeddy Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:39 PM well said lox! i just don't have the patience right now to deal with this properly. and besides, you are always so much more eloquent than me.!! love jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lox Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:32 PM McGrath, I reject entirely the suggestion that a woman is ever to blame in any way whatsoever for being the victim of rape. I understand your point, I don't accept your premiss. The semantics regarding "guilt" "responsibility" and "blame" are all irrelevant. People on here are talking about rape victims with an image of a young fantasy figure enticing an innocent dumb animal into his or her den and then being surprised when he devours her. Ths has no bearing on reality. The reality is that you cannot know who will be a rapist until they try to rape you. Anyone, wearing any type of clothing - a suit or a hoodie - could be a rapist. Most men aren't and sexual banter and flirtation goes on healthily and humorously and trustingly between young women and men in social and cultural gatherings the world over just as they have for hundreds of years. Most men know that being flirted with is not the same as being given consent for sex. I flirt all the time and women of all ages and backgrounds love it. I flirt with my female friends because its a natural way to recognize the differences between us without getting all hung up about them so we can relax. If some wanker decides to interpret that kind of natural playfulness as consent to do what he wants then that does not mean that the rape victim "should think twice before behaving that way again" - bollocks! It means he should be locked up and left to negotiate a settlement with big bubba in the showers! |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: jeddy Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM ok a couple of songs since this is a music site. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmBlO-YWcM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIToeKQEwPs |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:09 PM The point you raise about the family blaming me over the car though is a good one. Nevertheless, that does not make the fammily right. I find it inconceivable that in the circumstances I outlined the rest of the family would not be quite entitled to blame the twit who left the keys in the car door. And I am sure that in a slightly different scenario where it was a car he had borrowed, and the owner took a civil case against him, the law would say the same. But in neither case would he be seen as guilty of theft. ....................................... This isn't drift - but I think there is some value in examining the question of whether a victim can bear responsibility in a less fraught context than rape. It still appears to me that the seesaw view of blame is being accepted uncritically. I think it deserves to be examined because under examination it does not stand up. We are responsible for our own actions, and that responsibility (and any consequent guilt) is not reduced by the fact that other people are also responsible for their actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Amos Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM MP: No problem, duck. I understood where you stood, I was just being grouchy about the thread name. I'm fine with the modified one, though! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM "Who said that women should be raped, purely for being 'there'. " The suggestion has been made that by being in certain scenarios, or dressing a certain way, etc, you should bear some of the responsibility for what happens to you. Vis a vis if I had not been on the door of that club this jerk could not have put his hand up my skirt... You see how suggesting someone is being irresponsible can be so misleading and wrong? I know I did no wrong that night. I certainly never lead him on or encouraged his attentions. He just thought he could as he liked... Nonetheless, had I not been on that door... And to take some of the suggestions about responsibility that have been expressed here I am therefore guiilty. I know I'm not. I use the experience to illustrate a point. What harm happened me that night? I went away feeling dirty and also since that I let other women down that night. That bastard is probably still harrassing women and doing as he likes when he is drunk. We live and learn :-( mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM "...From some of what I have read on this thread I would be seen as being responsible for the assault because I happen to be on the door of that club that night. I was there so must have been looking to get touched up and assaulted,.." Eh? Who said that women should be raped, purely for being 'there'. I've just read the entire thread, so I think you're mistaken on that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM Fair enough Lizzie... That is often the case in discussion and opinions :-) and apology accepted though not expected thanks mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM "Lizzie: show me where I said women do not need to be responsible please in any of my posts." I've just trawled through all 7 pages, mp. (Yikes!) You are absolutely correct, you did NOT state that, and I therefore apologise to you unreservedly. We agree on more than we disagree, in actual fact, but the one thing we're going to have to agree to disagree on is that I feel there *are* some scenarios where blame/responsibility should be shared, because the actions of one person, can lead to the reactionn of the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM jade... I never saw it as you attacking anyone. It was a simple request. I responded in favour. I have clearly stated the thread was not about opening wounds for people. I am happy for the salt to be removed :-) I have never been raped. I have had a sexual assault comitted against me. I actually let that guy off, as he got banned from the club the assault took place, because I did not want the fuss that would have followed from a trial. That feared me more than him. I was a coward. What I should have done is report him because he may have gone on to assault other women. From some of what I have read on this thread I would be seen as being responsible for the assault because I happen to be on the door of that club that night. I was there so must have been looking to get touched up and assaulted, despite warning him three times to remove his hand... until I pushed him away and he fell down some steps into the street. He said he was calling the police on me and I asked he go ahead... enough people had heard me tell him to get off. He was then banned and that was the last of it. A trial would have been like being assaulted again. I did not have the courage then. I would now. And so it is, I have never been raped. I am a lucky one. I have no idea how much pain and hurt it causes. I have seen the damage it does to lives. If some are going to add insult to injury by saying there is some partial responsibility then shame on them. The thread can close for sure. I want no-one hurt by it for sure and good luck to you for the future Jade xx mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: jeddy Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM i wasn't trying to deny anyone a voice on this subject. to me it seems that the subject itself has gone round and now it is a case of i am right and you are wrong. of course it is wrong for anyone to manipulate anyone else regardless of sex and having sex. it is my choice to come back and look at this thread, i could walk away. the problem is because it is a subject so important to me, it means i feel a duty to stand up for those who are too truamatised to do it for themselves. i a sorry if this reads like i am attacking anyone, i am not! just passionate. it just feels like an excuse to rp each other to bits. thanks for your support to close the the thread mp, it is appreciated. i am glad you understand what i mean. take care all jade x x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:41 PM McGrath of Harlow... Thanks for your quick response but my reply was actually to akenaton as to why I had not replied to the post. You did indeed state what you say. The point you raise about the family blaming me over the car though is a good one. Nevertheless, that does not make the fammily right. The whole balances on how we have come to see the victims of crime as somehow being complicitous in the act against them. That view is wrong, but I quite agree, it's how many see things. The guy leaving his keys though is not at fault in reality, the theif is totally responsible for their acttions. We need to make a shift away from holding victims of crime in some way part responsible for the crimes against them. In essence you said that I believe, Thanks again mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM Fact is you SHOULD be able to leave your keys in a car without someone assuming the right to steal it because the owner was being careless. The owner left the keys, that is all. No-one has a right to them help themselves. I absolutely agree. But you'd be bloody stupid to do it. And I am sure that your family would blame you for that stupidity when the family car went missing. I specifically said that I did not accept the idea of "shared responsibility", with its implication that the guilt of the perpretrator is someehow less if the victim is seen as at fault as well. In fact I think it is nonsensical to think that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:31 PM Jeddy... "can i ask the OP and MODS for permission to close the thread now please? " I am not sure if I have any say but if the Ops feel it should be closed I have no objection. There is always the option of not coming back and looking at it at all Jeddy but if you think it should be closed I will not stand in the way. The discussion as such is complete. I'll abide by other's wishes on this mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Emma B Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:30 PM "The majority of rape cases are , in that a woman has been raped by a man, through no fault of her own. She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head. She bears no guilt for that whatsoever. It is entirely his fault. I have no sympathy for the rapist and every sympathy for his victim/s." Lizzie, it has been explained to you by other people as well as myself that the majority of rape crimes are NOT 'absolutely clear cut' The vast majority of rape crimes fall in the category of 'acquaintance rapes' whether you accept facts or not - and I know you mostly chose to prefer to ignore them It is very much these situations that are the subject of the survey that prompted thread |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: GUEST,mg Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM We have not begun to cover everything. There are serious cross-cultural issues here. There are substance abuse issues. There are handicapping condition issues. There are issues that vary with the age and frankly IQ and EQ of the people involved. It seems very arbitrary and frankly controlling to request a closure when a person just decides something is done. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: bobmac1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM There isnt a very clear cut answer. Lots of viewpoints have been aired here and the more it is debated, the closer we can get to some kind of truth. Essentially, it may be down to a law of will. I dont think that there is a single post here that doesnt relate to societies perception as a whole as to what constitutes 'rape'. We are living more and more in figurative times, and in such a topical debate, each faceted reckoning is pregnant with possibilities. It is an unknown dilemma, what with societies influences on the projections of youth. Today on the telly I heard about a man who raped and smothered his niece. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: vectis Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM I listened to the start of "The Moral Maze" on BBC Radio 4 tonight at 8 whilst on my way to a meeting and was horrified by the attitude of Claire Fox who appeared to be condoning rape. I didn't hear it all, I almost imploded as it was, but will attempt to hear the rest on iPlayer. God help us all if this is a generally held set of values. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM akenaton says "Funny how Mr McGrath's post was completely ignored by our baying "libs" " I never answered it because I only just saw it and do not accept the premise of shared responsibility for the theft. Fact is you SHOULD be able to leave your keys in a car without someone assuming the right to steal it because the owner was being careless. The owner left the keys, that is all. No-one has a right to them help themselves. It's not being Lib, to use your latest term, its common sense. Stop blaming the victims of crime for the crime or even being part way responisble. If it were not for thieves we would not need locks at all. Too many people think they can just help themselves... and when that comes to sex it's called rape. No responsibilty should be put on the victim mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM This is the whole paragraph of what I said, Emma, not just the second sentence. I have not mentioned 'acquaintance rape' there at all. You did. "The majority of rape cases are absolutely clear cut, in that a woman has been raped by a man, through no fault of her own. She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head. She bears no guilt for that whatsoever. It is entirely his fault. I have no sympathy for the rapist and every sympathy for his victim/s." |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:19 PM "I disagree 100%." So which bit did you disagree with, Lox? Do you really think that there is a certain limited amount of blame when something bad happens, and that it takes away from the perpetrator's guilt if the victim is also blameworthy? And that applies in all kinds of crime? A sort of seesaw. Maybe it avoids that kind or misunderstanding if we make a distinction between "guilt" and "blame", with "guilt" being properly restricted to the perpretator. This would be consistant with seing a victim, in some circumstances, as eligible to carry a degree of "blame". |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: jeddy Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM can i ask the OP and MODS for permission to close the thread now please? we have been round this before. and come to a pleasant understanding. i am NOT trying to curtail freedom of speech here, but i think we have covered everything, more than once. all it is doing now is making them feel angry and defencive. ta. jade x x x |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM "But, that would mean that you're expecting women to be responsible, and you've stated that women don't need to be responsible because there is no excuse for rape, no matter HOW they behave towards a man, no matter WHAT they do to him. " Lizzie: show me where I said women do not need to be responsible please in any of my posts. Responsible or not: the result should not be rape. It's really that simple. Women making malicious claims is totally wrong. There is no excuse for that either. ... and there is NO excuse for rape.. ever. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:00 PM "lizzie, you and i obviously know very different men!!!!!!!!!!" I am extremely fortunate, jade, I have never been treated badly, sexually, by any man. But one of my friends hanged himself after he was wrongly accused of having a relationship with one of his female pupils. I've stated that before. She was miffed that her affection was not being returned in any way at all, and so she made her accusation, withdrawing it later. Paul ended up taking his own life. It has made me think very differently about many things. Her actions set in action a chain of events that I'm sure she never once gave thought to, or ever intended to happen. He was the victim of those actions, not her. "i was going to go into yet another real life, what i have seen senario, but to be truthful, i am that upset with you making excuses for men to not control themselves, i am NEARLY lost for words." I make excuses for no-one, because everyone, at the end of the day, is ultimately responsible for their own actions. Men should control themselves, and the vast majority do, **but so should women.** That's all I'm trying to get across. (And again, I am NOT talking about the kind of rapes that have happened to people in this thread.) I'm not putting blame on to ANY person in this thread either, I'm talking hypothetically, that's all...trying to point out that sometimes it is not just women who become the victims, because if you have an unscrupulous or vindictive woman, and yes, they do exist, just as those types of personality do in the male population too, then men can also be in danger. Devil's Advocate, that's all.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Emma B Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:53 PM "She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head." No NO NO! Lizzie - this is simply NOT how the majority of 'acquaintance rapes' occur "Lox, what if *she* had decided to make *him* the victim?" Lizzie the succubus is the stuff of legend - neither men NOR women on the whole behave like this; I have more respect in my little finger for both sexes than you have demonstrated here - you do both sexes a diservice to promote this image Men have rights women have rights I've spent a lifetime working for the rights of both in employment etc You make me sad and very angry Lizzie I don't think I can say anything more right now......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM ""I never realised, until this thread started, that when it comes to making love, men don't have any rights at all. Everything is now from the woman's point of view, and what she says goes. Women control sex and that's just the way it is."" Once again, you go crashing past the point without seeing or understanding it. Men have exactly the same rights as women! They can say YES to sex, or they can say NO! They can say NO, and expect that to be accepted. What they cannot do is to override a NO, and force the issue. THAT SEEMS FAIR AND RIGHT TO ME! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM "We are all responsible for our own actions. We are not responsible for other peoples actions." But what if our actions have caused reactions in others, Lox? The majority of rape cases are absolutely clear cut, in that a woman has been raped by a man, through no fault of her own. She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head. She bears no guilt for that whatsoever. It is entirely his fault. I have no sympathy for the rapist and every sympathy for his victim/s. I am just putting forward another view....and that is a situation where the end result has happened because of the deliberate actions of a totally irresponsible woman. It does not let the man off the hook, but it perhaps goes part way to explain why that whole situation may have happened in the first place. And it happened because HE would have trusted her, would it not? After all, she was leading him on, she was deliberately giving out the message to him. He trusted her. Lox, what if *she* had decided to make *him* the victim? Now, there's a thought... Don, drugs never came onto my horizon, ever. I never drank, still don't, hate the taste of it, ugh..I loved the fashions, the music, have only happy memories of being a teenager. Carefree days spent with family, spent with friends. Shopping in BIBA, bell bottom jeans, bell bottom sleeves, long hair, peace, gentleness...If you're going to San Fransisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair....ah, those were the days my friend, I'd thought they'd never end.. But they did...because hate replaced love when the 80s hit town..and yuppie selfishness and greed kicked in, Thatcher, the Miners Strike, Class War, class hatred...and it began to go down, down, deeper and down...the backlashh against feminism was there too, with the men's magazines rising up once more..and suddenly are teenagers were drinking like never before, sex replaced love, harshness replaced gentleness, bitchiness replaced thoughtfulness...and a new century was born.... I never realised, until this thread started, that when it comes to making love, men don't have any rights at all. Everything is now from the woman's point of view, and what she says goes. Women control sex and that's just the way it is. I always thought it was a 'shared' thing, but I guess that's me being a dumb unnatural blonde again. Ho hum...... And yes, McGrath's post illustrates the point very well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: jeddy Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:38 PM this latest whipping people into a frenzy upsets me deeply. i thought we had come to if not agreement then an understanding. lizzie, you and i obviously know very different men!!!!!!!!!! i was going to go into yet another real life, what i have seen senario, but to be truthful, i am that upset with you making excuses for men to not control themselves, i am NEARLY lost for words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lox Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM I Missed McGraths Post. I disagree 100%. My example in my previous post shows where all your "boundaries" really exist - in your head. Reality is something entirely different. In a REAL bed with a REAL woman, if you are already having sex - let alone being seduced - if she wants to stop - or if you do - that is enough. It would take a rapist to coerce anyone to carry on when they want to stop. The victim is not to blame. She trusted him. I see our resident fuckwit has come sniffing around again to piss up the nearest lamppost and whine about liberals again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: akenaton Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM Mr McGrath as usual has addressed the problem suscinctly "Guilt shouldn't be seen as shared between a victim and a perpetrator of a crime, so that the guilt of the perpetrator is reduced if the victim caries some blame. Plenty of crimes whetre a victim can reasonably be seen as carrying some blame, but that shouldn't be seen as in any way reducing the blame on the perpetrator." I agree 100%, and this is what I and I presume Lizzie have been trying to say Funny how Mr McGrath's post was completely ignored by our baying "libs" |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lox Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM "But, that would mean that you're expecting women to be responsible, and you've stated that women don't need to be responsible because there is no excuse for rape" NO. Noone says that women should not act responsibly. Everyone should act responsibly. That has nothing to do with this: A rape vitim is not responsible for being raped. The two things are exclusive to each other. We are all responsible for our own actions. We are not responsible for other peoples actions. A Rapist is responsible for the act of rape, not his victim. Is that clear? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM I am intrigued by the description of her teenage years by Lizzie, in view of the fact that she is describing, most accurately, what life was like in my teens (1953 to 1959). Born in 1955, and entering her teens in 1968, post bikini, post hotpants, in the period of free love, hippies, communes, flower power, Woodstock, the Beatles and Stones, LSD, Pot etc. etc. It makes me wonder, in what secluded, miles from anywhere idyll she spent those years, which, for the rest of us, were the precursor to the culture she so despises. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM Lizzie - all that nonsense about love being necessary first is simply a reframing of your repressive diktat. Sex does not need love to justify it - only mutual freely given consent. Love may arise, and good luck if it does. It may be linked to sex, or it may be independent of it. But it is not a necessary precursor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lox Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:19 PM On the subject of "where to draw the line". If a man and a woman are having sex and the woman wants to stop, THAT MEANS STOP! To say that he has some sort of entitlement to carry on regardless is completely FUCKED UP. If he doesn't respect her wishes he is doing something wrong. "she led me on" would be a ridiculous thing to say. Sometimes, all of us can probably say that we have not felt right for one reason or another. Sometimes ones partner can take this badly. But human beings are not fairground rides. You DON'T get to demand your moneys worth because you NEVER have ownersship over another person. It is possible for two people to start out having consensual sex and then end up being players in a rape scenario. The line folks is very simple and very clear. If one person, at any time, decides they don't want to have sex at all or any more, then any attempt to coerce it after that point is rape. And it is 100% the rapists responsibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM No, Emma, I don't hate women. I dislike selfish and thoughtless women though, and selfish and thoughtless men too. Probably best if you don't feel that you know me better than I do. Your pal does that too, and she also gets it wrong. And sorry, but that scene is just as posisble to happen as yours is. There are many different reasons for things going so wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM Simple enough principle, maybe best stated in the context of a less traumatic crime - if you leave your keys in the door of a car, you carry some responsibility for it getting stolen. But that in no way should be seen as reducing the guilt of the person who steals the car. Guilt shouldn't be seen as shared between a victim and a perpetrator of a crime, so that the guilt of the perpetrator is reduced if the victim caries some blame. Plenty of crimes whetre a victim can reasonably be seen as carrying some blame, but that shouldn't be seen as in any way reducing the blame on the perpetrator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Emma B Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:52 PM "Maybe you'd like to think about what might happen to a man who was maliciously singled out by a woman who deliberately gave him the wrong signals. A woman who went home with him, continuing with those signals, who got into bed with him, signalling away, who let love-making (or sex for the emotionless amongst you) start, who kept at it, relaxing as he relaxed, who brought this man to the point of almost no return....and then, just as he was about to............... ....she changes her mind. Quite deliberately." This is NOT a description of acquaitance or 'date' rape Lizzie; it seems to be some weird fantasy scenario of someone who really holds nothing but contempt for women. Yhe more usual situation is a couple who having been drinking together there is a failure to read messages - probably from both sides. however - do NOT demean men here - they are not a slavering slave to some atavistic hegemonic masculine lust and do NOT have to continue against someone's expressed wishes As I quoted somewhere previously It is offensive to both men and women to burden women with responsibility for male behavior and infantilizes men as creatures unable to exercise self-control. The myth of uncontrollable male sex drive manages to be both misogynistic and misandrist at the same time |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Emma B Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:31 PM As there is no excuse, in my book, for any man who believes no means yes there is equally no excuse for any woman who retrospectively (for whatever reason) turns yes back to no. However amongst the many 'myths' about rape is the one that perpetuates the popular prejudice that about half rape victims are lying, Research shows just 3% of rape allegations are false - still 3% too many! "The fear that women lie about being rape can be found throughout history. In the seventeenth century, Lord Chief Justice Matthew Hale was responsible for introducing the "cautionary instruction" into common law. This entailed the judge informing the jury that rape was a charge that was easily made by the victim and yet difficult for the defendant to disprove. Until the 1980s, judges commonly uttered these words to jurors, despite the fact that the legal system within which Hale worked was fundamentally different from the one facing defendants from the nineteenth century onwards. In Hale's time, criminals were not presumed innocent, proof beyond reasonable doubt was not required, and notions of due process were shaky. The accused did not have the right to counsel or the right to testify under oath; he could not subpoena witnesses." * *New Statesman article 2008 "Today, in the early twenty-first century, the same rape myths still circulate. These flaccid catchphrases seem clear and self-evident, yet are profoundly damaging for people who suffer sexual abuse" |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM "As for malicioulsy accusing someone of rape falsely: if that is then proven then the accuser should do the time. It devastates lives and many men, falsely accused, have in the least had ruined careers and at worse killed themselves. False accusation is as heinous as rape in my opinion." But, that would mean that you're expecting women to be responsible, and you've stated that women don't need to be responsible because there is no excuse for rape, no matter HOW they behave towards a man, no matter WHAT they do to him. Responsibility is what I've been banging on about the whole way through, actually, mp. Maybe you'd like to think about what might happen to a man who was maliciously singled out by a woman who deliberately gave him the wrong signals. A woman who went home with him, continuing with those signals, who got into bed with him, signalling away, who let love-making (or sex for the emotionless amongst you) start, who kept at it, relaxing as he relaxed, who brought this man to the point of almost no return....and then, just as he was about to............... ....she changes her mind. Quite deliberately. She changes her mind, pushes him away, says scathing things to him...and when he flips out completely, with anger, confusion and deep frustration and does the unthinkable, she then cries "RAPE!" at the top of her voice... What then, of the man who simply went home with a woman he thought was deeply interested in him, sexually? What then, for the man who is now a rapist? What then, for the man who may never, had he not been in that place at that time, with that woman, have ever dreamt of raping a woman? What then? Another noose, slid gently around his neck one day, when he can take the thoughts no longer, like my wholly innocent friend, Paul, who was a victim of malicious accusation? What then of the man? What then of the woman? What then of the families? Total Irresponsibility and No Blame can have HUGE repercussions, for all involved. I am not condoning rape here, just trying to get you to see a very different viewpoint. You don't have to of course, for you are free to feel as so choose. Rape is rape, but sometimes, the paths that lead up to particular sorts of rape, as in 'date rape' are far from smooth or easy to walk down. yes, no-one has the right to make any woman do something she does not want to, but she needs to think very carefully about what she actually IS doing, before anyone gets hurt. And sorry to come back in here again, but your words rankled with me a little. |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM I see a moderator has added ?? Thanks :-) it hopefully passifies those who may have disliked the initial title mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ?? From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM Amos wrote "I can imagine a case where the consent was withdrawn after the fact, which could leave the male in a very awkward situation; but my advice would be to choose better whom he pursueth." There lies a very sad situation and it is there where the male really does get a raw deal. I do not think he should get named for an allegation and should have the same protection as the alleged victim until proven. Too many men have come unstuck because a woman has changed her mind afterwards and the called rape. For me, if she knows she consented and then calls rape she shoulod be the one charged. If she is not certain what she did but knows what happened to her when she wakes up... massive grey area. To me this is the haunting one. Was it rape or consented? Who would truly know? Some evidence of rape would be required I am sure, and not just sperm but force, to proceed with prosecution. I dare say there have been cases where women have got it wrong but not in any malicious way. It would be nice to think modern law and forensic could help find the truth... but there is major areas of doubt. As for malicioulsy accusing someone of rape falsely: if that is then proven then the accuser should do the time. It devastates lives and many men, falsely accused, have in the least had ruined careers and at worse killed themselves. False accusation is as heinous as rape in my opinion. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: mauvepink Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:01 PM Amos wrote "I find the title of this thread very irritating. I wish it would be at least rephrased as a qu8estion. As an assertion, it raises me hackles, it does." Amos I can only apologise but I took the title from the BBC article which itself irritated the heck out of me. Not the article but some of the views expressed. I posted it more or less verbatim to create discussion and revulsion at the very idea. I think it has more impact the way it is written. I did say I was devastated by the article. I went through some ideas as to my own opinions and there was no way I could get near to ever thinking a rape victim played a part to it. Categorically I do not agree with the title... but it serves a purpose of making people want to look at the thread and express their views and, hopefully, their total support for rape victims without judgement. I think overally the thread has been very positive, though I do and did apologise for anyone who it has touched upon or opened for that was not its intention wounds. The original article shocked me as much as have some of the comments here because they have come from women. You could almost expect the men to be crying out about being tempted and women not playing fair. For the men to be defensive in some ways. So far not one has and I am encouraged greatly by that. Which proves the point really Only a guy who could rape would likely be affronted by being accused of doing it. Decent men, while maybe having made mistakes and misread signals from maybe confused signallers, have still respected her and stopped or stayed clear. The idea that men have no self control, if they have an erection, is fallacious and this thread wholeheartedly supports that statement. Women may give ff false/bad/wrong signals. It is difficult for many men to be able to wend their way through that... but they do and they should be commended. That said, most men are not rapists so it makes sense they take no as no. I just was not ready for the female accusers of the article and some of the suggested possible causes here. If the title offends I am sorry. Nevertheless the thread has been mostly very positively against the title's assertion and that is extremely pleasing :-) I hope this explains my stance a little better mp
{Is this small change acceptable?] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mg Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:29 PM Jealousy? of a 14 year old being ogled by drooling creeps on the bus, 3 or 5 times their age. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Amos Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM Ebb: YEah, I was aware of the OP. At least a question mark would have been more tasteful... Non-consensual sex is extremely antisocial, treacherous, and offensive under any circumstance; no justification should stand. I can imagine a case where the consent was withdrawn after the fact, which could leave the male in a very awkward situation; but my advice would be to choose better whom he pursueth. A |
