BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:34 AM

Lox, Folkiedave's talking about the internet there. It is no different for any other form of relationship. If two people blend, they blend. If they don't, they have a problem.   

Do you assume that *all* people who meet via the internet meet purely for sex and nothing else?

I know a few people who've met that way who've found a deep and lasting love...and they have been able to get to know one another, via letters, emails, etc..in a way that may never have happened before. I think there are folks in Mudcat who've met that way..and remained blissfully happy too it seems. Ask them if they just turned up for sex? I'd doubt that was the story at all and they'd probaby be a bit miffed about that assumption being made.

I'm sure there are some who use the internet purely for sexual relationships alone, both men and women, just as they would use pubs, clubs or anywhere else. I think a man is just as much at risk as a woman actually, because she could be there with a knife in her handbag,for all he knows...but then again, that could happen even if he met her in a pub.

There are always ****RISKS***** in many relationships, no matter where they may begin. All I'm saying is be aware of those risks.

And Dave, there are dangerous men and dangerous women out there. So, surely it's just as wise to tell our sons about those women, as it is to tell our daughters about those men. Sadly, they don't come with stickers on their heads, so *that* is why you need to be careful.

And if you ARE one of those dangerous people, of either sex, then as I said, the chances are that eventually you will have to deal with the consequences of your behaviour, one way or another.

Don, you mean to tell me that in your lifetime, you've known relationships with a million women? ;0) Come ON, she was the percentage of however many ladies you have known, surely, not 'one in a million'.

I'm off to the Poodle Parlour now...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:32 AM

I am a great lover of the works of Jane Austen, Lox. As much of human wisdom there pretty well as in the Works Of Will himself. So I take my watchword at present from Elinor Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility, meeting her none-too-bright future brother-in-law and letting him witter on, "because she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition". Reached that point with you, I'm afraid. Just carry on without me there's a dear old fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 05:21 AM

""So, Don....why did you regard this woman as 'dangerous' and 'unpricipled'?""

Simply, Lizzie because she was the woman you see whenever you look at a young woman out enjoying life.

What you don't see, is that she was actually the one in a million exception, which proves the rule.

I would expect to meet that kind of woman once in a lifetime, and that is what has happened.

There are other possible consequences of her particular actions, apart from rape, up to, and including murder.

If, however, she had suffered any of these consequences, it is the perpetrator who would be responsible.

On a lighter note, I rather liked the fortuitously apt typo......"Unpricipled", I assume that might mean cheap.

LOL
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:57 AM

MtheGM,

I may or may not be a fool, but I haven't provided any examples that serve to contradict my own point of view as you have.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:53 AM

"Depends on the bloke."

You mean it depends on whether he's a rapist or not?

So if you bring a rapist home you deserve to be raped, but if you bring a non rapist home you don't.

Liikewise when you agree to go to his rooom.

How do you know who is a rapist and who isn't until you have been raped?

does inviting somebody back for a cup of tea say something different to inviting them back for a coffee?


It looks like you are agreeing that the the deciding factor in rape is not the womans foolishness, but whether or not the man is a rapist.


It would obviously be very naive and shortsighted to go back to a mans room for a drink when you only know him from the edited posts he has made online, but do you really think that would make her blameworthy if the guy turned out to be a rapist?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM

Hold on Lizzie,

You have stated that a woman who brings a man home or goes to his room or whatever when she doesn't kow him very well, is foolish and taking a risk that kind of renders her deserving of everything she gets.

Then when folkie dave says:

"If a bloke has travelled a long way to meet someone he has met on the web he might be expecting more than a cup of tea. Would she have led him on do we think?"

you say:

"Depends on the bloke. Depends on the woman. Depends on the cup of tea, I'd imagine. She may love 'builder's tea' in a grubby tin mug. He may love 'Earl Grey' in a flower covered china cup and saucer.

People have to have the right 'blend' don't they, Dave?

If they do, then I'd imagine their teapot would runneth over.

And if they don't, then I'd think their tealeaves could become terribly strained."

Why the double standards?

You have until now been unequivocal in your bombast.

Now suddenly you are extremely cagey and ambiguous.

Should I deduce something from this?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:33 AM

"Most men love and care about women in the right way, but there will ALWAYS be some who do not, and to openly, sexually entice those men is done at the woman's own peril."

... and that suggests that a woman knows she would be enticing a rapist, for only a rapist would go past NO or withdrawl of consent. I suggest no woman would entice that kind of man. No woman would know a man was a rapist until it was too late (with the very few exceptions of those women who have knowingly protected a rapist from arrest).

I am not advocating women not to be safe. I am advocating that no blame be attached to her if she is raped.

I, too, must go to work or else, like the poodles, I may find myself doing some tail chasing and going round in circles. I actually do not mind the circles as they are obvious to drum the message home it seems. No woman (or man) is to blame for being raped.

poodle tip for now :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:33 AM

I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her

Those ARE your words Lizzie and I am giving you a chance to confirm that they do not mean she was 'bound' to be raped.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:26 AM

No, Dave..I said my words. I did not say yours.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:24 AM

Yes, rape is inexcusable, mp, and no-one has denied that in this thread, as folks are saying over and over, but...so some forms of female behaviour are also inexcusable and that is what is being denied, strangely.

Also, I don't believe that ALL men are in control, which is why we need to make young women aware of the dangers of certain situations, as once, society used to.

There will always be some men who think and feel differently to others, 'dangerous men' and those men are despised by decent men and women alike, but to send a young woman out into the big wide world telling her that all men are in control, should be in control, MUST be in control nowadays, because 'it has been deemed so' and therefore she has the absolute right to behave HOWEVER she wants, purely because she's a woman, is bonkers.

Young women need to know there are higly dangerous situations out there, and you should avoid them as much as you are able to, NOT walk right into them, with a breathtaking naievity....or arrogance.

Most men love and care about women in the right way, but there will ALWAYS be some who do not, and to openly, sexually entice those men is done at the woman's own peril.

Maybe we need to start teaching young women a kind of sexual Green Cross Code, because at the moment, so many are just stepping right out into heavy, fast moving traffic, in front of huge cars that are being driven by men who do not have the capacity, or wish, to stop.

Anyway, time to disappear again, because how many times can we all say the same things over and again?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:17 AM

Oh, and if David comes in here a-moaning at me for coming back into this thread, tell him it's OK, as I'm a woman and have no responsibility to actually mean what I say at all and he has to have absolute sympathy and empathy with that, whilst letting me behave in whatever way I want to...

Of course you are, Lizzie, and I would never complain about your right to change your mind. What I would complain about is when you then start to scream shout and run around in circles about how badly done by you are when you brought it all on yourself. And before you feel an analogy coming on, telling you you to fuck off on an internet forum is nothing like rape. OK - So I have responded so I may as well pick up another couple of points -

So, what some are saying in here then, is that a woman should be able to walk down the street, stark flaming naked, wiggling her bum, boobs swaying in the breeze and NO-ONE should judge her for that?

I have not said. I don't think anyone has said that. I, and many others, have said quite categoricaly that she would be a fool. We also said she does not deserve to be raped for being a fool. But not you apparantly...

I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her, sooner or later...and if she was not prepared to accept that it was her behaviour in the first place that led to the chances of that happening, she should never have behaved that way in the first place.

"The conesquences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her" I have repeated it again because I did not believe it first time. So, you really believe she would have brought it on herself? That she would have deserved what she got? That any man unable to control his urges would be justified forcing her? Tell me that is not true - Please!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:08 AM

A man should have control over his penis. To suggest that men cannot is to do them disservice. It's an insult to suggest that men, when confronted with NO, or without permission for sex, would blindly carry on regardless. Rapists do that. Men do not. That is not to say I think it's okay for a woman to deliberately lead a man on with no intention of sex right up to penetration. But I also strongly bleive that a woman has a right to be able to change her mind (as does the man)

Men may feel peeved, they may even have the right to be peeved if they have been truly 'led up the garden path', but they have no right to sex. The majority of men (the non-rapists) know that and respect that. Only a rapist would push it further surely?

No-one can condone rape.

No more than one can condone a man being raped by a woman.

Rape is inexcusable. Period!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:04 AM

"I'm off to take Little Hawk's poodle for a walk now..give him some brominde...in his saucer of tea.."

And when he's lapped all his brominde up, I'll give him the bromide. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:01 AM

Depends on the bloke. Depends on the woman. Depends on the cup of tea, I'd imagine. She may love 'builder's tea' in a grubby tin mug. He may love 'Earl Grey' in a flower covered china cup and saucer.

People have to have the right 'blend' don't they, Dave?

If they do, then I'd imagine their teapot would runneth over.

And if they don't, then I'd think their tealeaves could become terribly strained.


I'm off to take Little Hawk's poodle for a walk now..give him some brominde...in his saucer of tea..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:49 AM

According to a post on the Archer's Board on Facebook 25% of relationships begin on the Internet nowadays.

If a bloke has travelled a long way to meet someone he has met on the web he might be expecting more than a cup of tea. Would she have led him on do we think?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM

From Don:
"I have always been glad that I reacted in that way, and I repeat, she was entitled to change her mind, even though she was a dangerous and unprincipled harpy."



So, Don....why did you regard this woman as 'dangerous' and 'unpricipled'?

I am presuming those words could mean that you expected her to have the right principles, thus NOT behaving in the way she did...and that you perhaps regarded her a danger....to men?   

And if I'm correct, did you regard her as a 'dangerous' woman because you felt that although *you* had the *correct* principles, others may not have been able to act with the same amount of control and she may have pushed them 'over the edge'?

Is that what you mean by 'dangerous'?


You see, the thing is, I feel that women who behave like that are also dangerous. They are dangerous to both themselves and to the men they come into contact with, and as such, they should in some way bear part of the responsibility of the *possible* eventual outcome of their behaviour.

Anyway, my thoughts on your words are purely *my* thoughts, and I am not meaning to portray your words in a way you may not have intended, but I'd be interested to hear why you described her thus.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:32 PM

The implication by MtheGM that some types of rape are somehow nicer or more justified is concerning.=====

Now, come on, Lox, you're not a fool ~ you know that saying some things are nastier than others doesn't, emotionally, imply that those others are ∴ "nicer": & to say it does, as you do here, is the argument of an unfair fool who has run out of decent arguments and is desperately falling back on frivolous & fatuous ones. You can do better than that ~~ I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:04 PM

As much as a lot of Lizzie's rants drive me up the wall, her sermons about feminine behaviour seem to have been to some extent grounded in the realization that a fraction of the men out there will prey on a woman that becomes vulnerable through a failure of judgement. But her last post, to me, pushes just that much further over the edge; it is really hard to read it without getting a picture of any number of poor, innocent men who would never have assaulted women if they had not been driven mad by evil hussies with their exposed, or wiggling, feminine parts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 09:08 PM

Not really Don

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 08:56 PM

Thanks Sorcha. I really appreciate that. I was beginning to think that I am the only person who can see that victims cannot be considered perpetrators.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM

Don, that is the FIRST thing that has prompted me to actually post here in ages! GOOD ON ya!

But I really doubt that Elsie will get it if she even reads it. I really don't think she can understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

""You know...all this non-judgemental stuff gets to me...

Once, we implanted wisdom into our children. We felt it was a right to hand that down....Now, we just implant contraceptives, and send 'em out there, with not one wise word echoing in their heads..

As grown ups we have absolved all responsibility for our children..and I talk their of 'society's children'....


I have far more sympathy for the truly innocent victim, than for the woman who has set out deliberately to cause absolute sexual havoc.""

OK!

So we now know that Lizzie condones rape for those women who do not behave as she would wish.

DESPERATELY SAD!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

""JUST because you are a woman does NOT excuse you from being a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral and amoral brat.""

And the fact that you are a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral, and amoral brat, does not and should not render you liable to rape.

There are a couple of categories in there Lizzie (not immoral, or amoral) which by your reckoning would open you up to the possibility of rape.

If you truly believe what you say, I hope you will take great care.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

""I'm sorry, but why the hell would anyone expect a woman who behaves like that NOT to be kicked out????""

I agree Lizzie, but why would any right minded person believe that, in those circumstances, it would be OK for her to be raped, and that act of violation would be justified upon the grounds that "She asked for it".

NO!....She did NOT!....She very clearly and unequivocally said NO!

What is so difficult about understanding that?

Please do NOT try to bend MY words to support YOUR agenda, because I do NOT agree.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

Good for you, Lox...and good for them too. A happy ending all round..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM

I think I need to take a walk with Little Hawk's poodles now, and bring a bit of humour back to my head, so I'll leave you to it, again.

Oh, and if David comes in here a-moaning at me for coming back into this thread, tell him it's OK, as I'm a woman and have no responsibility to actually mean what I say at all and he has to have absolute sympathy and empathy with that, whilst letting me behave in whatever way I want to...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

"So....you er....managed to 'convince' them, did you, Lox? ;0)"

More often than not no, but I was still able to have a fun time with them once it was clear that they were just enjoying my company and didn't want anything more and I was happy to give then a peck on the cheek at the end of the night and thank them for a good time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:59 PM

Come to Torquay, Lox...watch the town on an evening...Listen to all the locals tell you how they won't even go down there at night any longer...Come to the Hen Parties, we're famous for them down here, as the Mayor of Torquay likes to promote his town to the Hens and the Stags...

If only it were a fantasy, eh?


"The ones who dress to shock were often doing so to rebel and to hide their insecurities, and took a lot more convincing."


So....you er....managed to 'convince' them, did you, Lox? ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:43 PM

Jeddy,

I think you are absolutely right.

I think that these horrific ideas first get heard by most young people in the playground.

School bullies often come from abusive homes, and they will no doubt be asserting the same morality at school as they see asserted at home.

Girls negotiating the fine line between being a "slag" and being a "prude" - not to mention the countless other ways in which they are pressurized and bulllied by each other and by boys.

In my experience, the girls who dressed straight have always been the easiest and the filthiest in bed.

The ones who dress to shock were often doing so to rebel and to hide their insecurities, and took a lot more convincing.



Lizzie, all your "judgemental stuff" might be useful id it were grounded in reality and not just your fantasy of what young women "get up to" these days.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

I am not talking about a woman who 'has a drink' mp, nor one who wears a short skirt. There is nothing wrong with a drink or two, but a bottle or two, or three, or more is crazy!   Dressing in a highly insensible (is that a word?) way is also not the best idea....

I'm talking about a particular sort of behaviour, where a woman deliberately lures a man into believing that she wants sex with him..and especially the type of woman who does it deliberately, over and again...Sorry, but I have little sympathy for someone under those circumstances.


And all rapists are not the same, I'd imagine. Some are brutal, pre-meditated, evil bastards. Some are men who simply lose it, because of the behaviour I've talked of above. It does not make any rapist right, or innocent, or to be pitied, but it makes them different.

And I'm sure that'll go down like a lead balloon too, but that's how I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:33 PM

Lox, I'm afraid that the woman that Don spoke of did ask for it, quite literally, then she changed her mind....and she changed it to cause him maximum hurt...So, I'd presume she went into that particular evening with the SOLE INTENTION of doing what she did.

Can you not see what a despicable way to behave that was? Can you not see what a terrible thing that is to do to someone else? I doubt she ever expected to get raped, because she wanted to be in control...but at some point, a woman like that may well come up against the wrong kind of man, and he will NOT treat her as Don did.

Does she deserve those consequences?   

You think not.

I think that if she repeatedly behaved that way, then the consequences of her behaviour were bound to catch up with her, sooner or later...and if she was not prepared to accept that it was her behaviour in the first place that led to the chances of that happening, she should never have behaved that way in the first place.

As I have said before...if you don't want to risk danger, then do NOT put yourself into that position in the first place..and please bear in mind, Lox...that I am talking about one particular sort of behaviour, and not about women who are raped despite NEVER having put themselves into any dangerous situation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

Oh, Lizzie, I judge. Too much if truth be known. I just tend not to judge the same way as you do. On some thing I would, on others not. That is because we are different. All women, all men, all PEOPLE are different

Rapists are not different. They rape. They take what is not theirs. They rely on the fact that if they get caught they will meet people on the jury who hold opinions as you do about any girl who has a drink or wears a short skirt. They pray for your judgements to get them off or at least lessen the offence in some way.

Judge the rapist please NOT their victim is all I ask

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM

You know...all this non-judgemental stuff gets to me...

Once, we implanted wisdom into our children. We felt it was a right to hand that down....Now, we just implant contraceptives, and send 'em out there, with not one wise word echoing in their heads..

As grown ups we have absolved all responsibility for our children..and I talk their of 'society's children'....


I have far more sympathy for the truly innocent victim, than for the woman who has set out deliberately to cause absolute sexual havoc.

But, that's just lil' ol' judgemental me, I guess..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM

sorry again, i was thinking more the sense of justice in kids. of blaming the raped rather than the rapist.

for any other types of kid influence we shoud be talking on another thread. just so you know though, i think the press and music industry has alot to do with things. music vids, tv series.

enough, back on topic.

feel free to smack the back of my hand.

love
jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:20 PM

"If you INVITE trouble in, don't go crying to the world when IN it steps. Look to your own behaviour and make damn sure you NEVER behave that way again."

In other words - she asked for it.

She had it coming.


What bitter hateful folks lve in this world.


Lizzie, I hope you never ever come out to a club and get your tits out.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

Lizzie, having your own belief sytems, ethics and morals is not wrong. I believe in a lot of what you say as regards some female behaviours and them selling themselves short. But judging those that do not have the same values seems to be wrong. We have no idea about their life and their reasons. We only know our own. Personally I still think a lot of those women you freely condemn are actually looking for some of the love you have known. They are just going about it differently and for whatever reasons. For some women sex is love... in that it is attention for a few minutes. I have no right to criticise them. I have made my own mistakes in this life.

There still appears to be the suggestion that some women invite being raped. That is fallacious and wrong.

The majority of women getting raped are not as you describe. If you wish to harp on about women's morals and their degrading actions then I am sure you could set up a thread on the subject. This thread is about women being blamed for being raped...

Most here are in total agreement. Women (or men) should not have to carry the blame for the rape. They are NOT to blame for being raped.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:06 PM

"just thought it worth mentioning how far into childhood these attitudes can go. if we can make kids think about themselves being fat then surely their attitudes to other things start then?"

What do you think a little girl thinks of, jeddy, when she sees her mum drunk? What do you think she thinks of when she sees her mum dressed in a skirt that goes up to 'there' and a top that goes down to there?   What do you think a little girl dreams of being? Who do you think she wants to be like?

And if mum brings home every Tom, Dick and Harry, and plays Dick-ensian games with them, and she hears all that goes on....what do you think she'll want to be doing as soon as she is able?


Just another point of view....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM

"Prick Tease" is a frustrated mans term for a girl who he really wants to shag, and who he thinks he has somehow earned the right to shag, but who won't shag him."



No, it's not...actually. It's a term that even women used to use. And it was used because in those days women themselves looked down upon other women who behaved that way. Yes, we 'judged' each other..and now, of course, we live in the Day of the Emperor's New Clothes, where total stupidity reigns 'In the Name of Women'

mp, I ain't jealous, trust me. If I wanted, being a now single woman, I could go to any club down in town, get my boobs out and party like the rest of 'em. I *****cannot****** imagine ANYTHING worse! And I have felt that way since I was a young woman. I have always had self respect, as did my friends.

I refuse to sit on any fence. I refuse to be politically correct and not mutter and curse about things I highly disapprove of. As I've said before, I was inside, the day the world was sprayed with Stooopid Spray, so my brain still thinks for itself, rather than this pack instinct of craziness that is so evident in this thread!

If you INVITE trouble in, don't go crying to the world when IN it steps. Look to your own behaviour and make damn sure you NEVER behave that way again.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

oops, i feel like i have made a wee boo boo. sorry folks!!!!!

just thought it worth mentioning how far into childhood these attitudes can go. if we can make kids think about themselves being fat then surely their attitudes to other things start then?

as i said, i am sorry for any thread drift though, i didn't write what was on my mind properly.

forgive me?
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

"Prick Tease" is a frustrated mans term for a girl who he really wants to shag, and who he thinks he has somehow earned the right to shag, but who won't shag him.

It doesn't matter who is raped, be they prick tease, hooker or nun. I have equal sympathy with all of them.

Some rapes are compounded by other forms of violence, but the actual rape itself is the same for everyone - non consensual penetration - this act is the most damaging part of the process whoever is on the receiving end and whyever their attacker might feel justified..

The implication by MtheGM that some types of rape are somehow nicer or more justified is concerning.

Just as all murders are hideous, all rapes are hideous.

rape is not like other crimes, as it can only be malicious.

You cannot rape by accident, or in self defence, so mitigating cuircumstaances don't apply as they would in other "grey area" crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM

"JUST because you are a woman does NOT excuse you from being a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral and amoral brat. "

The words "Ivory" and "tower" are jumping out at me here

I suggest you do not judge all women either Lizzie because they do not do it your way! The argument you keep ramming home is beginning to sound almost like there is a jealousy within you of the freedom some women now have and express. That does not make them all as you paint them.

But going back full circle.... Even if a woman is all of the above, she should not get raped for it!

When did you come back by the way? ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:37 PM

Hardly surprising, jeddy. It's been going on for years, the 'grooming' of our children. I've spoken about it many times before...and it's part of the reason that so many women these days now dress as pervert's fantasies.



So, what some are saying in here then, is that a woman should be able to walk down the street, stark flaming naked, wiggling her bum, boobs swaying in the breeze and NO-ONE should judge her for that?

If you do, then you are condoning the grooming of our children. You are condoning so many women joining the world of pornography, even if they don't realise they are. You are condoning the sexualisation of women in a way that was never thought would happen when the dreaded feminism started up...

Women were supposed to be respected for their minds...Helllooooooo?

WHERE is the mind of a woman who is stoned out of her brain, legless on the pavement, boobs and bum blowin' in the wind...and WHY is she there in the first place? WHY does she WANT to get so stoned in the first place????? Are any of you asking that? Do you think it's because she can't cope with being told that it's her right to be out of control, and that she is almost *expected* to behave that way if she wants to fit in??????

I think Don not only managed to behave himself well in a sexual way, but that he did very well in just kicking that woman out, because if a man had done that to me, I think he'd have come into contact with a frying pan, or two, before I kicked him out.   

I'm sorry, but why the hell would anyone expect a woman who behaves like that NOT to be kicked out????

No woman has the right to behave that way to a fellow human being. No man does either.

There was a woman like that in The Sealed Knot. She'd go with any man, cause all sorts of havoc. She was known as The Prick Teaser, hated by the men and pretty much despised by the women as well. Whatever problems she'd had that caused her to behave like that, was no excuse to cause others anguish.

JUST because you are a woman does NOT excuse you from being a stupid, selfish, badly behaved, immoral and amoral brat.

Geez! Bring back your self respect, girls!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 04:33 PM

MtheGM wrote:

"But it has surely been repeatedly demonstrated also that however GUILTY the perpetrator may be, the extent to which the victim might be regarded as BLAMEWORTHY for the outcome can vary enormously according to the circumstances.

That is the distinction some of us have been trying to draw; ~~~ and I repeat that I do not think enough attention has been paid to these two distinctions: i.e. that between 'Guilt & 'Blame'; and that between the degree of either to be attributed in each and every specific case."

Where has it been shown that "the extent to which the victim might be regarded as BLAMEWORTHY for the outcome can vary enormously according to the circumstances"?

Could you cite the date and time of the post?


The hypothetical example MtheGM provided did not demonstrate this.

It showed that when a woman "permits" sex (after foreplay) she is wrong to cry rape afterwards.

No other hypothetical example has withstood any scrutiny either.

I keep reading posts about how there are grey areas, yet I have seen no example which supports these claims.

In every hypothetical scenario described in this thread, a clear point of consent or non-consent has been easily defined.

That point of consent or non-consent is the boundary beyond which rape can be said to have been committed.

I understand that in life there are shades of grey.

In the case of YES/NO I have yet to see any examples of scenarios that can't be described as CONSENTING/NON-CONSENTING, so I haven't seen any shades of grey between those two absolutes yet.

The clever response to me would be "what if she said MAYBE".

But this would be churlish and would still not present a grey area, as it would be possible for any witness to the act to identify consent or its absence from other indicators.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

don't know how revlevent this is but are any of you watching jo frost right now?

about half the 6 year old girls they interveiwed and showed different sized pictures of themselves thought they were fatter than they are and thought the skinniest of the oictures were better.

worrying or what?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mg
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM

of course it is no excuse for rape. It is something that can act to lessen the probability for not just myself but perhaps for the next woman wild crazy man sees, regardless of what statistics come up with. All men lurking about in the shadows are not genteel. Some are nutty as fruitcakes. Some have no impulse control. Many have violent natures that have not been curbed by nurtering families, success in jobs and with voluntary relationships with women. I wouldn't wave a red flag in front of a bull even if people tell me as I am sure they will that they are colorblind. We can't go out in public and display ourselves because it triggers a chain of biological events and there are people out there who can and do control themselves, at great discomfort sometimes that they should not be put through by someone with no intention of letting them near her, and some for biological reasons can not. Otherwise they would not risk going to jail, getting killed by angry relatives etc. We are playing with fire here. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:53 PM

"I lock my car against potential car thieves."
Locking your car is surely very different from allowing somebody to decide how you should dress, or how many drinks you should have.
'Inappropriate' dress (whatever that means) is no excuse for rape.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

"why the "discomfort", I wonder?"
I'm not really upset with you, or feeling that you need to apologize, MtheGM. I think it may just be that, when I've heard phrasing like that, it has too often been from men who believed that they lived in a world with a lot of "prick teasers" which to them could be any woman who acted at all friendly but who then refused to offer up anything that was grabbed for. So it's more of a superficial reaction. I'm not reading you as being a person at that level.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

what you posted MtheGm was -

"If all rape victims are to be equally pitied, does it not detract from the proper sympathy for, & rage that should be felt on behalf of, the victim of a real brutal stranger-rape ~ the very worst sort"~

" I don't think it fair to the victims of the worst sorts (you will surely agree that some are worse than others) should not receive more pity/sympathy/empathy/whichever·such·term·one·may·choose than"


If you are the victim of rape there is NO 'very worst sort'

If you are a nonconsensual partner to the act of intercourse it is likely to be a frightening, humilating and painful experience whatever the circumstances - whether that is by a stranger, an acquaintance, friend, work colleague, relative or even an abusing spouse!

To suggest that somehow only the victim of the former is worthy of 'proper sympathy' is grossly insulting to other victims

The victims of non consensual, forcible intercourse, whether male or female, are deserving of respect and sympathy and whatever emotional or medical help they may require as a direct result of a criminal assault.

For those who know their abusers they are much less likely to find understanding from people if the kind of attitudes you promote continue and, in addition, also suffer the feelings of lack of self trust and trust in male friends or family.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

I think the discomfort comes from somewhat dubious language like "prick tease" and "your bitch and my unfortunate". The basic problem is that there is this polarised characterisation of either the sexless innocent or the nasty, calculating, man-eating jezebel. It is as much a caricature as the notion of the slavering, voracious male who, once he's got a stiffy, MUST have his lust satisfied. Neither, I think, bears much relation to real life in 99% of cases.

Ruth, sorry you find the language dubious — but I tried to be careful NOT to 'polarise', and was at pains to point out that these designations apply only, as you yourself confirm, to 1% of cases (& I think your 99% probably an underestimate ~ probably nearer 99·9%). But there still does remain that ·01% of 'hard cases' ~ &, as they say, it is the hard cases that make the bad law. & if DonT persists in thinking they should all be treated and regarded exactly the same, then I say again, I hope it keeps fine for him.

Grateful to Bill D above for his support.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mg
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

It seems that there are people hear who are prepared to let rapists and potential rapists decide how we behave and dress - funny old world!


Well, I am one who does. I lock my car against potential car thieves. I work at modest jobs so I can get insurance against potential surgeries.

I think that we have to all participate in some limitations of our legal freedoms voluntarily in order to make the world safer for ourselves and others, realizing that there are people who are not quite all there in various capacities, that there are all sorts of people on drugs, there are people who have not been properly socialized and have no moral teachings whatsoever..that even if I as an overweight 60 year old female start dressing provocatively (and would not have much of an audience for it), it still makes the world less safe for a 15 year-old. I have an obligation to tell the 15 year olds what can happen if they dress like many do, or if if they are alone with young men (heaven forbid older ones)...that they are dealing with millions of years of evolution, that not all men will stop and not all can stop..those with brain damage etc. That they have the same duties that we had when we were teenagers and that is to tone it down, not flaunt it etc.

It doesn't mean for a minute that anyone deserves anything bad to happen to them but still we have to let go of the comfort of being either naive or thinking that because things should be a certain way that that is the way they are. It is a dangerous world out there and we have to make allowances for it and voluntarily limit our behaviors..just my opinion but pretty much standard thought for many cultures for many thousands of years. mg