BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

Ake says: This thread is also a good example of the "herd mentality" discussed a couple of days ago
Some posters are verging on the bovine.:0)

In other words they don't agree with him.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:42 PM

As one of the fighting 'predecessors' I will raise a glass to those who follow on too Lox - Slainté!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

"A person acting responsibly, does not get drunk and get into bed with a stranger."

Now there's a diistinction that means something.

Being responsible for ones-self is not the same thing as being responsible for being raped.


"Lads expect sex on the first date, as do the girls."

Not true.

Lads hope for sex, and girls feel under pressure to consent to it.

Studies have shown that young girls often end up in bed because of social pressure.


As for "the old ways"

Would that be the ways in which, up until 1991, a wife was considered to be the property of her husband and therefore unrapable by him?

Or going further back would that be the old ways in which women were paid less?

or denied an education?

or denied the vote?


Bollocks to that!


Young women these days - and I mean real young women, not fantasy young women that entice innocent young fantasy puppy dogs into their lairs before stoking them up into fantasy mindless slathering beasts - the majority of young women today are courageous, great fun to know, are not afraid to express their opinions or take on challenges, and are interesting rounded and honest.

More importantly, they are more in touch with what they are looking for in men. They know what they want emotionally and sexually and they are more likely to be choosy.

Not like in your day when they would slnk off under the boardwalk in blackpool or wherever it was, only to be raped by some twat with no manners.

Women talk openly, so their friends know who they are with, and they live their lives out in the open where they can be helped if they are in trouble.

The good old days were a time of much more violence against women, only it was never talked about as it was more accepted.

More power to the young independant self aware courageous women of today, relationships with whom are not ridden with cliches and platitudes, but honest open and meaningful conversations.

And a glass raised to their predecessors who fought and suffered the humiliation of men and complicit women to give our daughters the freedom and equality they deserve.

I love 'em all!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

This thread is also a good example of the "herd mentality" discussed a couple of days ago
Some posters are verging on the bovine.:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM

I have not mentioned your daughter at all. Now, back off, lady and get away from my son, because I will not enter into any discussion with you about him, mainly because I find your personal, intrusive questioning and outright lies about me deeply disturbing...

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:16 PM

"and yet she never seems to notice that in those days decent women never used the language she uses. What's up with that?"

Ah, but I never used to swear back then, Ebbie. I tell you what though, if you had to deal with some of these posters, all at the same time, you'd find that words starting with 'f' were the milder of the ones you'd choose. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:15 PM

"As I said, my son has fuck all to do with you. thank you."

Well, our daughters have fuck-all to do with you, for that matter, but it doesn't stop you from telling us what feral sluts and whores they all are. I don't want your son, or anyone else's, growing up to be a sexual predator who puts my daughter, or anyone else's, into danger. So it's important to me what the mothers of sons teach them. That includes you. So, have you taught him that NO means NO? Because I shudder to think of him absorbing all this misogynist, woman-hating shite from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:14 PM

Nope, read Richard's post....He came out with that one, not me...You were, as ever, a little too hasty in your wish to lambast me. I merely took up Richard's word.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

"once upon a time we protected our children, taught them the rules of self awareness and self restraint...

Now we tell them to go get a fuckbuddy?"

Do we? Blimey, maybe that's what you've taught your children. But it's certainly not what I've taught mine, nor has anyone I know.


We're veering into Lizzieana again, rather than the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

I've not ever been raped - although I've done some fast talking in my time - so I don't really belong in this thread. For the record I wholeheartedly agree that rape is never justifiable. For the record also I think it is possible that many of the youngsters that dress so 'provocatively' are youngsters - many of them virginal - who are trying out various personae.

But it does strike me funny that Lizzie Cornish harps on how it it used to be in the days when women had self-respect and thus were never disrespected, in a day when both sexes knew how to behave, a day when men were men and women were women- and yet she never seems to notice that in those days decent women never used the language she uses. What's up with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:09 PM

"So I hope you teach your son, repeatedly and firmly, that NO means NO."

As I said, my son has fuck all to do with you. thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:07 PM

"Sometimes, one or the other is not what they seem.

sometimes one of them is a con artist.

Sometimes one of them is a murderer.

Sometimes one is a rapist."


And sometimes, they're truly lovely men.

You know Lox, the unwritten rules of the old ways were there for a reason and that was so that men and women got to know each other before they leapt into bed, they got to like each other first, took things slowly...and for the most part, it often worked out well.

Now that no longer exists.

Lads expect sex on the first date, as do the girls.

I happen to think it's a crying shame, but hell, as Richard says, the brave new world is about fucking, right? So if you don't have a Fuckbuddy you sure ain't cool.

Sheesh!

Rapists have always been there, they always will be, sadly....but once upon a time we protected our children, taught them the rules of self awareness and self restraint...

Now we tell them to go get a fuckbuddy?

Heaven help us! ...but more to the point, Heaven Help Them!

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

"My son has nothing to do with you, or with this discussion."

Well, of course he has. You're the mother of a son, so what you teach him is at least as important as what any mother of girls teaches her daughters. You've been ranting and screeching about what the mothers of young women ought to be teaching their daughters, and how all young women are sluts and whores, but when it comes down to it, women are not the aggressors in 99% of rape cases. Men are. So I hope you teach your son, repeatedly and firmly, that NO means NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM

A person acting responsibly, does not get drunk and get into bed with a stranger.
If rape occurs, a crime has been committed and the perpetrator is a criminal.

I think that just about says it all.


Argue away.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:01 PM

"you teach them about love and respect. about saftey and awareness, yet on the other hand you are telling them to be scared everytime they leave the house!"

Pardon?   Where the hell did you read that, jade? Put it down, go find it and put it down on here.



"god help them if you discover they have got changed at a friends house and something has happened. although that would be different of course, because it would be someone you love."

Pardon, twice? You've lost me there. I've not mentioned my childrenn here so why are you doing that?


"lizzie, you lost my respect a long time ago. but now i am worried about you and the children you are raising."

Well, luckily, I won't be losing any sleep over that. As I pointed out to Joan, my children are nowt to do with this discussion.


"i thought we were getting somewhere earlier, i was mistaken. i ask you questions, ask your opinions, and you don't reply because deep down yu know what you're saying is a load of tosh designed to wind us all up."

I've replied to some of your points...I did not agree with some of them, I'm afraid, but I replied, perhaps not in the way you wanted me to though.

You are free to think whatever you choose about me, jade, but I find it sad that you have chosen to be so damned rude, but again, that is our decision and your responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:55 PM

"Let's all throw caution, self restraint, self respect, to the wind, shall we? Let's all show complete and utter selfishness towards one another, see each other as the enemy to be preyed upon...used as we want and then thrown away at the end of the evening, because hell, our lives are about 'having a great time, and to hell with any social standards!'""

This is a complete fantasy anyway.

The reality is that people have a social life.

They meet and talk.

They like eaach other.

Sometimes, one or the other is not what they seem.

sometimes one of them is a con artist.

Sometimes one of them is a murderer.

Sometimes one is a rapist.

trusting somebody who is being nice to you is a natural thing for a human to do.

Knowing whether or not that guy is a rapist is not something that happens till after the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

My son has nothing to do with you, or with this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

lizzie, you lost my respect a long time ago. but now i am worried about you and the children you are raising.

you teach them about love and respect. about saftey and awareness, yet on the other hand you are telling them to be scared everytime they leave the house! god help them if you discover they have got changed at a friends house and something has happened. although that would be different of course, because it would be someone you love.

you attitude disgusts me.

of course men are as 'bad ' as the women. they strut round town, shirts undone or off.

you have no interest in debate, education. just as long as you are the center of attenton. the only reason i keep posting is that if someone ever looked up 'rape' in google, and found this i do not want your rants to be the thing they remember.

i thought we were getting somewhere earlier, i was mistaken. i ask you questions, ask your opinions, and you don't reply because deep down yu know what you're saying is a load of tosh designed to wind us all up.
then when it reaches a certain point, you moan that we pick on you and get your white knight to show up to protect you from the big bad crowd.
then the madder you get the fouler your mouth becomes!
this is one of the things you have been ranting about, people being in control of themselves, you cannot even control yourself in type, i would hate to hear you in real life!

for anyone who knows me in real life will know i have a mouth like a sewer, but i am not the one band=ging on about girls acting like ladies.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:48 PM

When did Loving turn into Fucking?   

I missed that part?

I mean....???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:46 PM

"I mean, come on, come ON and tell me that men are free to behave in exactly the same way that *some* women are doing these days..yeah?

Let's all throw caution, self restraint, self respect, to the wind, shall we? Let's all show complete and utter selfishness towards one another, see each other as the enemy to be preyed upon...used as we want and then thrown away at the end of the evening, because hell, our lives are about 'having a great time, and to hell with any social standards!'"


So let me get this straight...you think that it's only, or even mostly, WOMEN who behave in this way?

"...if you have sons, do you sit at home thinking 'Holey Shite, PLEASE don't let him be taken in by some stupid and selfish woman who may wind him up, send out the wrong messages, then cry "RAPE!!" when nothing actually happened, other than she changed her mind and didn't want to lose face in front of her mates????

It happens!


And men get a bloody raw deal, if they're innocent, because their innocent names get plastered all over the media, whilst the lying toads who do that to them are hidden behind legal anonymity."


More to the point, mothers of sons, such as you, should tell your sons again and again and AGAIN that, no matter how much THEY might be goaded by their mates, no matter how yobbish and laddish they might be feeling in the heat of a pissed-up moment, No. Means. NO. Because, sad as ity is for blokes who get accused of crimes they've not committed, there are far, FAR more women who will never report their rape or assault, never talk about it, and who will contribute to the poisonous conspiracy of silence that surrounds sex crimes because woman-haters (of either sex) have told them they probably deserved or provoked or were somehow complicit in what happened to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM

"EVEN the dreaded feminists themselves"

I think by now we all know how you view women who have actually got off their bums and campaigned for equality in education etc Lizzie but thanks for the reminder of the contempt you hold many women in - it is obvious even without you spelling it out!

Many of these campaigners you despise so much are also the ones who have fought for the rights of people of other races, male AND female for 'equality of opportunity' too

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:42 PM

"You can't have one rule for one sex, and one rule for another,"

Nobody here has said that its OK for women to assault men, or that men are to blame for it when it happens.

One rule for both sexes.

The rape victim is NOT EVER respnsible for the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM

a fuckbuddy?

Oh fuck!

Yeah, throw love out the window, eh,Richard..'cos that way, there's no responsibility...again.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM

I think the thread may itself now start dying a death...

Statistics and the word "liberalism" have now been used... the death knell of discussion is upon us sadly. I wondered how long it would be and am glad we got to around 200 posts before it happened.

On one thing I do agree though. Name calling and singling people out will not change the issue. People do have differing opinions. I have not seen anyone agree that a rape victim should carry the blame... but there has been plenty suggestion they should carry the responsibility. That is what is wrong.

There is only one person responsible for a rape... the Rapist.

Clothes, time, place, position should have no bearing on putting the blame and responsibilty firmly where it lies... with the offender not the offended (victim).

She or he (victim), if they survive, will have long enough to ponder the happenings of what happened them. They need support and understanding, not finger pointing and moralistic judgements from those who would take the high moral ground and look down on them.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

Ake said:

""We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility."

Thread title:

"Some rape victims should take blame"


The gargantuan hideous stupidity of the above quote is so utterly absurd that I can hardly believe that I have just read it.


1. according to the title, we are indeed dicussing "blame"

2. Regardless of this, the distinction is completely false.

Who is responsible for this crime? who is at fault? who is to blame?


As for "All the stuff about dress is a bit of a red herring"

try reading the article that "we are discussing" (link in the first post) in which it says:

"One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink."

So we're discussing 2 things.

1. Does dressing provocatively make you responsible, or blameworthy, for being raped.

2. Does inviting someone you are having a nice time with make you responsible, or blameworthy, for being raped.

The article also says:

"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."

No they fucking shouldn't.

This idea that men are like werewolves, and once you let them past a certain boundary you are obliged to let them fuck you whether you have cold feet or not is utter bullshit and reprehensible in the extreme.

And this idea that "rape is inexcusable, but sometimes its the womans fault" is also rank bilge of the most spineless facile kind.


Just as Ake and Lizzie have the right to go about being dicks without being beaten up by the people they piss off, women have the right to expect not to be assaulted for accepting the offer of a drink or for choosing to wear a fun outfit.

Believe me, the element of provocation is consideraably higher in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:39 PM

It would be unusual for a prostitute to reach orgasm - so I gather from academic sources. But I do think you deserved a refund Bert.



More importantly I am pretty fed up with the old women who insist that women don't have sex, they make love. This is all part of the same claptrap about chastity being a virtue, and "No, not without a ring".

Wake up! Young women have discovered sex and can separate it from love, and have casual sex or occasional fuckbuddies. None of that affects their right to say "No" or "Yes".

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:31 PM

"As you are so fond of saying READ what I said. It is not difficult. I asked who was responsible for a rape."


Under what circumstances?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

Well, fine,Don...you just tell your daughters and grandaughters to get down there, strip right off, knock back the booze, lead the men on, be as gross as they want, in fact...do WHATEVER they want, because they're women and they can do that.....

....whilst preaching to men to have total self control at all times.

Strikes me that women need to show some bloody self control too, you know, some self restraint...

You can't have one rule for one sex, and one rule for another, because by your reckoning, and a few others on here, if it's OK for women to do whatever they want, then it's OK for men to do exactly the same, ain't it?

I mean, come on, come ON and tell me that men are free to behave in exactly the same way that *some* women are doing these days..yeah?

Let's all throw caution, self restraint, self respect, to the wind, shall we? Let's all show complete and utter selfishness towards one another, see each other as the enemy to be preyed upon...used as we want and then thrown away at the end of the evening, because hell, our lives are about 'having a great time, and to hell with any social standards!'

Let's just indulge, indulge, indulge.....

Do you want women to be safer??????? Or do you want women to carry on putting themselves at risk because of how they've been brainwashed into behaving?????

And tell me this....

...if you have sons, do you sit at home thinking 'Holey Shite, PLEASE don't let him be taken in by some stupid and selfish woman who may wind him up, send out the wrong messages, then cry "RAPE!!" when nothing actually happened, other than she changed her mind and didn't want to lose face in front of her mates????

It happens!


And men get a bloody raw deal, if they're innocent, because their innocent names get plastered all over the media, whilst the lying toads who do that to them are hidden behind legal anonymity.

You may wish for our young women to carry on dressing like hookers, I don't. I see very young teenage girls all over Torquay, who move seductively, are way to aware of their bodies, the power they have, they are way too sexual for such a young age, and they are dressed appallingly for their age. What the fuck their parents are thinking I've no idea!   They are a pervert's fantasy....and I find it hideously worrying that so many people on here seem to think that's perfectly OK. It isn't!

EVEN the dreaded feminists themselves bemoan what has happened, saying 'It wasn't supposed to be this way!".......

No, it bloody well wasn't!

But we are in the Age of Lolita, except Lolita can't handle it when things get WAY out of control, can she...so she changes her mind...but sometimes, she finds it's too late, and she's in one helluva pickle!

But never mind, we led her there, we told her it's FINE to dress like that, move like that, think, feel and breathe like that, because you don't want to be out riding horses, or sitting in the park with your mates, noooooo, you should be out riding men and snogging every stranger you can attach your lips too, because THAT is what having fun is like in 2010!

What a bunch of bloody rotten, irresponsible people we have become!

Yeah, let's relieve everyone of all responsibility. Nothing is anybody's fault at all!   We are all free to go to hell on a sexual handcart without any form of guilt or responsibility creeping up over the horizon.

No means no, right?   

Even if you've snogged half the room, agreed to go to bed, dressed like a hooker, fallen over sideways with drink, come out with the crudest things imaginable, no still means no...right? Because YOU are a woman and you have Rights!!   

Well, bugger that for a Game of Lolitas!

Tell our children and young people that their lives are in their hands. Their choices are exactly that, and if they make the wrong choice, then learn by it and never make that choice again. Tell them that it's dangerous to get legless, especially when you're wearing a legless outfit! Tell them it's dangerous to get into a taxi when you're on your own and blind drunk! Tell them there are men out there who'll spike your drinks, rape you without a second thought and if they see you already legless then you are a prime target! And tell them that those kind of men hang around late night pubs and clubs...

Tell them ways to maybe avoid the shite that could happen to them...tell them to be street aware, to walk in groups, to dress sensibly, to drink sensibly, to not lead any man on, to not get into bed with any man they don't know...tell them not to see the world through an alcoholic haze and that to wake up the next morning with a stranger next to you,who's name you can't even remember, is wrong and self degrading.

But most of all, tell them how very precious they are! Tell them how loved they are! Tell them that they are the world to you and that one day they'll meet the right person and that person will treat them bloody decently and love them back...Tell them, because a huge part of the reason why so many young girls are behaving like this in the first place is that there is noone out there to love them in the first place....and they're so stressed out with modern life that they can't bloody think straight!

Speak to them of love and trust and friendship, of honour and integrity, of men who are protective towards women. Tell them it's OK to be feminine and they don't have to behave like the worst kind of lager lout, because those in the media say they do.

But most of, most of all, never stop telling them that you love them and that they need to learn to love themselves, respect themselves.




amergin, if you can find where I've stated that 'it's ok for women to be raped' please put it down. I didn't say it so it may take you some time to find.

If you find the bit where I stated that I'd give rapists to the men of the village or the mothers, to deal with, please put that part down also, as *that* bit *is* in here.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:09 PM

OK. time for a funny (but true) story.

Many years ago (That's a prelude to excuse bad behavior), I was with a prostitute and things were going along just fine. Then I guess she came, 'cos she suddenly stopped and said we were done. I said 'I'm not finished'. She started pushing me away and said we were finished. So, having a reasonable amount of self control, I stopped.

Then my sense of humor kicked in and I started laughing. Actually at that time I needed the laugh more than I needed the sex.

The moral is...

Even a prostitute has a right to say no at any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM

""But it isn't, jade. It simply isn't. And as you know, it can happen to people who aren't dressed suggestively. The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly.""

There you go again Lizzie.

You seem to have missed the post further up, which quoted a survey result showing that only 4.4% of victims were, in fact, provocatively dressed.

Changing your attire reduces your chances of rape by, at most, 4.4 in 100.

What needs to change is the belief that NO can mean YES! And it is men who hold that belief, and it is men who need to make changes.

And yes, I do know how frustrating a tease can be, but that is not germane to the issue of men cultivating the self control to accept the rejection, and dump the girl if they feel so inclined.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

Hey, gnu - I quoted what you said verbatim -

If you put on the gloves and get in the ring and get hit, you are PARTIALLY to blame.

That is what I was responding to and don't really understand the big drama. I agree entirely but don't undertand how it applied to a rape victim. Are you saying they stepped into the ring? They are partialy to blame? If that is NOT what you are saying then I apologise unreservedly. If it is what you are saying then I stand by my response.

Lizzie -

dave, sorry, what was your question?

As you are so fond of saying READ what I said. It is not difficult. I asked who was responsible for a rape.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 PM

Guest 999, I never go anywhere completely unarmed.


Ake, Lizzie bears partial responsibility for the "abuse" that she has received here. It wouldn't have happened if she didn't make herself such a big target.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Further up the thread Royston says.
"We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility.

All the stuff about dress is a bit of a red herring, as is all the verbiage about family friends, husbands ect.
These are not the cases we are discussing

"you think some women deserve to be raped"
How many times have I read that on this thread.
Nobody said anyone DESERVES to be raped
The crime is inexcusible....I said that in my first post.

What prompted me to post at all, was the case in the newspapers of a young lady who met a young man in a pub...both got sloshed, went back to his flat, got into bed and had sex.
The two parted company, and the next day, the young lady went to the police an complained of rape.

Now that girl of course did not deserve to be raped...if she was raped, but in my opinion acted in a very irresponsible manner.

This thread is a very good example of "liberalism" in action, isolate the two or three who deviate slightly from the prescribed form of words, then bully and misrepresent what they say until they fall silent and give way.   That is not being liberal, a true liberal will read a post and if he disagrees with part of it will try to come to an understanding with the other party, not simply abuse them, as has been done with Lizzie here.
I dont agree with all she says, but her opinions are not "vile" or "hateful", she just sees things slightly differently from the rest.

Jeddy....nice to see your name again my dear, I've missed your question, but I'll go back and try to find it...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM

A mainstream myth is that a prostitute woman cannot be raped or sexually assaulted - some men have even described it analogous to 'shoplifting' - a simple crime of 'theft' !

To say that if a woman looks like a hooker she will be treated as one implies that, at least in the view of people who perpetuate this attitude to prostitute women, rape is somehow a lesser crime - and make no mistake it IS a crime of violence - if you are a sex worker, or even dress like someone's fantasy of one!


'Rape myths are gender-biased stories, which falsely assert that being a victim is more traumatic for chaste than promiscuous women'

'Rape myths dictate who qualifies as a true victim. Victims who do not fit into the stereotype of a 'Little Red Riding Hood fairy tale victim: a young, innocent female out doing good deeds who is attacked by an unknown stranger' may be seen as undeserving or may not earn the title 'victim' at all'

Get it straight!

The focus on the character and actions of the victim shifts attention from the question of why some people offend to the question of why some people are attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:29 PM

""If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker.

If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect.


It is not good enough for women to feel they can dress and behave however they want, and if anything happens, it's the man's fault.""

Do you really believe that crap Lizzie, or do you just like stirring up agro?

By your reckoning, no woman in a business suit, no eighty year old in her own home, no mum-to-be in a maternity dress, would ever be raped.

I've got news for you! It happens!.......OFTEN!

The point about rape is that, while it may have a sexual aspect, it is not about sex. It is primarily about power, and control over the victim.

There is NO excuse whatever for failing to respect a NO, regardless of how far things have progressed.

It is easy to form opinions based on stereotyping, and come to conclusions as to the stereotypical personality.

Extending that assessment to the point of convincing oneself that NO, in fact, means YES, and acting on that assumption, is entirely the responsibility of the perpetrator, and absolutely not that of the victim.

End of!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

Actually, Bruce, what Lizzie initially said was "If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker." And went on to blame the way women dress for them being raped, despite the fact that lots of research exists to say that this is not a major contributing factor. She also said that women who dress in revealing clothes have no self-respect.


Maybe we should all wear burkhas, just to make sure we're not giving out the wrong signals. Oh, that's right, Lizzie was ranting the other week about how women in Muslim countries are denied their self-expression by men who tell them what to wear...

But apparently it's okay for Lizzie to tell women what to wear.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

I figure you and I wouldn't deserve to get the shit kicked out of us anymore than a woman deserves to be raped. You and I would surely understand that some parts of town just ain't meant for folks that don't carry Glocks. It's about situations and reading them correctly. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM

"I never said any woman 'deserves' to be raped. I have said that some women need to take responsibility for their actions and behaviour, if they are leading men on and acting in a very 'in yer face' manner, giving out the wrong messages, deliberately."


It seems maybe you're looking for an argument, Amergin. That's what the lady said. The same would hold true were you or I to go to a rough part of town and get all outta joint when shit happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

So according to Lizzie, if I was a little drunk and horny...and saw a hot girl scantily clad, and thought to myself, well Lizzie said it was ok...and approached her...and propositioned her, because Lizzie said it was ok, I could drag her off to an alley and force myself on her....the girl would be comforted when I told her that Lizzie Cornish on Mudcat said it was justifiable....and then when the cops came....they would look apologetically at me, because I would tell them Lizzie said it was ok, but they would still have to take me in, because it was their job.

Then I would go before the judge, and explain that yes I did it, but Lizzie Cornish said she had it coming because of the way she was dressed. The judge then, I'm sure, would dismiss the charge because of the Lizzie Cornish defense, and I would walk away free.

Soon after, the supreme court would rule that the Lizzie Cornish defense was valid, and that all convicted rapists whose justifications were the same as mine would be set free, and their names stricken from the sex offender lists.

Then, Congress would in their wisdom follow through, because everyone knows that those drunk and stoned women, who are wearing next to nothing when they go out to the clubs, all have it coming to them, will pass the Lizzie Cornish Act, making rape legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM

"Don't leave the PARTIALLY out. It's part of the premise for the original hypothesis."

Gnu, with all due respect, this is utter bollocks.

I've gone home with drunk female friends and not so immediate acquaintances before and they've been drukn and flirtatious.

My instinct has been to flirt back, as male and female friends do sometimes when they have a healthy friendship, but ultimately to justify their trust in me and get them home and tucked in.

Sometimes I'll even spend the night in the same bed and nothing will happen.

At no point did i think "look at her, she's pissed and asking for it, a good raping would be justified here"

I think the snooty judges here are as guilty of objectifying women and forgetting that they are people with feelings who need love and care, as the rapists are.


Taking somebody home with you is not the same as signing a contract.

I would hate to think that Gnu or anyone else might say to a girl, who said to him "can we not, I don't feel like it anymore" that he was sorry love, but now you're in the ring you can expect what you signed up for.

In fact, sexuality is much more complex than that anyway.

To really enjoy sex, there needs to be a mutual spark.

If a guy is able to ignore that a woman is not enjoying it and shag her anyway, then he has a problem.

Again, this is not reflective in any way on the victim.


Women - and men for that matter - Have the right to change their mind and anyone who says otherwise is condoning coercion and violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

"Just because a woman doesn't abide by your moral code and judgements, does not mean she deserves to be raped."

I never said any woman 'deserves' to be raped. I have said that some women need to take responsibility for their actions and behaviour, if they are leading men on and acting in a very 'in yer face' manner, giving out the wrong messages, deliberately.



dave, sorry, what was your question?

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

Yes... I read them. Nothing in them contradicts what I have said....and... those are opinions drawn from various interviews and 'interpreted'.

This quote: "...issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies..." says something close to what I was trying to point out.

I will quote from ME:"Because there are many, many 'violent assaults' that do NOT include sex, we must account for those which do."

That being said, quotations from Journals of Psychiatry do not address my concerns that few psychiatrists OR Mudcat posters are taking into account the genetic/evolutionary component of sexual aggression.

My wife was reading a novel yesterday where a male character was responding to criticism that his behavior was not 'reasonable'.... he responded, "Why should a man be reasonable when he can get what he wants some other way?" ....**I** know why...as did Kant... but it is very hard to explain to the average person...and when that person is a hormone-charged male of low intelligence with low self-esteem, folks need to take care!
My concern is: No matter what you...or I.... believe rape is 'about', we need to have better thought out techniques for heading off such assaults before they happen! Since all the descriptions of psychiatric interviews in the Universe don't change the fact that there are dangerous men (and a few women) out there, it is of little use to bicker incessantly over whether 'provocative dress' is...or is not... a mitigating factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM

I try to do what Bill said, but... David el Gnomo. That was a low blow.

In a ring, there are rules. I a bed, no. So, if you get in a bed without a referee, that is as stunned as me arse. THAT IS WHAT I POSTED. READ IT.

Your post about me and what I have written do not seem impartial or genuine or even correct. Read my posts and don't twist my words. To do so detracts from your arguements, detracts from your credibility, does a disservice to rape victims, and, well, really pisses me off.

BTW, thanks for the heads up PM bud.

Now, seriously... play nice and discuss facts folks.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 PM

And another:
http://geshem.bi.org/patternsa.html

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

Here you go Bill:
From The American Journal Of Psychiatry.
Rape: power, anger, and sexuality
AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom


Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/11/1239

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:57 PM

I think, because I am slow typist, I'd be wise to be like gnu, and just read occasionally, since most of you are too busy nit-picking linguistic fine points of your own viewpoints to even notice I am here. I suspect that my points are too 'unsatisfying' and would take too much effort to digest for those who rely on a "no, they don't!" "yes, they do!" technique of debate.

Further, deponent sayeth not.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:55 PM

Genie... that is SO pervy. I'll have nightmares now lol

But as for guys leading girls on. Yes it happens and your investment in time with them totally wasted when you could have stayed home and had chocolate, say ;-)

Girls lead girls on too and I am sure some men lead men on. I guess it's part of the human in us.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:39 PM

If you put on the gloves and get in the ring and get hit, you are PARTIALLY to blame.

Sorry gnu but that is a really disingenious (sp?) premise. If you put on the gloves and get in the ring you are giving CONSENT. If you put on the gloves, get in the ring, change you mind and jump over the top rope it doesn't give your opponent the right to follow and beat the shit out of you.


DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM

Just checking in. I'd say we are gonna make a thousand posts on this thread.

Oh, BTW, my posts still stand... If you put on the gloves and get in the ring and get hit, you are PARTIALLY to blame.

Don't leave the PARTIALLY out. It's part of the premise for the original hypothesis.

Carry on.... I may check in again before post 1000.

Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

Mauve Pink [["Personally I believe it is wrong for a woman to lead a man on but that gives him no right to sex. Have you never ever fancied someone and then found beer breath, a bad comment, halitosis, sweaty socks... and changed your mind on that instant? You can be turned on and horny, but it can go in an instant too. This has to be about actual consent. Once NO is issued... no matter how tough it is on the guy, it should be taken as full withdrawal of consent and his most sensible course of action is to STOP immediately."]
Heck, yes!
I mean what if you're about to get it on and he tells you he likes Sarah Palin and Glen Beck!??
*g*


Let's also consider the flip side of the "led him on" issue.   Many times in my life I've had a really attractive, sexy guy flirt outrageously with me, display what seemed to be genuine interest, maybe even dance provocatively with me -- to the point where I was sure he was going to ask me out or the like -- but not follow through.   Maybe he was trying to sell me something. Maybe he was married and just liked to flirt. Maybe that game was some sort of power trip for him. Who knows?   Since men are usually bigger and stronger than I am, I probably couldn't have "forced myself" on him if I'd wanted to. But if I "got him drunk" and took advantage of that, would that be justified because he had been "asking for it?"

Just wondering.