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BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: SINSULL Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM Royston, The child appeared on a TV documentary (BBC?) about a school for Somali rape victims and girls rescued from the sex trade. Justice is handed out by Islamic militant tribunals. They are called courts. SINS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Ruth Archer Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM "If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker. If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect." Weren't you, just a few weeks ago, raging about women in the middle east who are not allowed to wear whatever they want? Who are compelled by men to dress "modestly"? If a Muslim man has no right to tell a woman what to wear, why do you? "Sorry, but women never used to behave like this years back, and we never got treated that way by men" So women were never raped before the miniskirt was invented? Rape is a late-20th century invention? Out of interest: you know the prostitutes who were murdered by Jack the Ripper, or by Peter Sutcliffe...did they "deserve it"? Had their profession made it all right for them to be raped and killed? And is it possible for a prostitute to be raped? "Yes, all men should show self restrain, but that's living in the cloud cuckoo land ain't it.." So if a woman is wearing a low-cut top or a short skirt, it would be nice if a man could control himself, but completely understandable and excusable if he didn't, and raped her? "....and women have raged out of control." by wearing provocative clothing? You really dislike other women, don't you Lizzie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Emma B Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM Avedon Carol is an American-born feminist, , civil liberties campaigner and a researcher in the field of sex crime, residing in England. She observes - "Although all existing evidence shows that actual rape rates have not increased since 1960, the moral right has successfully used higher rape reporting rates to con the populace into believing that society has become more violent, principally due to more openness about sexuality and the increasing refusal of women to be silenced. We were too cowed to talk about being sexually assaulted before the late 1960s; therefore, it did not happen." Rape, like the poor, has always been with us Lizzie despite your continual insistence that everything was just so much better in your mythical past. Women did just not report it as much as they were frequently met with the same sort of unsupportive or even punitive attitudes you espouse. 'If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker.' Are you suggesting that prostitutes have no rights to be protected against sexual assault Lizzie? Like the West Virginian Lawyer who, last year, failed to convince a jury that his 31 year old client who had been accused of a pattern of sexual assaults on 15-20 prostitutes during which he would threaten them with a knife and force them to have sex. Was innocent of rape as 'they are street tramps. And what happened to them was, at least in part, their fault' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM Rape definition in England and Wales just to explain some of it though Scotland is only men on woman. I am not at all sure on other countries mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:13 PM The Myth of Male Rape About Male Rape and Sexual Abuse I meant men get raped by men AND by women too mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Murray MacLeod Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM ..."Men get raped by men and women too" ... sorry, but does that translate to : "men get raped by men, and men get raped by women too" or does it translate to: "men get raped by men, and women also get raped by men" ??? If the first, then I don't geddit. How the hell does a man get "raped" by a woman ??? And as an aside, I might be out of date here, but as far as I recollect there is no such crime as male on male "rape". Assault, buggery, maybe, but "rape" as far as I recall (and I am talking legal definition, not socio-speak) is a male on female crime. Come in Richard Bridge, tell me I'm right ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM Lizzie, I am not saying all men are rapists. I hate the very idea. Most men if they came across a rapist would see he never did it again if they could. Most men are good... but there are lots who are predatory too. But I maintain a woman can get raped virtually anywhere on the planet. The bit about the miniskrt was using irony... not a serious suggestion. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM ""If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect." ...treated with respect" Lizzie are you implying that self respecting women never get raped? Or murdered? No-one has absolute rights over anyone else. As a woman I certainly know it and don't expect it. I also do not blame men for everything. Some of the power struggle women have had with men has been necessary. Not too long ago a husband could not be charged with raping his wife... but it happened frequently enough. Still does I suspect... :-( mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Bert Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM I agree with mp on this one. If a woman says no then a man should stop, and of course a REAL man will stop. Just because a thug won't, doesn't make it the woman's fault and it doesn't make the thug right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM The concept of sexual display is common among animals, and humans are not an exception. But I don't think it takes a scientist to determine when a woman, or a man, is putting forth a sexual display. The response is what is in question here. I don't think there are many here among us who would disagree that a woman in a see-through negligee is putting forth a display. In a private setting, that activity is completely appropriate. In a public environment, it is inappropriate, and I believe such inappropriate public display tends to demean the displayer in the eyes of the opposite sex. An argument can be made that such clothing stimulates rape, or doesn't. But I don't think there's really too much argument about what constitutes provocative female attire. Prostitutes generally adopt provocative attire as a uniform and an advertisement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM "For many women that is literally anywhere. And heven help her if she is in a minskirt and looks attractive..." No, I disagree with that. It is an insult to men to say that. ALL men are NOT rapists. Most men would kill a man they saw doing that to a woman. For way too long men have been seen as 'the enemy'....and women have raged out of control. If the consequences of that are that women now are being shown little respect, then they need to look at themselves for the answers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM "If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect." ...treated with respect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: akenaton Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM Taking risks is wrong, if it results in a tragic outcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker. If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect. It is not good enough for women to feel they can dress and behave however they want, and if anything happens, it's the man's fault. The responsibility is a shared one, I'm afraid..and if you are so sozzled that you can't even remember being raped, well, I guess it's way past time you changed your lifestyle. Girl Power has been WAY out of control for way too long. Women do not have endless 'rights' whilst men have none. Yes, all men should show self restrain, but that's living in the cloud cuckoo land ain't it..and if you're stupid enough to be stupid, then take on board what can happen...and don't go bleating if it does. Sorry, but women never used to behave like this years back, and we never got treated that way by men, as in sex being almost expected on a first date, because most people got to know each other first. We've removed all the safety barriers..and women have been told they have absolute rights to all things. They don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM "Placing yourself in a situation where you might be raped is wrong" For many women that is literally anywhere. And heven help her if she is in a minskirt and looks attractive... Women do not sell raffle tickets to be raped. It happens all over the place, often by someone they actually have known for some time, so there is no safe place vis a vis she might get raped anywhere and at any time. Her fault? I think not. The person who decides to rape her is the wrongdooer... period! mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Janie Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM Taking risks may be stupid, but not necessarily wrong. Assaulting a person is wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: gnu Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM I think we're talkin bullshit. Rape is wrong. Placing yourself in a situation where you might be raped is wrong. gnightgnu.... have fun kids... see you in a thousand posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:46 PM "We are talking heterosexual here, aren't we ???? " Men get raped by men and women too. Rape is rape. The gender matters not though I would suspct male rape to be even more under-reported than female rape. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Janie Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM Ake, I don't think intentionally assaulting some one equates with having some one one stumble out in front of your car. It would equate with intentionally trying to hit the person out in the middle of the street, regardless of why the person was out in the street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM provocative [prE'vQkEtIv] adjective acting as a stimulus or incitement, esp. to anger or sexual desire; provoking BUT it makes no mention as to intention to invite intercourse or rape. You said it yourself... much of the time it is as others see it. If men see a girl who has a lovely body, even being inviting, that does not mean she is asking for it. If I saw a man buying condoms in a chemist I would not immediately think he is after having sex with me or about to go out and rape a woman. He is 'going eqipped' by his provocative actions? Why should men automatically think a girl is up for it because of how she dresses? Women often dress for themselves and not for men. Yes, we like some of the attention, as men like the looking... but rape should never be the outcome. The flirty, fashion should be kept for what it is. Not an invitaion. If Toyota advertises it's new car does that mean it's okay to steal one because it looks good? mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Royston Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM SINSULL: "I am more shocked at the Somali court who ruled that the rapist of a seven year old girl was innocent because the victim wore a short skirt. That is obscene." Interesting, Sinsull, what is the source for that. I wasn't aware that Somalia had any functioning government, let alone courts that make findings on anything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Murray MacLeod Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM ..."I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault (and I extend that to men who get raped too)" ... " men who get raped "??? We are talking heterosexual here, aren't we ???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: akenaton Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM If you walked into a motorway with your eyes shut, you are responsible for putting yourself at risk AND causing the accident....unless you were very very lucky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM Perhaps the man is being stupid if we women are so stupid as he is opening himself to all sorts of allegations and charges. If the man said "this woman is plainly drunk, I am not getting near her" perhaps she would just fall asleep and feel really bad in the morning... but no crime has happened. But just in case anyone accuses me of being biased. I also think that any woman who makes a false rape claim (and I do not mean women's whose case cannot be proven as being seen as her making a false accustaion), then she shoudl do the time the man would have got. I have seen what a malicious rape allegation did to one man and his family. It's affects were equally vicious to him as a rape would have been to her... but obviously very different physically. No women should ever just cry rape if she is in the wrong. Nevertheless... going into someon'es home should not bee seen as carte blanches permision for sex mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: SINSULL Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM No means No. Rape is rape. I believe we would all agree that a woman who puts herself in the bed of a man she hardly knows is at best acting foolishly and recklessly with her own safety. I wonder if the numbers reflect a lack of sympathy for the situation rather than a denial that a rape has occurred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM "I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is." Oh come on! I saw a teenage girl today in the supermarket who had a shirt open to below her breastbone, and her breasts prominently displayed.She was chewing gum and gliding on her coaster-wheel tennis shoes. She was with her Mom, and my guess is she was about 15. Are we going to be so politically correct that we can't say that a girl who wears skin-tight jeans 5 inches below her navel, a T-Shirt that says "Spank Me...It's my Birthday" and is split down the center isn't dressing provocatively? I'm not saying such displays invite rape, nor am I saying that rape is ever the victim's fault. But for Christ's sakes, do you cut your leg and go swimming in a shark tank? A combination of the aforesaid wearing of provocative clothing, coupled with the wrong people in the wrong place, and your chances are definitely and significantly increased that someone will at least take you up on the spanking offer. A woman who dresses that way is perceived by men in a certain way. You can believe that or not, but most men know what I am talking about. She's expected to behave in that same fashion. The full response to her will depend on the man involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Janie Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:32 PM We are each responsible for our own thoughts, feelings and behaviors. Nothing more, and nothing less. If I choose to go for a jog through the dark alleys of a major city late at night, I am making risky choices, and I am responsible for putting myself at risk. However, if I do get mugged or assaulted, I am in no way to blame for the assailent's decision or actions to assault me. If some one gets up in my face and starts yelling insults and spits. Chances are I am going to feel really angry, and most people would understand why I was that angry. If I haul off and punch the person, some would say it is that person's fault for getting in my face. I say 1. I am responsible for my emotions. No one "makes" me feel whatever it is I feel. 2. No one but me is responsible for my actions. The person in my face did not make me punch them. I am responsible for my own impulse control, or lack thereof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: akenaton Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM Gnu didn't say it was an excuse! he said it was bloody stupid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Bert Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM Not wise maybe, but that is not an excuse for raping her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: gnu Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM WHAT? A woman gets into bed with someone she doesn't know and trust... you think that's okay? I think it's very stupid. I think she's stupid, I think her parents are stupid... it's just stunned as me arse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Bert Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:19 PM No gnu, If I get into bed with my wife and she is not in the mood then NO still means NO, and STOP means STOP, however far along we are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Janie Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM I disagree, gnu. No means no, regardless of when it is said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM If they get into bed with the assailant- good heavens, that is consent! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: SINSULL Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:11 PM I am more shocked at the Somali court who ruled that the rapist of a seven year old girl was innocent because the victim wore a short skirt. That is obscene. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: akenaton Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:10 PM I haven't read the article mp, but I feel it may have something to do with the need for personal responsibility. Rape is a hideous crime and can never be excused. I dont think anyone in their right mind would attempt to excuse it, but we must all at some point take some responsibility for our actions. We would not, for example, walk out into the motorway with our eyes shut; and in the same way, women or men should avoid getting drunk and allowing themselves to be taken to a strangers home, alone. The crime is still inexcusible, but in cases like these the victims are acting in an extremely irresponsible manner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:08 PM "Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility." The BIG issue I have with that is that a great many women actually go for kisses and cuddles.... it can happen in a bed too. Are they to be raped for it? Lots of women are looking for loving even when they may appear to be being sexual. It's not really rocket science... Date rape using drugs is an offence. Is alcohol not a drug? mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: gnu Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM "Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility." That is as far as I read.... and I agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: Bert Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM Right mp, NO means NO, wherever and whenever. |
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Subject: BS: Some rape victims should take blame From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:53 PM ... and this is from Women! I am really quite devastated by such an article. Just as I type this there is a programme on about Hate Crimes Against Disabled People on Panorama (BBC1). That in itself is quite depressing but then I saw the above artical and it has stunned me. I am not sure about the US and other larger western countries, but does this happen everywhere... The victim being blamed for the crime against them? It happens a lot in the UK. But what has amazed me the most is that it is women who have been so judgemental in this survey. I agree that we, as women, have a duty to ourselves to act responsibly and try to be as safe as we can. Perhaps getting drunk so much that you have no idea what is happening is dangerous. But that does not mean it is okay to be raped. Likewise with wearing certain clothing. I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is. The definition would depend on who was doing the defining I suspect. You should be able to wear what you want without any implied message of 'rape me' coming across. I guess the thin line is that moment when a woman decides to get into a man's bed (for want of a better term) but, even then, rape should not be seen as a given. Most men are responsible themselves. Some will prey on drunken women and some will go further with it, but most are not in that bracket. Lots of girls in certain clothing who are drunk go to men's houses. They do not come away raped. The argument that men should be very careful if taking a drunken woman home is a seperate issue. The men could be drunk themselves for that matter. Rape is far to high a price to pay for a night out. I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault (and I extend that to men who get raped too) What are we doing wrong here? The words "cart", "before" and "horse" spring to mind. mp Sorry, folks, but we've had far too much impersonation in this thread. No additional Guest posts will be allowed in this thread. If you're not logged in, you're not allowed to post. |
