BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

If memory serves tomcats are particularly nasty little things. Their penises have a barb like structure on it so that when they ejacualate and then withdrawn, it makes the female cat ovulate. But the bite he gives while mating may also stimulate ovulation. Hence why a cat can give birth to so many kittens all of different types. Each one is the result of a seperate copulation. Withdrawla often makes the female cat scream

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:17 PM

Amos,

remembering that the current discussion you and I are having stems from this comment.


"All this brouhaha is largely due to a confusion between responsibility (an active causative mind-set) and blame (a passive received flow from others)."


I have shown that this statement is flawed, as the type of responsibility which is relevant to the subject of this thread is not as you describe, and the type you describe is not relevant to the subject of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:15 PM

Rape also happens in amphibians....

Look to your local ponds around now and you may see female frogs and toads, some of which are drowned, being totally immersed by gangs of maurading males trying to secure a mating and get amplexus (the froggy grip for sex).

Yes, indeed, if are applyinf human terms to what goes on in many animals... rape is much in evidence.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

999...

Sexual dimorphism and allometry between males has developed evolutionarily in some species to see that the males are actually bigger then the females, but also there is competition between the males size so they can fight each other to get a female.

Some dimorphism is reversed, where the female is much larger than the male, but competition can still take place between the males to secure a mating.

You then enter a world of resource holding power, game theory, evolutionary stable strategies, etc etc. At the centre is very often first mate sperm priority (sperm competition at work).

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:05 PM

Amos,

No I didn't.

The tone of my posts to you are not remotely accusatory.

I have taken issue with erroneous and irrelevant use of the word "responsibility"



"For about the third time I am not in ANY respect implying that the victim of a rape is responsible for the action of the rapist."


I have never said you were.


I am saying that this is a meaningless observation to make in the context of this thread, as this thread is about asking "is the victim partially to blame in some cases."

ie does the victim bear some responsibilty for the rape occurring.


The answer is that no she doesn't.


To clarify, - her actions, for which you rightly state she was responsible, were not responsible for the rape happpening - ie they did not cause the rape.


In the sense that you describe, every rape victim is responsible for being raped, and every murder victim is responsible for being murdered.


This represents plain and simple misuse and misunderstanding of the word.

Do you understand my point?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM

"Boy, I tried to research that question (rape in non-human animals) and found enough violently racist vile evil to turn my stomach twice sideways and once back-to-front. But no evidence of non-human rape. Somebody with better google-fu will have to take over."

Some would argue that rape is a human construct and that animals behaviour cannot be applied to human law. Nevertheless, many animals do get raped.

There are enough charges of humnans having sex with animals. That has to be rape as the animal certainly cannot consent for starters. Lots of female animals get raped by males, both vertebrate and invertebrate, especially where sperm competition can be demonstrated. Mammals, birds, many invertebrates, get raped by males seeking to secure the insemination of the female. She is not always willing but is often the only way she can get rid of the male is to have sex. He then goes and she may get a chance to have a meal of something to increase her fecundity. Randy Thornhill did a rtehr good book on the subject of Animal Coersion and its bases. Coersion is often a eumphamism for rape.

Google Animals + rape + coersion to get to some references

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

Lox, et al:

For about the third time I am not in ANY respect implying that the victim of a rape is responsible for the action of the rapist.

It is, however, a fact that she is responsible for being where she is. You keep shifting this around to some complicated transfer of blame. It is NOT. It is simply a fact.

There are unique decisions that both the rapist and the rape victim make, a long chain of them, that result in their intersection under the circumstances of the event.

If you cannot break out of the "responsibility as blame" channel of thought, what I am saying will not make sense. Accountability is only blame in the hands of petty minded authoritarians.

I have no disagreement with your attribution of blame for an act of rape. No contributing factors stand with any weight in contrast to the overriding action of the perpetrator.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

I saw something similar in San Francisco (one of the parks) between a male and female duck. Her neck was bleeding like a sonuvagun.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

Ducks, jeddy

I remember seeing loads of ducks being er...set upon by drakes, in Regent's Park years back. There was a shortage of lassie ducks at that time, so the fellas became very aggressive and that's what happened. Many drakes were attacking one duck at a time. Very distressing to see.

Happens here too

Tom cats.

My dear little cat Tilly had a very bad time once. She came in terribly distressed and terrified. She was dragging her back legs and obviously in pain. We took her to the vet, a lady vet that day...She examined her, then tears filled her eyes, and she said "Your cat's been raped"....She said she'd never seen anything like it before, as it was such a vicious attacks, bites, claw marks, teeth marks...

We took her home and gave her lots of love, but she wouldn't go out for the next 6 weeks or so...just sat by the window.

That tom cat was horrendous, he nearly bit the nose off her brother, Tom...just missing his eye. The vet at that time said he'd never seen teeth marks so deep. He had to stitch his nose back together, made a pretty good job of it too. Tom cats can be very vicious.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

Found a site that said it does happen with geese, ducks and dolphins. Another site said that it happens with other creatures, but the female will 'fight' the male off unless there is a strength difference, which usually there is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM

Boy, I tried to research that question (rape in non-human animals) and found enough violently racist vile evil to turn my stomach twice sideways and once back-to-front. But no evidence of non-human rape. Somebody with better google-fu will have to take over.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

No probs Jade.

That comment was aimed at somebody else, who obviously found my posts not to his liking.

I could care less.......But not much less.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 06:21 PM

i appreciate you answering, i am sorry i felt the need to ask you in the first place don.

can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned that rape in mammals is quite high? can we have some details please??

i always thought that it is the famales choice, as they have to stand there and let the males?
maybe i am wrong, but have never seen of heard anything about that on the nature programmes.

thanks
take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

""I would add. Don, that some of the sexiest songs I know are performed by folk artists. I mentioned 'Cuckoo's Nest' by Steeleye Span before. Would Maddy Prior be responsible for turning a young mans thoughts to 'Ruffling up the feathers?'""

And this is relevant, because...............?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM

Thank you DeG.

If you had been paying attention you would have noticed that I did indicate that I wanted no further discussion quite some time ago, since when I have felt obliged to answer queries from people whom I respect, on the subject of that incident.

If you are bored, I suggest that you are maybe in the wrong place.

Don T. (who quite liked Jackanory)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM

Nobody is excusing rape.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:41 PM

I would add. Don, that some of the sexiest songs I know are performed by folk artists. I mentioned 'Cuckoo's Nest' by Steeleye Span before. Would Maddy Prior be responsible for turning a young mans thoughts to 'Ruffling up the feathers?'? Again. There can be no grey area. The line must be that rape has no excuses.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

""The victim of a rape is not responsible for the action of the rapist. But she is entirely responsible for every step of her life that brought her, through a chain of decisions and actions, to the place where it occurred.""

Remarkably dangerous territory Amos.

1. The girl in tight skirt and see through top, at a disco, is reponsible if some bastard spikes her drink, and rapes her.
2. The woman who arrives home, disturbing a burglar, is responsible when he decides to rape her before leaving.
3. The woman in a business suit and overcoat, who is grabbed off the street, and raped in the nearest front garden, is responsible.

And on, and on.........

I know damn well that isn't what you meant, Amos, but it sure as hell is what you said.

Time for a re-think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:27 PM

Remember the BBC children series 'Jackanory'?

Every time I see some long winded posts about 'my experience' the theme tune goes through my head. Jackanory, jackanory, jackanory, dum, dum.

Wonder what made me think of that?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:20 PM

Amos

"Who, then, was responsible for that choice, with its remarkable life-saving consequences for him, and such catastrophic ones for the friend who requested the swap? It is no good pretending he was in the grip of destiny or divine powers; he made the decision he made, and the consequences rolled out as they did."

Indeed,

But if someone were to extend this reasoning by saying that therefore anyone who swaps flights is asking to crash into the sea, and if they do crash into the sea then they only have themselves to blame for swapping flights, then that would clearly be an absurd position to take, as the crash itself was not a consequence of the swap.

You have correctly identified that for one person, swapping flights possibly saved their life, while for the other, it was a decision that led to their death.


Let us apply the same even handedness to the thread topic, and consider a scenario where a woman who usually goes out, decides one night to stay in and have a quiet night in with a cup of hot cocoa instead.

There is a knock at the door and a man she knows comes in and ultimately rapes her.

If she had dressed up, gone out and had a few drinks with her friends, he wouldn't have found her at home and the attack wouldn't have happened.

In terms of the type of responsibility of whih you speak, she is responsible for putting herself in that situation.

The employee who is raped by her boss is responsible for being in the office at the wrong time.

But neither of them, nor the girl who is out having a drink at a club, are any more responsible than each other for putting themselves in situations where they were raped.

And all of them equally bear no responsibility for the actions of the rapist.

My position still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:48 PM

I would end any staying over trips. I would dress in my pink fluzzy slippers, try to find out where the girl was drinking and go there and mortify her just by my presence. And I would turn in taverns etc. that sold drinks to 14 year olds. I would also wear pink fuzzy slippers and rollers in my hair and sit next to my daughter in expensive private school and just watch her behavior change after that. We have one great power and that is to embarass kids...use it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:41 PM

"By the time I married, in 1965, we were well into the free love, permissive society years of "Swingin' London", which Lizzie claims never happened."

Nope, I never said that. I'm 20 years younger than you, Don...and things had settled down a little by the time I was 17.


"I think Lizzie got on the train rather late, and is more than somewhat jealous of those who got the better seats."

Where is this 'jealousy' idea coming from, with you, Don?

It's got nothing to do with that at all! It has *everything* to do with Maternal Concern though.

You know, just yesterday I rang a friend up, not spoken to her for a while...we got nattering, she has one child, a daughter, aged 14. After she'd told me about how much she's changed, what a 'teenager' she's become, she got all choked up. When I asked why she said that about two weeks back she'd got a phone call from one of the other Mum's, with whom her daughter had been staying over..She and this woman's daughter had been drinking, vodka. They'd both drunk so much that they ended up in hospital, stomach's pumped etc..She's worried sick about what lies ahead for her daughter, as the crowd she's in with at present are lippy and dress like 25 year olds...

Her daughter goes to a private school by the way, loadsa money around....but it makes no difference which side of the tracks you're from any longer, the pressure on our children is exactly the same...

So no, let's clear this up in your mind, that I am truly NOT jealous of young people, but I am deeply concerned..

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:33 PM

""But as to levels of condemnation of rape, there is one threshold and then a gradation. Every rape is a rape and deserves to be condemned and punished as one. Then there may be degrees of aggravation, the use of additional violence, the addition of categories of forced acts, the journeys into other avenues of sexual behaviour (DPP -v- Bourne)""

Agreed Richard, as long as it is made clear that the distinction is not "bad, worse, and worst", but "Worst, Wost doubled, and worst redoubled".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

My late father in law was a Navy pilot flying out of Pensacola FLA just after the war. A friend of his, a co-pilot, who was slated to fly one evening, asked him to fill in for him so he could keep a date with a lass of whom he was enamored; in exchange he would fly my FIL's training flight the next day. Anything to help a friend, within reason, my FIL agreed and flew the training flight in the place slated for his friend. The next day a training flight of five TBM Avengers took off, with his friend flying one of them in his place, as agreed. It was 1945, December 5. The entire training flight of five Navy TBM Avengers--Plane #s FT-28, FT-36, FT-117,FT-3, FT-81 with a total crew of 14 souls, headed out over the Bermuda Triangle region and disappeared. Some of them were found decades later on the bottom of the Gulf.

Now, just suppose my father-in-law was a grumpy antisocial sort instead of the clear-eyed and compassionate man he was, and had told his buddy to go pound sand. By a single choice his entire life hinged away from catastrophe, and he didn't even know it until the flight failed to return the next day.

Who, then, was responsible for that choice, with its remarkable life-saving consequences for him, and such catastrophic ones for the friend who requested the swap? It is no good pretending he was in the grip of destiny or divine powers; he made the decision he made, and the consequences rolled out as they did.

Every man who finds himself in the path of a bullet made a decision not to stay home and read Kiergegaard or polish his car that night.

Those are the kinds of decisions for which only the individual is responsible. I hope this little story makes my point a little clearer, as I hate to have it altered or distorted just because it wasn't understood. That this truth, if I may call it that, is uncomfortable does not lessen its truthiness... :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:21 PM

""Sorry, I missed your post to Jade in which you explained the incident to which you have been referring.

Would it be fair to say that the deciding factor when you threw out the woman in your home was not that you didn't get a shag, buit that you were being insulted by somebody who you had placed a certain amount of trust in.

If somebody came into my home and decided to entertain themselves at my expense, by attempting to humiliate me or by any other means, I would also throw them out.

Being sexually humiliated is extremely unpleasant.

Just ask a girl who has been raped!!!!!!!!!""


Exactly, Precisely, and Succinctly encapsulating my thoughts and feelings at the time Lox.

Jade, just for information, the incident took place in 1958, when I was seventeen years old, a callow youth, brought up in the last years of an era in which sex before marriage was frowned upon.

It was an education for me, which coloured my reactions to the opposite sex, destroying my trust in women until I met my wife to be, nearly two years later.

By the time I married, in 1965, we were well into the free love, permissive society years of "Swingin' London", which Lizzie claims never happened.

I think Lizzie got on the train rather late, and is more than somewhat jealous of those who got the better seats.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

Amos,

Reread my post.

I have made exactly that distinction.

""responsible - Answerable for an act performed or for its consequences; accountable", (Wiktionary) "


This refers to the rapist, and the act is rape.


And it is not a consequence of a victims behaviour.


""having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action:" (American Heritage)"


This refers to a person being accountable for their own actions - it says nothing about being about being responsible for the actions of others.

It does not make a rape victim responsible IN ANY WAY for the rape committted against them.

I did not say that a passenger on a crashing plane is at fault, I showed that that would be a ridiculous line of argument to pursue.

And I compared it to the ridiculous argument that a rape victim is ever responsible for being raped, which has been advanced on this thread by way of misapplication of the "self possession" form of responsibility.

The definitions I provided are in accordance wih the ones you have provided and they suppport my view.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:05 PM

""I'm off to the Poodle Parlour now..""

Hope they do a satisfactory job on you Lizzie.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:52 PM

OMG! My last post was number 666!

Forgive me

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

mg... I see what you are getting at and, for sure, from an evolutionary standpoint, there are many primeval emotions and reactions within all of us. Rape is not uncommon in mammamls and other animal groups (I never yet saw a drunken female dolphin in a short skirt straying into the wrong side of the beach to get gang raped by a bunch of male dolphins... but nonetheless, the males do rape in gangs). However, I doubt it would stand up as a defence in any court of law.

The idea of an uncontrollable dumbstick has been talked about on this thread previously and it actually is an insult to men for us to think they are not capable of controlling their urges and erect penises. The vast majority do. Those that don't join the rapist's clan.

Women also have animal urges... and one of mine is to throw something at anyone else that suggests in any way, even by serrupticious and tenuous linkage, that any victim comes close to being responsible for being raped ;-)

I jest, of course, but not about the subject matter

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

Sorry, I meant you, yes. As to whether one could actually choose to die with honor rather than become a sex slave, it depends on the core of the individual. Some people are hard-over on their own right to choose and would rather die than be forced. Others opt for surviving at any cost in the hope of finding an easier way out down the lien. There's no "wrong", but there are significant "different"s.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:36 PM

Amos wrote to "Maeve"... and I suspect it was for me? No problem at all. :-)

I still have a slight problem with believing that some women can up and move so easity and die with honour but I get the gist of what you are saying. I dare say we will need to agree to disagree on that perspective. I can see what you mean but I myself feel those women have no choice as to their circumstance, much of which is brought about by the men being in charge.

However. Point made and taken. Thanks for the answer :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM

Lox:

Steam on. Youhave completely missed my distinction. For each of those passengers, who was it that walked into the plane? This is not culpability, which is the sense in which you are using word, but self-possession, the sense in which I am using the word perfectly correctly despite your objection.

"responsible - Answerable for an act performed or for its consequences; accountable", (Wiktionary)

"having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action:" (American Heritage)

Your sense--answerable to others, typically in legal charges--is distinguishable from those things for which one is answerable to oneself alone.

The word comes from the Latin spondere to promise. There are promises to others, and they are important, and a basis for law and often for blame. But there are also promises to oneself, including the promise to act mindfully. Keeping one's word to others is as much an action of self-responsibility (because it cleaves to your integrity) as it is of responsibility to others; only you get to define your own integrity, though.

The more you disavow your own actions, the weaker you become.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM

I think from a biological point of view, and I realize very few will follow me here, is that something similar to rape is the biological, evolutionary norm. That civilization is the overpowering of biology with social constraints. That conditions such as war will disinhibit the cultural restraints. I do not buy for a moment that rape is only about dominance. Could be an important factor, but I think it is an inability or even the notion to control one's urges..and that we are pretty much all capable of this sort of behavior. One brain injury in the right part of the brain, one dose of some drug that disinhibits, severe trauma such as war that makes social rules unsustainable...and we are back to what our alligator brains tell us to do. That is why disinhibiting signals are so dangerous. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:26 PM

"Please dont adopt your friend's nasty habit of attributing
words and motives to others which are untrue"

It was you that suggested I am like someone who in your opinion is a coward akenaton. Or did you intend another meaning.

I am not an enemy of Lox, as far as I know, as we do not know each other in any way at all other than on this forum and our own comments. To call people friends just because they may concur on something is assuming too much. Lox can choose his own friends and I know I do. We are acquaintances on this forum, just like you and I are, and I am not friends or unfriends with anyone. I know no-one here that well except myself.

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:19 PM

"It is a different thing, a mind-set of assuming you did cause the many things you did cause that placed you where you are."

Amos, if you misuse and misplace that definiton of responsibility in that way, then you must also say that the passengers on a crashing plane are responsible, by merit of choosing the series of events that led them to be on board, for their own untimely death.

This however is mere linguistic jiggery pokery and has no bearing on who or what was actually responsible for the crash.

Neither does the fact that the Pilot was responsible for the plane.

3 different definitions meaning 3 different things.

Just as in this rape argument.

A rape victim bears NO responsibility for being raped.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM

Maeve:

What they are responsible for is the decisions that they made to act or not act in each moment. They didn't decide to move to higher ground; they didn't decide to leave town the first time the clouds of war threatened; they decided that staying alive in fear was worth more than dying with honor; they each made a thousand decisions to act or not act and these decisions are their own. There is no claim here that these decisions "should" have been otherwise. But it is imporetant that one own exactly how one really did end up where one is.

This is no way makes them blameworthy for violence against them. Blame and responsibility are entirely different things--one is an effort to reach truth, and the other is an effort to bury it.

The person who lies to you can be blamed for lying to you and misleading you. But only you can take responsibility for believing him.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

are we still trying to change mindsets and stereotypes or have we decended? .... serious question,i have man flu and my brain isn't working right now, the two read very similar, both stubborn.

mp, well thought of to bring the women in wars zones and the illgeal sex workers into this.
the raping of them, is all about dominance.as are most rapes.not sexual frustration.

as a smoker, i see where you were trying to go with the cancer analogy although it didn't work. of course i am not hoping to get cancer, but every time i light up, i am consenting to the risk.

we all have to take responcabilty(?) for how we behave yes BUT if we avoided everything that carries what appears to be a small risk, we woud never go anywhere or do anything. we wouldn't even try new foods incase we are allergic.

like has been said, the majority of rape cases are aquiantance rape. these are people we have judged and felt worthy of our trust.

right thats enough for me, thinking has given me a headache!!

take care all
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

Well, I like Dave quite well, he's got his point of view and makes his points without abuse and with a nice bit of humour....thats all that matters here really.

I also like Lizzie for her bravery and the way she wears her heart on her sleeve

MP I dont think you are a coward....I said you were being disingenuous, you certainly have the guts to apologise....as I have done to you,
Please dont adopt your friend's nasty habit of attributing
words and motives to others which are untrue.

Folkdavie...you are a backbiting sneak.

I don't respond to Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:01 AM

"The victim of a rape is not responsible for the action of the rapist. But she is entirely responsible for every step of her life that brought her, through a chain of decisions and actions, to the place where it occurred"

Amos, do you think there are instances where some victims do not own their own actions though? AS in the cases I cite. The young women sold into sex slavery and the women causght up in a war zone? How can they take resposnibility for what is happening to them?

I am NOT being in any way attacking here. In case you think I am trying to inflame you. I am siply trying to find clarification on your statement as I see some situation some people are in that they have no responsibility as to the how and why they are there.

I would be interested in your take on that. Thanks

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM

"and in your second post you are being disingenuous.
I have no respect for people who behave like that, you are in good company with Lox I think....a coward who is unable or unwilling to apologise for two unprovoked and untrue slurs against me. "

akenaton I have lost no sleep whatsover over this attack. To suggest I am a coward for agreeing with someone you do not agree with is typical of you. Why will YOU not answer the question I put directly to YOU? Stop talking about everyone and do what a lot did. Answer yourself for yourself. Yes or no.

Your respect for me? Your choice. It's my fault you do not respect me because I dared to say something on a forum you do not agree with. There, responsibility shifted. Have it your own way again... I can certainly live quite well on the respect I have for myself, what I think and what issues from my mouth.

Why is it when some people disagree on a thread that some have to take it down to either foul language, insults, name calling or all three sometimes? Whose responsibility is that? The person being disagreed with or the person slinging the mud? I certainly will not engage you in name calling.

But that does not make you any more correct in your accusation.

respectfully your

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 03:48 AM

I had already addressed that one, Bruce. I am only speaking for myself of course but I believe that the actions of some murder victims do ensure they 'take blame', if that is the right phrase. Look at the cases of long term abuse from a partner where the other, usualy wife, takes the life of her husband because she has had enough or fears for the safetly of her children. To me that is justified. There is no similar mitigation in rape. Just my opinion.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM

OK. What happens to the stuff on this thread if we change the thread title to

'Some murder victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:53 PM

The victim of a rape is not responsible for the action of the rapist. But she is entirely responsible for every step of her life that brought her, through a chain of decisions and actions, to the place where it occurred. Just as you are wholly responsible for being in front of your screen tonight touching a keyboard. If you don't own your own actions, you surely become a target for other people's. This in NO way is intended to shift the blame for a rape to anyone but the perpetrator. It is a different thing, a mind-set of assuming you did cause the many things you did cause that placed you where you are.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:41 PM

"we all must accept a degree of responsibility for our actions."



So a rapist is responsible for his actions.

His action was rape.


And the victim is responsible for her actions.

Her actions do not include Rape.


So the responsibility for the rape lies with the rapist and not the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:30 PM

MP both you and your friend are grasping at straws.
Everybody realises .....if they are being honest and not just toadying up to one another, that we all must accept a degree of responsibility for our actions.

I f Amos and I can agree on that, then it must make sense!!

Now, I intend to say no more, the points have been made and no amount of squirming will change them ....good night.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:17 PM

Ake,

I'm not running away from you.

I'm right in front of you confirming in absolute and certain terms that I think you are a bigot, a homophobe, a racist, a fantasist and a shit stirrer.

And I will not be apologizing to you.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

"responsibility (an active causative mind-set)"

Nope - sorry.

As you will see below in the cut and paste at the botom of this post, this use of "responsibility" is wrong.

Responsibility refers to several DISTINCT and DIFFERENT definitions.

When we talk about who is responsible for a rape, we look to definition no 2 below.

"an instance of being responsible:"

ie - who is to blame.

This is not the same thing as behaving responsibly, which is defined in definition no 1 below.

"the state or fact of being responsible."


This is a different meaning with a different usage.


It is also wrong to misuse definition 3 and say that the government and the police, in a position of responsibility, are responsible for rape. In fact, they are responsible for protecting society from rapists.

And it is also wrong to misapply definition 4, to suggest that a rape victim is responsible for the behaviour of the rapist in the way that a mother is responsible for her childs behaviour.


Misusing a word does not make n argument stronger, it makes it nonsensical.


And saying that a rape victim is responsible for being raped is nonsense.

As you can see below.

re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
   /rɪˌspɒnsəˈbɪlɪti/ Show Spelled[ri-spon-suh-bil-i-tee] Show IPA
–noun,plural-ties.
1.
the state or fact of being responsible.

2.
an instance of being responsible: The responsibility for this mess is yours!
3.
a particular burden of obligation upon one who is responsible: the responsibilities of authority.
4.
a person or thing for which one is responsible: A child is a responsibility to its parents.
5.
reliability or dependability, esp. in meeting debts or payments.
—Idiom
6.
on one's own responsibility, on one's own initiative or authority: He changed the order on his own responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:10 PM

and in your second post you are being disingenuous.
I have no respect for people who behave like that, you are in good company with Lox I think....a coward who is unable or unwilling to apologise for two unprovoked and untrue slurs against me.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:03 PM

I dont understand your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM

"Whether you wish to stand by what you said or not..."

I stand by what I said at the time I wrote it but, in light of Lox's comments, I respect the pertinent point he uses to show a flaw in the analogy. I am not afraid to say when I may have used something that did not stand up to scrutiny in light of being shown otherwise.

Lox was right to raise the flaw in my opinion and thinking

mp