BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 09:46 AM

Rape is a crime. Anyone want to talk about the rape of Iraq and Afghanistan by the US today?

See the connection?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 May 10 - 07:55 AM

In addition, I would argue that if confidentiality were guaranteed in rape cases then more victims might be prepared to come forward and tell the police.

Many cases of rape go unreported for numerous reasons, all related to public perception.

1. Victims do not want to be judged by the public eye. When you have been humiliated and violated, the last thing you want/need is to be subject to the invasiveness of prying scrutinizing eyes - especially if the prevailing culture has an attitude, as we have seen in the OP, that the rape victim could be to blame and that the poor dumb dog was just doing what came naturally.

2. Rape victims are often seen as 'damaged filthy goods' by society, and rather than receiving sympathy they can often be on the receiving end of the publics collective cold shoulder.

3. Rape victims may feel terrified to go out their front door or invite anyone into their home, much less face up to possible repercussions from friends or family of the rapist.

So I would argue that it makes sense to make rape cases confidential to the courts, thus rendering any libel or slander illegal and prosecutable from the outset and protecting both rape victim and false accusation victim from public humiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 May 10 - 07:13 AM

"in order to preserve the assumption of his innocence, it immediately implies the guilt of the victim."

I disagree. I believe that most rape victims would rather not make a public spectacle of their humiliation and that confidentiality in cases of alleged rape would be good for victims of rape as well as victims of false accusations.

Confidentiality could also give freedom to possible witnesses to come forward without hindrance from the pressures of social taboo.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:51 AM

The problem with anonymity for a defendant is that in order to preserve the assumption of his innocence, it immediately implies the guilt of the victim.

Sorry, Penny, but I don't follow that. There is an assumption of innocence in ALL cases of law in this country. The rule is innocent until proven guilty, whatever the crime. Anonymity has nothing to do at all with the assumption of innocence and I don't believe for one minute that you are suggesting that in the case of rape we should assume guilt as the norm are you?

However. I agree with all the points Lox makes on this. This is a seperate issue and I will not raise it or discuss it here again. I do not feel the compulsion to start yet another controversial thread where there is already an abundance but if anyone feels it is important enough please feel free to begin a seperate discussion.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:04 AM

Dave,

I think that it is important to seperate and clearly distinguish three issues.

1. whether a woman is ever responsible for being a victim of rape when she has actually been raped.

2. the question of women who haven't been raped who go on to make false accusations

3. the question of using social stigma surrounding issues of rape and assault to do deliberate damage to peoples lives , for example teenagers who deliberately destroy the lives of teachers.


This thread was very clearly about women who have been penetrated without having given consent.

The question is to do with whether or not a woman can be said to have somehow brought rape on herself.

In my voew, as I have demonstrated amply in this thread, there are no circumstances under which forced sex is in any way the womans responsibility.

Even if a man and woman are actually having sexual intercourse, if the woman - for whatever reason - wishes to stop, it would take a pretty fucked up guy to refuse and carry on regardless.

And any idea that certain clothing gives a man a licence to ... er ... rape a woman ... is more fuced up still.


But in the 21st century, we live in a state where you are presumed innocent until proven guilty, and noone should be imprisoned, named or otherwise punished for a crime they have not committed.

In the case of sex offences and abuse of minors, this principle is especially important.

If a teachers name is dragged through the mud, and they are named and shamed before having been convicted, their life will be utterly destroyed amnd in many communities they will be in danger of retribution from vigilante parents.

Anonymity is essential.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 10 - 05:14 AM

Conquistador states "No matter what,men should not be blamed for being human." Nobody would blame them for being human. Human involves using the brain as in "Homo sapiens". He (I assume he) is equating "human" with "male", since the behaviour he excuses is shared with, for example, male ducks.

The problem with anonymity for a defendant is that in order to preserve the assumption of his innocence, it immediately implies the guilt of the victim. As this thread has shown, this is already implied rather too much. If the rape proceeded to murder, this would not apply. Or would it? Fred West claimed consensual behaviour on the part of his victims, who were unable to answer. One had a very able champion in the shape of her cousin Martin Amis, but because he avoided trial, others remained tarnished.

As for teachers, there has built up a history of proven false claims, but here the issue is not simply anonymity. An accused teacher would immediately be suspended, and their colleagues would be banned from contacting them, they would immediately be put into a sort of isolation and this could continue for over a year while cases were built. There would be a presumption of guilt. Now child protection is important, but the pressures of this sort of situation would be appalling. And how could the accused build their defence without access to potential witnesses?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:49 AM

BTW - The law goes further -

It also pledged to give anonymity to teachers facing accusations of assault or other offences by their own pupils.

It comes amid concerns careers are ruined by staff who are victims of malicious and false allegation from their students.

Removing other arguments about teachers lives being ruined by false accusations as well.

The objection that people have is that it gives credibility to the argument that a lot of these claims are false. How so? I cannot see it myself. Even if it stops one person in a thousand from the stigma of a falso claim it is worth it. If the concern is that people will not make the complaints if they are to viewed as false than it is up to the legal system to ensure that this concern is removed. However I look at it, I cannot see that having a law that favours one set of victims over another, however small, if in any way fair.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:08 AM

Anyone seen the news on those accused of rape being given anonymity?

The full article is here but the gist is The coalition Government yesterday pledged to extend the current ban on identifying victims in rape cases to defendants as well.

It would mean only those convicted of rape would ever be named but the controversial move last night split opinion.

I heard a woman on the radio last night absolutely fuming about it. She reckoned it has put the legal system back years and allows rapists to hide in the anonymity. Now, I could be wrong, as often I am, but surely it is a good move? It is not saying convicted rapists are not to be named - just those accused. If they are found guilty they can be named. If they are not guilty then, surely, this new law removes most of the arguments detailed above about false claims ruining peoples lives. Surely people should be protected from the media witch hunts involved when named as a defendent. In fact, I see no reason why a defendent of any crime should be named until proven guilty. Or am I missing something?

On another tack, if the accusation is proved false, can the claimant then be named? Any idea?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 10 - 03:49 AM

The article appears to be a conclusion masquerading as an analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 20 May 10 - 11:52 PM

Yes. The above guest post in my name is a fraud - thanks for the PM, David. I never post as a guest, or at least not during the last several years. I used to go by some different names before settling on the one the simple sensible one. Back in '97, I was apparently Rastrelnikov - I think that was from a D&D character. Some aspects of lost youth are not mourned :-) I'm glad to see Joe Offer is still here. Amazing dedication. For a while I had a sig based on something Art Thieme? wrote:

The song isn't good because it's old; it's old because it's good.

Falling back on topic...
Ed T: Thanks for the heads-up regarding "sexual assault" in Canada. Crazy, vague term that makes women more afraid, and men more able to easily dismiss statistics as probably mostly bum patting.

David: Your restrictions on guest postings seem good to me, but I remember Dick is much more worried about censorship than I am. I just ignore postings by guests.

The year before my mom died of cancer, she started talking about all sorts of things. One thing that completely blew me away was that one of my cousins was the child of an unreported rape by a policeman. Looking at that cousin, it makes sense. But worse, is my niggling suspicion that maybe, just maybe, there was no rape. I really like that aunt. She's wonderful. But if I can have doubts about what she confided to her much-more prudish older sister, what must victims face in the courtroom?

This is a real blackness-in-the-hearts-of-men topic. I hated seeing the oft-repeated mantra: rape is solely a crime of dominance and aggression. I can send off a copy of the Why Men Rape article to anyone who requests it. And I'm getting out of this thread, 'cause it leaves me feeling upset. (Wimp = me today)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:40 PM

I think we can safely conclude that the trolls are lurking again.

Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:26 PM

Maybe the best idea, as with most controvertial threads, is to disallow all guest postings? Just my 2p worth.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 20 May 10 - 01:00 PM

Conquistador you seem to be very confused between women being provocative and women making false rape accusations. Nobody here is "blaming men for being human" concerning when a woman makes a false rape accusation. This is a red herring in a question about whether women have the right to dress as they choose and go where they please, without legitimizing rape should they encounter it. Or in other words, a rapist is always 100% to blame for rape, no matter how scantily clad the victim was nor in which seedy bar or dark alley they met. [i]That[/i] is what this thread is about: should we blame women for somebody else's action because they "deserved" it by the way they dressed or acted? And the only decent, human answer, is "No."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 20 May 10 - 11:38 AM

Perhaps Conquistador could write us up a code, specifying how many inches above the floor a hemline can be, and how far below the chin a neckline can be permitted to go.
I've said sometimes, not entirely in jest, that the bathing suit is one of the stupidist of human inventions. If we lived in a society in which concealment of the human body was simply a personal option, no one would think to say "I couldn't help myself; she was showing too much".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:44 AM

I see the new UK Government have said "Anonymity in rape cases to be extended to defendants." as part of their legal reforms. As has been said much earlier in this thread, I totally agree with that. No man (or woman) should be named for an alleged rape. They should only be named once proven guilty. This should hopefully put an end to how many men's lives have been ruined by false accusations. I would extend it out to jail terms for anyone making malicious, false claims too.

A woman (or man) should be able to walk down a street naked without anyone being able to think it gives them the right to go and rape them or that it even encouragages or sanctifies their own urges.

"...but if she gives out a message there is bit of tailing on the go - you can't blame the bloke"... Yes you can and should. He has no implied rights to go where his willy leads him. He has a brain too and knows what is right, wrong, legal and illegal.

IMHO

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,Conquistador
Date: 20 May 10 - 08:58 AM

Society constantly promotes and demands that women be scantly dressed and sexually provocative. Women are incessantly being told through advertising and other media that to be successful they have to 'put themselves out.' such women are at fault, so it's not just the rapists who are to 'blame'.   


Women should take more responsibility by making sure they do not put themselves in dangerous situations. For instance, if a woman takes risks when drunk, i.e, goes off with strangers to a hotel room for a bunk up, then I would say she must take some of the responsibility if she is later raped. I am not saying it is right or that she deserves to be raped, but if she gives out a message there is bit of tailing on the go - you can't blame the bloke, it is just the reality that can occur in these situations.

   
No matter what,men should not be blamed for being human. A lot of young women who head out on weekend nights looking jockeying at night clubs,later claim they were raped if the guy they brought home leaves after getting the sack emptied, their lack of common sense and their lack of awareness isn't enough to fall back on, maybe it is to do with their upbringing, if their mother was fond of it, you find the apple raely falls far from the tree.

They certainly do ask for trouble if they are flirty and dressed up in sexually provocative gear, like low cut tops, with their Bristols on display.

Ladies who enjoy dressing up when going out, should run an eye over themselves first and ask the question, is too much on show.

There is nothing worse than a young man getting banged up for a crime he did not comitt, worse still, then being labelled a rapist.

If a women makes a false crime of rape, she should face at least ten years in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:36 AM

"he was referring to the case of Richard Smith from Lower Broughton, Salford."

Eh?

Who was? When?

It all made sense til then ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ed T
Date: 19 May 10 - 05:48 PM

There is actually no rape in Canada. The word has been sanitized to "sexual assault" in the legal system.



http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/What+name/3045125/story.html

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 10 - 06:11 AM

""What a tangled web you weave.

I dont think any of you could tell your arse from your elbow.""

Why don't you draw us a map Mr Superior smartarse?

You can certainly find yours. You spend most of your time talking through it.

Now, anything you would like to say on topic?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 10 - 12:32 PM

NO, I was not intending to equate hunger with lust or greed for power. I was intending to point out the eagerness of the courts to protect property rather than people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 10 - 11:23 AM

I too, couldn't understand what you were saying, or suggesting Richard meant to say.

You obviously did though so I am not sure what the issue is? Don't bother about explaining though. Nothing to do with the thread and, to be honest, I am not realy bothered if a total stranger on the internet does not understand what I am on about first time round! :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 18 May 10 - 11:14 AM

Hi David,

Yes, you're right. Judging from Richards previous posts, it seems unlikely that he intended to say what I claim he plainly said/implied.

Unfortunately, akenaton's snide comment about it being difficult to understand your own post, David, has some validity: I too, couldn't understand what you were saying, or suggesting Richard meant to say.

Richard,

I'm relieved that I seem to have been wrong about what you intended to say.

My apologies.

Reading over some previous posts, I thought I'd chime in with two thoughts:

I knew a woman who knew lots of women - mostly nurses, many of whom had experimented with the "free love" ideal of the mid-late 60's. She said they all universally regretted their choice. However, I don't think she mentioned any of them claiming lost feelings of self-esteem because of their behavior.

I'm wondering how many men are exonerated/get mild sentences in rape trials because of WHO they are. I know it didn't even occur to me that Roman Polanski, despite his really good films, might have a really bad side until Charlotte Lewis came forward to accuse him of raping her at age 16. I'm also wondering: what was wrong with Charlotte's parents that they didn't warn her of the danger of letting Roman Polanski into her hotel room? Did they just assume it was a possible price Charlotte might have to pay in her chosen career?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 10 - 08:49 AM

I do become anatomicaly confused on occasions, ake, so thanks for reminding me what an arse looks like.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 18 May 10 - 08:30 AM

What a tangled web you weave.

I dont think any of you could tell your arse from your elbow.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 10 - 08:12 AM

I'm sure Richard will answer for himself but I think the point was that the law has become enlightened on the subject of victims (Ie those who are starving) when it comes to stealing bread and yet they still seem to disregard the plight of the victims in the case of rape. Nothing to do with justifying rape and if you look back at earler postings I think you will find that there were only one or two people who tried to do so. Richard was not amongst them.

Probably a classic case of mis-reading or mis-writing a point on an internet forum!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 18 May 10 - 07:16 AM

Richard Bridge said: How nice it is to see this thread contain rationality. Interesting how long ago it was that judicial systems refused to countenance starvation as justifying theft and have still not yet applied parity in matters of sex.

There is a world of difference between trying to explain how things tend to happen and claiming that an action is justified.

You're equating a starving person stealing bread with a lusting guy raping someone. You seem to suggest rape might be justified if someone needs sex; you're pretty much ignoring that someone else might have a much greater need to not have sex. Are you aware that at least three women who posted to this thread claimed to have been raped in the past? My first reaction to your post was that it demonstrated an incredible degree of malevolence. But perhaps your thought processes are genuinely impaired right now.

Richard, if you're not the malevolent soul you appear to be, PM me if you want to test out any ideas. I'm pretty good at spotting flaws in arguments - much better than I am at being sensitive to others' feelings. In public, I won't respond to you again on any topic.

I'm feeling pretty stunned right now. I'm beginning to see why there was so much animosity towards the authors of Why Men Rape - some people really will see moral justification in the article, just as some people see Apocalypse Now and decide war would be exhilarating.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:26 PM

How nice it is to see this thread contain rationality. Interesting how long ago it was that judicial systems refused to countenance starvation as justifying theft and have still not yet applied parity in matters of sex.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 16 May 10 - 12:52 PM

I don't think hold our legal system in particularly high regard. To point out that it is superior to medieval Sharia law is faint praise indeed.

A few years back, during the early years of AIDS, I heard of a case in Canada where a rapist was convicted, even though his crying victim managed to talk him into using on a condom. The judge sounded very sensible, unlike the Australian? judge mentioned somewhere above who thought tight pants that were slow to remove were relevant to the question of consent being obtained. We really need a better legal system.

I think it's horrible that some victims blame themselves for no reason, and I detest lawyers who do everything they can to help criminals avoid prosecution - not even the Blackwater mercenaries would ever stoop so low as to work for Al Queda or the Taliban, but a few lawyers like Johnny Cochrane seem to revel in helping horrible people, and our society openly rewards them for doing so.

Slightly related topic: I'd be interested in hearing what effect readily available porn would have on prison inmates' perception of safety, especially in single-occupancy per cell prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 16 May 10 - 08:43 AM

mp, was there a suggestion that rape laws be modified or softened in response to evolutionary considerations?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 16 May 10 - 05:38 AM

Why Men Rape, is an article that appeared in the New York Academy of Sciences Magazine, The Sciences in January, 2000. I can email anyone a copy of the article. The authors claim that "prevention efforts will founder until they are based on the understanding that rape evolved as a form of male reproductive behavior."

From Scripps Howard News Service:
Jennifer Beeman, director of the Campus Violence Protection Program at the University of California-Davis, said she instinctively read the article as "dangerous." But after the third reading, she said, "Some of it rang true, and intuitively it sounds right."

Beeman, who has counseled more than 1,000 rape victims, said she hopes the article and book will force scientists, social scientists, women's organizations and rape experts to do some soul-searching.

"For so long our mantra has been 'It's about power, not sex,"' she said, "that I think we're afraid to admit it might be about both."

I have no sympathy for rapists. I don't care if they can't control themselves - I'd happily erase them and neuter their offspring. And there's no point in suggesting to anyone who was raped or robbed or assaulted that they would have decreased their vulnerability had they acted differently - you can't protect yourself against something that has already happened. But there IS a point in pointing out precautions to people who wish to avoid future rapes, robberies, and assaults.

The arguments about clothing seem really bizarre. I just can't wrap my head around the idea of any man with a modicum of self-control in my XXX-porn-riddled culture being provoked past the point of rational self-control simply by seeing a woman in a f**k-me outfit. Planned, predatory behavior, rather than out-of-control behavior seems more probable. On the other hand, I'm really unimpressed by people who claim that REAL men are always rational enough to stop right in the middle of sex. And WHO forgot to educate young women that when they forcefully tell a man they need to stop, that subsequently demanding a hug for the next three hours, well, it doesn't help the relationship.

I once had a condom foul-up but went ahead and finished having sex, unprotected, with a young woman who, by that point, I knew I really, REALLY didn't want to marry and whom I knew was dead-set against abortions. I still have trouble understanding how I could be that out of control. If *I* could be that out of control, I really think women need to take better care to guard themselves against men. Regardless of what you ought to have the right to do, use your common sense, and guard yourself against that invisible 10% or so of men in our culture who are potential rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:15 AM

No, I don't think that, and wouldn't want to imply that. But the first message in this thread started with "...and this is from Women!" so I thought the general intent of the thread was "how can women think this?" and that was what I was responding to.

Sorry, I haven't read all the 700+ intervening messages. I suppose the topic could have drifted somewhat.

Frankly, I didn't even notice that there were 700+ messages. I just read the first few and skipped to the end. If I had noticed that there were 700+ messages, I'm sure I wouldn't have bothered to post at all. I've found that in long threads like that, the chance that anyone will respond to my messages is practically nil.

So I'm pleasantly surprised that you did, Kat.

By the way, I picked up that bit of wisdom—that self-blaming is a defense against fear—in a workshop I once attended taught by a counselor who specializes in treating rape victims.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 10 - 07:44 PM

Good point about fear, Jim, but surely you don't think it is only women who ...indulge in this kind of thinking.
?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 10 - 04:56 PM

Anger against unjust judgments is always the best response.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 May 10 - 04:48 PM

A factor that is often overlooked: Blaming the victim (or self-blame) is often a defense against fear.

"It's her own fault for going into that park" translates to "As long as I stay out of that park, I will be safe"—which is a comforting thought, however fallacious.

Whereas "It's not her fault, no matter what she did" translates to "Rape can happen to anybody, anywhere, any time"—which is a scary thought, but much closer to the truth.

Therefore, it should be no surprise that many women indulge in this kind of thinking.

Anger probably isn't the best response.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:52 PM

:-(

Just read it kat. What is wrong with these people that they can be swayed by such stupid arguments? It could be she completely stripped off and lay there guiding his penis in... and still be rape. If she was forced to do then that is the end of it. This whole idea that a woman can fun faster with her skirt up than a man with his pants down is rediculous.

I know if I was given the choice of death or being raped what would likely go through my mind at that time. I'm almsot sure I would co-operate. I well imagine the will to live in such scenarios is far stronger than the will to refuse forced sex. I hope to heaven I never have to make that choice.

This whole clothing argument, where women are inviting men to have sex with them if they dress a certain way, is rediculous. I remember one case years ago, and I cannot find the reference now, where a court found a man innocent because the woman had been carrying condoms so must have been looking for sex.

It makes you so angry :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:40 PM

It is terrible, mp.

I had meant to post a link the other day to a commentary on an Australian jury deciding not consider it rape IF the victim was wearing what most refer to as Skinny Jeans. Apparently they just didn't see how a rapist could get them off with her cooperation. I haven't read more in-depth articles about it, but it seems to me if one's life is in danger, one does what they have to to live; even it if means helping in taking one's clothing off, just as the woman in the Congo submitted to protect her husband.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:19 PM

Sorry. That should have read...

It is a harrowing tale. One that gets repeated time and again. Who, man or woman, could blame these victims for anything that has befallen them?

What a sad sad situation :-(


mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:15 PM

I know it's been a long time since there was a posting on this thread but, taking in mind Joe's recent request to try and reduce the amount of similar threads, I thought to put this here.

This agonising rape dilemma of a woman in the Congo tears at my heart as I read it. The plight, the anguish, the guilt and the judgement brought upon her by others. Some would say she had a choice. What kind of a choice or a chance was she given?

Man's inhumanity to (wo)man. And they to be rejected by the very man she made the decision over. I wish I could hug her right now. It would do little good, I know, but who can say she put herself in this situation?

As for her husband. My gut instinct and what I felt when I read the story were ones of contempt and detestment. The fact is I have no idea how he feels and I have no right to judge him either. Instinctively I went to think how very hard and harsh he is. It did not last beyond a few seconds. He, too, is a victim. I have no idea how it must feel to be him and what such things do to a man's psyche. In my romantic, love each other for ever world, he would support his wife and love her all the more. The truth must be so much harder.

It is a harrowing tale. One that gets repeated time and again. who, man or woman, could blame these victims for anything that has befallen them?

What a sad sad wituation :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM

COR! I'VE BEEN AWAY A WHOLE WEEK AND HERE ARE YOU DEAR OLD SUGAR-LUMPS STILL AT IT!!!

WELL GOODNESS GRACIOUS ME···················

···and how much forrader have you got, darlings?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM

thanks maryrrf. no offence to anyone else but you put that in a way that i understand. non judgmental and non blaming, just cautionary.

the problem comes when you judge someone wrongly. to then take any blame or responsibilty afterwards makes one question every decision you then have to make. as a friend said on another forum, you might expect them to try it on, but you don't expect anyone to not take no for an answer if you did think about it, you would never make new friends.

take care all
jade x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,maryrrf (no cookie?)
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 09:56 PM

No woman should be blamed for being raped, but that doesn't mean women should not take responsibility for their personal safety.
Not all rapes are preventable, but some are, and the most important defense is to be observant, use and trust your judgment (which means avoiding getting into a situation where you are so intoxicated that you can't look after yourself) and exercising caution about who you go home with, get into bed with, etc.    As to dressing provocatively, that's an individual choice but it can be a risk factor in that it sends out signals that can be misread… you don't know the mindset of the person who's picking up on those signals.
When I was young and naïve – having recently left the small community where I grew up, I had some difficult incidents with guys who invited me to their apartments for dinner or a drink and then put the moves on – in a few cases very aggressively.    I didn't get raped, but I did feel threatened and uncomfortable.    I learned to be careful about who I went home with – to read body language and other signals, and it helped me to avoid such situations in the future. And no I didn't become paranoid, just much more aware.    Now, If I'd gone to dinner at somebody's house and been raped would it be my fault? No. But being aware of the possibility made me much more careful about whose house I had dinner at.    It's entirely possible that I could have misjudged somebody, thought they were trustworthy, gone to their house, and gotten in trouble, but as I said, not all rapes are preventable.   
You could say that about most crimes. I always felt that my neighborhood was safe and often didn't bother to lock my car. Then one day somebody stole all my CDs from the unlocked car in my driveway. This made me aware of the risk, and I now lock my car. Was it my fault my CDs were stolen because I left the car unlocked? No, but I doubt the kids would have bothered smashing the window, and had I locked the car, it might have prevented the theft. Not all crimes are preventable, but you can reduce the risk.
There's a difference between blaming the victim for being raped and encouraging women to look out for themselves.    In an ideal world, they shouldn't have to, but the human race just hasn't reached the point where we can always trust everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 08:11 PM

Women should not pretrust men they do not know. They should not let them into their homes alone. They should not accept dates that involve transportation with unknown men (unless known to others). Mothers should watch their children around various relatives and certainly around mother's boyfriends. We have to be alert and protective of ourselves and younger and more vulnerable, and frankly, more attractive women..and certainly teens and children.

They will live the kind of life women have always had to live..to be aware, to be vigilant, to avoid many scenarios that most of the time would be perfectly safe but sometimes are not..scenarios that have been known to various cultures and societies for millenia. I like men, I not only trust most of them, I revere some of them for how wonderful they are. But I am not going to go into certain circumstances with them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM

mg,

And once women have learned to take responsibility by not trusting their husbands, boyfriends, cousins, uncles, workmates, tennis partners etc, what kind of life will they then live?

Should women just not trust men?

Wouldn't that be a wonderful existence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:53 PM

Amos,

Below are two statements from you:

1. "it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth"

2. "any rape victim will be further along the road to recovery from the trauma when she identifies for herself those parts of the scene that she can take responsibility for"

Number 2. was posted to explain number 1.

But it doesn't succeed, for the following reasons:

In quote 1, you present the idea that "the courtroom drama" is the thing affecting the womans integrity and personal sense of truth.

In quote 2, you talk of her recovery from the trauma of the rape itself.

You say that the process of reflection is an individual exercise.

Does that mean that you see each individual as bearing different degrees of responsibility?

Is this a purely subjective process for the victim to undertake?

What if two different women, raped in identical circumstances, but with different personalities, accepted significantly different degrees of responsibility as a result of the differences in their character?

Is one right and one wrong?

Are they each tipping the balance away fromn a sensible amount of 'honesty'?

Where is that line drawn?

More importantly, regardless of what each victim thinks, what do you think?

Are there differing degrees of responsibility?

Why is it so hard for you to give your opinion on that point?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:49 PM

Do you think that women who have been raped by close friends, acquaintances or family should learn not to be so trusting of them?

--

Of course. Same as if a redhead raped them. We are programmed to learn these painful lessons. We would probably always have a fear of redheads after that experience. If someone were raped by a family member or close acquaintance, of course we should learn not to be so trusting of them..and try not to generalize where it is not applicable..but of course we should learn. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

"It is completely understandable that they might not identify any way in which they made it more likely.   But the infinite set of choices they did make has to be returned to their own causative perspective if they are not going to go through the rest of their lives being afraid and unsure of themselves because of what some bastard did."


Well I supose they might compare their circumstances with those of other rape victims, during which process they would find that most rape victims are attacked by close friends, acquaintances and family members.

They might detect a pattern and conclude that they should be less trusting of their friends and family.

Do you thin that women who have been raped by close friends, acquaintances or family should learn not to be so trusting of them?

After all, if you wish to apply a principle, is it not important to apply it consistently?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:27 PM

"I see any individual--and in this scenario, the victim AND the perpetrator--as being responsible for every decision they have made."

Thank you Amos.

But as you took great pains to point out in your last post, you have already made this point in this thread.

I asked: "Do you see some rape victims as being more responsible for their circumstances than others?"

You haven't clarified that particular point unambiguously.

A specific, unambiguous clarification on whether you think some rape victims can be described as more responsible than others, or whether you think all are equally responsible would be gratefully received.

I await with baited breath.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM

1. Do you see some rape victims as being more responsible for their circumstances than others?

2. With regard to the following comment:

"However, it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth after the trial is over."

Are you suggesting that some rape victims, upon honest reflection, would have to admit that their behaviour or style of dress made the attack on them more likely?


I see any individual--and in this scenario, the victim AND the perpetrator--as being responsible for every decision they have made.

I suggest that any rape victim will be further along the road to recovery from the trauma when she identifies for herself those parts of the scene that she can take responsibility for. The reason is this is how she can get back into a view of causing her life in the future.   If that includes a computation about what made the attack more or less likely, so be it--it is an individual exercise.

It is completely understandable that they might not identify any way in which they made it more likely.   But the infinite set of choices they did make has to be returned to their own causative perspective if they are not going to go through the rest of their lives being afraid and unsure of themselves because of what some bastard did.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:53 PM

For the record,

only around 14% of rapes are committed by strangers.


so they say ...


The rest are committed mainly by intimate "friends", but acquaintances and family seem to be pretty active too.


I imagine it would help the victims of these rapes to take ownership of the sequence of events that led them to be raped too.


What lessons could they learn I wonder about trusting friends and family?


Simple precautions like ensuring that when your uncle comes round for tea, you have a clear route to the nearest door, or sometthing heavy like an ashtray handy to defen yourself with.


Just imagine the healthy nourishing relationships Women could have with their male friends and relations as they "took responsibility" for their circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:02 PM

Ake,

"You may be a nice open hearted girl, who thinks well of everyone Jade, but I'm afraid the real world is not like that."

You did read didn't you that Jade was a victim of rape?

Exactly which bit of reality was it that you meant to open her eyes to?