BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 10 - 09:07 PM

Mouser: "If left unexposed, the traitors inside the U.S. government would betray the country's sovereignty to the United Nations for a collectivist New World Order, managed by a 'one-world socialist government.'"


I suppose if you missed Herbert Walker's speech, on ushering in a 'New World Order', you'd think everyone who thought that; what you just posted had absolutely no reason to think there was a conspiracy, to accomplish just that!

But, what do I know??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 10 - 09:19 PM

So, GfS, can we assume that Polk stole 1/3rd the United States from a native population that, as a result of being conquered, adopted Spainish as their language and Catholisim as their religion???

Hmmmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 10 - 09:23 PM

"I suppose if you missed Herbert Walker's speech, on ushering in a 'New World Order', you'd think everyone who thought that; what you just posted had absolutely no reason to think there was a conspiracy, to accomplish just that!" GfS

Good grief. I read quite well but parsing of that sentence is waaaaay beyond my capabilities. I'd like to see someone try.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 09:31 PM

There's a hidden meaning in there somewhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 10 - 10:04 PM

Yeah, my 11th grade English teacher, Ms. Gardener, would have given that sentence an F... Some times folks oughtta just say what it is that they have to say...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 10:46 PM

What sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 01:07 AM

Bobert; "So, GfS, can we assume that Polk stole 1/3rd the United States from a native population that, as a result of being conquered, adopted Spainish as their language and Catholisim as their religion???

Hmmmmmmm???"

I bet you're not meaning from the Indians...or are you talking about the other group of Europeans?...who moved in on the Southwestern Indians

Just move on in and call it yours!
Gosh, I wonder if the moon is ours, since we stuck a flag on it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 01:23 AM

Mouser: "Looked at from David Duke's point of view, John Birch was a leftie."

....and KKK Robert Byrd was really only kidding, just that the Dems can't figure out WHEN!

GfS

P.S. They took out my funnier one!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 10 - 02:18 AM

WHO took out WHAT funnier one WHERE?
GfS, you make it sound like you got censored. I can't find any deleted posts from you in this thread, anyhow. Only thing deleted here was one no-name message.
I get a little nervous when people start saying things that sound like accusations of censorship, because most times they're untrue.
If you have a problem with a disappearing message, ask me first before you make accusations.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 07:53 AM

Sometimes the transaction doesn't go through. You think you've posted a message but you can see that the thread title hasn't moved to the top. When this happens, you have to post the "back" button and post it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 26 May 10 - 11:21 AM

GfS,

Thanks for trying to inform people about the difference between the Spanish conquest and the Mexican claim to Texas, California and the New Mexico territories.

Th Indian tribes, such names as Hopi, Navajo, Papago, Pima and Papago wanted absolutely nothing to due with the new Mexican government that began in 1821 when Spain abandoned Mexico. It was deemed ungovernable and was costing Spain a fortune. It was origionally expected to provide Spain with great wealth but never did.

In Texas and California, the Indians joined the Spanish and Anglos to drive the Mexican government out. The Indians were given a great deal more respect here than in Mexico. They were treated better than the tribes in Canada, too.

Once the southern border of the U.S. was established, people on both sides had a obligation to respect it. Race has little to do with it since the majority in the Southwest was Indian.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 10 - 11:33 AM

Some people will evidently believe ANYTHING!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 01:47 PM

Joe Offer: "I get a little nervous when people start saying things that sound like accusations of censorship, because most times they're untrue."

I was not accusing...however, if I forgot to 'sign in' I apologize. Usually I sign off with 'GfS'

If I use '(wink)' at the end, it is the way I say " No offense, but just working off a line, as a quip, and not to be taken for anything more than light humor'.....though it may SEEM like an irreverent cut.
Anyway, thanks, and will go back to the threads.

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 02:05 PM

pdq, Thank you!..Methinks that if people, some on here, were actually studying, instead of getting high, and protesting, they might have known that!

The California missions, mostly the work of Junipero Serra, were neatly spaced apart, up the coast of California, as to be no more than a days walk or horse ride, to the next mission. He was known for his butting heads with the Spanish governors and military, for their treatment of the 'Indians'. Those 'Mudcatters' in California should take a note of interest, for he was a huge historical figure there!
Here's a quick bit:

. Miguel Jose Serra, born at Petra on the Island of Mallorca, Spain.

1729
. . At the age of 16 he entered the service of the Catholic Church. He soon entered the Order of St. Francis of Assisi, and and took a new first name, Junípero, that of St. Francis' beloved original companion friar.

1749
. . Father Serra volunteered to serve the Franciscan missions in the new world. He left Cadiz, Spain and sailed for Vera Cruz, Mexico, at the age al 36. He traveled by foot to Mexico City to dedicate his mission vocation at the shrine of Mexico's Our Lady of Guadalupe. His first assignment was in the Sierra Gorda in Mexico.

1767
. . The Franciscans of Mexico were asked to take over missions in Baja California. These remote facilities became Father Serra's responsibility.

1769
. . Spain began settlement of Alta California with the Sacred Expedition which Serra accompanied. The first destination was San Diego. It was on Presidio Hill where Serra planted the cross and dedicated the first mission in Alta California. At this same time, the first fortified settlement was founded. Serra himself established nine missions, with a total of twenty-one missions eventually being established along the El Camino Real, from San Diego to Sonoma, a distance of 700 miles.

1784
. . At the age of 70, and after traveling 24,000 miles, Father Junípero Serra died at Mission San Carlos Borromeo and is buried there under the sanctuary floor.

CALIFORNIA'S 36 MISSIONS

LOWER CALIFORNIA
Serra was president of the following missions.
(all founded by the Jesuits)
1. 1697 - Nuestra Señora de Loreto
2. 1699 - San Francisco Xavier
3. 1705 - Santa Rosalía de Mulegé
4. 1708 - San José de Comondú
5. 1720 - La Purísima Concepción de
. . . . . . . .María Cadegomó
6. 1720 - Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe
7. 1721 - Santiago de las Coras
8. 1721 - Nuestra Señora de los Dolores
9. 1728 - San Ignacio
10. 1730 - San José del Cabo
11. 1733 - Todos Santos
12. 1737 - San Luís Gonzaga
13. 1752 - Santa Gertrudis
14. 1762 - San Francisco de Borja
15. 1767 - Santa María de Los Angeles         UPPER CALIFORNIA
Serra was responsible for the founding of the first nine missions.
1) 1769 - San Diego de Alcalá
2) 1770 - San Carlos Borromeo
3) 1771 - San Antonio de Padua
4) 1771 - San Gabriel Arcángel
5) 1772 - San Luís Obispo de Tolosa
6) 1776 - San Francisco de Asís
7) 1776 - San Juan Capistrano
8) 1777 - Santa Clara de Asís
9) 1782 - San Buenaventura
The next nine missions founded by Rev. Fermín Francisco Lasuén.
10) 1786 - Santa Bárbara
11) 1787 - La Purisima Concepción
12) 1791 - Santa Cruz
13) 1791 - Nuestra Señora de la Soledae
14) 1797 - San José de Guadalupe
15) 1797 - San Juan Bautista
16) 1797 - San Miguel Arcángel
17) 1797 - San Fernando Rey de Espana
18) 1798 - San Luís Rey de Francia
Founded by others.
19) 1804 - Santa Inés
20) 1817 - San Rafael Arcángel
21) 1823 - San Francisco Solano de
. . . . . . . . .Sonoma



San Carlos Borromeo, Carmel California
Founded in 1770
Serra's final resting place.



THE MAN

FATHER JUNÍPERO SERRA, THE MAN

. . Interviews with California historians and scholars assessing Father Junípero Serra's role in the early history of California identify the Franciscan missionary as a major figure in California history whose founding of Mission San Diego de Alcala on July 16, 1769, marked the introduction of a new civilization in California. Father Serra came to what is now California as a 56-year-old man, asthmatic and suffering from a chronic leg sore that troubled him for the last 15 years of his life. Yet he walked thousands of miles, rode thousands more on the backs of mules, and traveled thousands of miles in sailing ships, bringing the Spanish language to California, as well as the Roman Catholic religion and a chain of nine missions that became the cities of today's California. He introduced agriculture and irrigation systems, pressed for a system of law to protect California's Native Americans against the abuses of Spanish soldiers and created a network of roads.

. . The following excerpts of interviews with historians and scholars, as well as a Franciscan priest with extensive knowledge of the life of the pioneer missionary, describe Father Serra, the man:

DR. MICHAEL MATHES, Professor of history at the University of San Francisco:
. . "Serra was the founder and the pioneer of California. The poor man has had no privacy for years. Everybody has picked at every little aspect that could be known about this man's life."
. . "Serra fought with the military and with the governors a lot. He was unusual in that regard. . . So we have, in a lot of correspondence of these governors, criticism of Serra, lots of criticism. But this criticism of Serra revolves around the fact that he was too much involved in the care and treatment of the Indians, that he would not allow soldiers to mingle with the Indians. He didn't want these people (the Indians) to be tainted with any possible immoral activities that the soldiers might be involved with.
. . "First came the Indians in his missions. Then, if there was anything left over, the soldiers could have it. These were the complaints of the government, of the civil governors: that Serra was such a fanatical missionary that he really didn't want to cooperate with the civilian government, that his first concern was the taking care of his mission. Criticism of Serra is really a boomerang against anybody that would say Serra was a 'bad person ,' because the criticism of him supports the theory that he was a dedicated missionary, He may not have been much of a diplomat or civil servant, but he was one fine missionary."

DR. HARRY KELSEY, curator of history at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History:
. . "Father Serra was certainly a very human man. He had lots of weaknesses, I suppose, but he had tremendous dedication and strength of purpose. He was as old as I am before he even came to California... It's something to think about doing when you're in your 20s and 30s, not when you're in your 50s. Serra had been a college professor for a long time, a fairly well known theologian, and he had lived a pretty comfortable life. When he went to Mexico, he decided he wanted to go to the missions, so his superiors sent him off to the missions. When he finished his mission, he decided that wasn't quite enough. He wanted to come here to the real frontier, so they sent him up here. "
. . "He tended to fly off the handle with the governors. Whether the governors could have been treated effectively any other way, I don't know. Serra got the missions started, though, and he was able to put them on a pretty firm footing."

DR. DAVID HORNBECK, professor of historical geography at California State University, Northridge:
. . "I look at him more as a leader in a sense of his extraordinary administrative ability, and his ability to coordinate the settlement of a whole new frontier. He did it all by himself... If he'd done that for Kentucky, if Father Serra had been Daniel Boone or any one of the sort of folk heroes that we have, well, their feats are exaggerated way beyond what they actually did. Yet, we have somebody here who took a whole brand new frontier, didn't know anything about it, and in four years had taken and converted it to a functioning, organized frontier."

DR. IRIS ENGSTRAND, professor and chair of the Department of History at the University of San Diego:
. . "We know Father Serra's life from the time he was born, where he was trained, what he thought and what he did. He wasn't out there saying, 'Wow, look at all these Indians. Let's whip them into shape.' He was physically there, he worked hard, worked 18 hours a day. He was much nicer to the Indians, really, than even to the governors. He didn't get along too well with some of the military people, you know. His attitude was, 'Stay away from the Indians.' I think you really come up with a benevolent, hard-working person who was strict in a lot of his doctrinal leanings and things like that, but not a person who was enslaving Indians, or beating them, ever."
. . ". . . He was a very caring person and forgiving. Even after the burning of the mission in San Deigo, he did not want those Indians punished. He wanted to be sure that they were treated fairly. . . "

DR. GLORIA MlRANDA, an historian who is associate professor and chair of the Chicano Studies Department at Los Angeles Valley College and who is working on a book about the pioneering family during Father Serra's time:
. . "He clearly saw the need for stability on the frontier. He was also very zealous in his protection of the tribes that he was working with. Often some of the soldiers who came north were not the best role models to imitate."
. . "He is as much a pioneer of the West as the pioneers we cherish in U. S. history. Not only because he introduced a faith -- he was a colonizer, an explorer, a man of great determination. Not that many people come around in history.
. . "His age is much more amazing. And his illness, his physical limitations. He was a very humble man, too. With his credentials, he could have had a very nice cloistered life, but he chose a life of hardship, which is very much apostolic, I think."

FATHER FRANCIS F. GUEST, O. F.M., director of the Santa Barbara Mission Archive-Library:
. . "He was a man who was not really interested in fame or in honor, or in being held in high regard by the government or by the Viceroys, or by anyone. He was simply interested in doing his spiritual work and if somebody else got the credit for it, he was not concerned one way or the other.
. . "To me, this was an act of extraordinary virtue, extraordinary generosity. It might even be called magnanimity. He was very big-hearted in his love for the Indians, in his love for his work and his dedication to his work. He had very pure intentions. I think that this was an act of virtue on his part, which would merit him very high praise from historians who studied his life from this viewpoint."

BIOGRAPHY

FATHER JUNÍPERO SERRA: BIOGRAPHY

. . When Father Junípero Serra founded California's first mission in 1769, he was 56 years old and asthmatic, with a chronic sore on his leg that troubled him for the rest of his life, and he suffered frequently from other illnesses, as well. He stood just 5 feet, 2 inches, and, as a journalist later wrote, "He certainly didn't look like the man who would one day be known as the Apostle of California." Yet he endured the hardships of the frontier and pressed forward with remarkable determination to fulfill his purpose: to convert the Native Americans of California to Christianity.

. . In pursuit of that goal, Father Serra walked thousands of miles between San Diego and Monterey and even Mexico City. He traveled the seas, also; and by the time he died August 28, 1784, in Carmel he had founded nine missions, introduced agriculture and irrigation techniques, and the Spanish language. He had battled governors, bureaucrats and military commanders to secure a system of laws to protect the California Indians from at least some of the injustices inflicted by the Spanish soldiers whose practices often were in conflict with Father Serra's.

. . Father Serra had been a philosophy professor and distinguished preacher at the Convent of San Francisco in Mallorca, the Spanish island where he was born in 1713. He was 36 years old when he reached the port of Vera Cruz, Mexico, on December 8, 1749, and walked to Mexico City. ( It was during that journey of 24 days that an insect bite caused the sore on his leg that sometimes became so painful he had difficulty walking. ) He spent 17 years in missionary work in the Sierra Gorda in the present area of North-Central Mexico. In 1767 he became president of the 14 missions in Baja California, originally founded by the Jesuits, then turned over to the Franciscans.

. . At that time, faced with the threat of Russian colonization from the north, Spain had committed itself to pushing northward into what is now the American state of California. Russian America (Alaska) was only 800 miles away. Spain feared that Russia would push south and gain a firm foothold in Alta California. The Spanish military launched an expedition into California in 1769 under the leadership of Gaspar de Portola. Father Serra set out with them to establish missions.

. . Serra's blessing of the site of Mission San Diego de Alcala on July 16, 1769, marked the beginning of the European settlement of California.

. . Between the years of 1796 and 1784, Father Serra made six voyages by sea totaling 5,400 miles. He traveled by land the distance between Monterey and San Francisco eight times, Monterey and San Antonio 11 times, His longest journey by land was from Monterey to Mexico City. In total, he traveled well over 5,500 miles by land.

. . Father Serra arrived at Monterey aboard the sailing ship San Antonio on June 1, 1770. He celebrated the first Mass on June 3, 1770, on the shore of Monterey Bay, where we now find the city of Monterey.

. . He returned to San Diego to work on the mission there, then founded Mission San Juan Capistrano in 1776, the year of the American Declaration of Independence.

. . When Father Serra died in 1784 he had established nine California missions and baptized 6,000 Indians, about 10 percent of the California Native American population. Those nine missions grew to 21. Today, more than 60 percent of the state's nearly 26 million people live in areas surrounding the missions, and El Camino Real, the road that Father Serra traveled on a tour of the missions shortly before this death, established a major artery running much of the length of the state.

August 28th is the anniversary of the death of Father Serra, and is set aside in special remembrance of his many contributions to the Catholic Church in America.

I hope this bit of history, enlightened some of ya'!

Respectfully,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 26 May 10 - 02:26 PM

GfS, if I amy steal a bit of you post:

"... Father Serra had been a philosophy professor and distinguished preacher at the Convent of San Francisco in Mallorca, the Spanish island where he was born in 1713...In 1767 he became president of the 14 missions in Baja California, originally founded by the Jesuits, then turned over to the Franciscans...

. . At that time, faced with the threat of Russian colonization from the north, Spain had committed itself to pushing northward into what is now the American state of California. Russian America (Alaska) was only 800 miles away. Spain feared that Russia would push south and gain a firm foothold in Alta California. The Spanish military launched an expedition into California in 1769 under the leadership of Gaspar de Portola. Father Serra set out with them to establish missions.

. . Serra's blessing of the site of Mission San Diego de Alcala on July 16, 1769, marked the beginning of the European settlement of California..."

I believe the "800 miles to Alaska" actually means "800 miles to Russian property at Fort Ross"

"The settlement of Ross, the name derived from the word for Russia (Rossiia) was established by the Russian-American Company, a commercial hunting and trading company chartered by the tsarist government, with shares held by the members of the Tsar's family, court nobility and high officials. Trade was vital to Russian outposts in Alaska, where long winters exhausted supplies and the settlements could not grow enough food to support themselves. Baranov directed his chief deputy, Ivan Alexandrovich Kuskov, to establish a colony in California as a food source for Alaska and to hunt profitable sea otters. After several reconnaissance missions, Kuskov arrived at Ross in March of 1812 with a party of 25 Russians, many of them craftsmen, and 80 native Alaskans from Kodiak and the Aleutian Islands. After negotiating with the Kashaya Pomo people who inhabited the area, Kuskov began construction of the fort. The carpenters who accompanied Kuskov to Settlement Ross, along with their native Alaskan helpers, had worked on forts in Alaska, and the construction here followed models of the traditional stockade, blockhouses and log buildings found in Siberia and Alaska."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 03:57 PM

Thank you, pdq...I 'cut and pasted' from a site with a brief bio on Serra. I think the point has been adequately covered as to the 'Mexican Territories'...and the bogus claims that have been made...but in reality, I think if their argument was sound..they should turn over their properties, right back to the Native Americans..and shut the fuck up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 10 - 05:19 PM

What one earth makes someone think that Californians don't know the story? Or Oregonians, for that matter.

Incidentally, perhaps it was just a typo back there, but Reich does NOT mean 'Roman Empire'.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 06:04 PM

Ebbie, NOT a typo! Homework time!

pdq, You think we should give everything North of Ft. Ross back to the Russians???...........
...........maybe if they migrate over, because there is jobs?...and welfare...and medical....and food stamps...and Ebbie!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 26 May 10 - 06:24 PM

"What one earth makes someone think that Californians don't know the story?" ~ Ebs

Well, are all Mudcatters Californians?

Is "the story" taught in public schools?

GfS, the Russians have more claim to North America than Spain, if proximity is a criterion.

France also claimed much of it, at one time, and they are at least as close as Spain.

There were only about 700 ethnic Mexicans in California when the Bear Flag Republic was established. There were 5000 Californios who were of Spanish descent and wanted nothing to do with Mexican rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 10 - 07:29 PM

GfS, I gather that you do not speak German. 'Reich' does NOT mean 'Roman Empire'; in this context it means Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:01 PM

Unfortunately history books still teach popular myth, in many cases, and facts are often left out. I don't know if that's due to the length of time it takes to get a text book from the rough draft into the hands of the students, or because of political entities playing around with the material, like we've seen in Texas, or what, but it's not helpful to the students.
                In fact, when that happens, there will be a certain amount of material that will have to be "un-learned." Most students will probably go forward with the myths for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:31 PM

Dearest Ebbie,>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                                  V
                                 
                                  V                           

                                  V

n.
The territory or government of a German state, as the Holy Roman Empire, or First Reich, from 962 to 1806; the German Empire, or Second Reich, from 1871 to 1919; the Weimar Republic, from 1919 to 1933; or the Third Reich, from 1933 to 1945.

[German, empire, realm, from Middle High German rīch, rīche, from Old High German rīhhi.]

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The term Reich was part of the German names for Germany for much of its history. Reich was used by itself in the common German variant of the Holy Roman Empire, the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" (Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation). Der rîche was a title for the Emperor. However, it should be noted that Latin, not German, was the formal legal language of the medieval Empire, so English-speaking historians are more likely to use Latin imperium than German Reich as a term for this period of German history. The common contemporary Latin legal term used in documents of the Holy Roman Empire was for a long time regnum ("rule, domain, empire", such as in Regnum Francorum for the Frankish Kingdom) before imperium was in fact adopted, the latter first attested in 1157, whereas the parallel use of regnum never fell out of use during the Middle Ages. The unified Germany which arose under Chancellor Otto von Bismarck in 1871 was called in German Deutsches Reich. Deutsches Reich remained the official name of Germany until 1945, although these years saw three very different political systems more commonly referred to in English as: "the German Empire" (1871–1918), the Weimar Republic (1919–1933; the term is a postwar coinage not used at the time), and Nazi Germany (the Third Reich) (1933–1945).
Use during Weimar Republic

After 1918 "Reich" was usually not translated as "Empire" in English-speaking countries, and the title was instead simply used in its original German. During the Weimar Republic the term "Reich" and the prefix "Reichs-" referred not to the idea of empire but rather to the institutions, officials, affairs etc. of the whole country as opposed to those of one of its constituent federal states. Das Reich meant the legal persona of the (federal) State, similar to The Crown designating the State (and its treasury) in Commonwealth countries, and "the Union" or "the federal government" in the United States of America.
Use by Nazis

The Nazis sought to legitimize their power historiographically by portraying their rule as a continuation of a Germanic past. They coined the term Das Dritte Reich ("The Third Empire" – usually rendered in English in the partial-translation "The Third Reich"), counting the Holy Roman Empire as the first and the 1871-1918 monarchy as the second. During the Anschluss (annexation) of Austria in 1938 the Nazi propaganda also used the political slogan Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer ("One people, one Reich, one leader"). Although the term "Third Reich" is in common use, the terms "First Reich" and "Second Reich" for the earlier periods are seldom found outside Nazi propaganda. To use the terms "First Reich" and "Second Reich", as some commentators did in the post-war years, is generally frowned upon as accepting Nazi historiography[citation needed]. The term Altes Reich ("old Reich"; cf. French ancien regime for monarchical France) is sometimes used to refer to the Holy Roman Empire. The term Altreich was also used after the Anschluss to denote Germany with her pre-1938 post-WWI borders.
Possible negative connotations in modern use

A number of previously neutral words used by the Nazis have later taken on negative connotations in German (e.g. Führer or Heil); while in many contexts Reich is not one of them (Frankreich, France; Römisches Reich, Roman Empire), it can imply German imperialism or strong nationalism if it is used to describe a political or governmental entity. Reich has thus not been used in official terminology since 1945, though it is still found in the name of the Reichstag building, which since 1999 has housed the German federal parliament, the Bundestag. The decision not to rename the Reichstag building was taken only after long debate in the Bundestag; even then, it is described officially as Reichstag - Sitz des Bundestages (Reichstag, seat of the Bundestag). As seen in this example, the term "Bund" (federation) has replaced "Reich" in the names of various state institutions such as the army ("Bundeswehr").
Continued limited usage during German Democratic Republic

The exception is that during the Cold War, the East German railway incongruously continued to use the name Deutsche Reichsbahn (German National Railways), which had been the name of the national railway during the era of the Weimar Republic and Third Reich. This is because the Reichsbahn was specifically mentioned in several postwar treaties and directives regarding the right to operate the railroad in West Berlin; had the East German government changed the name of the railways to, for example, Staatsbahn der DDR (State Railways of the GDR), it would likely have lost this right.[citation needed] Even after German reunification in October 1990, the Reichsbahn continued to exist for over three years as the operator of the railroad in eastern Germany, ending finally on 1 January 1994 when the Reichsbahn and the western Deutsche Bundesbahn were merged to form the privatized Deutsche Bahn AG.
Rike, rige, riik

Rike is the Swedish and Norwegian word for "realm", in Danish spelled rige, of similar meaning as German Reich. The word is traditionally used for sovereign entities; a country with a King or Queen as head of state, such as the United Kingdom or Sweden itself, is a (kunga)rike, literally a "royal realm". Two regions in Norway that were petty kingdoms before the unification of Norway around 900 AD have retained the word in the names (see Ringerike and Romerike). Riik is an Estonian word for country and realm.

The word is used in "Svea rike", with the current spelling Sverige, the name of Sweden in Swedish. The derived prefix "riks-" implies nationwide or under central jurisdiction such as in riksväg, the Swedish name for federal road. It is also present in the names of institutions such as the Riksdag, Sveriges Riksbank, Riksåklagaren, Rikspolisstyrelsen, Riksteatern, riksdaler, etc.

The Lord's Prayer uses the word in the Swedish, Norwegian and Danish versions: Tillkomme ditt rike, Komme ditt rike, Komme dit rige ('Thy kingdom come' - old versions). Låt ditt rike komma!, La ditt rike komme, Komme dit rige ('Let your kingdom come' - new versions).
Rijk

Rijk is the Dutch and Afrikaans equivalent of German Reich. In a political sense in the Netherlands the word rijk often connotates a connection with the Kingdom of the Netherlands; the ministerraad is the executive body of the Netherlands' government and the rijksministerraad that of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, a similar distinction is found in wetten (laws) versus rijkswetten (kingdom laws). The word rijk can also be found in institutions like Rijkswaterstaat, Rijksinstituut voor Volksgezondheid en Milieu, and Rijksuniversiteit Groningen.

Like in German, the adjective rijk means "rich".
Etymology and cognates

Reich comes from a Germanic word for "king", which was borrowed from Celtic. (See Calvert Watkins, American Heritage dictionary of Indo-European Roots, p. 70.) It has cognates in many other languages, all ultimately descended from the Proto-Indo-European root *reg-, meaning "to straighten out" or "rule", also the source of English right. The Sanskrit derived cognates in Hindi are "Raja" meaning King and also the name of an ethnic group: Rajput meaning progeny of Rajas. The cognates can be grouped linguistically as follows:
Celtic group

Proto-Celtic *rīg-, "king", from the lengthened e-grade (see: Indo-European ablaut).

    * Various Celtic words for "king" including Gaelic righ.
    * Borrowed into Germanic as *rīks-. Hence:

       * Old High German: richi; German: Reich (all senses); Reichtum "riches"; but not the unrelated verb reichen, "to reach", or its derivative Bereich, "subject area, sphere".
       * Old English: rīce; Modern English: rich, as well as the -ric in bishopric
       * Dutch: rijk
       * Danish: rige (as in Rigsmål)
       * Swedish and Norwegian: rike (as in Riksmål; Sverige, "Sweden").
       * Old Norse and Icelandic: ríki (as in Garðaríki).
       * Many Germanic names (personal names), including Friedrich, Dietrich and Richard.

    * Borrowed from Germanic:

       * Italian: ricco (borrowed from Germanic)
       * French: riche (borrowed from Germanic)
       * Old Prussian: reiks (borrowed from Germanic)
       * Spanish and Portuguese: rico (borrowed from Gothic)
       * Lithuanian: rikė
       * Various Slavonic words borrowed from Germanic, all loaned from Old High German dialects and include Slavonic phonetic innovations (like the change from r into ř-sound and soft Germanic "ch" into Slavonic "š" (like the "sh" in "she"). The PIE root "*reg-" (rule) is non-existent in Slavonic. There is also no native Slavic root for "king" and "kingdom" or similar words, probably because the early Slavic societies were highly democratic and ruled by an ancient form of parliament "wiec". Hence, Slavonic words generally meaning "king" derive from the name of Charlemagne in Old French, "Karol". Similarly, the words that mean more or less the aristocratic title "prince" come from Gothic "kunings" (with many local phonetic changes, e.g. "knędz" in Old Polish, "książę" in Polish and "kniaz'" in Ruthenian).
       * Polish: rzesza - nowadays often associated with "Trzecia Rzesza" (The Third Reich) in colloquial speech; second meaning: "a great group of people, throng, mob"
       * Czech: říše
       * Slovak: ríša

Original Germanic group

Although the line of descent of Reich and its closest cognates came into Germanic sideways from Celtic, Germanic also inherited the same Indo-European root directly in a suffixed form of the e-grade, *reg-to-, hence:

    * Old High German: rihte; Modern German Recht, "justice"; rechts, "right"; richtig, "correct"; Richter, "judge"; Gericht, "court".
    * Modern Dutch: recht, "straight"; rechts, "right"; rechter, "judge"; gerecht/rechtbank, "court"; rechtspraak, "administration of justice", "jurisdiction".
    * Old English: riht; Modern English: right; righteous.
    * Old Swedish: rätter; Modern Swedish: rät, "straight"; rätt, "law", "right", "correct", "court". (The word riktig, "correct", is borrowed from Middle Low German.)

Latin

The basic e-grade form of the root came into Latin as: regere (supine stem rectus), "to rule"; rex, regis, "king"; regalis, "kingly". A suffixed, lengthened e-grade form, *rēg-ola- gives us Latin regula, "rod". Hence:

    * Italian: re "king"
    * French: roi "king", droit "law, right" and many others.
    * Spanish: rey "king", derecho "law, right"
    * Portuguese: rei "king"
    * Romanian: rege "king"
    * German: regieren "to govern, to rule", Regierung "government", Regel "law, rule"
    * English (straight from Latin): regent; regal; regulate; rector; rectangle; erect; (borrowed via French): royal, reign; viceroy; realm; ruler (both senses) and countless others.

Sanskrit

The Sanskrit word, from a lengthened-grade suffixed form *rēg-en-, is rājā, "king", hence the words for rulers in various Indian languages. The word has made its way into common English usage as Raj—used by the British during their rule in India—and Maharaja, literally "the great king" (exactly parallel to Latin magnus rex).
See also

Sincerely,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:48 PM

GfS, please remember that we have a one-screen limit on copy-paste non-music posts. If the text doesn't fit on my 32-inch scree, it's too much. You have two recent messages that are way over the limit. I'll let you go this time, but consider yourself warned.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 10 - 12:28 AM

Like I said, Guest from Sanity, Reich

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 May 10 - 01:54 AM

Okay, Joe..sorry.

Ebbie, the Third Reich refers to the Third Roman Empired. if you would have read the giant post, which Joe referred to, youd know that. See if you can find an adult to help you with it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 10 - 05:44 PM

For some reason the rest of my post didn't make it through the pipe. I won't bother reconstituting it.

GfS, you had not said that 'The Third Reich' refers to 'The Third Roman Empire'. Had you done so, I could have agreed with that.

You said: "Third Reich" means "Roman Empire". A different matter.

And I did read that long-winded cut and paste- it doesn't say what you say it says.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 10 - 01:31 AM

Hmm. Strayed a bit from the subject, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 10 - 08:25 AM

Just a little!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: frogprince
Date: 28 May 10 - 11:17 AM

Gfs: You have repeatedly written hopelessly incoherent rambling posts, and then claimed that Ebbie lacks intelligence or basic reading skills if she is unable to follow them. Now you've cut-and-pasted half a book, all of which proves Ebbie's point, and again denounced her intelligence because she doesn't misread it in the way you misread it. Most, perhaps all, of us here can see which one of you comes off as the "adult" here. I won't say which name; if you reply to this, you wil probably say that I proved that it's you.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 10 - 01:21 PM

Typical fallout from the invasion of illegals from Mexico.

Today it was announced that the Copper Quenn Hospital will close its doors forever. It has served this rural Arizona comunity since the 1880s.

Here is an article from 2005:

                                                             Bisbee Hospital problems


Tucson Weekly...
June 02, 2005

Catastrophe in Care

Hospitals are being crippled by the costs of treating migrants--and that could be just the start of an immigrant-related health crisis
by Leo W. Banks

If you drive along Southern Arizona's border with Mexico long enough, you might see a lone illegal wandering the desert. Or maybe he's hunched at the roadside sipping water from his milk jug. What's he doing there, and where are his compatriots, the people he broke into the country with?

The uninformed might ask those questions, but those who live with the daily invasion across our open borders can make a pretty good guess what's happening. The fellow got bounced from his group by the coyote-guide. Two transgressions will get an illegal cut loose with certainty: Either he can't pay, or he shows signs of tuberculosis.

You think these coyotes are fools? They don't want some hollow-eyed lunger hacking and coughing blood on them. So it's adios, pal, and now you're America's problem. But they know that already. Every illegal realizes that if he makes it to an emergency room in Southern Arizona, or anywhere around the country for that matter, he can get treatment, free of charge.

It's federal law, and has been for 20 years. In its evolution, the policy has become a kind of federal health insurance program for illegals, and its rising costs are eating up resources that could otherwise go to poor and uninsured American citizens. It has created a financial nightmare for border hospitals and contributed to cutbacks in services at Tucson hospitals.

Is this an outrage? A scandal? Some think it's both. But going back to our active TB sufferer, here's something even worse: The guy can't get treatment anywhere, goes underground and takes a job at a restaurant in Tucson or L.A., and coughs his way to infecting scores of others.

Talk about a Hobson's choice. But as with everything in the ongoing crisis of illegal immigration, the hard choices would largely evaporate if the federal government fulfilled its constitutional duty and took control of our border.

The threat illegal immigration poses to American public health plays out every day at Arizona's hospitals. Until recently, the issue remained only marginally public, a problem medical people batted around among themselves, not with the media. Even today, several hospitals contacted for this story declined comment.

The Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee, one of the hardest hit, helped break that barrier when CEO Jim Dickson began returning reporters' calls, even though the subject, as he puts it, has become "like the third rail. You don't want to touch it."

But his problem had grown severe. Dickson's uncompensated costs for treating illegals rose from $35,000 in 1999 to $450,000 in 2004. His total shortfall now sits at about $1.4 million, a hefty deficit for a 14-bed hospital. To make ends meet, he had to close, in June 2000, the Copper Queen's long-term care facility, and cut back on staff and hours, forcing some employees to take second jobs to survive.

The hospital has seen a ray of light, however. In the first months of 2005, the Copper Queen has gone back into surplus, in part because more illegals are in Border Patrol custody when brought in to the hospital. That means the Border Patrol must reimburse the Queen for the cost. In the past, agents would drop injured illegals not in their custody at the ER and take off, sticking the hospital with bills that never got paid.

Another reason for the decrease, says Dickson: the Minuteman Project.

"It's been terrific for us in April," he says, cutting down on the number of people coming across and therefore the number requiring ER treatment. Dickson says the hospital wrote off about $6,000 in losses in April this year, compared to about $35,000 in April 2004.

The central issue, though, remains in place--the hospital has had to scale back health services to American citizens to treat illegals. Bisbee isn't alone.

The most comprehensive study on the subject found that 24 counties in four states bordering Mexico wracked up $190 million in unpaid emergency medical bills caring for illegals in the year 2000. The study, commissioned by the U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition, found that California spent $79 million of that; Texas, $74 million; Arizona, $31 million; and New Mexico, $6 million.

Bear in mind that these numbers, the best available, are from 2000. We can assume, with increasing rates of crossings since then, the costs are considerably higher today. Nor do the above figures take into account non-border counties. Treating illegals in Maricopa County costs as much as $50 million a year, according to an estimate used by Republican Sen. Jon Kyl. Nationally, American hospitals lose $1.45 billion a year.

The Medicare reform bill passed in 2003 allocated $1 billion to reimburse states for federally mandated ER care given to illegals--about $45 million a year of that to come to Arizona over four years. But even that, some hospital staffers say, is little more than a Band-Aid on a huge problem.

Ruth Kish, director of patient care services at Copper Queen, expects that under the repayment formula, her hospital will receive only 10 cents of every dollar they spend on illegals. "But every bit helps," says Kish.

Another factor: The counties in the above-mentioned study spent an additional $13 million in 2000 on emergency transportation, such as helicopters and ambulances, to pick up illegals injured after sneaking across the line.

The Bisbee Fire Department's ambulance responds to about one of these calls a day during the summer, says Chief Jack Earnest. Asked how many of these patients pay up, Earnest wasn't sure, and recommended contacting the billing office in Sierra Vista. The billing office knew exactly how often illegals pay their ambulance bills--never.

But there's another category--Mexicans injured in Mexico who call American ambulances for help. By federal law, they have to respond, which makes Bisbee's Copper Queen the trauma center of choice for Sonora's northern frontier.

The calls come from Naco, Sonora, the town across the line just south of Bisbee, where, in spite of widespread poverty, cell phones are popular, and everybody knows the Americans are bound by law to treat them.

"When we get a call we go, and we don't ask where the person's from," says Earnest. Naco residents needing care go to the port of entry and declare an emergency to American officials. When they're waved through, they're transported to the Copper Queen's ER in Bisbee's ambulance, or they drive themselves in private cars.

The policy is called Compassionate Entry, and it applies to hospitals up and down the line. The Copper Queen averages about five such cases a month. Some abuse the privilege, says ER Manager Josie Mincher.

She's seen Compassionate Entries with bad sore throats and others who aren't sick at all. One pregnant girl landed in the ER recently complaining of morning sickness.

Most are seriously sick, though, and the staff rushes to help, "because that's what we do," says Mincher. But it doesn't take much to blow the budget. "Just walking in the door is $400," says Mincher. "It's not unusual to have one UDA (undocumented alien) cost $5,000, and we know we're not going to get that back. We're playing with monopoly money here."

Here's an example of how one patient can wrack up a huge bill:

A young Mexican man had a bad auto accident across the line and was taken to Douglas' Southeast Arizona Medical Center with severe neurological problems. After being stabilized there, he was transferred to Barrow's Neurological Center in Phoenix.

He spent a costly month there, courtesy of the Center, and was transferred--with a tracheotomy tube in his throat and supplies to clean it, also provided gratis by Barrow's--to a hospital in Hermosillo. That facility kept him less than a day before releasing him to his home in Naco. But for reasons no one can explain, the Hermosillo hospital kept his trach kit and cleaning supplies.

As a result, he became septic--a bad infection--and came through the Naco port under Compassionate Entry to the Copper Queen. He spent three days there, then the staff sent him off, with more free supplies, to a clinic in Agua Prieta for continued care.

How much did this fellow cost the American health care system? A figure of a quarter-million dollars would surprise no one. Cost to the Copper Queen? Almost $6,000, and they got none of it back.

Northern Cochise Community Hospital is in Willcox, far enough from the border that it doesn't get patients crossing the line for health care. But that doesn't mean it escapes the invasion.

CEO Chris Cronberg loses about $100,000 a year caring for illegals, mostly those injured in traffic accidents when their loaded vehicle flips while speeding north. "It's not make or break for us," says Cronberg. "But as a small hospital, we depend on cash, and those are dollars that aren't coming in, so it has an impact."

The same is true at Sierra Vista Regional Health Center, according to Vice President Marie Wurth. She expects the hospital to lose $250,000 this year treating those who jump the line, get hurt doing it and don't pay their bills.

The big squeeze is on in Tucson, too. Tucson Medical Center loses an estimated $4 million every year treating illegals.

The corresponding figure at UMC, which includes some foreign nationals, was $3.5 million for fiscal 2004, a $2 million increase from the previous year. Part of that is attributable to UMC, in July 2003, becoming Tucson's only Level One trauma center, meaning it saw the most serious cases.

Chief Financial Officer Kevin Burns says the hospital's re-payment rate for treating illegals is about 5 cents on the dollar. "It's very expensive for us and continues to grow," says Burns, who says many illegals, as well as uninsured Americans, use his ER like a primary care physician. "We hear anecdotally that people come here from across the border because they know they can get cared for, and if they present at the ER, they can get that care at no cost."

The federal law that put the hospitals on the hook for the medical bills of illegals goes by the acronym EMTALA--Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. It says that anybody who shows up in an ER must get screened, treated and stabilized, regardless of citizenship or ability to pay.

But since its passage in 1985, the definition of emergency has evolved to include just about anything, and because Congress didn't fund the requirement, hospitals have had to eat the costs as word has spread that the federal goodie wagon is parked at the ER door.

In cities with huge illegal populations, such as Los Angeles, the effects have been disastrous. In its spring 2005 issue, the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons reported that between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because, for several reasons including EMTALA, half of their services became unpaid.

Another 24 are near closing, says author Madeleine Pelner Cosman. She also writes that in 1983, before EMTALA, L.A. County put together a trauma network that was "one of America's finest emergency med response organizations."

A mere 22 years later--again, in part because of EMTALA--Cosman says the system is coming apart, with most trauma hospitals having left the network, along with physicians, surgeons and others.

The law has caused a similar situation in Tucson, on a smaller scale. "With EMTALA, the government created an unfunded national health insurance program, and it has caused real problems in this community," says Dr. Herb McReynolds, who works for a company that manages the ER department for St. Mary's Hospital, which treats a large number of illegals.

Lawmakers wrote the legislation to prevent patient dumping--in which one hospital refuses to accept, say, an uninsured woman in labor, telling ambulance personnel to take her to the county hospital instead.

It stopped that practice. But it has caused a big increase in the amount of un-reimbursed care that hospitals provide, and in McReynolds' words, "made physicians rethink their careers and lifestyles."

"The price of it has come over time, because after so much uncompensated care, it forces physicians off our call list," says McReynolds. "Physicians have a practice to go to the next day and a family, and ask themselves, do I really want to be up at 2 a.m. providing care when I won't get comp, and I can still get sued?"

Some docs have removed themselves from on-call lists by going to work at outpatient surgical centers not affiliated with a hospital. Others stay on call, but limit the amount of time they're available. A neurosurgeon might take call one day a week, and that satisfies the law. EMTALA says that you must provide a reasonable amount of coverage, without being strict or specific about how much that is.

McReynolds says that EMTALA--in tandem with the malpractice crisis--has caused the loss of medical coverage at many hospitals around the country and in Tucson, including St. Mary's.

"Several years ago we had five neurosurgeons on staff here, and now we have two," he says. "We had hand surgery coverage every day, and now we have it one week a month. We used to have full ob-gyn coverage, and now they've left and gone to TMC. We have no ob-gyn and one gynecologist on staff covering emergencies one day a week."

With docs all over Tucson running for cover, trying to stay off call and away from ERs, the variety of emergency health care available to Tucsonans has seriously diminished. And here's the most maddening irony of all: The feds now reimburse American hospitals for treating non-paying illegals, but not for treating American citizens. Exception: Those eligible for care under Federal Emergency Services, a fairly restrictive program.

For a year and a half now, UMC has approached non-paying illegals in a novel way--it actually reports them to immigration officials.

"Some people find that cold, but we have a responsibility to protect this charitable asset (hospital)," says CFO Burns, adding that UMC's status as a public entity requires a different approach. "Our belief is that to the extent people have ability to pay, we expect them to."

After triaging and stabilizing an ER patient, the hospital sets out to learn who that patient is, and how he or she plans to pay. To those who are uninsured and underinsured, the hospital offers the option of applying for its innovative Charity Care program. Under it, the hospital charges the patient the same rate it would receive for that service from Medicare, a possible reduction of up to 70 percent.

Patients unable to pay at that discounted rate are eligible for further discounts that can tear up the bill entirely. To apply for Charity Care, the patient need only return to the hospital with a W-2 or other documents. Those who cooperate and return with the required documents don't get reported to the feds.

But the hospital does report those who take the medical care and run. How many illegals cooperate with this generous offer? Ten percent.

Burns says UMC began reporting the 90 percent who don't pay in November of 2003. So far, they've reported 565 persons. Why start reporting?

"Maybe a bit of it was born of frustration because people use our resources and make no effort to work with us and pay," he says. "Even if part of the population doesn't pay, I still have to hire new people and buy and upgrade equipment, which costs $15-$20 million a year. When you have these strains on resources, from foreign citizens and as well as Medicaid patients, you have to manage cash flow very carefully."

As with most issues related to the illegal invasion, those who live along the Mexican border, the scene of the crime, have the best view. Where health issues are concerned, it's not a pretty sight.

Residents say they've come across ground dotted with discarded pills, syringes containing nobody knows what, and used needles. Some report riding horses along creek beds, popular pull-up areas for groups heading north, and finding 70 or 80 piles of human feces, some of it blackened and running with blood.

It's as disgraceful as it is disgusting--and it raises a question: What happens when rain washes all this into the water supply? Is it a threat to spread diseases such as hepatitis? Some believe it might be.

What happens when cows drink from these contaminated creeks? And what happens when this constant flow of Third World humanity goes north, fanning out all across Arizona and the country? What kind of diseases do they bring with them?

ER workers like Mincher live with that question every day. "We protect ourselves best we can," she says, "but if somebody comes in with a contagious disease, I might as well buy the farm, because I don't know what it is. A lot of times, they don't know what they have either. If they came off a ranch in southern Mexico, they've had no immunizations, no health care, nothing."

Most of what she sees at Copper Queen--around 75 percent--is orthopedic, falls suffered while jumping fences, for instance. Dehydration, too. Some of these are pregnant women nine months along, who, in Mincher's words, "are so desperate to have their babies born in the U.S., they'll do whatever it takes."

She sees cardiac-related cases among illegals who've been given crack, methamphetamine or speed by their coyote so they can keep walking. But she's also treated illegals with active chicken pox, tuberculosis, all varieties of hepatitis and AIDS.

The Web and print media are full of stories about the diseases illegals carry, and their effect on American health. But some writers make alarming claims with sketchy evidence at best. In the cases of two diseases, however--Chagas and tuberculosis--the evidence is clearer that they're indeed coming across our border.

Chagas, a potentially fatal illness spread by contact with the feces of the reduviid bug, called the "kissing bug," is prevalent in South and Central America. Fifteen million people in that region are infected with the parasite, and 50,000 die of it every year, according to the World Health Organization. A person can be infected for 10 or 20 years or more before showing symptoms, making it particularly insidious. At its most severe, the disease can cause the heart to fail, and literally explode.

In the United States? Louis Kirchhoff, of the University of Iowa Medical School, estimates that between 80,000 and 120,000 Latin Americans with Chagas live here. Matching prevalence studies and immigration numbers, Kirchhoff figures about 10 Chagas-infected persons entered every day from Mexico alone in the 1990s.

The disease can be transmitted four ways, but for Americans, the most worrisome is the blood supply. In the United States overall, the chance of contracting Chagas from a blood transfusion is small, one in 25,000, according to David Leiby, a research scientist at the American Red Cross in Washington.

But in cities with high populations from Latin America, the numbers fall to much riskier levels. In Miami, for example, the chance is one on 9,000. In L.A., 1 in 5,400.

Researchers have confirmed seven cases of people contracting Chagas through blood transfusions--five in the U.S., two in Canada--and they say the number of unknown cases is probably much higher.

"A rate of one in 5,400 is something we're concerned about," says Leiby, adding that the FDA is still a few years away from a useable blood-screening test. "Chagas is overlooked by the health care system in the United States. Our physicians aren't aware of it and wouldn't recognize it in most cases."

Tuberculosis, which also shows up in high rates in Mexico, is migrating north as well. Many assume a place like Cochise County, right on the border and overrun by illegals, would have a high incidence of TB. But it doesn't, says Edith Sampson, of the Cochise County Health Department. "The immigrants only pass through here on the way to Atlanta, or whatever city they're going to," she says.

Exactly the problem--which is a big reason why 53 percent of the TB in the United States in 2003 was among foreign-born persons, up from 29 percent in 1993, according to the Centers for Disease Control. In L.A., again because of its huge illegal population, the figure is closer to 80 percent.

Only 15,000 Americans suffer from active TB, the only dangerous kind because it can be passed to someone else, usually by coughing and expelling the bacteria from the throat or lungs. That's a small number, but the New York Academy of Sciences estimates that each victim will "infect 10 or 20 or more people--in whom the disease will likely remain latent, creating the potential time-bomb effect."

The State Health Department says that Arizona had 295 reported cases of active TB in 2003, a jump from the previous year. Why the increase? More of the disease was found among kids under 5 years old and prisoners. The latter were mostly Immigration and Customs Enforcement detainees--in other words, illegals.

Sixty-eight percent of Arizona's foreign-born TB cases are from Mexico, says state health. Will TB return to the United States in a big way?

It hasn't yet, says Lee Reichman, executive director of the New Jersey Medical School's National Tuberculosis Center. But he adds that with globalization--the ability to get around the world in 20 hours--and because "we can't stop people from getting in to this country, no matter how hard we try," the potential exists for a new epidemic.

His particular concern is with multi-drug-resistant TB, fatal in 60 percent of cases. This strain requires a long regimen of costly drugs that illegals are unlikely to take, or have access to. Arizona has a small number of MDR-TB cases, and all of them in the past five years have been among foreign-born persons.

"The reason you haven't heard about TB here is that good public health is working," says Reichman. "People who are symptomatic go to physicians, and the physicians don't ask questions. As soon as you have to ID yourself, or say we're going to send you back to Mexico, these people go into hiding and spread more TB. Any physician who cares about being a physician isn't going to ask those questions, because he took an oath to treat sick people."

The Copper Queen's Rush Kish says that under Medicare reimbursement guides, her hospital cannot ask patients if they are in the country illegally. But how do you bill the feds to get money back for treating illegals if you can't ask if someone is illegal?

Well, you play a little Orwellian word game, probing around the issue with a list of government-approved questions, then make educated assumptions. But the illegal holds the trump card, because he can refuse to answer every question. "We don't know yet what evidence Medicare will accept when we apply for reimbursement," says Kish. "But at least we can begin documenting the enormity of this problem."

The question isn't whether those with genuine emergencies should get treatment. Of course they should. In Naco, residents have no access to ER care and many would die if they didn't get to the Copper Queen. The real question is: Who pays?

Rev. Tom Buechele, pastor at St. John's Episcopal Church in Bisbee, thinks it's appropriate for the federal government to keep ponying up, as long as American companies "maintain their illegal trafficking in human labor."

"Until we have comprehensive immigration reform, we need to bear the health-care costs for undocumented workers, whatever those costs are," says Buechele, who, for almost a year now, has been running a free monthly clinic in Naco, Arizona, catering to the poor and uninsured on both sides of the line.

Although they talk a different language, politicians, even Republicans, promote policies that further Buechele's liberal vision. They boast to constituents that they've saved border hospitals by pushing through the Medicare reimbursement plan, which provides a relatively small amount of money over four years.

But that's another Hobson's choice, which is to say no choice at all. What do you do, let hospitals go under? Kyl, who pushed to get the reimbursement money, says an emphatic no.

"If we want those ERs to be there for us, then we'd better keep them in business," says the Arizona senator. "If our hospitals are required by federal law to treat anybody who comes into the ER, and the federal government has failed to control the border, then it's appropriate for the government to reimburse these hospitals."

But some argue that the system as it stands now, with EMTALA firmly in place, is rigged to produce two results: The federal treasury will remain wide open to illegals, and that all but guarantees that more and more of them will bust the line to get here.

After all, this is the end of the rainbow for them, where jobs await, education is free, health care is free. Who wouldn't come? And the more they come, the more American health suffers--from such diseases as Chagas and TB, further cutbacks in hospital services to American citizens, and even possible closures.

Where's the compassion in that? Copper Queen ER nurse Josie Mincher, herself Hispanic, puts her health, and possibly her life, on the line to treat illegals. Listen to the emotion in her voice as she describes what that's like:

"I go to work every day feeling like I'm on a torture wrack. My heartstrings get pulled in one direction by these sick people I want to help. Because I'm Hispanic, I know how they live. And I'm pulled in the other direction, too, thinking that if our hospitals aren't around, where do I take my own kids?

"But we have to treat them because of EMTALA. It says that anybody who comes within 250 yards of an ER gets treatment. What would happen to Safeway if the law said anyone who comes within 250 yards of the store gets free food? They'd go out of business. Well, we're a business, too."

Mincher's solution? "Send the bills to Mexico. If it affected them financially, they might do something about all these people coming across. My grandparents came here legally, and it took a long time and a lot of money. They respected the law. These people just walk across now. They weren't brought up the same way."

Burns at UMC says he wants the U.S. and Mexican governments to work together to find a solution. But, as Kyl cautions, don't expect any breakthrough soon. Mexico benefits far too much from our illegal immigration nightmare--in jobs for its citizens and cash sent home--to step up with money to care for its own people.

Until the border brought under control and the invasion stopped, we'll continue to pay the bills of people who illegally tiptoed across the line in the dead of night.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 May 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq

Last post was too long- please post a short part or summary, and link. The long post will probably be removed, and the information should be here.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 10 - 01:43 PM

Yes, pdq, this is an issue that people have been trying to avoid for decades. Once the hospital closes, they can't ignore it any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 10 - 02:01 PM

Here is another little problem: murder by illegal Mexicans. Mexican nationals commit 22% of all homocides in the United States each year. This is the story of just one...


Tucson Weekly
April 29, 2010

The Krentz Bonfire

Will the murder of a respected Cochise County rancher change anything on our border?
by Leo W. Banks

A little more than a month has passed since the death of Cochise County rancher Rob Krentz, and the emotion generated by his murder, the pure shock of it, has ignited a bonfire that still burns across Arizona's borderlands—and all the way to Washington, D.C.

Now everyone is demanding troops. Now, with Gov. Jan Brewer's signature on a tough new illegal-immigration law, the nation is embroiled in a loud debate about racial profiling. Now everyone has a multi-point plan for bringing some control to a border so porous that anyone who wants to get into the country can eventually do so, as Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever last week told the U.S. Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee.

Will anything change now?

When the bonfire cools, will we be able to look back and say, as the heartbroken Krentz family hopes, that Rob's death wasn't in vain?

Last week, Rob's brother, Phil, described how surprised and heartened the family has been at the outpouring of support they've received from around the country.

"It has really woken people up to what's going on," he says. "But I don't know if anything will be done about it. It's too early to tell. Meantime, we're coping any way we can."

Rob's sister, Susan Pope, says, "This has really taken legs, and I think some things will change for the better. But I don't think it'll ever get to where we feel secure."

The Popes' home in the Chiricahua Mountains has been broken into three times. Susan works as a bus driver and teacher at the one-room Apache Elementary School, which has been hit so often that nothing of value remains inside.


"When was the last time you felt secure?" I asked.

Susan let out a joyless laugh and said, "I can't remember, honestly."

What has to be noted first is the inevitability of what happened. Something like the Krentz murder was coming, and everyone knew it.

Life in the Chiricahua Corridor north and east of Douglas, as the Tucson Weekly has been reporting for two years, has become a nightmare of break-ins, threats, intimidation and home invasions.

The stories residents told this newspaper, the frustration they feel trying to keep property and family safe in smuggler-occupied territory, were like a freight train in the night. Down the tracks, you see a faint light, coming closer and closer.

On March 27, in Cochise County's big country a mile west of Paramore Crater, the train arrived.

The aftershock has been so powerful, because the killing exploded the lie about a secure border that Washington, D.C., has been working hard to promote.

In the days and weeks before Krentz's murder, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, on TV and in speeches, had been telling the American people that conditions on the border had improved enough to proceed with amnesty.

"The security of the Southwest border has been transformed from where we were in 2007," she said. It was a sales job meant to push a political goal.

This is the same homeland security secretary who, in April 2009, told CNN it's not a crime, per se, to cross the border.

How committed can our government be to securing the border when the person charged with doing so—a former governor of Arizona, no less—doesn't know it's a federal misdemeanor to enter without inspection?

Now, back up a moment.

Yes, arrests are down across the Border Patrol's 262-mile-wide Tucson sector—from 378,239 in 2007, to 241,673 last year.

Welcome news. But understand that the people who got away outnumber arrests by about 3 to 1.

Yes, the feds have built fencing along the Southwest border, boasting that 628 miles are now in place.

But as Glenn Spencer of American Border Patrol notes, only 310 miles of that is people fence, and some of that is next to useless. The remainder—318 miles—consists of vehicle barriers that don't deter anybody on foot.

I've written before of the Tortilla Curtain, an invisible barrier that filters the facts about the border through various lenses—race, culture, civil rights, politics—so that by the time the information gets to the power centers in Washington and New York, it looks nothing like the truth.

The Tortilla Curtain's stoutest pillar is our own government, and no, it wasn't much different under George W. Bush.

But now, even big-media conservatives like Michael Barone and Charles Krauthammer, lost behind the Curtain, are trotting out arrest numbers and fence numbers, dutifully falling in line behind Napolitano.

These guys need to come to Arizona and get their suits dirty on the trails.

Around Nogales, where arrests are down 20 percent, Susie Morales—who lives 2 1/2 miles from the line in the national forest west of Interstate 19—has seen no letup in crossings.

As she cooks dinner in her kitchen, she can look out and see mules backpacking drugs on a trail 75 yards from her front door. Another trail runs 50 yards behind her house.

These trails are so close that when Susie spots incursions, she runs into her bathroom with her cell phone and shuts the door. She has to keep her voice down so the crossers can't hear her calling for help.

"There are more Border Patrol agents around, but the tide hasn't abated," says Morales. "It's amazing. They're still coming. We need active-duty military here, because we're just outnumbered."

She carries a .357 magnum everywhere she goes.

Foot traffic still pours over the Huachuca Mountains, south of Sierra Vista, to the tune of 1,500 a week, according to a citizen who places game cameras on trails there and counts crossings.

East of the Huachucas, John Ladd tells me that in the 18 days prior to April 10, he counted some 350 illegals on his San Jose Ranch. Every one had climbed the fence.

Ladd's property near Naco has been fenced since 2007, with the barriers ranging from 10 to 13 feet. But fencing just west of Ladd's, across the San Pedro River, stands 18 feet tall, so why would anyone bother with an 18-footer when you can walk east and climb a 10-footer?

"I'm on the phone to Border Patrol on average three times a day, seven days a week, to report groups," Ladd says. "I don't know what normal is anymore. I've become cynical, untrusting and pissed off."

East of Ladd's at Douglas, drug-laden ultra-light aircraft fly up from Mexico—right over Border Patrol headquarters, and Immigration and Customs Enforcement headquarters, every night of the week.

Arrests in Douglas are up 25 percent this year, and the danger has never been greater.

As one resident told me, "We're under the gun all the time. There are people watching us all the time. The smugglers have scouts on hills, watching us, watching customs, watching Border Patrol. They're terrorists, very militaristic, and they get a high out of it. As long as they can get away with it, it's OK. That's their mentality."

Do you think DHS changed its song after Krentz's death?

On April 4, The New York Times quoted DHS spokesman Matthew Chandler saying the agency "will continue to ensure that we are doing everything necessary to keep communities along the Southwest border safe."

Continue to ensure? If our border communities were safe, Krentz would be alive. Continue to ensure. Imagine having the cojones to say that after Krentz's murder?

They spun before Krentz's murder, and they're spinning now. And word out of Washington is that President Obama plans to push ahead soon with comprehensive immigration reform.

The sense of abandonment in the Corridor is palpable, and no one expressed it better than Roland Snure, a doctor who grew up in the area and knew Krentz well.

"I cannot understand how a government that takes, and takes, and takes, could not provide the only thing it has to do—protect its citizens," he said.

If you want to talk transformation, life in Southeast Arizona has been transformed over the past month. But not in the way Napolitano claims.

Now, when men go out to work at their corrals, sometimes miles from the house, wives follow along, afraid to be home alone.

Up in Rodeo, N.M., Tess Shultis no longer allows her two boys to play outside the house.

"Not unless me or their dad is with them," says Shultis, a clerk at the market in Rodeo. "It's too dangerous."

Transformed.

The most dangerous thing you can do on the border now? Reach for your cell phone. Forget you even own one. Keep your hands visible. No sudden moves.

If you encounter the wrong guy, and he thinks you're calling Border Patrol, he might start shooting. That's likely what happened to Krentz.

It's supposition, but his killer probably has a criminal record, and rather than get arrested for it, he opened fire. For good measure, he shot Rob's cow dog, too, breaking its back. The animal had to be put down later.

The killer's tracks led to Mexico along Black Draw, a heavily used smuggler trail through the San Bernardino National Wildlife Refuge. The shooter is still at large.

The Cochise County sheriff has released a photo of a person wanted for questioning in robberies around Portal, in the Chiricahua Mountains. Some suspect a connection to the Krentz murder.

The man, Alejandro Chavez-Vasquez, was arrested in Southern Arizona's Santa Cruz County in early May 2004; the following month, he was charged with felony re-entry after deportation, according to federal court records. To earn that charge, he'd likely been caught crossing the border multiple times. In a plea agreement, he got 36 months of supervised release and a fine of $100.

Cochise County sheriff's spokesperson Carol Capas says Chavez-Vasquez also has convictions in this country for theft, sexual assault, motor-vehicle theft and narcotics possession, and has used multiple birthdates in dealing with police. Capas said some of his crimes occurred in Nevada, but she could not name other states in which he might've been active.

Krentz's killer, whoever it is, might've been jacked up on something. Many smugglers take meth or some form of speed to keep moving.

Anna Magoffin, who lives along Geronimo Trail, finds needles and discarded steroid vials on her horseback rides across the borderlands. "These guys aren't just walking," she says. "They're bumped up on something."

Not surprisingly, sympathy for illegal crossers has cratered.

"I've detected a hardening of hearts," says Lynn Kartchner, who co-owns a gun shop in Douglas. "People who used to give them water and a sandwich and let them sleep in the shade, now they're going to run them off at gunpoint."

In the days since the murder, Kartchner's business has boomed. Some of his new customers are bird-watching lefties from Portal who've suddenly become sudden Second Amendment converts, now that grim reality has hit them, too.

And what of our government's talk of comprehensive immigration reform? Of amnesty? It has made the crisis worse.

The words have been all over Mexican TV and radio, and the result is a rush to the border, same as it ever was, says Magoffin.

During the Bush years, she could look south from her house to a highway in Mexico and see big white buses unloading people. They'd line up single file and march into the country.

"It was like a long snake of people walking through the desert," Magoffin says. "The amnesty talk today has the big loads going through again."

Transformed.

But the polite border-crossing worker—some are still out there—has given way to the bad hombre. In the Tucson sector, 17 percent of those arrested by the Border Patrol have criminal records in the United States.

The most alarming reality is the takeover of people-smuggling operations by the drug cartels. Now, a group of 15 from, say, Chiapas, Mexico, with jobs lined up in Chicago, can't get into the country without dealing with the drug operations that own the trails.

To cross around Douglas, the going rate is up to $2,500 per person. When the Chiapas guys say they don't have it, the coyote hands them his drugs and says, "Carry this, and you can come in for free, and we'll guide you"—and up they come.

The coyote is accompanied by another fellow, also armed, who serves as muscle to make sure the workers turned mules don't drop the product and bolt.

If Border Patrol happens to jump the group, a few of the workers might get rounded up while the coyote and his muscle disappear into the mountains, armed and dangerous—and good luck finding them.

They know the trails like their own faces in the mirror, because they make those runs over and over again.

When I visited Ladd recently, he uttered a chilling remark that Dever echoed in his testimony in Washington last week: "I guarantee that every group coming across that border today has a gun behind it."

We can have a discussion about open labor markets, about legalizing drugs, about our insatiable demand for drugs, about the skill of the cartels at getting their junk into the country and how that creates more demand than there otherwise would be.

But that's for another time. The immediate issue: How do we protect American citizens from this imminent danger?

The worst thought of all is that maybe the federal government is incapable of doing it. Maybe the bureaucracy is too big to do much of ... anything.

The communications issue inspires zero confidence.

Susan Pope's husband, Louie, has worked closely with the Border Patrol, even volunteering to show young agents how to work the terrain and the trails. He likes some of what he sees.

"They're good kids, and they damn sure want to work," says Pope.

But he has also watched the agency regularly put two men on a trail to track a group of 20, without maps, night-vision equipment or radios.

Veterinarian Gary Thrasher tells of being flagged down on an isolated ranch road at night by an agent left there to track a group alone—again, with no radio.

If he needed backup, the agent was told to use his personal cell phone. But the battery had gone dead, and he asked to borrow Thrasher's cell.

For years, at every meeting with the Border Patrol, residents of the Chiricahua Corridor have pleaded with Border Patrol to fix its communication problems.

The corridor runs along a seam between the agency's Douglas and Lordsburg sectors, and the two sectors have been unable to communicate with each other.

Border Patrol agents stationed at forward operating bases out on Geronimo Trail, east of Douglas, can't radio back to headquarters in town.

Residents along Geronimo Trail can't call the forward operating base. Rancher Bill McDonald says if trouble brews at his place, he has to drive to the base, 5 miles away on dirt roads.

After Krentz was shot, Border Patrol agents and sheriff's deputies worked the area looking for clues, but they couldn't communicate with each other.

Close observers say Krentz's killer was likely back in Mexico well before Rob's body was located, so bad communications probably didn't play a role in his escape.

Within days of the murder, after Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords contacted DHS about the sorry state of communications in the corridor, satellite GPS radios arrived.

But it took a death, and a congresswoman raising hell, to get the bureaucracy to finally move.

Another loud plea, widely heard, is that the Border Patrol needs to be on the border itself, not tracking people five miles north of the line, or 30 miles north.

Thrasher, who travels the borderlands daily in his work, has made this his signature issue, and his view reflects the cynicism some feel toward the Border Patrol. He says the fall-back strategy cedes American land to the gangs and puts citizens at risk.

"There is no interest among the higher-up in stopping this at the border," says Thrasher. "Instead of being preventative, they're reactionary, because then they can show all the wonderful things they're doing. Look at how many arrests we made. Look at all the pot we caught.

"The border should be our line in the sand. That's where we need to stop them before they get to any citizens."

In fairness, Border Patrol has always said they don't have enough manpower to form a blockade at the border, and backing up allows more time to make arrests. They make a similar argument with fencing, saying it pushes illegals out into remote areas and gives agents days rather than hours to make arrests.

But that bothers Thrasher, too. Stop them at the line, and nobody dies in the backcountry.

"We push them way out and give them a two-day head start, then run them down," says Thrasher, who played football for Woody Hayes at Ohio State. "Rob's murder was terrible, and the danger everybody faces is terrible. But all of us out here are sick of seeing the bodies (of illegals), too."

The one that haunts him the most, oddly, was one he never saw. But a rancher in the Chiricahuas told Thrasher the story.

A woman had died up in the mesquite and had been there long enough for the coyotes to get to her. When searchers went out to bag the body parts, they found her head here, some guts over there, a scatter of limbs.

When the rancher picked up an arm, he noticed the Timex watch on the woman's wrist still ticking.

The idea of ceding American ground to the cartels is the pulse point of this crisis, because fundamentally, this is a fight for land. It's going on in this country and on ranches in northern Mexico, where a lot of good folks there have it even worse than we do.

Every trail on our border is either bought or won through blood. The profits are great, and no gang that controls valuable land is going to give it up willingly.

As John Ladd says, "Nobody has tried to stop them yet. But if we do, it's going to be a battle."

Do we have the political will to take it on now, after Krentz?

A telling sign will be the rules of engagement under which troops, should the president decide to send them, will operate. Giffords and Sens. John McCain and Jon Kyl have called for the immediate deployment National Guard troops.

Will they be allowed to stand their ground if challenged? Will they have bullets in their guns?

Remember back in January 2007, when unidentified armed men approached a National Guard outpost on the border near Sasabe, southwest of Tucson, and the soldiers followed orders and fled?

All across that section of the border, you could hear residents wailing, "No! Protect us! Why are you here if not to protect us?!"

If that was a probe by the cartels to see if the gringos were finally serious, they got their answer.

We can't do that again.

As Susan Pope says, "If we don't stop it now, God help us, because He's the only one who'll be able to. It'll send a message to the cartels, 'Hey, it's a free for all. Come on up.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 10 - 02:25 PM

Well, pdq, maybe you'll be pleased to know that Rand Paul wants to eliminate birthright citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 28 May 10 - 05:19 PM

If we had a single-payer system hospitals wouldn't close because of non-paying customers.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 10 - 07:41 PM

No, we'd just all pay for them. I'd rather pay $4.00 a pound for tomatoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 10 - 08:42 PM

Tomatoes?

Do like a lot of us do and grow your own!

{compliments to Guy Clark}

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 10 - 02:34 AM

No, we'd just all pay for them. I'd rather pay $4.00 a pound for tomatoes.

Now just get megaveg to go along. Good luck. Write.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Bobert
Date: 29 May 10 - 07:22 AM

Here's the part that folks don't like... The econmy of the 90's was fueled by cheap immigrant labor... That meant more and more taxes collected... More econimic growth... Hey, more money into Social Security...

I mean, it's easy to just look at the costs associated with immigrant (legal and otherwise) and say, "Well, Ralph, theat's the entire story..."

Well, it's not the entire story... It's only half the story...

There is a balance sheet that folks who now are on the hate-immagrants bandwagon are not willing to recognize as part of the equation...

Just looking on the cost side is very narrow minded...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 10 - 08:46 AM

And now they're here, and now we're supporting them, after they've become American super-consumers.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 10 - 12:00 PM

Rig: "..they've become American super-consumers".

Superconsumers? Somehow I don't visualise most immigrants, illegal or otherwise, buying the megamansions any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 10 - 12:29 PM

No, but instead of buying a ear of corn, the buy a bag of dorritos(sp?) and need to throw away the bag, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 10 - 01:18 PM

The Governator has made a hilarious quip about the Arizona situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 10 - 02:08 PM

"...instead of buying a ear of corn, the buy a bag of dorritos(sp?)"

Rig, I think you'll find that Mexicans have a MUCH longer history involving *corn* than we/YOU do. That is a pure dee snide assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 10 - 06:06 PM

Ebbie - I'm aware of the relationship between Mexican culture and corn. That's why I used that example. Corn is corn, but once it is processed into a fast food product, the environment has to absorb the pollutants of processing, and then the products of packaging, and the then the disposal of everything conncected to both. More people consuming those kinds of products places a larger burden on resources and the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

Well, the big march is history and I didn't see anything on the news about Al Sharpton. He must be slipping.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM

I'll supply the banana.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

Thanks, mouse. Maybe somebody will put it on you-tube.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:53 PM

FactCheck article on the Arizona law.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:10 PM

Oh yeah...600. Figure that out if you can.