BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:51 PM

Here's the law, if anyone cares to read it.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf



r

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:31 PM

Rigs: "
Here's the law, if anyone cares to read it.
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Gosh! You mean Mudcatters will read it before the Administration!!???!!
Wow!..and to think there are those who are actually believing what Washington is telling them about it!..and they admit they haven't even read it! Now you can read it yourself!!

Like I've said NUMEROUS times on here, They tell you WHAT to THINK, rather than HOW to THINK!
(...."and you think we're talkin' about someone else"---Frank Zappa)
Good for you, Rigs!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

"They tell you WHAT to THINK, rather than HOW to THINK!"

            Yeah, they really do that in Ethnic Studies classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

When's the last time you took an ethnic studies class?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM

Nobody concerned themselves with ethnic studies when I went to school, Mouse. Then, we were all simply Americans. I've seen some taught, though, and it ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:20 PM

Mouser: "When's the last time you took an ethnic studies class?"

Have you really read the Arizona law, yet???....or before Rigs posted it??...or didn't bother?..because you've already formed an opinion?

Curiously,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

Here's an article published yesterday by the Associated Press using actual crime statistics saying that the border area is actually safer than many other parts of the country and is getting safer every year. Why don't the Arizona lawmakers have this information? The most likely explanation is that they do and are grandstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

All of this is very curous, especially the timing. But article tracks violent crimes, and as Phoenix has become the kidnapping capital of America, one can assume they don't consider kidnapping to be a violent crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: John P
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:56 PM

Well, the timing isn't all that curious. With all the noise in the air about the Arizona law, it makes sense that someone would do the math.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:15 PM

All of this is very curous, especially the timing. But article tracks violent crimes, and as Phoenix has become the kidnapping capital of America, one can assume they don't consider kidnapping to be a violent crime.

Either that or the number of kidnappings is too small to make a dent in the number of other violent crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM

Yes, otherwise the criminals might be carrying out those crimes on people that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM

Indeed! And it might not be happening at all if the people who shouldn't be there weren't.

Of course, the only violent crimes they know about are the ones that are reported, and the illegals probably aren't reporting a lot of crimes in Arizona right now--thankfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:46 PM

There are a few Mudcatters with open minds, so, for them:

                                                      
                                                          Phoenix kidnappings, drugs, illegals

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:24 AM

Arrest them. Lock them up and throw away the key. But don't make victims and witnesses afraid to come forward and report kidnappings for fear of deportation. That is just dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

The point is, Art, to make illegal victims go home where they belong - The more important issue is getting them out of the country...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

Jan Brewer's policy is institutionalized xenophobia. Arizona has never been known for its tolerance level to outsiders, let alone Hispanic people.

The State of John McCain (who attempted to outlaw MLK day), Barry Goldwater and William Rehnquist should send cold shudders up the spines of anyone who isn't part of Rick Perry's Texas, Bobby Jindal's Louisiana or Haley Barbour's Mississippi.

Borat seemed to bring out the worst in the Arizona citizenry.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM

Actually, it's having to pay huge sums of money for the feeding and keeping of illegal aliens, while they are seeing their school districts destroyed, that brings out the worst in Arizona citizenry.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM

So, Rig, you think the Arizona citizenry will prefer wasting their tax dollars for the care and feeding of trial lawyers--since that will be the result of this law--rather than having illegal aliens pay taxes, especially Social Security, for services that they will never use.

Interesting.

And it hasn't penetrated your brain that if you don't want illegal aliens to stay, you should make legal entry and departure easier.

Since if you make it as difficult and expensive as it is now, they will never leave--since they would not look forward to the same process again if they want to return.

And if you care at all about US workers, you should make the current illegal workers legal--since the fact that they are not gives employers carte blanche to underpay them--it they complain they know they will be summarily deported.

So it seems you don't in fact care at all about US workers.

Time for you to start thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

"if they complain..."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:02 PM

"And it hasn't penetrated your brain that if you don't want illegal aliens to stay, you should make legal entry and departure easier."

             That would only work if you eliminate "birthright citizenship" first.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

Sorry, I can't seem to keep my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:22 PM

Try a bagel...they're heavier!

Wink,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:04 AM

Jan Brewer takes steps to step on American justice. What do you expect from Arizona?
The white community in Arizona have been doing their "purges" for years. Rehnquist down at the polls keeping minorities from voting, is a case in point. McCain refusing to recognize MLK Day in Arizona, another one. Barry Goldwater certainly didn't have minority sentiment in mind in his crusades.

Arizona btw translates to "arid zone". So what else is new?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

Still, if we don't save civilization there, the whole country is sunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:39 AM

"...eliminate birthright citizenship first."

Wrong.

And stupid.

That move will solve no problem and create a new one.   Added to which, it's DOA--it will never make it through Congress. There are more than enough sensible people-people not subject to absurd racist nightmares-- in the US to kill that idea if it ever raises its ugly head.

As we've discussed before, that is the way to ensure a young underclass with no ties to the US.    Sounds like you would like riots similar to those France has had--and will have again.

And if you now say that riots will make people realize there is a problem, that, as usual with your brilliant suggestions, is worse than useless--everybody already knows there is a problem.

Somehow we've seen this movie before. You need to get those voices out of your head.
Which as I've said before, will not happen--since you want them there.

And round and round we go.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

Sen. Bingaman has asked for an official ruling on whether or not New Mexicans should be advised to obtain US passports to travel to Arizona, since NM considers a driver's license to be proof of the ability to drive and doesn't require proof of citizenship or legal residency to get one. More than half the population of NM is of whole or partial Hispanic ancestry.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM

The easier solution would be to simply require proof of citizenship to get a driver's license.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

"The easier solution would be to simply require proof of citizenship to get a driver's license."
So how does that work out for citizens whose current licenses don't expire for several years? Would everyone be required to required to obtain a new license, which indicated verification of citizenship, immediately? Or should the necessity to do so, to avoid major disruption of one's life, simply be considered the appropriate price for being a bit brown?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

Why? I'd rather know that the person in the next lane knows how to drive than that he is a citizen. What does one have to do with the other?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

Unidentified Guest said:

What one has to do with the other is, if he/she is illegal he/she shouldn't be in the country causing traffic accidents.

Two serious logical problems with that comment, Guest:

1. It's a classical fallacy, called "begging the question". That is, it assumes as fact the very point what was to be argued. The question is whether there is any relation between being in the country illegally and unsafe driving. You assume in your comment that there is.

2. Also, we could equally say "if he/she is entirely legal, a citizen, he/she shouldn't be in the country causing traffic accidents."

Legalizing someone, giving them a green card, or making them a citizen doesn't make them a good and safe driver.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM

What one has to do with the other is, if he/she is illegal he/she shouldn't be in the country causing traffic accidents.

---

You're right Dave, and as far as the illegal go, a lot of them are suspected to have been driving under the influence of Roman Catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

Now, now, everyone; don't assume that Riginsliner's "good natured joke" reflects anything about his real attitudes...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

I agree, FrogPrince- and it didn't fool me. I am certainly convinced that down deep he has an equal opinion of all races and cultures. In his belief system, they are all as good as his own and he will defend them to the death (not his, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:31 PM

Of course, if "his" death were to materialize, there'd be no way he could defend them. I mean, well, unless...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:40 PM

Jeez! They can always go to downtown L.A., and get any papers they want, for about fifty bucks! True story!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM

Yeah, I remember laying a guy off in California once, in the winter when there was nothing going on, and he went down to file for unemployment compensation, and some Mexican had already filed a claim using that guy's social security number.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM

Well, now. Damn that Mexican.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:04 PM

I suspect it happens all the time, but nobody ever seems to report on these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Yes, therefore illegal immigrants should all be shot?

Actually there are plenty of social security number "twins". When I worked at Boeing, there were about 200,000 workers, and of those about 100 were social security number "twins" of someone else in the company (i.e. about 50 SSN's were shared).

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:37 PM

Wow, MT. I didn't know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM

Lost my cookie again

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:46 PM

"happens all the time". In your head, at any rate.



To return to an earlier, related, topic.

It is clear to any thinking person that if illegal immigrants are forcing wages down for US citizens, it is because they can be exploited by employers who can underpay and otherwise mistreat them.   If they complain, they know they will be summarily deported.

It is also obvious to any sentient being that therefore if they were citizens, the same employers could not use this tactic.

So the blazingly clear solution is to put these illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship.   That way employers would be forced to pay them what they pay US citizens. And the downward pressure on citizens' wages would cease.

So anybody who does not support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, yet claims to be concerned about US workers is a hypocrite.

If you disagree, exactly why is this not true?



By the way, new illegal immigrants coming into the country would have no bearing on this, since the same would hold true for them--the goal should be to make them all citizens.

So you need not bother with that pathetic red herring.

We are only talking here about illegal immigrants already in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:06 PM

Not even that is necessary, Ron. A greatly expanded "guest worker" program, with legal protections including entitlement to minimum wage, employer-paid health insurance and the right to complain to the DOL, a renewable term, eligibility to receive earned Social Security benefits, etc. would solve the problem quickly and easily. Most migrants don't want to stay in the US. This isn't home; their culture and families are elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:30 PM

It's weird about them cookies--I need to contact the Girl Scouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM

So some kid is born in the US to parents who are here as students, workers or whatever. His parents take him back home when they go. Why should he even care if he is legally a US citizen? Is this somehow special to a Panamanian, a German or a Thai?

If you feel that is an issue, get your senator or representative to cosponsor Nathan Deal's birthright citizenship bill. Of course, it has never gotten out of committee and it has zero chance of passage if it ever did.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM

I'm glad to see the dialogue has shifted, into doing things legally! Whether or not you agree with our laws or not, they are our laws! If immigrants did things legally, employers would find it harder to exploit them, political parties wouldn't be so inclined to wrongly load the electorate, they could go to and fro, to visit their families, taxes might get paid, the playing field would not discriminate against U.S. citizens, or Mexican(or any other), there might be some distancing away from those who do things legally, and other illegal activities...on BOTH sides of the border, and people tend to protect and or defend that which causes no threat to them! ...nor would they be prone to have animosity, and think, "I'll rip em' off, fuck 'em"

Keep going!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM

That may be a good thing. Since such a bill clearly violates the plain language of Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, it will go directly to the US Supreme Court and put the whole issue of "birthright citizenship" to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:19 AM

Will Arizona also make guns illegal, and religion, and public gathering?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:41 PM

"...such a bill... will go directly to the US Supreme Court and put the whole issue of "birthright citizenship" to bed."


            And that's what the proponents are looking for. The Supreme Court will either decide in their favor, or tell them to change the 14th amendment, which they will promptly do...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

Um, no, SCOTUS can't demand changes in the constitution. Their job is to interpret the constitution, not change it. Read it sometime, it tells all about it.