BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 03:29 PM

Oh yeah...that was #100.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 04:59 PM

"In 1998, the House Oversight Committee dismissed Dornan's challenge after concluding that 750 to 800 votes cast were invalid, still short of Sanchez's 984-win, based on crosschecks with immigration records."

               But still proving illegal aliens cast votes.




    "Has anyone yet introduced a bill in Congress to change the 14th Amendment to the Constitution to eliminate "birthright" citizenship or has the accepted definition been challenged in US courts?"

             Until they do, meaningful immigration reform is dead in the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:12 PM

"In 1998, the House Oversight Committee dismissed Dornan's challenge after concluding that 750 to 800 votes cast were invalid, still short of Sanchez's 984-win, based on crosschecks with immigration records."

               But still proving illegal aliens cast votes." Rig

That does not prove anything of the sort, Rig. There are numerous reasons why a ballot is invalidated. Among them:

* Not a resident of that particular state
* A non-reinstated felon
* Not registered to vote
* Not registered to vote in time to vote in that particular election
* Invalid party registration, i.e. more than one party check marked
* A write-in candidate without the required check mark
* A protest vote, i.e. for Mickey Mouse
* An absentee ballot that was not posted in time.
* A badly bungled ballot. If they can't decipher intention, they invalidate the vote(s)
* The person check marked every single square (It has happened)
* The person was visibly - and audibly - intoxicated or under the influence
* The person was ejected from the premises

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:45 PM

But the primary reason was illegal aliens casting votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:26 PM

I have read every post of yours here Rig, and you display an antihispanic bigotry that its every bit as nasty as historic antisemitism. Go and wash your mouth out with soap and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:54 PM

Actually, Richard, I'm not anti-anybody. I'm just hoping to save the planet. No sense in wasting soap and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:02 PM

"...concluding that 750 to 800 votes cast were invalid,..."

Invalid might be for many reasons. It does not prove anything specific about why.

Everyone knows that the driving force behind some of these laws and claims IS racially motivated. Even when a law or precaution is needed, many of those who want it are only vaguely concerned with the general welfare.
What we are concerned with is how to have laws and practices that can't easily be used to harass decent, legal citizens. No one can really think of how to check on those who are already in this country illegally. Cracking down on employers might help...and finding better ways to allow LEGAL temporary workers will also....but many want to come here and 'melt into' the regular population and not even try to go home again. Some are criminals....but many are just poor, out-of-work folks looking for a better life.
   
The fact that this country was built by immigration is only marginally relevant these days....we don't NEED everyone who thinks they might like come here.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Genie
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:12 PM

Rig, I know the issue of "anchor babies" and "birthright citizenship" is related, but this thread is really about a law that will require everyone to carry proof of legal resident status at all times.   And it's also about a law that can and probably will be used to disenfranchise a lot of Hispanic-American voters.
That is really a topic unto itself. It's both narrower than and broader than the issue of "birthright citizenship."   Can we please talk about that in its own thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Genie
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:17 PM

Rig, even if 984 votes - Sanchez's margin of victory - had been cast illegally (which was not the case), how could anyone know that all of those illegals ballots had been cast for Sanchez?

OTOH, Jan Brewer, when Secretary Of State in AZ, purged the voter registration rolls of about 33% of Hispanic registered voters -- many of them being actually legally eligible to vote.

Subject: New Mexico governor disenfrancises Hispanic voters
From: Genie
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:21 PM

Oh, and, Rig, the fact that there were illegally cast votes does not imply that they were all cast by illegal aliens. There are other kinds of illegal votes: double voting by the same individual; underage people voting; people voting who are citizens but not residents of the precinct in which they vote; convicted felons voting when it's not legal; etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM

Genie - I will agree that no one was able to determine why the votes were invalid. I will further argee that the law limits itself to trying to contain illegal immigration in Arizona, but the thread is about Jan Brewer taking steps to save America, whether that was what she intended or not...

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 01:45 AM

You know, my friends, if you don't live in a border state like Arizona, you really don't know very much about what it's like. Most of the sentiment expressed in this thread is critical of those of us who DO live in a border state and support what our governer did. No empathy or attempt at understanding from the critics what it is to live in one. So why don't you just bug off, give it some time and see what happens as a result of this Bill passing into law. Most of you don't know a damn thing about what the law is all about anyway. Mostly we are getting knee-jerk reactions from people who don't have the foggiest idea about what they are taking about. No offense intended.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 02:39 AM

Sorry, Doug, but you don't have to live in a border state to be concerned about violation of people's 4th Amendment rights or to question the fairness or constitutionality of this law.

Nobody's denying the magnitude or seriousness of the problem. But you don't remedy one problem by creating thousands of others. You don't solve the problem of illegals by harassing and persecuting all sorts of legal residents.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 08:19 AM

Uh huh. Those of us who DO live in border states think this law is unbelievably bad for so many reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 08:51 AM

You're right, Doug. I was pretty accomodating to immigration until I spent 20 years in California. They absolutely trashed the place, and look at it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:02 AM

...wasn't it *Peter* Brewer and *Jan* Stewer?

Nearly Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer (Peter Gurney, Peter Day, Daniel Whiddon, Harry Hawk, Old uncle Tom Cobleigh and all...)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:19 AM

Then there's that other Brewer!


ONE TOKE OVER THE LINE
Brewer & Shipley


One toke over the line sweet Jesus
One toke over the line
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line

Awaitin' for the train that goes home, sweet Mary
Hopin' that the train is on time
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line

Whoooo do you love, I hope it's me
I've bin a changin', as you can plainly see
I felt the joy and I learned about the pain
that my momma said
If I should choose to make a part of me,
surely strike me dead
Now I'm one toke over the line sweet Jesus
One toke over the line
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line
I'm waitin' for the train that goes home sweet Mary
Hopin' that the train is on time
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line

I bin away a country mile,
Now I'm returnin' showin' off a smile
I met all the girls and loved myself a few
Ended by surprise like everything else I've been through
It opened up my eyes and now I'm
One toke over the line sweet Jesus
One toke over the line
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
Don't you just know I waitin'
for the train that goes home sweet Mary
Hopin' that the train is on time
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line

Don't you just know I waitin'
for the train that goes home sweet Mary
Hopin' that the train is on time
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line

I want to be
One toke over the line sweet Jesus
One toke over the line
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line
Don't you just know I waitin'
for the train that goes home sweet Mary
Hopin' that the train is on time
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over the line
Sittin' downtown in a railway station
One toke over line
One toke, one toke over the line

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:14 PM

Surely Peter Davy

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM

Pima County (Tucson) Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has informed the governor of Arizona that "what she and the legislature has accomplished is morally wrong and a national embarrassment." and that he has no intention of complying with this law.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 09:19 PM

Oh, wow. Good for him. I guess we'll find out now who has the most clout. If she does, the Sheriff is not long for the job, methinks. If he does? What then? I can easily believe that some in Arizona consider it a "national embarrassment". Rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:17 PM

Just heard that Utah is going to pass a similar bill. It seems like every time Arizona tightens up immigration enforcement, more illegal flock to Utah.

                Maybe there's hope for the environment yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:40 PM

Border states aren't the only ones with illegal immigrants in them. Any state that has hand-picked agricultural products will have illegal immigrants because the corporations hire them "under the table" for sub-legal wages. Because they can, and because they know the illegals can't complain about it or they'll be deported. If they didn't your food would cost twice what it does now.

It's always sweet when vocal anti-immigration fatcats are caught with illegal household workers. Do as they say, not as they do.

There is no population problem. The US barely has sustainability WITH immigration. No other first-world nation has sustainability. Overpopulation is a third-world problem, and doesn't directly affect the US at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:42 PM

Oh, and I meant to ask: how does harrassing brown people save America?

Oh and "Mexican" and "Hispanic" are not races. Spaniards are Europeans. Most Mexicans are either all white, or a mix of white and native North American.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:20 AM

"Overpopulation is a third-world problem, and doesn't directly affect the US at all."

             Unless people from third-world nations come to the US, especially if they come illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:32 AM

Unless there's an unprecedented and unlooked-for acceleration in illegal immigration, it's really not a problem. A slowly growing population isn't going to hurt the USA any. It's not growing at anything like the rate it did in the 19th century. And that didn't kill us.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:27 AM

"Really not a problem, Mousethief?" Does your state ...oh well, whatever.

DougR

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:43 AM

Does my state's population grow? Hell yes. Between 1980 and now I believe it's just about doubled (fucking Microsoft). What was your point?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:59 AM

Microsoft is one of the vilest importers of people on the planet.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:20 PM

My point was, Mousethief, arguing with someone with your POV is a waste of time.

DougR

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:17 PM

"Someone should introduce the old gal to a chollo." ~ Q

Er, well...did you mean cholo? Perhaps cholla?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:26 PM

She's forging ahead. She's right and she knows it. Now Texas, Arkansas and Utah are drafting similar state enforcement statutes.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:44 PM

My point was, Mousethief, arguing with someone with your POV is a waste of time.

No wonder Teabaggers take guns to town hall meetings instead of reasoned arguments. They can't be bothered to reasonably argue with their opposition, because they have your attitude as displayed in this quote. You are the cause of the breakdown of civility in American political discourse.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:11 AM

"Unless there's an unprecedented and unlooked-for acceleration in illegal immigration, it's really not a problem."


                     There is, and it's destroying the planet. That's the point.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:07 AM

Destroying the planet, Rig? I've heard of 'Eurocentric' but you have a very bad case of usentric.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:10 AM

The impact of illigal immigration from Mexico is not equally distrubuted.

People in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont have seen no change in their states' demographics in 40 years, therefore they feel comfortable labling the people of sourthern California and Arizona "xenophobes" or worse.

It is different for someone who has watched their high school go from the "92nd percentile" scholastically to the "12th percentile" in that same time. The schools in California are now rated below Mississippi and Arkansas, in many cases, and have dropout rates over 50%.

The United States cannot compete with Japan, China, India, and others countries now, and the future is probably worse.

The immigration from distant countries has often been by the best, brightest and most educated of their country. It was once called thet "Brain Drain", where doctors and scientists from India, Indonesia and other countries came here, to the detriment of their native countries.

One problem is that Mexico sends us their misfits, criminals and uneducated. There are no doctors or scientists. There are no wealthy successful (non-criminal) businessmen seeking accross the US border at night or riding the freight trains up from Mexico City.

We need a good dialogue in the United States. We have a real problem here, and hissing and spitting at anyone who says someting you don't want to here gets us nowhere.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:27 AM

pdq - Yes, you are right on all counts. After moving back to Oregon--only one state away--people tell me I sound like a racist when all I do is mention all of the problems the Latino immigrants have caused in California.
             It's beginning to seep into Oregon now, and people are gradually changing their minds.
             The other issue that the Mexican government never seems to want to talk about is all of the money the immigrants send back to Mexico. Any one who ignores that part of the equation seems to me to be oblivious to the economic short comings as well.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:18 PM

This from the president of the University of Arizona: President Shelton reports: "We have already begun to feel an impact from SB1070. The families of a number of out-of-state students (to date all of them honors students) have told us that they are changing their plans and will be sending their children to universities in other states. This should sadden anyone who cares about attracting the best and brightest students to Arizona."

The boycott begins.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: Genie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:06 PM

Rig: "She's forging ahead. She's right and she knows it. Now Texas, Arkansas and Utah are drafting similar state enforcement statutes."

That doesn't mean they're right, Rig. Drafting and pushing laws like this will shore up the right-wing Republican base and energize them, even if the laws are declared unconstitutional or if they're repealed by the state legislatures.   Jan Brewer and other Republican politicians know that.

Subject: Immigrants: Jan Brewer targets Hispanics
From: Genie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:13 PM

Rig. "The other issue that the Mexican government never seems to want to talk about is all of the money the immigrants send back to Mexico. Any one who ignores that part of the equation seems to me to be oblivious to the economic short comings as well."

Then there's all the money the multinational corporations (often paying little in US taxes) send back to other countries when people in the US fill their pockets buy buying from them.
That's a much bigger money drain than what the Mexican fruit pickers' wages account for.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:45 PM

You might be right, Genie. Any drain at all right now is very discouraging.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: John P
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:36 PM

Arizona just passed a law which is in direct violation of the U.S. Constitution, or will be as soon as they arrest their first citizen without probable cause. It doesn't matter what state I live in, I can still see this very clearly. Why can't you Rig and Doug?

Will you still be in support of this law when the lawsuits against police officers and the State of Arizona start piling up?

And just be clear, there is nothing about this law that has anything to do with saving the planet. It in no way deals with environmentalism or over-population. Saying so is some really silly misdirection and changing of the subject.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:24 PM

Eastern Washington is mostly agricultural. How many illegal immigrants make it this far north, I don't know for sure, but there are lots of them. They help get the crops in. This is long hours and dirty, sweaty work, and they get paid by the hundredweight or the bushel basket, so it's slog, slog, slog all day long, usually in dusty, insecticide laden air, just to make a few bucks.

When the season is over, they leave.

Most U. S. citizens, no matter how down and out, simply won't touch work like this.

The real problem is not so much illegal immigrants; it is legal immigrants who become naturalized. They tend to vote about 2 to 1 for Democrats rather than Republicans.

"Ay, there's the rub!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:34 PM

"When the season is over, they leave."

         Unless they happen to get pregnant and come fresh in America, then they're here for ever, along with their uncles, aunts, parents, cousins, etc, etc...

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:25 AM

Oh God! Can't have those brown people in America forever! Must...preserve...white...supremacy!

Subject: Arizona targets Hispanic-Americans' rights
From: Genie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:33 AM

C'mon, Rig, that myth of the "cousins, aunts & uncles, etc." being allowed in because some immigrant becomes legal has been busted way back in this thread. Those kin who are not immediate family don't have special status.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: Genie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:35 AM

Actually, the more we examine this new AZ law, the more it looks like a giant conspiracy (not very hidden) to line the pockets of those pesky TRIAL LAWYERS - plus various and sundry people who will be paid for rounding up "suspicious looking" people and "processing" the dealings with them in various ways.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM

Wonder if the AZ law enforcement will have quotas on arrests to meet, like Virginia State Troopers do to issue so may speeding tickets per month.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:48 AM

Actually, the Arizona law simply restates what is already against the law under federal statute. The problems was, the feds simply refused to enforce it.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 10:50 AM

" Unless they happen to get pregnant and come fresh in America"
Why would anyone suspect Riginslinger of racism or zenophobia? He would never say anything dehumanizing about any particular group of people.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:36 PM

John P: No, I do not know that the Arizona law is unconstitutional. I am not a Constitutional lawyer. Are you?

DougR