BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:31 AM

GfS,

"Hey, ever hear a wounded soldier cry for his 'Mommy', and then held his bloody, shredded body as he died?..or watched half naked children stagger down the street, lost and dazed, while the naked part of their bodies were scorched, and they screamed in pain so hard they couldn't even catch their breath?..or mothers in shock holding one of their dead family members in their arms?"


Have you?

NO!


I note that you find the image of Israelis suffering like this to be upsetting, but you don't have any interest in Palestinians suffering the same fate.

In fact, when asked to consider Palestinian death and suffering, you say:

"blah blah blah".


Gfs - Do you support the IDF killing civilians in Gaza, yes or no?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:23 AM

Bobad,

To addd to my last post, in fact, those Israelis who do protest are usually met by violent angry right wing counter demonstrators who intimidate and harass the dissenters while the police turn a blind eye.

In addition, those Israelis who work in Gaza to try to help alleviate some of the suffering and/or protest their countrys actions/policies are often on the receiving end of IDF brutality.

So I wouldn't go shouting about alleged Israeli state tolerance to dissenting views - they have an image to keep up, but its a struggle for them that they are seeing less and less point in wasting time on, being so sure that they are fully justified.


It was interesting to read about Netanyahu saying recently that as Israeli leader he was burdened with trying to find a balance between the conflicting ideologies of Zionism on the one hand and humanitarianism on the other.

Interesting that the Israelki leader should see these two concerns as distinct and in conflict with one another.

Finding a balance between Zionism and Humanitarianism.

It says that in his view Zionism is non-humanitarian.

This was in the same speech that he spoke about "preserving the jewish character" of Israel.


In the UK, Nick Griffin talks about preserving the British character of England.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:07 AM

"I've noticed that the Hamas apologists are fond of finding and quoting Jewish voices of dissent. Isn't it wonderful that Israel is a country in which one has that right unlike it's neighbours, where dissent usually leads to death."

This is because non Jewish voices, especially Arab voices, that speak up against Israeli policy and IDF actions are generally pigeon holed as being "hamas apologists", "Israel Haters" and "anti semites".

These accusations can't be made against Jewish Israelis, though I suspect Bobad views Jewish Israelis who are opposed to their governments policies and IDF actions in Gaza as being self hating Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:50 PM

"I am off line for a week or so.
Enjoy. "

My manager used to do that while they adjusted his meds...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:25 PM

Yep bobad - as many others here have mentioned they appear cut from the same cloth to people other than their brainwashed followers.

As Orwell said in Animal Farm - the animals looked from pigs to man and back and saw no difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:07 PM

I am off line for a week or so.
Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM

I should also add another observation which is that whenever a Jewish source that declaims Hamas propaganda is cited, the Hamas apologists are quick to discredit it as being biased but when it speaks out against Israeli policy in Gaza it is quoted and used to buttress their own positions - strange that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM

"Isn't it wonderful that Israel is a country in which one has that right unlike it's neighbours, where dissent usually leads to death. "

Yep - but when that Jewish dissenter gets too much 'following', then the credibility attacks start, as that dissenter is then denounced as an 'enemy of the Jewish state'.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:39 PM

I've noticed that the Hamas apologists are fond of finding and quoting Jewish voices of dissent. Isn't it wonderful that Israel is a country in which one has that right unlike it's neighbours, where dissent usually leads to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:30 PM

"written by a Jewish Israeli, published in Al Haaretz"

Good try, but, again, that source will only have its integrity denied, mate. Stop trying to teach the pig to sing.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM

Read this, about what happened in "the Gaza Conflict" written by a Jewish Israeli, published in Al Haaretz

"Israel struck a civilian population that remains under its control, it didn't fulfill its obligation to distinguish between civilians and militants and used military force disproportionate with the tangible threat to its own civilians. Air Force drones and helicopters fired deadly missiles at civilians, many of them children; the Tank Corps and Navy shelled civilian neighborhoods with weapons not designed for precision strikes; soldiers received orders to fire on rescue crews; others fired on civilians carrying white flags; and others killed people in or near their homes. Troops used Gazans as human shields, soldiers detained civilians in abusive conditions, the army used white phosphorus shells in dense civilian areas and, on the eve of withdrawing, destroyed wide residential, industrial and agricultural areas.

There is only thing worse than denial – the admission that the IDF indeed acted as has been described, but that these actions are both normal and appropriate."

But why bother...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM

"Foolestroupe, this post and those that follow show that you assumed Israel was guilty because Lebanon said so.
That was gullible."

You have a rare and outstanding genius for misrepresenting other people's views, but not unique - I have lived thru such madness before.

My manager at work found I was using the work office computer system to write job applications for internal jobs, as was everybody else, including him. He made a great fuss trying to get me put up on internal disciplinary charges "for wasting company resources" - but the best bit was that at exactly the same time - and he saw no problem - he was using the exact same system to write a letter overseas to buy a book on - wait for it - "Ethics"! :-)

That's real Schizophrenia! and you are displaying a remarkable similarity of behavior sir! Continue to behave in this way, and I will stop believing that you are just a malicious Internet Troll, and are really in need of serious medical treatment! And I will call for all your friends who really care about you to help me sign the paperwork!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM

Jim Carroll"Keep in mind now, if if Sharia law rules that area, homosexuality brings a death penalty."
So there you have it - an anti-Semite, this time the Semites happen to be Arabs.
So piss of and take your parrot with you.
Jim Carroll"

There you have it??..Bullshit!..You are avoiding the question. This has Nothing to do with Semites(who are both Jews and Arabs, I know..Bobby Fisher went through that whole ordeal, saying as much..and I agree...)
Still that does NOT leave you an out....Answer the question, or shut the fuck up!

Do you support or approve of Hamas firing missiles into Israel???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:09 PM

"let your fingers do the walking"

... not the wa*king ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:57 PM

"Keep in mind now, if if Sharia law rules that area, homosexuality brings a death penalty."
So there you have it - an anti-Semite, this time the Semites happen to be Arabs.
So piss of and take your parrot with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:31 PM

Yes Jim, but none of them stand up.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM

Jim Carroll: "And in answer to your previous question - all of the things you describe happen to Palestinians as well as Israelis - only something like 50 times more if the casualty figures are anything to go by. And I don't have to imagine them; I have just been reading the description of the Israeli officer who deliberately shot a 13 year old girl, and when checked by one of his fellow soldiers replied that he would happily have shot her if she had been 3 years old - all there to be accessed for those who wish to find it."

Blah blah blah.....Do you support Hamas firing missiles into Israel?

Keep in mind now, if if Sharia law rules that area, homosexuality brings a death penalty.

..and 'Sanity' is merely a legal term. It is not a diagnosis...neither is 'insane'.

Now back to the question at hand, Do you approve or support Hamas firing missiles into Israel?

Simple question.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

"Hey, ever hear a wounded soldier cry for his 'Mommy', and then held his bloody, shredded body as he died?..or watched half naked children stagger down the street, lost and dazed, while the naked part of their bodies were scorched, and they screamed in pain so hard they couldn't even catch their breath?..or mothers in shock holding one of their dead family members in their arms?"
And in answer to your previous question - all of the things you describe happen to Palestinians as well as Israelis - only something like 50 times more if the casualty figures are anything to go by. And I don't have to imagine them; I have just been reading the description of the Israeli officer who deliberately shot a 13 year old girl, and when checked by one of his fellow soldiers replied that he would happily have shot her if she had been 3 years old - all there to be accessed for those who wish to find it.
Did you know that the name 'Sanity' was adopted by the british Peace Movement for one of the newspapers - perhaps you should consider changing it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:28 PM

GfS
Don't be obtuse - the anwer remains the same as I have given throughout this thread; if you are unable to understand it then you seem to be suffering from the same dyslexia your friend adopts to avoid answering arkward questions.
Do you still beat your wife/husband - yes or no?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM

Jim, YES or NO are you in favor of the missile launches on Israel from Hamas??
Yes or No!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

You have been given evidence of Israeli atrocities again and again; the shooting of civilians, the use of chemical weapons, the use of captured civilians as human shields, the massacre of up to three and a half thousand refugees, the bombardment of schools and hospitals with the pupils and patients in them, the destruction of homes, the constant humiliation experienced daily by Palestinians - all well reported and documented for those prepared to look for it.
You continually and arrogantly tell us that we need to open our minds, yet it is you who has been told again and again to listen to what people have to say and to stop distorting and misrepresenting what you are told.
You have one of the most closed minds I have ever come across, not only locked solid, but you appear to have thrown the key away.
GfS
"
"Jim, I can't help when reading your inane posts, that if I was hearing you speak your lines, they would be, clean crisp, soft, with a lisp, and very effeminate"
And I might say that when I read your posts I can picture the black uniform, the jodhpurs, complete with the peaked cap and the skull and crossbones badge - but I really don't go into those sewers, can't stand the smell.
Why is it you people feel the need to resort to personal invective - I usually put it down to lack of imagination, it certainly doesn't make your case very well - but it takes all kinds.
Personally, I'd rather remain an idealist, if that's what I am, than a vitriol spewing loud mouthed lout - you and Keith represent your cause well and between you make a well-matched pair.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Jim and McGrath, I have so far failed to find the evidence.
Why will you not share yours?
You must have evidence for your belief, or you would just be prejudiced bigots.
McGrath, at least you did put some up.
Such good evidence that you posted it twice!
Of course, it did turn out to be false.
I got no thanks for finding that out for you, and it seemed not to affect yoor belief at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:07 PM

Jim, I can't help when reading your inane posts, that if I was hearing you speak your lines, they would be, clean crisp, soft, with a lisp, and very effeminate...and extremely smarmy. Hey, ever hear a wounded soldier cry for his 'Mommy', and then held his bloody, shredded body as he died?..or watched half naked children stagger down the street, lost and dazed, while the naked part of their bodies were scorched, and they screamed in pain so hard they couldn't even catch their breath?..or mothers in shock holding one of their dead family members in their arms?
This happens more in reality, than you seem to wish to wrap your pumpkin-boffing brain around. Whatever it takes for the missiles to stop raining randomly down on towns and villages would be just OK...wouldn't you agree???...or are you so infatuated with your lame, stupid, self willed opinions of 'daisies' growing in the fields, and everybody is justified, with every fucking complaint, based on centuries old hatreds, that you can't see what this is about? This has NOTHING to do with the excuses propagated by extremists on either side, but rather has more to do with a smaller group of militant extremists playing on the emotions, while launching missiles and blowing up the shit out of everyone...while 'world opinion' restrains the Israelis from doing what is necessary to stop them!......
.....unless of course you are just anti Jewish, and try to hide it with your bullshit, soft spoken, eloquent rhetoric.
If you weren't so chicken shit, and really believed in your crap, go there and convince them.....they'd slit your throat before you finished your first sentence of you semi-literate diatribe.....just because you're a non Muslim Brit!..not for any other reason!
Some people are so idealistically brain locked, that they just NEVER get it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

"You forgot, "Muslim is the religion of peace!"
Might add Zionism to that one GFS
"I need evidence to form a conclusion."
Seek and ye shall find - the internet's full of it, so let your fingers do the walking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

Gaza and the West Bank:

As far as Palestine goes the only powers ever to have "invaded and "occupied" those territories and held their rightful owners under any form of subjugation since 1948 when the Mandated Territory of Palestine ceased to exist were Egypt and Jordan who invaded and occupied Gaza and the West Bank respectively and held them for nearly twenty years. The land was Palestinian, yet neither the Egyptians or the Jordanians let Palestinians settle there, instead they shut them up in camps on what was their own land.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 12:09 PM

The evidence is there to see, Keith, as it is for the other items in my list.

But that doesn't stop people refusing to accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM

McGrath of Harlow: "Cigarettes don't cause cancer.
Global warming is a lie.
The Holocaust never happened.
There were no moon landings.
The war on Iraq was legal.
Israel is not guilty of war crimes.

Bears do not shit in the woods."


You forgot, "Muslim is the religion of peace!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM

McGrath, Israel may have committed war crimes.
I need evidence to form a conclusion.
You seem not to.

Foolestroupe, this post and those that follow show that you assumed Israel was guilty because Lebanon said so.
That was gullible.
thread.cfm?threadid=129840&messages=1837&page=1&desc=yes#2957814
Anyone can check and see which of us is the lying fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:26 AM

Cigarettes don't cause cancer.
Global warming is a lie.
The Holocaust never happened.
There were no moon landings.
The war on Iraq was legal.
Israel is not guilty of war crimes.

Bears do not shit in the woods.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:13 AM

QUOTE
Foolestroupe, you have shown your gullibility to us all.

You believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false.
I believe nothing from either side until it is proved true.

Which attitude is the most bigoted and biased?
UNQUOTE

You are claiming this about me? You sir, are a lying Fool - I never said that I "believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false." You sir, believe everything said against the opponents of Israel until is is proved false.

And you sir, believe nothing against the IDF - because you deny that ANY of it is true, even when they later admit it themselves.

Pointing one finger at another means that all the others point back at you.

You are so malicious or stupid (I cannot tell the difference) that you twist my claim that both sides are equally to blame and equal troublemakers to claim that I am anti-semetic and "believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false".

I think IMO, you are exhibiting that same sort of behavior that my Schizophrenic manager at work displayed.

Since nothing will be achieved with you in the room - I petition that this thread be closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM

Foolstroop expressed his opinion, just as you expressed yours; he speaks for himself, you speak for yourself - please do not claim to be speaking for anybody else, especially as, whatever thread you happen to land on, you end up very much in the minority, so extreme to the right are your views.
"Jim, you might not have read...."
And please don't patronise me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM

Jim, you might not have read Foolestroupe's savaging of Israel over the Lebanon border incident (of which it was blameless) but I am quite sure everyone else did.
Everyone saw his gullibilty, except Jim.
Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM

"Foolestroupe, you have shown your gullibility to us all."
Please stop speaking for everybody - try expressing an opinion of your own instead of acting as spokesman for everybody else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:08 AM

Foolestroupe, you have shown your gullibility to us all.

You believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false.
I believe nothing from either side until it is proved true.

Which attitude is the most bigoted and biased?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 04:49 AM

"You guys launch another one, and you are telling us that it doesn't matter, an you think it's OK....so, in response, we will rain hell on ALL of you..including your mice and cockroaches."

That's what they have already done for decades mate - wake up and smell the roses...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

"When we know for an absolute fact that people are actively making up lies, is it not perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of all such claims without good evidence?
Let's keep open minds. "

Except when our own bigoted biases are challenged...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM

No country on Earth could just go on ignoring lethal attacks on its people.

Some recent cases just from our current debate.
Did Israelis throw dead and wounded into the sea from Mavi Marmara?
Did Israel provoke or instigate the recent clash on Lebanese border?Did Israelis kill Faramawi?

All lies, made up to discredit Israel, and all believed without question by gullible and prejudiced people on this forum.

When we know for an absolute fact that people are actively making up lies, is it not perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of all such claims without good evidence?
Let's keep open minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM

So, here's the deal, Israel issues an ultimatum....We do not like rockets being randomly tossed into our neighborhoods, and civilian population.You guys launch another one, and you are telling us that it doesn't matter, an you think it's OK....so, in response, we will rain hell on ALL of you..including your mice and cockroaches...THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!...so either stop, or don't go whining and bitching, and playing on the sympathies, of the rest of the world. You want something??..Negotiate!..and this time keep your word..or else...

After all, that's what I'd expect my government to do, if a neighboring country started doing in in my neighborhood....how about yours?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:40 AM

You are saying that no incontrovertible evidence exists.
Belief in it has to be a matter of faith and prejudice.
In the absence of evidence, I will just keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:29 AM

Thought so.

No evidence will be accepted as evidence of Israeli atrocities because the only people who would speak out against Israelis are all perforce anti-Semites and their evidence is not admissible.

There is no "evidence" of Israeli atrocities, because of the way the words are defined by the "friends" of Israel. Nothing that seems to inculcate Israel in atrocities counts as evidence. The logic is a circular as you could possibly wish for.

So I'm not going to play that game. You can stop saying "give us evidence of Israeli atrocities" because we both know nothing we turn up will be accepted by you as evidence of Israeli atrocities. So let's just not play the game.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:46 AM

Israel's side of the dispute on Goldstone, as told to BBC

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Regev said the panel was "born in sin" because "even the UN" considers the Human Rights Council which commissioned the report "to have a one-side anti-Israeli agenda".

The investigations Israel has done into its troops' behaviour in the Gaza Strip is 1,000 times more serious than this investigation

He also cast doubt on the impartiality of the four-judge panel, led by South African Richard Goldstone, based on comments one of its members had made before the inquiry.

Mr Regev charged that evidence collected in public hearings in the Gaza Strip, where he said witnesses were subject to intimidation from the militant Hamas movement, had the validity of a "show trial."

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:34 AM

Jim, I am truly sorry that you have personal problems distracting you at the moment.
When you said you agreed completely with M. of course anyone would assume you meant a recent post, not one from days ago.
Your anger with me was misplaced, but let it go.

Kevin, it is only your opinion that the death of Rachel Corrie was murder, based on your preconceptions and prejudice that you have shown against Israel in previous comments.
The opinion of one human rights worker on the legality of a military operation would also be thrown out of any court.
The Israelis did not kill Faramawi. That was a propagandist lie.
He was injured but it is not at all clear by whom. It may well have been a Palestinian internal dispute.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8601925.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:26 AM

The problem with this game is that whenever you provide evidence for a war crime, the Israel-butt-lickers will deny it happened, or say it was justified, or say the person was acting against orders. Giving you examples is just like feeding a troll.

In other words, I don't believe you're asking in good faith.

Why did Rachel Corrie lie down in front of a bulldozer? Was it just clearing some brush off a vacant lot? No, it was going to knock over homes. Homes that did not belong to the operator of the bulldozer or his employer. In punishment for something somebody else did. I already mentioned this. Your saying no examples have been provided is either disingenuous, or evidence of hasty reading unbecoming a disputant in a serious discussion.

The UN-commissioned Goldstone Report concluded that "Israel used disproportionate force, deliberately targeted civilians, used Palestinians as human shields, and destroyed civilian infrastructure during its incursion into Gaza to root out Palestinian rocket squads." (story here) But of course you will automatically dismiss that as being done by the UN which is the lackey of the Arabs, or some such. Prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:21 PM

Murder is denied - naturally. It's not unusual for murderers to do that.

The murders of Rachel Corrie and of Tom Hurndell etc were the direct result of Israeli soldiers acting in accordance with the way they had been instructed to act.

The only reason these aroused attention was because the victims were from the USA and the UK, which meant that it became politically necessary eventually to put the soldiers concerned on trial. In both cases strenuous efforts had been made by the IDF to cover up the true facts about the murders.

From a previous post: Troops opened fire at civilians killing 15-year-old Mohammad Al Faramawi...As protesters reached the buffer zone near the borders, soldiers stationed there opened fire at the protesters injuring 16 civilians. Among those injured was nine-year-old Ra'ed Abu Namous who was hit with a live round to his head, medical sources reported.

There will surely be no question of the soldiers responsible for that being tried - the victims may have been children, but they were Paelstinian children.

Have I got it right that what you are saying is that Israel is guilty as a state of war crimes?

I am. It beggars imagination that anyone would seek to deny that. From an article in the Israeli publication Al Haaretz : "A United Nations human rights investigator said on Thursday that Israel's offensive against Hamas in densely populated Gaza appeared to constitute a war crime of the "greatest magnitude." Just for starters.

Israel is of course not unique in being a state that commits war crimes. For example, most international lawyers appear to agree that the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was illegal. And there is no question that the firing of rockets at civilian targets is a war crime, just as shelling and airstrikes against civilian targets is a war crime. The fact that the number of civilians killed by Israel at all stages of this horrible conflict has been so much higher does not mean that the civilian deaths caused by Paletinian resistance is somehow justifiable. But to talk as if Israel were guiltless is a kind of blindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM

This thread was primarily about establishing whether we were unanimous on something.
We got bogged down on whether one person was in or out.
Less ambiguity in expressing his views would have saved pages of posts.
Moving on, McGrath says that I and others are failing to understand or respond to what you are saying.
Have I got it right that what you are saying is that Israel is guilty as a state of war crimes?
If so, how can we respond except to ask for evidence of that?
None has been provided after weeks of debate!

Mousethief, the tragic death of Rachel Corrie is not evidence of Israeli state terrorism.
If it was murder, the driver made the decision on the spot to do it.
Not the state.
Murder is denied, and a plausible explanation for an accident has been given.
Murder or accident, either way it can not be construed as state terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:31 PM

Apologies,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

We're a long way from what's happening. Getting personal at the evident inability of people we're arguing with to understand what we are saying and respond to that rather than to things we haven't said is a bit pointless. It just reflects frustration at being able to do anything to affect the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM

"He has made 6 posts on the subject since then!"
No, that's the one I remembered and responded to because I thought it relevant to what we are discussiog now
You really are the pits.
For someone who has consistently distorted and maliciously ignored posts by others to the extent that you have been requested not to do so, you are grasping at straws at my apparently having chosen the wrong posting to answer. Not that it any of your business, I was at Galway Hospital most of yesterday ad returned home latish after a somewhat stressful day. I did my best to catch up on the days postings, but obviously made an error.
Now what's your excuse?
As it happens, I don't have a great deal of a problem with Mousethief's statement. I have said what I believe about the taking of human life, innocent or otherwise - obscene.
And I agree completely that the barrage must stop - along with the slaughter and destruction by the Israelis - AND NOT BEFORE. The Palestinians would be put at the well proven not-so-tender mercies of a terrorist state that has had no compunction in the past to abuse them to the point od mass-murder.
You, on the other hand, haven't had the decency to even acknowledge the thuggish nature of the Israeli behaviour towards Arabs in their care, other than to describe it as being out of date.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:26 AM

Israeli war crimes: How about running over an innocent American girl with a bullozer?

And why was she blocking the bulldozer?

Because it was going to destroy homes in the neighborhood from which a rocket was fired.

Collectively punishing people is against the Geneva Conventions.

There are tons more, but I'm eating breakfast.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM

It seems conceivable that Al Haaretz, based in Israel, might have more reliable sources of information when it comes to the responsibility of Hamas in these rocket attacks than Keith.

Rockets fired at civilians are pretty evidently, in objective terms, a way of helping those elements in Israel who want continued conflict and fear peace. (No doubt the people who fire them think they are somehow helping the Palestinian cause.)

On the other hand non-violent resistance is a serious danger to such elements in Isreal- and it is treated as such. And it gets ignored by our media.

Here is an extract from this site, outlining a week of such activities earlier this year:

Let's begin our weekly report with the non-violent activities in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Palestinians all over the West Bank and Gaza marked this week land day with protests as well as planting olive trees. Troops attacked those protests killing one child. IMEMC's George Rishmawi has the details:

Palestinians marked Land Day in several areas in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with agricultural activities and protests against the wall and settlements that are being built on Palestinian lands.

During the land day protest in Gaza Strip, people gathered at the Israeli-built wall near the Rafah international airport in the southern part of the strip. Troops opened fire at civilians killing 15-year-old Mohammad Al Faramawi.

At the same time, another protest marking land day was organized in Khan Younis town, south east of Gaza Strip. As protesters reached the buffer zone near the borders, soldiers stationed there opened fire at the protesters injuring 16 civilians. Among those injured was nine-year-old Ra'ed Abu Namous who was hit with a live round to his head, medical sources reported.

In the West Bank Israeli soldiers attacked Land Day protests with tear gas and dozens were treated for the effects of tear gas inhalation. In Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, hundreds of school students and international supporters joined farmers and planted olive trees on lands threatened to be taken over by the Israeli military and settlers. Similar actions were organized in Nablus and Salfeet, northern West Bank, where Parliament Members and international supporters joined the farmers and planted trees in their lands.

Palestinians mark the Land Day after events dating back to March, 30th 1976. Clashes erupted near the Palestinian town of Sakhneen, in response to the Israeli government's plans to expropriate thousands of Palestinian-owned acres of land. A general strike and protests were organized in Arab towns from the Galilee to the Negev, met with severe violence from the Israeli police killing six Palestinians and wounding hundreds.

Also this week, Israeli police and troops detained 10 people during a protest at the Wall-gate separating the southern West Bank city of Bethlehem and Jerusalem. The protest took place on Sunday as local Christians marked Palm Sunday. Protesters demanded free access to Jerusalem and the freedom of worship in the holy sites there. Israel denies Palestinians free access to Jerusalem since 1991. Israeli authorities allow few thousands only with special permits to enter Jerusalem that are rarely granted.

On Wednesday the Israeli military court of Ofer ordered the release of all ten Palestinians who were detained on Sunday on bail. All ten have to appear in front of a military court on April 18th.

Also in the West Bank, on Friday anti wall protests were organized in the villages of Bil'in and N'ilin central West Bank as well as Deir Istiya, in the north and Al Ma'ssara village, near Bethlehem in the south. Troops used tear gas to suppress those protests. Three journalists were injured and one international supporter was detained by the Israeli military in Al Ma'ssara village.