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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:05 AM "Logic and Reason are the deadly Enemies of Faith" - from the writings of Martin Luther.... :-O "Firing a weapon into a civilian area with no military action in the offing" The point has been made before that, logically, all Israeli citizens undergo military training, and then are part of the Militia Reserve, thus 'legitimate', though the 'legality' is doubted by some, 'targets'. Of course logically, there are their wives and children, just as the 'naughty terrorists' on the other side ALSO logically have wives and children.... "with no military action in the offing" Oh shit, isn't it wonderful how words can be made to mean anything... tanks and planes that can pop up rapidly - how the bloody hell would ANYBODY KNOW that there IS NO "military action in the offing" - after all it HAS happened before, AND the MOST important military tactic is 'surprise'..... :-P That's the trouble when you have 'faith' on one hand, and 'logic & reason' on the other.... endless 'roundy roundy' arguments... sigh.... and NEITHER side will give way cause their OWN magic invisible sky fairy told them that ONLY THEY are in the right... sigh ... Well at least the blatant defamatory actions of psychotically maliciously twisting people's words to mean just only what the hearer wants has (mostly) died down till the next time somebody else has to metaphorically 'take up a shotgun'.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:12 AM "Which leads me to my overall observation that until the Palestinians can convince Israel they want peace, I don't see an end to the conflict" Which leads me to my overall observation that until the Israelis can convince the Palestinians that they do not want to take away all their land, I don't see an end to the conflict ... Do you need me to logically interpret/convert the rest of that paragraph for you all too? Or are you all possessed with a sufficient level of literacy to do it yourself? This is what the problem with bigoted one sided faith does - it cannot see that the other side sees the exact reverse as also true.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:26 AM "As an American looking at the situation from outside, I personally am not convinced the Palestinians want peace. " The normal one sided response. I'm not convinced that anyone on either side, and most especially their financial and military supporters around the globe, want 'peace', other than that of the grave0. Neither side has yet digested the experience of a sufficient 'river of blood' to outweigh the endless emotive bigoted rantings stirring up each side to 'even things up' - in Ireland they at least reached that point a while ago.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:20 AM Israel wasn't interested in peace in March, 2010: It's not the first time that Israel has stiffed Barack Obama over his attempts to kick-start Middle East peace negotiations. But the sudden, highly inflammatory announcement of plans to build an additional 1,600 homes in occupied East Jerusalem, in the midst of a visit to Israel of US vice-president Joe Biden, was certainly the most brutally contemptuous rebuff so far to American peacemaking. (Guardian) Israel wasn't interested in peace in July, 2010: The Israeli authorities have used bulldozers to demolish three buildings in occupied East Jerusalem. Israeli officials said the action was taken to enforce court orders against - what they called - illegal and unpopulated structures. But residents say two of the buildings were inhabited by Palestinian families, while the third was a warehouse. The demolitions came a day after Israeli authorities approved the construction of 32 new homes in a Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem. (BBC) What about that settlement freeze that Israel imposed on itself? Surely that shows Israel's good faith? Israeli watchdog group Peace Now has released Monday a report on the reality of the moratorium on the ground over the past months. Over 600 settlement projects have begun, with nearly 500 of those housing projects in direct violation of the freeze, according to Peace Now's assessment. (PalestineNote) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:53 AM "I personally am not convinced the Palestinians want peace." I am personally convinced of who does NOT want peace. Don't know how far the current state of affairs in Israeli has been reported elsewhere, but there is apparently a huge power struggle going on over who should be appointed as the new Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army, complete with smear tactics and dirty-tricks campaign. It has been stated by a former C.o.S. that one of the deciding factors of who should be appointed is WHETHER IRAN SHOULD BE ATTACKED IN ORDER TO PREVENT IT FROM OBTAINING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. I wonder do I want an terrorist state capable of horrendous and well-proven war crimes acting as self-appointed peace keeper in one of the most unstable parts of our planet - where's my Vera Lynn records!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:15 AM No, no no,..I think you,ve gotten it confused. Your understanding of looking at International Politics, cannot be misunderstood by looking at your Intestinal Polyps. There is a big difference....though the latter may have given you greater pleasure! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM GfS Your posting makes as much sense as trusting Israel - with anything. It appears that your happy with a group of religious nutters acting as neuclear plocemen - then again, why wouldn't you, given your previous postings Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM If peace were to break out with all it's Arab neighbors, Israel would probably have a lot of internal strife. So, could Arab hostility towards Israel be the glue that holds it firmly together, serving as a threat to unify the various factions? If true, I suspect there is plenty of fodder to retain a strong Israel for awhile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM QUOTE If peace were to break out with all it's Arab neighbors, Israel would probably have a lot of internal strife. So, could Arab hostility towards Israel be the glue that holds it firmly together, serving as a threat to unify the various factions? If true, I suspect there is plenty of fodder to retain a strong Israel for awhile. UNQUOTE 2 points - your 2nd one first - actually what you mean is that in order to retain 'that strong country' we need to have it rampaging around murdering whoever it wants to suppress its own internal civil conflicts? "could Arab hostility towards Israel be the glue that holds it firmly together, serving as a threat to unify the various factions?" It's happened before - wanna pick an African or South American, or European state - oh, and just how far in history? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM One question for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see." Another question for you: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS" "OCCUPIED EAST JERUSALEM" Go and take a look at the 1923 map of Palestine and Trans-Jordan - look where Jerusalem is (HINT: You will find it in Palestine, ie. not in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan). The ONLY country that has EVER ILLEGALY OCCUPIED Jerusalem has been Jordan. It did so from 1948 to 1967, up until then there was never any mention of East and West Jerusalem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:20 AM "actually what you mean is that in order to retain 'that strong country' we need to have it rampaging around murdering whoever it wants to suppress its own internal civil conflicts That is your interpretation of my post, not mine. I try to avoid demonizing peoples of any nation....as, personally, I see no point of even getting into those types of discussions (that often lead to discourse). However, discussing governments, who are actually in control, are a different matter to me. My point is, government interests from all fronts in the conflict, and their organizational agenda (short and longer term), are likely what is driving the conflict, and not necessarily the current plight of the civilians....as some tend to innocently speculate is the driving force, as seen from their vantage point. Conflicts, and a fear of other nations can and does put other divisive internal issues on the back burner... history books can supply examples. What drives government is keeping in power and satisfying the vested interests (long, and shorter term) that control them. The Hammas government (and other factions) have their agenda and interests to satisfy. So does Israel, neighboouring countries and other nations involved. We may see the sufforing of civilians as a paramount issue, (which may not be the major concern by other governments), fueling the conflict... since they are not focusing on peace. So, (on the thread topic) regardless of whether it is intentionally done or not, I put the suggestion forward that firing rockets into Israel, (ignoring if they are effective in killing citizens or not), strengthens the Israeli government among the citizenry ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM firing rockets into Israel, (ignoring if they are effective in killing citizens or not), strengthens the Israeli government among the citizenry ? Of course it does. And Israel responds in a way that ensures that rockets will continue to be fired, keeping it that way. Not too many rockets, just enough... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM The intent of Israel's response is to stop the rockets being fired at their citizens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:28 PM Just to speculate....my mind was wandering and, (outside the negativity of civilian suffering) I list a few possible reasons why maintaining the Israel-Hamas conflict could actually be viewed as a good thing by some governments, in and outside the Arab World. The conflict takes attention away from internal problems of that country (lack of reform by interest groups, economic issues, religion etc) of that particular country. (Many nations in the Region, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran). Keeps international militant attention focused on this region and the plight of the citizens impacted. (Many nations) Limits other potential Palestinian land claims in neighboring countries (for example, Jordan). An opportunity to increase power, and prestige within the region and within the Muslim worked. (Iran, Syria, Turkey). Supportsd interests by some for a Muslim governments throughout the region. An economic opportunity from arm sales and to maintain a non-Arab military superiority in the region, for a counterbalance. (EU, Russia, China, USA) Keeping Israel's military strong, to keep evolving regional powers in check, (Western countries) Provides espionage opportunities. (USA) Limits Palestinian refuge problems, and export of the conflict into neighboring countries (remember Lebanon). Reaction to internal pressures from interest groups to get involved (Arab countries, USA) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:31 PM "The intent of Israel's response is to stop the rockets being fired at their citizens". I suspect so. But, considering the limited military impact, why does Hammas allow them to continued to be fired, for what benefit, and who benefits? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM No it isn't - open aggression towards the Palestinians has been going on for at least thirty years - including two major massacres. "OCCUPIED EAST JERUSALEM" Go and take a look at the 1923 map of Palestine and Trans-Jordan" Another seeker of the Promised Land and an all-out victory for Israeli aggression - and it's the Palestinians who don't want peace - yeah, right!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM "But, considering the limited military impact, why does Hammas allow them to continued to be fired, for what benefit, and who benefits?" The benefit is the widespread opprobrium that befalls Israel when it responds. As demonstrated on Mudcat there is no shortage of those who avail themselves of every opportunity to heap hate on to them. As shown in Richard Landes' videos, Hamas are quite skilled at orchestrating atrocities for which there is no shortage of dupes ready to buy into. This confers on them a folk hero status among thir neighbours - you know the "standing up to the little satan" routine. It also increases the financial aid they receive from their proxy master, Iran. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:25 PM Jim, Will you please tell me why Israel should allow Arabs access to Jerusalem at all? Isn't it only fair that they treat Arabs as Jews were treated when the Arabs had control of Jerusalem, from 1948 to 1967? The chances that Israel will give up ANY of Jerusalem is less than you ever admitting that the Palestinians are guilty of war crimes, and that Israel has the right to exist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:51 PM bobad, To be clear, are you suggesting that Hamas: directly or indirectly, puts their citizens at risk, and subjects them to diplorable conditions, by supporting or initiating actions (orchestrating atrocities) against Israel, to initiate a retalitory response to get support and finnaces from supporters and the international community? Did I capture it right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:03 PM It's pretty obvious, don't you think, Ed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM "Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us" .... Golda Meir biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM To tell you the truth, that thought once entered my mind. But, then I reasoned alot of folks seem to support, stand up for, like and even promote Hamas. I thought that it was not likely that these normally reasoned folks would be duped into doing that. I also considered it unlikely because, what dastardly government would do that kind of thing to its own people, let alone the kids and women of a neighbour. I know, there are those suicide bomber folks....but they don't do things to kill their own. And, there have been some evil governments in history. But, most of those were led by some ego-wacko fellows. With this, I am going to have to reflect and start to give it some deeper thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM One question for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see." Another question for you: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS" 1. If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude. 2. Because their homes, which were stolen from them in 1952 (if I remember right - maybe 1953 - the absentee land grab law) are in Israel. Those were easy. Any more? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: robomatic Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM Check out "The Battle of Algiers". Relevant to the behavior of Hamas, Hezbollah, The Talibaners, and Al Qaeda. These folks know what they're doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM "Isn't it only fair that they treat Arabs as Jews were treated when the Arabs had control of Jerusalem, from 1948 to 1967?" Is that the way your mind works? Maybe we should have allowed the Jewish Concentration Camp survivors to kick the shit out of every German they laid hands on after the war - that would have evened things up a bit. We are now in 2010 with a problem bequethed by history, shitty politicians and strutting militarist who are quite likely to start a confligration in the Middle East by attacking a Muslim country, and all you can suggest is taking it out on the ordinary Palestinian people for something that happened - when was it you said - 1948 to '67, when many of them wouldn't have been born, never mind responsible for what happened then? You've obviously given this a lot of thought - maybe you should apply for the job as Israeli Army Chief of Staff - such imagination really deserves the glittering prizes. You people really are sickos. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM "Isn't it only fair that they treat Arabs as Jews were treated when the Arabs had control of Jerusalem, from 1948 to 1967?" "Maybe we should have allowed the Jewish Concentration Camp survivors to kick the shit out of every German they laid hands on after the war - that would have evened things up a bit." Not at all, Mr. Carroll. But this is why Jerusalem must be part of Israel in a Two State Solution. Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites as they were post-1948. Israel has proved itself to be ecumenical in the handling of Jerusalem since 1967. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM "That is your interpretation of my post, not mine." And this is of course the whole problem at base of many differing opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM "And this is of course the whole problem at base of many differing opinions". I see few "problems" with "differing opinions" and a diversity of views. In fact, I see these adding to a respectful discussion and to knowledge. That is, if one is seeking such, and is open to consider other interpretations and opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:30 PM "Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites as they were post-1948. Israel has proved itself to be ecumenical in the handling of Jerusalem since 1967. " And so we scurrying back behind a 2000 year old myth to excuse modern day atrocities - incuding 2 major massacres which none of you have the balls even to acknowledge, never mind explain - god protect us all from religious nuts! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:35 PM "...god protect us all from religious nuts!" If that's all you got, you got nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:47 PM Israel has proved itself to be ecumenical in the handling of Jerusalem since 1967. For values of "ecuemenical" meaning "bulldozing Palestinian homes to make room for parks for tourists" (among other things). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM And I see you didn't respond, just as you and your heroes haven't responded to the atrocities committed presumably in yours or whoever's god's name. The religion you are espousing doesn't even seem to cover common decency man to man and is quite happy to sanction the slaughter of millions in its name - and I have nothing? That may be your twisted outlook on human life, it sure ain't mine, and I'll happily settle for nothing as an alternative. Sorry, don't call me - I'll call you. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:51 PM If they wanted peace, than firing missiles is the way to achieve it??? Jim, you have twisted logic beyond anything sane, just to accommodate your biases....and yet you don't have the balls to say that you support the Hamas missiles being fired on the Israeli citizenry. To be consistent with that, you must be a closet supporter of the lovely, oppressed, peace loving, religious 'holy folks', taking their missionary message of love and peace, to the radical aggressor passengers on Lockerbie Pan Am Flight 103. Nor the justifiable 'mercy killing' of those savage infidel commuters at the train station in Spain...you know, those 'aggressors' in Spain! ...and those damn, oppressing Israeli Olympic athletes, in 1972..look at all their atrocities, upon the poor under trodden Palestinians! It now becomes pretty obvious, that THOUGH these people, your prejudicial hostilities are acted out and carried through. ....Though you probably don't have the balls to admit that either.. Your way of looking at things is ass-backwards and your hostilities are over generalized. Just like you'd rather blame the WHOLE of the Catholic Church, for cleric abuse, rather than the individual homosexual priests who did it!! YOU'VE GOT ISSUES!....and of course, you'll dismiss them, just because it was 'me' that is pointing them out to you...but, it should be pretty obvious to ANY one reading YOUR posts, of misplaced, broad-brush painting of hatred, upon Catholics and Jews...instead of the actual individual perpetrators of stupid, and hostile acts, upon the true victims!..... ...then you mask it with this 'quasi-eloquent' sophistry....but you CANNOT hide, well enough, this anti-social rage laying in you. It's more obvious than you'd like to think!...which by itself, DELUSION! When people are attacked, a self defensive response should, would and could have, be expected....JUST LIKE YOU FEEL NOW!!!...except, I am talking about innocent women, children and non=violent, non-aggressive citizens, who have a right to live in peace...except in your mind! Most Sincerely, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM "than the individual homosexual priests who did it!!" Homophobic as well as racist - I have just remembered our earlier confrontations when you went on a 'queer-bashing spree'. Most psychologists would describe your condition as indicative of latent homosexuality, so if it persists worrying you I would have it checked out if I were you. I have stated my attitude as clearly as I can regarding the bombardment - there is no simple yes-or-no answer but I have given it as best I can; which is more than you or any of your heroic friends have even attempted as regard Israeli atrocities. The rest of your posting is somewhat foaming-at-the mouth rant - get help. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM "god protect us all from religious nuts!" I take it you are referring to the "religious nuts" who govern Gaza. The "religious nuts" in Israel, while they do have some influence on the government due to the coalition situation there, at least are not in a position to lead their citizenry into suicidal attacks upon their neighbours. The influence they have is the price of democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM "You people really are sickos." Jim Carroll If by "you people" you mean those who haven't joined you in demonizing Israel, those who believe that Israel is a legitimate country and as such has the right to defend itself from being attacked by it's neighbours, those who empathize with the innocent citizens of Gaza who are suffering because of the actions of Hamas and those who are not gullible enough to accept the words of Hamas as gospel and reject those of Israel as being biased - well, count me in! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM "If by "you people" you mean those who haven't joined you in demonizing Israel," No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME. I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them Spineless bastards all. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM Jim: "No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME. I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them Spineless bastards all." how about Spanish train commuters?/...Do they meet your criteria? Israeli athletes?...Patrons of Pa Am?..You left these savage, religious nuts out of your mix........and these are only for starters!!!..There are more. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:24 PM Jim Carroll: "Jim: "No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME." Surely you can't mean the rest of Muslims, worldwide, can you?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:38 PM "If they wanted peace, than firing missiles is the way to achieve it???" Things have now reached the stage where all active participants seem to only want the Peace of The Grave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM Things have now reached the stage where all active participants seem to only want the Peace of The Grave. Sad but appears to be true. I wonder if the people who rail against the Gazans for voting in Hamas also rail at the Israelis for voting in Likud? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:19 AM Mousethief you have not answered my questions at all: Question 1: for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see." Answer 1: If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude. Well no it is not actually Dude, if you live in a very small country with an increasing population, there is no land that can be allowed to go to waste. The USA, Canada and Australia do not have such problems other countries have. To put a folk music twist to it, just such a law exists in the UK, look into the Seumas Mor song entitled "The Seven Men of Knoydart". Billions upon billions of every currency in the world have been thrown in aid at the "Palestinians" (Arabs) and they have done absolutely nothing with that at all, not one bloody cent of it has been spent benefiting "the people", they have wasted and squandered the lot. Question 2: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS" Answer 2: Because their homes, which were stolen from them in 1952 (if I remember right - maybe 1953 - the absentee land grab law) are in Israel. Pity that the camps were set up for the Palestinian Arabs, on Palestinian land by Egyptians and Jordanians in 1949. So events of 1952 or 1953 have no relevance. At the same time round about 820,000 Jews who had been dispossessed and deported from Arab countries all over the world were dumped on Israel. The Israeli's did not shut those people up in camps to make political pawns out of them, they welcomed them in and absorbed them into the fabric of their communities. While people chatter on about Palestinian Arab right of return, the right of return or compensation for these 820,000 Jews is conveniently ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:03 AM So their land was stolen in 1948, presumably during "Operation Clean Sweep" (an ethnic cleansing by Israeli forces). My bad. I answered your questions, you just don't like my answers. I'm sorry, but saying that because no Palestinians were using that land at the time, it's okay for Israel to steal it, is just messed up. So any crowded country can steal adjacent land from a neighbouring country if it's not being used? (Although not all the settlements and outposts are on adjoining land, it should be said.) I really doubt there's any such provision in international law. Show me I'm wrong and I'll admit it. And of course occupied Palestinian homes were demolished last month by Israel. So your "they're not using it" thing doesn't even cover all the cases I mentioned. Israel clearly is not interested in peace. Your desire to exonerate Israel of any wrongdoing is typical of your allies on this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:11 AM AND.....Jim Carroll: "I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them..." My, isn't that a 'Jimmy Reversal' of what you were fuming about in the thread about the Catholic Church, and the clergy, molesting children?? What is this?? Selective hatred, at the appropriately 'politically correct time'???......OR, are you just as good as the last person you talked to??? At least the Pope publicly forgave the Muslim who shot him,attempting to assassinate him....instead of lobbing Vatican missiles into his homeland..into domestic neighborhoods! As much as I don't agree with all of the tenets of Catholicism, that one act of forgiveness, kicked the assassin's ass, and ALL he stands for...for all those who 'got it'. Come on, now keep up! With Love in my heart...even for you, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 AM "Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites" And with that statement John puts this all in a nutshell - a fundamentailsm that allows thousands of refugees to be herded into camps and slaughtered, and allows the apologists for the people who did it to remain silent in their support for such bestiality. No - I don't support any such act by ANY religion, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, ANY RELIGION. For me, the situation in Gaza is about the inhuman treatment of the ordinary people of that City who are bombed, slaughtered made homeless, have their schools and hospitals destroyed and their livelihoods, even the basic necessities of day-to-day living taken away, while the rest of the world stands by murmuring small sounds of regret and little else, (except to assist their persecutors to obtain Nuclear weapons so that they can continue to 'fight the good fight' in tht troubled part of the world) because it is not in their political and economic interest to do so. And all so their persecutors can have access to their "Holy sites" - yet another holy war; thank you for summing it up so succinctly John. My hatred of violence does not extend as far as asking these persecuted people to lay down their arms, their only form of defence, as paltry as it is, in the face of what is being thrown at them; the recent history of this conflict has provided enough examples of what they might expect should they surrender to such an vicious enemy. I wonder if, should the world be plunged into a shooting war with Iran, as seems possible, our apologists will continue to sing the praises of the aggressors as loudly as they do here - I suppose they will. Jim Carroll PS GfS - if you can find any contradicition in my attitude here and my stance on clerical child abuse, please feel free to point it out - I await your offering with much interest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:17 AM Jim....Good post, OK?...I believe we can reason together...seriously. What I'd like to do, is check some homework, and give you some historical data, so I don't risk being inaccurate with the fine points, in regards to this 'God awful' mess of hate and fear, over there, which is spreading all over this planet. Please, keep in mind, that what I'd like to share with you, is meant from heart to heart..because ALL hate, and fear and forms of violent aggression, are fed and fueled by the collective conscience of ALL of us. To be truly against it, and combat the real enemy, we must be clear of that same negative energy!...take this to heart, and anyone else out there in cyber-land, who may be reading this: THE ENERGY YOU PUT INTO A SYSTEM, TENDS TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM!!!...and this I promise you, being as I assume you are a musician, that if you grab what I'm going to try to turn you on to, your music, sensitivity, and the ability to communicate PEACE, and LOVE, through your music, and have people identify that, in themselves, because of what your music is reaching in them, your music and abilities, will blow you away!!!!!..and also those who hear it!!...Promise!..Fair enough?..I'll get back to you, when I check my stuff. Until then, relax, take it easy. Peace(?), GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:43 AM I couldn't resist this exchange. "Mousethief you have not answered my questions at all: Question 1: for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see." Answer 1: If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude. Well no it is not actually Dude, if you live in a very small country with an increasing population, there is no land that can be allowed to go to waste." Let me see if I've got this right ... Israel is a small country and doesn't have much living room. Palestinians aren't using their land in a way that Teribus feels justifies their possession of it. Therefore Israelis have the right to annex any land that they feel they would make better use of than the palestinians are. Annexing neighbouring territory because space is limited ... ... there's a word for that ... Lebensraum. Then I saw this amusing tit-bit from GfS: "Jim....Good post, OK?...I believe we can reason together...seriously." The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently. This is very unlikely to happen in our lifetime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM ""Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites"" Sigh - but those holy sites also belong to others, so nobody has any right to ban anybody else... Do you know WHO looks after and guards/protects the most holy sites (for ALL the several religions who hold the sites in mutual respect) in Jerusalem - hint - it was NOT Jews - unless they have run off those who did the job for ages.... and THEY didn't ban anybody.... Sigh - people's lack of knowledge about much of the rubbish they spout about this subject is amazing.... I learned about it easily enough, and I haven't even BEEN there ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM 400 Brain-LOX: "The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently." Huhh?? GfS |
