BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM

Well said GfS.

And of course makes sense

but

But it isn't going to fly with the gang in here.

I just know what the replies are going to be.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM

number 6: "But it isn't going to fly with the gang in here.
I just know what the replies are going to be."

Never underestimate the power, of stupid people in large crowds!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:07 PM

Lox where do I attribute mousethiefs quoyes to you? I was merely addressing them in general. What was interesting to take note of is that you appear to think it normal and rational for people to wander around killing one another but that somebody calling them idiots for doing so is an idiot themself. Don't you find that interesting Lox?

As to this little passage of yours (there see I have given you due attribution happy?)

Me - "So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza."

You - "Yep that's right its called proportional response."

In so saying, you are effectively arguing that all civilians in a military conflict, men women and children, are legitimate targets.

This is also consistent with you being a fucking idiot.

I was not aware that criminals do engage in military conflicts. Your are a bit of a fucking idiot yourself chum.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:22 PM

Palestinians fire rockets indiscriminately from Gaza into Israel then the IDF should conduct area artillery barrages in return for say an hour. They should keen doing that, shifting target each time until the Gazans have had enough and stop firing rockets or handed over those responsible for firing the rockets.

Civilian casualties? The Israelis should state quite clearly that they will give as much consideration to civilian casualties as Hamas do. Everybody should be totally fed up with both sides in this pantomime, let them get on with it, let them slaughter one another wholesale until it is settled, they obviously do not have the wit or the desire to do anything other than what they have been doing for the last 60 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:23 PM

"Of course they want Gaza.
Lebanon will be next. "


More lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:25 PM

"Not being an expert on Jewish religious philosophy, I can't say whether THEY believe THAT,"


THEY don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

This link is somewhat off topic for this thread ... but what the hell this thread has swayed off topic regardless.

Good to see there is some sanity left in this world

I thought I would open a new thread for this ... but, it would probably end up as an Israeli bashing thread ... since we already have 2 Israeli bashing threads going on here in the Madcat I stuck it in here.

My intention with this is to exhibit that peace, rationality and tolerance is still with us in this world today. Maybe, just maybe this can catch on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:35 PM

"I was thinking of them being able to have their own nation, control their own borders, trade freely with the rest of the world, stuff like that. "

You mean the 77% of Mandate Palestine given to them in 1923 as an Arab Homeland, where Jews were forbidden from settling?





OH, YOU mean that they should have ALL of Mandate Palestine, and the treaty that established it as a Jewish Homeland should be ignored?


Then please admit that Syria, Lebenon, Iran, Jordan, AND Israel should be dismantled, or admit that you are bigotted against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:40 PM

Keith,
You and others have argued all along that the only reason that Israel fired into occupied areas is that this is where Hamas fired their rockets from.
Therefore Israel deliberately directed their fire into areas where they KNEW civilians would be = deliberately endangering the life of civilians in order to target Hamas fighters they claimed were there.
Even if Hamas had wanted to, they could not have deliberately targeted Israeli civilians as the weapon launchers and the circumstances in which they were being used were not capable of being aimed accurately. This makes the Israelis the only people to deliberately target civilians. There has been no evidence apart from Israeli claims that Hamas set up their rocket launchers in civilan area, so we have to take the word of people who have lied on a regular basis for it. It is just as likely that the claim has been invented to terrorise and drive out civilians in order to seize there land and property.
This is beside the point anyway - the Israelis deleberately targeted civilian area = war crimes against civilians.
The Israelis are the only fighters to have deliberately taken hostages and use them as human shields (happy to dig out the information if you are the slightest bit interested) = war crimes against civlians.
In 1982 the Israelis provided arms and transport to Lebanese Christian Phalangists and gave them access to the Shatila and Sabra refugee camps, enabling them to slaughter somewhere between 800 and 3,500 inmates.

"An hour later, 1,500 militiamen assembled at Beirut International Airport, then occupied by Israel. Under the command of Elie Hobeika, they began moving towards the camps in IDF supplied Jeeps, following Israeli guidance on how to enter the camps. The forces were mostly Phalangist, though there were some men from Saad Haddad's "Free Lebanon forces". According to Ariel Sharon, the Phalangists were given "harsh and clear" warnings about harming civilians.
The first unit of 150 Phalangists entered the camps at 6:00 p.m. A battle ensued that at times Palestinians claim involved lining up Palestinians for execution. During the night the Israeli forces fired illuminating flares over the camps. According to a Dutch nurse, the camp was as bright as "a sports stadium during a football game".
At 11:00 p.m. a report was sent to the IDF headquarters in East Beirut, reporting the killings of 300 people, including civilians. The report was forwarded to headquarters in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, where it was seen by more than 20 senior Israeli officers.
Further reports of these killings followed through the night. Some of these reports were forwarded to the Israeli government in Jerusalem and were seen by a number of Israeli senior officials.
For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of Sabra and Shatila, while Israeli troops guarded the exits and allegedly continued to fire flares at night."

Once again = war crimes against civilians, this time on a massive scale.
These are the people you are giving your support to and these are the people you are suggesting that the Palestinians should reliquish their arms and surrender to,
So far all you have said about the massacre is that "the Israelis should have stopped it"
I have never at any time supported the deliberate killing of civilains, but unless you condem all the above as war crimes, you have.
I await your response with some interest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:58 PM

On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade of the Jordanian Army) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.[12][13] However the Jordanians could not devote all their attention to the Palestinians. The 3rd Armoured Division of the Iraqi Army had remained in Jordan after the 1967 war. The Iraqi regime sympathised with the Palestinians, and it was unclear whether the division would intervene on the part of the Palestinians. Thus the 99th Brigade of the Jordanian 3rd Armoured Division had to be retained to watch the Iraqi division.[14]

Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000.[15][16]

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:58 PM

Frantic thread creeping to avoid Lox's simple question Jim.
The massacres, whose details are still disputed, were nearly thirty years ago.
I have no idea what the hostage thing is about.

"There has been no evidence apart from Israeli claims that Hamas set up their rocket launchers in civilan area, "

Just go to google images and put in "rocket launch gaza city"

"Even if Hamas had wanted to, they could not have deliberately targeted Israeli civilians as the weapon launchers and the circumstances in which they were being used were not capable of being aimed accurately. "
They are accurate enough to aim at towns.
The towns are not military targets.
By replacing explosive with shrapnel they are intended tp kill and maim, not destroy structures.
It is ridiculous to say that civilians are not deliberately targeted.
They are, and you are the only person in the world, never mind this thread, I have ever heard make that ridiculous claim.

You have supported Hamas rocketing, so you have supported the deliberate targeting of civilians.

I do not support anyone who does that.

So we have Jim, the self proclaimed atheist, liberal, pacifist supporting war crimes committed by a right wing fundamentalist religious group.
You are a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:59 PM

Estimates of the number of the people killed in the ten days of Black September range from three thousand to more than five thousand, although exact numbers are unknown. The Palestinian death toll in 11 days of fighting was estimated by Jordan at 3,400, while Palestinian sources often cite the number 10,000, mainly civilians, killed. Arafat at some point claimed that 20,000 had been killed.[20] The Western reporters were concentrated at the Intercontinental Hotel, away from the action.[citation needed] Nasser's state-controlled Voice of the Arabs from Cairo reported genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM

To all the stupids:

Go over there and convince them!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM

Teribus - the fact that you see those involved knowingly in killing civilians as anything other than criminals betrays much about you that you are unaware of and will probably never be able to learn.


Sorry to disappoint you but you are going to have to seek a 'chum' elsewhere, the cap I have made for you fits only too well.


Keith, you say the IDF only acts in self defence.

The IDF also shoots at farmers, fishermen and children.

By your logic, that means that they do so in self defence.

As you support their right to do so, you therefore support their right to shoot farmers fishermen and children.


Its all derived from your argument so if its a slur, you only have yourself to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM

"They are accurate enough to aim at towns."
Then Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were massive war crimes.
No you are supporting war crimes and the people who conntinue them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:04 PM

Jim writes: "This makes the Israelis the only people to deliberately target civilians."

How can it be that a person sensible and sensitive, such as I'm sure Jim Carroll is, can write such things? How can you, Jim, dedicate so much time to this very important question, yet ignoring even the most basic facts about it? You get mad when someone brings up the charge of anti-semitism, but this non-stop forgery and hatred against Israel is not normal, give it a name. It goes beyond criticism, you depict Israel as absolute evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

"You get mad when someone brings up the charge of anti-semitism,"
Roberto.
Keith and others - maybe even yourself, have claimed that the reason the Israelis have targeted Palestinian civilians is that Hamas have fired rockets from occupied areas and they have returned fire. I have never heard of a weapon that can kill only soldiers and not civilians, have you? You really can't have it both ways. The Israelis have fired on civilians deliberately.
And before you scurry behind your anti-Semitism accusation, I would remind you that Arabs are Semites and therefore, following your logic, any criticism of them might be construed as anti-Semitism were one of such a low frame of mind to make such an accusation.
Keith;
I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have.
I have said that the rockets are randomly aimed and are the only defence to persistent Israeli attacks with heavy weapons.
You appear to be working on the basis that if a lie is repeated often enough, somebody might just believe it. So far you seem to have no takers, but I'm sure Terribus is there to bring up the rear if needed.
"They are accurate enough to aim at towns."
Israel has not only bombarded, cluster bombed and dropped chemical weapons, it has rolled in with tanks and heavy weeapons, bombarded occullied schools and hospitals ad destroyed homes.
As I said earlier - compare the casualty figures to see who has targeted civilians the most efficiantly.
"The massacres, whose details are still disputed, were nearly thirty years ago."
There is only dispute on the figures killed - none whatever on the part played by the Israelis, and there is no moratorium on mass murder - same people, same conflict, time is not an excuse.
Simon Wiesenthal's oreganisation pursued Nazi war criminal for over half a century - should he have let them go because of the time lapse? If Mengele were found alive tomorrow he would be trid as a war criminal and if found guilty, sentenced and punished - quite rightly.
"I have no idea what the hostage thing is about."
Then read and learn, though it does have rather a lot of words so you might have a bit of difficulty.
Jim Carroll

The Al Mezan Center for Human Rights is a Gaza-based Palestinian NGO mandated "to promote, protect and prevent violations of human rights in general, and economic, social and cultural rights in particular, to provide effective aid to those victims of such violations, and to enhance the quality of life of the community in (Gaza's) marginalized sectors."
It monitors and documents violations, provides legal aid and advocacy, and helps Gazans on "fundamental issues such as basic human rights, democracy, and international humanitarian" matters. It also produces reports and publications on its work.
In April, it published a seven-case study update of its July 2008 report titled: "Hiding Behind Civilians - The Continued Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields by the Israeli Occupation Forces." This article reviews both reports to highlight what international law unequivocally prohibits. Nonetheless, it's customary IDF practice even though Israel's Supreme Court banned it on October 6, 2005.
One Palestinian woman described her experience:
"They handcuffed and blindfolded me. Then, they forced us to move out of the room, pushing me with their hands and guns to move although I was blindfolded and pregnant. I heard them pushing others to hurry up as well. I got exhausted and fell down many times. I told them that I was four months pregnant and couldn't continue but a soldier threatened to shoot me."
Other witness testimonies related similar stories, at times with tragic consequences for its victims. Israel is a party to various human rights laws and conventions. As a result, it's obligated to respect and protect the rights of people it controls.
Under Article 3 of the UN General Assembly's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR): "everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."
Under Article 5: "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
Under Article 9: "no one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile."
The General Assembly's 1977 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) affirms the same rights. Under Article 17: "no one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence."
Both international humanitarian law (IHL) and international human rights law (IHRL) protect life, well-being and dignity. ILH deals with armed conflicts while IHRL applies to peace as well as war. Hague and Geneva Conventions comprise the main body of IHL, and strike a balance between military necessity and humanitarian considerations. As an occupying power, Israel is obligated under them.
Fourth Geneva protects civilians in war time, including those in Occupied Palestine. It restricts the use of force and prohibits seizing non-combatants as hostages, including persons who've laid down their arms or can't fight because of illness, injury or any other reason.
Article 34 states: "the taking of hostages is prohibited." Article 28 states: "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." Article 29 states: "the Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred."
Protocol I, Article 51, paragraph 7 states: "the presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations." In other words, using civilians as human shields is prohibited under all circumstances.
Further, the International Criminal Court's (ICC) Rome Statute, Article 8 prohibits the "Taking of hostages." Israel isn't a Court member but is obligated under international law. Nonetheless, it flaunts it with impunity.
Al Mezan collected sworn testimonies of people's homes seized and used as military posts for days with their residents confined for prolonged periods, beaten and abused, prevented from normal activities, and put in harm's way.
Another practice was called the "neighbor procedure," later changed to "the prior warning procedure" to get around a Court prohibition. Israel commandeers civilians, has them knock on neighbors' doors, usually at night, to deliver military orders to submit to arrest. Hostages are put in harm's way when violence at times erupts that may result in deaths or injuries.
Finally the practice was banned, but Israel blatantly disregarded its own High Court ruling as well as its clear obligation under IHL. It continues to use civilian men, women and children as human shields.
During the Second Intifada (especially for Israel's large-scale West Bank Operation Defensive Shield incursion), Amnesty International (AI) said the following in October 2005:
AI "investigated tens of cases where the Israeli army used Palestinians, children as well as adults, as 'human shields' during military operations in towns and refugee camps throughout the Occupied Territories. Palestinians were forced to walk in front of Israeli soldiers who, at times, fired their weapons while shielding themselves behind the civilians. As well (they) were made to enter houses ahead of Israeli soldiers to check for explosives or gunmen hiding inside, to inspect suspicious objects, to stay in their houses when Israeli soldiers took them over to use as sniper positions, or to enter the houses of wanted, possibly armed, Palestinians to tell them to surrender to Israeli forces."
B'Tselem reports that Israel routinely uses "human shields (as) an integral part of the orders received by Israeli soldiers...." Al Mezan documented "dozens of cases" in Gaza in spite of specific High Court prohibitions, usually at times of incursions. Case studies below refute Israeli claims about respecting civilians, not using them as shields, and abiding strictly according to international and its own case law.
Israeli officials lie. As standard practice, they seize Palestinian civilians randomly, including women and young children, then force them into harm's way.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

" Article 28 states: "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." Article 29 states: "the Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred."
Protocol I, Article 51, paragraph 7 states: "the presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations." In other words, using civilians as human shields is prohibited under all circumstances."



So, the use of schools and hospitals as military centers, and as launch sites for rockets is prohibited??

Please say yes or no:

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM

"Please say yes or no:"
Yes they are - but we only have the reports of the Israelis that they were being used as such. According to the BBC documentary on the incursion, doctors, teachers and other eyewitnesses denied categorically that they were being used for this purpose when the Israelis bombarded them with heavy artillery while the patients and pupils were still inside.
So this would have been a war crime on the part of the Israelis, wouldn't it? - please say yes or no.
The Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against hiumanity colluded in and probably instigated by the Israelis.
Please say yes or no.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM

You mean the 77% of Mandate Palestine given to them in 1923 as an Arab Homeland, where Jews were forbidden from settling?

OH, YOU mean that they should have ALL of Mandate Palestine, and the treaty that established it as a Jewish Homeland should be ignored?

Then please admit that Syria, Lebenon, Iran, Jordan, AND Israel should be dismantled, or admit that you are bigotted against Israel.

I can't find the part of the 1923 Mandate that set aside 23% of Mandate Palestine for the Jews -- I'm sure I'm just overlooking it. Can you point me to that?

Why would the Palestinians have agreed to have 23% of their homeland given away to foreigners? In a time when colonisation was being roundly denounced in public fora, a brand-new colonisation was introduced. "Here, let us take chunks of your land and move a bunch of people from around the world to settle there without your say-so." Yeah, how odd they didn't agree to that.

WHAT treaty established a mandate for a Jewish homeland? Balfour? Churhill's White Paper? Those weren't treaties. No Palestinians signed them.

The thing about Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Jordan, etc., is that they are populated by and large by Syrians, Lebanese, Iranians, Jordanians -- not people shipped in from other parts of the world. Israel stands alone as a (mostly) European colony in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

Lox,
"The IDF also shoots at farmers, fishermen and children."

Individuals within all armies misbehave.
If you have any evidence that IDF targeted those civilians without a legal military justification I will withdraw at once.
I do not believe such evidence exists.
I do not support any such thing and you have gone beyond the bounds of acceptable debate to say that I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:48 PM

Jim,
"I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have."

You have supported the rocketing.
It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive."
The rockets are not fired off randomly, they are aimed at the towns within range.
Everyone knows this, and sees your dishonesty.

You are being dishonest when you say the rockets are not intended for civilians. It is a lie. You will find no body or organisation in the world to agree with you.
You are a sad joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM

IF there were no launchers, it would have been. So, you are saying that the radar plots showing the launchers are false?

If the return fire is radar controlled, it will impact the launch area. Regardless of what the biased witnesses have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:17 PM

"It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive"
Prove it; where is your evidence?
Your silence on everything else proves categorically that you are the supporter of war crimes.
"So we have Jim, the self proclaimed atheist, liberal, pacifist supporting war crimes committed by a right wing fundamentalist religious group."
The difference between you and me is that you have thrown your weight behind the Israelis, and I support none of them.
I said way back that I have no trust whatever in any political body which is tainted by religion "a volatile mixture" I think I phrased it.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people who felt that the previous Government was not giving them the protection they needed. As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is a buffer between the people and Israeli terrorism, no more.
You, on the other hand, have attempted to disguise Israeli terrorism with lies, distortions and evasions. You have ignored the evidence put before you and where you have had to put your money where your mouth is you have gone to great length to hide and explain away the atrocities - pretty much in the same way as you supported the religious fanatisc in Northern Ireland and the massacre of unarmed demonstrators in Derry by absolving Army officers from any responisbility for the actions of their men (whatever happened to 'the buck stops here?)
Now - let's hear it for the Shatila and Sabra massacres hip-hip.....
Brucie
"Regardless of what the biased witnesses have to say"
In matters like this all involved are open to the accusation of bias - it is a case of looking at as much evidence as possible and making up your own minds.
Teachers - doctors, nurses media cameramen and reporters making it up?
Sorry, I'll go with them rather than a regime that has lied and has been exposed as liars time and time again (oh, and has consistently used heavy weapons and chemicals on civilians and has been filmed doing so).
You choose your side I'll choose mine
And the Shatila and Sabra massacres - or are you going to chicken out like Keithie?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast--
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

mousethief, if you really are interested in the British Mandated Palestine (as I believe you are), and its division into Palestine and Trans-Jordan, later the Kingdom of Jordan, and now just plain Jordan, I have provided a site:

unimaps.com/jordan-pal1923/print.html

I also suggest that you read for historical context, A PEACE TO END ALL PEACE, by David Fromkin; if not the whole tome, at least the last half from about page 253 in my trade pb edition. It may still be in print...I note there is a Kindle edition...or your local library can get a copy for you. It is an outstandingly good book, which covers WWI, and the establishment of Mandates and new Nations in the Middle East after the war. While the book ends at about 1925, it is easy to see how that world got to where it is today.

---

Sorry about Guest posting. I am on my laptop, and have forgotten both my password, and the email account I set up from years ago on my Desktop machine.

John otSC

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM

So, the 'stupids' are arguing that it is OK to lob missiles into Israel, and its wrong for Israel to retaliate, and fire back, to stop the missiles????? Israeli civilians being hit is OK??? ..but it's a war crime if co-lateral damage is done by Israel's more accurate, not randomly fired missiles? Maybe the other dumb asses should think of that BEFORE they lob their missiles!...oh they did??...but don't give a shit???...oh-h-hh-h-h, I get it now!!

Here's your song!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM

""The IDF also shoots at farmers, fishermen and children."

Individuals within all armies misbehave.
If you have any evidence that IDF targeted those civilians without a legal military justification I will withdraw at once.
I do not believe such evidence exists."


Of course, you are at a disadvantage, because Aussie FTA SBS TV which shows the multiple foreign language TV news & current events shows is UNCENSORED and readily available nearly 24 hours a day - often I see the film anything up to a day before it 'filters' thru the conventional media.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM

No -we argue that targeting civilians with chemical weapons - is an inhuman war crime and is not justified by other war crimes, should they be proved such. What do you say?
The Israelis are the agressors and have bene for a long time.
As our friends have fallen silent on Shgatila and Sabra perhaps you might like a shot (or is that the wrong word?) andmaybe prove you are not a "stupid"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:10 PM

"Foolestroupe, if you read the piece by the weapons expert I provided, you will see that those smoke munitions are made so as to minimise casualties. "

Truly Sir - your bowels are crossed - you speak utter shit!

I did the Fireworks Pyro Course (oh - fireworks don't hurt people - they are only designed to go bang and sparkle!) Loony! I know how dangerous such things are - I got the warnings lectures and had to regurgitate the technical details!

Not only that - I know what happens when a 4 inch star mortar shell goes off in close proximity to humanity - I heard the explosion from my house when the young girl was killed at the fireworks display (causing immediate suspensions of issuing of all new pyro licences - which is why they did not issue mine at the time!) just up the road - one of the guys on the very course I did insisted that just because the legislation said that you could still use steel mortars and didn't HAVE to use plastic ones, that he would continue to do so - the shell jammed, took off his foot and killed a girl in the audience - outside the legal minimum safety distance.

I can only reply - W*anker! hahahaha!

Pull the other one - it plays Jingle Bells!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM

"Foolestroupe, if you read the piece by the weapons expert I provided, you will see that those smoke munitions are made so as to minimise casualties. "

I agree, there are nowadays very few casualties in the MAKING of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM

Keith,

Jim said:

"The difference between you and me is that you have thrown your weight behind the Israelis, and I support none of them."

I think that clearly answers the question in my original post.


So all that remains to be discussed is support for the IDF.



As for the constant comment by IDF and their supoorters that they try to minimize casualties, I'm not sure if they are using the word "minimize" in a statistical/numerical sense, but more in a literal/physical sense, as in: 'the casualties had all been well and truly minimized'

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:39 PM

unimaps.com/jordan-pal1923/print.html

You seem to have mistaken Transjordan with Palestine. Should all the Palestinians have left Palestine and moved to Transjordan? Why? What right did the British (or French) have to carve these areas up so? What right did they have to tell the Palestinians to yield to a Jewish National Home? Is it just argumentum ad baculum? Might makes right?

Let alone the treachery to Lawrence's Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:46 PM

By the way, thanks for the book suggestion, but as I've just now (last night) finished a book on the Palestine-Israel crisis, and my "to read" stack is longer than my arms and yours put together, it will probably be a while before I come back to books on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:17 PM

Mousecrook,

"You seem to have mistaken Transjordan with Palestine."

NO. If you cannot bother to understand the roots of the area, you have no right to talk about it.



Mandate Palestine, as defined by the San Remo conference, as signed by the Allied Powers and Turkey as the successor of the Ottoman Empire, consisted of the area NOW included in Israel, the West Bank, and Jordan. It was NOT supposed to be divided.

Great Britain ( The Mandate Power) decided that the Jews and Arabs could not live peaceably together, and THEY divided the Mandate Palestine area into Transjordan ( 77%) as the Arab Homeland, where NO Jews would be allowed to settle, and a shrunken Palestine (23% of the original Mandate area) to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the 1921 Treaty. This was in proportion to the relative populations at that time.

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/S/SanRemC.html

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/S/Sevres-T.html


http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/L/LausanneTr.html

So, IF you claim that the parties did not have the right to such "nation building", you are attacking the basic existance of Lebenon, Syria, Iran, Jordan, AND Israel. In addition, invalidayting the peace treaty that ended WW I would bring into question MOST of the boudaries of the modern world.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:19 PM

"Great Britain ( The Mandate Power) decided that the Jews and Arabs could not live peaceably together, and THEY divided the Mandate Palestine area into Transjordan ( 77%) as the Arab Homeland, where NO Jews would be allowed to settle, and a shrunken Palestine (23% of the original Mandate area) to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the 1921 Treaty."

Sounds like the old story about India and (East & West) Pakistan...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:02 AM

you have no right to talk about it.

Dude, put your dick back in your pants. I'll talk about whatever I feel. If I have made mistakes, you can point them out to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:01 AM

"You seem to have mistaken Transjordan with Palestine"

I don't think so, mousethief. While I'm not a cartographer or demographer, I can read maps quite well, especially those that are as well keyed as this one. It clearly shows that Palestine, until 1921, consisted of the area now known as Jordan.

Did you bother to read the five paragraph summary?

It is true that post-WWI Britain, France and the nascent Soviet Union changed the face of Central & Eastern Europe, much of Africa (primarily stripping Germany of its colonies there), and, of course, in the Middle East, where there had been only one independent country other than the Ottoman Empire, Persia (now Iran). Basically, only the Americas escaped their blue pencils.

It happened again after WWII when the United Nations partitioned Korea, and SE Asia, the British and French empires collapsed; the USSR dropped the Iron Curtain over most of Eastern Europe for nearly half a century. But those things are outside the scope of this thread.

Your question about who gave them the right to do these things really has no bearing. They did it because they could do it, and that has been true in every epoch in history. If we were to arbitrarily put things back as they were, when would that be? 1945? 1914? 1848? 1789? 1492? 404? Some time Before the Common Era (or BC in lay terms)?

History grinds on inexorably.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:04 AM

So, bring that stupid fight here?? Listen to you!
People have the right to defend themselves...it's part of LIVING, you know, like, SELF PRESERVATION, and REPRODUCTION...and you want to argue about who has a RIGHT to do WHAT to who, for whatever stupid reason!!????.....You OBVIOUSLY, either have been in a war zone, or lived in a place trying to raise a family, where bombs just fall out of the sky, at random..for 'made up' reasons, that in themselves are STUPID!!...Based on OLD HATREDS!

Missile lobbers???

and...   ..and arguers...(note the woman)...

Think about it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:48 AM

Jim writes: "I would remind you that Arabs are Semites and therefore, following your logic, any criticism of them might be construed as anti-Semitism."

Words and terms have a story behind, you can't play with them ignoring that. The term "anti-semitism" was born in Germany as another way of saying anti-judaism, that is not simple "criticism", as anybody with a minimum knowledge of history knows. Some Arabs played an important part in the story of anti-semitism, for instance with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, al-Husseini, allied to Hitler.

Jim writes: "the Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against humanity colluded in and probably instigated by the Israelis.
Please say yes or no."

The question was not for me, but I'd like to answer: yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:15 AM

Lox's question in his OP,

"I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel"

Jim supports and defends them as "defensive".

Here is one of his posts from last night.
thread.cfm?threadid=131208&messages=188&page=1&desc=yes#2959006

If you have not already, read it through.
Jim is so screwed up with hatred he is unable to be rational on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:02 AM

Your question about who gave them the right to do these things really has no bearing.

It does on the question of why the Palestinian Arabs have felt put upon by the existence of the State of Israel (and the Jewish National Homeland before it) at all. Yes, the world has moved on, you are right. The Nation of Israel is a fait accompli and there is no turning the clock back to 1917 or 1921 or 1947. (Or 1966 or, or, or....) However no solution will be found to the problems of this region if the attitude brought to the table is "just get over it." People don't work that way. It might be nice if they did; but then they wouldn't be people they'd be something else.

(Consider the truth-and-justice hearings in post-Apartheid South Africa. People need to be heard, and need to feel that their concerns are acknowledged.)

Re. the 5-paragraph summary. Yes, I read it. I am not sure you did, however. It does NOT say that the original mandate was divided into Jews on the left, Arabs on the right. I quote:

The mandate, gave the British virtually a free hand in administering the territory. By September, the establishment of "a Jewish national home" in Palestine was explicitly excluded from Transjordan, and it was made clear that the area would also be closed to Jewish immigration.

This does NOT say that everything east of the Jordan was to be the Jewish National Homeland. Only that no part of Transjordan was to be included in the JNH (if I can abbreviate). After 23 September 1922, "Palestine" referred to those lands west of the Jordan, and "Transjordan" those lands east of the Jordan, and they were treated as two separate mandates, albeit under the same High Commissioner (Source). There were still Palestinians west of the Jordan at that time and it is disingenuous to suggest that the British at that time intended all of Palestine (new i.e. post 23.09.1922 definition) to be the JNH.

We can talk about the unfolding of the JNH in Palestine and the Arab resistance to Jewish/Zionist immigration if you like. It's a complicated history (as you know) and it certainly isn't given much attention by most of the bloviators on the crisis. But those who don't learn from history, etc.

But really nobody has addressed my main point: the State of Israel has shown by its actions, as recently as this week, that it's not interested in peace with the Palestinians as equals, if at all. Every time they bite another chunk off the West Bank and fill it with Jewish settlers, they drive home that point. Is there a ne plus ultra point? Will they stop stealing the Palestinian West Bank when they have "settled" 50%? 75%? 90%? When will they stop?

I don't see how any independent observer can draw any other conclusion than that it is the intention of Israel to ultimately "settle" all of the West Bank, bit by bit. At least the ultra-Orthodox are honest enough to say it outright: they quite plainly say that all of "Judea and Samaria" belongs to Israel. When they (the State of Israel) finish what they started in 1948 with "Operation Clean Sweep", and all the Palestinians (with the possible exception of Gaza; at this point who can say?) are driven out of what they consider "Eretz Yisroel" (sp?), then maybe they will truly be interested in peace. If it isn't too late.

ALL THAT SAID: Lest anyone (by which I mean anyone, not necessarily the people I'm responding to in this post) should want to tell lies about where I stand: I deplore the killing of innocent people. The rockets into Israel, and the suicide bombers, and any other form of attacks on Israeli civilians, have got to stop. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:29 AM

"Is there a ne plus ultra point? Will they stop stealing the Palestinian West Bank when they have "settled" 50%? 75%? 90%? When will they stop? "

This game was played in Western Europe in the 1930s..... didn't use the "N" word...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim is so screwed up with hatred he is unable to be rational on this subject. "

Animal Farm: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

No Keith,

Jim stated that he saw Hamas as having been voted for by palestinians to serve a purpose, and he interprets their reason for voting for Hamas as being to instate a "defensive buffer against Isael".

He observes that those firing the rockets do so in the belief that they are defending themselves and that those who support them also believe that that is what they are doing.

He does not say that HE defends Hamas or the use of rockets.


You on the other hand go further than to observe that Israel believes it is acting in self defence. You actively support Israels actions, and you hold a partisan view that Israel is only acting in self defence.

On that basis, you refuse to condemn the violence equally.

You condemn Palestinian violence and support Israeli violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:31 AM

Lox, he said that as well.
We had this exchange.

Jim,
"I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have."

Me
You have supported the rocketing.
It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive."

His reply is in the post I linked to.
He said it was not dishonest to say they were defensive, and demanded proof from me that they were not defensive.

You are wilfully refusing to see that your friend is the only one here who supports and defends the rocketing of Israeli civilians.

I do think that Israel has acted in self defence, but I keep an open mind.
I will reconsider if any evidence is produced.
Too many here believe evil of Israel without evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM

"but I keep an open mind."

I can see the wind blowing thru...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

Just like the missiles going into Israel, and for similar reasons, were the planes that went into the Twin Towers defensive???? Would you call the train station bombing in Spain defensive? London? Lockerbie, defensive?? The hotel in India? The club in Singapore defensive?? Jihad, defensive?????? No!!! It is aggression against a culture and or religion that is other than their particular brand of horseshit!..No more, no less!...and the hatred between the Muslims and Jews has been going on for THOUSANDS of years. Recognized it for what it is, and stop painting it with the broad, often inaccurate brush, of some 'left' idealism. It is what it is, and probably will not end, until there will be massive bloodshed, in the Middle East, and spread to the rest of the world...which it already is!....and one side annihilates the other. ALL of this is needless, and will go on IF they continue their rationalizations of the 'right', to lob missiles, or planes, or bombs, or suicide bombers, aimed at civilians!!!...and to take that stance, that it is justified, you might as well be doing it yourselves!!...but then, it's easier to be an armchair diplomat, who is or has been to afraid, to actually be in battle, so instead, you form opinions about everybody else doing it...as long as it ain't you!
If those Muslims want their homeland, and for that homeland to not be used as a base, to launch attacks at their neighbors, their 'goal' might be accomplished sooner....but that IS NOT their goal. Irradicating Israel is. World domination under Sharia law is. FUCK 'EM! They can damn well learn to live in peace with ALL of us....or face the consequences!!
They want to taget civilians? they want to target Israel?..and hide in their mosques, and behind innocent civilians, because they expect the rest of the world to 'respect' the laws, that the rest of the world set up..and not attack those places..while they attack innocent families, women and children????..with utter disregard?....They can all go to hell!...and congrats to Israel or anyone wanting to help them with the trip!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:48 AM

I say that IDF is different in that it does not deliberately target civilians.

Sadly that does not appear to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM

Give us a break Lox.
We have all read his posts, except the long ones obviously.
Why not ask him straight?
Say "Jim, do you defend the rockets or support them?"
Why not Lox?
You must have wanted to know for sure, or why start this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

McGrath:"Sadly that does not appear to be true."

Yeah, Especially when the missiles are coming for well populated civilian areas. It's called collateral damage.

See my prior post, as to why that happens, and then explain why, you feel Hamas is firing from behind civilian cover.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

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