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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,andrew Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM This thread is more about ourselves than the actual topic. We must acknowledge that Conrad sees a problem. In my experience when someone says something, there's always a little bit of truth in it, however small. We can say what we like, but if someone feels something, then they feel it. We can't argue that away. They just feel it. We may not feel it ourselves, but then that's our feeling. My view is that many professional musicians don't get paid enough, and are not supported by "the establishment" in the way they could be. Most people like music of some sort, and are more than happy to pay for it. Anyone can argue with my view, but it won't change it. Only I can change it. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM Well Niney has phrased it well. I do agree with some of Conrad's underlying ideas, but sadly what he SAYS he wants DOES exist. Perhaps not in his area, or not enough for him. And the idea that 'Big Corporations' has 'taken over' Music - of almost all genres is not a new idea. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:11 PM Perhaps we should ask Joe Offer to close this thread. It's clearly going nowhere. Conrad takes no notice of what anyone writes, especially if it does not accord with his preconceived ideas. Like I said earlier, his posts are like a transcript of a stuck record. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:53 PM folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals. Until the invention of amplifiers, of course. I see a parallel with horses and cars there.. Got any further with answering my questions yet, Conrad? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Niney Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:10 PM What I observe is thus: Conrad is terrible and hazy at putting his point across. His point seems to be: He doesn't like festivals where money changes hands, but is happy for them to happen, so long as he and his like minded fellows can also have Free festivals, where no-one is paid, especially not the musicians. One can simply pish in the bushes. He only wants the occasional Free festival, not for all of them to become Free. Just enough to keep the music Free and free. Heck, he's even saying that Free festivals will inadvertently help the "folk" music by spreading the word. So, what's the problem? Don't we all have Free gatherings now and then? Even if it's just a few people round in the garden drinking and playing. Now, I know Conrad can come across as a stoned 60's ne'er was who doesn't listen to anyone else's views or even acknowledge they exist, but as far as I can see here, he's being harmless. Infuriating, but harmless. Don't get me started on his other blinkered threads though.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Rob Naylor Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM I've given up Will, the guy's obviously a namesake of the next tube stop east of East Ham! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected Why? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM vs hollywood experience or rock music experience folk is and has been for centuries, non amplified, small audience, home based and by and large operated by those other than professionals. what we have now has strayed and needs to be corrected. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:34 PM Conrad, what do you mean by "folk experience?" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue. Again professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center. No one needs to make money and then also use volunteers just figure it out it is called abuse for personal gain. Share the joy- everyone volunteer. And if there is not much money involved then why bother? Just work for free make things easier, no accountants to hire....taxes will be easier Yes and get every provider of all things for the festival to do the same. Only a few days a year. Like a barn raising all can pitch in. But you see there is enough money in it for the food chain that no one gives it up. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM Howard- except for the folk singers that do both. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:19 PM Conrad, this should be a very simple question for you to answer. Since you keep using the phrase so much, I presume you can explain just exactly what you mean by "folk experience." Okay? I'm listening. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music? Watch my lips - folk singers don't play dance music. They sing folk songs. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 01 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM Conrad, I can only assume the festivals you go to are very different from the ones most of the rest of us (on both sides of the Pond) attend. The majority of festivals here are run by volunteers on a not-for-profit basis. Any surplus they make is usually re-invested in the following year's festival. With the exception of the headline acts, the fees they pay to performers are often not that generous - often less than the act could charge for an individual event - although they often provide accommodation as well. No one I know is getting rich from folk festivals. A few people, including some performers and a few full-time organisers, make a living. If you don't believe that people should make a living from folk music, then the answer is simple - don't pay to see them. Just don't then complain about it. However most people value what the professionals have to offer, and are willing, indeed happy, to pay. Festivals, and especially those with a substantial budget, provide an opportunity to see far more top-quality performers in a short space of time than would otherwise be possible. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:54 AM With no alternatives what are they to do? They think they are getting a folk experience and are mislead! Sorta like the May 1 st celebration in nearby PA this year. A crappy commercial experience at the festival. I brought that up. Oh they said thats not the real festival we have that with free admission and food and drink after we have robbed the public in the crappy daytime version. I know all about the dual so called folk culture. And it is not helping the music in general. Exclusion is not good. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Leadfingers Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:17 AM 200 threads wasting bandwidth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM No one forces people to go to commercial folk events... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:28 AM Do we need to descend to the level of commercial football or rock concerts which we know are inflated? I hold the opinion that folk music is different. More a part of culture than a commercial thing. Who needs to pay anything? The organizers would not be doing it if they did not make money themselves and for the parasitic vendors selling everything at gold plated prices. The money goes somewhere and there is a lot of it involved. But if everyone was dedicated to the music then there would be no need for any money. So just make that happen people will come and the market will expand. You mean to tell me that folk musicans dont play dance music? Think again. Folk musicians have simply lost the potential markets to other genres-simply a marketing problem as people will invest in almost anything if properly convinced. Then again folk music is rationed. If people could just walk in and experience it from the outside you would see much more of a market develop. But no folk musicians want to inflate their ego and charge rock star admissions. No wonder things remain relativly small and unprofitable. Rationing does not help anything but the ego. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM Since you admit that ticket prices aren't a deterrent to a festival from selling out, then your argument that prices are limiting the market doesn't hold water. Most festivals offer extremely good value for money: a weekend ticket for a well-known festival later this month costs £65 for 3 days with dozens of top-rate performers - compare that with the price of a couple of hours at rock concert or 90 minutes of a Premier Division football match. At all the festivals I go to, the food concessions sell good food at reasonable prices. As for the idea that festival organisers and performers are getting rich, that's frankly laughable. Perhaps things are different around Baltimore, but everyone else, including those in the US, seems to have a similar experience to mine. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM Conrad No one puts a gun to the heads of volunteers. You also have a rather bizarre take on meerkat forces. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Manitas_at_home Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:16 AM Dance bands get the jobs because the jobs are playing for dances. Simples. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:01 AM Why do dance bands get the jobs? Simple, they have captured the market. Folk musicians will not be able to capture the market by making themselves scarce via charging fees. There are perhaps many in the audience of a festival but how integrated are they within the culture? How many are simply hangers on being entertained. Why the big stages? Way too many people for a folk setting to work best. We seem content to go with huge crowds of listeners rather than smaller venues where the experience is more real. So are we creating a folk experience in highly commercialized venues? Although there are exceptions I find that on average few folk musicians stay at festivals after they play and if they stay they do not mingle with the audience but stay in their own corners. Yes I go to a good number of events in the area. Again why are musicians and festival organizers so dependant on volunteers. Simple- they want to make more money and slavery is an easy way to do it. No trouble with volunteering but why cant we all do it? Seems simple to me. And the proper sign of success and dedication that one wants to achieve. It is very widely known, and I listen to commentary on this all the time via the BBC that the deminse of folk clubs is due only to the rise of commercialization the result is huge massive festivals with high ticket prices that infact get sold out. This does not help the music but limits it. It does make the fat cat organizers and musicians a lot of money or they wouldnt be doing it in this way. Just look at food costs- in festivals rather than a bargain that would keep one coming back it is a rip off at several times market price. It is all about profit taking or else we would not see such high costs. If I went to the UK I would purposefully avoid all the huge festivals and base any tour around folk clubs that are extremely reasonable if not free. Just listen to the gig guides on the BBC programs. They cover the massive and the tiny. Yet good names appear at the clubs on a regular basis as well. Perhaps it is due to more dedication that the UK at least still has some grass roots club scene left. Here in the Baltimore Washington area the only venues with a few exceptions are extremely expensive and not only that but those running the things are into costly re-enactment costuming as well. So instead of feeling together one feels being performed at by a bunch of masqueraders drinking beer that you cant afford. There are cheaper places which are just as good if not better food and drink quality but the organizers are seemingly elitists who just dont want just anyone to attend. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM Some people dont bother to read. Pots, kettles and black comes to mind. Lots of greedy folks in the festival business. Festivals should be entirely volunteer from the port o pots up. I don't know where these greedy folk are. AFAIK, most festivals in the UK are heavily dependent on volunteers. The principal organisers at the bigger festivals may be paid, but I very much doubt they earn all that much. Like the rest of folk music, there isn't sufficient money in it for the greedy to be interested and when, occasionally, they do try, they have tended to get their fingers badly burnt. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 01 Sep 10 - 03:46 AM Conrad, apart from lacking any understanding of the economics of running an event, you appear not to understand the nature of the market for folk music. If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting that folk musicians should perform for free at festivals in order to generate more paid "private" work. I don't know about the US, but here in the UK "private" work means mainly weddings, parties and school PTAs. There are very few opportunities for singers in this market, the work is mainly for dance bands. Also, the audience is quite different and is mainly made up of people who aren't folkies but want something different - a ceilidh/barn dance is a good mixer for people of all ages. Most performers, and especially most professionals, prefer to play to an audience which understands and appreciates the music. These audiences are found at festivals, which over here have taken over from folk clubs as the main venues. Most people are very happy to pay to see good-quality performers, and the price of most festivals represents incredible value for money when you consider the number and variety of artists they put on. Your problem, and it is a consistent theme through all your postings, is that you don't want to pay for the things you enjoy, so you expect others to give them to you for nothing. Get real. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:17 AM Your mind is fried Pissant! Your brain is a dead thing without capabilities of logic or reason. I wouldn't say that you're an unkempt, uncouth, unbathed, broke-dick jadrool, who has moved pemanently to Filbertville, but I think anyone could make that case if they wanted to do so. I know it wasn't always that way......But the basic you was always there.......Conrad in a SUIT!!! Get some help. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM Looks to me (especially from the crowds--in the hundreds of thousands--who show up at the Northwest Folklife Festivals) that interest in folk music is not only alive and well, it's verging on the downright fat and sassy. Same thing with concerts and such put on by both the Seattle Folklore Society and the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society, AND the Victory Music organization in Tacoma, south of here. All well attended. Unlike the Folklife Festival, which is free to the public and for which the singers sing for no pay, there IS a charge for these concerts, AND the singers DO get paid. In any case, nobody, not the singers and not the concert promoters, are getting rich from folk music. Maybe Conrad lives in an area of unusual drought. In any case, it looks like he's just going to have to get used to doing without. Suck it up, Conrad! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:35 PM Conrad, your idea of giving away the product in order to expand the market just doesn't work. When it comes to marketing, folk music doesn't work like heroin. I presume you are still busy formulating lucid answers to all the questions you've not yet answered? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM Actually yes. When more people access folk music more demand for it will exist outside of the public festival area and that means more business for the pros. Lots of greedy folks in the festival business. Festivals should be entirely volunteer from the port o pots up. If volunteers are dedicated then why not everyone. Ok if you perform all your public events free of course that is wonderful Im not complaining about that. I am complaining about musicians who take money, often from public sources, and do so on the backs of volunteers. Tell me any other profession that does that? With festival organizers its not the music its the money. I have known several. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Edthefolkie Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM Yeah, there are a lot of sellout millionares lighting their cigars with £50 notes on stage at festivals. See 'em all the time. Like the Dixie Beeliners at Cropredy the other week. They self financed their trip over from the States, figuring they would break even if they did Cropredy and a gig the following day. Which got cancelled, so they returned out of pocket. Which p*ssed me off because they were a really talented group of friendly people who wowed the audience. But I suppose it's right that they should be punished as they not only accepted a fee but had the temerity to sell a few CDs, capitalist lackeys that they are! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:18 PM Everybody ought to have a wise old drinking uncle. He's the one who, although he often outrages most of his relatives, is the one who tells a kid the things he really needs to know. For example, my drinking uncle once told me, "Ya know, m'boy, if you get something for nothing, more often than not, you really get your money's worth!" Words of wisdom. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM There ya go, Dick! Egad! What was I thinking!?? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: dick greenhaus Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM well, they'd lose money on each gig, and make it up in volume.....? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM "Folk music needs expansion and professionals would benefit if it expands therefore they should perform free for public events so that the market can expand." I already do, Conrad, as do dozens--hundreds--of other professional performers that I know and know of. What the hell more do you want!?? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Continuity Jones Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:26 PM Hello Conrad, If you pay the volunteers, they cease to be volunteers and become employees. Or WAGE SLAVES! Bastards. Best, CJ |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM Some people dont bother to read. Folk music needs expansion and professionals would benefit if it expands therefore they should perform free for public events so that the market can expand. NOTHING WRONG WITH PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS BUT DONT TREAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW YOUR MUSIC LIKE SLAVES PAY THE VOLUNTEERS OR WORK FREE YOURSELF. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM Ever so slightly sick LOL |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM Tootler, tell her to give it up and start sticking rubbish to cars - it's far more lucrative. If only I'd known when I was younger.. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM Conrad's posts look to me like a transcript from stuck record that has been spinning on the turntable for a *very* long time. I have a friend who is a professional cellist. She has been through the Music College system here in the UK which means she spent the best part of 10 years training, not forgetting the time she spent at school. She gets along by doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Birthdays, Weddings, Corporate events, Short term engagements in Opera, or as backing for pop musicians, occasionally background music in adverts, a bit of teaching and anything else that will pay a bit of money. She's not exactly rolling in it and last time I saw her, she made a comment to me that "You have to sell your soul" to make a living. Somehow I find that hard to square with Conrad's views on professional musicians. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM Miaow...? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM Conrad, you appear to make enough money from your activities to live, feed your family and run four cars. Good luck to you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to berate others for trying to do similar? Incidentally, you don't appear to have answered any of my questions yet - you must be a busy man. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM Sort of like trying to have a rational discussion with a cat. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM Conrad. I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're slightly bonkers... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM No folk festivals are public events and they need to be free other wise the music has a gate and that gate limits its reach. Do not confuse folk artists or players or performers with wage slaves. Professional musicians can be wage slaves but not when they should be serving the public as it a large group. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM So your being paid for what you do is OK; for others not? "When I accept payment for my work it is private work.." In what way is a lecture "private" except that only certain people can afford to be there, whether from their own pocket or from that of the host? In what way is a folk event not private when only those who can afford the entrance fee will be there? What other free services would you have? You mentioned earlier that you were once a teacher - did you do that for free or was it at a "private" school? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:53 AM I dont need volunteers or a festival management. I just need a parking space and they are to be had everywhere. I come park, and the crowd comes. I tell festival volunteers to ask for a slice of the proceeds-what fools to work so hard so others can make money on stage. Abusive practice Stupid And at our huge arts event everyone gets in free anyway. Been there done that. Not necessary. Either all volunteer or all get paid. Now what is not fair about that. When I accept payment for my work it is private work- a book for a private individual for example, a lecture to a select group. Not public. There is a vast difference between private and public. Professional musicians need to inhabit the private domain or when doing public donate their services. When public events are more accessible then there will be many more private events to keep the pros employed. And no I dont think of public funds as any different. Not only does taking money by pros limit number of public events as only so much can be afforded but should't public funds be better spent on the eunemployed, and hungry? Again the professional musician not only limits the number of events but takes money that could go to more pressing concerns. I am really concerned about the continuing use of public funds for folk music in these difficult times. I am encouraged by the attitude of at least one of my professional friends when faced with a shrinking public subsidy for their concerts. Lets re tool she said- there is still no shortage of wakes, weddings, birhdays and other private celebrations which are very well funded in deed- you just have to find them. Again. If more people experience the music via free folk music more will value it and more will select folk music for their private events. Not rocket science here. Why do professional musicians want scarcity? Because they think it makes them more secure but it does the opposite- it limits access and limits the market. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:14 AM Perhaps you might answer that before you answer all my other questions - which I'm not going to repeat, as they are still where I left them. Languishing unattended in a sad state of neglect, wondering tearfully what on earth they did to deserve such cruel disregard. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 31 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM Conrad, when you go to these events, donating your services freely and receiving financial donations from the appreciating public, how much money do you donate to the volunteers who have facilitated the circumstances in which you can carry out this practice - or 'work of art', as you might have it? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: MGM·Lion Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:57 AM Peasant: I think you should lecture and teach for nothing; and also self-publish your books by finding a printer who agrees with your philosophy and will run off the printrun for no payment [not even expenses of ink, paper &c, because of course you will have no money to pay such], which you will then distribute free of charge to anyone who wants a copy [or a dozen or 200 for that matter]. If you fail to do these things, are you not polluting these essential activities with immoral commercialism?, ~ just as these misguided professional folk performers are polluting the pool of pure folk. Otherwise you are not really being consistent, are you? Fault my arguments, please. I just can't wait. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 30 Aug 10 - 10:21 PM People can hear buskers on the street for nothing if they want to. Event organisers book professionals so they can offer their audience more. That way they get bigger audiences. Volunteers usually do it so they can get in for nothing, or just to be a part of the event. Professionals very seldom have any say in how public funds are spent. |
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