The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM

Oh and this weekend. Faversham Hop festival. Music in every pub, 2 open air stages, Every event totally and absolutely free to the visitor. Yes people are collecting money in buckets, but you don't have to pay if you choose not to. It's funded by the council and the local business community, but you do't have to buy a beer if you don't want to, and you can take your own sandwiches. How more Free do you want? It's been going for 15 years. So it can and does happen.
So, Off you go then and do it yourself. and stop moaning.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM

But not in the festival itself where the big names are!

Next- lets see how free it really is-

What was the price of a pint in the pubs that had music?
Dont think it was cheap for some reason.......

Musicians used to bring in people to be ripped off...not exactly friendly.....

I shall wait for a report.

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Good grief, this is like herding cats or knitting fog.
There is endless amounts of Free music out there. Every pub at Sidmouth festival for a start..Midday to Midnight. Songs Tunes, Old time American, traditional, contemporary Even a free dance in the Ford. and a lot of the booked guests often pop in to a session or two for (You guessed it) FREE!
You could spend a whole week there and never pay a penny. A lot of people do!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

Ah yes the standard- if it doesnt cost money people wont appreciate it.
Sad....try another excuse.

I hand out ice cold free watermellon slices at festivals. People really do appreciate it~

Once again.....there are lots of places, parks urban centers without toilets and nobody has to shit behind the bush.

The entire mental condition of having to have a toilet every two feet is amusing. Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

Come on folks find some real good reasons that Free folk can't happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:34 AM

If pigs could fly, Conrad's ass would be O'Hare.............

Fallacy 1 is that all these people would show up to listen to folk music if it were free. I know a lot of people who wouldn't show up if they were paid to be there.........much like myself with opera.

Fallacy 2 is that folk people will appreciate free music far more than any they would have to pay for. I personally could care less whether a musician is paid or not as it really doesn't enter into any personal evaluation on my part. But if I had to listen to someone at a place where I had to shit behind a bush, I wouldn't be there.........and neither would probably 99% of the rest of the world.

Fallacy 3 is even tolerating the inane and ridiculous posting of the Super Pissant, Conrad Bladderass.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

I wasn't going to waste any more time on this numbskull.....but.....
(Conrad)
" I have seen folk musicians sitting by the hotel pool, while volunteers did all the hard work"
Priceless!!!!! Thanks Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:56 PM

Would that be a bacon tree or a ham bush?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

IF

As Katherine Hepburn, portraying Eleanor of Aquitaine, said in the movie The Lion in Winter:

"If pigs could fly, they're would be pork in the tree tops!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

For one thing there is no excuse for littering. Enforce the law.

Just another excuse thrown up

In the parks all around here its pack it in pack it out. There are no trash cans. The parks do sometimes give out plastic bags.

Too many excuses.

One down!

Now why cant we all have free folk music NOW?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:22 PM

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

I was being serious, but I'm glad you realise that extending your 'philosophy' beyond your own personal boundaries is absurd.

Now, can you please define 'moving things forward'? Would it involve the words 'yes, Conrad you are right', by any chance?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM

Let me cite an example of what happens when a large number of people congregate anywhere, Conrad.

Every year, during Seattle's Seafair, one of the events is a world class hydroplane race on Lake Washington. Big weekend. Lot's of stuff going on, and between heats in the race, the Air Force's "Blue Angels" put on a demonstration of precision flying over the Lake. Huge crowds show up on the shores of the lake to watch the race and the other events.

The following Monday, if you drive around the lake, it looks like a blizzard of litter hit the place, and Seattle Parks Department employees have to clean it up.

And all of this has to be paid for by the taxpayers, whether they give a billy hoot about the race, the flying demonstration, Seafair, or not! Who ELSE is going to do it?

You say, "You pack it in, you pack it out." Sounds fine in principle, and if people would actually DO that, it would work. But—PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE DON'T DO THAT!! Some people do, and that's great. But the vast majority of people DO NOT.

And no, the population of Seattle is not particularly messy. Quite the contrary, in fact. Seattle is one of the best cities in the country for recycling and such, and is generally one of the cleanest cities in the country. This is because we live in one of the most beautiful and, so far, relatively unspoiled areas of the country, and we want to keep it that way.

Conrad, you hang all your ideas on "IF this" and "IF that," but unfortunately that's not the way the world works. And then you say, "Yes, but IF—"

And off you go into la-la land again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM

Buy your instruments from your gig money and leave the public coffers which are already stretched out of it.

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:26 PM

What about the manufacturers of instruments? Are they restricting the numbers of musicians by charging for their goods? Should we all be making our own, presumably from donated timber? Should we all get free petrol to get to your events? Free cars? Free trousers?

The only 'sense' I can make from your... [insert colourful description] ...is that you want to dispense with the whole system of exchange that the entire(?) world runs on. Unfortunately we're all stuck with it for now, so I suggest you persue a career in politics if you feel so strongly about your principles, and leave the rest of us alone to our stupidity and exploitation. Pity us from a distance, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

If there are no bills who has to foot them?

All volunteer all sharing means no bills....no none nothing. I sit down in a park to play music....no bills. Why do we have to have bills?

Something to do with human greed.

Why would you let people trash a festival?

Talk to the park service its called pack it in pack it out.

Yes your festival seems good I said that and commendable but if you let people create bills for taxpayers well thats not good. If your folks set up stages then where is the cost?

You should bother to understand that the entire game plan can be and should be re-written.

Self help. Free it now. Dont generate any bills- you just dont have to.

I live in a big city no one or hardly anyone pees in bushes there is some litter but by and large people dont trash city parks.

You must live in an area with very messy people. Dont give tax payers such a hard time insist that people clean up.

Now what is stopping you?

And by the way I have already blown away the stages- we dont need them. No chairs no stages no electrical no amps.

Keep the performance areas small, sit on grass, listen and play music.

What is so hard for you people to understand.

We don't need all the crap. That is only putting costs in where we need to make accessibility most important.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM

". . . but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why do they charge money....."

Howard just lined it all out above, crystal clear.

Good God, Conrad, you can't really be that thick!! You're constant harping on your "all volunteer, no money changes hands, all free" folk festivals is totally unrealistic. SOMEBODY has to foot the bills.

At the Northwest Folklife Festivals, NOBODY gets paid for anything. Not the singers, not the people who set up the stages, NOBODY! And the attendees do not have to pay to get in. Yet, there ARE costs. Do you have any idea of the amount of set-up ahead of time (temporary stages and such) and CLEAN-UP afterward that is necessitated by a couple hundred thousand people mobbing a 74 acre area over a three-day weekend? And these costs are absorbed by the TAXPAYERS, some of whom do not give diddly-squat about folk music. Yet, THEY have to pick up the tab!

Now, is THAT fair?

Grow up, Conrad. You're giving FREELOADERS a bad name!!

Don Firth

P. S. I, for one, am not going to waste any more time on this nut-case. His ideas are not going to fly anyway, not because of someone's "profit motives," for the simple reason that they are totally unworkable. How many people are going to happily volunteer to clean up all the crap in the bushes and wipe up all the pee because Conrad doesn't want to have to pay for anything, including Port-a-Potties? (Is HE willing to volunteer to do it? I didn't think so!)

So why even bother?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM

Conrad,
Some of the people will get paid all of the time--even though they don't deserve it. Some of the people won't get paid most of the time even though they do deserve it. Why? 'Cause they're not worth nothing anyhow. Some will spew like an undersea oil spill to draw attention to how great it is to have a silly point to make.

Things will fall out as they will. You are simply a pugnacious churl and an impudent rapscallion, dare I say, a troll. Go get back under your bridge! I think that your ideas aren't worth discussing--so I won't.
Art

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

Listening, discussing answering questions

The point of it all is to demonstrate that professional folk musicians and those using festivals and other public events to make money are slowing the spread of the music and should make it more accessible via adopting the free folk music model

No I did not say anyone who gets paid is wrong.
I said that when you charge money the price goes up that gets passed along to those wishing to attend and it will keep people out which should never happen if the goal is widening the market.

Do not confuse donations with fees. Donations are totally optional. My art is 100% accessible. All the time. Unless I am having to drive far out of town.

I have never objected to free will donations.

Those who volunteer to help people make money are misguided, maybe stupid. Why cant the musicians give everyone a share? Who are professional musicians that they take money without sharing?

Makes perfect sense to me!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

Conrad, You won't listen, you won't discuss, and you ignore questions. You just keep trotting out the same nonsense. What's the point of all this? You aren't convincing anyone as far as I can see, and aren't likely to. On the one hand, you say you do your stuff for free and anyone who gets paid is wrong, and on the other hand, you say you take donations and the volunteers are wrong and stupid.

Go away and think about it until you can come out with something that makes sense.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:51 AM

The big problem in this discussion is that you do not realize that I am calling for complete paradigm change.

-Yes in early times there were lots of festivals. Markets, saint's days, loads and loads of they all had musicians.Church events, state events. Small venues not huge ones scattered here and there.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS MODEL JUST BREAK UP THE FESTIVAL INTO MANY SMALL STAGES (30 OR SO SEATS) AND DO IT CORRECTLY
YOU CAN STILL ACCOMMODATE THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE BUT IN A WAY THAT IS PROTECTIVE OF THE TRADITIONS AND REAL. THE ONLY REASON THAT FESTIVALS HAVE BIG STAGES IS BECAUSE THEY FORCE MORE PEOPLE IN TO MAKE MORE MONEY FOR LESS TIME PLAYING MUSIC.

-When a community gets together to do an event everyone can pitch in. You know what that means? Each brings to the event the materials and skills that they have readily available.

THERE IS NO REASON THAT EVENTS CAN NOT BE PUT TOGETHER IN THIS WAY. QUITE POSSIBLE. IT MEANS THERE ARE NO EXPENSES!

-The biggest problem with the folk music world is that is trying to take a special genre rooted in the cultural experience, intimate and emulate the rock star and hollywood star model. This is not necessary.
You dont have to make a cd, you dont need a tour, you dont need a stage crew, you dont have to become well known you just have to play music, share it and when a public event you do it for free when a private event comes along you charge money.

WHEN THE FOLK MUSIC WORLD HAS TO SUPPORT WANNABE ROCK STAR LIKE FOLKS WE ARE ALL PAYING TOO MUCH. WE DONT NEED STAR WORSHIP.

We also do not need events which are primarily entertainment and sales events. The primairy task for festivals is:

1. Preservation of the old material in living form.

2. Encouraging performance and composition as a part of the lifeway at home by ordinary people

Nothing in this requires expense or profit small or large.

You just have to think differently and be open to major paradigm change.

If its not free you are keeping someone out. That is intolerable.

I dont care what the organization if people are getting paid please do not ask for volunteers 0that practice is unethical. I dont care if the volunteers like it. They are still being used. yeah! I have seen folk musicians relaxing by the hotel pool whilst volunteers were doing the hard work. Yes there are exceptions but not enough of them.

Nothing wrong with professional musicians but their role in public needs to be adapted. Once the music is freed there will be much more access and more opportunities for private events.

Yes we can have folk music everywhere. No sense rationing it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM

Howard. Don't waste your keyboard on this guy. Apart from anything else, he's far to easy a target.
His ideas are obviously ludicrous, and unworkable. Nuff said.
What is it about this place (which by and large is a huge repository of information) that seems to attract these people...I could name two others but I won't.
Let's just ignore this thread and it will drop off the bottom in the next 24 hours. He really isn't worth the hassle, Is he?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:11 AM

Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money.....
They charge money because they have to recover their expenses. Most festivals, here at least, are run on a not-for-profit basis where the surplus goes towards the following year's festival

Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations
But how are they funded? They still have costs to meet. Usually they are sponsored by public money, but you seem to object to this.

If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse.
You really are incredibly patronising. There is a large voluntary not-for-profit sector covering charitable and artistic activities which relies heavily on volunteers. It is very normal, and is usually considered a good thing, as an opportunity to contribute to the community - by everyone but you apparently

You don't need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology.
For centuries there were no folk festivals. Folk music was performed in much smaller environments where of course PA is not necessary. A festival, in any meaningful sense of the word, has large groups of people trying to listen to the music. That requires PA, especially out of doors or in a tent with no natural acoustics.

Small stages 30 or more set up many of them....
Possible, but likely to be chaotic

Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid.
Stop being so patronising. Why do you think you know better than people what they want, or how they should spend their money? What it means is that they value what they are getting.

People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good.
No, but it still means they value what they get out of it. Your problem is that you don't value music enough to want to pay what it's worth. You want people to give it to you for free.

Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it.
Do people spend all day on the metro, while eating and drinking as well? Of course not - they travel for a short time and then they will find themselves somewhere with bathrooms. You cannot seriously believe you can run a festival without basic facilities.

Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year.
Why should he? He's got a business to run, staff to pay and a family to feed. Maybe you can find one who's interested enough in folk music to sponsor your event, but don't rely on it. You're just trying to freeload off other people.


All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple.
In the majority of cases that means no festival. Simple.

No festival would be financially viable if it had to pay all the people it needs to make it run at the market rate. People are willing to donate their time (usually not for nothing, they do get free tickets) in order to ensure that the event takes place. If they are happy to do this, what right have you to object?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM

Never said anyone is getting any particular amount of money but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why doe they charge money.....

Yes there are a very few free festivals around congratulations

If you volunteer so that someone else can make money you are stupid. Again what other institution or industry does that. It is abuse.

You dont need a pa for small groups. For centuries folk music did very well without it. You are simply addicted to electric technology.

Small stages 30 or more set up many of them....

Just because people pay for something doesnt mean its a good thing. It just means that they either have too much money or are stupid.

People pay money for drugs too that does not make it good.

Look folks in urban areas people have no trouble dealing with a lack of restrooms. In the USA here in baltimore not a single light rail stop has bathrooms, the entire dc metro is bathroom less. Yet people function. Get over it.

Anyway why cant he port o pot guy be as dedicated to folk music as the others? Its only a few days out of the year.

All volunteer or no volunteer. Simple.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM

Conrad, your concern for "stupid" volunteers and "manipulated" audiences is not only misplaced, it is unbelievably arrogant and condescending. Can you not understand that the people who volunteer, or buy festival tickets, are intelligent adults who know what they are doing, get pleasure from it and believe they are getting value for their money and time? If they didn't, why would they keep going back each year?

Besides, the type of festival you are advocating seems to depend entirely on volunteers donating not only their time but food, facilities and presumably money to pay for those things which cannot just be brought along. Are they "stupid" too, and aren't you concerned about exploiting them?

I struggle to understand how your festival could possibly draw people into folk music. Apparently they are expected to gather in a field with no shelter, presumably no seating (unless some exploited volunteer provides it), and required to piss in the hedge and crap in the ditch. The won't be able to hear the music because there's no PA. The event could be shut down by the authorities at any moment because you don't have the necessary licences and permits. Is that really a good advertisement for folk music?

Your whole argument seems to be based on your belief that people are getting rich by running folk festivals and performing as folk musicians. No one else seems to know of anyone who is doing this. In particular, most folk musicians could earn far more performing in other genres, but they don't because they love the music However if there are a few people getting rich out of it, it will be because they provide what people want - good luck to them.

Most people who appreciate folk music value it sufficiently to pay what it is worth. Apparently you don't, and expect other people to give it to you for nothing. Can't you see how exploitative that is? and yet you have the nerve to criticise others. Take a good look at yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

"churches are non-profit"

I ran head smack into this garbage in the SCA - also a 'non-profit organization', where misguided people insisted that events should run at a loss...

All that phrase means is that no individual who 'owns' the organization (is a paid up member!) can get a 'share dividend from the profits' - it is all plowed back into the organization.

Such organizations may - in various countries - actually pay income tax on certain of their money making activities.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Conrad has no understanding of jackshit Don.......The fumes from his unbathed body created a BO that turned his brain to mush years ago and desssicatted his already tiny balls to the size of BB's.

Can't we all just agree that Conrad is fucked up and stop this thread now?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:30 PM

By the way, I almost missed this.

"Churches are non profit."

True, Conrad. But—the clergy and the staff of a church get a regular salary (you did realize that, didn't you?). And the building itself, be it a small country church or a huge Gothic cathedral with gold inlaid icons, silver chalices, ornate stained glass windows, and lavish tapestries, must be maintained. Most organs go on the fritz from time to time and must be repaired and maintained. Organists and choir directors also get a salary. Bach wrote most of his music while employed as the organist of a church.

The money to do all these things doesn't come from God, delivered by an angel dressed like a UPS delivery man with wings and a halo.

The money is provided by contributions from the congregation.

And these same churches often provide free meals to the poor and the indigent, sometimes provide low-cost housing the homeless, sponsor counseling programs and meeting rooms for such groups as Alcoholics Anonymous—as does the church that my wife and I attend. It also administers an "Alternatives to Violence" program to prisons and reformatories in the area, and it is the national headquarters for the Lutheran Peace Fellowship.

Yes, churches are non-profit. But who do you think pays for all of this?

You have a very shallow and naïve idea of the way things work, Conrad.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:07 PM

Conrad, you obviously have no clear idea of what a "folk experience" actually is. You've ducked my question by merely comparing it to other kinds of performances, but without specifying what makes a "folk performance" different from any other musical experience.

I have already describe, a number of times here, the Northwest Folklife Festival, which is run by volunteers, none of the singers receive any pay, and which is open, free of charge, to the public.

It's held at the Seattle Center, a 74 acre area that encompasses several concert halls and auditoriums (auditoria?), meeting rooms, and open spaces where stages either already exist (such as the amphitheater in front of the Horiuchi mural), or are put up and run by volunteers. All manner of folk events are held there, traditional ballads to bluegrass to Native American chanting and drumming to Australian sheep shearing to—you name it, you'll probably find it there.

Yes, there are concession stands there selling food and drink (non-alcoholic) to those who wish. No one forces them to buy anything, and if one is hungry but doesn't want to buy at any of the stands, there is nothing to stop them from leaving the Seattle Center and going to one of the nearby restaurants (or, for that matter, a couple of nearby taverns and cocktail lounges), then returning to the Center. Or one could always bring a sandwich and a bag of chips.

So—what you are asking for already exists. If not in your area, then get off your butt and organize one. Just like we did here!!

By the way—lest there be any misunderstand:    the Seattle Center is owned by the city, like a public park, and it is maintained by the taxpayers.

Other events on a smaller scale consist of such things as the "hootenanny" which Bob Nelson held last weekend in his fairly capacious back yard. Pot luck, BYOB, and a whole batch of people spent the afternoon playing and singing for each other. No set program. If these things take running at all, Bob runs them with a light hand. If one singer in particular seems to be dominating things, or one person is sitting there with a guitar, but hasn't sung anything yet, he'll say something like, "Hey, Nancy. Have you got a song or two?" And if Nancy wants to sing, great. If not, there's no rule that says she can't just sit and listen to others.

These "hootenannies" are not staged and programmed events like some of the staged "hootenannies" in the 1960s, they are like the ones prior to the "folk revival" in which singers and musicians got together to sing and play for each other and just jam. And other people would come just to listen and enjoy. A party, where, instead of getting drunk and falling down a lot, people sing for each other. For fun!

That's what I would call a "folk experience."

Nobody's keeping you from throwing a hootenanny, Conrad. Except your apparent reluctance to lift your fanny out of your recliner.

There is no reason whatsoever for not presenting a concert by a professional singer of folk songs and ballads in a concert hall, charging people admission to the concert, paying the singer, and seeing to it that those who organized the concert also get paid for their endeavor. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a professional singer choosing to sing traditional folk songs and ballads rather than operatic arias and Schubert lied, or popular music, or Broadway show tunes, or Swiss yodeling, or Tuvan throat-singing.

These, too, are what I would consider "folk experiences," since folk music is an integral and essential part of them.

Why do you begrudge professional singers who chose to sing folk songs? If you don't like it, you don't have to go to their performances.

But, I might add, MOST people I know of who became singers of folk songs, either professionally or just for fun, were initially inspired to do so by hearing professional singers such as Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Harry Belafonte, The Kingston Trio, et al   THEY were the ones who created the interest in and the audiences for folk music back in the 1950s and that's why there are so many people interested in folk music today. And these folks were, in turn, inspired to do what they do by hearing other singers, probably most of whom where professionals.

So, Conrad, instead of calling them "greedy" and "mercenary," IF you really are concerned about increasing interest in folk music at all, you should be profoundly grateful to them—and to those professional singers who continue to promulgate ever wider interest in traditional folk music.

It's out there, Conrad. And a great deal of it is free. But don't complain if no one walks into your house and presents it to you on a silver platter just because you're too indolent to get up out of your lounge chair.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:02 PM

Churches are non profit.

Hmm.. there's a whole can of worms there, probably best left unopened.

If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would?

How much of your money do you share with the exploited volunteers? Or are you partly instrumental in their exploitation?

Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid?

We aren't stupid enough to miss the fact that you exploit them too. Or doesn't it count if you call it 'art' and 'accept donations'?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM

Churches are non profit. Professional folk musicians and organizers are all about profit. hence if you volunteer you are really being abused and may be really stupid. Should we condone people just liking abuse>

If you are making money why the hell not share it as most would?

Even if it is a small ammount. No they act like gods and get their servants. WRONG

Come on folks you simply cant accept that musicians use volunteers to make money, organizers too -= are you really that stupid?
Non profits are absolutely different. Non-profit know what I mean.]

You act as if organizers of festivals are non profits. Go figure.

I knew a bunch of them and profit was everything.

And no risk once the rainy day fund is set up.

Come on exploitation is exploitation for financial gain. It needs to end.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM

I've tried, and I've tried and I've tried....but Heck, I can't come up with one single solitary musicians name who could be called a "Greedy Professional"
Not here in the UK anyway... Most are on (or below) the minimum wage.
And that includes me.
There is a well known phrase we use here in England...I'll let you re-arrange it.
Life Get A Don't You Why.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM

Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market.

You really have no grasp on reality at all, do you? The reason bands provide free downloads is to attract audiences to their live gigs, where they get paid, sell CDs and merchandise, and all the other things you claim to despise.

For folk musicians, the paid gigs are at festivals. If they do those for free, where is this "market" you claim will be freed up?

Volunteers are used, not to make money, but because without them most festivals would not be financially viable. You may not care about that, but in the real world that would mean the festival would not happen. Volunteers are happy to give their time to make sure it does, because they value the music. For some, it may be the only way they can afford to attend, but for most it is a way to feel part of the festival and know they have made a contribution. What right have you to sneer at them for that?

As for all those people who happily hand over their money, have a great time, and come back to rave on Mudcat about how wonderful it was, apparently they have been "manipulated".

Go back to your cars and leave folk music to people who appreciate it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

"Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse."

Churches, Youth Organizations, Community Groups, Museums, Hospitals, Schools..but other than that and several others, you're probably right.
Maybe you should contact the President about this concern. He seems to think Volunteerism is a good, healthy thing. Some say he actually encourages it. If you put all your attention on a 'Stamp Out Volunteers' campaign and manage to suceed with it, you'd be doing a great service to people who are misguided enough to feel good about offering their time in a productive way to work with others and accomplish something.
Just think of all the people with limited physical stamina and no other social outlet! You could help them never leave their house again..and they could die happily un-useful and lonely. Wow, that would be a great service, Conrad.

After you're rid of those pesky helpers, maybe you could branch out and eliminate ALL Good Deed Doers.
Boy howdy, wouldn't that pretty-up the world nicely?!

**
I'd like a little clarity about 'ordinary people'
Earlier, you seemed to be saying that these Ordinary People make better, more wholesome music than Musicians.

When you say 'ordinary people', do you use the term the same way most of us would use 'non-musician'?
If so, are you saying that you believe non-musicians make better music than musicians?

Or do you mean that those of us who are non-professionals are more ordinary than the ones who get paid?


Thanks,
I'll go back to lurking now.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM

Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions.

Well - there goes the neighbourhood...

And there goes me - tired of all this bullshit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:09 AM

Why do people in far away countries NEED to hear your music?
Nothing wrong with it but not a requirement.

I am promoting a plan but it is not a BUSINESS plan. It is a plan to do without business as much as possible.

I am not advocating that you give away anything. I would consider selling cds to be private rather than public.

I would say that you have the best chance in business to perform locally for free wherever you can. Read the articles on bands providing free downloads, a very popular model these day, to open up their market.

I have several day jobs! Again nothing wrong with working but the domination of venues by greedy professionals and others in the festival food chain should stop.

Volunteers are being used to make money. Enough said. No other industry practices such abuse. Folk musicians should come clean and either share proceeds no matter how small or stop using volunteers.

Easy! Just go to an all volunteer folk world.

Barn raisings. Look into the very successful custom.

We have to trust the tradition to grow which it cant do until we peel off all the capitalistic accretions which are keeping it limited.

Yes there are people who can not find the money to attend. Why keep them from the music?

Cultural grants too are particularly stupid. I keep hearing that pro bands who are in music for a business get state and local grants. Somehow its always a well known professional performer getting the subsidized concert assistance.

Folks this money is taken from funds needed drastically these days by the unemployed, homeless and needy. I am seeing it go to bands made up of musicians all of whom have excellent well paying day jobs! Often they aren't playing folk music at all but rather their own contemporary compositions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM

It's great to see that hippiedom isn't as yet completely dead!
But, Conrad, worthy though your intentions maybe, It will never work as a business plan!
I've just spent nearly a £1000 making my first solo CD. Mainly to let people far and wide hear my music.
People in different countries to which I can not possibly visit personally.
In your world you would expect me to just give them away, would you?
Sorry Pal...I'm on a pension. I don't ever expect to make a profit, but I can't afford to just give them away.
Like others, I also play at events for free, amongst friends, etc. I have no problem about that, but I resent someone like you telling me that that is the only way to spread my music. Errant nonsense.
How do you pay your bills may I ask?
Do you live in a hovel somewhere? No council tax? No use of Water , Gas, Electricity? You generate no waste or rubbish that your council has to collect on a weekly basis?
Clever man if you can do that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:58 AM

Volunteers are just that - no one is press-ganging them into doing it. Most volunteers are in fact paid in kind, in the form of free tickets, so they are being rewarded in a way which they find acceptable.

Likewise the audiences - just how are they being "manipulated"? No one is forcing them to go, if they don't like the prices or the entertainment they can choose not to go. Or they could volunteer and get in free.

I agree with Will, at the very least produce some evidence, or at least a logical argument, to support your claims. Unless you can do so, I will remain unconvinced both by your criticism of commercial festivals or your promotion of free ones. While you're about it, please explain how your free festival is to be funded - or do you really believe that you can find businesses and public bodies willing to donate everything you need?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 07:47 AM

Ok lots to scroll through.....re state the questions many thanks
Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:59 AM

Which of course raised the cost of my bier.

Well, having paid for your bier, Conrad, perhaps you could lie down on it for a quiet rest and give us all a bit of piece.

After answering some of the interesting questions put to you which you appear to have ignored.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM

I do not berate volunteers I criticize the musicians for tolerating a system that exploits them for profit taking. What other industry gets away with such nonsense?

Yes amplification also costs money glad you noticed helping to make the music less accessible. It just makes things louder and ruins the folk experience. If you can cram more people into a session then you make more money thats why its there not for quality.

Folk music is no longer the same when forced into large venues that degrade its basic qualtities simply to make money. That people go is not relevant they are being manipulated. Sometimes you have a responsibility to the music that is more important than satisfying or entertaining people.

The value of the music is found in much more than the notes heard but in the cultural setting associated with the music and big festival venues ruin this for profit taking. They exploit volunteers and this is all supported by professionals.

It would be refreshing to see a movement "folk musicians against exploitation of volunteers" Lets see profit sharing and or a decent wage.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 04:00 AM

Conrad, at the risk of you repeating the same hackneyed phrases with which you've peppered this thread, it seems to me that you're making statements supporting things which you seem to think are absolutes - but there's no logic or reasoning for the existence of these absolutes in the first place.

Examples:

Folk festivals should be free so that more people can entertain and be entertained. Why? There's no evidence that I can see that people are prevented from playing or listening to folk music because of the cost of festivals, or because they have to pay to buy some food and drink. There are plenty of free or low-cost opportunities to enjoy and play folk music outside a festival environment.

For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. These "intimate settings" have never gone away - folk clubs, singarounds, sessions - they're all around us. And if they were less in evidence with the progression of time and social choice, why is it a given that they should be forced back into those settings? There's space for both small and large settings, each with its own character.

Professional musicians are ok and have a role but it should be on the edges and not in the center. But for many of us who play this sort of music and participate in the folk community, the distinction between "professional", "semi-professional" and "amateur" is as blurred as hell. I and many of my musical colleagues get bookings at clubs from time to time, and also pop along regularly to participate in sessions and singarounds and club floor spots. The comparatively small amount of cash we get for a club or other booking (small when compared to some other forms of music) is a little compensation which pays for the expenses of doing the gig - travel, food, drink, etc.

However, your basic premise - which I don't understand and for which I see no evidence - is that folk music, however you define it (and let's not start that here!) is somehow to be considered as different and separate from other sorts of music, and to be treated separately and specially. Why? It's one form of music among many. I have friends who live for 1950s rock'n roll - go to local clubs and jive the night away. That's their wellspring. Try applying everything you've said about folk music to that kind of music - and see the absurdity of the position you've taken. The other absurd supposition is that folk music - a fairly organic and natural kind of music - should be forced into a particular kind of social organisation or environment which suits you by a set of rules of your own making.

Basically, you're putting up Aunt Sallys and refusing to let them be knocked down. Just remember, Conrad, that music and the playing of music should never be the subject of a social or polemical diktat. It's for fun, pleasure, friendship, entertainment - music for the soul, not the social engineer.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:55 AM

TO Guest Niney, I have to disagree with your reading. As I interpret it, Conrad seems to object to "paid" festivals on principle - he seems to think they take away from the essence of folk music (although taking it in context with his other threads, my own conclusion is that he just objects to paying for anything, whether that's music or beer).

He may have a point, although the existence of large festivals with professional performers does not detract in any way from the existence of smaller, more intimate (and often free) folk events. However the larger festivals are able to present a greater range and higher quality of music, in a safer and more comfortable environment. I think they do more to bring folk music to more people than the sort of event Conrad advocates.

It is perfectly possible to hold a festival of the sort that he prefers, and even to make it free to visitors. However it cannot be done at no cost without freeloading off others' generosity, or ignoring health and safety, insurance, licensing and similar considerations. That's not sustainable as a model for festivals in general.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM

In the Irish tradition there are many waltzes with words that many people dance to. Obviously you havent a clue.

Apparently I haven't. I've not come across any of these sung waltzes myself, but I'll take your word for it. However, based on the observation that the number of singers working the folk dance circuit here is precisely zero, my conclusion is that in the UK the demand for folk dances is for bands.

Of course, singers may also play in bands, and may even sing songs for some dances. This has to be done sparingly, because the tradition here is to have someone to call the dances, which can't be done while someone is singing.

My point is that at most festivals most of the performers are singers, not dance band musicians. The market for singers is a different one. Performing at festivals won't generate a lot of "private" work for them (unless you include folk clubs in this category).

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:22 PM

My apologies, I might have misunderstood you about volunteers there, but earlier you seemed to be berated them for not demanding their share of the proceeds.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM

Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services.

They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today.

But Conrad, the volunteers are donating their services.

The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work.

It costs money, and it makes stuff louder for more people to hear.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:09 PM

Yes we need to get all of those in the financial food chain to donate their services.

They need to be won over to the cause just like the volunteers that seem so indispensable today.

Liberate everyone and things will grow much faster.

For most of its existence folk music has occurred in small groups, intimate settings. We need to get back to that. The only thing that amplification does is to provide more money for less work.

If festival organizers cared about traditional presentation then they would make stages smaller which can be done. But they dont. The concern is with profit not tradition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:37 PM

Actually, this thread has already thrown up some brilliant contributions from people such as Don, go read them ... :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM

There was recently a "Toowoomba Acoustic" event in the nearby park - sadly ALL the music was amplified, and only 'electric guitars' were seen, no UNAMPLIFIED ACOUSTIC music at all .... no piano accordions, flutes, banjos, etc. BUT the Bagpipes were there! Haha no amps need for them!

Btw, I know of someone who fell asleep at a Battlefield Band gig - with amplified bagpipes at a 'Folk Music event' .... :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:33 PM

What good is amplification. It totally destroys the atmosphere of a folk experience.

That's entirely a matter of opinion, Conrad. Some would have it that amplification just makes it louder, facilitating larger audiences and expanding the market as you would appear to desire, but what do I know?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:31 PM

Maybe what we need is an "Open Mic Fest" where every musican-wantabee and few ol' real musicans whos wives told them to get lost fir the day can get together...

No porta-potties unless the porta-potti guy donated 'um fri free... No rent 'cause Conrad is gonna find some ol' dude with some acerage who will allow it to be used for wahtever just so he can check out the young females that come to it... Free food, of coures, will donated by the Free Food Foundation as soon as there is one... Details...

What else??? Oh yeah, no permits because they cost money and only get the government checkin' yer stuff out...

Me thinks that it must be very nice (at times) to be Conrad... I mean, a little glue in the bag... Stick yer head in and get a big ol' sniff and life is real good fir about 2 minutes and then it's back for more glue... From the Free Glue Foundation, of course...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM

Well, Conrad hasn't exceeded his one-thread-a-day quota of thread initiations, so I can't find a good reason to close or delete this thread.
If you don't like his threads, don't post.
-Joe-