The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:41 AM

FT: Agreed. I'll often piss in a bush when hill-walking or climbing, which the environment seems to absorb as long as it's just a few of us.

But I've seen the approach path to Scafell Pike in Wasdale after 50 minibuses full of people walking the "Three Peaks Challenge" have passed by in the course of a few hours. It's disgusting. The urine smell. The faeces everywhere, sometimes hidden but often just sitting there. Still smelling rank either way,and close enough to the watercourse to contaminate it.

On top of that there's food waste and litter, as you say. I've helped clear up after several events held by others "doing things informally" and even a smallish gathering can create a tremendous amount of mess...and I'm talking mainly mature adults here, not a gang of irresponsible youngsters.

This guy has no idea.

Mind you, the web site he points to is so naff and badly designed that it's hard to take him seriously anyway. Love it that the caption by the picture of the piper at the top of the page says "The musician here is probably not playing for money" while the caption on the *identical* picture in a side-bar next to the "Artists" secton says "This piper is most likely a professional". Schizoid or what?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:05 PM

Up to about 100, we can still call it a 'party'- when it gets to a 1,000, it's a 'festival' of sorts.

The ideas about toilets 'use a bush' etc, sadly reveal a distinct lack of coping with modern society - there are so many health issues with this. If you have ever walked past a park where the drunks staggering out of pubs up the road regularly piss in the bushes on their way home, you will notice the smell. You might get lucky and not actually get charged for encouraging people to behave in this way, but should you keep trying to behave in this way, you may get served with a court injunction by the authorities, and blatantly ignoring this will get you in Court, a fine at least, or even a few days in the cooler! And you won't want that sort of 'publicity'! It will only drive people away!

"Yes small scale good start just expand it."

Sadly, you can not understand matters of 'scaling' to make such a glib statement. As numbers increase, things like 'piss in a bush' become uncontrollable, unmanageable, and a total nightmare. As size increases, the types of problems and the types of solutions necessary change - and so does the expense, especially the expense of cleaning up the mess afterwards. People in large crowds do NOT behave in a 'nice way', chucking all rubbish in bins, etc, even when they are sober! There is plenty of documentation available about this sort of experience, and why this idea is total madness. Woodstock, for one ... :-)

Maybe more later ...
:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

"One of my favourite events is organised by someone near here. It takes place in his barn and in local pubs. I don't think guest performers are paid, but I believe some may get accommodation and/or expenses. It attracts maybe 50-100 people"

Where abouts Howard?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM

Conrad

No one is trying to stop you...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:45 AM

It's perfectly possible to organise a small-scale event for friends and acquaintances, and if it's effectively a private party then many of these issues won't apply. However, to me the word "festival" implies a public event and a large-ish audience - obviously there can be no set minimum size, but probably in the hundreds or even thousands.

The food stalls, vendors and craft stands which Conrad finds most objectionable are to me an important part of the festival experience.

One of my favourite events is organised by someone near here. It takes place in his barn and in local pubs. I don't think guest performers are paid, but I believe some may get accommodation and/or expenses. It attracts maybe 50-100 people and it is stretching it to call it a festival. Even without venue hire and performers fees he has to charge a nominal £20 and probably makes a loss on it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM

For food-

Simply post all the food delivery folks in the region with menus and phone numbers. Lots of opportunities for food in most places. Set up a food ordering and delivery location on a corner with the signs.

Same with drink. Most companies will send it in with food. In urban locations post the name and address of the off license or store. Generally there is one in Baltimore in a block or so.

People exist on a daily basis in great numbers without hauling toilets around with them or renting them to take along. Why should festivals have such difficulty? Especially in urban areas.People find a way. Yeah bushes have worked for centuries anyway.

Yes small scale good start just expand it.

If you keep it informally announced anything is possible.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:03 AM

fRied fOlkmusic is what they play inside fRoots tOwers, so I've heard...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: JHW
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM

I used to lay on little 'festival' weekends on the principle 'everything cheap or free'.
(West Burton, Tan Hill, Richmond and the first Robin Hood's Bay, my cue taken from the splendid Maltons of old)
but the folks at Robin Hood's Bay tell me now they hardly dare announce a date as PRS will send them a bill.
(I've deliberately not mentioned names!)
Even when no pays anyone for the music PRS still want their money.
Sorry, no free folk music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:35 AM

"Sign up should be always on a first come-first-serve basis. Simply lay out performance areas with a sign up sheet with a breakdown by hour or half hour performance. If an artist arrives out of the blue they should find a stage at a moment's notice."

Been there, done that, Woodford Festival - all slots filled within 5 mins of the blackboards being open for each session.

I like the minimal amplification idea.

Some good ideas, but otherwise, sadly mostly not practical. Any hint of rain, and my expensive instruments will not be there, might take a tin whistle...

You certainly will have a lack of vendors, goods and food.

Others have already said most of the rest.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM

There are a group of folkies here who have been doing this 'free festival' thing for the past twenty years or more. It's a private party run on an invite only basis organised by a large group of friends and family. Everyone performs, there are no paid acts. There are no fees bar a small contribution to cover basic costs such as sanitation and wood to burn etc. The fact it's been going so long demonstrates that it's perfectly do-able. But there's absolutely no way it could work without tents in the UK!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM

Conrad - we've had all this in a thread of your not so long ago, and the same arguments will, no doubt, crop up again.

The concept of people turning up, making music and then going home already exists in this country at any rate. It's usually small scale and it's called a session or a singaround. They're usually held in pubs, anyone can turn up and listen or play, and no money changes hands anywhere - except across the bar for those that want a drink. If it rains, you're indoors. If you want a pee, the toilet's handy. If you want to sit, there are seats.

Suits me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

I assume by "festival" you mean something bigger than a few friends having a party.

I won't go into the question of whether or not musicians deserve to be paid. Personally I think it's a perfectly valid way of making a living, but that's not the point. Certainly it's possible to find people willing to play for nothing. But there are others involved besides musicians who almost certainly will want paying.

Firstly, unless you own land or know someone willing to offer it for free then you'll have to pay to rent it.

In the UK you'll need an events licence, which costs money, or risk a substantial fine. I would guess that in the US you'll probably need some sort of official permission.

You'll need insurance in case someone gets injured and sues you.

You'll need to provide some facilities, or should people just crap in the hedge? If the audience is any size, and especially outdoors or even in a tent, you'll need some PA if people are to be heard. That needs power and shelter, at least for the musicians.

I can see where you're coming from, and it's a romantic idea. But if you're going to put on such an event in a proper manner, it's going to cost some money. Whether that comes from the audience or some other means is beside the point. The alternative is to just come along, take over someone else's land and do your own thing without thought for anyone else. Is that what you're suggesting?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

maybe call them wage slaves or payment dependent

or walking juke boxes that you need to put money into in order to get music out.....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

Ok simple but here it is

find big field- try your local huge park field, anyplace

go there

bring those who play and sing there

if you want multiple areas spread them out

Start playing and singing

Go home at some point

Let people in

No money has been mentioned

True not all folk musicians worked for free but they were few compared with those who did.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 04:06 PM

I haven't had time to read the entire site, and my comments are based on UK festivals - maybe US ones are different.

I would take issue with the idea that musicians performing at festivals are "employees" - most see themselves as independent contractors. In my experience of UK festivals, where the programme and other commitments permit, most festival guest performers also actively participate in other parts of the festival in addition to their own gigs. Nevertheless it is hard work, and it is nice to have a private area where you can relax and chat to your friends and fellow-performers without having to be on-show to the audience or dealing with their well-meant questions, or simply to mentally prepare for the next performance.

If you have a large enough audience to call it a "festival", you probably need sound reinforcement, if only to balance instruments with different sound levels. Any electric instruments obviously need power.

In the UK, the idea of holding an event in the open air without any shelter is laughable. At the very least, the musicians need protection for their valuable instruments and other equipment - the audience may enjoy wallowing in mud but it's not an option for performers.

The idea that traditional performers always played for free is just not true. Many of them, especially dance musicians, were in high demand and played whenever the opportunity arose, and were paid in cash or in kind. Packie (not Packy) Byrne who you quote is quite right in what he said, and I have played with him in free sessions, but he was also happy to be paid to perform - and why not?

As a visitor to festivals, I enjoy the opportunities to buy instruments, books, CDs etc which otherwise would be difficult to find. Why do you want to replace these with flyers? I can find that on the internet.

Actually there are many small low-budget and low-cost festivals, but even they have to be paid for somehow. Most "free" festivals are actually raising the money through other means or are relying on the generosity (aka freeloading) of others. However most festivals in my experience offer good value for money. If I don't think they do, or don't like what they have to offer, I don't go.

Subject: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

Just came to my attention that I have a brilliant web page imho of course....

Concerning Free Folk music

http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/freemusic/freemusic.html
Freed Folk music

Yes I do challenge the necessity to make folk festivals into shopping malls and limit attendance to those able to pay and by making musicians and storytellers into "employees".

Have fun!

Conrad