Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Origins/ADD: The Dolphin

Phil Edwards 17 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM
Les from Hull 17 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Dave Bishop 17 Sep 10 - 01:40 PM
Phil Edwards 17 Sep 10 - 02:13 PM
terrier 17 Sep 10 - 06:07 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Sep 10 - 06:21 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM
Lighter 18 Sep 10 - 07:45 AM
Joe Offer 18 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM
terrier 18 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 10 - 10:31 AM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 10 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Sep 10 - 10:47 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 10 - 04:38 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 10 - 04:40 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM
Richard Mellish 18 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM
Lighter 18 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 10 - 07:51 PM
Phil Edwards 20 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Sep 10 - 07:13 PM
Dave Sutherland 21 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM
Phil Edwards 27 Sep 10 - 04:42 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 10 - 08:19 PM
Phil Edwards 28 Sep 10 - 03:41 AM
Matthew Edwards 28 Sep 10 - 06:24 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 10 - 10:23 AM
Phil Edwards 28 Sep 10 - 11:34 AM
Gibb Sahib 23 Aug 12 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,hg (9 Feb 15) 22 Feb 15 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,Musketypoos (9 Feb 2015) 22 Feb 15 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,Steve Gardham (9 Feb 2015) 22 Feb 15 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,Sean Laffey 07 Feb 17 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,Sean Laffey 07 Feb 17 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Sean Laffey 07 Feb 17 - 08:18 PM
Lighter 08 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Feb 17 - 06:36 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Feb 17 - 06:41 PM
doc.tom 09 Feb 17 - 11:13 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM

I was going to ask a question about a line in a song I know as "the Dolphin", but when I look I can't find it anywhere. It begins

Our ship she lay at anchor,
In Liverpool Dock she lay
Awaiting for fresh orders
And our anchor for to weigh
Bound down for the coast of Africa,
Our orders did run so,
O we're going to sink and destroy, my boys,
No matter where we go.

They promptly meet "a tall lofty ship" which asks them from whence they came...

O we've just come down from Liverpool town
And the Dolphin is our name.

Terrific song, sung to great effect by Tony Capstick (on ...Does a turn) and by Dave (at the Beech). Does anyone know any more about it, or why I can't find it anywhere?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM

this 'un?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,Dave Bishop
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 01:40 PM

Hi Pip,

I learned my version from Ewan MacColl. It was on the first folk LP that I ever bought: 'A Sailor's Garland' by Ewan MacColl & A.L. Lloyd, XTRA 5013, 1966. Ewan recorded 'The Dolphin' it from Sam Larner, of Winterton, Norfolk, who, in turn, learned it from his shipmate, 'Old Larpin' (James Sutton). Sutton was from an earlier generation than Sam and also from Winterton.

Sam can be heard singing the song on the recording, 'Now is the Time for Fishing' collected and edited by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. This was originally issued by Folkways, in the 1960s, in the US, but Topic released a version of it in 1999 (Topic TSCD511). Ewan and Peggy's note to the song says that "[it is] known under several aliases as 'The Bold Pirate', 'The Pirate Song', 'The Irish Captain' and 'The London Man o' War', it has been collected from singers in Sussex, Norfolk, Dorset, Somerset and Nova Scotia."

I hope that this helps.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 02:13 PM

Many thanks, Dave and Les. If I get a moment I might LYR ADD the Dolphin - it's a nice example of the folk process: it's instantly recognisable as basically the same song as Warlike Seamen (Mainly Norfolk), even though the two hardly have a single line in common.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: terrier
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:07 PM

I THINK it's in the Penguin book of English Folk Songs, if anyone has a copy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM

I'm pretty sure I contributed recently to thread on the history of this series of songs and if I've got the right one the captain who wrote it c1740 (Sumarez) his family still live in the same house on one of the Channel Islands. Featured on TV recently too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:21 PM

"the captain who wrote it c1740 !
Hmmm?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM

Terrier - it's not in Classic English Folk Songs; "Rounding the Horn" ("The gallant frigate Amphitrite...") is in CEFS, but that's a different song.

Steve - which thread? The Dolphin as I know it - James Sutton's Dolphin, I suppose we should say - isn't in the DT or, as far as I can see, anywhere else. (Although I haven't got Boxing the Compass, which would be the obvious place to look.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:45 AM

It's in Seeger & MacColl's "Singing Island."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:50 AM

Hi, Pip-
I can't find The Dolphin - can you post it in this thread?
Thanks.
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: terrier
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:29 AM

You're right PR, I've just checked my copy of the Penguin book and it's not there. So now I've no idea where I learnt it from. I can post the version I sing if anyone wants it, but I've no info or history on the song. Could it possibly be an early Bert Lloyd vinyl?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 10:31 AM

On another thread (above), Dave Bishop wrote:

[The Dolphin is on] 'A Sailor's Garland' by Ewan MacColl & A.L. Lloyd, XTRA 5013, 1966. Ewan learned 'The Dolphin' from Sam Larner, of Winterton, Norfolk, who, in turn, learned it from his shipmate, 'Old Larpin' (James Sutton). Sutton was from an earlier generation than Sam and also from Winterton.

Sam can be heard singing the song on the recording, 'Now is the Time for Fishing' collected and edited by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. This was originally issued by Folkways, in the 1960s, in the US, but Topic released a version of it in 1999 (Topic TSCD511). Ewan and Peggy's note to the song says that "[it is] known under several aliases as 'The Bold Pirate', 'The Pirate Song', 'The Irish Captain' and 'The London Man o' War', it has been collected from singers in Sussex, Norfolk, Dorset, Somerset and Nova Scotia."


However, The Dolphin isn't in the DT - or anywhere else online, as far as I can tell. It's basically the same song as Warlike Seamen (DT / Mainly Norfolk) but with different phrasing in every single verse - the folk process at work!

So here it is, transcribed from Tony Capstick's recording.

THE DOLPHIN

Our ship she lay in harbour
In Liverpool Dock she lay
Awaiting for fresh orders
And our anchor for to weigh
Bound down for the coast of Africa
Our orders did run so
O we're going to sink and destroy, me boys,
No matter where we go.

Well, we had not been sailing
Scarce fifty leagues and more
When we espied a tall lofty ship
Come down on us she bore
O she hailed us in French colours
And she asked us from whence we came
O we've just come down from Liverpool town
And the Dolphin is our name.

"O are you a man of war, sir?
Pray tell me what you be."
"I am no man of war, sir,
But a pirate ship you see,
O come heave up your fore and your main yards
And let your ship come to
For our tackle's overhauled and our boats are all lowered,
Or else we will sink you."

O our captain stood on the quarterdeck
He was brave and fearless too.
"It's three to one against us," he cried
All to our jovial crew
And if it hadn't been for my younger brother
O this battle would never have been tried,
But let every man stand true to his guns
And we'll give to them a broadside.

Now broadside to broadside,
Which caused us all to wonder
For to see them lofty tall ship's masts
Come rattling down like thunder
O we shot them from our quarterdeck
Until they could no longer stay
O our guns being smart and we played the best part
And we showed them Liverpool play.

Now that lofty tall ship was taken
And in Liverpool Dock was moored
We fired shots with our own sweethearts
And them fancy girls on shore
O we lowered down the French colours
And we hoisted the red, white and blue
And we'll drink a success to the Dolphin
And all of her jovial crew.

    Threads combined - multiple threads on one song cause confusion and duplication, especially when both are active at the same time.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 10:32 AM

Terrier - see Dave Bishop's post upthread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 10:42 AM

LYR ADD now posted.

It makes quite interesting reading, I think. It looks earlier than Warlike Seamen - by which I mean that if one of them had to be a garbled version of the other, the direction of garbling would definitely be Dolphin to WS rather than vice versa. That said, the Dolphin looks pretty garbled in parts - some of the nautical terminology looks very hazy! The other striking thing about the Dolphin, which points to fairly long immersion in oral tradition, is the heavy use of stock phrases - "tall lofty ship", "brave and fearless too", "our jovial crew", "let every man stand true to his guns" etc.

My original question, incidentally, was about the fourth verse, which seems to have dropped out of the song by the time it turned into Warlike Seamen -

O our captain stood on the quarterdeck
He was brave and fearless too.
"It's three to one against us," he cried
All to our jovial crew
And if it hadn't been for my younger brother
O this battle would never have been tried,
But let every man stand true to his guns
And we'll give to them a broadside.

I was just wondering, what's the narrator's younger brother got to do with anything? All very odd!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: ADD Version: The Dolphin (Larner)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 10:47 AM

Sam Larner's version
Jim Caroll

THE DOLPHIN

Our ship she laid in harbour, in Liverpool docks she lay,
Awaiting for fresh orders and her anchor for to weigh
Bound out for the coast of Africa our orders did run so:
We're going to sink and destroy me boys, no matter where we go.

We had not been sailing scarce fifty leagues or more,
For there we spied a lofty ship and down on us he bore;
He hailed us in French colours, he asked us where and whence we came
"We just came down from Liverpool town and The Dolphin is our name."

"Are you a man-of-war, sir? Pray tell me what you be."
"I am no man-of-war, sir, but a pirate ship you see.
Come heave up your fore and main yards and let your ship come to,
For our tackles are overhauled and our boats are all lowered, or else we will sink you."

Now our Captain he stood on the quarter-deck, he was brave and fearless too.
"It's three to one against us," he cried unto his crew;
"If it hadn't have been for my younger brother, this battle would never have been tried.
Let every man stand true to his guns and we'll give to them a broadside."

Now broadside to broadside which caused us all to wonder,
To see that lofty tall ship's mast come rattling down like thunder;
We shot them from our quarter-deck until they could no longer stay,
Our guns being smart and we played a fine part and showed them Liverpool play.

Now this large tall ship was taken and in Liverpool docks was moored,
We fired shots with our own sweethearts and the fancy girls ashore;
We lowered down the French colours, we hoisted the red, white and blue,
We drink success to The Dolphin and all her jovial crew.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:38 PM

Rather than state the original (just to appease Jim) I'll say the earliest extant version refers to the ship 'Nottingham' Capt Saumarez, and the encounter/skirmish took place in The War of Jenkin's Ear in 1746, so my memory isn't way out from the previous posting. The family who still live on Guernsey and featured in a recent episode of 'Antiques Road Show' claim to have documents that indicate that Phil Saumarez wrote the ballad. The engagement between the 'Mars' and the 'Nottingham' is well documented 11 Oct 1746 and there are even paintings in the National Maritime Museum. There is a detailed account of it along with the painting on their website.

The ballad was later adapted to the exploits of many other ships by broadside hacks wanting to turn a quick shilling so we have versions referring to The Wasp, The London, The Dolphin, The Britannia, and even The Victory. The French ship also becomes other vessels such as The De La Marque, engaged by the London. No point in trying to sell a ballad about the Nottingham in 1780 when the ship no longer exists and has gone out of recent memory and the Dolphin or London are the current glamour boys.

Interestingly while the names of the ships vary considerably many versions retain some garbled form of the captain's name, Saumarez, (Somerswell/Summers/Summerville) naturally anglicised.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:40 PM

Pip,
Why have you started a new thread for this when there is already one running? It's not a criticism, just curious.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

Sorry.
Missed out 'The Lion' man-o'-war.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 05:09 PM

"just to appease Jim"
You don't have to appease me Steve - just present your evidence or stop decalering your statememts as fact.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM

I have been known to sing this, and like Pip have wondered what on earth the "younger brother" has to do with it.

Another anomaly in the "Dolphin" version is that a ship having orders "to sink and destroy" is sailing from the commercial port of Liverpool, not from a naval base. (The captain in the "Warlike Seamen" version also claims to have sailed from Liverpool but is apparently lying, as verse 1 has the ship lying at Spithead.)

I have myself folk processed (at least) one word. I don't know what colours a French ship would have carried in the 1700s, but latterly they would gave been red, white and blue. I therefore sing "We've hoisted our red white and blue.

Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

Steve - just being (excessively) tidy-minded; this is the "origins" thread, that's the "lyrics added" thread. Pedantic to a fault, that's me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

...although I'm clearly not very good at reading requests from moderators (Joe specifically suggested I posted the lyrics in this thread). Never mind.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

The French flag in the 1700s was white with gold fleur-de-lis.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:51 PM

When the broadside hacks get hold of a song and start trying to update them to sound more contemporary they aren't too fussy about correlating the info, hence the jumble of information in the later versions, particularly pertaining to the Dolphin and the London.

I'm no maritime expert so this is just my take on the Liverpool mentions. As far as I can make out when two ships meet and exchange info they ask where each has come from. Though Liverpool wasn't a naval base the navy ships must have used the port a lot for things like supplies especially when cruising in the Irish Sea. So the 'London' man of war in the many broadsides could easily reply 'Liverpool' in answer to 'where and whence we came'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM

The family who still live on Guernsey and featured in a recent episode of 'Antiques Road Show' claim to have documents that indicate that Phil Saumarez wrote the ballad.

The question is, did he have a younger brother?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 10 - 07:13 PM

Not following your line of thought here, Pip, but it is rather late for me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 03:08 AM

I too learned it from "A Sailor's Garland" and similarly I have always wondered about the significance of the younger brother in the song. I do hope that someone can help here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM

Earlier versions like 'The Wasp' and 'The Nottingham' don't have this verse but it's still possible to see its evolution through several other texts.

'Then who so should be master that quickly shall be tried' (London ship) (from Somerset version)

'If this had been mine own brother the battle should have been tried'
(Lion ship) (Terry's Sea Songs and Ballads 1890)

'Whichever shall be master the truth shall soon be tried' (London ship but mentions Nottingham) (Hants 1905)

'If it had been my own brother, this battle it would have been tried'
(Dolphin ship) (NE Scotland c1906)

'If it had not been for my own brother this battle would never've been tried' (Dolphin ship) (Suffolk 1910)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 04:42 PM

So a line meaning "[even] if it were my own brother the battle would [still] have been tried" appears - possibly as a new addition, possibly as a garbled rendering of a non-brother-related line - and then gets garbled in turn into "if it were not for my own brother the battle would not have been tried". I can believe that - and I prefer it to the idea of poring over the Saumarez family tree in an attempt to identify the original younger brother!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 10 - 08:19 PM

You wouldn't find it in the Saumarez family tree because the 'Nottingham' version didn't have it, so it must have been included later, possibly from another similar sea fight ballad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 03:41 AM

Just to be clear, I was making a joke about the persistent idea that every song (in the version we know) represents a True Story, which we can identify if we try hard enough. The way stories and their meanings shift as words get lost and replaced - the 'brother' line is a classic example - seems to be very hard for people to get to grips with. Trying to nail down the details of a traditional ballad to a specific historical event is very often quixotic if not daft, and trying to do this on the basis of a late version of a song is particularly daft. But it doesn't stop people trying!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 06:24 AM

I agree with Pip that "trying to nail down the details of a traditional ballad to a specific historical event is very often quixotic". To see just how daft this gets you only have to glance at the (re)current thread on Peggy Gordon and 'Ingo' to see how often people still prefer to ignore Malcolm Douglas's rather pained reasonableness and make completely unsubstantiated assertions.

However in the case of the song 'The Dolphin' while there have been many naval ships of that name, some of which may have had a connection to Liverpool and some of which captured privateers or French men of war I have only been able to find one example of a ship meeting all these conditions. This is Their Majesties Ship the Dolphin, frigate, stationed to cruise in Irish waters in the 1690's to protect English shipping from French attacks during the War of the Grand Alliance. Some actions of the Dolphin were reported in the London Gazette at the time, and from 1695 also in other contemporary newspapers. Under her captains Thomas Kercher, and later Thomas Stepney, she took part in several successful actions against French privateers and men of war. On at least one occasion she took her prize into Liverpool; the Post Boy and Historical Account for September 5 1695 reported that;-

"They write from Leverpool, that the Dolphin Frigat hath taken and sent into that port, a French Caper of 8 Guns and 38 Men."

This very minor event may hardly seem worth inspiring a song; and there some are other discrepancies. The song mentions Liverpool dock, but these events predate the construction of the first Liverpool dock in 1715. The song also mentions the 'coast of Africa', but Liverpool's notorious "African" or slave trade didn't start until the early 18th century.There are indeed some early ballads describing actions betweeen Bristol letter of marque ships and Algerine ships off the North African coast in the early to mid seventeenth century, but nothing to confirm any Liverpool involvement.

I can't prove that the song 'The Dolphin' is definitely about the naval frigate the Dolphin of the Irish squadron in 1694/1695; it is quite plausible that the Dolphin's name should be a later interpolation in the ballad composed by Captain Philip Saumarez.

The lines that really do puzzle me in the song are 'we're going to sink and destroy'; this is a very modern sentiment, and entirely out of character with the enlightened self-interest of most ordinary seamen who always wanted to capture the enemy intact so as to share the resulting bounty of prize money.

I'm sorry if anyone finds these efforts "particularly daft"; I think the stories behind the songs are compelling and interesting, even when the songs aren't historically accurate. The songs are windows onto history, though the glass may be a bit obscure.

Matthew


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 10:23 AM

Well put, Matthew.
It is indeed quite possible/plausible that Phil Saumarez reworked an earlier song. His song is only the earliest extant version, which certainly doesn't exclude earlier versions.
However, in my experiencen in the use of later ship names in versions the actual ships mentioned (and we can presume they actually refer to contemporary vessels) need not have been involved in anything like a similar skirmish. Their name has been included in a new version simply because that vessel has been in the public consciousness recently and any audience can relate to it more readily. This is one of the ploys used by the hacks who rewrote these songs for sale on penny sheets in the streets. Of course this alteration could also happen for other reasons. Jim Bloggs decided to alter his version to 'The Lion' because his brother had just come home from serving on her, full of stories of daring exploits. What we have in the numerous related songs in this case is the constant interaction between print and oral tradition. The only problem this presents to wouldbe researchers and historians is they often overlook the print side of the matter.
BTW I don't find any of your, or any other researcher's, efforts daft at all. It's all about increasing knowledge. I frequently have disagreements with other researchers on this forum, but it all contributes to the increasing wealth of knowledge. The biggest blows to that are when wonderfully knowledgeable people like Malcolm and Bruce pop their clogs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 11:34 AM

I don't find any of your, or any other researcher's, efforts daft at all

Nor do I, I hasten to add - tracking down the bits of social history that have fed into the history of songs is always interesting & instructive. What I do think is daft is the assumption that every line in a song must have a real-world antecedent, so that if only we had good enough baptismal records we could find the real Henry Martin and the real Patrick Spens. I remember Dick Miles asking on here some time ago, Who put the parrot in the Outlandish Knight? We'll never know, any more than we'll know who gave the captain of the Dolphin a younger brother.

The mission of the Dolphin does seem a bit confused - to the point where it's not entirely clear that it's the French ship which is claiming to be a pirate. Which for me strengthens the impression that the song as we have it is a mutated version of a modified form of a variation on an earlier song - although there is an actual Dolphin somewhere in there!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 03:14 AM

A fragment of a variant of this comes in Whall's shanty collection under the heading "Shakings."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,hg (9 Feb 15)
Date: 22 Feb 15 - 12:07 AM

ask Phil what chords he plays


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,Musketypoos (9 Feb 2015)
Date: 22 Feb 15 - 12:07 AM

Of course, Tony Capstick used to give the background to the song. He used to tell us about The Dolphin, a pub in Rotherham where they used to have strippers on a Sunday lunch.

Still miss the little bugger.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham (9 Feb 2015)
Date: 22 Feb 15 - 12:09 AM

Whilst you're unlikely to find the real Patrick Spence if he ever existed, Henry Martin was very real and is well documented. He was of course Andrew Barton the famous Scots pirate. There are plenty of intermediate versions demonstrating how his name evolved from one to the other.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,Sean Laffey
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:57 PM

Hi Folks.

Back in 1994 I was living in Guernsey, singing with the shanty group Jenkins Ear. I met with Peter Saumarez who was the current incumbent at Saumarez Hall. He showed me a manuscript of the song Nottingham and Mars. It had a florid Victorian piano accompaniment, and from memory it was undated.

Peter was proud of his ancestor Philip Sausamarez, his involvement in the voyage of the Centurion and the War of Jenkins Ear (after which our shanty group was named). (He also told me because of the actions of Philip Saumarez, the family held an early the franchise for Naval Uniforms and that is why the Royal Nay use the family's particular blue.. Navy Blue).

I took a copy of the manuscript, and left it with our guitar player "Charlie" Torode, who passed away last year (2016). I don't know where the copy now is. However, I did type up the words to Nottingham and Mars. This was taken up by Claire Rakich (a Guernsey girl, now living in London) , it is on her album "Salt on Your Door". The words I typed up are on a 4 inch floppy disc, time to convert it to a USB dongle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,Sean Laffey
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:01 PM

Herea re the words to the Nottingham and Mars

NOTTINGHAM & MARS

October 11, 1746
Broadside ballad - Tune the Dolphin

Come all you jolly sea men bold a tough old tar I am
I'll sing to ye of a fight me boys fought in the Nottingham
Twas by a brisk young Captain, Phil Sausmarez was his name
He was bent with bold intent old England's foes to tame

On the fifth day of October our anchor we did weigh
And from Plymouth sound me boys we shaped our course away
Along the coast of Ireland our orders were to go
The seas to cruise and none to refuse but boldly fight the foe

We had not been out many days before we chanced to spy
A sail all to the westward which drew us up full nigh
She hailed us loud in French me boys and asked from whence we came
From Plymouth Sound we've just come down and the Nottingham's our name.

Are you a man of war they said or a privateer maybe
We are a man of war we said and that ye soon shall see
So haul up smart your courses and let your ship lie to
If you stand out or put about we'll sink you ship and crew

The first broadside we let them have we made the rascals quail
To see the gallant topmast come rattling down like hail
We drove them from their quarters their Captain he frantic grew
He cursed our shot that came so hot from the gunners in our crew.

We fought them seven glasses when to add to all their fears
The shout was raised for borders and we gave three ringing cheers
Down came her flag we took her, her name it was the Mars
The French be damned they never can stand a fight with British Tars

And should you once more enquire our gallant Captain's name
He was young Phil Sausmarez from Guernsey's isle he came
Commanded the brave Nottingham and beat the cowardly Mars
Let every man stand true to his guns and salute those British Tars


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: GUEST,Sean Laffey
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:18 PM

Capstick.. ah the night we spent singing and demolishing a bottle of Jameson, and then the bleary biology practical I barely scraped through the day after. If it hadn't been for the whiskey I might never have heard Tony sing the Dolphin and years later spotted it's resemblance in the Nottingham and Mars.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM

Thanks, Sean!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:36 PM

Sean,
Thanks for posting the ballad, but something is not clear. You first mention the manuscript which is fine, but then at the heading of the ballad text you put 'Broadside Ballad' and 'Tune The Dolphin'. Where is this broadside and when you state 'The Dolphin' do you mean that is one of the tunes which it is sung to nowadays, or are you suggesting that the tune 'The Dolphin' existed in 1746? Just somewhat confused.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:41 PM

Ah,
Just spotted the other thread. You cut and pasted so the statement is not yours.

The ballad was presumably issued as a broadside but I don't know of any that survived. Did you set it to the Dolphin tune?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins/ADD: The Dolphin
From: doc.tom
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 11:13 AM

And here's another version!

LONDON MAN O' WAR
Cpt. Vickery & Cpt.Lewis, Minehead - collected C# 8th & 9th August 1904.

On the twenty-first of August in Plymouth Sound we lay;
Our orders came on board, me boys, we could no longer stay;
'Twas on the coast of Ireland, our orders did run so,
All for to cruise and never refuse to meet with our proud foe.

We had not sailed many a league before we chanced to spy
A long and lofty man o' war come bearing down so nigh;
He hailed us in French, me boys, from whence and where we came;
Our answer was, "From Liverpool, and the London is our name."

"If you're the London man o' war, as I suppose you be,
We are the royal Delamore, and that you soon shall see,
So I pray lay up your courses and let your ship lay to,
Your mainsail stow and your boats hoist out, or else we will sink you."

A broadside then we gave to them; it struck them which such wonder
To see their yards and topmast too come rattling down like thunder;
We drove them from their quarters, they could no longer stay;
Our guns did roar, we played so sure, and we showed them British play.

The next broadside we gave to them, so hot our shot did fly,
We shot away the ensign staff and down their colours lay;
"That's very well, that's very well," our captain he did say,
"Your swords now draw and your pistols load; we'll board without delay."

Now we have taken the Delamore safe into Plymouth Sound,
And when she came to anchor, boys, we fired our guns all round;
Here's a health unto our captain, and all such warlike souls;
To him we'll drink and never flinch; round with the flowing bowl.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 20 April 2:26 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.