BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday-13 Oct 1925

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM

Richard, you mistake the nature of totalitarianism. The first act of any totalitarian government is to abolish or tinker with the electoral system to ensure their continuation in office ~~ let it never be forgotten that Hitler was democratically elected before his appointment as Chancellor, but soon ensured he was never going to get unelected. Mrs Thatcher not only did no such thing; she didn't even think of it for a moment. Why? Because she was not, in any viable definition whatever, a totalitarian. So please don't palter any more with such terms. You only weaken your own arguments.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 06:29 AM

Richard...if there is to be another boom, how do you intend to finance it?
After the punishment we are about to receive(deserved in my opinion, for being so apathetic and politically ignorant), I dont believe the Caps will be able to pull the credit scam all over again.

Sorry, but it's "Groundhog Day"!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

And, Richard, Churchill on the navy was rather delivering a factually descriptive epitome than a 'verdict'? So in what sense did you call it a 'verdict', pray?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 07:56 AM

MGM, that 's exactly what she did - albeit not "first".

And I think you mean "epigram" not "epitome", but it was still a judgment as to the nature of the navy.

Boom? Easy. If land prices rise, those dealing in land must profit. What's more, rents must rise too, so those owning land to rent will profit. Dis-saving from the payers will increase money in circulation. It's economics 101.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:03 AM

No she didn't, or she would have continued in office & still be there.

It was an epitomising epigram. I know the difference between an epigram & an epitome, thanks. & when I said epitome I meant epitome. I don't think it was a 'judgment' either; merely a description.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:07 AM

=== epitome - Definition of epitome at YourDictionary.com
noun pl. epitomes -·mes′. a short statement of the main points of a book, report , incident, etc.; abstract; summary ===

For info and clarification, I was using the word in the "abstract, summary" sense, as defined above.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Stu
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 08:26 AM

"Margaret Thatcher was the best peacetime Prime Minister that this country has seen in the twentieth century without any shadow of a doubt."

No, she wasn't. What she did was pave the way for lesser men to turn the UK from a working society to a consumer society, a country that makes things to one of services industries which, in true capitalist fashion then exported the jobs abroad. She was short-sighted, intellectually unremarkable and this probably contributed to her belligerent nature.

She destroyed the country's manufacturing base and her earlier monetarist policies were deeply damaging, forcing many established and profitable small businesses into bankruptcy by keeping interest rates artificially high - a product of her fundamental misunderstanding of monetarist economics and her devotion to Freidmanesque free market idealogy. This, combined with her pathological hatred of the working class life from which her father tried so hard to transcend was responsible for so much misery in the 1980's. The fact the witless poltroons of all parties that have succeeded her in government haven't had the will to roll back her policies in any meaningful way is a damning indictment of the quality of politicians this country seems to produce these days.

Her real failure though was the fact she suffered from a complete lack of insight or emotional intelligence. Like many Tories, she had an innate distrust of intellectualism (despite her university education - perhaps she had a rough time due to her working-class roots) and this meant she never really understood that the consequences of her actions in a social context. Her real crime was the damage she did to the communities and people that needed protection at that moment and she threw them to the wolves. Selling the social housing stock was one of the greatest social crimes this country has ever endured.

If she hadn't gone to war with Argentina even right-wingers would look back on her poisonous legacy with the less than rose-tinted spectacles they reserve for her and her government.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM

Well, Teri - you probably like his verdict on the traditional values of the Navy then.

Rum, sodomy, and the lash.

He could have added lung cancer with the free tobacco too (paid for, of course, out of taxes).

"Traditional values"???? No Richard he was referring in a discussion defending and supporting Fisher's modernisation proposals to the "Traditions" of the Navy, not the "Traditional Values".

By the bye, tobacco was never free in the RN, and for as long as "income tax" has existed the officers and men of the Royal Navy have had their contributions deducted at source.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM

Jack.....Surely you dont think our heavy industry could have remained competitive if Mrs Thatcher had not existed? You dont seem to have a clue about how global capitalism works.

That is the trouble with the "liberal" left, they start to half believe their own propaganda.

Unfortunately you cant have it every way, change is going to hurt not just the rich.
Teribus is right, if you want to retain yopur little bag of swag, just keep voting capitalist and continue to pretend you care about the underclass. If you want your system to be run efficiently get a leader like Mrs T, who will keep it going as long as it is sustainable,(not long in our case)

As far as Mrs'Ts political demise is concerned, it seemed to me to be mainly the result of a sustained campaign by the "liberal" media.

With Thatcher in power and Labour in opposition, there would certainly have been no involvement in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 12:23 PM

The best 20th century peace time prime minister was without doubt Clement Atlee and his cabinet had a few heroes in it too.
Thatcher's policies have never been reversed? Well for a start there's the pole tax, reversed by her own side.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 12:29 PM

If you want your system to be run efficiently get a leader like Mrs T...

Or, perhaps, Benito Mussolini. Il Duce ran one hell of an efficient system.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Stu
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM

"Surely you dont think our heavy industry could have remained competitive if Mrs Thatcher had not existed? You dont seem to have a clue about how global capitalism works"

We'll never know if our heavy industry could have remained competitive will we? The transition from a manufacturing to a service economy, instigated by Thatcher's assault on UK manufacturing will, in my opinion go down as one of the biggest economic faux-pax ever (re-read the second sentence of my previous post).

"As far as Mrs'Ts political demise is concerned, it seemed to me to be mainly the result of a sustained campaign by the "liberal" media."

"liberal" media? Are we in America now? Co-opting pejorative US aphorisms is not good - liberal means something different here. Ask Margaret Thatcher - she was a liberal in the economic sense.

That gave me a belly laugh - Thatcher's political demise was of her own making, an isolated and forlorn figure abandoned by her party and most of her cabinet. She went because by that point she was a political liability, and the Tories needed to play safe, hence the election to leader of the most bland and inoffensive candidate John "I can balance a peanut on my knob" Major.

Was Geoffrey Howe part of this "liberal" media?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:24 AM

So you think the "liberal"/ conservative divide does not exist in the UK?

Mr Blair was a wonderful example of a "liberal"....and millions voted for him.
I'm proud to say, that I never did.....can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM

"Navy Tobacco Smoking was introduced on board HM Ships in about 1700, over tubs of water in the forecastle only. Tobacco was first issued in the Navy a hundred years later. The issue on repayment of leaf tobacco ceased in 1953 and tobacco is now available as "Pipe" and "Cigarette" only. The authorised monthly allowance of service tobacco which may be purchased on board is 21bs abroad and 11b at home. see BLUE: TICKLERS"

So subsidised then. Don't split hairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 04:46 AM

>>>The best 20th century peace time prime minister was without doubt Clement Atlee and his cabinet had a few heroes<<<

Like hell. Don't get us started on that fool Stafford Cripps [sorry SIR Stafford], whose conviction that socialism must always = misery was epitomised [again!] in his concept of 'austerity' with which he carried Attlee & all his cabinet colleagues. We DIDN'T 'NEED' continuation of rationing & shortages after the war was over. It was just that this sadistic, doctrinaire fool thought they would be GOOD for us, may he rot in hell for ever; so we all had to suffer shortages & misery & discontent while the rest of Europe [incl our notionally 'conquered' enemies] were living the life or riley. That is what has made the name of 'socialism' stink in the nostrils of the British people to this day ~~ why do you think that Labour has to be 'New' these days, & that no Labour government has ever lasted more than one-&-a-bit terms? Where do you think the cliché about how we 'won the war but lost the peace' came from?

Attlee! Cripps!! Vomit!!!

~Michael~











































Attlee! Cripps!! Vomit!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:34 AM

Happy birthday to the witch.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:35 AM

Known in our house, as Sir Stiffard Crapps.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1rJW2P2rFY&p=1CA2C28F30C7140E&playnext=1&index=48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JKvNoZzOEw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyDBsMi7WE8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6-DGLsN1sA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1jY5fYjV-U&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:42 AM

My worry is that this most loathsome of women will be given a state funeral. Should that happen I will be forced to head to London and demonstrate my disdain with a suitably worded placard.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:57 AM

There is a Facebbok group 'No State Funeral for Thatcher' which currently has over 14,000 supporters so you may find your protest a far from lonely one Mike :)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=25047037153

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 11:07 AM

Not subsidised Free of Duty - While you have read about them I used to buy them.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 11:09 AM

I don't think a state funeral is a real possibility, there would be riots on the streets.

Best thing would be to cremate her and flush the ashes down the bog.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 11:21 AM

What is it about her that makes people on this site so stinking filthy disgusting RUDE?

Eh, Silas, M Rigers, et al...

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 11:26 AM

Well, read the thread. I make no apologies for my attitude to the evil witch, in fact, I am having a street party on he day she snuffs it, you are all most welcome, but bring a bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 11:44 AM

I agree with MtheGm. Whatever anybody thinks about the only woman who has been Prime Minister in our country, I find it disgusting what is being said about her. To those people, I hope you get the same deal to you, as you wish on her.

Mudcat at it's best - vile

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 11:52 AM

Arthur, we already have , back in the eighties.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 12:40 PM

Just noticed that Akenaton reckons that to equate Thatcher and Scargill shows a lack of political understanding.

Gosh! Err.... thanks for telling me. I wouldn't have known and then may have carried on embarrassing myself. All those years I was a special advisor at Dept of Health and not knowing that if only I had spoken to a stupid right wing bigot I could have stopped interfering with things I don't understand there and then.

Thanks again. A bit late, as I am still interfering with Dept of Health in small ways. Although as I am not and have never been a member of any political party, perhaps what is where I went wrong? If I had a stiffy for Thatcher like Akenaton, I too could have hated people whose lifestyle wasn't like mine, and not feel guilty about making disparaging remarks about people I know nothing about.

I might also know where my stone was when I needed to crawl back under it...

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 12:47 PM

I wish her what she caused others. Misery for millions. Death for thousands. I'm happy to have the same quantum valorebat principle applied to me. I don't think I've done any of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 01:54 PM

Quote from Richard
Death for thousands
Unquote

Now damn, and there was me thinking that was Tony (I haven't been done for war crimes) Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 02:37 PM

I don't think she IS going to die.

If anybody ever matched Swift's description of a Struldbrug, she's it.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM

So what? I'll punish my criminal, you punish yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

He was only following in her footsteps as a poodle to the US anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

Well I think that true justice, would be for you to suffer the things you wish for others.
Thus those who wish good get good, while those who wish malice, suffer malice.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 07:55 PM

I think that's about right John.

Willie ...You seem obsessed by erections, even to the extent of naming yourself after one. Or does your handle refer to your intellectual capacity?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 09:25 PM

I see brain death is alive and well. I wish her what she deserves. Your attempts to mandate fluffiness would leave a world with no system of enforcement of law or morality. Some deserve being wished well. Others deserve otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 10:16 PM

I'd expect Satan is nervously dreading Margaret Thatcher's imminent arrival..


He'll need eyes in the back of his head for the rest of eternity....

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:35 AM

Richard never came back on the 'totalitarianism' question; so I take it he gave me best on that one. But further thought on that topic:~ You [you know who you are] are all going on as if she was working all those years without any mandate or public or popular approval; whereas the fact of the matter is that she went on being re-elected to continue the popular policies which she made no secret of her intention to continue to implement, because SHE/THEY REPRESENTED THE PUBLIC WILL.   It's all very well you all going on about her iniquities; but can't you see that it is you lot patronising the nation who constantly re-elected her, wishing that she could have somehow been got rid of instead of being allowed to continue to represent the majority who had elected her ~~ which is what she was doing, or she wouldn't have got so systematically re-elected by the people: that is what "Democracy" means, isn't it?~~   can you really not see, Richard & the rest of you, that it is YOU who are demonstrating yourselves to be anti-democratic; so that it is your impulses, far more than hers, that can most appropriately be subsumed under the head of "totalitarian"? You constantly wish that the democratically expressed will of the people could have been overturned on your and Scargill's and all's say-so, because you disapproved of what whe was doing by the popular will. What could be more 'totalitarian' than that?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 02:54 AM

If or when the funeral is televised I will watch it, most definitely. It will be very interesting to see what the content of any reading, will her darling son be there to do it or Carole. Carole Thatcher is a person in her own right and I admire that she has come out of everything unscathed and is a pretty together lady, all things considered.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:09 AM

"the majority who had elected her "

The majority of the UK electorate? Or the majority of those who believed that their vote might actually mean something?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:17 AM

Everyone knows that no individual's vote means anything.
Voting is a hard won right and a civic duty.
She never lost an election.
That does mean something.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:19 AM

Yes Akenaton, I do have a fixation about erections. Something to do with still being able to get one I suppose...

Perhaps I need to spell out the link between Thatcher and Scargill after all.   (If not, I might be showing lack of political something or other..)

They are (I typed "were" but Freudian slips don't change the situation,) both people with a view. Nothing wrong with that, we all have them. They both seeked office to influence and dare I say control others. Again, a calling for those who feel they have something to offer. So far, so hoopy.

However, they both failed to make the leap from promoting their idealism to representing the consensus. And that is the test of anybody who wishes to lead in a democracy.

Thatcher called me and my workmates "the enemy within." For that, she can rot in Hell. In later years and now, I am invited to receptions at No. 10. It is interesting to note the difference between being an enemy of the state and quoffing the Prime Minister's wine. The difference is the intellect and attitude of the Prime Minister, nothing more and nothing less. All this talk about a state funeral, has anybody checked to see if we have to wait for her to die first?

I hope her tomb has a sprung dance floor, because as an ex miner, my knees aren't what they used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 04:24 AM

Not quite sure of your point, Dave. The fact is, our democracy works on a constituency-based first-past-the-post, no-compulsion-to-vote system; which we all accept except the Lib Dems, who have never contrived to get it democratically changed for all their efforts. On that system Mrs T was elected time & again to govern, tho she could have been removed from office [as eg Brown has just been] at any time. My point is simply that it is pretty cool to accuse of 'totalitarianism' someone who accepts office under the system as it obtains, & continues in her policies when re-elected repeatedly; duly accepting & agreeing to the contract that she will cease to do so if democratically defeated. It seems to me far more of a 'totalitarian' attitude to state or imply that something should have been done to remove her from the office to which she had been duly elected by the democratic system near-universally accepted; or to abuse her for persisting in the policies which she had made no secret of her intention to continue.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:19 AM

Your hatred of Maggie and Steaming Erection Willy's post, reminds me of the song Graham Moore wrote. I have changed the lyrics slightly (that's folk). I don't agree with you haters, but there you go. A song sounds a good idea :-)

As I dreamed out one evening
By a river of discontent
I bumped straight into old gal Thatcher
As running down the road she went
She said, "I can't stop right now, you miners,
Mudcat is after me
They'd have a rope around my throat
And hang me on the LavaTORY"

But I will dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance in the oldest boots I own
To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones
I will dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance in the oldest boots I own
To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones

"I only talked about the miners
And shutting those pits down
But since the very first word I spoke
I've been looking down the barrel of a gun
They say I preached revolution
Let me say in my defence
That all I did wherever I went
Was to talk a lot of common sense"

Old Maggie Thatcher she ran so fast
She left Scargill standing still
And there I was, a piece of paper in my hand
Standing at the top of the pit
It said, "This is the Age Of Reason
Time to shut those pits
Arthur Scargill, I don't like you
I think you are a piece of sh**"

Old Maggie Thatcher, there she lies
Nobody laughs and nobody cries
Where she's gone or how she fares
Nobody knows and nobody cares

But I will dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance in the oldest boots I own
To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones
I will dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance to Thatcher's bones
Dance in the oldest boots I own
To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones


Maybe a competition for the best song lyrics for Maggie Thatcher might be a good idea. Just right for you mudcatters. Give it a go :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 05:29 AM

To parody a song about Tom Paine with Thatcher seems to me to be a travesty. Could not be less appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:05 AM

Well some of the vile comments on here are not acceptable, so I thought a little song contest might get people's grey matter working :-)

This thread needs lightening up.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 06:43 AM

'Not acceptable?' Really? Bear in mind these are just comments - words they cannot possibly compare with the obscenities of the deeds that this woman carried out.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:21 AM

That is of course your considered opinion Silas.

I happen to think that Tony Blair has an aweful lot more to answer for (war crimes).

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Silas
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:26 AM

Well Arthur, if you want to start a thread about Tony Blairs birthday I may well make a contribution, and, as a card carrying member of the Labour Party, you know what? I may actually agree with you (well, up to a point. However, that des not diminish the dreadful acts of this woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM

I happen to think that Tony Blair has an aweful lot more to answer for (war crimes)

What was that thing with the Belgrano again?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday.
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 Oct 10 - 08:01 AM

Look quite honestly, I am neither Labour, Con or Lib Dem and vote for who I think is suitable at the time, otherwise it's a wasted vote.

However, you labourites have a vengance towards anybody that is not labour and that is not healthy. You do not seem to accept that anybody else but yourselves should be in charge.

My honest opinion is that George Brown fucked up good and proper and that's why labour is no longer in charge. learn to accept that labour was voted out and wait for your time again.

I think it is a total waste of time talking to such deep rooted members of any party.

So I will let you get on with it from now on.