BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:12 PM

They know and they know about tsunamis too except they call them salamis. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:48 PM

U. S. doctors, "Social Responsibility," a non-profit organization of docters, condemns the limits on radiation set by the government for playgrounds at schools as being too high. They are joined by Toshiso Kosako, University of Tokyo professor, who said he would step down as an advisor to Prine Minister Kan in protest.
The U. S. group said any exposure, including background,can be a danger to children, and fetuses are even more vulnerable.
Japan Times, May 3, 2011.

Schools on the west coast of the U. S. might teach about the dangers of a large earthquake, but most children would be only remotely aware, if at all, of what earthquakes could do.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: mg
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:08 AM

Well of course the government should have equally forseen it, since any schoolchild here on the opposite side of the ocean hears about the big one, 9.0 or greater, all the time. Don't let anyone get buy with oh gee we did not see this one coming. it is because we are either too ignorant or too lackadasical to do anything about it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:36 AM

Jim-

I also find this quote from your link of interest:

On Monday top government spokesman Yukio Edano said the government would not cap liabilities faced by Tepco, because the disaster was "not impossible to foresee".

It's about time that TEPCO's chickens came home to roost, especially after they'd counted their chicks before they hatched! (You may quote me or not)

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:29 AM

Workers preparing to instal air purifier in Reactor No.1:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13257557

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 11 - 05:39 PM

I asked for a second opinion to the video presentation by Arnie
Gundersen linked by NIRS:

"A new video from nuclear engineer Arnie Gunderson of Fairewinds
Associates postulates that the Unit 3 explosion was sparked by a
criticality in its fuel pool. The video includes excellent footage
and a clear explanation.

Gunderson makes an interesting case for the explosion in the
Fukushima-1 Unit 3 spent fuel pool being more than a hydrogen explosion."

Here's the reply from David Lochbaum of the Union of Concerned Scientists:

"I do not believe that there was a criticality blast at Fukushima.
Uncovered fuel is known to create copious amounts of hydrogen.
Copious amounts of hydrogen are known to explode."

In summary, I continue to agree with Gunderson that the concrete structure of the spent fuel pool in Unit 3 channeled the blast upwards with tremendous force and that the inventory of spent fuel rods laced with Plutonium was fragmented in the hydrogen explosion and dispersed around the nuclear complex site area.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 May 11 - 01:58 PM

CNN, BBC, CTV and Al Jazeera have dropped any prominent coverage of the Japanese nuclear problems, perhaps believing the public is no longer interested.
Japan Times remains the best Japanese newspaper source of updates.

1. A second woman working with sick workers from the Fukushima Daiichi (No. 1) plant has been found to have been overexposed from radiation. Tepco says it is thought she inhaled radioactive particles from the workers' clothing.

Four women, two not radiation workers, have been found by Tepco to have been overexposed.

2. 76 percent of Japanese in a poll think Prime Minister Kan is doing a poor job.

3. Kan promises temporary housing for all evavuees by Bon (a mid-August holiday).

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 May 11 - 12:47 PM

Is anyone surprised about the June incident? Do we not see how they operate? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 01 May 11 - 12:41 PM

WTF???

NHK...

Prime Minister Naoto Kan says the government and Tokyo Electric Power Company failed to fully address safety issues that had come to light before the March 11 disaster.

An accident last June at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant caused by the loss of outside power and the subsequent drop in the water levels of a reactor was taken up at Sunday's Upper House Budget Committee meeting.

In response to a question on whether sufficient safety measures had been taken, Kan said nuclear plants operate on the assumption that emergency diesel generators will maintain a reactor's cooling functions when outside power is cut off.

He said the fact that such a back-up system failed to work properly has serious implications.

Kan said measures were not taken despite previous accidents and warnings, and that he must admit that the utility and the government failed to fully deal with the situation.

He also suggested that he will study the possibility of setting up an alternative capital to take over Tokyo's role in an emergency, saying that measures must be taken to secure the continuity of the capital's central functions.

Sunday, May 01, 2011 23:20 +0900 (JST)

"... study the possibility of setting up an alternative capital to take over Tokyo's role in an emergency, saying that measures must be taken to secure the continuity of the capital's central functions."

That sounds RATHER ominous. Anybody care to jump to any, ah, er, "theories"?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 May 11 - 09:04 AM

There's been no news on the BBC website for some days now, I wonder if that really means there's no news or that it's just not getting out!

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:47 AM

Charley... if the pool was even partially empty enough to expose the fuel, resulting in the fuel jackets providing ignition, the pool would surely act "as a rifle", as was said in the video. But, I still do not accept that there was a nuke blast. There is no evidence to support this.

As for Gundersen implying that the government has the data but isn't making it public... they have aliens and spacecraft too don't they? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:23 AM

If you search on YouTube for "fuel air explosion" you will find rather a lot of yellow flashes associated with much bigger bangs than Fukushima Dai-ichi 3. Gundersen is just talking nonsense here.

And clouds of black smoke can mean almost anything - certainly doesn't have to be nuclear fuel. Burning thermal foam insulation would look the same. So would diesel fuel, and it would make sense for them to have that on-site to power the pumps.

When I was a kid in New Zealand there was a dockside accident where an acetylene cylinder fell out of a crane net, hit concrete and went bang. The top end of the cylinder was found a few weeks later on the other side of the harbour, two miles away. The same distance that Gundersen is saying a conventional vapour explosion couldn't throw a fuel rod.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:06 AM

gnu et al-

That yellow flash on the right side of Reactor Unit 3 may be a unique signature. The fact that the explosion was directed upward suggests that it was channeled in some way and its possible that the concrete structure of the spent fuel pool provided that focus and that the fuel itself exploded possibly triggered by an explosion of hydrogen gas. In Unit 1 containment building the blast was dispersed in all directions as the hydrogen exploded, indicating that the gas was more generally dispersed. Just my thoughts trying to piece this together.

I've sent an inquiry in to the Union of Concerned Scientists, attempting to break through their contact fire wall; donor inquiries are the primary options on the drop-down menu but my wife has been a supporting member for 30 years.

It's not clear to me from the video of the wreckage if any part of the spent fuel pool survived the explosion, and remember the fuel there was uniquely laced with Plutonium. Ugh!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:03 AM

Yes, Charley... I too would like to hear what UCS has to say on the claim of a nuke blast.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

Gunderson does have a point of view and an ax to grind with an industry that doesn't like whistle-blowers, however qualified. So I understand why some who have made major contributions to this thread might prefer to remain skeptical. However, I have much more respect for Gunderson that I do for TEPCO or the NRC.

I'll also be interested in how the Union of Concerned Scientists responds to his video, as soon as I can figure out the best way to contact them again.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM

I am speculating that the Fukushima disaster may cause other industries in Japan to put pressure on the government for reform.
For example, 40% of the world's automobile microcontrollers are made in Japan by Reneses Electronics.
A shortage of these chips is affecting manufacturers outside of Japan as well as Japan's own vehicle industry.
Manufacturers will look for other suppliers, outside of Japan.
This company and other Japanese manufacturers may find that they will have reduced sales even after they rebuild, permanently affecting Japan's GDP.

I could not swallow all of Gunderson's conclusions. I dunno.

Chubu Electric Power Co. is planning to restart a reactor in its Hamaoka plant, "now subject to regular checkups," in Shizuoka Prefecture in July "to continue stable power supply this summer.

The company is making earnings forcasts on the assumption that it will start its reactor on the Pacific in Omaezaki, it said.
The CEO said that if restarting is delayed beyond July, they will incur additional costs of 200 million yen/day.
Japan Times, April 29, 2011.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:30 PM

from slate
http://www.slate.com/id/2292315/

from you tube

bigwig discusses organized crtime

http://www.slate.com/id/2292315/

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:23 PM

BTW Charley. If there are any specific questions you have re the vid, I could try to answer them for you as my connection is faster than yours.

I also find it helpful to backclick on the play bar to go over key points as many times as it takes to get the finer points through my thick skull and making notes if I have to. I find my notes helpful in dissecting arguements, especially when different terms are used for the same things at different points in the overall arguement. Dunno if that's from years of training or just on accounta I ain't too bright.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM

Just watched the vid (thanks Charley)... He says appears the #3 explosion may have nuclear in nature. Holy shit!

He says the shockwave of the H&O blast in the EMPTY pool caused a distortion of the spent fuel which created a prompt nuclear reaction, a prompt criticality.

My first question is, why wasn't it bigger? Would only "some" of the fuel explode?

He says a H & O blast would not cause the flash and is not an explosion which moves faster that the speed of sound.

Q2... huh?

He says the facts that pieces of fuel rods were found two miles away, U and P have been found around the plant, U has been detected in the west US, and that amoresium (spg) has been found in New England demonstrate that it went nuke. Also, he says the ratio of two isotopes (didn't catch the name) would prove if it was a nuke and that the US government has the info but isn't telling the public.


Q3... huh? Really?

I think it was a H blast ignited by the burning of the fuel rod jackets. Imagine how much H there must have been if the pool was EMPTY. I ain't no Sapper or nuke injunear but I would think it would go boom in a big way and blow fuel rods up yer ass.

As far as the hot spot on the heatcam, I assume burning jackets. Did he say when the heatcam pic was taken?

Sounded plausible the first time I watched the vid. Second time, I ain't a believer yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM

I've just been checking the websites of our resource groups and was absolutely fascinated by this Fairwinds Associates video linked by NEARS on what most likely happened during the Unit 3 explosion at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex (video loads slowly!): click here for video!

As you may recall, the explosion at Unit 3 was much more violent (Donuel certainly remarked on that) than the one at Unit 1. Evidently pieces of fuel rods have been found two miles away from the reactor. The reactor itself appears to be still intact. Therefore it seems likely that the explosion took place in the spent fuel pool. There was a huge inventory of spent fuel rods in that pool, and even some of the heaviest nuclear isotopes were volatilized and dispersed around the globe, being detected as far away as the East Coast of the United States. If this explanation of what happened is correct, this is very bad news, indeed.

The Unit-4 fuel pool still seems to be intact, which is good news. The fuel rods may be damaged there but they still can be seen in their racks.

I've only viewed the video once and on my computer it starts and stops a lot. So I may have missed past of the report.

I'm familiar with Fairwinds Associates as an organization that has provided important testimony on the Vermont Yankee license extension hearings. Arnold Gundersen is a well respected nuclear engineer who turned whistle-blower years ago. What he is suggesting does seem to make sense of the two explosions, and the damage that can be observed of the reactor units themselves.

Any other thoughts?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM

Further to that, there are 6.5 million members of Rissho Kosei-Kai. One of the founders also was a founder of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:07 PM

Jack, there are several large Buddhist groups. Mr Oshima is associated with Rissho Kosei-Kai, which has nothing to do with the group you mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM

Also trace treatment of Koreans, treatment of Hiroshima victims, many of whom I have just found out were Koreans brought in as "workers", organized crime. If you grow up in a feudal society, or remnants of one, and some of the elders in Japan grew up in a feudal society, you do not see this as a problem, most likely..not intentionally..you just truly do not see it. We do not see many things that are right before our eyes. But again I say there has to be an explanation for why they don't even feed the workers properly..if you had a word for them, perhaps them, perhaps not, that means nonhuman, you don't think of their welfare, most likely. We have seen this all over the world..it is not a problem unique to any one country. But it is something that needs to have a spotlight shone on it. Now, you say? Why now? Because these workers are in extraordinary danger and not even being fed properly. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM

Owners ultimately make the kind of money that buys governments, banks and country clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM

Nuclear workers are among the best minimum wage can buy.
Engineers on the other hand make several times minimum.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM

The final segment of Gunter Wallraff's film "Nach Unten"/"Lowest of the Low" (about the treatment of Turkish and Kurdish workers in Germany in the 1970s) was about a temporary-contract-workers employment agency. Wallraff tried to find out just how amoral the firm was. Filming with a camera concealed in a sandwich box, he impersonated the personnel officer of a nuclear power plant and set the manager up with a proposed job where migrant workers were supposed to go into a deadly radioactive environment for a cleanup operation. He specified that the workers had to be men who were about to go back to Turkey, with no ties to bring them back to Germany (implicitly, so they could dvelop radiation sickness and die in obscurity in scattered Anatolian villages). Could the agency find him a couple of dozen men for the job? Lemme think... yeah, okay, you're on.

So, what TEPCO seems to be doing is not unanticipated.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 05:36 PM

More on treatment of nuclear workers..contract..rumors were that they included the homeless but this was denied...

There is a severe problem with classism in Japan, sort of a caste system, and they have or had their "untouchables." Guess who some of the workers are.

But regardless, can someone tell me if they are being fed properly yet? I can see one or two days, but weeks? Months? What about water? What about bedding? Do not trust Tepco to do anything right. Do not expect the government to make them. Do not trust the media there to be totally comfortable exposing problems. Has to come from outside..not always..they are speaking up. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 04:28 PM

Jack, Regarding Nichren ShoShu Buddism, I was there and did that for 3 years. The fascist element evolved in a procession of increasingly severe guidlines. First it was to remove any non NSB literature from any bookcase or wall near the shrine. Later crazy announcments such as "remove every single book from one's home that is not Buddist in nature or even worse may be contrary to the master's teachings". Nam yo ho to you too ;)







Is there an app for the ACCUMULATING radiation and how it gets concentrated in food worldwide?



This will be my tag line for every post I make until I find an answer, or make one myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

Keep your eye on the new information. The extent of the damage disclosed will only get larger and more severe. The early cover-ups will be exposed as newer ones are devised but we will get more of the story as long as attention stays sharply focused.

I was reading an article from last fall about the new generation of nuclear power plants, and how the environmental community was becoming reconciled to them, 25 years after Chernobyl and and 32 years after Three Mile Island. We can thank the Japanese earthquake and tsunami for buying the world another generation before anyone will seriously consider proposing another round of nuclear power plant construction.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM

How is this different from Gulf of Mexico? Same lies and deceit..but add radiation. Add unusability of farms and perhaps shellfisheries and ocean fisheries for way longer perhaps. Add health effects of people and discrimination against them. Add angry neighbors..in both cases..but people do not take kindly to other countries radiating their children. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:31 PM

"...a taboo, so nobody wanted to touch it," said Mr. Oshima, a Democratic Party member, who talks freely because he is backed by one of Japan's largest lay Buddhist movements.

This reminds me of a long-standing bafflement.

In the late 1970s I was involved in campaigning against the construction of the Torness nuclear reactor near Edinburgh, and spent some time at a camp on the site. One of the people who joined us was a Nichiren Buddhist monk who used to walk around the countryside (or attach himself to demos) chanting "Name Myoho Renge Kyo" and banging a fan drum. He had a couple of pals along at times, and it seemed like whatever British presence the sect had was solidly anti-nuclear.

What I have since found out about Nichiren Buddhism is that it's some sort of quasi-fascist nationalist ideology in relgious garb - its most political manifestation being Soka Gakkai, which is more or less to Shinto what the Masons are to Christianity. A ruthless network within corporate capitalism. You would hardly expect them to oppose anything the technocratic elite had planned.

So what gives? How did those Nichiren guys end up on our side of the fence? And what is Mr Oshima up to?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM

NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company on Wednesday announced new estimates of damage after the country's nuclear safety agency questioned the accuracy of the initial assessments. The utility has revised the estimated fuel damage in the No.1 reactor from 70 percent to 55 percent, saying radiation levels were not correct.

TEPCO also says that it acted inappropriately in excluding fuel damage of less than 5 percent in calculating total damage ratios for the No.2 and No.3 reactors.

As a result, the utility revised upward its estimates of damaged fuel in the No.2 and No.3 reactors by 5 percentage points each to 35 percent and 30 percent respectively.
***********************************************

Tokyo Electric announced on Wednesday it would start building early next month, together with US and French firms, a storage and processing facility for nearly 70,000 tons of highly radioactive water. The utility firm aims to begin operating the system in June of this year.

The contaminated water is believed to be pooled inside turbine buildings and utility tunnels at the plant's 1, 2 and 3 reactors.

Tokyo Electric had earlier said it aims to set up by July of this year a system to remove radioactive substances from the water and reuse it to cool the reactors.

Contaminated water will be put through an oil filter, and the density of radioactive material would be lowered using a mineral called zeolite.

Salt would then be removed from the water so that it could be used to cool the reactors again.

Radioactive waste from this process would be stored inside the nuclear complex, but the utility has yet to consider methods for its final disposal.
*****************************************************

The operator of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says water may be leaking from the spent fuel pool of the No. 4 reactor.

More than 1,500 spent fuel rods are stored in the pool, the largest number at the site.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, has been injecting water daily into the pool to make up for the loss of cooling function and prevent the fuel rods from being exposed and further damaged.

TEPCO has poured in 140 to 210 tons of water over each of the last few days. The company found that water levels in the pool were 10 to 40 centimeters lower than expected despite the water injections.

The walls of the reactor building supporting the pool were severely damaged by a hydrogen explosion last month. TEPCO says the pool may have been damaged by the blast as well.

According to a schedule announced earlier on containing the ongoing emergency, TEPCO plans to install concrete pillars to support the fuel pool by around July to increase its earthquake resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM

And how is this any different from the recent oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? Lies, collusion, deceit, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM

Damning report in New York Times, online today.
"Culture of Complicity Tied to Stricken Nuclear Plant"
N. Onishi and Ken Belton, April 26, 2011.

"Given the fierce insularity of Japan's nuclear industry,...fitting that an outsider exposed the most serious safety cover-up in the history of Japanese nuclear power. .......Fukushima Daiichi....."
In 2000, Ken Sugaoka, Japanese-American nuclear inspector who had worked for General Electric...told Japan's nuclear regulator about a cracked steam dryer that he believed had been concealed. If exposed, it could have forced TEPCO to undertake costly repairs.
The regulator, NISA, divulged Sugaoka's name to TEPCO, effectively blackballing him from the industry.
The agency instructed Tepco to deploy its own investigators to inspect Daiichi. Regulators allowed the company to keep operating its reactors for the next two years even though, an investigation ultimately revealed, its executives had hidden far more serious problems, including cracks in the shrouds that cover reactor cores.
Inconsistent, inconsistent or uninforced regulations played a role in the accident....
A ten-year extention for the oldest of Daiichi's reactors suggests that the regulatory system was allowed to remain lax by politicians, bureaucrats and industry executives single-mindedly focused on expanding nuclear power...... despite warnings about its safety and subsequent admissions by Tepco that it had failed to carry out proper inspections of critical equipment.
"In Japan, the web of connections between the nuclear power industry and government officials is ....referred to as the "nuclear power village.""

A long history of coverups, push to expand nuclear power, despite discovery of active fault lines under plants, danger of tsunami and safety coverups.
It has been considered political suicide to even discuss the need to reform the industry. "...a taboo, so nobody wanted to touch it," said Mr. Oshima, a Democratic Party member, who talks freely because he is backed by one of Japan's largest lay Buddhist movements.

Collusive practices between bureaucrats and industry, long practiced in Japan, are the rule. The article discusses these practices, and the names for them- amagaari or ascent to heaven and amakaduri or descent from heaven.
Interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM

Has anyone monitored the radiation levels and changes in Canada as a result of Japan?

Since milk concentrates radiation 700 times how long will it be befire the levels accumulate to hazardous levels.

Is there an App for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM

In some respects. How long would Tepco have waited to report the explosion if they could have gotten away with it? How did the government of Japan inform other countries of radiation pouring into the sea? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM

Chernobyl pictures in yesterday's newspaper brought back the horror of a poorly handled nuclear disaster. The Russians waited three days to report the explosion and failed to warn parents not to allow their children to drink contaminated milk. Thousands of babies grew up with thyroid cancer. Such a sad scene. Workers were put on site with minimal protection and not a chance in hell of surviving.
Japan has been stellar in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 09:41 PM

I had a fortune cookie once and it told me not to be controlled by things that disgust me. This disgusts me. I will not be an enabler here.

But a song is in the back of my head but it is a pretty one. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM

mg-

"Cozy"

Well, more like ugh!

If you have the heart to make a song out of this, you probably would come up with a great one. It's well beyond my capacity.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/world/asia/27collusion.html?pagewanted=4&_r=1

cozy

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 04:54 PM

If it can be done why are they not issuing world-wide appeals for pipefitters or whatever? Or announcing that they hope to do this. Or asking for designs? It would have been especially easy I believe when the weather was cooler..now it is warming up..which of course makes it harder for people in hazmat suits..oh good news..some of them are made of paper and tear easily. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM

Jack... "Would any reactor anywhere in the world do much better if it was abruptly taken off the grid with fuel supplies cut off?"

Yes. The CANDU. I posted about the CANDU design and it's safety systems fairly early in the thread. Matter of fact, I lauded them until others here clued me into the spent fuel issue. Now, I am not a fan of any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM

Jack, In the U. S., its old reactors mostly the same GE design, probaly would lack suitable backup.
Some of the newer reactors around the world are cooled differently, but again, I don't know anything about backup- very little on the net about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:40 PM

Jack-

"Would any reactor anywhere in the world do much better if it was abruptly taken off the grid with fuel supplies cut off?"

The short answer is a resounding "NO!"

But the nuclear industry has always assured its critics that each nuclear plant has layers of back-up systems and such a total cut-off of external power is a highly unlikely event. Hell, our nuclear plants typically only had 4 hours of back-up battery power.

mg-

"why contaminated water cannot be used to cool rods off."

It can and eventually it will be used. I'm not sure why they aren't able to do that now. It needs to be collected in a pool or tank and then recirculated. This is only useful if the water is only contaminated with low-level radiation.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM

I still do not understand why contaminatd water can not be used to cool rods off. If the water is too hot by now then you could circulate it between cooled seawater pipes for example..lots of that nearby. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM

Would any reactor anywhere in the world do much better if it was abruptly taken off the grid with fuel supplies cut off?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM

"Nuke plants' backups fall way short." Kyodo, Japan Times, Wednesday, April 27.

"Most nuclear reactors in Japan would fail to achieve a stable condition in the event that all regular power sources are lost, even though plant operators have prepared new backup power sources as well as electric generators amid the crisid at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant (Daiichi), according to utility industry sources."
"The possibility of a failure to secure the safety of the reactors is because the backup power sources do not have enough capacity to operate all of the devices needed to keep the reactors cool."

The report goes on the point out the failure of specific plants to have adequate backup.
Some ten firms own Japan's reactors.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

the government has apparently just now asked tepco to provide all records..just now..when they are known to have made horrible miscalculations in readings, when they just a few years ago were known to have falsified, not skipped, falsified, safety records, when some of their top people were forced to resign..Just now..if I am reading this right. This collusion of IIC is beyond comprehension.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703778104576286372128115118.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 08:43 PM

I have never understood why they did not use robots from the very beginning.

Because, as an earlier article quoted in this thread mentioned, silicon chips are radiation-sensitive, and if you couldn't get enough radiation-hardened electronics for the robots, you'd simply be adding to the pile of inoperational junk lying around the site.

Radiation-hardened electronics is VERY expensive, only produced in minute quantities, and is generally not available in systems that can run off-the-shelf software. It's mainly used in space applications, and even the space radiation environment is easier to deal with than a disintegrating nuclear reactor. If you're looking for a chipset that can run a pre-existing set of semi-autonomous robot software modules on a standard operating system while fending off globs of white-hot melted core, you're going to be looking for a long time.

I suspect they may try to get round the problem by simply throwing robots into the plant like Stalin's infantry into a minefield, hoping they can clear the corpses before they stack too high. There is a real risk of catastrophe from any such attempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 08:01 PM

It is embarrassing.

We won't know the full story of just how embarrassing and tragic for years.

Charley Noble