BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

I have never understood why they did not use robots from the very beginning. Maybe there would be some down time training people for sophisticated purposes..but just one that could roam around, admittedly over rubble, with a video camera and some sensors.

Here is the answer "Fukuda said the company hadn't anticipated using robots in the power plant until they were offered by iRobot for free."

Most clever 14 year olds would have seen that as an immediate step. Many clever 14 year olds throughout the world could have at least programmed them to get sandwiches and water to the people slaving inside, who were neither given enough food or water for some time.


http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110425/BUSINESS/104250321/Nuclear-cleanup-crews-get-hand-from-US-robots?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CHome%7Cs

This company is a danger to the world and an embarrassment to Japan. Pray that some smarter wiser people are brought in. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM

slow motion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8472416/Chernobyl-recovery-officer-criticises-Japans-efforts-at-Fukushima.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM

Tepso said that there was partial melting in one of the reactors. Their recent statement said that there is no ongoing meltdown (in other words, it is under control).

Evacuees are to be allowed in for a maximum of 5 hours.

Prime minister Kan's party lost 7 of 10 contested seats, putting pressure on his rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM

some interesting webs

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704489604576284010597473764.html

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/perspectives/news/20110425p2a00m0na006000c.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM

if tepco says there is no meltdown, then how could there be? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:24 PM

Here's what I've harvested from NIRS:

"UPDATE, Noon, Thursday, April 21, 2011. As expected, the Japanese government has now turned the 20 kilometer "evacuation" zone into an exclusion zone. People entering the zone can be fined up to $1200 or jailed up to 30 days for entering the zone. Streams of people entered the zone earlier today before the new law went into effect to gather their possessions and check on their homes. The government will now allow a single visit per household, lasting no more than two hours, for people to gather their possessions. People returning from these visits will have to be screened for radiation. It is not clear what will happen to possessions found to be radioactive.

It is highly unlikely people will be allowed to return to the area, although the Japanese government appears to be willing to accept higher annual radiation levels for the public than other nations. For example, the government has allowed schools in Fukushima Prefecture outside the evacuation zone to open in April, despite radiation readings at 75% of the schools monitored showing radiation levels above the legal standard for a "radiation controlled area" – defined as an area where unnecessary human entry and radioactive exposure are to be prevented and avoided.

NHK TV reports that radioactive groundwater has been seeping into Units 5 and 6 at Fukushima Daiichi. These units are set some distance apart from the crippled Units 1-4, which means the overall contamination of the area, and migration of radioactive water, is significant.

Several media outlets reported that a Tepco official said Wednesday that Unit 1 is "melting down," although no clarification was included in these reports. Today, Tepco says that while there has been fuel damage at Units 1-4, it denies that there is ongoing melting of fuel."

It is of great concern that there is ground water migration of radioactive contaminated water from Units 1-4 to Units 5 and 6. But it's certainly not to be unexpected.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM

Japan expects its products, including cars, to be back in full supply by December.
(South Korean and GM vehicles also big sellers in the west).

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:52 PM

Firms here are selling off their Japanese and Korean vehicles dirt cheap and buying Fords.

Areoquip (hydraulics) has informed thier distibutors of a 9% price increase and long term delays in anything made with Japanese steel... IF they can even supply. Another hydraulics company has issued a letter to distributers... 20% across the board on ALL products, Japanese or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:45 PM

A radiation contamination map was made of the Fukushima plant No. 1 (Daiichi). Type and position of debris was mapped to aid in removal. One piece of concrete measured 900 msv/hour, a near lethal level. Some pipes and other material also was highly radioactive.
Tepco has started to use remotely controlled equipment in debris removal (see post by gnu).
Tepco is also searching for safe places to store the radioactive runoff from cooling operations.
Japan Times, Monday, April 25.

Economy and Fiscal Policy minister Kaoru Yosano said (Friday) that taxes must be part of funding for quake reconstruction. Polls indicate public support for increasing levies.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:45 PM

I have wondered why there has not been more mention of dogs used in the rubble to seek out at first survivors, if any, or bodies. I heard of two dogs going right away, and then another 11, but I have not seen pictures or heard of more dog involvement. Was there much I am unaware of? Usually they are johnny on the spot in these disasters with dogs..Turkey comes to mind as having teams. Were teams kept away for any reason? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM

This strikes me as VERY odd... NHK...

Japanese robots that will be used to inspect the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant were shown to the media in Chiba, near Tokyo, on Sunday.

The robots were developed by research groups at Chiba Institute of Technology, Tohoku University and other institutions.

The remote-controlled robots with tracks more than 20 centimeters wide are designed to travel over stairs and debris. They have a camera on a one-meter long probe and a radiation monitor. Detailed 3-D images of the plant's interior can also be created with laser beams.

The cable-operated robot can be used to guide the wireless-controlled robot in areas where wireless communications are difficult.

The semiconductors in the robots are said to deteriorate under high levels of radiation. But tests show that they can withstand radiation levels 400 times higher than the limit for workers.

Eiji Koyanagi of Chiba Institute of Technology says the robots are highly mobile and easy to operate. He says his team will be able to improve the machines by using information obtained from the site.

Tokyo Electric Power Company workers are preparing to use the robots to inspect the plant.

Sunday, April 24, 2011 22:32 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM

There's that ofcourse but it's just another example of the enormous problem the Japanese are dealing with at the moment and the strain on their manpower and resources there must be.   From the same article:

Thousands of Japanese troops are to resume their search for the bodies of people killed in last month's earthquake and tsunami, although hopes that many will be recovered are fading.

Around 14,300 people are confirmed to have died in the 11 March disaster, but more than 12,000 others are unaccounted for. Many are thought to have been swept out to sea or trapped beneath debris.

"5.000 troops involved in search for victims

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM

Peter-

Yes, another sad impact of this disaster. The domestic animals depend on us for their survival, not to mention our love. And yet they are frequently abandoned when the evacuation order is given.

At least in the case of Katrina or other natural events, animal rescue teams can sometimes go in and save some of them.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM

From today's Guardian, one of those practical things that has to be dealt with, easily forgotten:

The government plans to send six vets into the exclusion zone near the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant to gauge the condition of hundreds of thousands of abandoned farm animals.

Dead livestock will be sprayed with lime to prevent the spread of disease, and the dying will be put down with the permission of their owners.

Farmers who fled their businesses at the start of the nuclear crisis left behind 3,000 cows, 130,000 pigs and 680,000 chickens. Last week, the government declared areas within a 12-mile radius of the plant a no-go zone and said residents attempting to return without permission risked a fine or arrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM

mg-

I believe there's some core group of engineers and operators who are coordinating the temp laborers. We do the very same thing when it comes to refueling our nuclear plants, for better or worse. Hundreds or temp workers are brought in who do tasks they know little about for an hour or so and then when they have received their maximum exposure to radiation shift over to the next plant on schedule. Yes, there's a disconnect in the system and they are endangering themselves. It's one of the reasons I've concluded that depending on nuclear power is irrational and immoral. And if it wasn't heavily subsided by the Federal government, it couldn't compete with alternative forms of energy.

Please do us an update of Trojan, given that it's in your back yard so to speak.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

How can you run a nuclear facility with contract labor? Doesn't it strike one as dangerous? Don't you want highly trained technicians who know exactly what knob to push?

http://www.japanprobe.com/2011/04/12/perspectives-on-tepcos-use-of-contract-workers/

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM

former governor of prefecture

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/warnings-of-nuclear-disaster-not-heeded-claims-former-governor-2273764.html

"Snorts" at the IIC saying that this tsunami could not be predicted, as do I. It is predicted all the time where I live on the other side of the ocean.

Also this is interesting..we have heard for a long time about the young people leaving the farms for the city..someone somewhere asked why other young people, and they have a lot of unemployment, do not go in their stead..it was said they don't want to face 10 generations of discrimination. This discrimination is very serious and someone is going to connect all the dots between the organized crime, the caste system which still exists and the way the nuclear workers were not even fed for weeks proper food..a day or two, perhaps is understandable.

And the organized crime is pretty efficient..got supplies and water pretty quickly to people. Oh but the roads were all wrecked. They still did it. They have some code of honor that says no one should be allowed to suffer. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

Liquid nitrogen/dry ice probably would boil off before it reached the fuel rods. It boils at temperatures well below room temperature. Thermal shock and fractures might be the result if it did reach the rods.

Moreover transporting enough would be difficult; a manufacturing plant near the reactors probably would be necessary.

The net shows that the proposal has been made. No takers.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

mg-

I don't think there would be any problem setting up a manufacturing system for making dry ice on site, other than the site radiation levels. If the dry ice were manufactured in pellet form it could be distributed more easily via some kind of pumping system. However, there might be a problem with the dry ice being so cold that coming in contact with very hot fuel rods might induce cracks, but that's just a guess on my part.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM

sounds easy to make. pump it into cement mixer in form of snow and see if it can be pumped out. no water to deal wtih...

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM

How is it produced? Could it be manufactured on site? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM

Off the top of my head...

Dry ice might be worth a shot in #4 pool. Difficult to inject it "deep enough" and how would one obtain the required amounts? Also, logistically, it might prove a nightmare just getting it on site.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

There are questions as to whether the buildings were built as specified, cheaper grades of concrete substituted, a problem with a container being shored up rather than rebuilt.

Some people have suggested dry ice. Is that foolish or could it work? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

mg-

I reviewed the Bloomberg article and it does raise serious questions about the integrity of reactor Unit 4 after manufacturing errors were covered up:

"Warped Walls

The (reactor) vessel had sagged so that its height and width differed by more than 34 millimeters, meaning it should have been scrapped, according to nuclear regulations. Rather than sacrifice years of work and risk the company's survival, Tanaka's boss asked him to reshape the vessel so that no-one would know it had ever been damaged. Tanaka had been working as an engineer for the company's nuclear reactor division and was known for his programming skills."

However, that reactor was off-line for refueling during the current earthquake and tsunami and its manufacturing flaws could not have played a role in the current disaster.

Unit 4's nuclear fuel rods were shifted, prior to the event, to the spent fuel pool where there was indeed a major problem created by its cooling system being knocked out by the event. It's likely that after the spent fuel rods were exposed there was at least a partial meltdown which triggered another hydrogen explosion and fire.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 07:42 AM

NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company has decided to be more cautious about the volume of cooling water injected into the spent fuel pool of one of its reactors.
This is due to fear that the reactor building might be further damaged by the weight of the water itself.

The company has been injecting water daily into the spent fuel pools of the reactors to prevent fuel rods from being exposed and further damaged.

At the Number 4 reactor's pool, the water temperature was about 91 degrees Celsius on Friday, more than 50 degrees higher than the normal level, and TEPCO was forced to inject 200 tons of water. Substantial amounts of water will have to be injected daily.

Citing damage to the walls of the building supporting the pool during last month's hydrogen explosion, the power company says excessive water injection could further weaken the structure of the building.

From Saturday, the utility started assessing more carefully the appropriate amount of water to be poured into the pool, using a device to monitor temperature and the level of cooling water in the pool.

1,535 spent fuel rods are stored in the pool of the Number 4 reactor's building, the largest amount at the site.

Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:23 +0900 (JST)

The Japanese government has expressed concern about the structural strength of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant's Number 1 reactor. It says the ongoing water injections may be making the vessel less earthquake resistant.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, is planning to fill part of the containment vessel with water to cool the reactor.

TEPCO wants the water level to reach the top of the fuel rods in reactors one and three by mid July, so it can cool them under more stable conditions.

At the Number 1 reactor, where fuel rods are believed to be the most seriously damaged, six tons of water are being injected every hour.

TEPCO believes the water is vaporizing, then condensing in the containment vessel.

The water level is now estimated to be about half way up the bulb of the dry well.

TEPCO says the water accumulation will not compromise the structure. But the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says large amounts of water can make the building less earthquake-proof.

The agency says it needs to check whether the suppression pool pipes can withstand higher levels of pressure from the extra water.

Saturday, April 23, 2011 07:20 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:50 PM

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/fukushima-engineer-says-he-covered-up-flaw-at-shut-reactor.html

new york times..now we have reported the thugs kicking down doors.

And you want me to take a deep breath? We all should. There is something beyond incompetent here and it is going to be uncovered. Something rotten in Denmark. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:34 PM

About the caste system in nuclear industry. Translated from French.

Are the people who were farmers considered to be in a lower caste?

http://www.marianne2.fr/Japon-les-intouchables-de-Fukushima_a205023.html

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:28 PM

There is more to this than meets the eye. There is some reason they could not find the means to even properly clothe and feed the nuclear workers.   

http://www.truth-out.org/meet-nuclear-gypsies/1302843600

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM

Charley, I get hash with my Dell and Microsoft. My problem is that I don't have Power Point loaded. Google gives links for loading, and there are versions for Mac.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM

Q-

My statement was indeed greatly over simplified. Here's a more complete statement from Wikipedia:

"The reactors for Units 1, 2, and 6 were supplied by General Electric, those for Units 3 and 5 by Toshiba, and Unit 4 by Hitachi. All six reactors were designed by General Electric Architectural design for General Electric's units was done by Ebasco. All construction was done by Kajima. Since September 2010, Unit 3 has been fueled by a small fraction (6%) of mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel, rather than the low enriched uranium (LEU) used in the other reactors. Units 1–5 were built with Mark I type (light bulb torus) containment structures. The Mark I containment structure was slightly increased in volume by Japanese engineers. Unit 6 has a Mark II type (over/under) containment structure."

The Union of Concerned Scientists now offers a Power Point presentation of the Fukushima disaster for download but it doesn't work on my MAC platform. Can anyone else access it?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 02:33 PM

"...Engineers who built..."- these were Hitachi and Toshiba engineers, not Tepco. They built Fukushima and and turned it over to Tepco, the operator. The design was American. This does not seem to be fully understood.

It will take some time to care for the 120,000 displaced (figures vary somewhat, but this one is being carried by the BBC).

The Japanese Cabinet has adopted a 4 trillion yen draft extra budget to fund initial reconstruction work for the devasted areas.
Temporary housing, repair to roads and ports, restoration of farmland, and clearance of rubble are some of the tasks.

Insurance-
Governments run the world's 443 nuclear power plants without or with little insurance coverage because it is too expensive. Tepco, for example, had no disaster insurance, leaving compensation up to the taxpayer, but this is the rule throughout the world.
In the U. S. a meltdown at the Indian Point plant could cost $416 billion, but that would not take into account the impact on New York City.
Japan Times, Saturday, April 23.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM

NHK...

The operator of the troubled Fukushima nuclear power plant says it has detected higher levels of radioactive material in sea water samples near the water intake of one of the reactors.

The Nuclear Safety and Industry Agency says, however, there are no traces of highly radioactive water leaking into the sea from the plant.

The Tokyo Electric Power Company says it detected 160 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per cubic centimeter in samples of sea water collected near the water intake for the Number 2 reactor on Wednesday morning. The figure is 4,000 times the national limit and higher than the level detected on Tuesday.

It's the same site where water contaminated with highly radioactive material was found to have been leaking into the sea on April 2nd. The leakage was fixed 4 days later.

TEPCO says it also detected radioactive cesium-134 at 2,300 times the limit and cesium-137 at 1,600 times the limit on Wednesday morning. These levels are also higher than those detected on Tuesday.

The Nuclear Safe and Industry Agency explains that sea water containing highly dense radioactive material is piling up due to a special fence set up in the area to keep the leakage of the contaminated water from the Number 2 reactor water intake. It says it sees no new leakage of highly radioactive water.

TEPCO says the levels of radioactive material are on the decline at the 4 monitoring points off the coast of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The highest level in the latest checkup for cesium-134 is 5.3 times the national limit at a point about 10 kilometers south of the plant.

Friday, April 22, 2011 02:09 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM

NHK...

The Japanese government has announced the official expansion of the evacuation zone around the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to selected areas beyond the existing 20-kilometer radius. Residents of the new areas are being asked to evacuate by the end of May.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said on Friday that the government made the designation since residents there could be exposed to cumulative radiation levels of 20 millisieverts or more per year if they stay.

The 5 new municipalities are located to the northwest of the plant and are more than 20 kilometers from it.

Edano said that due to the possible impact on residents' heath, the government is now urging them to evacuate within about a month.

Friday's announcement followed the establishment at midnight Thursday of a no-entry zone within a 20-kilometer radius of the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

Edano also designated parts of areas within 20 to 30 kilometers of the plant as areas in which residents should remain indoors or be prepared to evacuate at any time in case of an emergency.

With this designation, the government lifted an earlier instruction to stay indoors for people in the 20- to 30-kilometer zone.

Friday, April 22, 2011 12:29 +0900 (JST)

Japanese lawmakers from both the ruling and opposition camps will soon launch a study group to promote the use of alternative energy.

The move comes amid the continuing emergency at the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The group includes former agriculture minister Masahiko Yamada of the main ruling Democratic Party. From the opposition camp, former secretary general of the Liberal Democratic Party Koichi Kato and the Social Democratic Party's policy chief Tomoko Abe will take part, among others.

The group is aiming to review Japan's energy policy that has been focused on the promotion of nuclear power, and shift it toward tapping natural resources such as solar and hydro energy.
The lawmakers also plan to assess nuclear power plants across Japan to find out what damage could be done to them from earthquakes and tsunami.

The group is scheduled to hold its first meeting next week.

Friday, April 22, 2011 09:32 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM

mg-

I do wish you were a Mudcat member so I might send you a PM now and again. I sent one earlier today to Jack.

Meanwhile back at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex the plant officials are confirming that they have "some" melted nuclear fuel in all three reactors and most likely in the Unit 4 spent fuel pool as well.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM

Furthermore, I have certainly never said US could do it better. I have said or implied that the Somali pirates could do it better and the Viet Cong could do it better, and I am not being disrespectful to either. I think the only thing that has kept this fiasco from being worse is people being very very critical of what they see and keeping on it from afar. I hope they do they same for me when my tsunami comes. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:57 AM

Of course keep them as close as possible to their original homes. For various reasons, it may not be possible for a short period of time. They are very distressed at their living situations. I am saying move them to better facilities, however humble, for the meantime. And many are probably past the age they can start up housekeeping again it seems and twelve million new houses might not be the answer for many of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:05 AM

I don`t know what Zionists have to do with any of this. I guess people take their shots when they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM

mg-

The Japanese will have to work out the problem of what to do with the displaced people largely on their own, for better or worse.

Today they announced that they intend to build 100,000 temporary housing units. Clearly there are some people thinking through this part of the disaster. The assumption that "we" could do better, is not something I find supported from our recent history, i.e., BP oil spills and Karina hurricanes.

However, I do share your anger at the bean-counters who run TEPCO (and I keep trying to spell it "TEMPCO"), the engineers who built a nuclear complex that failed to survive a natural event, and the engineers who blundered in trying to stabilize the plant after the designed back-up systems failed.

This is a stressful but educational thread and I urge everyone to take a deep breath before posting.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM

If they are past retirement age, they can live anywhere...another city in Japan, another country for a while.

People tend not to move around much in Japan. And in most of the world, old people in particular don't want to move anywhere, because the further they go the less they will have in common with the people around them and the less they will understand about how to get their needs met. They are being quite logical in wanting to stay as near as possible to their original homes.

The "let's move a bunch of ignorant old fools from this alien culture to somewhere that suits us" mentality is the kind of crap you expect from Zionists. Cut it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 10:45 PM

You can move and house thousands of people given weeks to figure it out. You do not need to move everybody. Some might have relatives if given transportation. Some might prefer to stay put. There are all sorts of countries with space and talented people to care for the elderly if it is necessary. There are boats that have beds. There are people who would take in strangers. There are churches that could find places for 10 or 20 elders.

Kan personally does not have to move old people around. He should have capable people in his government who could be given that task. Nursing homes all over Japan should be asked to fill any empty beds with people who want to move. I do not know if there are empty beds.

I know that the Philippines and Thailand have tried to get employment for their nurses in Japan but robots were used instead for some purposes. I would think both countries could take in people with staff from Japan to ensure continuity of diet, surroundings etc.

The Japanese themselves are speaking up. They do not understand this delay. I do not understand this delay. I think this should be a much higher priority than rebuilding anything right now, other than better emergency shelters. It should not take long. One nursing home chartered a bus, at the same time people were saying the roads were all destroyed, and got some out and to a better facility. It can be done. most of the country is not destroyed. Housing is tight but where there is a will there is a way. Oh..I do think there is gross negligance on many levels. If I thought everyone was OK and warm and well fed and clean enough then why would I care what anyone did? They can't even feed and house the workers in the plants. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM

"majic" is the japanese spelling.

Q... correct, as usual. But I was trying to make the point that blaming the people in charge is pointless and fruitless unless they are grossly negligent or cause actual harm for no apparent reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM

Prime minister Kan is in a difficult position. He must rebuild NE Japan after a natural and nuclear disaster, see that diminished electric power is apportioned properly to industry and individuals, deal with one of the worst fiscal deficits among industrialized countries, and keep the people calm and focussed.
All in all, he is doing the job he was elected to do, under difficult and unforseen conditions.

The Gulf oil disaster is still far from corrected; many businesses nd individuals who lost their livelihoods and businesses are still without compensation, and health problems and environmental damage are widespread.
Katrina problems continue, as corrective measures are inadequate.

The United States is a poor example to use in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:08 PM

Each time when it occurs I find that attitude that calls the Japanese 'folls' or 'incompetent', usually followed by a 'we should send in our...' quite offensive.

It seems to underestimate the scale of the problem the Japanese are facing at the moment. I doubt many countries would do better when faced with a disaster of the same magnitude.

It would be good to bear that in mind and cool it a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM

mg... there have been many reports on the efforts for temporary and permanent housing being built in Japan and abroad. But, housing thousands of people immediatey is just not logistically possible. I can only think that Kan's remarks were the best he could do to try to show some compassion...I am sure if he could do more, he would.

Probably more than Bush did after Katrina. The Canadian Navy was the first major relief force on site and offloaded 3M MREs. They were ordered to take them back on board ship because some contained Canuck beef which had been banned due to mad cow disease (traced to a US farm in the end). The first emerg rescue teams on site were from BC, Canada. And you say the Japanese should be better prepared and doing more?

This ain't a pissin contest but gee whiz... Kan is not evil, is he? Don't you think that if he could wave his majic wand he would?

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

When they talk about rebuilding are they talking about in the nuclear zone? Or how far out? WOuldn't they be better off building temporary housing facilities (we are still using some of our temp buildings from WWI) farther out, moving people there, and waiting to see how this shuttering of the reactors plays out? DO THEY NOT HAVE BUSES THERE TO MOVE PEOPLE? Do I have to send some of our Green Tortoises? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM

Japan Times, April 23.
No-go zone tresspassers face fines, arrest.
The 20-km evacuation area was declared a no-go zone, violators would be subject to fines or detention. [BBC reported some 60 people were still living within the zone and evacuated, while others had been entering to retrieve personal effects and pets. Pets are left as strays.   Fines are as much as 100,000 yen (ca. $1100) and detention up to 30 days.
One person per household will be allowed in the 3km-20km area by bus for a period of 2 hours to collect personal effects, and would be screened for radioactivity.
When and whether some residents would be allowed to return at a later time is open to question.
Under the best-case scenario, Tepco says cold shhutdown will take at least 6 months.

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2011/0421/Japan-officially-declares-no-go-zone-around-Fukushima

On Thursday, Mr. Kan was harangued during a visit to an evacuation center in Fukushima prefecture."Are you leaving?" one man shouted as Kan and his aides left the building. Kan turned to apologize, but was criticized again by a woman, who said: "You should bring cabinet ministers here and let them try living here. How do you think we feel?"

A clearly chastened Kan conceded he had underestimated the depth of feeling among nuclear evacuees. "I need to put myself in their shoes and think more about their needs," he said.

---

Now, can someone explain to me in simple words I can understand why they do not move the people out of the evacuation centers, which if they are children around need to be used again as schools without old people living in the gyms...

If they are past retirement age, they can live anywhere...another city in Japan, another country for a while. Do they plant o leave them there until they rebuild? Move them to a better place. Make arrangements with nursing homes in other countries. It is harder if people have jobs there still and children in schools and farms..but weed out the people who do not and move them..which should have been done after 3 days. I can not fathom leaving old people on a gym floor with no privacy and probably poor sanitation faciliteis for over a month when most of the country a few miles away is not destroyed. I know space is at a premium but surely temporary structures could be put up elsewhere in countryside. I am not talking 4 star hotels but something. It is insane. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM

Here's an update of what is happening at the sister Fukushima-2 nuclear complex:

"TOKYO, Apr 21 (bdnews24.com/Reuters) - Japan's Fukushima Daini nuclear plant, the companion of the crippled Daiichi plant 10 kilometers away that is still leaking radiation, has cleared a key milestone toward stabilizing, regulators said on Thursday, although the outlook for a restart remains uncertain.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said on Thursday it reduced the evacuation zone around the four-reactor, 4,400 megawatt Daini plant after engineers had repaired the cooling systems and maintained the plant in a "cold shutdown" for several weeks.

The magnitude-9.0 earthquake and 15-meter tsunami that struck northeast Japan on March 11 automatically shut the plant, along with the Daiichi facility, and the reactors' cooling systems briefly lost power, leading the government to impose a 10 km evacuation zone the following day.

Thursday's reduction of that zone to 8 km from 10 km was purely symbolic, however, as it remains entirely within the 20 km evacuation zone still in force around the crisis-hit Daiichi plant, where engineers continue struggling to restore cooling systems and staunch radiation leaks.

The government said on Thursday that the 20-km ring around the 4,696 megawatt Daiichi plant would become a no-go zone as of midnight, although engineers would still be able to operate within the area.

A reopening of the Daini plant would require the operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co, to get approval from regional governments and residents.

An agency spokesman said further repair work was needed at the Daini plant but it had stabilized and partially met additional antiquake safety steps the government ordered on March 30.

The volume of radioactive substances inside the plant's four reactors has fallen to less than one-100th the level soon after they were shut and heat from radioactive decay in fuels is under control, substantially diminishing the chances of a serious accident, the agency said in a statement. "

So this nuclear plant complex appears to be stabilized but there is uncertainly when it can be safely brought back on line. It's well within the mandatory evacuation zone.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:17 AM

I must have been really tired last night. Not only did I neglect to post the above message until this morning but I lost my cookie in the process.

Charley Noble, back in Maine

Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:01 AM

Safely back in Maine!

I think I'll just go to bed early.

Charley Noble