BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:19 PM

Charley, why is the news so damned quiet about all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM

Here's some more things to ponder:

Japan's chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano told reporters earlier on Sunday that a partial meltdown in Unit 3 at the Fukushima facility was "highly possible".
"At the risk of raising further public concern, we cannot rule out the possibility of an explosion (another hydrogen explosion?)," Edano said. "If there is an explosion, however, there would be no significant impact on human health.

I wouldn't feel reassured by the above statement, especially combined with the new statement from NIRS:

Update from Nuclear Information Resources Service (NIRS):

UPDATE, 5:30 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. Reuters is reporting that Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 has lost cooling capability: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-japan-quake-nuclear-cooling-idUSTRE72B3GI20110312

This is of particular concern since, unlike all of the other reactors in trouble, Unit 3 has been using plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel since September 10, 2010. Consequences of an accident at a MOX-powered reactor would be even more severe than at a more typical uranium-powered reactor...

Ugh!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM

It's a goat f**k out of control.

thanks for the advice concerning iodide tablets Charley.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM

Been mulling this over for much of the night. This morning there doesn't seem to be much more factual info to factor in. The newspapers are full of inept attempts by reporters to correlate info that they're not familiar with (not surprising) and if the situation wasn't so potentially tragic it would be very amusing.

Some have already pointed out above that this "accident in process" cannot repeat what happened to the Chernobyl reactor in 1986 and they are correct. The key differences include at Chernobyl the use of charcoal bricks to moderate the fission process and the lack of a containment vessel. When Chernobyl experienced meltdown and there was a hydrogen explosion the charcoal caught fire and its smoke was the source of a highly radioactive plume that spread worldwide for days. If there had been a containment vessel and a containment dome such as we have in nuclear plants in the States it's possible that a whole lot less radiation would have escaped into the environment; some would still have had to be released as pressure built up in the dome, as was done at Three Mile Island after its partial meltdown in 1979.

By the way one CNN "expert" last evening claimed that the malfunctioning Three Mile Island reactor was repaired and brought back on line. No, that never happened. Unit 2 was too badly damaged and contaminated to resume operations. It's sister Unit 1 however continued to operate.

Evidently the reactor containment vessel is still intact at Fukushima, despite the destruction of the building surrounding it during the spectacular hydrogen explosion yesterday morning, or so it's claimed by the nuclear industry spokesmen in Japan.

I'll be very surprised if there is not a second hydrogen explosion soon at one of the two other reactors in the Fukushima complex that were experiencing the same kind of cooling pump failure as the unit whose building exploded, unless the Japanese are more successful with auxiliary generators on-site to reactivate the cooling pumps.

No one knows how successful pumping saltwater in and around the reactor containment vessel will be, which is supposed to be happening now at Unit 1. That's never been tried before. One wonders what they plan to do with the huge volume of radioactive waste water created, other than pour it back into the sea...not to mention the clouds of radioactive steam created...

No one really knows what will happen if the fuel rods at Unit 1 do completely melt down. In the partial meltdown at Three Mile Island, the melt ate its way through the reactor containment vessel, swirled around the floor, and then ate its way back in! Not many people ever read the follow-up report that was published a year later. It seems unlikely that the melt would behave like a critical mass highly compressed in a bomb's containment, which also needs to be triggered by an explosion to achieve its classic nuclear explosion. That's the good news in what will be a very troubling 24 hours.

Oh, and there is the other nearby Fukushima complex where some of the reactors are also experiencing similar loss of coolant problems. Again, too much to focus on. I need more coffee.

Oh, and with regard to iodide tablets. The time to take them to protect your thyroid is before you are exposed to radioactive iodide, not after. That way the thyroid will no longer have the capacity to absorb the radioactive iodide. It's also true that too much non-radioactive iodide can make you very ill. Check on-line for the proper dosage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM

Yes that has already been covered, several times.

What's so great about your opinion that you need to express it without making any effort to read what other people have said?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, have got neither the time nor patience to go through all the postings to see if this has already been raised - my understanding of the problem seems to be that they need to urgently get in coolant to the reactors but probably need a power system to do it. The stand-by systems (generator then batteries)which should have kicked in failed because of the extreme circumstances (flooding).

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 03:35 AM

Ring of Fire
10% of the World's Volcanoes
Japan

Nuclear Power Plants



Do any of these first three make the fourth a good idea, or am I missing the blindingly obvious?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, right... ;-) Where's Geraldo Rivera when we need him?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM

Tune in to CNN tommorow when we all hope to see Anderson Cooper lowered by helicopter into Reactor #1 like a tea bag, right through its non existent roof and then broadcast right beside the containment vessel.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM

Yes, I know the difference, Donuel. There's the iodine you put on a cut to disinfect it...very poisonous if taken orally. Then there's the oral type that is taken with an eyedropper. I've been taking the latter daily for about a year now anyway, on the advice of my doctor, to help regulate the thyroid. It tastes good and has no harmful effects. It says right on the bottle: "Take 10 drops in water or juice once daily."

It's called "Iodine Drops" on the label, but it is Potassium Iodide, as shown in the Ingredients section.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM

The sky isn't falling. But if it makes you feel more alive then by all means have at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

Regular ol reddish Iodine can kill you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Potassium Iodide is the stuff that can be consumed by pill or by eye dropper.

jeez, where is John from Kansas ? He would have remembered that crucial fact. There is also a prescription Iodine mouth wash for oral surgury patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM

Well said Donuel.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM

Japanese society is special in the sense of their extreme politeness embedded in the language. They have a deeply ingrained self determinism. I understand why the Japanese government is talking out of both sides of their face, their public officials do not want to have turmoil and attacks against contaminated victims who are fleeing to other areas but they do want some knowledge of the actual dangers of a nuclear disaster.

Since Hiroshima the folklore of radiation and monsters is near the heart of their psyche. Godzilla, there I said it. They are facing their worst monster movie scenario. Godzilla vs Mothra and Fukashima. Speaking of monsters I wonder what the Yakuza is up to.

Japan is nearing the 20th year of thier recession and absurd housing costs. The malaise of young Japanese society is profound. They have a very high suicide rate compared to the USA. Dealing with very real challenges will be shocking for japan's youth.


Regarding the status of what seems to be a limited version of meltdowns in reactor 1 and 3, the fate of Japan and global pollution is literally determined by the way the cookie crumbles.

I hope the fuel crumbles in a dispersed fashion and does not decide to go critical, even in one little tiny spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM

There's no sense in getting all worked up about something we have no control over. The world will still be here tomorrow. If it's not we won't know about it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM

Yes sir, Donuel, sir! Copy that.

I am well stocked up on iodine. You never know when it might come in handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

doesn't look good ..

"We are assuming that a meltdown has occurred" at a quake-damaged nuclear reactor, Japan's chief Cabinet secretary says. "


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM

It's time to hunker down in the basement if you haven't already evacuated.

There is a theory that suggests that "boiling water" reactors such as Vermont Yankee and the Fukushima (I won't disclose why I am able to spell this word correctly on a public forum) are actually safer than pressured light water reactors. But it never made sense to me. I liked the concept of a totally secondary systems of pipes coming in to collect heat, exit, and then boil steam to run the turbines. Of course the secondary steam tubes tended to clog up after a while...

This is so much like some terrible flashback to Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

I'm not sure I'll dare to watch the news tomorrow.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:41 PM

You Soldier, yes you. Whats your name?

Private Jose Immenez

Very well Private Immenez, get in there and clean up that reactor.

Sir? How do I do that sir?

Just get a mop and bucket and get to it.

Yes sir, where do I empty the water sir?

In the sea soldier

Sir where sir?

the sea

Si?

Yes

Yes sir?







I'll get me hat

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:32 PM

OK you soldiers, stop it.

No one here is going to refight WW 2,
We have a meltdown to fight.

Do I have any volunteers?

















Anyone,

?anyone at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:30 PM

NHK bulletin

The Nuclear energy official said they are pumping sea water on both #1 reactor and #3 reactor. I hope they have Doug Flutie spraying the sea water.


When the spokesman for the N plants said there was no radiation high enough to be immediately harmful to human health, I saw him lick his lips and take a deep breath at the end of that sentence.
He also explained that wind direction may be the cause for such a wide varience in observed radiation levels.


Clearly this is a job for McGruber.
Actually it almost sounds as though he is in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM

Yes, Donuel, I know...but I just can't avoid talking about history. I love it. ;-)

josepp - You are correct that one man failed to pass along a message from the radar station about a large incoming group of unidentified aircraft. That was because he assumed that they were a group of (unarmed) American B-17s coming in from California. On the one hand, it was not too surprising an error...on the other hand, he should have checked into it more carefully before making a snap judgement!!!

A Japanese midget sub was spotted in restricted waters very near the harbour awhile before the attack too, and it was sunk by an American picket destroyer! Yet no one followed that up by issuing a general alert.

These were cases of considerable carelessness.

I have plenty of sympathy for all the people who died (or were injured) on both sides at Pearl Harbour and after Pearl Harbour. They were all doing the job they'd been trained to do and doing the very best they could, but they were among the millions of victims of power politics who have fallen in war. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sort of like the Japanese at this moment, after the earthquake.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM

////None of that was the Japanese ambassador's fault.////

While I pity the sailors killed at Pearl Harbor because of the incompetence of their superiors, I have no overall sympathy for the US. The planes were spotted a number of times and reported and nobody did anything. That is unforgiveable. I am a 6-year veteran of the United States Navy and I was trained that first you get feedback and make observations before assuming the watch--a pre-watch tour, it's called. Then you get a turnover from the watch you are relieving. it is your responsibility to make sure what he tells you gibes with the info you gathered on your pre-watch tour. If it does not, you refuse to take that watch until he gives your a correct turnover.

Then anything that appears out of the ordinary on your watch you must investigate, report and monitor. If anything bad happens on your watch--YOU are responsible--YOU ARE. I remember a guy went to mast because a steam pipe ruptured on his watch. A valve was closed that had no business being closed. Turns out the previous watch closed for a reason no one knows. The other guy came down and took over the watch and the pipe burst on his watch. He insisted it wasn't his fault. "Did you take a pre-watch tour and make sure all the right vales were opened and closed?" he was asked. "No." "Then you're responsible for what happened because you were on watch." He was reduced a step in rank. The Navy was very pissed at him. What happened to the other guy? Nothing.

So with Pearl Harbor, someone who had the duty that morning dismissed reports of unidentified planes and so he is responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor by military standards. That's way military responsbility was exercised on me and my fellow sailors and that's the way I, in turn, exercise it on every other person in the military. A report was made to you on our watch, you failed to investigate it, an attack occurred as a direct result, therefore you are responsible for it happening and should be punished accordingly.

It was his job to watch for invaders, he didn't do his job. If that is how a nation trains its soldiers then tough shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM

jeez I even gave you a satire alert.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM

Thank you again josepp. Pressure does supress boiling. In space you can boil water at 100 below zero.

Also a heat exchanger does seem to be an inefficient link in the chain don't you think? Do they use that for safety reasons or protect the pipes from extremely high pressures that steam produces?


The floor of this reactor does not seem to be as advanced as 3 Mile Island. So far it looks like it is just concrete with two big valves at the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM

///Okay... yet another perhaps stunned question... if a nuke power plant does not "boil water", how does it create enough kinetic energy to move a turbine to create electricity?///

In the types of plants I worked in, the water in the reactor that heats up and is moved by pumps through a pressurizer and steam generator was never allowed to boil. The pressuirzer prevented that. The water then passes through heat exchange tubes in the steam generator and back to the reactor. This system is called the primary.

On the other side of the tubes is a different, unconnected system of water that received the heat energy from the primary. It is called the secondary. It DOES allow the water to boil inside the steam generator (which is basically a boiler) and that steam is superheated and moving through pipes at a high rate of speed. It must be very dry when it enters the turbine. Very small droplets in the steam will tear up the turbine blades so there must not be any droplets. The spinning turbine then turns the generators to generate power which goes to a power distribution switchboard which is what I operated and oversaw for a number of years.

I take it that in a boiling reactor, there is no secondary system. The water must leave the reactor as steam and go directly to the turbines. That sounds dangerous as hell to me but it is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM

Come now, Donuel. ;-) That's being a bit nasty. The Japanese ambassador in December '41 had been sent a text (in code) specifically worded as an official declaration of war from Japan on the USA. He was instructed to give it to Cordell Hull at a specific time (shortly prior to the attack going in at Pearl Harbour) so that the state of war would officially exist prior to that hostile act. He failed to do so on time, because his incompetent office staff had so much trouble decoding the message and laboriously typing it out a letter at a time that they didn't have it translated in time for him to deliver it on schedule.

This utterly humiliated the Japanese ambassador, and it horrified Admiral Yamamoto when he found out about it, because he knew the American nation would never forgive a "sneak attack" launched prior to the declaration of war. (In fact, they'd never have forgiven any kind of major attack like that, but Yamamoto, like all Japanese, had a rather medieval concept of honor, so it was a major concern to him at least.)

I don't see how any of the above translates to the Japanese ambassador being untrustworthy. He did what his job required, and it was not his intention to deceive the USA regarding Japanese intentions, but to deliver that message as ordered to...and on time.

The attack was scheduled to occur about half an hour after delivery of the message, but the message didn't get translated on time.

The Japanese ambassador was a man put in an impossible position by his own government and his poorly trained office staff, and he should not be blamed for what happened. (In any case, both the American and Japanese governments knew darned well that war was coming between them...and very soon. And the military on both sides knew it too. There was really no doubt of it. The only question was, on which day would it happen? Only....the general public in both countries was not informed about that.)

You could say that the people who were tricked were the ordinary citizenry.   In both countries. They (and the ordinary servicemen on the Allied side) were the ones who got blindsided.

None of that was the Japanese ambassador's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM

speaking of irony...satire alert;


Whew, The Ambassador from Japan says everything is fine. Thank goodness we can all breath a big sigh of relief now. Thank God
we have no reason to distrust Japanese Ambassadors.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:48 PM

Now we are scrambling to protect them from the same horror.

...from an American nuclear reactor.

In the late 1950s when the decision to build it was made, Japan would have no choice in taking General Electric's product. The point of the transaction was to boost GE's profits. The fact that the reactor was nowhere near safe enough for Japanese conditions wouldn't have been considered.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM

Once again, thanks Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

Another irony? Rained not reigned.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

The pictures of terrified toddlers being scanned for radiation are heartbreaking. They are completely traumatized by the earthquake and aftershocks. Now men in odd suits (carefully protecting themselves) are seeing if they are "hot".
Meantime, a coastal town in another part of japan is "missing" about half of its population - 9500 people can't be accounted for.

Ironic isn't it? 50+ years ago we, the United States, reigned nuclear horrors down on these same people. Now we are scrambling to protect them from the same horror.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:16 PM

A pressurized water reactor uses a heat exchanger to boil the water.

http://www.nucleartourist.com/type/pwr.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM

Perhaps I asked too soon... "a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider" from josepp's post.

I can see (kinda) that if the heavy water was heated to super and funnelled properly it could spin a turbine without gas formation. Seems odd at first thought, to me. Just never thought of it that way... am a silly engineer by trade, not a make-a-nickel engineer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

That is al a fancy nuke plant is gnu, a big kettle to make steam to run a turbine surrounded by magnets to create electicity.

These bad reactors are whistling steam like crazy until someone takes it off the stove.

Cup o tea dearie?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:59 PM

There are two distinctly diffrent news announcments regarding Fukashima. The Ambassador from Japan is repeating in even tones that he has no evidence of a meltdown and that all relief efforts are beng carried out on schedule. His language is cloaked in terms that he may not be accused of lieing. "I have not seen///" "I have not been given reason to believe..."

The announcment in Japan from nuclear plant officials that a meltdown is underway is a courageous and honest approach that honors any volunteers who march into the jaws of hellish death to do what they can to save the other reactors.

Honesty is always the best policy except for individuals who would collapse under its weight.


The two tiered media announcments of this nuclear disaster is wise in that it allows people who would fall apart to have something to cling to while smart people still get the information they need.

At minimum people who did not evacuate yet will be motivated to move now.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM

Okay... yet another perhaps stunned question... if a nuke power plant does not "boil water", how does it create enough kinetic energy to move a turbine to create electricity?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:44 PM

As of 6:26 EST

"Tokyo (CNN) -- A meltdown may be under way at one of Fukushima Daiichi's nuclear power reactors in northern Japan, an official with Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told CNN Sunday.

"There is a possibility, we see the possibility of a meltdown," said Toshihiro Bannai, director of the agency's international affairs office, in a telephone interview from the agency's headquarters in Tokyo. "At this point, we have still not confirmed that there is an actual meltdown, but there is a possibility."

Though he said engineers have been unable to get close enough to the core to know what's going on, he based his conclusion on the fact that they measured radioactive cesium and radioactive iodine in the air Saturday night.

"What we have seen is only the slight indication from a monitoring post of cesium and iodine," he said. Since then, he said, plant officials have injected sea water and boron into the plant in an effort to cool its nuclear fuel.

We have some confidence, to some extent, to make the situation to be stable status," he said. "We actually have very good confidence that we will resolve this."

A state of emergency has been declared for it and two of the other five reactors at the same complex, he said. Three are in a safe, shut-down state, he said. "The other two still have some cooling systems, but not enough capacity."

From CNN's Tom Watkins

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

This looks like a reliable source:

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-links-on-fukushima-daiichi-1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:29 PM

Well that sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM

999-

And that's the good news, but thanks for the update.

Peter Bradford was chair of our Public Utilities Commission here in Maine after he left the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. We respected his knowledge and experience, although we certainly debated him rigorously on a wide range of nuclear related issues. But he's no fool.

I haven't much to add at this point.

I could score some points with josepp above on "boiling water reactors." But I won't except to repeat that Vermont Yankee is the only operating boiling water reactor in the States, over 40 years old, and quite similar to the old reactor at Fukushima which evidently is experiencing meltdown. In fact, according to Wkipedia, all the reactors at Fukushima are "boiling water" reactors. Please check it out if you're unfamiliar with this type and are interesting in the question.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM

In Japan plant, frantic efforts to avoid meltdown
(AP) – 18 minutes ago
TOKYO (AP) — Inside the troubled nuclear power plant, officials knew the risks were high when they decided to vent radioactive steam from a severely overheated reactor vessel. They knew a hydrogen explosion could occur, and it did. The decision still trumped the worst-case alternative — total nuclear meltdown.
At least for the time being.
The chain of events started Friday when a magnitude-8.9 earthquake and tsunami severed electricity to the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex 170 miles (270 kilometers) northeast of here, crippling its cooling system. Then, backup power did not kick in properly at one of its units.
From there, conditions steadily worsened, although government and nuclear officials initially said things were improving. Hours after the explosion, they contended that radiation leaks were reduced and that circumstances had gotten better at the 460-megawatt Unit 1. But crisis after crisis continued to develop or be revealed.
Without power, and without plant pipes and pumps that were destroyed in the explosion of the most-troubled reactor's containment building, authorities resorted to drawing seawater in an attempt to cool off the overheated uranium fuel rods.
Robert Alvarez, senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and former senior policy adviser to the U.S. secretary of energy, said in a briefing for reporters that the seawater was a desperate measure.
"It's a Hail Mary pass," he said.
He said that the success of using seawater and boron to cool the reactor will depend on the volume and rate of their distribution. He said the dousing would need to continue nonstop for days.
Another key, he said, was the restoration of electrical power, so that normal cooling systems can be restored.
Officials placed Dai-ichi Unit 1, and four other reactors, under states of emergency Friday because operators had lost the ability to cool the reactors using usual procedures. Local evacuations were ordered.
Officials began venting radioactive steam at Unit 1 to relieve pressure inside the reactor vessel, which houses the overheated uranium fuel.
Concerns escalated dramatically Saturday when that unit's containment building exploded.
It turned out that officials were aware that the steam contained hydrogen, acknowledged Shinji Kinjo, spokesman for the government Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency. More importantly, they also were aware they were risking an explosion by deciding to vent the steam.
The significance of the hydrogen began to come clear late Saturday:
—Officials decided to reduce rising pressure inside the reactor vessel, so they vented some of the steam buildup. They needed to do that to prevent the entire structure from exploding, and thus starting down the road to a meltdown.
—At the same time, in order to keep the reactor fuel cool, and also prevent a meltdown, operators needed to keep circulating more and more cool water on the fuel rods.
—Temperature in the reactor vessel apparently kept rising, heating the zirconium cladding that makes up the fuel rod casings. Once the zirconium reached 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,200 Celsius), it reacted with the water, becoming zirconium oxide and hydrogen.
—When the hydrogen-filled steam was vented from the reactor vessel, the hydrogen reacted with oxygen, either in the air or water outside the vessel, and exploded.
A similar "hydrogen bubble" had concerned officials at the 1979 Three Mile Island nuclear disaster in Pennsylvania until it dissipated.
If the temperature inside the Fukushima reactor vessel continued to rise even more — to roughly 4,000 degrees Fahrenheit (2,200 Celsius) — then the uranium fuel pellets would start to melt.
According to experts interviewed by The Associated Press, any melted fuel would eat through the bottom of the reactor vessel. Next, it would eat through the floor of the already-damaged containment building. At that point, the uranium and dangerous byproducts would start escaping into the environment.
At some point in the process, the walls of the reactor vessel — 6 inches (15 centimeters) of stainless steel — would melt into a lava-like pile, slump into any remaining water on the floor, and potentially cause an explosion much bigger than the one caused by the hydrogen. Such an explosion would enhance the spread of radioactive contaminants.
If the reactor core became exposed to the external environment, officials would likely began pouring cement and sand over the entire facility, as was done at the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident in the Ukraine, Peter Bradford, a former commissioner of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said in a briefing for reporters.
At that point, Bradford added, "many first responders would die."

AP National Writer Jeff Donn reported from Boston.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM

ANNOUNCED JUST MOMMENTS AGO


THE FUKASHIMA MELTDOWN IS NOW UNDERWAY.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM

While sphincter factors are incredibly tight
It really is clear were not here to fight.
This really is as scary as hell
but hope still rings as clear as a bell


Reeling reactors and swirling disasters
are reaching a critical threshold.
How hot it can grow nobody knows
but one day we'll all know what death holds.

Nuclear power is the news of the hour
and Plutonium makes people turn sour
The Fukashima disaster's like WW2
in that few of us know what to do

Like George Carlin said off the top of his head
"I can watch earthquakes destroy the earth safe and snuggled in bed
It seems he was right, but more so.
My ass has just swallowed my torso

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

Good work Charlie!

the info from that site has some amazing revelations regarding Fukashima.

Spent fuel rods are in the basement of the crippled reactor
Also they seem to be using a mix of unranium and plutonium for fuel.
For lower cost reasons they opted to repair cracks in the containment vessel with patchwork welded plates instead of replacing the whole thing.

I have't found what kind of floor shield is used yet but I will continue to look at the designs.

After reading the lastest bulletines I found that except for the above three findings, everything is on par what with what I have written and suspected so far.












The question that will not be answered in media soundbites is "what is the big deal if meltdowns occur"?.


hold on to your sphincter...


To my knowledge the largest hydrogen bombs probably contain less than a ton of nuclear material. They probably have less than half a ton.

During the decades in which atmospheric, space and underwater detonations of nuclear weapons were "tested", there were various health problems than ensued: childhood leukemmia rose 1000%, cancers of many unusual types rose dramaticly, lung and brain cancers more than doubled...

If each plant in trouble in Japan has between 20 tons of an enriched Uranium Plutonium mix fuel, along with an unknown quantity of old spent fuel stored in the basement and you multiply that by as much as 5 plants there are well more than 200 tons of highly radioactive fissile material, or nearly a quarter million pounds of Uranium with a small amount of plutonium and large amount of spent fuel.

When I ask myself about the amount of all the nukes all nations exploded numbering over 302, is the amount of nuclear fuel at those Japanese plants greater or less than the nukes we already exploded in our atmosphere??

I am guessing the Japanese Nuke plants have more. Way more.



If this is too troubling a question to consider, relax and please refer to FOX NEws who will assure you that radiation levels have gone down at Fukashima.



Charley's Nuke info site stated that the on site radiation monitors are off line as well as not being available for public information release.




_______________________________

What to expect from popular media if the plants melt down catastrophicly:
There will be many reassuring atatements that some radiation will be realsed but that there is no danger from this in the United STates.

We have the situation under control as we "Entomb the shut down reactors in a mountain of concrete.

There is nothing to worry about.

Move alon there is nothing to see here.

Left wing loons are blowing the incident and their self importence out of proportion.

The danger has passed but we should remain vigilant.

We dodged the big one.

We can all take a big sigh of relief.

Thanks to all the heros who battled the nuclear incident....    (this one I happen to agree with)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM

Hmmmm..maybe we could stop the meltdown by pouring all the Bankers and the Bastards down the chimneys, kind of block it all with shit.

Failing that, we could perhaps use all the billions of billions of billions that they've stolen from the world in general and see if that would smother the life out of things...


Failing *that*, we could all go shopping till we're quite literally dropping, with our credit cards (hey we may never have to pay a penny back!) buy 'Hello' magazine and a **very** large latte, then sit down, relax and look forward to the HUGE financial savings that will probably be big enough to wipe out all National Debts around the world, when we finally get to turn off ALL street lights forever, because we've just turned ourselves into a species that Glows in the Dark....

Maybe this is what happened to Glo-Worms...but on a much smaller scale?

It could also be the end of the IMF.....Gee, every cloud has a silver lining then..even the nuclear ones...



Excellent post, Bruce..

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

///I don't know the answer to that for sure without refreshing my aging tiny brain with research. My understanding is that the fuel rod casings are not impermeable to whatever (gamma rays and alpha and beta particles) are being emitted by the breakdown of the uranium pellets. The boric acid has the capacity to absorb some of these emissions which helps moderate the rise in temperature.////

I just looked up the CANDU system. Totally unlike anything I worked on which were Westinghouse and General Electric plants. But, as I said, I stopped working in nuclear plants in the 80s and i don't know what systems other manufacturers were using.   

////It's also my understanding that the Japanese reactor is a light water reactor rather than a heavy water reactor such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada.////

I know light requires enriched uranium but since I never worked at a lightwater facility, I don't know which is better. Heavy is cheaper, I know that.

///The fact that it is also a boiling water reactor rather than a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider. I'm not sure if it makes the reactor more safe or less safe. Well, any idiot realizes now that the Fukushira reactor is not safe now.////

I never worked with boiling water reactors. Never heard of it. Every plant I worked at was always pressurized. In fact, I can't see how that could possibly work. Letting the water boil in the plants I worked at would be EXTREMELY dangerous. It wouldn't be allowed. We couldn't even let the water transfer heat through nucleate boiling which is extremely efficient because it was too close to boiling at that point and so was too dangerous to allow.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

Charley... "...such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada."

???

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM

Here's another good resource for updates, Nuclear Information and Resource Service (NIRS), a nuclear power watchdog group headquartered in Washington, DC: click here for update!

Their full-time staff has the training and experience to frankly comment on such events.

I'm disturbed to learn there is also a "spent-fuel pool" in the basement of the destroyed reactor building; "spent-fuel" is actually high-level nuclear waste, old fuel rods, that remain deadly for thousands and thousands of years.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM

josepp-

"I'm asking if pellets of Uranium are encased in nickel rods how do neutrons from the moderator reach them since the moderator is making no contact with the fuel? And how is the process of fission controlled in such a system?"

I don't know the answer to that for sure without refreshing my aging tiny brain with research. My understanding is that the fuel rod casings are not impermeable to whatever (gamma rays and alpha and beta particles) are being emitted by the breakdown of the uranium pellets. The boric acid has the capacity to absorb some of these emissions which helps moderate the rise in temperature.

It's also my understanding that the Japanese reactor is a light water reactor rather than a heavy water reactor such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada. The fact that it is also a boiling water reactor rather than a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider. I'm not sure if it makes the reactor more safe or less safe. Well, any idiot realizes now that the Fukushira reactor is not safe now.

Charley Noble