BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

Unicef? The Japanese government told the world early on that $$$ is NO problem. What they need is time and manpower. They have oodles of money and equipment, but money doesn't clear roads and feed people and clean up a nuclear disaster... it takes time and it takes resources that are not available in sufficient quantity. If it was, they could buy it with the coin they said was no problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM

Sources for these statements, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

As in Chernobyl, there are no procedures to stop selling radioactive products and food in Japan. They did catch some radioactive Spinich but that was grown very near the nuke plants.

20% of Japan Fishing fleet and sea food processing plants are destroyed. So far Tokyo fish auction markets say all the fish are fine.

The fish who have feasted on the 10000 people washed out to sea must effect the psyche of people in Japan on some level. It did at Phuket.

Food shortages and food dangers in Japan will become more evident in the months and years to come.

At northern shelters a cup of noodles meal is common.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:31 PM

Japanese NHK TV every day broadcasts interviews with families in the shelters. These are halls and gymnasiums, open areas with each family centered around a futon, many families sharing the space. TV is not feasible, but books entertain without interfering with others.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:19 PM

Unicef is requesting donations so that they may provide children books as a distraction for the kids who have virtually no other activity at shelters. NHK TV is clearly not theia of choice for children in this disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM

Japan Times questionaire-
"Much has been written recently about the gap between overseas media and local media when it comes to coverage of the aftermath of March 11 earthquake and tsunami. What is your take on this?"

"-Japanese media outlets need to be more agressive
-Sensationalist journalism hasn't affected me
-The government needs to open more communication channels
-Foreign journalists should act more responsibly
-Social media is doing a good job of filtering
-Wasn't aware of the gap."

(Note- Major Japanese media, as a rule, do not print information that cannot be substantiated. Rumors are a no-no. There are 'tabloid media' but they are not mass-circulation, and are often prosecuted for libel. Panel shows are common, but use comedians, personalities, etc., and avoid serious and/or political subjects.
The 'talk show' on radio of the type found in the U. S. is absent.)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM

For what it's worth. A summary of readings from detection sutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Charley... "Is he saying that there are other sources?" No. It is "a" source. He cannot say there are NO others.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM

Study of the nature of the earthquake continues. Measurements by researchers found an area off the coast that rose 5 to 8 meters in a zome 180 x 60 kilometers in size. This may have added impetus and height to the tsunami.
Prof. Satake, Univ. Tokio, said similar studies were needed to determine if similar quakes and tsunami could occur in other coastal areas. NHK World.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM

I just read they have run out of shoe covers and are taping plastic bags over their shoes. Is no one checking on things like this? That is not a hard item to come by. They seem to let things run out totally before they think to order more. They waited weeks to order new generators. Please do not let them run nuclear ever again if they can't do simple things...I am wondering if I would let them put up clotheslines for free solar drying. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

Anyone for shooting in ping pong balls and old tennis shoes to plug the crack?

There was a fire and hydrogen explosion reported earlier in the spent fuel pool of Unit 4. It's possible that the explosion cracked the stainless steel and concrete containment for that pool, or maybe coolant is leaking out one of the drain pipes, valves damaged in the explosion.

I'd not be surprised if the other spent fuel pools in units 1, 2, and 3, are similarly damaged.

And as we've mentioned above, that would be a major problem given the inventory of high level nuclear waste stored in these pools.

One would hope that such large spent fuel pools will no longer be designed so close to the reactor vessel. There needs to be a small spent fuel pool for temporarily storing the inventory of one reactor vessel but it should be transfered out to a more remote well protected spent fuel pool as soon as it has cooled sufficiently. That was the design of the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant, a pressured light water reactor constructed back in 1970 and decommissioned in 1996, and it would seem to be an improvement on the design of the Fukushima-1 Mark 1 reactors, and their sister reactors all around the world, including the 23 plants in the States.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

Neither the Japanese Nuclear Safety agency nor TEPCO will confirm the estimates of U. S. Energy Secretary Chu that there were 70% meltdown in one reactor and 30% in another.

The failure of Japanese government, Tepco and Japanese media to fully disclose information is frustrating, but on the other hand, where did Chu get those estimates?

Adding to gnu post- "A senior nuclear safety official says the crack could be one of the sources of radioactivity found in seawater near the water outlet." NHK. Is he saying that there are other sources?

Workers are testing the spraying of synthetic resin. Type?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:28 PM

As disaster movies go, this is getting better and better.

There could be a very big and very real explosion of the tons of fuel melted together.

ITs called an excurison.   Isn't that sweet.

Its a brief runaway fission event

boom not BOOM RRRR like an A bomb but deadly in its own iminical way.
Take the 2000 tons of uranium ,
spread it big and quick or let it leak forever
no matter what all the kings horsemen and all the kings men try to do for the next 100 years...
those the sad and true realities.

Even the best possible outcome at this point is just awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM

The pit with the crack is connected to the turbine building tunnel and the water intake. They tried concrete and it didn't work. They are going to try some kind of polymer "thingy"... the translation is sketchy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM

NHK...

Radioactive iodine twice the country's legal standard has been detected in seawater at a location 40 kilometers south of the disabled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The Japanese Science Ministry on Saturday released the results of a survey based on samples taken 3 days ago. The sample was collected at a spot 10 kilometers off Iwaki City and 40 kilometers from the disabled plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture.

The detected level of iodine-131 was 79.4 becquerels per liter, twice the legal standard for water discharged from nuclear plants.

This is the first time that a radioactive reading that exceeds the legal limit has been detected off the shore of Fukushima Prefecture.
It's believed that the radioactive substances were carried offshore from the plant by a north-south current.

On Saturday, a crack was found in the compound of the nuclear plant through which radioactive water has been leaking into the ocean.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says radioactive iodine will be diluted in seawater and does not pose a threat to human health. But it said it will continue to closely monitor the condition.

Saturday, April 02, 2011 17:49 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM

"... Unit 4 fuel pool is exposed to the air and contains little or no water."

Can the fuel in the empty pool melt down and breech the bottom of the pool? If so, there's a lot of stuff under the pool that can burn isn't there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM

Here's a Friday, April 1, update from the Nuclear Information Resource Service (NIRS) on the status of the spent fuel pool in Unit 4 at the Fukushima-1 Nuclear Complex:

"UPDATE, 11:30 am, Friday, April 1, 2011. New video shows that Unit 4 fuel pool is exposed to the air and contains little or no water. "

Unfortunately their link to the video with narration doesn't work for me. I work from a MAC platform using Safari. Anyone else have better luck? Here's the general link to NIRS: click here for report!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM

Jim-

Your link provides a good update of the status of reactor units 1-4; it's estimated that 70% of the fuel melted down in one reactor and 30% in another.

It also refers to identifying an "8-inch crack" in the containment (pressure suppression chamber?) underneath the primary reactor containment of Unit 2, the evident source of highly radioactive water escaping into the environment. The utility workers are trying to devise a plan for plugging the crack with concrete, not an easy location to gain access to.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:39 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12945525

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:07 PM

Jack-

Thanks for the link to the 1957 Mayak disaster. I knew there were reasons I wanted to forget the details.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM

One was the Kyshtym explosion in 1957, I think it was, in the Soviet Union. If I'm not familiar with -- I mean, there are certainly -- and also, in that region, there was systematic dumping of radioactive waste into the watershed there, into a particular lake.

It wasn't systematic, it was a catastrophic accident much like Fukushima.

Kyshtym seems to have been the second worst nuclear accident ever (so far), as measured by the amount of radiation released. The radiation levels on the shores of Lake Chelyabinsk are still so high (fifty years later) that in places you can get a lethal dose of radiation in less than an hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster

This point is rather telling:

the CIA knew of the 1957 Mayak accident all along, but kept it secret to prevent adverse consequences for the fledgling American nuclear industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM

I did not ask why food and beds were not provisioned ahead of time, although some should have been. If the workers are going in and out, then there should not be a problem getting food and blankets in. Certainly when the fate of a nation depends on 600 people, the country would want them fed, and fed well, with Kobe beef if that is what they needed to keep up their stamina. It sounds to me like they were almost locked into the building though and were not leaving. You could have a shielded vehicle and drive to the door if they are opening doors. I personally can not think of a reason not to feed these men and/or women properly, and that includes the executives making them some nice delicious meals that they bring in themselves or program a robot to or whatever. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM

It should be understood that the workmen carry in food and whatever else cannot be found on site. There are no caterers, no beds where they are working- much of the buildings are destroyed. Perhaps mg will volunteer to bring in beds and tempura.

Even if food-bed provisions had been made in the reactor buildings, the pictures linked by Charley (and shown online by Japan Times, etc.), show that they probably were blasted by the hydrogen explosions.

Except for the first day, the firetruck(s) are not manned after positioning, but have a mobile supply tank attached which is serviced, as discussed (online diagram may have disappeared by now) somewhere above.

Undoubtedly post-mortems on the reactor complex will show that design was faulty, and operator and government agency could have done more to prevent the destruction, but now that is hindsight.

Should people have been permitted to settle, farm, or have businesses in the fertile, lowlands of Tohoku? Some 20,000 dead. Very little recrimination about this aspect of the disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

I think one thing that should be learned from this is that governments and big businesses can be terribly inept when it comes to emergencies. So-called contingency planning allows for whet we think may happen, but few plan for the worst things that can happen because to say they've done that implies some things may be beyond their control, and it's kinda hard to sell the notion of "hey, we've considered this and guess what, we're fucked if the worst happens" to stock holders. The zaibatsu doesn't care.

The Japanese have been downright stupid in the way this has gone down. Lying bastards. The Japanese people will pay a heavy price for this, and no doubt a few heads will roll. Tomorrow, it will be SSDD, and little will change. We face a similar problem here in North America. BUT, we allow it to happen by buying into the BS that gets shoveled into our maws by TV, radio and so-called leaders, most of whom I perceive to be ass kissers for the ruling classes--read big business. They can always get more people to do their dirty work.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM

Well, I just reviewed the new photos of the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex in its current state as annotated and posted by the Union of Concerned Scientists. Take a look at the damage if you are curious and are prepared to see some shocking damage: Click here for PIXS!

There's also a link there for an earlier set of photos.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

Q-

"and Charley perhaps could fill us in on exposures at Three Mile Island"

There was general public concern about the plume from Three Mile Island as it spread up the Eastern seaboard but the readings were relatively low. Even in the immediate plant area, it's been difficult to sort out the regional impact, the higher than expected cancers, spontaneous abortions, and mutations. The incidence rates were very low and readily debated by statisticians without resolution. That's the good news. I expect this will not be the case in Japan.

I don't remember any excessive radiation exposures for the plant workers, and we were certainly expecting them at the time and would have made use of them in our "educational fact sheets." It's a good question for anyone who has access to long term health studies of those plant workers.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:10 PM

Radiation comes from particles of ionizing isotpes of regular atoms.

U 235 has a half life of nearly the life of the universe.
Plutonium is way into the many tens of thousands of years.

Yep Iodine Cesium and other by products of HOT U 235 -8
Are short lived in comparison.

Iodine does not lose all its radioactivity for years.
But its half life is indeed 10 days. At its peak it can be devestating if injested. Horribly devestating.

poo pooing the hazared is in no ones best interest, unless you are afraid the truth will send people to suicide or hysterical break downs...which ain't likely

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM

If this is an organization that can not provide food and blankets under hazardous conditions, and it can not provide readily available (I presume) instruments, how can they possibly be able to orchestrate the nuclear disaster, that affects not just Japan but certainly the region. It impacts foreign relations, the economy etc. as well as health.

I expect there is a culture of bowing to big companies there. They are not long out of a feudal situation. I think information is not going to freely dispersed, as reporters and TV stations etc. are probably in ways beholden to whatever entity is in charge. So it is going to come from other sources.

And what exactly is the problem with getting food in? People are going in and out it seems. There are firetrucks and cement trucks around the area. Could a firetruck send one of its basket ladders up to a window? Can they not open windows?

I don't care if they have to train hummingbirds to carry one leaf of contaminated spinach at a time to them. Get them some food. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM

There have been no reports about inadequate food in any Japanese sources, only American and UK reports. Working conditions are difficult and it is impossible to provide a midday meal. Dinner cossists of rice with canned chicken, fish or curry. The type of high calorie "crackers" for breakfast has not been reported, they are accompanied by a carton of vegetable juice.
A Japanese nuclear official said conditions were grueling, with no facilities in the plant. It sound much like field conditions for military units under fire.

A shortage of dosimeters was reported, saying that for a time only the crew leaders had them. This lack was corrected when a shipment was received.

From the reports, it is impossible to accurately assess the exposure received by the workers; some shifts are as short as 10 minutes, but even this could be unsafe. The conditions at Chernoble come to mind, and Charley perhaps could fill us in on exposures at Three Mile Island.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM

Reading the daily press briefings from UCS is sobering, to say the least. When these guys talk about this or that incident/accident (explosions) that I have never heard of, it truly is a WTF moment for me. And, dumping of nuclear waste into a lake???... "One was the Kyshtym explosion in 1957, I think it was, in the Soviet Union. If I'm not familiar with -- I mean, there are certainly -- and also, in that region, there was systematic dumping of radioactive waste into the watershed there, into a particular lake."

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM

News yesterday that the workers didn't even have dosimeters. How much would a dosimeter cost? They lost them in the earthquake and tsunami, but how long would it take to get them from Korea or US? Post haste. I can not believe it would take over 20 days to get workers in this situation dosimeters, except by looking at other of their inept responses I guess I can believe it. Has anyone heard if workers are getting decent food, water and bedding? Yet. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:45 PM

Stock in Toshiba, which built 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi comples reactors, has dropped 17 per cent. Hitachi, which built no. 4, has dropped 12 per cent. Tepco, down 78% may be bailed out and taken over by the government, which says it hasn't ruled out taking a stake in the company.
An analyst at Sanford Bernstein says the disaster likely will be a boon for Areva SA of France and Dongfang of China as buyers of atomic reactors move out of the Japanese market.
Toshiba was working on selling 39 reactors by 2015 and Hitachi hoped for 38 sales by 2030.
Sat., Apr. 2, Bloomberg report in Japan Times.

Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, says the government is considering lifting the ban on shipments of vegetables and raw milk from near the Fukushima plant if they prove free of radioactive contamination in three consecutive tests- senior vice farm minister Tsutsui.
The ban would be lifted on a regional rather than prefectural basis.

Some 170,000 people are at temporary evacuation centers.
Several prefectures have announced they will accept the refugees in their area. It is hoped that they will move in groups, so they may maintain communities in the new environment.
(Much of the resettlement depends on the prefectures, which have control over the matter. Editorial in Japan Times, Apr. 2.)
"It is hoped that local governments that accept evacuees will make adequate preparations such as offering emplloyment and providing public services including education......"

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 11:09 AM

Jack-

I agree with you on that.

However, there will be over the years further distribution by prevailing winds of radioactive dust deposited on trees, soil, and structures. It's simply not feasible to clean up large areas downwind of the plant complex, as they've discovered around Chernobyl.

RANT ALERT!!!

I am continually irritated by the assumption by media reporters and some governmental or utility officials that radioactive isotopes are "harmless" after reaching their half-life. No, the isotopes in question haven't returned to background by that time; their radioactivity content has been reduced to half and they are still dangerous for 10 to 20 more intervals.
What does this mean for Iodine-131?

It's half-life is about 10 days.

After 10 days it retains half its radioactivity

After another 10 days it retains a quarter of its radioactivity

After another 10 days it retains an eight of its radioactivity.

Etc.

With cesium-137, the major difference is that we're concerned about a half-life of about 30 years. The concept is the same and it can be deadly for at least 300 years.

People prefer not to even consider the heavier radioactive isotopes whose half-life extends to thousands and thousands of years. Why consider the inconceivable? Cover it up with concrete, all smooth and beautiful!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:33 AM

The Fukushima plume will continue for many years at a minimum.

No. That smoke is carbon soot. There can't be enough carbon on the Fukushima site to keep a fire going that long.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM

Contaminated water now 15m below surface:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12930949

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:13 AM

Who can write a formula or make a graph chart to calculate the half lives of Iodine and Cesium isotopes, taking into account the number of days, the range of normal to 100 thousand time above normal, the concentration of a specific radioactivity by cows in milk (700 times) what about cheese?, leaf veggies, root veggies, apples etc

Maybe a slide rule is the tool for this but I am thinking about a simple to use functioning calculator for people to calculate particular exposure in foods, air water and over time.

The EPA monitoring stations and accureate info from Japan is essential.

Do you think this would be of any value for parents or are there just too many variables to calculate anything meaningful?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:07 AM

Guidlines to assault the Nuclear Industry for their assault on you and the Earth

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM

they will take appropriate action when it is too late to resettle the people, when other communities will fear them. they are a most incapable government. and then they talk about how the electric company did not plan well..who gave them permits? who allowed this? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:03 PM

NHK...

The International Atomic Energy Agency says radiation levels twice as high as its criterion for evacuation were detected in a village 40 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

This is outside the 20 kilometer exclusion zone and the 20-to-30 kilometer alert zone where the Japanese government advises voluntary evacuation.

The nuclear watchdog reported the findings at a meeting of its members in Vienna on Wednesday.

The IAEA said its experts measured levels of Iodine 131 and Cesium 137 in soil around the plant between March 18th and 26th.

It said measurements in Iitate Village, 40 kilometers northwest of the Fukushima plant, was double the IAEA operational criteria for evacuation and that it has advised Japan to carefully assess the situation.

In Tokyo on Thursday, Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters that the government has been notified by the IAEA of its radiation findings.

Edano said the reported radiation levels in Iitate will not have an immediate impact on human health but could be harmful if exposed over a long period of time. He said the government will closely assess the long-term impact and take appropriate action.

Thursday, March 31, 2011 13:29 +0900 (JST)

I gotta go to bed... I am sure many in Japan would like to be able to sleep tonight... sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM

Q-

I certainly feel for the farmers and their livestock.

But it's very disturbing to see comments like this:

"pouring concrete over the entire facility as one way to shut it down"

I can see the appeal of this approach, in the short run covering up a multitude of blunders. But it's not a long term solution and they would not learn the details of this disaster which could prove so important for averting similar disasters. And it really wouldn't work in the long run anyway because they'd end up having to deal with it again in ten years or so when the concrete containment began to deteriorate.

It's far better to continue to try to stabilize reactor units 1-3 and spent fuel pool 4 for 5 years or so and then proceed to decommission the entire complex in a normal fashion, step by step.

There are no shortcuts in dealing with high-level nuclear waste, as the Russians and Ukrainians have discovered with Chernobyl; they're currently entombing the original tomb in traditional Russian fashion (figurine inside of figurine inside of figurine).

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:56 PM

Forgot to note- the comments about government plans and concrete burial from the Japan Times for Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:53 PM

Engineers are suggesting that dismantling the Daiichi complex and decontaminating the site may take 30 years and cost more than 1 trillion yen. Three Mile Island took 12 years before the core was isolated after the burial and sent out west--


Minister Edano hasn't ruled out pouring concrete over the entire facility as one way to shut it down.
Dumping concrete on the plant would serve a second purpose: it would trap contaminated water, said Tony Roulstone, an atomic engineer who directs the nuclear energy program at Cambridge University.
(NOTE: Compare with statement by Dr. Lyman, post by Charley: Experts differ on feasibility).

Prime Minister Kan is looking to split NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Industry) from METI (Ministry of Economic Trade and Industry) because of the conflict of interest.
(Note: Sound familiar? A similar conflict within our government with regard to the Gulf Oil disaster).

Kan said he is considering a fundamental change in energy policy, which at present feature plans to add 14 more reactors to the 54 in operation before March 11.

A few weeks ago, I saw a program on rice farmers who had developed a way of life over many generations. Adjacent to the rice fields, farmers had built their individual homes, protected from winds by tree plantings, which also included fruit trees and space for a few animals, and with space for vegetable gardens. Over the years, a stable, comportable lifestyle was established, providing the family with their needs.
Last night on NHK Japan, family farms in the Tohoku area were discussed. The people have had to leave and their produce and animals have been contaminated.
Sad to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM

Mankind at large or just the people you know, will only make large changes in their lives when confronted by crises.

What constitutes a crises is a devestating event or catastrophe.

After the Japan Meltdowns, it is crucially important that the industry spokes people shall not get away with business as usual.

Toning down the tragic permanent harful events now and for millions of years to come, with rhetoric that calls opponents of nuclear power chicken littles or hysterical ignoramuses, must be shouted down and the spokes people condemned for their heinous lies.

Losing the moment that can realisticly stop the next dozen or more disasters must not be allowed to slip through our fingers.


When you here rhetoric such as once in a 17,000 year probability, call the perpetrator of that remark immediately. We have proof of two 17,000 year accients within 3 days of each other.

When comparisons of radioactivity to TVs and bananas and healthy sunshine are heard, make it cleart we are speaking of fetal mutation and life crippling cancers and food that makes you sick kind of radiation.

When the lie "No one has ever been killed by a nuclear power plant", simply call them a liar to their face. You do not need to list each individual or each case of disaese, calling them a liar for what ever reason they have chosen to lie, is all that need be said.


The liars for nuclear energy who go over the top on a regular basis for the private corporate owners come in the form of self proclaimed independant interest groups and self declared scientists. They have their astro turf websites and fake pictures on their site.
They are the pied pipers of continual death and horrible disfigurment and mutation.
Do what ever you can to help them change.

This is a crises, this is a disaster, this is a critical time in which the death peddlers will tell all manner of lies to preserve their former way of life. Well not at the expense of our food, our lives and the future of all children and all species on Earth.

The lasting effects of this showdown has the importence of lasting a million years, even if it is then buried under 12 meters of crust or silt by that time.


You have seen media regularly call any person who has seen a very unusual event or refer to a ufo as having lost their marbles. Do not allow the facts of nuclear disasters and near disasters to be cast as fiction by cowardly kooks.

Do not let this event get swift boated, global warming hoaxed, without the strongest rehetorical response. I am not saying proponents of nuclar power are like Randy Newman's 'short people who have no reason to live'. I am just saying that corporate nuclear proponents are helping decisions to be made that render your life having no reason to continue without cancer, child mutation, sterility, conception problems and horrible disfigurment which I know first hand due to the radiactive Iodine poisoning of my half sister Carol Ann Siddens.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:56 PM

Chernobyl had a graphite fire that was extinguished after a week

The Fukushima plume will continue for many years at a minimum.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:45 PM

Officials at Japan's nuclear safety agency said radiation in the latest sampling from the ocean near the Fukushima plant's discharge pipes was at 4,385 times the legal limit. That compares to the previous high of 3,355 times the legal limit, registered a day earlier.


Or in other words after a day on the beach there you would be burned, virtually boiled and dead.

Note: you would not be allowed to be buried in any conventional grave yards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM

That statement reagrding a comparison to Chernobyl is a strong indication thatt he diasater has moved from a level 6 to a level 7.

You're noble as always Charlie.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:23 PM

Today's transcript of the teleconference by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) with reporters has been posted.

There's a long discussion about whether there has already been a "criticality accident" and how that would impact the region. It's an interesting discussion on what would be an even more alarming phase of this disaster but the conclusion by UCS is there is not enough information to confirm such an accident and that they still think it would be unlikely given the general situation.

Here's what I decided to harvest; the first question clarifies a point I was trying to make yesterday with regard to dealing with huge volumes of radioactive salt water:

REPORTER: Good morning. I was wondering what options you think TEPCO might have in dealing with the contaminated water, to store it or move it somewhere. And if you don't want to speculate on their options, what are the difficulties in dealing with and storing that water? Thanks.

DR. LYMAN: Thanks for the question. I mean, it looks like the first difficulty is just not having tanks to hold it, the capacity to hold it. So, there was mention of bringing in, you know, seaborne tankers. I gather there's some issues there associated with them being able to dock. So, I'm not sure if that option is realistic.

But, you know, the question is doing it quickly. I mean, you know, in the long term, they certainly would be able to manage that water. You could evaporate -- I mean, reprocessing plants that manage highly radioactive solutions are able to evaporate the water and just concentrate the radioactive isotopes, but you need special, you know, equipment to be able to do that. There's filtration, but as I said before and I also heard the Japanese confirming, that when you have such high levels of radioactive materials, it could challenge conventional filtration methods, so you would need more sophisticated techniques. But over time, you know, assuming the situation is stabilized and they were able to get at least the physical capacity to store the liquids, then they would just be left with potentially a high-level radioactive waste problem, you know, like the U.S. has in spades with liquid waste left over from defense production. But, again, they just need tanks.

(SNIP!)

This question focuses on the end-game, full decomissioning of the nuclear complex:

REPORTER: I have one follow-up.
It seems like the Reactors 1, 2 and Number 4 has to be abandoned, so what kind of steps do they have to take, you know, to successfully abandon those reactors?

DR. LYMAN: Well, I believe -- I mean, first they are going to have to achieve cold shutdown, meaning you reach a stable state where you're getting enough water to the core that the temperature remains low, well below boiling, and you have a stable supply of water to achieve that, and that will have to be achieved for the cores in the spent fuel pools.

I don't believe, you know, talk of, you know, dumping concrete over the entire site or something is plausible without first stabilizing the fuel, because, you know, you can end up with a potentially unstable situation under -- what you're burying doesn't make sense to me. So, I think it will have to proceed according to, you know, established principles of decommissioning once the fuel and the spent fuel is stabilized.
It might take years, but eventually, they will have to inspect the damage and then determine how that fuel can be removed and stored safely. I don't think just leaving it in situ there is a good solution.

So, in the case of Three Mile Island in the United States, it took several years before they even accessed the core. They determined the damage, they packaged it, and they eventually shipped it to a burial site out west.

So, you know, once the material is stabilized, then you can start worrying about how to deal with the other structures, many of which are contaminated and will probably be at least low-level waste. But you're talking about a potentially pretty long process before the site can be finally decommissioned.

And then you have to deal with the contamination of the soil. There's already been some plutonium detected. There's probably more that will be an additional expense and hazard for cleanup crews.

(SNIP!)

This question seeks to compare Chernobyl's impact with the expected impact from the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

REPORTER: Just a follow-up question to that.
Is Chernobyl really an apt comparison given that that was an actual explosion and that, so far anyway, that Fukushima has not blown up to that extent?

DR. LYMAN: Well, the impact of that is that the releases from Chernobyl are -- actually, there were greater concentrations further away from the site because of the height of the plume. The explosion caused mechanical damage to some fuel, which changed the characteristics of what's called the source term or the type of isotopes that were seen and released, but independent estimates are showing that there's already been a significant or a fraction of the amount of cesium that was released at Chernobyl already at Fukushima, and to the extent that you don't have a hot, long, graphite fire that's wafting it higher into the area, that would lead to more concentrated deposition closer to the plant.

So, I think when all is said and done, you know, they're going to find there are areas within the current exclusion zones that I would expect to be a pretty big concern.

###

Enough to digest for now, especially so close to dinner.

But the entire transcript has a wealth of information.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM

I have high praise for the coverage of this disaster on npr, Rachel Maddow and for an alternative slant that is mostly 'relax radiation is as normal as sunshine and banana pie' kind of coverage on FOX.

When I look at the radiation monitors in the US that report Fukushima contaminants in the US, I was shocked that with the exception of the Carolinas and COlorado all the Red Sates report no Fukushima radiation while allt he blue states do! ????????????????????? I should link the map from last night

Its here in MD. Sure it is miniscule BUT when a COW injests radiation the contamination gets condensed/magnified by a factor of 700 TIMES by the time it is found in milk.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

The ground water at and around the disaster site is contminated.

The Cesium 137 in the area of the 4 leaking reactors now stands at double what Chernobyl was releasing when it was decided to evacuate everyone within 50 miles.

By criteria I hold as important, this diaster is as bad or worse than Chenobyl and is still capable of massive explosions (not like Hiroshima) but even more deadly taken on a time scale of the killing ability of the radioactive debris for the next million years.
Even if the 1900 tons of stored fuel do not have a fission excurision, the deadly qualities of this metal will still last for a million years



THE BEST CASE SCENARIO
Is if we can devise a massive way of breaking the half lives of these metals all the way down to a mere 100 years. What has left the area is a lost cause, but a project to do something like speeding up the decay until it is no more lethal than slightly radioactive lead, would be a god send.

Projected deaths from cancers world wide would be cut down.

I stress that mneasuring who lives and who dies should be over a time scale that we never talk about, thousands of generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/

They expect to die.

And those fools running the show that can't even get food to them and blankets...send a pack animal in if you have to or a kite or?? What is the problem here other than the kind of stupidity I would never have expected. Please do not let these stupid men and/or women ever run a nuclear facility again. Perhaps solar panels if that. Wind-up flashlights perhaps. Bicycle power hooked up to batteries. Modest windmills..not big ones that could tip over and hurt somebody. mg