BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM

Sinsull-

The comparison can be made by you and others readily in this case. Compare what happened between Fukushima-1 nuclear complex with what happened at the newer Fukushima-2 nuclear complex located seven miles away, up or down the coast. Both plants were knocked off- line by the earthquake and were flooded by the tsunami. But operators regained control of Fukushima-2 without hydrogen explosions or having to make use of salt water as an improvised coolant. That's the easy answer to your questions. The details we won't learn for years.

My preliminary conclusion is that the newer technology may well have provided Fukushima-2 the extra edge to survive. But maybe its plant operators made fewer blunders. Or maybe the damage from the earthquake and tsunami was significantly less.

"Irrational diatribes," I agree, add little clarity to the situation but I do believe there is ample blame that can be and should be appropriately focused on the designers, the engineers, the owners, and the politicians in that order.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM

White smoke means a new pope has been elected. Vive la papa. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM

Sinsull

your quote "irrational diatribes" are a hysterical if not very sad example of how people ignore the 'Uber Truth' of a situation and remain mired in the muck of manufactured contrary versions of a story and an ignorance to the divide and conquer methods of lying by the owner class.

Writing from the highest perspective possible of the how and why things like nuclear disasters happen and will continue to happen is lost on you, If stupidity is the cause it may be misunderstood forever, but not to everyone.

I trust someone here does see the scholarship, common sense and perhaps the simple genius in my "diatribes" and "mini scripts" that explain more than an exposition of data. I believe it is important if not imperative to see the big picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

This may have been posted before. Japan had 55 reactors (before the tsunami), providing 35 percent of Japan's electricity. All are in coastal locations.
Construction of four new complexes has been delayed for one year to allow for study of the Fukushima disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM

Is there any reason to believe that if this plant had been using the best known technology and was built to withstand the worst case "expected" scenario that things would be any different? Sometimes shit just happens. Japan needs power. Nuclear energy provides an economical option. What other options (safer options and think Exxon Valdez before you answer) were available when these plants were built?
Just a thought. And I don't subscribe to to the irrational diatribes about greed and politicinas. The people of Japan chose this option. As have the people of many other countries including the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:44 PM

An editorial in Japan Times, March 23, titled "Nuclear Power No Solution," by Brahma Chellaney, pointed out serious drawbacks to the push for nuclear energy.
Nuclear power is highly capital-intensive. "It has high up-front capital costs, long lead times for construction and commissioning, and drawn-out amortization periods that put off private investors." (Many are partly or largely government-funded and subsidized).

Nuclear reactors are water-intensive. This is one reason for locating them near coastlines (thus exposed to natural disasters).
Light-water reactors (like Japan and U. S.), which use water as the main coolant, produce most of the world's nuclear power. "The huge quantities of local water that LWRs use for their operations become hot-water outflows, which are pumped back into rivers, lakes and oceans."
When droughts and other causes deplete the water supply, nuclear companies must but outside power. "Indeed, during the 2003 heat wave, Electricite de France, which operates 58 reactors- the majority on ecologically sensitive rivers like the Loire- was compelled to buy power on the European spot market."
In 2006, operators in western Europe obtained exemptions from environmental regulations so that they could discharge overheated water into natural ecosystems, effecting fisheries.

Nuclear power in France supplies 78 percent of the country's electricity, but withdraws half of France's total freshwater consumption.

Freshwater scarcity is a growing problem. A water guzzler, this problem equals that of radiation and spent fuel problems.

Brahma Chellaney wrote "Nuclear Proliferation," Longman, 1993, and "Water. Asia's New Battlefield," Georgetown University Press, forthcoming.
Brahma Chellaney is Professor of Strategic Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi. He has held appointments at Harvard, Johns Hopkins University of Advanced International Studies, the Brookings Institution and the Australian National University.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM

"Tepco said work was ongoing to connect pipes to outside electrical supplies to pump seawater to circulation systems at No. 5 and 6, and the operation should be completed Wednesday."

Which means that the utility has given up on salvaging Units 5 and 6 as well.

Utility spokesmen were also quoted on either MSNBC or CNN (I forget which) as saying it might be as long as two weeks before they were able to turn on the electricity within all the reactor units. They need to be sure the hydrogen gas is completely vented (and not continuing to be produced), that the electrical circuits still function or can be bypassed, and that the various electrical motors still function or can be replaced.

I do wonder what level of review will be coordinated by the NRC to assess how our 104 nuclear power plants would function with a similar loss of pumping capacity because of earthquake, tsunami, or other reason. It seems likely to me that the spent fuel pools are every bit as vulnerable as has been proven in the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM

Who is lieing?
How do they lie?
Why do they lie?
What they lie about will always be about guarding an investment at any cost.

I will begin by pointing out a great and symbolic lie.

The second invasion of Iraq was about to begin and Secretary of State Colin Powell was responsible for dressing the coming war in the newest fashion of legitimacy by displaying fake vials of biological warfare weapons and alleged pictures of nuclear weapon factories. He was about to make his announcement to the world of the coming war, not to members of the United Nations but to the American public. He did so in the lobby of the UN instead of in the empty Security Council Chamber.
There was a problem. A huge 150 square foot tapestry was hung in the lobby. It is said that TV cameramen felt that the tapestry would distract the television audience or at least hinder color contrast from the spirit of the message that was to be delivered. The cameramen insisted that the UN provide a solution to the problem. Finally a baby blue polyester curtain three times larger than the painting and bearing the UN logo hid the monstrosity from view. Who would be surprised to learn that the cameramen were from FOX news?
For me that one act symbolizes the thin veil of civility of the 21st century. The enlarged tapestry reproduction of the grandiose painting by Pablo Picasso reveals the savage inhuman disregard for rending flesh from bone of animals and people by the explosions of remote impersonal bombs and artillery that defines much of World War two.   The blue veil covering the picture reveals the belief in the old public relations philosophy that perception is reality. The original painting took a lifetime and the lives of those killed by modern warfare to create. To cover it up it took $300 dollars of polyester and twenty minutes to hang.

Be it the thin blue veil or the thin blue line, civility is as fragile as tissue paper. The human mind will not remember a simple stated truth if it is delivered by a calm peaceful speaker, but if a gesticulating bellicose shouting orator or merely a generally emotional speaker should shout an obvious untruth, that untruth will be remembered with a dose of adrenaline to the listener. In a short time the truth is forgotten and the lie is remembered. With repetition of the lie it becomes an embedded perception of reality. A lie becomes reality within the corrupted memories of the lied to, but not in the reality of the world we share.

Whose voice is heard most often with the most lies? The answer is the voice of the multi billionaires. Billionaires have the same motivations to prosper or do crazy things like anyone else. Only the means are different. A wage earner might scrape a stranger's car in the parking lot and take off without even leaving a note. A billionaire may have private investments in nuclear plants that have accidents and makes sure that he and the company cover it up and are not held responsible. The difference between a fender bender and 25,000 years of deadly radioactive pollution is great, but the human decision making is the same.

Constant warfare, nuclear holocausts in the making, the destruction of democracies, the soaking and sacrificing of workers and the middle class are all Billionaire's games. Besides democracy It is becoming clear that the next threat to the exclusive community of trillionaires is the internet, with its social networking and private entrepreneurial advances by those not under their direct management and control.   Net neutrality is a war the will eventually win. Trillionaires won the war of" too big to fail". Since the 2008 capture of 90% of all money in the world, the entities responsible have in fact become even bigger and more capable of failure that will again be the burden placed upon everyone but themselves.

What happens when multi billionaires who buy and sell national politicians and trillionaires who buy and sell nations, disagree? Whatever it is, you do not have a vote.

How multibillionaires lie is a matter of buying a product from their think tanks. If its a think tank is is usually devoted to a product to maximize the profits of the wealthy and organize events to proceed in a more profitable manner in the future.
In my opinion most of these houses of research do not consider nationalism or patriotism as anything except factors to exploit.
They are the Goebbles of "Banking and Industry".
Think tanks for the most part are just houses of invented lies for profit.

In the spectre of nuclear disasters:
I advise
it is wise
to realize
the lies
are designed to make you feel good and safe and possibly annoyed with those silly frightened enviormentalists who are nothing but ignorant cowards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

Power has been extended ("connected") to the Fukushima complex, but it will be days before all functions are tested and repaired.
Japan Times-
White smoke- possibly steam- billowed continuously from buildings housing No. 2 and No. 3 reactors, but Tepco said work could proceed if radiation levels didn't surge at the site.
Defense Minister Kitazawa said he believes the smoke rising from the No. 2 reactor was vapor given off by the water that had been sprayed, while the blackish smoke briefly detected Tuesday at No. 3 was likely rubble that caught fire.

Ventilation systems to filter radioactive materials from tha air are among key equipment that needed the electrical power.

Tepco hopes to restore power to data measuring systems and functions by Wednesday and by Thursday to the No. 3 and 4 reactors, according to a spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
Tepco said work was ongoing to connect pipes to outside electrical supplies to pump seawater to circulation systems at No. 5 and 6, and the operation should be completed Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM

I was surprised to learn that China is in the process of building many more nuclear power plants. This, despite the fact that they had one of the deadliest earthquakes on recent record, where nearly a quarter of a million died as a result.

Tangshan, China
July 28, 1976
Magnitude: 7.5
Death Toll: 242,000
(The casualties in this may have been higher. The Chinese government is thought to have deliberately understated the numbers for political reasons.)

I know that the need for electrical power is great and that modernization is tied to that need but nuclear power is not intelligent technology. It is flawed technology, that places great risk on our doorsteps.

"The worst earthquakes in history, in terms of the death toll have occurred in China. In addition to lying along the earthquake prone "ring of fire", China also has historically had a high population density. This virtually ensures that the highest earthquake casualties will be in China. It also is helpful that the Chinese have long had efficient bureaucracies, which were able to document the casualties as long ago as the 1500s. "

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_worlds_deadliest_earthquakes/

That's not to mention that China has had six of the top ten deadliest floods in about the last 100 years. The latest, in 1975, where nearly a quarter of a million lost their lives.

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_worlds_worst_floods_by_death_toll/

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:32 PM

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26e02c04-50d2-11e0-9227-00144feab49a.html#axzz1HLnJVzRZ

Interesting article. I wonder in days to come how much we will find out was incompetence, as would be expected from a failing communist country for example, and how much was essentially organized crime. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM

Charly Noble: "There was considerably more worldwide fall out from the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and some different radioactive products such as Strontium-90, than say from the Chernobyl meltdown, explosion and resultant fire."

Well, as far as the fallout from those reaching the West Coast, do you think that California produced a bunch of mutant freaks after-wards??...Come to think of it, what am I saying????!!?? Hell YES!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

A sheet metal building? Not even concrete?

Brownie, where are you when we need you.

I might have to send in the Kardashians next. But I am frankly running out of people to send. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

Power lines to all six nuclear reactor units at Japan's quake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi complex have been connected, its operator said, but electricity has not yet been turned on.

Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) warned on Tuesday that equipment still had to be checked before power could be properly reconnected, which would mark a significant step in bringing the reactors back under control.

Engineers have also been able to cool a spent fuel pool that was nearly boiling, bringing it back to 105 degrees after dumping 18 tonnes of seawater into a holding pool.

However fears have been raised over the possibility of radiation in seawater near the reactors in northeastern Japan, with reports that some radioactivity has been detected in the sea.

Experts are concerned about sea water that has been used to cool the reactors and their spend fuel ponds after the 9.0 magnitude earthquake and subsequent tsunami on March 11.

Radioactive iodine in the sea samples was 126.7 times the allowed limit, while caesium was 24.8 times over, Kyodo news agency said. But TEPCO said that still posed no immediate danger.

"I'm interested to know how this water is being disposed... if it is being disposed or just allowed to drain to sea," Najmedin Meshkati, a nuclear and environmental expert at the University of Southern California, told the Reuters news agency.

"This is now radioactive waste water. Has there been any measurement of its radiation effect?"

Officials have acknowledged that some of the water used to cool the reactors spilled back into sea.

Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director-general at the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, said the radioactivity in the sea could be both from water used to cool the plant and airborne particles from the reactors.

"Personally, I think the latter is more likely," he told a news conference.




That is from a 33-minute-ago news release from Aljazeera.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:53 AM

Reggie-

People in Japan are far more vulnerable to radiation leaks from this troubled nuclear power complex than people in the States or in Europe.


The transcript of from the Union of Concerned Scientists conference call on Monday, March 21, has now been posted. I find it all interested (go to the website and click on "nuclear") but here are some excepts:

INTRODUCTION

"MR. LOCHBAUM: Good morning. The power line that was run to the site on last Friday has allowed workers to attempt to start reenergizing safety equipment on Units 1 and 2. Those efforts have been slowed by the need to initially proceed cautiously because of the water-spraying efforts, both from the ground and from the air, into the spent fuel pools on Units 3 and 4. That required workers to shield the electrical cables and connections from the water that was being sprayed about. Then the efforts were further complicated by the fact that the hydrogen explosions or some damage within the reactor buildings hence required workers to run temporary lines to connect power from the line that was run to individual components in those structures. So, that's slowing down the efforts to restore a more conventional cooling system for Units 1 and 2. Units 3 and 4 continue to be the -- the priority continues to be spent fuel pool. Efforts over the weekend to get water back into the spent fuel pools largely succeeded. The radiation levels have gone down. There are indications that water in those pools has been restored and the temperatures have stabilized, whereas before, they were heading upwards. So, those conditions on 3 and 4, the spent fuel pools, have been much better than they were just a few days ago. On Units 5 and 6, the spent fuel pools have been -- their cooling systems have been reenergized. They're running. The temperatures have not only decreased, but there's now plenty of margin available that wasn't there just last week. So, conditions are improving across the board.

(snip!)

SPENT FUEL POOL DISCUSSION

REPORTER: Hi, folks. Thanks again for having these briefings. They're really useful. I'm going to ask sort of a design question. Can you talk really about whether the design of the Mark I, or Mark I, specifically the placement of the spent fuel rods containing fuel at a position that's largely above the reactor, made this situation worse. There's been a lot of sort of graphics about how these things are arranged. And in answering, if you could address whether the United States should be worried about this design in installed U.S. reactors.

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum. The arrangement with the spent fuel pool up in upper elevations of the reactor building was a contributing factor, but the larger factors were the fact that the spent fuel pool cooling system was not -- or the spent fuel pool cooling system was not designed to withstand earthquakes. A lot of support systems are also not designed to be powered off of anything other than the electrical grid. So, when the earthquake and tsunami took out the formal power and the backup power, it caused a lot of damage to equipment, nonsafety-related equipment or nonseismically supported equipment, at the plant, the pools were left with nothing that could cool the water.
In addition, the loss of some of the support systems, like the air system, meant that it was possible that the inflatable seals around the gates in the pools deflated and allowed water to leak out of the pool, plus that's in a not very robust building. Unlike the reactor core that's within a concrete wall that's four to five foot thick, it's up there with sheet metal siding around it.

So, in addition, if the water level in the spent fuel pool did drop below the top of the irradiated fuel and hydrogen was generated, inside the main containment building, there is systems to deal with hydrogen, to detect it, to measure what the concentration is, and to do something about it. In the reactor building, there is no such equipment to deal with hydrogen that's produced, and, therefore, the hydrogen explosions occurred. If we were in the situation that they were, the design didn't give the workers much chance to deal with the situation they faced."

I was shocked to read that these plants were licensed to function with no back-up coolant system for their spent fuel pools, in the event of a loss of power to the complex.

Evidently the 7th spent fuel pool, referred to as the common spent fuel pool, the one that is stuffed with older fuel rods, has elevated temperatures but not high enough to attract any concern on the part of plant supervisors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM

Give it to me straight doc. I can take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:37 AM

So, how long before we all start glowing in the dark and sprouting new limbs as a result of this fine example of modern technology?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM

"499"

Someone else can harvest the glory of "500."

Be my guest.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM

The amount of misinformation/lies and spin/conditional lies
is thick fast and furios by the nuclear industry, NRC, astroturf nuke advocates and governments.

Spin such as;
in a couple months the only radioactive products released will be that of Iodine 131.

It appears the spent fuel rods are not respondsible for radiation release but rather it was the sealed reactors that were vented for safety.



I have heard dozens of lies this week.

Remember they only have to fool the survivors.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:27 AM

The Japanese now estimate that the clean-up costs will be about $45 billion, most of which is covered by insurance. It's unclear if that estimate includes the construction of replacement reactors or alternative power plants.

Still no explanation from the Japanese of the steam seen yesterday from Units 2 and 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, which triggered a temporary evacuation.

I'm also not sure what the operational status is of Units 5 and 6 at this complex, whether they were also cooled by salt water which would render them useful for further operation. They are now reported in "cold shutdown" but there was also a period when temperatures were becoming elevated in their spent fuel pools.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42206728/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

Clarifies things a bit with a simple graph.

The reports of radiation contamination in the sea near the plant is causing concern. Seafood is to be tested. Whether or not the readings are dangerous, consumers will avoid Japanese seafood.

Re: the plants. Will any of them be usable after all the seawater that has been pumped into them? I thought the corrosive effects would be permanent? Anyone know?
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM

GfS-

"Do you think that more radiation leaked from the nuclear plants, than was blown into the air from Hiroshima and Nagasaki?..and that drifted to the Left Coast?..and which was 'dirtier'?"

There was considerably more worldwide fall out from the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and some different radioactive products such as Strontium-90, than say from the Chernobyl meltdown, explosion and resultant fire. The current event in Japan is incomplete.

I'm not sure what "dirtier" means in this context other than bad news for those downwind.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:07 AM

999... but they'll still injest leafy greens in Lotus Land. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM

The Canadian Press

Date: Monday Mar. 21, 2011 9:48 PM ET

VANCOUVER — Health Canada monitoring stations have detected a "minuscule" increase in radiation levels along the B.C. coast in the wake of the nuclear crisis in Japan but some residents weren't taking their chances.

Health spokesman Gary Holub said increased radiation levels were expected, and less than the increase in radiation levels Canadians would see naturally when it rains.

He stressed the increase posed no health risk to Canadians.

The agency installed nine additional monitoring stations along the West Coast late last week, as public concerns persisted about possible radioactive drift from Japan making it thousands of kilometres across the Pacific Ocean to North America.

Canadian health officials are reassuring the public there's no need to fear fallout from the Japan, but some residents of B.C. remain nervous.

A number of military surplus stores around Vancouver said they fielded an average of 30 to 40 calls a day from alarmed citizens asking for geiger counters to measure radioactivity, "baby gas masks," potassium iodide supplements and suits to protect them from hazardous materials.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:06 AM

Do you think that more radiation leaked from the nuclear plants, than was blown into the air from Hiroshima and Nagasaki?..and that drifted to the Left Coast?..and which was 'dirtier'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:56 AM

A typical meeting in which an engineer is educated to the way things are by the money men representative...

We are all proud to bring on line El Gordo Grane plant built with taxpayer money and only 400 billion dollars over budget. THis is the safest plant built in the last 30 years.
The nuclear power plant located in the volcanic crater of El Gordo Grande is built to withstand a 1 in 10,000 years possibility of an eruption.

"But sir isn't the half life of the nuclear fuel many times 10,000 years, if the...?"

You are looking at the mathmatical nuke accident impossibility model all wrong. You see 10,000 years from now the risk is still 1 in 10,000 and we get another free 10,000 extension.

"I don't think so sir, I think that 3 mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima are all 1 in 10,000 year events and they are all blowing up an average of every 15 years."

Ah ha thats where you are wrong. You forgot to divide them by the kilowatt hours sold by every nuke plant in the world multiplied by all the man hours worked and raise that to the exponentially higher utility bills generated over the lifetime of the average nuclear plant that stays in operation 50 years beyond its design... and then run them all at 120% power instead of 70% ...by this formula a nuclear accident is only possible once in 3l6 million years!

"Then what do you call the FUkushima disaster?!"

A blip.

"Who is going to believe that?!

Don't be silly, the only people we need to fool are the survivors.
You are a survivor Harvey, aren't you ???

"yes sir"

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM

Q-

I love your digressions.

So the fact that more new reactors are being brought on line around the world, is that worrisome? Or is it just a fact of life?

Actually, I'm convinced that the next generation of nuclear reactors will be safer and more efficient but why development them when if we wait another ten years there will be an even safer and more efficient model?

The problem with all nuclear power plants is that if they go bad, it's very bad.

Moreover, even without a major accident, all models of nuclear reactors in use today leave us with the problem of storing high level nuclear waste for ten thousand years or more. Yes, there's the option of reprocessing spent fuel rods but that process is also risky while inevitably producing even more radioactive waste.

The only safe place to generate nuclear energy appears to be the sun, and even that's not reliable in the long run.

Let's go back to whale oil before it's too late!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM

Digression-
South Korea, mentioned above, is one of the larger players in nuclear technology. It recently sold 4 of its reactors in the United Arab Emirates for $20 billion. In South Korea, 21 reactors provide 40% of the electrical power, by 2030, 60% of the power supply is projected to be nuclear.

China has 13 reactors, with 25 under construction and many more in planning stages. Those under construction are "the World's most advanced."
Articles in www.world-nuclear.org

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/

I downloaded IE 9 and it doesn't like the link maker so there will be fewer blue clickies from me in the near future.

BTW... don't download IE 9... it'll crawl up yer system and plug it up. And ya can't get rid of it even though they say you can unistall the update. Took me three hours to get my system running again and I still have the piece of shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM

I disagree. Watch NHK Japan and you may feel differently.

Just sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

We do not need to be overly concerned about present rates, it is clear. We do not know what future rates will be, if there is a worst-case scenario, and these rates are going to be cumulative. And part of the problem is with perception..we just do not know what will happen or what the long-term effects will be.

We know a couple of things...there is no truth beyond what can be forced out of them. There is some sort of ingrained paralysis, and the head honchos seem incapable of getting the next situation prepared for even as they deal with the present one. Why have they waited until now to order spare parts and new generators? Would that not have been among the first things they did? They need outside expertise it is obvious. They need to be told in no uncertain terms the world does not trust their honesty or their mechanical comprehension or geological information if they could not figure out a big tsunami was coming, as every school child on west coast of US knows.

One good thing to come from this, as came from the banking fiasco, is that the wizard of oz has to come out in the open and defend his or her behavior. And there is not just incompetence that will be exposed but layer upon layer of corruption. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:03 PM

Q-

Radioactive cesium has a half-life of 30 years, which doesn't mean that it's harmless after 30 years but that half its radioactivity has dissipated.

"If the Fukushima complex can be stabilized in the next couple of weeks, no sky is falling scenario need be invoked."

That seems a big "IF" to me given what has already happened at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

Three reactors are partially melted down
Three reactor buildings have their upper sections and roofs badly damaged
Four spent fuel pools are most likely low on coolant and are still boiling away.

The best case scenario will be stabilization known as "cold shutdown."

However, the clean-up costs will be billions of dollars and, if Three Mile Island can be used as a guide, more than ten years to accomplish.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

No serious radioactivity affecting anyone outside of the immediate vicinity of the Fukushima complex yet.

Were east coast fish stocks affected by Three Mile Island? Or Mediterranean fish by Chernobyl*? It pays to keep speculations within context.
*(Fish in lakes near Chernobyl may have measureable radioactive caesium, but dilution in oceans or large seas would render the amount immeasurable).

One gets as much radioactive bang from one CT Scan as from a year's exposure near the Fukushima complex at present rates.
Comparable rates- A whole body scan exposes one to 720 mSv/ hour and the highest measured at Fukushima complex was 420 mSv.
Dr. Jeffrey R. Toney, reported in http://scienceblogs.com/deanscorner/2011/03/fukushima_radiation_levels_or.php

(Radioactive iodine has a half life of 8 days but the caesium is much longer (forgotten, but in press items recently)). I think Charlie could fill this in.

If the Fukushima complex can be stabilized in the next couple of weeks, no sky is falling scenario need be invoked.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM

At the very least this has shaken relations I would think with their neighbors, putting Chinese, Koreans etc. at risk..if not from air from their fisheries, if it comes to that, as who is to say it could not..will affect fisheries here as well if there is even the thought of radioactive fish. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM

The IEA statement raises questions for me. But there is no sense posting those questions because there are at least 6 scenarios with a number of variants, all conjecture at this point, among at least 4 of the reactor buildings.

Truely horrific for people of Japan... and as has been stated many times, perhaps far more reaching than Japan depending on how these scenarios play out.

As SINS has said, the front line people are selfless heroes. I was moved to tears today watching NHK TV interview some of those people. One man said he is risking his life to save his children and all the children of Japan. If that don't tear ya up....

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM

Here's an excerpt from the Union of Concerned Scientists daily briefing (I urge everyone interested to review each transcript) which emphasizes their continuing concerns:

"The IEA and others have reported that Units 1, 2, and 3 have had their cores at least or approximately half uncovered, and this has probably been the case since shortly after the initiation of the accident. So, it's been at least several days that at least 50 percent or the upper half of these cores have been uncovered. Now, that's a longer period of time for the situation than the core at Three Mile Island experienced, and the upper parts of the cores may have experienced significant damage. What may have happened is a swelling of the fuel rods that could cause a potential -- reduce the ability of coolant to actually get between those rods if the core is reflooded. So, the situation may not be -- these cores may not be as easily cooled as they would have been if they were undamaged.

Another issue that may have come up is the embrittlement of the zirconium cladding. When the zirconium becomes uncovered, after it expands and balloons, it can become oxidized and eventually becomes embrittled. If the core is then reflooded with water, that could cause cracking of the zirconium and release of fuel particles in what's called the debris bed. This was seen at Three Mile Island. The debris could then sink to the bottom of the reactor vessel, where it might then begin an attack on the steel of the reactor vessel. Also, it makes the configuration of the core, again, harder to cool.

One should also note that if part of the core fuses into a single mass, that it is, again, harder to cool the entire mass, and even if you get coolant on the outside of this mass, the central line may continue to heat up and eventually liquefy at the center and then drip down, again, to the bottom of the vessel. So, the fact that the cores have experienced some damage raises questions about the efficacy, even if the cooling is restored and they're reflooded."

They haven't posted the transcript of today's briefing but it should be available later today.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM

The smoke at reactor 3 caused workers to evacuate. At 5pm it had decreased and Tepco engineers were trying to determine the cause. Temperature and pressure remained the same.

Japan Times says the focus of on-site work is to restart the separate cooling systems at each reactor to keep cores and spent rod pools from melting down.
Checking of electrical system at No. 2, the first to be reconnected to the power center from new cables, continued. Power to monitoring system and air conditioning may be completed Monday.
Prime Minister Naoto Kan said progress was slow but teady. "Now we see some hope of getting out of this crisis situation."

Two tanks arrived, tasked with clearing contaminated debris blocking access to key installations.
Smoke from No. 2- No comments yet on cause.

Digression- Economists say reconstruction in Japan estimated at $235 billion and a 5-year effort. Buffet is strong on investing in Japan.
Reconnecting and rebuilding of power grids may end rolling blackouts on Tuesday.
Car and some other plants are re-starting production as power and other needs are met.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM

Ooops! 2 emmitted steam from a crack in the roof, then smoke from 3 for two hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM

NHK... Last two (3,4) to have power connections Tuesday. 2 emmitted steam from a crack in the roof, then smoke for two hours. Spraying was stopped. Spraying operation for today was cancelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

Q... all I said was that they could have run a cable from the control centre main panel to the point of connection and had it ready for use when they completed the 1.5km feed rather than waiting until after the feed was in place.

As for perhaps not knowing if the exising control centre primary supply circuit was u/s until the 1.5km feed was in place, someone should have checked the continuity long before that.

Of course, I never did mess much with electricity... it's too sneaky... ya can't see it! Oh, when I was a lad, I used to drag my feet over the carpet and touch my brother's ear lobe. Same with rubbing a baloon on my hair... not much chance of that now.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM

Some real concerns about contaminated food some of which may have actually been shipped to China or the US. Meantime 500,000 people are homeless. The evacuation area continues to increase.
Sad but true, the one good thing on Japan's horizon is the increase in construction which will provide employment as well as manufacturing jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:41 AM

What's happening at the spent fuel pool in Unit 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex is still worrisome: click here for update!

This update provides some of the best photos I've seen of the complex.

Power has been reconnected here but not switched back on (or at Unit 4) and since steam was observed coming from the spent fuel area, there was another evacuation of workers.

This is also the reactor which has plutonium mixed with uranium as a nuclear fuel:

"Japan's nuclear safety agency said pressure was rising in the most threatening reactor, No. 3, which contains highly toxic plutonium, and this may have to be released by 'venting' steam, a step taken last week that discharged low levels of radiation into the atmosphere."      

Another report I heard on the news late last night puzzled me, which stated that workers were "boring holes" in the Unit 5 and Unit 6 reactors to vent hydrogen. I thought these units were in "cold shutdown" and now had power fully restored. Anyone else see this report, or find a reference to it?

The spent fuel pool at Unit 4 also remains a continuing concern.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM

Not much hard info that I've been able to harvest today. Maybe that's good news or maybe everyone took the weekend off.

The Union of Concerned Scientists took the time to put on their website a comparison between "spent fuel pools" and "dry cask storage" for dealing with what to do with spent nuclear fuel removed from the reactor core. In summary, both storage methods are needed but there needs to be more emphasis on transferring spent fuel from the pools after it has cooled down enough in 5 or so years to dry cask storage which is far safer. Ultimately it would be best to transfer spent fuel rods to a central repository at a national level but that solution has been subject to delays for decades.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM

gnu, obviously you are unfamiliar with the scale of high voltage electrical grids and time needed for their repair. Because of quake damage, high voltage power cables were reconstructed from many kilometers distant from Fukushima. Heavy equipment and many electrical grid workers were involved over several days.
Pumps, relays, lines cannot be checked out until power is available and only when radioactivity is within safe limits. Connections must be tried one at a time carefully or subsidiary lines and/or equipment could be fried. That is why they started with lights and worked out (probably through checklist) connections one at a time.
Radioactivity danger to employees and resulting short working time limits complicates the re-installation.

U. S. Navy ships had backed off long before problems were diagnosed. In any case, there is no port at Fukushima reactor complex, and they would have to run waterproof cable through water, distance depending on offshore slope, to safe water depth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM

Q... "gnu- that is nonsense."

Nonsense? They could not get a feed to the control room in place and ready to connect to the new power feed before the new power feed was in place? THAT is nonsense. Why would you sit around with yer thumb up yer arse while the 1.5km feed was being put in place? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:33 PM

Well, if just one Lt. Military Engineer from the US Navy had been put ashore early on you can bet your bottom dollar that the electrical feed to the control room would have been in place before the 1.5km of power feed made it to #2 yesterday. I don't think they are "knee-jerk" enough.

Well, as it stands, the US Navy pulled back it's fleet at the first sign of radiation and we all remember Katrina when it comes to response to natural disasters so a bit of perspective would be in order here.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:23 PM

Japan's power grid and discussion of problems as a result of the earthquake-tsunami-

http://www.ikimap.com/map/04YF

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM

gnu- that is nonsense.
Directing flow through high power cables (which came from inland plants to the SW of Tokyo) through areas damaged by earthquake and tsunami took crews and heavy equipment several days- as it would if similar conditions obtained in the U. S. or Canada.

Power grids service large areas and needs of all must be considered.
Eastern Canada is connected to the American grid. See map of U. S. grid with connections to Canada-
http://www.npr.org/templates/story.php?storyId=110997398

A power grid map of Japan is also on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 02:53 PM

"We in North America are much more prone to knee-jerk reaction."

Well, if just one Lt. Military Engineer from the US Navy had been put ashore early on you can bet your bottom dollar that the electrical feed to the control room would have been in place before the 1.5km of power feed made it to #2 yesterday. I don't think they are "knee-jerk" enough. (Sorry to interpret/twist your words in such manner but it just seemed to fit.)

For those who may say that's 20/20 hindsight I say nay nay big time. This simple logistic fuckup is inane.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:45 PM

Japanese as a whole are a calm, reticent people. Their seemingly low-key comments on the on-going problems at the Fukushima complex is an example. Tepco and the government have been slow in providing information on the results of their corrective measures and there has been little censure from the Japanese press and public.

Included is the lack of sky is falling reaction to the tsunami's destruction. Providing shelter, rebuilding infrastructure to get supplies distributed, a start on building temporary housing, acceptance of rolling blackouts to save energy and other examples of their effective response are not loudly trumpeted.

We in North America are much more prone to knee-jerk reaction.

mg, firetrucks.
Realizing that the volunteer response by fire crews was causing possible life-shortening effects, they devised a relay system. Seawater is pumped to a relay 'truck', from which a hose is extended to the actual pumper. This removes the operator to a place outside the danger of strong radiation effects. More will be set up as needed. A diagram appeared in the Japan Times.
Except for the first day, when conditions were extremely uncertain, and workers were exposed, care has been taken to prevent serious exposure to radioactive materials.

The reticence to communicate does make it very difficult for anyone not involved in the corrective measures to evaluate what is being done and to be informed on the possible dangers if the corrective measures are inadequate.

I think all of us would like more information than we are getting.