BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:50 AM

NHK.....

Tohoku Electric Power Company says Thursday night's strong earthquake caused water to overflow from spent fuel storage pools at one of its nuclear power plants.

The power company reported on Friday that water had spilled onto the floor at all 3 reactors at the Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture. The amount of water spilled was 3.8 liters at the most.

The utility firm also found water leaks at 5 locations in the plant, including inside buildings housing the reactors.

The company added that blowout panels--devices designed to control pressure inside the buildings--were damaged at the turbine building of the Number 3 reactor.

The newly reported problems add to the downing of 3 of 4 external power lines at the Onagawa plant. The plant is maintaining its cooling capabilities with the remaining power line.

Tohoku Electric Power Company is continuing its efforts to determine the extent of the damage caused by the latest quake. But it says no change has yet been seen in radiation levels around the plant.

Friday, April 08, 2011 11:59 +0900 (JST)

Nuclear power plants and related facilities in the coastal areas of northeastern Japan were forced to rely on emergency power after their electricity was cut off in Thursday night's quake.

Operations have been suspended at all nuclear power plants from Aomori to Ibaraki prefectures since the March 11th earthquake and tsunami. But electricity is still crucial to keep their cooling systems operating.

Japan's nuclear agency says all external power lines at Higashidori nuclear power plant in Aomori Prefecture were knocked out in Thursday's quake. The plant switched to emergency diesel power generators for some hours, but power was later restored.

The quake shut down 3 of the 4 external power lines at Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture. It is still operating on the one remaining power line.

The Onagawa plant also suffered water leaks at 8 locations, including water that spilled from spent fuel storage pools at each of its 3 reactors. A device to control pressure inside a turbine building was also damaged.

In addition, the quake disabled all external power lines at a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant in Aomori Prefecture. The cooling systems here are still running on emergency diesel power.

Friday, April 08, 2011 14:01 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:49 AM

Fukushima's nuclear reactors became Japan's perpetually burning tire-yard fire, they have laid bare the fundamental flaw of Japan's "nanny state": the assumption that "father knows best" and that the public are children incapable of dealing with potentially dangerous situations.

In fact they show the exact opposite. What the phrase "nanny state" is supposed to evoke is the government meddling in things that are none of its business.

But the health of the entire nation and surrounding region ARE its business, and in this instance it was in dereliction of duty by allowing a private corporation to self-regulate and fuck things up without any public accountability.

This is another in a long string of PRIVATE ENTERPRISE catastrophes = Minamata, Bhopal, thalidomide, Eraldin, SMON, the Spanish cooking oil disaster, BSE in humans - which could have been prevented by governments being more effective nannies and just saying STOP to companies that were after a quick buck.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 01:42 AM

"Japan's Hitachi says because of the Fukushima disaster, it will decrease its plans for 38 new plants by 3030, but plans to remain in the forefront of reactor sales. President Nakanishi said the company has developed safeguards that would withstand the March 11 quake and tsunami.
Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, April 8."


The above info sounds like bulls#it to me. They have redesigned an entire reactor to withstand a quake AND tsunami in less than a month? If anyone believes that, I have a bridge you might be interested in . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:54 PM

Miskin is correct that there is nothing to be concerned about in any of the observations here, as long as there is a child or a person incapable of processing exactly what has actually happened. Radiation is normal, it may be accumulative but it is far away and well within all legal safety measure. NO one has eer been harmed by a nuclear plant.







However

The 'fear mongering of the worst kind' is usually the last defense for those who value economic adventures over life forms of every kind. It seeks to silence the whistle blower and vaccine the common people who just want to feel good that everything is under control

Well my friends I have seen with my own eyes the ravages of radiation poisoning. It was caused by injesting radioactive Iodine.
At the time of my sister's dath no fewer than14 surguries had been done which had removed digestive organs and tracts. She clung to life on a drip of ATP for 14 months. She got to hold her grand daughter but did not have the strength to keep her from sliding off out of her feeble grasp into the rails of her hospital bed.
With only an esophagus she would swallow and then spasm it back. No stomach, no rectum, no intestines. no gall bladder. She spoke in gentle tones and asked about things she always wonderd were true or not. I told here the truth as I knew it.

Yes I have an understandable passion regarding radiation, but for a cowardly sniper to slander all that I have told you here in this thread alone is ingnorant and dangerous.

I warned of the financial collapse and runaway corporate greed for 6 years until it struck, opps fear mongering of the worst kind I/m afraid.

Oops, I predicted an intractable war in Iraq without end, 2 weeks after 9-11 AND THAT WE WOULD LOSE!, fear mongering again.

Oops, I said the gulf spill was much worse than reported to life in the Gulf. At least the dolphins think so since 90% more of their babies have been found dead this spawning season.

Oops, Reactor 3 which had no walls or roof due to a prior hydrogen explosion suddenly explodes 10,000 ft into the air (watch the video)
You have seen a gigantic hydrogen explosion when the Hindenburg burst into flame.

Even a polyanna idiot can see that Reactor 3 looks and sounds nothing like a hydrogen explosion. A super heated steam explosion is more plausible.

Given equal amounts of gasoline, propane and hydrogen, and explode each one, Hydrogen is the LEAST volatile explosion. Gas is the second strongest and Propane is the most powerful explosion of all.

By all means ignore the nuclear physicist who showed incontravertible proof of core meltdown, breach and ongoing cycling fission events of extreme neutron radiation. He proved it by showing you the data on Chloride becoming an isotope. etc.



No Virginia that was not a hydrogen explosion.

4 reactors have melted down and at least one of them is undergoing runaway fission excursions which releases deadly neutrons which has been seen as flashes of bright blue light coming from the reactors.

Beside the fact that Plutonium debris is found all over the Fukushima site and beyond, there is the pesky fact that the Plutonium in the the reactor 3 and its adjacent cooling pond didn't just get up and walk away.

Yes I have a sideline of satire, a profession of therapeutic hypnosis and speak as directly as I can concerning disasters, and the policies that encourage disasters to happen.

When speaking to an individual with family members at risk, I am very even toned and respectfully aware that kindness in communication is paramount. But in a thread I just tell it the way it is without varnish.

Again...

If you are protecting the psyche of a child who may wander into this thread, by all means I am a fear monger. But for adults who want to know facts and feeling regarding the 6 reactors at Fukushima and 2 at Daiichi, I swear I have told the truth as I know it and as I learn it in every case.

well except for questions I may have or the poem of the 70 Samurai and the Dr.. Seuss Parody...and even those were based on truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:24 PM

What you believe is Ok by me. Its not like its going to change the fact that 4 reactors are in meltdown and the 10,000 ft tall shineing mushroom cloud was just hydrogen vapor exploding - inside a building that had no walls or roof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM

With regard to Miskin-

"So posting videos of an abviously non nuclear explosion and stating that it was nuclear is not scaremongering?"

(Gritting teeth) The hydrogen which ignited in an explosion in Unit 3 was a by-product of the meltdown of the fuel rods in reactor 3; the heated zirconium cladding chemically reacted with water, breaking it down into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas, and other gases were released which were radioactive such as Iodine 131 and cesium-137 and were expelled in the explosion. That process is evidently not scary enough for Miskin.

But Miskin is correct, there is not yet proof of a criticality event (nuclear explosion), just a radiation disaster.

What made the explosion in Unit 3 even more worrisome, however, is that its fuel was uniquely (we hope) laced with Plutonium. Fortunately, Plutonium is not volatile but deadly when anyone runs across some when they're scrambling around the wreckage of Unit 3 trying to stabilize the reactor and its spent fuel pool.

And it is possible that the reactor was breached in Unit 3 but we'll only learn that for sure 5 to 10 years from now.

Now, can I administrate a quiz on what Miskin learned from the Three Mile Island accident and Chernobyl? Or should we just take a vote on it?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:52 PM

Q-

That report from Japan will be quoted for years. It may represent a tipping point in how Japanese media reactions to major events.

Donuel-

The video of Unit 3 going KAPLOOIE is indeed explosive, and devastating to the crew that were trying to stabilize it. All for naught!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM

Construction of nuclear reactors continues apace. Sixty reactors are under construction in 15 countries, mostly in Asia.
World Nuclear Association, Jan. 2011.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.html

South Korea has 7 reactors under construction, and 6 more are planned, to bring the total to 34. Its reactor construction industry hopes to export as many as 80 by 2030 (estimate pre-Fukushima). It is building reactors in UAE and Jordan, and is pursuing contracts in Turkey, Malaysia, India, etc.
Reuters, March 28.
Along with Japan, they are major builders of reactors.

Japan's Hitachi says because of the Fukushima disaster, it will decrease its plans for 38 new plants by 3030, but plans to remain in the forefront of reactor sales. President Nakanishi said the company has developed safeguards that would withstand the March 11 quake and tsunami.
Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, April 8.

Westinghouse has a contract with China for $5.3 billion to build 4 reactors, two at present under construction. In the meantime, China has new designs for advanced reactors in the works. China is building a new reactor in Pakistan and has 2 more in planning stages for that country.

A pebble bed reactor, developed in China, is under construction at Rongcheng, China, started 1 April. Cooling is independent of outside sources. President of CNEG, to the China Business News.
Reactors already approved are not affected by the suspension of new licenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:18 PM

So posting videos of an abviously non nuclear explosion and stating that it was nuclear is not scaremongering?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM

MM... "I'm with you Gnu, Donuel is a scare mongerer of the worst kind I'm afraid."

Not what I said. What I said was I diagree with him and I want him to provide reasonable backup for his statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM

Gnu, thanks for the info on Canadian monitoring stations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM

I'm with you Gnu, Donuel is a scare mongerer of the worst kind I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:46 PM

Donuel,

Canada has not shut down it's monitoring stations. Read the Canuck webite.

No reactor blew up (yet). Look at the MANY pics and videos of the existing site. It's obvious... unless the pics and vidoes have been "photoshopped".

If what you say is true, provide actual proof. If not, it's getting to the point where I may ignore your posts. I think you have an amazing and insightful intellect but sommat just ain't right with some of your posts lately, unless you can provide SOME kindas backup... please?

Sorry dude but that's the way I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM

HYDROGEN EXPLOSION MY ASS -THIS WAS A REACTOR

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:07 PM

"the public cannot or will not force the state to take responsibility for its mistakes. Ultimately, this is what breeds Japan's undying fatalism"

True. So we must from overseas. If not for the Japanese, for the Koreans, Russians, others who live nearby. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:04 PM

Listen to this reactor explode! This is the video NOT shown in the US

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM

Couldn't cut the volume on the advertisements (occasional) at that site.
The readings today are in the normal range for the location.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM

Monitor from West LA
Radiation monitor Los Angeles

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM

Nuclear monitor data Canada

Gnu's link (I hope)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM

great posts



IF you have seen the movie 2012 there are many quotes that come to mind.

"When they tell you not to panic, thats exactly the time to panic."



I am deeply troubled by the fact many radiation monitoring installations in the west and virtually all of Canada are not reporting or are shut down.... WTF !

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20110405ad.html

In this column in the Japan Times, author Debito Arudou takes aim at TEPCO, the Japanese government, and most of all at the attitude of the Japanese people.
The translation is not perfect but his points come through.

A few quotes:
After praising the government for accepting foreign aid , rarely acepted),

"But here endeth the praise. As Fukushima's nuclear reactors became Japan's perpetually burning tire-yard fire, they have laid bare the fundamental flaw of Japan's "nanny state": the assumption that "father knows best" and that the public are children incapable of dealing with potentially dangerous situations.
The reflexive, obsessive control of information has done our people a great disservice."
"Let's start with the Tokyo Electric Power Co. They kept us woefully uninformed (to put it mildly) aboyt the stricken reactors. Some say that leaking limited information is standard operating procedure for the nuclear industry worldwide (justified under "avoiding public panic")........
"Tragically, TEPCO kept such a tight lid on information that not only was our government kept in the dark, but so were worldwide nuclear experts."..........
"While Japan's media cartels as usual skimped on investigative journalism, overseas and online media, running on fumes, had no choice but to fill in the gaps"........

"Criticism shifted from those who caused this incident to those who wanted to do something about it. People moving to safer locations were treated as deserters. ".....public began to tune out and adopt a sense of futility and fatalism, even as radiation levels rose and contaminated the food chain."
".........Sometimes the government's advice was so unscientific that it tried the patience of an educated society. (In a land of poorly insulated housing, being told to "just stay indoors" is clearly stopgap)."

"My point is that the public has been kept in the dark for generations about the risks of nuclear power,.....)"
"....TEPCO... similarly botched things after radiation leaks at Tokai...in 1999 and... in Niigata Prefecture in 2007. Yet these Homer Simpsons remainin charge,..."

"Nor will the government be held accountable, despite abetting coverups...... Part of it is due to the lack of class-action lawsuit mechanisms in Japan's judiciary, and the fact that judges almost never rule against the government."

"This is a society, remember, that has never experienced a popular grassroots revolution in its history. The result is that less cultural value is placed on fairness and social justice, more on personal perservance and knuckling under- even if that means the environment gets poisoned and people die, either as volunteer fire department heroes........"
......
"the public cannot or will not force the state to take responsibility for its mistakes. Ultimately, this is what breeds Japan's undying fatalism."

Extracted at some length because these articles tend to disappear after a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM

Please note that starting April 1 2011, the daily dose data will be available for select station across Canada and will only be updated 3 times a week; however, Health Canada will continue to monitor the data on a daily basis.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/ed-ud/respond/nuclea/_data/surveil-eng.php

So, shutting down does not appear to have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM

The latest from Japan Times posted in the other thread.

Power disruptions and injuries reported, but number and severity of injuries not known yet.
Trying to re-raise the Japan Times now but not will not display.

NHK also reports two of three outside power lines, used to cool nuclear fuel rods at Onagawa have been disrupted- NISA is "trying to confirm the current status at the plant."

NHK articles do not mention the problems at other reactor plants that were described in the Japan Times.

Onagawa is a few miles north of Fukushima.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM

Here's another excerpt from a NIRS press release from yesterday:

UPDATE, 3:30 pm, Wednesday, April 6, 2011. The New York Times has an important front-page story today on a still-unreleased U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission assessment that indicates the situation at Fukushima remains extremely serious, that some of the measures Tepco and the Japanese government have taken have caused unanticipated repercussions and new problems—in particular new stresses placed on the containments that places their ability to withstand earthquake aftershocks in doubt, and ongoing concerns about the possibility of more hydrogen explosions at the site.

The article also states, "The document also suggests that fragments or particles of nuclear fuel from spent fuel pools above the reactors were blown "up to one mile from the units," and that pieces of highly radioactive material fell between two units and had to be "bulldozed over," presumably to protect workers at the site. The ejection of nuclear material, which may have occurred during one of the earlier hydrogen explosions, may indicate more extensive damage to the extremely radioactive pools than previously disclosed."

And the article adds that the NRC believes there was a hydrogen explosion at Unit 4's fuel pool, which caused major radiation releases. NIRS notes that we still have not seen a single radiation reading—official or unofficial--from inside the evacuation zone.

(SNIP!)

Ugh!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM

Ahhh... enough is toooo much.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:06 PM

gnu-

We don't really need another nuclear power complex running rogue from an earthquake. Enough is enough!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM

NHK...

Japan's nuclear agency says the quake on Thursday night disabled 2 out of the 3 outside power lines used at the Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says the plant has been using outside power lines to cool its nuclear fuel rods since the March 11th quake. The agency says after Thursday's quake, the plant is using only one remaining power line.

The agency says there is no change in radiation levels around the plant as of just after midnight Thursday. The agency is trying to confirm the current status at the plant.

Friday, April 08, 2011 01:30 +0900 (JST)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:12 PM

http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/pulse/cartoon-April-2011.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM

Aussi, c'est vrais. Jaysus!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM

Aussi, ces't vrais.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM

Since the famous CIA formula for reality is Reality is Perception...
If Canada and the Western United States shuts down its radiation monitors...THERE WILL BE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT

no reports = no radiation.

c'est fascile.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:04 AM

We try again?

So 1 cubic metre of water weights about 2200 lbs. Check!

Therefore 35 cubic metres of water should weigh about 77,000 lbs or 34.3 tonnes. Check!

Therefore, in 335 days the entire inventory of 11,500 tonnes of water should be processed.

Hopefully, that answer is better. No more coffee needed!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:03 AM

The Guardian reports Japan was just hit by a 7.3 magnitude quake. No details as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:15 AM

From various places on the www--lest anyone think I understand this stuff.


Water

Weight: 62.416 pounds per cubic foot at 32°F
Weight: 61.998 pounds per cubic foot at 100°F

1 cubic meter = 35.3146667 cubic foot

So, 35.3 cubic ft in a cubic meter at 62.4 lbs a cu ft.

We then multiply 35.3 x 62.4 and get 2202 lbs or pounds.

Sea water will weigh a bit more because of the salt that's in it. These calculations are rough, and science people have these types of conversions programmed into their calculators.

Until the day she died my mother was convinced that when Canada went metric and that because Calgary and Edmonton had been about 200 miles from each other by highway, that since they were now about 300 km apart with the new measurement system, the cities themselves had got further apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM

999-

2200 pounds! Well, you folks are being very kind to me. A cube that's only 39.36 inches on a side...

Charley Ignoble.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM

A cubic meter of water weighs about 2200 pounds. There can be differences depending on the salinity of the water or temperature, etc., but not enough to affect the answer for the purposes here. Pretty much what Jack said below.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM

Jack-

You're probably correct. And I'll stay away from designing swimming pools or spent fuel pools.

So how much in lbs does a cubic metre of water weigh? Evidently much more than 56 lbs.

Charley Ignoble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:10 AM

The Union of Concerned Scientists have posted April 6 their summary of research relating to the impact of Chernobyl with regard to the incidence of cancer and cancer deaths: click here for report!

If one only considers the residents and emergency workers from the "more contaminated areas" 1986-1987 there would be about 4000 more cancer deaths attributed to the accident. If one includes the entire world affected by the plume, the number rises to about 34,000. The number I see reported by conservator commentators in the newspaper is generally 30 deaths, those of the first responders within a year of the incident.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM

Charley, please don't go into the swimming pool installation business.

I cubic meter = 100 x 100 x 100 = 1,000,000 cubic centimetres = 1000 litres (not quite exactly) = 1000 kilograms for fresh water, a bit more for salt = 1 metric tonne.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM

I'm going to try to redo my math for processing 35 cubic metres of radioactive water per day.
I think I got lost in conversions above.

So 1 cubic metre of water weights about 56 lbs. Check!

Therefore 35 cubic metres of water should weigh about 1960 lbs or .875 tonnes. Check!

Therefore, in one year 319 tonnes of water could be processed. Check!

Since there is an inventory of 11,500 tonnes of water to be processed, it would then take 36 years to do the job, not 10 years as I posted above.

Hopefully, that answer is approximately correct. More coffee needed!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12992284

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 11:01 PM

Jack-

I was assuming that the Russian radioactive waste processing ship would only be dealing with low-level radioactively contaminated water. With regard to the highly radioactive water under the reactors, I believe they intend to store them in place. It's true that the bricks produced by the ship would be very radioactive but still not classified as "high-level nuclear waste"; that designation is reserved for spent fuel and reactor components. I realize I'm shifting from the absurdity of this situation to better defining what we're dealing with.

The Russian ship is a helpful asset, assuming that it really works. My math exercise above, however, demonstrated that it would take a lot of such ships to get the job done in say less than a year.

Q-

"U. S. government engineers helping with the crisis in Japan are warning of fresh threats"

That's very interesting information, and quite appropriately alarming. There is still a major chance of another hydrogen explosion or even a criticality event.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:20 PM

Some mention today of dangerously radioactive pieces strewn as far as a mile from the plant from explosions. Also, radioactive corpses not yet collected.

The reports I have seen on people in shelters seem to show that people are crowded and uncomfortable but safe and fed. Schools are re-opening.

The Japanese economy must be in a shambles with so many places shut down and so many out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM

I'm still haunted by what to do with thousands of "radioactive cement blocks."

They have a rather better chance of staying where you put them than a radioactive lake or a cloud of radioactive steam, which are the alternatives.

With that throughput, it looks like the Landysh/Suzuran is designed to cope with fairly high-level waste, substantially more hazardous than what's been let out to sea. There is a lot of that to deal with. It may not be the complete solution but it should be a useful extra resource.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:27 PM

insights from ex-governor of area

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110407a5.html

This is all very important, and obvious, because you can not have possible scoundrals running this in such a way to protect people from discovering things, as well as more generic incompetence. LWhy are they allowed to present their own data and measurements? Where are the universities at least sending out parallel measurements? Why are they just allowed to "do" things without supervision or outright takeover? Some things, granted, have to be done in emergency situations..so some things are unavoidable..but they all have huge repurcussions with their own people, their neighbors etc. Huge diplomatic problems going on here, and are they even informing the government, which seems subservient to them, of what they are doing? Probably more now, but totally? South Korea was upset it was not informed of stuff..have they informed North Korea? That is a ticking time bomb, and 1/4 of its population is facing starvation I have read. I am not writing a term paper here, so look it up yourselves.

I know some people are saying don't kick them when they are down, let it play out first and then judge them. Not me, not when lives, fishereies, atmosphere, economy and world stability..i.e. think North Korea..is at stake. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

from npr on various aspects

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/06/135175611/in-wake-of-nuclear-crisis-tepcos-plans-questioned

Oh NPR you are wrong to say tsunami size could not have been predicted. Pooey..they are predicting way worse for the west coast of USA all the time..I have heard 70 feet, I have heard 20 to 30 feet..they told us on the phone call to evacuate that a tsunami here could be up to 10 feet..unclear whether it would have been a big rush, or as some people prefer to think, a gentle filling like a bathtub. That would be my preference and is often suggested as to what will happen here. But they don't know..Brookings OR got smashed in this tsunami, as did I think Redwood City CA..the harbors anyway and fishing fleets. Oh absolutely and positively anyone over here could have said expect a 40 foot tsunami at least with a 9 earthquake..

As to evacuees etc..I imagine things are way better now..but why keep elderly in those conditions that long? As I said about the second day..get them to a cruise ship and drive them around for a while if you have to..ask nursing homes or even shelters with heat and water farther away to take them. Get them to a city out of danger and arrange for family to take them if possible. Ask strangers, screened, churches etc. to take them into homes. Ask other countries..I said I could take two younger women as I live in a tiny cabin with an attic room they would have to climb into..lots of people would take in families with small children. Colleges could find room for college-age students...there was no excuse for some of the delays and suffering..when people are possibly pinned under a refrigerator with a broken back and mud in their nostrils you do not have the luxury of time. You have to move fast with everything you have and call for outside help and certainly not turn down trained help, as they did, on your doorstep, which they were. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM

Much is being done to help survivors, and refugees from the effects of the tsunami and radiation, but the American press doesn't cover much of it.
Look at the online English versions of the major Japanese media, or Japanese TV if your cable company carries it.

Japan, along with South Korea, are the most "wired" nations, with countless small news media, private as well as government television, and most Japanese use cell phones and internet heavily.

The problems of assistance and reconstruction are many, the costs are estimated at $300-600 billion, and a long time before anything approaching normality returns.

Looking at Katrina, I doubt that the response in the U. S. would be as good.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

U. S. government engineers helping with the crisis in Japan are warning of fresh threats that could persist indefinitely, and may increase as a result of the very measures being taken to keep the plant stable- a document prepared by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
1. Mounting stresses on containment structures as they fill with radioactive cooling water.
2. Possibility of explosions inside containment structures due to release of hydrogen and oxygen from seawater pumped into the reactors.
3. Flow of fresh water meant to cool the nuclear cores are impeded by semimolten fuel rods and salt buildup.
4. If fuel continues to heat and melt because of ineffective cooling, that could leave a radioactive mass that could stay molten for an extended period.

The document appears to rely largely on date shared with American experts by the Japanese.

The document suggests that fragments or particles of nuclear fuel from spent fuel pools were blown up to one mile from the units and a piece of highly radioactive material that fell between two reactors had to be bulldozed over to protect workers at the site.

David A. Lochbaum, who now directs the nuclear safety project at the Union of Concerned Scientists, said the welter of problems revealed in the document made a successful outcome even more uncertain.

Steps recommended by the nuclear commission include injecting nitrogen, inert gas, into containment structures in an attempt to purge them of hydrogen and oxygen, which could combine to produce explosions.
TEPCO is taking steps to inject nitrogen into one of the containment vessels.

The document also recommends adding boron to cooling water to prevent the cores from restarting the nuclear reaction, a process known as criticality. The engineers who wrote the report did not consider this likely, however.

The document, prepared for the commission's Reactor Safety Team, which is assisting the Japanese government and TEPCO, is based on numerous Japanese and American organizations (listed).

The document contains detailed assessments of each reactor.
The article contains some of these details, and is worth reading.

"The U. S. Sees Array of New Threats at Japan's Nuclear Plant," James Glanz and William Broad, New York Times, April 5, 2011.

The U. S. experts working with the Japanese update the report regularly; little substantial has been added since March 26.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:44 PM

Read that the leak has been stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM

This all makes pretty grim reading but is anybody doing anything, or even thinking about the thousands of ordinary decent human beings who are suffering so badly in the aftermath of the tsunami. I'm sure they worry enough about today without dreading the future. I hope their lack of radio and TV means at least that they may be spared the worst of the stories.