Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM

well said Jim.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:11 AM

In another Peter Kennedy thread, it was suggested that if he should have been the head of a University department. This shouldn't go unchallenged.

Folklore collection is about more than making recordings. Respect for the contributor, the ethical issues surrounding the way individuals are treated and their material used are far more significant than accumulating material. And also form key aspects of courses on Fieldwork in Folklore.

What example would Peter Kennedy's practice and ethics have provided to any students he taught fieldwork?

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:23 AM

Respect for the contributor, the ethical issues surrounding the way individuals are treated and their material used are far more significant than accumulating material."
   That was my whole point about the way he treated me., Anyone who cant be bothered to make a phone call to ask permission to use a recording[ as is demanded by law],is showing a lack of respect and courtesy, and is behaving in a devious manner,which would arouse the suspicions of even someone as Naive as myself, and cause me to suspect that they were bootlegging for financial gain.
my names not green, neither is it greenhorn.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 09:31 AM

Unable to answer for Peters Folktrax activities one way or another but do recall playing a very early gig with Colin Wilson at the Cider Press and forgetting my capo. Peter lent me one from the small music shop he had there and then told me to keep it at the end of the night. A generous gesture.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM

It should be noted - just as fact and in defense of nobody - that much of Kennedy's collecting, like that of even more famous collectors like Sharp and the Lomaxes, took place at a time when the ethics of collecting had not been much debated. Frank Proffitt apparently never got a dime from the Kingston Trio's zillion-dollar version of "Tom Dooley" in the 1950s, and few professional folklorists were terribly bothered. I believe that that case was something of a catalyst in galvanizing a higher level of professionalism among folklorists. In countless other cases, collectors made money (usually rather little) and source singers got nothing except thanks and a beer.

A bare handful of people may have done it, but the idea that collecting folk music was a good way to get rich is fantasy.

The legalistic sense of the era was that the songs, when found, were in the public domain, the informants didn't own them, and the collector's efforts in finding, researching, editing, and publishing was entirely value added, with nothing legally or ethically due the original singer.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 12:51 PM

Peter Kennedy once made me a cup of tea and gave me half a peach with some yogurt.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:02 PM

Lighter wrote:-
"Frank Proffitt apparently never got a dime from the Kingston Trio's zillion-dollar version of "Tom Dooley" in the 1950s, and few professional folklorists were terribly bothered.

I don't believe this to be true. I work with Jeff Warner on his multi-media show From The Mountains To The Sea and in the show Jeff tells the story of his parents, Frank and Anne collecting songs from Frank Proffitt. Here is a quotation from the script (as presented by Jeff but written by him jointly with his brother, Gerret :-

Frank Proffitt sang the Warner's three songs that first afternoon on the Beech: Dan Do, Moonshine and Tom Dooley. Later on, in '41, when the Warners stayed with Frank and his wife Bessie for several days, they had a portable recording machine made for them by Philco Electronics. There, at the house Frank built when he married Rena Hicks, the Warners recorded Tom Dooley and the beginnings of a 100 song repertoire from Proffitt's mountain past. Frank Warner was moved by the song Tom Dooley. He took it back to New York where he sang it for collector Alan Lomax, who included the song in his 1947 book Folk Song USA. The book and the song made its way around America, and in 1958, was recorded by a west coast singing group, the Kingston Trio, who sold 6 million copies of the song and, in doing so, helped to generate the folk song revival, which continues on a half-century later.
The story of the Dooley recording is long—and for another time—but Lomax' s publisher and the Kingston Trio's Capitol Records settled a suit out of court in 1962, and from that settlement, Frank Proffitt made enough to build a new house there in Watauga County.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:15 PM

".....took place at a time when the ethics of collecting had not been much debated.
Kennedy was still selling BBC material and demanding copyright on the use of traditinal song which he claimed were his right up to his death a couple of years ago.
One of his stunts was to get old singers to sign the rights of not only the songs they gave Kennedy, but "anything they might remember in the future" - not worth the paper it was written on but country singers were not to know that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

I know that one track indisputablely recorded by Alan Lomax, and in the fashion of the times exchanged with Peter Kennedy, is despite polite protests still planned for inclusion in the new releases, and asserted to be co-recorded by Kennedy while he was hundreds of miles away.
And I have in recent years seen offered for sale on the Internet several CDs worth of other Lomax recordings - including ones I recently learned Lomax had in turn copied from BBC recordings [not made by Kennedy].
This discussion has been, fair enough, dominated by one recording, but as other discussions confirm he was at it all the time. He did great things, sure. That's no excuse.
NB

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:42 PM

I know that it's all very old hat now but it might be worth considering aspects of the list that Dick Greenhaus gives above.
He lists albums that CAMSCO has re-released (under license) and presumably he means licensed from Peter Kennedy and Folktrax. The list includes:-

Yankee John Galusha
Lena Bourne Fish
The Hicks Family & Friends
Tink "Tillet

Hmm, working on the Jeff Warner show mentioned in my previous posting, these names seem very familiar as singers included in the show.
Let's have a look at the Folktrax catalogue which is still on the web at http://folktrax-archive.org/index.htm and see what it says about these albums:-

GALUSHA, "Yankee" John - N.Y., USA\ Unaccomp singer\ 1940-1 - (1859-1950) Lumberjack & game-warden - was born at Thurman, Warren County, N.Y. His father, a farmer, fought in the War of 1812 and died in 1892. John became a lumberjack at the age of 16 and later as a fire-warden, game and fishing guide and forest-ranger. In this later capacity, he met the President and also the State Governor, He and his wife, Lizzie, lived at Minerva for over 60 years until she died in 1949, a year before John's death at the age of 91 -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner: Warren Co FTX-921 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Days of Forty Nine"/ "Springfield Mountain"/ "Lass of Glenshee"/ "Irish 69th"/ "The Cumberland & the Merrimac"

FISH, Lena Bourne - Vt., USA & NH, USA\ Unaccomp singer\ 1940-1- Her father was a lumberman in Vermont (1873-1945). Mrs. Fish was born and brought up in Black Brook, N.Y., daughter of Stratton Bourne and Cynthia Abel Bourne. Her father was a native of Vermont, a lumber salesman in the Adirondacks, supplying wood for the charcoal used in the ironstone mines. Since she did not like teaching, she became a housekeeper to a lady in Temple, New Hampshire, and eventually married her son, John Fish, who died in 1918. Then she moved with her 7 children to East Jaffrey, New Hampshire. and it was there that she recorded her large collection for the Warners in 1940, amounting to nearly a hundred songs. She hads already recorded for Helen Hartness Flanders, who taped half her collection and included 13 of her ballads in her book, "Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung In New England". #12, 13 and 33, taken from the Warner's collection, were published in Alan Lomax's Folk Songs Of North America - It was her particular version of Whisky In The Jar (#13) that became popular and is still the version most often sung by contemporary performers in the UK -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner, East Jaffray, New Hampshire 1941: FTX-922 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Gilgarrah Mountain"/ "Jolly Roving Tar"/ "Castle by the sea"

HICKS, Linzy & Winser - N C, USA\ singer/ dulcimer\ 1951 -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner, Beech Mountain: 927 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "A Poor Wayfaring Pilgrim"/ "Palms of Victory"

HICKS, Nathan - NC, USA\ dulc\ 1940 - Dulcimer-maker & player, nephew of Roby, who was Frank and Anne Warner's first contact Beech Mountain, NC in 1940 -- (dulcimer) with Frank PROFFITT (gtr) rec by Frank & Anne Warner (on paper disc) 1940: FTX-927 "Rock, rock, Old Joe Clark" & other similar items rec on tape in the 50s

HICKS, Roby & Buna - N.C., USA\ Singers/ storytellers/ banjo & fiddle\ 1941-60 - Roby, uncle of Nathan Hicks, who was the Warner's first contact when they wrote to him to order a home-made dulcimer, and Buna, Roby's wife, raised 11 children and both played fiddle, banjo and dulcimer. Roby also told stories and Jack Tales (See 928). Linzy was one of 9 sons, their only two daughters being Hattie and Rosa -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner (on paper disc) 1941 & tape 1951, Beech Mountain: FTX-923 & FTX-927 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "River of Life"/ "Top of Mt Zion"

TILLETT, Charles K. "Tink" - Roanoke, NC USA\ Unacc Singer\ 1940-51 - "Tink", and his son, Cliff, were Outer Banks fishermen at Roanoke and his grandson owned a fleet of deep sea trawlers. Mrs. Tillett's father kept the Bodie Head Light, where she was born. Martha Etheridge was her sister. Curt Mann lived at Mann's Harbor, which links Roanoke with the mainland. while the Culpepers were natives of Nag's Head -- rec by Frank & Anne Warner: FTX-926 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Somebody's waiting for me"/ Bony on th Isle of St Helena"

TILLETT, Eleazor - Roanoke, NC USA\ unacc singer\ 1951 - APPLESEED APR-CD-1035 2000: "Come, love, come"/ Talk & "The Jolly Thresher"/ with Martha Etheridge: "Her Bright Smile Haunts Me" FTX-926

So.... all these Folktrax recordings were a) made by Frank & Anne Warner and b) released on vinyl on the Appleseed label in the USA.

I presume, therefore, that Peter Kennedy had a proper license from Appleseed to release these in the UK and pay royalties to the artists concerned and that Dick Greenhaus and CAMSCO are happy that this license can be extended to them......

I do know that the royalties involved would be very tiny amounts and I will be very happy to retract my implications here if it can be proved that I am making wrong assumptions but there is some morality under question here.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 01:55 PM

To add to Vic's posting above,

The Tom Dooley story is told in 2 US histories of the revival - Robert Cantwell's When we were Good and Ronald Cohen's Rainbow Quest. They each show the complex situation about where the Kingston trio might have learned the song from.
Cohen says that Warner first heard Proffitt sing it in 1938, and Warner sang it and recorded it himself on his own album in 1952. Lomax had already published it in Folk Song USA in 1947, attributing Warner. Then The Folksay Trio recorded it. Dave Guard of Kingston Trio said he first heard it sung by a folk-singing psychologist auditioning at the Purple Onion. Guard copied the words from Dick & Beth Best's New Song Fest, published privately in 1948 and commercially in 1955 - this listed no copyright.
After the Kingston Trio's success, Ludlow Music, jointly representing Warner and Lomax, sued Capitol records which had listed the song as "Traditional - arranged Dave Guard". the result was that after 1962 (Tom Dooley was in the charts in second part of 1958) the royalties were split - presumably between Guard/KTrio and Lomax/Warner. In Ronald Lankford's Folk Music USA, he says that Warner then split his share with Proffitt.

But .... the song was recorded by G.B.Grayson, a blind fiddler from Tennessee, in the twenties. He was a descendant of the Grayson who was arrested for the murder.

It may seem strange that the law suit did not involve Proffitt. Or Grayson or his descendants? Or the original composer, whoever he was?

In other words, copyright in traditional music is a minefield.

Derek

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:28 PM

that was a response to Vic's earlier post, niot the one immediately above which he must have been writing when I was writing mine ....
Derek

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:48 PM

How much did ·a· Ewan & Peggy {it was on their Argo Long Harvest set}, or ·b· Simon & Garfunkel pay to Mr Anderson, the retired Teasdale, Yorkshire, lead miner, from whom THAT version of Scarboro Fair was collected in 1948, or to his heirs and assigns?

A mnemonic interest in G B Grayson, from a record of whose remastered on The Railroad In Folksong vinyl LP I learned The Red & Green Signal Lights, track 1 on my Butter&Cheese&All record of 1989 ~~ also on my Youtube Channel. V interested to learn of his connection to the actuality of the Tom Dooley legend.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM

Thanks for the info, Vic and Derek.

I recall an allusion to Proffitt and "Tom Dooley" in Time magazine around 1961. Even that not-terribly-progressive publication pointed out, ironically, the Trio's deserved financial success from "Tom Dooley" and Proffitt's lack of it. Possibly Time's mention was in connection with the lawsuit that was later settled out of court.

Time's point, that Proffitt's experience up to that time might indicate a real ethical issue, was well taken.

Naturally I'm not suggesting that Proffitt was "exploited" by anybody named in this discussion, or by anyone else, for that matter. And all I know of the suit is what's in this thread. As Jim and Derek observe, though, it's a minefield, and it was at least as bad in the '50s.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 03:49 PM

"How much did ·a· Ewan & Peggy {it was on their Argo Long Harvest set}"
Ewan and Peggy were employees of the BBC when the recording was made and as far as I know they never claimed nor received payment for any traditional song they sang (or do you know any different) - though I believe Bob Dylan did for Scarborough Fair.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:34 PM

Nit Picking again but Grayson was not arrested for the murder. Sheriff Grayson was the man that arrested Tom Dooley /Dula for the murder of Laura Foster.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM

and in fact DULA did not commit the murder.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:06 PM

Jim
I think MgM was referring to Ewan's collection of Scarborough fair from Mr Anderson. Wasn't that in the 40s? (I don't have a copy of The Singing Island in which that song is published I think). I've even heard it suggested that Ewan didn't collect it, and that Joan Littlewood (then Mrs MacColl) collected it. Is that correct?
Derek

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

Derek wrote:-
"(I don't have a copy of The Singing Island in which that song is published I think).

The note on Scarborough Fair in The Singing Island just says:-
From the singing of Mark Anderson, retired lead-miner of Middleton-in-Teasdale, Yorkshire. in 1947.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM

Jim ~~ What Ewan & Peggy got paid was not my question: what I asked was, did Mr Anderson, or any of his heirs, get anything when Ewan & Peggy recorded his song on The Long Harvest (for which they must have got paid by Decca Records, the BBC were not involved there]; or later when Sim&Garf rocketed that version into the charts (after Paul Simon had learned it from Martin Carthy, IIRC)?

~M~

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:32 AM

Georgina Boyes queries something that I said on another Peter Kennedy thread. I suggested that, in an ideal world, Peter Kennedy would have ended up as head of a University Department. I knew Peter when he worked for the EFDSS (I was his assistant for a year)and he was then held in quite high esteem by many people. Did you know him then Georgina? As I have previously said, Peter's copyrighting of songs, a system he got from Alan Lomax, was going on before I knew him and I never liked this aspect of his collecting work. But, and I will repeat this, the problems grew when he lost his job at the EFDSS. I certainly did not approve of what he did with the recordings, but, in a sense, can understand why he acted the way that he did. In an ideal world, Peter would not have lost his EFDSS job and would not have acted in the way that he subsequently did.

Some years ago Rounder Records issued three CDs of "The Folksongs of Britain". They, like the original LPs in the series, were full of truncated songs and the reviews, including ones by myself, were pretty scathing. I had a phonecall from Alan Lomax's daughter asking me if I would take over the series. I agreed, on the condition that the songs and singers were treated with respect. I contacted Peter Kennedy and told him what I wanted to do. But to no avail. Peter insisted that I should not issue the songs in their complete form (Don't ask me why he said that. I couldn'e figure it out!)So, sadly, I withdrew, suggesting some other people who might like to have a go at the reissues. Of course, nothing happened.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:08 AM

Oddly enough, I've never worked for the EFDSS, so came into contact with the results of Peter Kennedy's work through my own fieldwork in Castleton, Derbyshire from 1965. Even at that time, he was already gaining a questionable reputation and later rumours swirled around the 'real' reason for his sudden departure from the EFDSS.

From the point of view of people in Castleton however, it was his apparent thoughtlessness that caused them real difficulty. He made a series of BBC radio programmes using his earlier recordings but never contacted any of the people whose contributions he used to let them know about the broadcasts. In consequence, some people missed their chance to hear themselves (quite a big deal then) and more seriously, one family suddenly heard the voice of their recently dead father coming out of the radio and - as you might imagine - were thoroughly shocked as a result. Yes, it was lack of consideration for contributors' feelings, rather than anything more blameworthy, but the human results for contributors in Castleton were significant all the same.

He could also demonstrate amazing cheek. Once contacting Radio 3 to claim he'd been "shocked to the core" that a series I'd written and presented for them had not consulted him about the use of "recordings of traditional folk musicians, especially as many of them were in fact my own recordings".

Subsequently, he wrote to Manchester University Press (the original publishers of my book, The Imagined Village) demanding to know why I hadn't "sought the co-operation of the one living authority who has the necessary experience and knowledge on the subject [of the Folk Revival]" before it was issued. Because the book contained references to his parents, Douglas and Helen Kennedy and aunt, Maud Karpeles, he claimed that "on moral grounds" he should have "received a copy for checking before publication" and "a small royalty on sales or an outright sum based on the number of words employed". The publishers did not agree to this.

He also recorded at least one programme I made for Radio 2 off air and put it up for sale in the Folktrax catalogue. Perhaps I should have claimed "a royalty" for this, but he didn't choose to contact me about it.

I met him a few times and (even after the publications of The Imagined Village) we had perfectly pleasant conversations, particularly about Maud Karpeles. But claiming "moral grounds" for his actions and asserting his ownership of recordings he'd made while working for the BBC or recorded off-air can't be justified.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM

Good points, Mike.
as regards peoples behaviour, people have the potential to have both good and bad qualities, there is a valid argument that if someone is paid enough they do not have to behave in an undignified or deceitful manner, I would like to think that Peter might have fallen into that category.
most people would like to be remembered favourably and I am sure Peter would have wanted to be remembered for his better rather than his worst side.
unfortunately our system CAPATILISM and its partner in crime Consumerism ,often encourages the worst in people, it encourages people to be greedy and concerned with only their own material desires and needs, rather than treating other people in the way that the person might want to be treated himself

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:17 AM

Which brings me back to Topic records, were they not founded for altruistic reasons,as I understand The promotion of traditional music to be made available for everybody, particularly those without much money.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM

"He also recorded at least one programme I made for Radio 2 off air and put it up for sale in the Folktrax catalogue. Perhaps I should have claimed "a royalty" for this, but he didn't choose to contact me about it."
interesting, it rather confirms my suspicions, that his bootlegging of The Bald Headed End Of The Broom, was not at that time just for Private Study, and that the Private Study bit was added later, and like Georgina I was never contacted.
for People like Martin Graebe and Greg Stephens and Derek Schofield, to say this is ok morally beggars belief, it is not ok morally and this sort of behaviour on the folk scene needs to be eradicated along with dodgy promoters , have all those people that paid up front to go to Pickering festival been reimbursed?

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 AM

Mike:
"What Ewan & Peggy got paid was not my question:"
Sorry, was attempting to point out that Ewan and (I should have written Joan Litlewood, Peggy was not involved) Joan were employed by the BBC when Scarborough Fair was collected.
I have no idea whether the Beeb paid Mark Anderson for his song or for his time.
Ewan's use of the song on The Long Harvest:
Again, I don't know if they paid Mark Anderson's heirs (he would almost certainly have been long dead as he was described as "a retired lead miner at the time of the recording) for the use of the song, but I doubt it; as far as I know it was never the practice of revival singers to pay their sources for the use of traditional songs; they are, I believe, in the public domain and belong to no-one (or "everybody", as Walter Pardon put it). It is, as far as I know, not even necessary to inform the source singer that you intend to use his or her songs - the song we recorded from Mary Delaney, "What Will We Do" has been recorded at least half-a-dozen times without either us, the collectors, or Mary being paid, or even informed that it was going to be used and that is the way it should be as far as I am concerned. Walter certainly never received payment for any of his songs, though he was both amused and irritated at the same time on hearing of the squabble between two revival 'stars' over who should have the right to record one of his songs.
A quick shufti through our copies of The Singing Island, Scotland Sings, Folk Songs and Ballads of Scotland - all collections of songs compiled by MacColl and Seeger, shows that while the collection as a published work was copyrighted, the individual songs are not and are treated as being in the public domain. I know that this is what Ewan advocated, and as far as I knew, adhered to.
Kennedy, as far as I know, did the opposite: he claimed ownership on every item he (and others on the BBC project) collected and demanded payment for their use; Vic's story verfies this to be the case.
People in the know are free to correct me but Karl Dallas embarked on a series of ten very worthwhile themed songbooks, starting with 'Songs of Toil' and 'Songs of War', but was forced to abandon them after these two when Kennedy demanded payment for some of the items.
I have no idea of the legality of his claims, but I know some people paid up out of ignorance or just to avoid hassle.
I believe he got many of his singers to sign the songs over to him via a written 'contract'
I assume his rationale was that each version could be described as 'an arrangement'. If this is the case then the law of public domain cannot be applied to any folk song. The "arrangement" practice has always been a grey area for me anyway".
When MacColl, Seeger and Parker were recording for the Radio Ballads I believe they made a 'verbal' contract for the use of the recordings only . These were recorded on tape at the end of sessions - I have one somewhere here with Sam Larner.   
Derek- quickly:
The collecting project as far as I know was for a BBC programme called The Ballad Hunters, produced by Olive Shaply from songs recorded by Ewan and Joan (have the date somewhere I think).
I know it happened because, while Ewan seldom referred to it, I heard Joan talking about it once.
They recorded songs from Mark Anderson and Beckett Whitehead, among others, the most memorable for me being Scarborough Fair and Four Loom Weaver (which I suspect, Ewan heavily arranged), also Fourpence a Day. Ewan later ressurected 'Drinking' and ''T Owd Chap Cam' O'er the Bank' (an extremely bawdy version of Seven Nights Drunk).
Sorry - much more to say on song ownership which interests me deeply, but the bloody sun is shinging here and the acre of grass and weeds which we euphamistically refer to as a garden calls.
Maybe people are interested enough to continue this later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 08:40 AM

Can I make it clear, once again, to the readers of this thread that I have not stated that I condone bootlegging, which I defined earlier in this thread. Dick Miles aka GSS, take note!
Derek

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:04 AM

Derek, it clearly states on the record[and this is the purpose of PPL], no unauthorised recording whatsoever, IT IS ILLEGAL, You defended people recording illegally for their own private use[I consider that bootlegging whatever your dictionary says, any how whatever you wish to call it, it is illegal.
   KENNEDY recorded at least one programme made by Georgina Boyes, and put it up for sale on folktrax catalogue, I am fairly sure this is what he did with The Bald Headed End Of The Broom, which appeared on his Folktrax catalogue, and which NOW says for private study only, but did not say that a few years ago, When I noticed it.
KENNEDY did record and sell things illegally, and the people on this thread who think he didnt do this to me also, have been unable to answer the question that if he wanted it for private use,why did he not give me a phone call or contact me.
Derek,Martin,Greg, it is illegal[and in my opinion immoral] to record somebody elses LP FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER without asking permission.
Peter Kennedy showed Georgina and me a complete lack of respect, in Georginas case he was selling the recording, I am convinced this is what he was also doing with my recording, although I cant prove it now., however he was behaving in an underhand and illegal matter.
IF YOU DONT AGREE, campaign for the abolition of PPL protection

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:06 AM

I'm still baffled. As a retailer who tries to be both honest and ethical, Am I to he held personally responsible for the behaviour of my supplierss? Or is it considered to be good thing that this music should be unavailable to the public?
I can only assume that what I buy for resale is the legal property of the publishers I purchase from, whether that publisher is Topic, or Smithsonian Folkways or Dave Bulmer or Peter Kennedy. I frankly have no idea of how to properly recompense source singers (the aformentioned Kingston Trio Tom Dooley owes at least as much to the Folksay Trio as it does to Frank Proffitt, who wasn't the first to record it in any case).
In any case, the amounts of money involved would likely be less than the cost of a pint or so at a festival pub.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM

Your reply re Mark Anderson surprised me not one whit, Jim; I had assumed that he would not have got anything. But did Ewan {or anybody} get anything from Simon & Garfunkel after Scarboro Fair went global in their version, after they interpolated it, for no reason, narrative, atmospheric, or whatever that I could ever fathom,into the soundtrack of The Graduate,a film about adultery & loss of virginity?

Don't expect so.

~M~

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 10:23 AM

Dick Greenhaus wrote:-
"As a retailer who tries to be both honest and ethical, Am I to he held personally responsible for the behaviour of my supplierss?"

Well, if you are really trying to be "honest and ethical", what do you think the answer to your question is?
If you know or suspect that your supplier operates in a dishonest way, are you happy to continue supplying that person's goods?

Dick Greenhaus wrote:-
"I frankly have no idea of how to properly recompense source singers"
Well, there are honest and ethical suppliers that try their very best to contact the artists who have recorded their traditional songs... or their descendants.

A singer finds out that their songs/music have been released or supplied by your business and they know nothing about it and they are unhappy about this. How does this make you feel?

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: greg stephens - PM
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

I have to admit to the dreadful crime of recording songs off radio folk programmes onto a cassette. The Good Soldier thinks this is a crime; I don't. I bet most of us have done the same. And have not the slightest objection to the practise. I am absolutely delighted that Peter Kennedy recorded a number of my own radio prorammes and catalogued them. Otherwise they would have been lost, the BBC was not specially motivated when it came to archiving their own folk recordings!
Peter Kennedy may or not have been guilty of some dubious practises. Putting his cassette recorder in front of the speaker for Folk on 2 wasn't one of them.Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe - PMFrom: GUEST,Derek Schofield - PM
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:57 PM

Martin and Dick (GSS) disagree on the cassette business.
Looking at the Folktrax archive, this is the entry:

BALD HEADED END OF THE BROOM, THE - "O love it is a funny thing - it affects both young and old" - ROUD#2129 - MERCHANT: Gargling Songster, Chicago, c1885 titled "Lines of Love" - RANDOLPH 1946 - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 p449 Martha Gillen 1954 -- Martha GILLEN, rec by Seamus Ennis, Co Antrim, 1954: RPL 21839/ FTX-019 & FTX-434 - Dick & Sue Miles Radio Folk on Two 1984 CASS 0453 --- Beach Mt NC: FOLK LEGACY FSA-23

If you look at this on the website, FTX19 and FTX434 are hyperlinked to Folktrax cassettes that Kennedy sold. Neither of them contains Dick's recording - they contain the Martha Gillen recording. CASS 0453 is not hyper-linked, suggesting to me that it was - as Martin states - a private recording that he made from the radio and kept as such in his archive. We've all done it. This all suggests that it was not sold. Now, of course, the recording might have been put on a Folktrax commercial cassette at some stage between 1984 and a while prior to Kennedy's death. I don't know. But that's not what the website suggests.

I'm no apologist for Kennedy. I knew him, we fell out, talked to each other again and fell out again. He did some dubious things with recordings, but perhaps not on this occasion.

Derek
Finally, I will remind all 3 of you, that the law states categorically, no recording whatsoever for any purposes, without permission, that is what PPL is there for.
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM

Sorry, Derek - I did, of course, mean you

And, Dick, I do see a difference between bootlegging and recording a programme off-air for later listening - and if you have never done it I would be surprised at your virtue relative to the rest of people I know.

m

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:26 AM

Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM

Sorry, Derek - I did, of course, mean you

And, Dick, I do see a difference between bootlegging and recording a programme off-air for later listening - and if you have never done it I would be surprised at your virtue relative to the rest of people I know.

m
the above post, should not have been there,
but since it was.
The law states, for no purposes whatsoever, without permission.
Kennedy did this to GeorginaBoyes for his own financial gain, he also did it to me,for almost certainly[imo]although I can no longer prove it, the private study [crap] has been inserted later,and if it was for private study he should still have contacted me.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:29 AM

"Don't expect so."
Sorry; still apparently mistaking your drift.
Anybody who was ever paid to sing at a traditional type club did so using songs they/we got from traditional singers (thought about starting a list here, but have neither time space nor inclination.
Anybody who made an album of traditional songs... likewise.
Anybody who published a collection.....
Anybody who learned a song from that collection and then makes an album or takes a fee from a folk club......
Should they/we seek out the source singers or their heirs before we take the fee?
Are you proposing that traditional songs be removed from public domain?
No - MacColl never received a fee from Simon and Garfunkle or Bob Dylan - according to Martin Carthy, Dylan got the song from him on a visit to Britain.
As far as my knowledge of the affair stretches, the American singers who hit the jackpot with the song paid nobody, almost certainly claiming royalties on the "arranged by" basis.
As I said, to my knowledge MacColl never claimed nor took payment for any traditional song he collected, not even those he built up from virtually nothing, such as Alan Tyne of Harrow.
I know he paid singers like Caroline Hughes, I know all the traditional singers who were included in the Radio Ballads received BBC cheques and assume that those included on albums like 'Now Is The Time For Fishing' received fees from the record companies.
What's your point?
Dick G:
I don't think anybody here is trying to implicate you in Kennedy's dirty dealings, certainly not me.
For me the problem lies with the behaviour of the collector - 'the original sin.'
The distributor, publisher, revival singer bear no part of the blame for what this particular collector did to his sources or to those of us who feel that these songs are part of our heritage and belong to us all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:40 PM

I'm not sure why Dick Greenhaus is taking flak on this thread. I know Dick to be an enthusiast for traditional song who is motivated more than anything else by the desire to make rare stuff (for which there is a market so limited that any profits are tiny) available to those enthusiasts who wish to hear it. This is the same person that pulled off the previously unimaginable feat of reprinting Bronson's Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads at an affordable price. Will Topic be held to the same high standards regarding Kennedy's 'collection' that are being demanded of Camsco?

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

"The law states, for no purposes whatsoever, without permission."

You might want to check that law again. In most countries that I know of, you are allowed to make a copy for personal use - but not for sale or distribution. Otherwise VHS, DVNR, DVD-R and cassette recorders would be illegal.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM

no, Ron, it clearly stated that on the back of the L.P.
PERMISSION HAS TO BE ASKED,end of story

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

What it actually says on the back of "The Dunmow Flitch" is:

"Copyright exists in all recordsissued by Sweet Folk All Recordings Limited. Any unauthorised broadcasting, public performance, copying or re-recording of such records in any manner whatsoever will constitute an infringement of such copyright. Application for public performance licenses should be addrsssed to ...."

so it is obvious that permission has to be asked for the recording to be played in public, but elsewhere there is, let us say, a slight touch of ambiguity.

PS. I bought my copy from Dick himself at the Willoughby Arms in Kingston.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:38 PM

"I'm not sure why Dick Greenhaus is taking flak on this thread."
He isn't - he appears to be assuming that he is being blamed.
"If you know or suspect that your supplier operates in a dishonest way....."
To be fair, throughout the time I have been involved in the music there has been little or no discussion on Kennedy's behaviour for a number of reasons - influential father (friend of royalty) and aunt being not the least of them, and his tendency to threaten to resort to law whenever he thought his position was being threatened running a close second.
Whatever information I gained on his behaviour was passed on in hushed tones behind locked doors - sort of!
I really think there was very little known of his behaviour outside a fairly tight circle of people who chose - for our sins - to do nothing about it
When he died an RIP thread was opened on this forum and when I contributed a few non-complementary points amid all the eulogies, the avalanche of protests that followed left me with the feeling that I had farted in church gradually building until I began to think I might have murdered John Lennon. If my memory serves Dick/GSS, it was you who administered one of the severest kickings.
Kennedy did what he did because we let him get away with it; some were more responsible that others (five letters, starting with E and ending with S), but in truth, those closest to the fire should have put it out before it took hold and did the damage. It seems a bit smug hindsightish to point the finger at somebody who I doubt was aware of these shennanigans.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM

Sorry I dont see an ambiguity,as I understand that,it means that kennedy re recorded and copied the record,and constituted an infringement.
I Remember the Kingston[FightingCocks] Folk club very well, I did my first booking there.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM

'no, Ron, it clearly stated that on the back of the L.P.
PERMISSION HAS TO BE ASKED,end of story "

Sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative - but that is NOT the end of the story. The law is pretty specific about what you can and cannot do with copies.

You can write anything you want on the back of an LP - do not listen to on Thursdays, you must listen to track 3 in the nude, etc. - none of it is binding.

Just for discussion, could you write the EXACT wording that appears on the LP?    I'm not trying to be picky or start an argument, but this is important to understand and I do not see the posting of these words.

This is a fascinating, and important, discussion.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM

Jim,yes,you are right,I did criticise you and I apologise.
my opinions have changed as a result of reading different posts on the subject of Peter Kennedy on this forum,there were a number of things I did not know about.
however,despite his discourteous behaviour as regards his recording my lp without my permission and putting it on his catalogue,I still see him as a Curates Egg., partly good, partly bad, but as a result entirely spoiled

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM

Sorry, I wrote my note before seeing Dave's post.   

I sincerely doubt that the UK law is much different from US law - you CAN make a personal copy for yourself IF YOU OWN THE RECORDING TO BEGIN WITH. You can also record OFF AIR if it for your personal use and not sold to others. This is not a violation of copyright. There is nothing unethical or immmoral about taping a radio program for personal use.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM

the exact wording is, Copyright exists in all records issued by Sweet Folk All recordings limited.
Any unauthorised broadcasting,public performance,COPYING OR RE RECORDING OF SUCH RECORDS IN ANY MANNER WHATSOEVER WILL CONSTITUTE AN INFRINGEMENT OF SUCH COPYRIGHT.
application for public perfomance licences should be adressed to PPL

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

Ron, you are wrong KENNEDY DID NOT OWN IT, the recording belonged to SWEET FOLK AND COUNTRY.
KENNEDY did not even collect the original song.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

If you have read right through the thread, you will see that he recorded Georgina Boyes Programme and had it for sale on his catalogue. I have already said this before but I will say it again I AM SURE Kennedy was selling my recording, and the private study, has been ADDED MORE RECENTLY.
KENNEDY, had already done it[acted imorally and illegally] at least once, see Georgina Boyes.
Ron I dont care about US law, we are talking about the UK.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:42 PM

I guess you know more than the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 PM

For the record, I did not say that Kennedy OWNED the recording. I was trying to establish how the recording was made and used and in what context personal recordings could theoretically be made.

This is NOT just about UK law.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:22 PM

Ron , please read all the posts all will be revealed.

Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM

100 sorry lead