BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)

Subject: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 03:39 AM

I thought it about time the forum responded to this atrocity.
I condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon.
Mudcat is like UN General Council and agencies.
Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 04:42 AM

Curiously, Keith, I am worried that the outcome of the overthrow of Assad could easily be a fundamentalist theocracy - and also I am worried that that is the way the wind is blowing in Egypt too despite the assurances at the last election there about the moderacy of the Islamic Brotherhood.

I don't have a problem with Islam as such - I do have a problem with theocracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Barb'ry
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:36 AM

What is happening in Homs at the moment is, indeed, an atrocity. It does not, however, make the atrocities carried out by Israel any less awful and worthy of condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 06:17 AM

Richard, Akeneaton has been making the point for some time that the Arab Spring may result in more Islamic regimes.
We can still deplore the deliberate targeting of family homes with heavy weapons.
Or, some of us can.

Barb'ry, this atrocity does not diminish any other.
Israel denies and defends against all accusations of atrocities by the state.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:58 AM

Yes, that worries me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:46 AM

Israel is a theocracy. So is Iran and Saudi Arabia. Technically so are England and Japan, where the heads of state are THEORETICALLY also the heads of the church. So is Vatican City, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:17 AM

To Rapparee. To analyse something is to identify the differences more than what very different situations seem to share. England, Japan, Israel, Vatica City, Iran all in the same bunch, all theocracies? What is the use of this thought?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 12:31 PM

I would have thought that a theocracy was a jurisdiction in which the church had power to decide civil matters - where the rule of man is subject to the "rules of God". I therefore don't think that England is   a theocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:41 AM

Nor Israel.

"outrageous bloodshed".
Obama condemns while Mudcat Left just pontificates about religion and politics, or ignores the massacres altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:48 AM

However, Keith, there certainly are sets in Israel who think that it should be a theocracy, and indeed until they are (my feeling is unenthusiastically and belatedly) stopped conduct themselves and oppress others as if it were. That is much rarer in England.

The Assad regime, while controlled by a small tribal group of a sect within a sect, is ostensibly and to some extent actually a secular regime which does not dictate or prohibit which foolish imaginary friend people follow (or what clothes they wear).

Conversely, those in uprising against his oppressive dictatorship may if successful replace it with something even worse.

The question of what to do and how to do it is difficult. In Iraq there was a UN resolution that maybe could be interpreted so as to justify an international invasion force (a bit like the dishonest expedient in Libya) - and while the Iraqi army was large and feared its technology was obsolete (as was Libya's). The Syrians are equipped with a large military (some 300,000 I believe - more than the UK if reservists are not counted) equipped by Russia with modern technology if not as fearsome as some of the US's stuff. That makes them a harder target for invasion in support of a revolution than Libya.

Obviously one would like to see free and democratic elections - but that is not going to happen with Islamism on the march (compare Egypt, think of the gynaephobic poster slogans during the election there).

Has anyone any useful plans?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:52 AM

Elect govts here which are prepared to tell the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 07:44 AM

That'd be a world first!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 11:08 AM

On BBC's Question Time last night, UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie claimed it would be unwise for the West to intervene in the Syrian situation - Alastair Campbell waffled and said nothing coherent. All claimed that Assad was preferable to any alternative Government - nnone of these could remotely be described as "Mudcat left" pontificating or othrewise.
It would seem that while the left is demanding intervention, the right are supporting the Assad regime with their inaction.
Ironically, comedian Steve Coogan was the only one on the panel calling for some sort of action.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: bobad
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 11:33 AM

It's difficult for people of conscience to accept the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people and the unwillingness to stop it because of the potential for another opressive regime taking power.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:30 PM

"It's difficult for people of conscience to accept the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people..."
Some people don't seem to have any problems with it unfortunately - "these things happen" I think was the term used in relation to the slaughter of Palestinian civilians not too long ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:28 PM

I didn't think Campbell was incoherent. Most of the programme Ann Leslie sounded as if she had been overly handy with the free gin in the green room, but on this point only she mentioned the fears of those with religions other than the Sunni insurgents of being subjected to repression on religious grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:50 PM

"The Syrians are equipped with a large military (some 300,000 I believe - more than the UK if reservists are not counted) equipped by Russia with modern technology if not as fearsome as some of the US's stuff. That makes them a harder target for invasion in support of a revolution than Libya. - Richard Bridge

"God is not on the side of the big battalions, God is on the side with the best shots" - so said Voltaire.

Syria armed and equipped by Russia indeed, that must be fairly novel for the region according to all those who swear blind all the arms in the region were handed out by Rumsfeld on his way to meet Saddam.

If the 300,000 Syrian Army (well at least those who have not already deserted) are armed by the best Russia can provide then they have nothing at all in their locker that matches the weaponry of the USA.

Who governs Libya is a matter for the Libyans, who governs Syria is a matter for the Syrians. Sad fact is that when a Government deliberately wages war on its own population the UN by its charter is compelled to act. Russia and China should have that fact explained to them and then be told - "Get with the programme abide by the charter or find yourselves expelled".

Sounds like the "typical" BBC Question Time panel it had only one person with any grasp of what is the right thing to do. The panel members? two politicians, the spin doctor who pushed for action in Iraq, a journalist and a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:23 PM

You all make me laugh. Do you really think "Islamism" can co-exist with Western "culture"....or what we claim to be democracy?

Personally, I dont give a flying fuck what happens to this bankrupt, corrupt and immoral society of ours, but at least I can see its nemisis when it stares me in the face.

You "liberals" live in fairyland, you want the best of all worlds and its not naivety....its the fact that you have swallowed all the political shit you have been fed for decades.
Does your ideology not permit freedom of thought? as well as proscribing freedom of speech and common sense.

I suppose I shouldn't laugh, but the idiocy of the support for the rebels in Libya, when we were being told daily that the Islamists were waiting to take over .....same in Egypt.

Reports of imprisonment and torture in Libya are starting to surface
Armed militia everywhere......a lawless shambles, all facilitated by Western involvement for a worthless ideology and greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:58 PM

"but the idiocy of the support for the rebels in Libya"
Islamophobic rant aside - it should be remembered that the Lybyan rebels were being slaughtered by British weapons that were still being supplied long after the revolt started - mustn't forget; the customer is always right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:17 PM

The Syrian government, like the Libyan before it, may be acting repressively, but it is not waging war (as neither was Libya) on civilians. Both were waging war on revolutionaries. A bit like the "war on terror" really, but less abstract. Both less clearly illegal than UK police murders of protesters (and even passers by mistaken for protesters).

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:31 PM

Note, I feel it is important for folks to see what is being presented on the internet to defend the Syrian actions. Because I am posting this, does not mean I share or endorse the perspective.


US, Israeli, Saudi involvement in Syrian uprising

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:48 PM

Confused yet? I am when I read this and the last one I posted. There is alot of strange theories out there

Religion -- the Overlooked Motive Behind Syria's Uprising

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:56 PM

An interesting perspective:

Population boom fuels the revolt .

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:09 PM

Lybyan rebels were being slaughtered by British weapons that were still being supplied long after the revolt started

What weapons were those then?
The ones that did the slaughtering in the cities and towns of Libya, as now in Syria, were the tanks, artillery and mortars, all supplied by Russia.
So why do you only criticise Britain?
Prejudice.
And why so little condemnation of Syria?
If it were possible to blame Israel we would be seeing your usual huge posts loaded with outrage.
More prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:29 PM

I take it that was not addressed to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 06:16 PM

"Islamophobic rant" :0).....more newspeak from "liberal Jim"

Is he the universal stereotype?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:53 AM

"Is he the universal stereotype? "
No - but you appear to have appointed yourself as spokesman for BNP policy on Muslims.
Islamic extremism is an example of what happens when religion per se, and not any particular brand, has an influence in national and international politics.
"What weapons were those then?"
These:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1360079/How-Britain-sell-arms-Gaddafi-Libya-bleat-democracy.html
or maybe these:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/8754379/UK-promoted-sale-of-sniper-rifles-to-Gaddafi-just-weeks-before-uprising-began.html
or even these.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-under-fire-for-selling-arms-to-bahrain-2218423.html
On the other hand - they were all at it, so maybe Britain can be excused:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/04/07/libyan-opposition-israel-supplying-weapons-to-gadhafi-regime-via-fatah-strongman-mohamed-dahlan/
At the time of the uprising the BBC Panorama team filmed warehouses full of British weapons being used against the rebels, and still being supplied.
Or maybe it was all a 'leftie' dream!!
Perhaps you'd like to comment on the stance on Syria taken by the 'Question Time' government members and supporters - or not, as the case may be!
Jim Carroll

And the beat goes on........
The Guardian
11.02.12 Updated 08.47
World news
UK firm defends Libya military sales
NMS International sold armoured vehicles – which have allegedly been used to quell demonstrations – to Libyan regime
Footage appears to show vehicles sold by NMS International on the streets of Libya in recent days Photograph: YouTube
Rob Evans
The Guardian, Mon 21 Feb 2011 21.24 GMT
One of the British firms heavily involved in selling military equipment to Libya has defended its business practices. NMS International has sold armoured vehicles to the Libyan regime which have allegedly been used to quell demonstrations.
The firm, based in Market Harborough, Leicestershire, has also been training the Libyan police on how to control riots. It has organised delegations of British companies to visit Libya to sell a wide range of military equipment at two arms fairs.
Footage appears to show the armoured vehicles on the streets of Libya in recent days.
Yesterday Louis Oliver, one of the NMS directors, said the vehicles were not "designed in any way to be used in a hostile fashion" as they were built to transport 42 police officers "in a protected environment, like big armoured buses".
The firm has sold 10 of the vehicles, built in the UK, to the Libyans in the last four years.
NMS, whose directors claim to have sold more than £1bn worth of exports in the last decade, was also hired to train Libyan police officers to use so-called "non-lethal weapons" to contain demonstrators. He added that the weapons included guns which fire teargas.
Oliver said: "I don't have a problem with that. What we have taught them is the British policing system and using an escalated response and not carrying any lethal weapons." He added this involved the police giving rioters "lots and lots of warnings" before they used more forceful weapons.
NMS took up to 50 British companies to arms fairs in Libya in 2008 and last November. The last exhibition reportedly showcased military wares such as artillery systems, anti-tank weapons, and infantry weapons.
According to NMS, Richard Northern, Britain's ambassador to Libya, and Whitehall's arms sales unit attended the fair.
Oliver said that all their Libyan sales were approved by the British government. "We have worked very closely with our government all the way through."
Oliver Sprague, an Amnesty International campaigner, said : "These licences should never have been granted in the first place given the reams of credible information supplied to the UK government by Amnesty and others relating to the Libyan government's extreme intolerance of all forms of dissent.
"As we've already seen with Bahrain, it looks as if the government's risk-assessment system isn't working. We need much tighter checks when arms and security equipment are being despatched in cases like this."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 04:08 AM

It appears to have become "prejudice" to condemn one country (in this case my own) for crimes against humanity (that is what selling weapons to be used agains civilians is) because other countries are doing the same.
We have no say in what other countries do, but if we sit on our hands and say nothing when our government behaves as it does, we become accomplices in those crimes.
It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 04:50 AM

So, the British supplied weapons were " vehicles (that)were not "designed in any way to be used in a hostile fashion" as they were built to transport 42 police officers "in a protected environment, like big armoured buses" .
Also teargas and water cannon.

Not very useful for massacring civilians!
The Russian tanks and artillery were very good at that, but you only attack Britain.
Nothing bad to say about Russia or China.
Prejudice Jim.

Every one of the Question Time panel condemned the daily massacres in Homs.
Russian artillery fired into residential streets and homes.
Not in support of any ground offensive against insurgents.
Just attrition and terror.
But, you have nothing to say because there is no way to blame Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:01 AM

Ah, I see the Manicheans are out, demonising others who may have different opinions. Such foolishness!

I too condemn the slaughter in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:43 AM

"Every one of the Question Time panel condemned the daily massacres in Homs."
And every one paid lip service to the atrocities apart from Steve Coogan pontificated and attempted to explain why no action against Syria was possible - including the Defence Secretary - you blamed the left for taking this line.
"Obama condemns while Mudcat Left just pontificates about religion and politics,"
"Not very useful for massacring civilians!"
And it's ok to sell weapons to despots as long as they claim them to be harmless is it.
The BBC film showed warehouses full of shells sold by Britain.
Once again you are defending crimes against humanity by demoting them to being harmless.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:57 AM

Still you only find fault with Britain, ignoring worse criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:07 AM

What BBC film?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 06:25 AM

Are you now denying that Britsin was selling heavy weaponry to Gadaffi?
Jim Carroll

Published: 06 April, 2011, 08:28 Edited: 07 April, 2011, 03:39

Britain is facing accusations from the International Criminal Court over the weapons it's sold to Gaddafi while the UK is considering arming more Libyans – rebels this time.
¬The rebels say they lack the ammunition needed to fight off the forces of Colonel Gaddafi.
In the meantime, it is believed Gaddafi was planning to use force to crackdown on protesters long before the uprising began, and the UK was its main arms provider.
That explains why the Libyan security forces have been putting down unrest in the country with plenty of rubber bullets, tear gas and other ammunition to a considerable degree British made.
The UK was still selling arms to Libya just four months before Colonel Gaddafi turned them on his own people, with government ministers approving a deal for sniper rifles, bullets and tear gas.
"There is a very strict set of guidelines that say where it is likely that human rights violations might take place, you are not supposed to sell the weapons. I would say, looking back through a number of credible sources, including an Amnesty International, that it was always very likely that equipment supplied to Colonel Gaddafi would and could be used in the brutal crackdown on protestors," says Oliver Sprague from the non-governmental organization, Amnesty International.
Arms exports is a big business in the UK, valued at nearly $US 12 billion in 2009.
Now, a highly critical report by MPs exposes the scale of UK arms sales to some of the world's most brutal regimes.
The Libyan export licenses were some of the most valuable – according to the report, the UK sold nearly $350 million worth of arms there in the year leading up to September 2010.
In the same year Egypt bought $27 million worth of small guns and electronic warfare equipment from the UK, and Bahrain ordered more than $10 million of guns and crowd control agents.
Dozens of arms export licenses to the region have now been hastily revoked. But still, days into the unrest in Cairo, UK Prime Minister David Cameron led a junket to the Middle East to flaunt the wares of British arms dealers.
"I can't imagine who that was in the Prime Minister's office, who said to them: look you have been arming these dictators to the teeth for the decades. They have spent a certain amount of the weaponry you gave them shooting their own population. Now is a really good time to go and try to sell them some more,"mocks John Rees from Stop The War Coaliton.
"I can't imagine what damage it has done when people see British made weaponry in the hands of the people who are invading Bahrain and putting down its protesters at the moment,"
John Rees says.
The report's authors say the government "misjudged the risk" of selling arms to countries like Egypt and Bahrain – but many would go much further.
"One of the things that you've seen as a characteristic of British aid around the world over the last ten years has been the provision of this highly militarized security sector… so it's exactly the opposite of trying to stimulate democracy – we are providing the means by which those countries' regimes can clamp down on democracy," says John Hilary, Executive Director of War on Want.
Since the violence began, more than a thousand people have been killed in Libya, as well 26 killed and a thousand injured in Bahrain. Circumstantial evidence gathered by the report's authors suggests much of that damage was done with British weapons.
When the unrest started in the Middle East, the government scrambled to suspend arms export licenses. But this report is evidence that it closed the stable door long after the horse had bolted, when British weapons were probably already being used against civilians in Bahrain and Libya. The government still hasn't ruled out arming the rebels in Libya – it remains to be seen whether these damning revelations will make them think twice.
The British foreign secretary has said that the UN resolution on Libya made it legal "to give people aid in order to defend themselves."
And the pressure on Western governments to arm the rebels is growing. With Colonel Gaddafi digging in his heels, a string of high-profile figures have been speaking out in favor of the move:
Bill Clinton, for instance, said he "would be inclined to do it."
So far, the UK has officially offered telecommunications equipment to the rebels. But many suspect help of a different kind may be on the way too.
The UN resolution specifies no ground troops in Libya. However there are reports of secret training bases for rebels.
Journalist Barry Lando, the author of an article on the subject, believes that there is enough evidence to make this claim.
"[There was] one rebel, who claimed that he had been trained by US special forces and Egyptian special forces at a training camp in the eastern part of the country. All that sounds reasonable because what the rebels need is not so much arms, they can use arms, but without training they will not be able to do anything," he said "I think that the US, the British and the French, had all concluded that as well, and there is no way they can avoid giving them training."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 07:07 AM

"Still you only find fault with Britain, ignoring worse criminals."
"It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 09:21 AM

But why do you ONLY criticise Britain?
Not Russia.
Not China.
Not Syria.
Britain is hardly in the same league.
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:25 AM

I opened this for people to comment on the horror of the ongoing and daily massacres in Hom.
A few of us have condemned those responsible for the indiscriminate killing of ordinary people and children.

I find it extraordinary Jim, that you have ignored all that and used it as just another platform to attack Britain and Israel who happen to be totally blameless in this.
It reveals much about you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 11:52 AM

I CONDEMN ANY COUNTRY THAT SELLS ARMS TO DESPOTS
I have already said several times now that there is no difference between any of them -they are all dealers in death, why are you defending Britain's record of selling weapons to despotic regimes?
As a Briton I can only take responsbility for what is done by the British government - I criticise all others from afar.
I unreservedly condemn all nations that trade in arms with despotic countries which have poor human rights records - the top five being US, China, Britain France and Russia, in that order - will you join me in that condemnation?   
For the record - these are the league tables for world arms sales

US $698bn (42% of the world share)
China $119bn (7.3%)
UK, $59bn (3.7%)
France $59.3bn (3.6%)
Russia 58.7bn (3.6%)

"Britain is hardly in the same league."
In fact Britain comes below China but above Russia, and the US is the top dealer in weapons by far - 42% of the world share.
"come up with is some sniper rifles."
Oh, that's all right then - I suggest you open up the links I gave you; I misjudged them - I thought they killed people - and the armoured vehicles, the electronic equipment, and the Lybian police that were trained in Britain......
I suggest you save me the trouble of reproducing the articles on Britain's record on dealing with despotic regimes and open up the links I gave you - meanwhile here's one I prepared earlier.
Jim Carroll

"UK SELLS ARMS TO REPRESSIVE REGIMES- OFFICIAL
MPs question British arms supplies to Middle East and North Africa
Minister admits trade with undemocratic countries with poor human rights record
Saudi Arabian troops arrive in Bahrain to prop up the monarchy against widening demonstrations. Photograph: Ammar Rasool/APAimages/Rex Features
How can Britain, one of the world's leading arms exporters, honour its stated commitment to promote human rights throughout the world?
With difficulty.
Vince Cable, the business secretary, has admitted as much. "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
Cable's refreshing admission of what we all know anyway did not satisfy members of the Commons committee on arms export controls on Tuesday night, not least the chairman, the former Conservative defence minister, Sir John Stanley. He accused the government of adopting a "rosy tinted" and "over optimistic" view of "authoritarian regimes".
The MPs were questioning Cable and William Hague, the foreign secretary, about Whitehall's approval of exports, including crowd control ammunition, guns and ammunition to Libya, Bahrain, and Egypt, in the period leading up to the Arab Spring last year. The MPs also raised questions about reports that Saudi Arabia sent troops in British trucks to Bahrain during the protests in the Gulf state last year.
In a stinging report a year ago, the parliamentary committee noted that successive governments had allowed British arms supplied to north Africa and the Middle East to be used for internal repression in apparent breach of official guidelines.
The MPs welcomed the revocations of 158 arms export licences to governments brutally cracking down on civil protests but added that this merely reflected the "degree of policy misjudgment" that had occurred.
Under official UK guidelines, no arms exports would be allowed that would exacerbate regional conflict or be used for internal oppression. "We don't have perfect foresight", Cable told the MPs.
Hague went further. "In the case of Libya noone predicted what was going to happen", he said as though Gaddafi had only turned into a dictator last year after Libyans in Benghazi began to rise up.
As to Iraq, Hague added, that country had a right to self-defence. Moreover, it had a booming oil industry. "It was very important that BP and Shell are involved in a country like that", said the foreign secretary.
As far as Saudi Arabia was concerned, he said the government had raised concerns about its treatment of women and foreign workers. But 99 percent of Britain's exports to the Kingdom consisted of Typhoon jets. "They are not relevant to our concerns about these rights", said Hague.
And Saudi forces were sent into Bahrain last year "to guard installations but not to take part in dealing with unrest in Bahrain so they did not fall foul [of the export guidelines]".
Cable told MPs that the government had reviewed its system of monitoring arms exports and that in future ministers would be able to "suspend" arms exports quickly in the event of political upheaval or a regional crisis.
Britain is among the world's top five arms suppliers, selling more than £2bn in 2009, according to the latest figures from the International Institute for Strategic Studies. The most lucrative markets, notably in the Middle East, but also the Indian subcontinent, are those where the citizens are not in a position to object or where arms sales further destabilise an already unstable region.
As Hague demonstrated, there are always ways of getting round mutually contradictory policy objectives - in this case, promoting both arms sales and human rights."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:09 PM

You have chosen not to live in Britain and curse it with nearly every breath, so we can assume that you retain your citizenship as a cynical convenience.
I do not believe it is the reason you single out Britain for attack here.

For one sniper rifle you could buy 50 or more Kalashnikovs.
With their high rate of fire they are far superior when you just want to kill large numbers of people indiscriminately.
Russia supplies them by the ton.

Unarmed armoured buses, tear gas and water cannon are no good for massacres either.

Still you attack Britain while IGNORING the pitiful subject of this thread!

In just your second post you ascribed a statement to me, in quotes, that I never said and does not represent my opinion.
Straight in with a personal attack backed up with a lie.
You are the enemy of honest, friendly debate.

Now, do you have any comments on the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 01:14 PM

I'll take that a no then that you won't join me in condemning the countries who sell weapons to despotic regimes - now why am I not surprised.
"You are the enemy of honest, friendly debate"
And you are the mealy-mouthed apologist hypocrite who supports terrorist states and their armourers.
"Now, do you have any comments on the subject of this thread?"
I've made them, but one more time - "It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 02:10 PM

I do condemn selling weapons to despotic regimes.
Britain's armaments industry has a better record than almost any other.
Can you give any example of a national armaments industry with a better record Jim.
Now PLEASE stop trying to change the subject of this thread.
You still have not expressed an opinion.

From the OP
I condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon.
Will you join me in that?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 02:42 PM

Strange that Russia seems to have made an act of compassion for Canadian harp seals (they announced an import ban in December), but not a similar one for the Syrian population.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:01 PM

"condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon."
I utterly condemn the actions of the Syrian government in its repressive and murderous attempts to supress opposition - and have already said so.
I also condemn all nations who supply weapons to despotic powers - China, Russia, the US, Britain, France.... whovever. I do not make any distinction between "heavy weapons" more likely to be used in military conflict and the armoured vehicles, tear gas, sniper rifles - and the training of Gadaffi's thugs in crowd control by the British army. Would you be prepared to put your name to that one or are you happy if the weapons sold are only those most likely to be use against demonstrating civilians.
Are you really claiming that it was acceptable to sell weapons to Gadaffi - a simple yes or no will do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:12 PM

One more for your approval
Jim Carroll

Britain Sold Weapons to Libya and Other Dictatorships in North Africa and the Middle East
Posted by Shear on Tuesday, April 05, 2011
Shear English - Britain sold weapons to Libya and other dictatorships in North Africa and the Middle East just four months before Colonel Gaddafi's regime slaughtered hundreds of protesters, a damning report reveals today. Ministers approved the export of sniper rifles, bullets, tear gas and other 'crowd control' ammunition to Tripoli shortly before the murderous dictator ordered his military to crush a pro-democracy uprising.
The highly critical report by MPs laid bare the 'dirty secret' of Britain selling arms to some of the world's most brutal regimes. Successive British governments have 'misjudged the risk', the Commons' Committee on Arms Export Controls said. The report follows mounting fears Gaddafi used UK-made arms against the rebel uprising in Libya. More than 1,000 Libyan citizens have been killed since his violent crackdown was launched. Official figures show that since 2009, Britain approved export licences worth £2.3billion to 16 states over a 21-month period.
Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures. The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners. Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia. MPs on the cross-party committee admitted the Coalition government had been 'vigorously backpedalling' to revoke 156 arms export licences to the region since the 'Arab Spring' of uprisings began. But they raised concerns about sales of arms in the first place by Gordon Brown and David Cameron to authoritarian regimes, in deals which are at odds with Britain's stance on upholding human rights.
The report concluded: 'Both the present Government and its predecessor misjudged the risk that arms approved for export to certain countries in North Africa and the Middle East might be used for internal repression. 'We recommend the Government sets out how it intends to reconcile the potential conflict of interest between increased emphasis on promoting arms exports with the staunch upholding of human rights.'
Sir John Stanley, the committee's Tory chairman, said the hasty withdrawal of so many export licences after several regimes brutally turned their guns on protesters 'reflected the degree of policy misjudgement that has occurred'. Ministers have ordered a sweeping review into the issuing of arms export licences.
Kaye Stearman, of Campaign Against Arms Trade, said: 'This is a damning report that shines light on the dirty secret of Britain's arms exports to authoritarian, undemocratic and abusive regimes. This should be a wake-up call to the Government.' Oliver Sprague, Amnesty International's UK arms programme director, said: 'Plainly decisions made in the past on arms sales to the Middle East and North Africa have been wrong.' Labour ministers were said to have approved the sale of the crowd control weapons to Gaddafi while negotiations were under way over the fate of the Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Al Megrahi.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM

Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:21 PM

SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA,
That would be for the sniper rifles Jim.
Britain does not make Kalashnikov rounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 10:50 AM

"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
Yes keith - for use on civilians, along with the armoured cars and tear gas.
I ask again - are you really suggesting claiming it is acceptable to supply monsters like Gadaffi and Assad with arms - large or small?
No answer suggests that you do - which is probably the case.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 11:06 AM

There are legitimate as well as illegitimate uses for the things supplied - a bit like the internet really.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 12:24 PM

To murder civilians, their vast arsenal of Kalshnikovs each do a better job than a sniper rifle.
Sniper rifles are worth more than 50 Kalishnikovs and each round has to be loaded separately by hand.
Armour plated buses, tear gas and water are even less effective.

Britain has no blame for what is going on in Homs, but you only want to talk about Britain.
I will argue the politics of arms sales with you, but not on this thread.
If you only want to talk about Britain not Homs on this thread, you are talking to yourself now, you hate filled obsessive.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 02:49 PM

The fact that Britain should sell ANY WEAPONS whatever to Gadaffi and Assad is a crime against humanity - they were/are both repressive thugs and were known to be such.
In 2001 MI6 planned to assassinate Gadaffi http://cryptome.org/shayler-gaddafi.htm - yet right up to the uprising in Libya the British Government were issuing licenses to sell him arms - guns, armoured cars, tear gas that could be used to 'keep order' - and providing trainining in riot control - this is ******* insanity.
Russia and China are supporting Assad and selling him arms - the whole pivot of this discussion is the wisdom of selling weapons to repressive regimes - it is exactly as I described elsewhere - you are screaming 'thread drift' because it has moved out of your comfort zone - as is a constant tactic of yours.
Perhaps you'd like a look at the effect of these "harmless" sniper bullets - possibly supplied by the British.
You have yet to comment on the morality of Britain selling to dictators - from which I think we can gather that you support it.
Jim Carroll

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-28/middleeast/world_meast_syria-homs-scene_1_snipers-syrian-city-arab-league?_s=PM:MIDDLEEAST
Snipers rule the streets in the besieged Syrian city of Homs
ARAB LEAGUE
December 28, 2011|By the CNN Wire Staff
Exclusive: Government snipers prowl HomsFor months, the Syrian city of Homs has been the focus of opposition to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, with almost daily protests since the summer.
More recently, defectors from the military have begun organizing armed resistance. Meanwhile, government forces have tightened their siege of rebellious neighborhoods that are now under the control of the opposition.
A freelance journalist and filmmaker -- who is not named for his own security -- has just left Homs, and over the next few days CNN will be showcasing his remarkable stories from the front lines of a city at war.
Among the bullet-scarred walls of neighborhoods under siege, he encountered the government snipers who prowl the city picking off their victims apparently indiscriminately and at will.
He found snipers stationed on almost every main street, manning checkpoints on both sides and firing at anybody crossing the street between 4 p.m. and 8 a.m. the next day -- imposing a kind of unofficial curfew.
He spoke to one woman whose daughter was seven months pregnant when she was shot in the head as she tried to venture out of the house to do some shopping. The snipers kept shooting as relatives tried to reach the pregnant woman where she lay dead in the street, before finally they were able to bring her body back to her mother's home.
To film what was going on, the journalist too had to risk his life on the streets of Homs, with about 1 million inhabitants the country's third-largest city.
View his images in hi-res
"I had to cross several times exactly the same streets where people got shot several minutes before. And you arrive at a scene where half an hour ago someone got shot and 30 minutes later people are crossing the street normally," he said.
"Me crossing the street, I was feeling literally that the sniper is aiming at me and it is up to him if he is going to pull the trigger or not."
Residents describe the daily struggle of life in the cross-hairs, some telling how they throw bread and other supplies across the street to others who cannot safely traverse to reach a shop.
A monitoring mission from the Arab League arrived in the city Tuesday but opposition activists fear they will not see the full extent of a brutal government crackdown that the United Nations says has claimed more than 5,000 lives nationwide.
Despite the days-long military siege, thousands turned out for anti-government demonstrations as the Arab League team entered the city.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:36 PM

I have stated,I do condemn selling weapons to despotic regimes.

Start a thread "I hate Britain and everything British" and I will discuss this stuff with you.
Leave this thread alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 02:20 AM

We should also have another thread about Israel now that you acknowledge it is surrounded by "repressive regimes" to whom no-one should supply even crowd control equipment, never mind weapons.
You will want to congratulate Israel for confronting and resisting them for so many years.

You will also want to support Israel's blockade of Gaza,as it has stopped those "dictatorships" from supplying arms and explosives to the most "repressive regime" of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 03:45 AM

"Start a thread "I hate Britain and everything British""
You cannot start a thread deploring despots slaughtering protesters and expect not to be faced with the fact that the part Britain has played in that slaughter by supplying those despots with the wherewithal to carry out some of that slaughter
It was you who pointed out that the weapons supplied by Britain to Syria were sniper rifles "but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles" - you have eye witness descriptions of what those sniper rifles are doing to people - you appear to have painted yourself into a corner.
"You will also want to support Israel's blockade of Gaza"
No I won't - I am referring to 'The Arab Spring' - which is exactly what the "Homs horror" is about - why the hell should I talk about land disputes?
THREAD DRIFT
You are right about one thing though
I do hate - I hate feudal dictators who enslave their people and slaughter them when they get out of hand - I hate governments who leech off that despotism by selling weapons to those dictators, and I hate the mealy-mouthed apologists who refuse to condemn them for doing so, and who, having opened a thread on the slaughter that is taking place using weapons sold to those dictators, then desperately try to steer the discussion away from exactly who is supplying those weapons.
Take your double-standards elsewhere and don't you dare try to stop me from posting to a public forum - that would be dictatorship!!
And still no condemnation of selling arms to Gadaffi - but then again, why should there be - from you anyway?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 04:11 AM

But Jim, you did not object to anyone trading anything with all those "despotic regimes", "repressive regimes" and "dictatorships" when you were supporting them all against Israel.

And now, should the repressive dictatorship in Gaza be supplied with weapons, or blockaded Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 04:47 AM

I HAVE NEVER SUPPORTED DESPOTIC REGIMES - I HAVE OBJECTED TO TERRORIST STATES SLAUGHTERING CIVLIANS - OBVIOUSLY NOT AN ISSUE WITH YOU AS LONG AS THEY BOUGHT THEIR WEAPONS FROM BRITAIN
Stop squirming and address the question "are you really claiming it is acceptable to supply monsters like Gadaffi and Assad with arms - large or small?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 04:55 AM

In my opinion it is not Jim.
I just object to you singling out Britain for attack and ignoring all the far worse offenders.
It is another example of your prejudice.
I also object that you have hijacked a thread about atrocities committed by the regime in Syria, and converting it into a political debate about the arms industries.

Now, is it right to allow armaments to reach the appalling regime in Gaza Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 06:01 AM

No Keith - I am not singling out Britain - I have said all countries who deal in death by selling weapons to despots are as bad as one another - "they are all criminals and no better than one another"
These "atrocities committed by the regime in Syria," are being committed with weapons sold to Syria by Britain (you pointed that out yourself) that is not "hi-jacking the thread it is part of the "Homs horror" - why aren't sniper rifles a part of that "horror" or do only Russian and Chinese weapons count.
You have been shown what damage is being done to civilians by these weapons yet you have not uttered one word of condemnation on their being supplied by our government - and you still have not commented on the sale of weapons to Gadaffi.
You continue to whinge about "thread drift" (having denied you ever did such a thing) yet now we have "is it right to allow armaments to reach the appalling regime in Gaza Jim?" - is that part of the "Homs horror" too?
Why not open a new thread to debate it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 07:01 AM

No Keith - I am not singling out Britain - I have said all countries who deal in death by selling weapons to despots are as bad as one another

In your posts you have mentioned Syria 8 times, Russia 5 times, China 4 times and Britain/UK 55 times!

The figures show clearly your prejudice in singling Britain out although the least offender.

You have firmly refused to stop hijacking this thread into a debate about arms supplies, so should armaments be supplied to the appalling regime in Gaza??

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 08:46 AM

"Britain/UK 55 times!"
Because you continue to defend or refuse to condemn the selling of arms by Britain to dictators - my condemnation of the trade was made earlier and included all of them "It is no defence to claim that others behave as Britain does - they are all criminals and no better than one another" - yours have only attacked Russia and China - and that continues to be the case - YOU CONTINUE TO DEFEND THE SALE OF ARMS TO EITHER GADAFFI OR ASSAD BY BRITAIN WITH YOUR SILENCE
I have never defended the behaviour of Libya or Syria they are/were ruled by despotic thugs BOTH PROPPED UP BY BRITISH ARMS SALES
You have made your position quite clear on the sales of arms to thuggish despots by Britain and have had ample chance to condemn and explain the morality of it - you have declined to do so, so I think it's time we passed the subject back to others.
I think there has been enough bloodletting on this thread - or - in your own words on a former thread "my job is done here" Yi, ho Silver
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:21 AM

Jim, "are you really claiming it is acceptable to supply monsters like Gadaffi and Assad with arms - large or small?"

My reply, In my opinion it is not Jim.

Jim, Because you continue to defend or refuse to condemn the selling of arms by Britain to dictators
No I do not, but if we must discuss arms sales to repressive, despotic dictatorships, should arms be supplied to the appalling regime in Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:32 AM

Sale of arms to Assad's regime in Syria is from what I can gather 100% Russian, but suppliers are listed as:
- Russia
- Belarus
- Iran
- China
- North Korea

No mention of Britain or the USA.

The Syrian Army:
80% of the officers are Alawites (same tribe as Assad)
70% of the regular soldiers are Alawites (same tribe as Assad)
The military's most elite divisions, the Republican Guard and the 4th Mechanized Division, which are commanded by Bashar's brother, are exclusively Alawite.
Alawites make up just 12% of the Syrian population

The regime is Ba'athist (i.e modelled on the German Nazi Party mixed in with a bit a Stalinist repression)

Now does that remind of anywhere else in the region?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:34 AM

"No I do not,"
Then what the **** is this about - here you are suggesting that it is acceptable to supply Syria's security forces with water cannons and tear gas to suppress the revolt - fuck you and your dictator buddies Keith
"If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies."
"should arms be supplied to the appalling regime in Gaza? "
You are the one who permanently whinges about thread drift - open a thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 11:57 AM

Tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, riot shields and bomb-resitant busses to take police to a riot are not military weapons even though Jim Carroll may call them that.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 01:03 PM

"Tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, riot shields and bomb-resitant busses to take police to a riot are not military weapons even though Jim Carroll may call them that. "
Spilitting hairs, it is being suggested here that they be sold to Syria in order to suppress the protests there are you agreeing with him?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 01:40 PM

No it is not.
You know this but it does not suit your agenda to admit it.

All decent people are horrified by the daily atrocities in Syria, but you just use it as a platform to indulge in your hate filled rants against Britain.

Start another thread Jim.
And when you do, tell us why you support that appalling regime in Gaza that uses live rounds to kill its own demonstrators and fires ball bearing packed missiles at the homes of ordinary people and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 02:27 PM

"No it is not."
Yes it is when they are used to quell demonstration - once again you are attempting to downgrade weapons as you did white phosphorus, and you have done here with 'harmless' sniper rifles (you still haven't commented on the morality of supplying such weapons to a murderous regime to suppress pro-democracy demonstrations.
"And when you do, tell us why you support that appalling regime in Gaza "
Where have I ever supported "that appalling regime in Gaza "
I have opposed the slaughter of civilians - you on the other hand have supported the terrorist state of Israel BASED ONLY ON THEIR
DENIALS
And now you are suggesting it would be acceptable to sell riot control gear to regime that has slaughtered thousands of protesters (or is that a "leftie lie".)   You are the only one hear to support state repression and you now continue to do so - in your own words "If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies" - a real role model for democracy Keith.
Racist, anti-democratic mouthpiece of terroist states - you are an extreme right-wing mess.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 12 - 03:21 PM

You put "harmless" in quotes as if I had actually said it, referring to a lethal weapon.
To what point Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:24 AM

Keith
A quick survey of where you have gone here
You open a thread quite rightly deploring the sale of weapons to a despotic dictator during one of the 'Arab Spring' revolts - so far, so good.
When it is pointed out to you that Britain also sold weapons to that dictator, this time to be used on civilians - you squeal "thread drift"
When the horrific consequences of the weapons sold by Britain are pointed out, you attempt to suggest that the weapons Britain sold were somehow harmless or unimportant and refuse to debate it.
When it was pointed out to that Britain also sold weapons to another despotic dictator, this time in Libya, you again squeal "thread drift" and refuse to debate the morality of selling weapons to such people.
You consistently refuse to condemn or even debate the morality of Britain selling weapons to dictators, squealing "anti British" and "thread drift"
When it is pointed out that you have proposed that selling riot control weapons to a despotic dictator so he can use them on protesters demonstrating against his despotism, you then attempt to use the same thread drift you have consistently whined about, here and on other threads to steer the discussion back into your comfort zone.
You continue to use "thread drift" (this time to a land dispute between Israel and Palestine) in a desperate attempt to steer the discussion away from the fact that Britain (the world's third greatest arms trader - along with the US and China) has consistently sold weapons to dictators and despots all over the world, which includes such bastions of democracy as Jordan, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Oman and Bahrain - all possible targets for future 'Arab Springs' (oh- and Egypt, already having fallen to 'Arab Spring' demonstrators).
I wonder what fantastic journeys we could steer this thread to if, for instance, I told you that IN 1975 - AT THE HEIGHT OF THE BRUTALITY OF THE APARTHEID SYSTEM, ISRAEL ATTEMTED TO SELL THE SOUTH AFRICA REGIME NUCLEAR WARHEADS
I suggest that you quit when you are only this far behind, take you flag-wagging. Litttle Britan hypocracy, your open suppost for despotic dictators, your revolting double standard attitude to the arms trade and your racism, and shove them as far from the sunlight as they will go.
Yours as ever,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 03:11 AM

No Jim.
This is what I said in the OP.

I condemn the action of the Syrian government, and China and Russia for supporting and supplying the heavy weapons being used with such indiscriminate abandon.

First point, the Syrian government who are committing atrocities and massacres.
You ignored that, hardly referring to Syria but raging extensively about Britain.

Second point, the support of Russia and China, who vetoed what britain and others tried to do.
You ignored that too.

Final point, the supply of HEAVY WEAPONS being used to commit the massacres.
Because Britain does not supply them, you refused to talk about them.
You just went on and on about non-lethal crowd control kit even though no-one was arguing with you.

Your were not interested in the suffering of the Syrian people at all.
You just used it as another opportunity to vent your obsessed hatred of britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:31 AM

your open suppost for despotic dictators,
Blatant lie Jim.

The arms trade is a complex issue requiring a different thread.
Countries like Saudi are ripe for plunder and have powerful, aggressive and heavily armed neighbours.
This thread is not the place for that debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM

So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population (along with tear gas of course).
You will not withdraw, or even refer to your suggestion that riot control gear should be sold to a regime that has slaughtered thousands of its citizens.
You will not comment on the sale of weapons to other Middle Eastern despots - including Libya and Egypt).
You will not comment on Israel trying to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa (at the time of the Soweto massacre)
You will not, in fact go into the obsenity of arms sales in any shape or form.
Now why am I not surprised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:47 PM

In a perfect world there would be no repressive regimes.
In the real world it is the lesser of evils if they use non-lethal crowd control.
A sniper rifle is a highly discriminating weapon.
Like an axe or a sword.
A kalashnikov is much more effective for indiscriminate slaughter, but any weapon can be used against the defenceless.
I deplore the misuse of any and all weapons against civilians.
I hope Teribus is right, as he usually is, that Britain supplied no weapons at all to Syria.

All those regimes, plus Hamas in Gaza, have been excoriated by me in debates about Israel.
In those same debates, you argued against me, supporting them.
Even here you refuse to state that Hamas should not be supplied weaponry.

Please allow this thread to be about the horror in Syria, and the suffering of the Syrian people.
Start another thread about the international arms trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:54 PM

So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain
Britain has supplied no weapons to Syria.
Teribus was right.
You claim Britain has supplied small arms ammunition.
It can be obtained much cheaper from China, Russia, India, etc. so I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:13 PM

The other thing that Jim also forgets to differentiate between

Any private citizen in Britain who sells something to "X" who "Jim" has taken an aversion to and it is "Britain" (i.e. the Government who has sold whatever it is) total rubbish of course. But when it comes to Tanks, heavy artillery, armoured cars, aircraft and missiles, well they are not sold by private individuals they are sold by Governments in Syria's case mostly Russia, China and North Korea - Not a peep out of "Jim".

And if you are waiting for him to condemn Iran for flooding South Lebanon with 50,000 odd missiles in defiance of the UN Ceasefire or weapons into Gaza then don't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 02:16 AM

Jim Carroll, you hijacked this thread with your demented, unceasing accusations against Britain.
You have shown no concern at all for the suffering of ordinary Syrians.
You only care about suffering if there is some way you can blame Israel, US, or UK.
You could have just stayed off the thread, but you turned it into a tirade against Britain who bears no responsibility at all, while ignoring those actually responsible for all of it.

You have revealed much about yourself on this thread.
Now take your deranged and obsessed vendetta away from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM

"Britain has supplied no weapons to Syria."
From the 'notoriously left-wing Daily Mail':
The 'dirty secret' of British arms sales to Libya just months before Gaddafi slaughtered pro-democracy protesters
.....Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373444/Libya-The-dirty-secret-UK-arms-sales-Gaddafi.html#ixzz1mRWHS8OT
What a heap of shit you people (sic) are - on the one hand whingeing on consistently about thread drift, then when the going gets tough, trying to take a detour into Lebanon.
You have proposed selling riot control gear to a dictator who is still in the process of slaughtering thousands of civilians,
You have described opposition to the selling of weapons to a brutal murderous regime as Britophobia.
You have been given the description of the horrific use of weapons on the civilian population (not even combatants - just ordinary citizens going about their business) and you refuse even to comment on it, let alone condemn it - ergo, you support it with your silence.
There is horror in Homs at present - its people are being slaughtered by a despotic thug - with weapons sold to him by Russia, China and Britain - the latter being supported here by a Laurel and Hardy pair of flag waggers.
Go take a cold shower - the pair of you.
"You have revealed much about yourself on this thread."
I certainly think at least one of us has.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

This thread is about real suffering.
That of the Syrian people, at the hands of a brutal regime supported by Russia and China.
All you can contribute is a rant against Britain, WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!

Even the The Daily Mail, your only source of evidence (!) does not say Britain supplied anything.
"Approved" sale of small arms ammunition.
No reason not to "approve" that. No-one would buy it when China sells it cheaper.

If you do not care about Assad's victims, stay away like most of your Lefty friends.
Take your deranged vendetta against Britain somewhere else.
Start a thread about arms sales if you must, but leave this thread alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 06:50 AM

"Approved" sale of small arms ammunition."
I doesn't mastter if it's approved or not - it has been sold to a state which is massacring its own people.
The fact that it is "approved" only serves to underline the obscenity of an arms trade in which Britain is third in the league.
The subject of "arms sales" was in your original posting - at the present times it is small arms that are being used against the people of Homs - are you really suggesting that it is "thread drift" to point this out.
As for my not caring about Assad's victims - it is you who has suggested he be sold riot control gear,and it is you who has consistently refused to comment on the sale of ammunitionion to him.
Oh, and thanks for the perfect example of how you use "thread drift"
as a way of digging yourself out of a hole of your owm making
Now sit down - head between the knees - deep breaths - relax.
Pip-pip.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 07:23 AM

Jim, read this slowly.

BRITAIN HAS NOT SOLD ARMS OR AMMO TO SYRIA.

YOUR WHOLE CONTRIBUTION TO THIS THREAD IS BASED ON A LIE.

BRITAIN IS BLAMELESS IN THE HORROR OF SYRIA.

BRITAIN WAS ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS IN SECURITY COUNCIL WHO TRIED TO STOP IT.

RUSSIA AND CHINA VETOED THAT, AND IT IS THEIR SUPPLIES DOING THE KILLING, NOT BRITAIN'S.

Now read it again JIm, and hide away in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 08:20 AM

"BRITAIN HAS NOT SOLD ARMS OR AMMO TO SYRIA."
".....Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia."
YES IT HAS KEITH
"YOUR WHOLE CONTRIBUTION TO THIS THREAD IS BASED ON A LIE. BRITAIN IS BLAMELESS IN THE HORROR OF SYRIA."
NO IT ISN'T - ON BOTH COUNTS
"BRITAIN WAS ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS IN SECURITY COUNCIL WHO TRIED TO STOP IT."
HAVING ALREADY SOLD ARMS TO SYRIA WHICH ARE NOW BEING USED ON THE STREETS OF HOMS TO KILL CIVILIANS - SEE ABOVE CNN REPORT
"RUSSIA AND CHINA VETOED THAT, AND IT IS THEIR SUPPLIES DOING THE KILLING, NOT BRITAIN'S."
ALL THREE HAVE SOLD ARMS TO SYRIA - SEE DAILY MAIL REPORT
"hide away in shame. "
What - moi?
Now you are being silly - especially as it was you who pointed out that it was sniper rifle bullets that Britain supplied
"SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA,
That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
You really are not having a good day, are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 10:07 AM

"approved" does not mean sold Jim.
Why would Assad forsake China and buy just small arms ammunition from Britain?
British workers have to be paid more than those in the Marxist Republic.
Especially the little ones.

BRITAIN HAS SOLD NO WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION TO SYRIA.
YOU HAVE MADE IT UP.
YOU HAVE USED THIS THREAD AS A VEHICLE FOR YOUR DERANGED HATRED, AND IT IS ALL A LIE.

And to use this of all threads is shameful indeed Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:09 AM

"BRITAIN HAS SOLD NO WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION TO SYRIA."
Yes we have Keith - The Daily Mail said so, so it must be true.
Also here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/22/uk-arms-sales-middle-east-north-africa
"YOU HAVE MADE IT UP."
No I haven't - but maybe the Daily Mail and the Guardian did - both are, after all, notoriously anti-British!!
"AND IT IS ALL A LIE."
Now you are becoming hysterical - remember what I said about the deep breaths.
This is now becoming embarrasing - I suggest you take a day off and think about things.
Your proposal to arm a fascist dictator with riot-control equipment will forever stand next to your Pakistani cultural perverts statement - why not try to find an 'unimpeachable expert' who has proved that selling arms to fascist dictators in order to put down pro-democracy demonstrations is a "good thing" so you can then claim to be "only the messenger"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:19 AM

For a spreadsheet of exactly who Britain sells arms to, see here
Jim Carroll
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdHRjRVRWLXNmNTNaMW80S3FUQ0g2SUE&hl=en#

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 11:44 AM

Yes we have Keith - The Daily Mail said so, so it must be true.
Don't be so gullible Jim.
And, it does not say anything was sold to Syria.
Read it again.

Your Guardian "data blog" refers to one licence for a small amount of small arms ammunition.
So one individual bought some cheap ammo on the international market and sold it on.
Not British ammunition.

You ignore the suppliers of the tanks, artillery and shells killing scores every day, and the regime that uses them on its own people, and try to make the whole thread about Britain on the basis of just that.
That is not rational hatred Jim.
It has twisted and turned your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 12:21 PM

Ah so the tragedy that is being played out in Syria is down to £30,000 worth of "small arms" ammunition that may or may not have been sold to Syria two years ago - WOW

Now let us see if that ammunition was sold by Britain what Syrian weapons could have been used for?

NATO calibres include:

5.56 x 45 mm
7.62 x 51 mm
9 x 19 mm
12.7 x 99 mm or .50 BMG (Browning machine gun)

Warsaw Pact calibres include:

5.45 x 39 mm
7.62 x 39 mm
7.62 x 54 mm (Rimmed)
9 x 18 mm Makarov
7.62 x 25 mm
12.7 x 107 mm or 12.7 x 108 mm
14.5 x 114 mm

AK-47 uses short chamber 7.62 rounds which Britain does not make because we do not use it our 7.62 rounds were longer.

That would leave 9mm NATO Ball ammunition for pistols? Again ours are too long. So we are not talking about British Government sales here we are talking about a dealer based in the UK who may well not even be a UK citizen.

In 2010 there were 220,000 men serving in the Syrian Army + 280,000 Reserves give each man 10 rounds "live" firing per year and that amounts to 5,000,000 rounds which would work out at 0.6p per round.

I would therefore hazard the guess that any ammunition sold to Syria by someone based in the UK with an "end user certificate" approved by British authorities has long since been expended and used way before the current stramash got underway.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

Ah - the return of the gun nut.
You have a list of the states buying weapons from Britain - I wonder how many demonstrators £30.000 worth of bullets would kill - care to give us an expert opinion Terrytoon? Or perhaps you know the Syrians have expended the British ammunition elsewhere - the pair of you seem chummy enough with them to have such information to hand   
On the one hand Stan says there are no weapons being sold, on the other Ollie agrees that there are but that the figure is insignificant - care to check your hymn sheets lads?
IT IS MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO ARM MONSTERS AND POTENTIAL MONSTERS -YOU HAVE THE LISTS - LYBIA, EGYPT, SYRIA, SAUDI ARABIA, BAHRAIN..... Britain is third in the world league for weapons sales.
Another leftie-rag comment:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-under-fire-for-selling-arms-to-bahrain-2218423.html
And since you're here Ollie - perhaps you'd care to give us an opinion on Stan's suggestion that Britain would be ok to sell riot control equipment to a Middle Eastern despot in the process of mudering his people - for or against?
"It has twisted and turned your mind."
Nope - it's twisted to claim there to be no wrong in profiteering by arming despotic thugs (and potential ones)
Perhaps a little up-to-date reminder of who Britain has sold sniper ammunition to is in order – this time from another leftie source – Reuters.
Jim Carroll

BEIRUT | Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:12am EST
SCENES OF HORROR AS SYRIA'S HOMS BLEEDS FROM SIEGE
Bombardment in Homs
Thu, Feb 9 2012
(Reuters) - Makeshift hospitals in besieged opposition areas of the Syrian city of Homs are overflowing with dead and wounded from government bombardments and snipers, according to a report by international monitor Human Rights Watch.
Medical supplies are running out and at least three field hospitals have been hit. Rooms are full of corpses while in the streets, wounded people are bleeding to death as it is too dangerous for rescuers to bring them to safety.
The New York-based Human Rights Watch provided this picture of nearly a week of carnage in Homs from talking to several witnesses inside the city, now the focal point of the 11-month-old uprising against President Bashar al-Assad's rule.
Since the military operation against opposition neighborhoods was launched Friday night, government forces have fired hundreds of shells and mortar bombs, killing more than 300 people and wounding hundreds more, including women and children, it said.
Soldiers have also strafed people from helicopters.
Government forces have taken over Homs University residences to use as a firebase and blockaded areas of the city, preventing people from getting out and food, medicine and other supplies from getting in, according to the report.
"Injured people are dying because we cannot treat them. There are still people in the street who are injured. They are missing body parts. We cannot pull them in because of the shooting. They will die in the street," it quoted one witness named Karim, a resident of Khalidiya neighborhood, as saying.
WOMEN AND CHILDREN
Homs, an industrial city in western Syria with a population of nearly a million, is the country's third largest and has a history stretching back to ancient times.
It has been in the forefront of the uprising against Assad and has seen frequent protests and repression since March.
The latest bout of bloodshed began when security forces at checkpoints and on rooftops opened fire on a protest near the Al-Zahire mosque last Friday evening, according to Hani, a witness from Baba Amro district. Soon after, shelling began.
In Khalidiya, fighters of the rebel Free Syrian Army seized a checkpoint and residents took to the streets to celebrate - provoking an intensive barrage that lasted for several hours, witness Samer said.
Wasim said that Monday, Baba Amro, Khalidiya and Wadi Iran were all shelled.
"I could hear the sound of women and children screaming while running on the streets trying to escape the shelling," he said in the HRW report.
He and some other tried to rescue wounded people but they came under fire as tried to retreat using secret passages. They were forced to stay in hiding and the 10 wounded they had picked up died from loss of blood.
A doctor at al-Waer hospital said medical supplies had run out. Monday, 18 wounded patients, including a 13-year-old child, died of complications in the hospital when the electricity was cut off, he said.
Mahmud, a Baba Amro resident, told Human Rights Watch: "There is no escape or safe passage from the area and there is no safe shelter inside the area from the rockets and shells.
"There is no bread, no medication and no nutritional supplies, and after a field hospital was targeted, we lost several of our medical staff."
Snipers targeted any moving object, he said.
"Many of the wounded have very serious injuries - they lost their limbs, or eyes, had serious wounds to the body."
Human Rights Watch said that the indiscriminate shelling of populated areas which resulted in civilian casualties was a serious human rights violation.
"This brutal assault on residential neighborhoods shows the Syrian authorities' contempt for the lives of their citizens in Homs," said Anna Neistat, HRW emergencies director.
"Those responsible for such horrific attacks will have to answer for them."
(Reporting by Angus MacSwan; Editing by Alastair Macdonald)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 02:25 PM

Of course, we might gain a little comfort from the thought that the British ammo sold to Assad was only used for training, so the lads shooting down civilians could do their jobs efficiantly - cling to that one Terminus - it may help you through the dark hours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 03:57 PM

Jim,

"Human Rights Watch said that the indiscriminate shelling of populated areas which resulted in civilian casualties was a serious human rights violation."

YOUR failure to take China and Russia to task for the shells involved is certain proof you have NO concern for the Syrian people, just a desire to beat up on Britain. THEY were the ones who blocked the UN taking action, yet that seems ok with you.

" I do not make any distinction between "heavy weapons" more likely to be used in military conflict and the armoured vehicles, tear gas, sniper rifles - "

Yet HRW does, and the use of those heavy weapons against civilians IS a crime against humanity, while the use of tear-gas and armoured vehicles is NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 04:37 PM

"YOUR failure to take China and Russia to task for the shells"
I have not failed to take Russia and China to task for the shells - I condemn all of them utterly but I have said repeatedly that I believe all nations who supply weapons to dictators to be no better than one another.
You have seen descriptions of the slaughter by snipers armed with British supplied ammunition.
I refuse to discriminate between weapons supplied by Russia and China and those supplied by Britain specifically to be used on civilians - that would be rank hypocracy. You've had the list of countries Britain has traded arms with - you may add to that Pinochet's Chile and Mugabe's Zimbabwe - how does that grab you?
damn them all - they are all mercenary dealers in death and it is flag-waving shit to claim otherwise - do you condemn the ammuntion supplied by Britain or are you with the other pair of shits?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:29 PM

Sometimes James I really feel that the world would have been a far, far better place if your father had just accepted the blow job your mother offered.

I will continue to run on logic, reason and fact mixed in with a bit of commonsense and perspective.

Oh by the way, what sniper-rifles does the Syrian Army have that would take "British" ammunition - or is that just a little bit too logical and reasonable a question for you to ask yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 05:41 PM

I am amazed at the ability of people to discuss morals in a whorehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 09:19 PM

Sniper rifles used by Syrian Army

Dragunov SVD
PSL
Zastava M91
Steyr SSG 69

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM

Thanks for that 999

NATO calibres include:

5.56 x 45 mm
7.62 x 51 mm - This the Steyr SSG 69 Austrian
9 x 19 mm
12.7 x 99 mm or .50 BMG (Browning machine gun)

Warsaw Pact calibres include:

5.45 x 39 mm
7.62 x 39 mm
7.62 x 54 mm (Rimmed) - Dragunov; PSL; Zastava M91 Russia & former Warsaw Pact
9 x 18 mm Makarov
7.62 x 25 mm
12.7 x 107 mm or 12.7 x 108 mm
14.5 x 114 mm

The ammunition (unspecified as to type) sold by someone in the UK (Not the UK Government and hence NOT sold by the "British") two years ago will have long gone before the current outbreak of violence in Syria - Guess what "Jim Lad" - Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 03:25 AM

"Snipers have to practice"
Already done that - you are now excusing the sale of British ammunition to a despotic regime to enable their snipers to kill the citizens of Homs more efficiantly - oh, that's all right then!
Do you do bookings - there are some great comedy venues over here.
"Sometimes James I really feel that the world would have been a far, far better place if your father had just accepted the blow job your mother offered."
There you go - the discussion is now down to the level you are most at ease with.
You really couldn't make you people up
Have a nice day there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:05 AM

I have not failed to take Russia and China to task for the shells

Millions of pounds worth of tanks and artillery and Kalashnikovs and sniper rifles and thousands of tons of shells and live rounds, and unequivocal support in UN.

Britain, possibly a British person possibly supplied a few weeks worth of bullets two years ago.

Last count, in your posts you have mentioned Syria 8 times, Russia 5 times, China 4 times and Britain/UK 55 times!

You care much more about slandering UK than for the suffering of Syria, the subject of this thread, which you have turned to shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 05:07 AM

PS
"Not the UK Government and hence NOT sold by the "British"
But licensed for sale by the British Government.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:12 AM

"and Britain/UK 55 times!
"In response to your attempting to defend the selling of weapons to a murderous regime.
As you rightly pointed out - these were sniper bullets now being used on civilians in Homs (or, at the very least, have been used to train the snipers who are now randomly slaughtering those civilians).
Having pointed out this fact ("That would be for the sniper rifles Jim") and despite any evidence being offered to the contrary, you have desperately attempted to deny (without a shred of proof) that Britain has not sold these arms to Assad's regime. Failing miserably, you are now trying to make this an "anti-British" thing. It is not - I don't go in for self-hatred.
Fact- Britain sold sniper rifle bullets to Assad's regime. These are possibly being used to kill civilians, or have been used to train the killers. Fact - Despite the obvious nature of the Assad regime you have proposed that it would be acceptable to provide it with the wherewithal to crush the opposition to the regime.
I do hope today will be as easy as yesterday was - keep up the good work.
By the way - do you feel that Terpitude's comments about my mother (now dead 47 years) has raised or lowered the level of debate here? Can't make up my mind, but would very much welcome your advice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM

There is no reason, that I am aware of, to believe they were sniper bullets.
If you have any evidence, show us.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:22 AM

"There is no reason, that I am aware of, to believe they were sniper bullets."
But you said they were - make up your mind laddie, you really can't have it both ways.
No comment on Terminus's remarks, so, like the sale of arms to fascist regimes - I can only assume you are in favour
What a bunch you lot are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:20 AM

My mistake was to briefly believe some of the made up allegations of a compulsive liar Jim.
If we had supplied those rifles, the ammunition would have made some sense.
But Britain supplied no rifles or any other weapons.
You made it all up.

A licence for a few bullets may have been issued back then, but I doubt any was supplied.
It makes no sense. We do not make anything they use.

2010 was a wet year here.
Perhaps it was ammo for water cannon?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:26 AM

Jim,

"do you condemn the ammuntion supplied by Britain"

IF the ammunition was provided by the GOVERNMENT, as was the Chinese and Russian materials, I DO condemn it. If it was by private companies acting within the law, I would say to CHANGE THE LAW.

YOU have stated that degree has no bearing- so I expect you to condemn the Palestinians, and agree that the materials that they use to kill Israeli civilians should be blocked from import into Gaza- ( ie, the Israeli blockade is both justified and REQUIRED), even if you feel they are reacting to other's aggressions- yet you have not yet done so.
This shows you to be a hypocrite, at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:01 AM

Seems like Syria impacts the Iran-Turkey relationship.

Turkey-Syria and Iran

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 08:10 AM

"allegations of a compulsive liar Jim."
Now you appear to have descended to the gutter level of your friend Terrapin. I made nothing up - I presented you with cuttings from the Guardian and the Daily Mail - even a chart showing who Britain trades arms with along with the value of those arms.
Yesterday you hysterically dismissed those cuttings as - what - fakes?, lies? - please elucidate.
Now you appear to have calmed down, (head between the knees worked, did it?) and accepted that Britain has traded in arms with the Assad regime, but are now disputing your own statement that it was sniper rifles that were supplied.
"You made it all up."
No Keith - you did.
And the proposal to sell riot control equipment to Assad - does that still stand - or are you just quoting one of your "experts"?
And you still desperately attempt to drift the thread into your comfort zone - you really are not very good at this, are you?
"If it was by private companies acting within the law"
The Government issued export licences for the weapons supplied - they were British weapons - that's how it works.
Can't wait for Terminus to get back - then I'd have three-of-a-kind - all jokers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:08 AM

Syria has all the weapons it needs to commit a new massacre every day.
None of those weapons came from Britain.

Why not just condemn the perpetrators and those who armed them, and leave your outpourings of bile against Britain for a thread where it has some relevance.

Or have we all got it wrong.
Has Britain supplied Syria a single weapon Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM

A "Christmas" is this the level you are most at ease with?

"do you condemn the ammuntion supplied by Britain or are you with the other pair of shits?"

I do love how our hypocrite "Jim" seizes on "generalities"

Now Jim-lads contention is this:

"these were sniper bullets now being used on civilians in Homs (or, at the very least, have been used to train the snipers who are now randomly slaughtering those civilians)."

Not at all Jim - these "sniper" bullets are now being used by the brave fighters of the free Syrian army in their tireless efforts to defend those Syrian civilians currently being shot by the Alawite bastards loyal to that murderous, Hezbollah sheltering, cretin Assad. As to them being shot randomly, I would venture to guess there is nothing random about being shot by a sniper - quite a deliberate process I would fancy.

On the subject of facts Jim (You would not recognise one if it jumped up and bit you)

Can we examine those Facts of yours:

"Fact- Britain sold sniper rifle bullets to Assad's regime. These are possibly being used to kill civilians, or have been used to train the killers."

That Jim is not a fact but a string of assumptions:
- You are assuming that 7.62 x 51mm rounds were the rounds sold. What evidence do you have of that? Let me see now 2009 was when those rounds were sold, I think that the UK Government would have held onto every 7.62 round they had for their own Army's GPMG's out in Afghanistan wouldn't you?

- The 7.62 x 51mm is/was standard NATO ammunition it is not specifically made as a "sniper" round - something else that you just assumed.

- "These are possibly being used" is another assumption based upon the square root of S.F.A.

- "or have been used to train the killers" another baseless assumption

So on examination there are no FACTS there at all.

"Fact - Despite the obvious nature of the Assad regime you have proposed that it would be acceptable to provide it with the wherewithal to crush the opposition to the regime."

Oh please tell us in detail the nature of Assad's regime and then tell us who is buddies and allies are - don't be shy now.

Hezbollah; Hamas; Iran all staunch allies and friends of this odious Nazi based regime.

The Syrian uprising began on 15th March 2011 so what exactly has either Keith or myself sold to the Assad Government to assist it in crushing the opposition to their regime? I can swear on anything you like that I have not sold a thing to Syria that could be of any use in putting down the current uprising - neither has the British Government.

Another fact that has escaped you, yet some else has pointed out ammunition is not a weapon, the weapon in this case is the rifle, and I promise I haven't sold any to anybody. But perhaps if you think that ammunition is a weapon could you explain the term "Arms & Ammunition", as you contend that would be needless duplication "Arms & Arms"?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:10 PM

And Jim HAS in the past supported the military actions of those supporting Assad:
"Hezbollah; Hamas; Iran "

Thus HE is the one who has shown support for murdering despots, not the British who tried to get the UN to act BUT WERE BLOCKED by Russia and China.

What a scumbag!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:16 PM

"... the mealy-mouthed apologist hypocrite who supports terrorist states and their armourers."


Jim stands condemned by his own words as a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:32 PM

I think Jim may have his head up his arse on this, but could we please leave the acrimonious stuff for another time?

Getting arms or bullets is not rocket science. Ya buy them. http://www.gunsinternational.com/Sniper-Rifles.cfm?cat_id=365

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:38 PM

999,

Feel free to inform Jim of this: I reply IN KIND , since to do otherwise is to be treated like shit here on Mudcat.

From my experience with Greg F and others, NO-ONE else is about to call out liars, scumbags, and bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:44 PM

NO-ONE else is about to call out liars, scumbags, and bigots until it directly impacts themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:02 PM

We're really not getting anything new here - the reports say Britain sold arms to Syria - show they didn't.
The rest is smoke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:10 PM

Oh, and by the way - I haven't complained about being insulted - I haven't even complained about my mother being insulted - she would have loved the idea of being involved in exposing a bunch of fascist morons 45 years after her death.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:21 PM

the reports say Britain sold arms to Syria - show they didn't.

You have provided no "report" or anything else suggesting Britain supplied Syria with one single weapon.
That is because Britain has supplied no single weapon to Syria, while Russia and China have provided thousands of tons of them.

If you are not a fantasist liar Jim, tell us why you believe Britain HAS supplied weapons.
Supplementary question for you.
Should the appalling, repressive regime in Gaza be prevented from obtaining weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:34 PM

Jim,

As stated, YOU are the one who refuses to take those who support Assad to task ( Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past. To blame US for NOT taking Britain to task, when it tried to stop THOSE YOU SUPPORT from aiding Assad and call us fascist is the height of hypocrisy.

Your mother would be ashamed of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 02:36 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 02:24 AM

Keith
A quick survey of where you have gone here
You open a thread quite rightly deploring the sale of weapons to a despotic dictator during one of the 'Arab Spring' revolts - so far, so good.
When it is pointed out to you that Britain also sold weapons to that dictator, this time to be used on civilians - you squeal ...

WHAT WEAPONS JIM?????

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 03:39 PM

"WHAT WEAPONS JIM?????"
The oness you described as "sniper bullets" Keith
Can't remember whether it was before or after you proposed selling him anti-riot gear
" YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past."
Didn't - don't - perhaps you would like to point out where I did?
You on the other hand have been quite vociferous in support of a terrorist state who attempted to sell nuclear warheads to apatheid ruled South Africa around the time it was massacering hundreds of its black citizens - mainly protesting schoolchildren - that goes for all of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 07:08 PM

So Jim, you destroyed this thread about the suffering in Syria with your accusations of British weapons sales, and it was all made up!
Not one single weapon sold by Britain.
Possibly, but probably not, a few bullets years ago, but certainly none made in Britain, and no weapons at all!

And that is you whole case against Britain, and from someone who has staunchly supported all those vile regimes himself, against Israel, for years.
You have not come out of this well Jim.

BTW, should the appalling, repressive regime in Gaza be prevented from acquiring weapons Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 02:50 AM

"and it was all made up!"
And again, as in other threads, you are reduced to denying the evidence put in front of you.
You have already acknowledged that evidence by descibing the weapons sold to Assad as "sniper bullets", The 'Gun Thug' has acknowledged their existance with his "Snipers have to practice...".
You have persistantly wailed "thread drift" claiming that your "sniper bullets" don't belong in this discussion because they are not heavey weapons - despite the fact that the people going about their daily business (women shopping with their children) are being cut down by your (now claimed as non-existant, despite the fact that it was you who identified them as such) British supplied "sniper bullets".
Crassly, even for you, you have actually wailed "thread drift" on the same posting as your deliberately attempting to 'drift the thread' to Palestine as a diversion.
Palestine has no place on this thread, any of the Arab Spring protests have, yet you have desperately attempted to drag in the former as a smoke-screen for your lack of argument for supplying weapons to murderous dictators.
Not one of you: 'The Idiot', 'The Gun Thug' or 'Weirdie Bruce' has acknowledged the supplying of military equipment and weapons to Gadaffi; (incidently Brucie) - those names are "insults" - "mealy-mouthed apologist hypocrite who supports terrorist states and their armourers" is a pretty fair description of how the three of you have behaved here and elsewhere.   
I have no intention of repeating information I have already produced - "you'll have had your facts and figures" as the ladies of Morningside would say, you have acknowledges those as facts by attempting to explain them away as unimportant (one more time, "sniper bullets" and "Snipers have to practice"); renaging on that acceptance is not going to work - done deal, I'm afraid.
Neither is continually accusing me of not condemning Russia and China - I have and I do, but as far as I'm concerned, this as no more of a crime against humanity than supplying Keith's "sniper bullets" to cut down civilians in Homs (or having supplied the wherewithal to train snipers so they can cut those civilians down more efficiently, if you'd rather).
Demanding the repetition of evidence that has already been produced AND ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED - ONCE AGAIN "SNIPER BULLETS" and "SNIPERS HAVE TO PRACTICE" IS PART OF YOUR WAR OF ATTRITION AND IT AIN'T GONNA WORK HERE
"YOU are the one who refuses to take those who support Assad to task"
Not me Brucie - it is Keithie who has proposed supplying riot control gear to Assad - you can't get better support for a dictator than that (unless you claim that supplying him with military equipment to cut down civilians hasn't happened, of course) - he has neither acknowledged nor withdrawn that statement, so it stands as open and continued support for human rights crimes as far as I'm concerned.
As far as "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past", it has no place here, but I HAVEN'T AND I DON'T - BUT IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE, FEEL FREE....
And incidently - repeated reference to my mother only serve to illustrate what a spinlelessly unprincipled and cowardly little shit you really are - please continue - as I said, she would have been delighted to have been involved.....
"You have not come out of this well Jim."
Matter of opinion Keithie, but it's you who will continue to be the one who suggested arming a murderous dictator with riot gear to suppress demands for democratic changes.
Now, if there is nothing else - back to my book.
Jim Carroll
PS Sorry this is so long Keithie - perhaps you can get somebody to read it for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:19 AM

You have already acknowledged that evidence by descibing the weapons sold to Assad as "sniper bullets",

Not true Jim.
I foolishly took your delusions seriously is all.
There is no such evidence.
None at all, or have you found some?

If we have all remembered wrongly your supporting those regimes in your copious Middle East postings, make liars of us by showing one word of criticism you have ever posted pre-2011.
I say there are none Jim.
You are a liar and a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:53 AM

There is not one single word of substance in what you have written, not one scrap of evidence to show I am wrong NOT ONE SINGLE SCRAP - JUST DENIAL
You have your evidence - you have acknowledged it with your own claim of "sniper bullets", as has Two-Gun Terry with his "sniper practice" - you even allude to it with your "a few bullets years ago".
I don't give a toss how long ago these bullets were sold - these people are feudal despots who should never have been supported in any way, five weeks, months, years or decades ago - and as for suggesting that these monsters could be sold riot control gear....
You avoid answering about trade with Gadaffi - weapons were being delivered to Libya while the protests were taking place - Britain is still trading with Bahrain, despite the fact that is more than a candidate for reform there, and should that happen, again protesters will be shot down by British weapons - even the Daily mail has expressed qualms about that - but not you gang of comedians.
"make liars of us by showing one word of criticism you have ever posted pre-2011"
No Keith - you make a liar of me by showing one word I have ever posted in their support - and that goes for the other two clowns.
Take your sewer morality and stuff it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:47 AM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population" - Jim Carroll(14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM)

WHAT sniper rifles sold by Britain? THERE WERE NONE

You have stated specifically that "BRITAIN" as in the UK Government sold arms to Assad's regime in Syria that were being used to kill, nay "slaughter" Syrian citizens in Homs - All Keith, myself and others have done is to point out that that is totally untrue and a complete and utter misrepresentation - as usual you are talking out of your arse.

"The 'dirty secret' of British arms sales to Libya just months before Gaddafi slaughtered pro-democracy protesters" - Jim Carroll (15 Feb 12 - 05:20 AM)

What has that to do with the subject under discussion? Diversion "Christmas", attempting to draw peoples attention away from the fact that you have boobed?

British "Arms Sales"?? You come up with:

Yemen - Body armour and night vision goggles = Arms (You are joking aren't you?

Syria - Small arms ammunition (or in your terms small arms arms) sold in 2009 current killing started in Syria on 15th March 2011 - No weapons sold to them at all.

Saudi Arabia - Sniper rifles; aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers.

"You have described opposition to the selling of weapons to a brutal murderous regime as Britophobia." - WHAT WEAPONS??

"There is horror in Homs at present - its people are being slaughtered by a despotic thug - with weapons sold to him by Russia, China and Britain" - I ask again WHAT BRITISH WEAPONS??

"I doesn't mastter if it's approved or not - it has been sold to a state which is massacring its own people."

Rather disingenuous Jim and a total misrepresentation of the facts - small arms ammunition(small quantity at that, not sold by the British Government) sold in 2009 (nothing since)to a state that started cracking down on protesters two years AFTER the sale had taken place.

Tell me Jim where was this Government crystal ball with it's two year look-ahead in 2006? Must have been in for a service eh? Otherwise the financial crisis might have been averted.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:04 AM

You have your evidence
What Jim?

Has Britain sold any actual, lethal weapons to these client states of yours?
e.g. tanks, guns, and bombs like China and Russia supply them with barely a word against from you?

And will you acknowledge the millions spent for our service people to fly actual combat missions to protect Libyan civilians?

And should the Gaza regime be allowed to acquire weapons Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:47 AM

Whether it was rifles or ammunition (the article says "small arms") it was sold to a Middle Eastern despot who is now in the process of slaughtering his people (a sniper rifle is little more than an ornament without ammunition).
It was also the case that sniper rifles and tear gas were sold to Gadaffi and delivered while the protests were taking place - are we to hear any condemnation of this from you pair?
These are both cases of weapons being sold to despotic killers and licenced by the British government - and this is what you continue to support by denial. I ask again - in the experience of a gun-nut, how many people can £300,000's worth of ammunition kill - or more to the point (from your own analysis) HOW MANY CIVILIANS ARE LIKELY TO BE KILLED BY SNIPERS WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED USING SUCH AMMUNITION.
It is not me who is defending terrorist regimes - it is you pair of turds.
"where was this Government crystal ball with it's two year look-ahead in 2006?"
These people are undemocratic despots who should not at any time be provided with weapons to back up thier despotism - haven't we learned this from Britain having supplied parts "to ensure that Mugabe's Hawk jets were kept in the air."
Are you putting up the same argument for the present sale of arms to Bahrain or are we to wait for the slaughter to begin there?
"China and Russia supply them with barely a word against from you?"
The more this is repeated, the bigger this lie becomes - I condemned all arms sales to oppressive and unstable, undemocratic regimes at the beginning, the difference is I include British arms sales in that statement - you pair do not.
I assume we have now abandoned the accusation that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past". I also assume that Keith's proposed support for Assad by supplying him with riot control equipment still stands?
What - no insult for my mother Terminus; she will be disappointed!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:19 AM

"I assume we have now abandoned the accusation that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China. YOU have repeatedly supported those entities in the past"."




No, I have not abandoned that claim, as you have shown you will only criticize Israel and Britain, and make NO COMMENT about the far greater crimes of others. You are like a person demanding to execute a person who spits on the sidewalk, while letting a known murderer go free without comment.

Since YOU HAVE SUPPORTED Hamas in the past ( see the threads on Gaza) YOU ARE NOW IN THE POSITION YOU CLAIM Britain is in- YOU SHOULD NEVER have supported them in the past BECAUSE OF THEIR PRESENT ACTIONS. YOU are applying that to Britain, therefore I am justified in applying it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 10:29 AM

The more this is repeated, the bigger this lie becomes - I condemned all arms sales to oppressive and unstable, undemocratic regimes at the beginning
No. You made the anodyne, blanket condemnation, but the singled out Britain for attack although by far the least offender.

I assume we have now abandoned the accusation that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China.

No.It stands. We all remember you doing it.

You could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's tanks and guns, and for the fact that those tanks and guns were not supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:43 AM

A few resources, just in case they could be useful ÎÑÉ ÂÈÂäóóó :

Resources

Flame resources

Insult dictionary


shakespeare insults

British insults

International Cursing and Swearing Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:49 AM

"Since YOU HAVE SUPPORTED Hamas in the past ( see the threads on Gaza) "
Post the informastion please
I do not support any organisation that is religion driven and I have consistently said so - that includes Moslem, Zionist, Christian... whoever
I have said that ordiinary Palestinians need protection from their terrorist-state neighbours (especiailly those that supprort racist regimes by offerng to sell the nuclear warheads -and as things stand, that protection has to come from their elected government - whatever I might think ofits policies - and that is the only view I have expressed on Hamas I have never at any time supported, or even mentioned Hezbollah, and I certainly have never supported Iran, Russia or China in any shape or form - if you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it or ram it up your lying holes!
"We all remember you doing it.
" you can't even remeber who told you to caim "all male Pakistanis...."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:15 PM

Isn't it time to send Jim Carroll back to the Murrooghtoohy Home for the Bewildered?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:46 PM

Any progress on finding that quote lads?
"Isn't it time to send Jim Carroll back to the Murrooghtoohy Home for the Bewildered? "
Isn't it time you said something intelligent other than the snide snippets which seem to be the total output from what passes for your brain?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:55 PM

You are safe Jim.
No-one is likely to go trawling through all your many and massive posts on Israel and its despicable neighbours.

If you are so confident, you are passing up a wonderful opportunity to make liars of us all.
Funny how all your readers agree though.

You could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's tanks, rocket launchers and guns, and for the fact that those tanks, rocket launchers and guns were not supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 02:42 PM

"No-one is likely to go trawling through all your many and massive posts on Israel and its despicable neighbours."
What you are trying to say Keith is that you've spent the last hour or so dredging your way though them to find my support for Hezbollah, Hamas, China and Russia - and have utterly failed.
You have my attitude on religion and politics - you have always had it - it has never changed - but that hasn't stopped you or your half-witted friends from lying about it.
Don't suppose it's worth my asking for an apology - no? didn't think so.
What a bunch of brain-dead tossers!
I would gladly discuss Palestine with you but I don't think I could take your whining and snivelling "thread drift" at this time of night.
Don't suppose you'd care to discuss the morality of supplying weapons and ammunition to states like Tanzania, Libya or Syria - no? Didn't think that one was a goer either.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:28 PM

Syria Jim.
Britain supplied NO WEAPONS AT ALL.
Which part of that do you not get?
You made it up.
It was a lie.
Others supplied lethal kit by the thousands of tons.
They got barely a word.
This was a thread about suffering people, and you made it into just another Brit basher.

If you do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's tanks, rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns, and for the fact that those tanks, rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns were not supplied by Britain.

WIIL YOU JIM?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 03:11 AM

Not waving but drowwning - bye-eee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:02 AM

No-one thought you were waving Jim.
You have spectacularly and publicly drowned yourself in a wave of delusions, lies and prejudice, and I have enjoyed watching you do it to yourself.
It is just a shame that this thread was prevented by you from highlighting the tragedy in Syria, for which Britain is TOTALLY BLAMELESS AND ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS, as in Libya.

There are some lies even you can not tell!
You were congenitally incapable of pretending not to support all those regimes when it came to not supporting the one in Gaza.
You could not pretend to be objective enough to recognise the outstanding achievements of Britain in this.

You have ruined this thread, but I am so glad I gave you this opportunity to reveal your true nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:17 AM

You have deliberately, openly and obviously lied about another member of this forum.
You have proposed the Britain should arm a despot (who is still in the process of slaughtering his people,) with anti-riot gear in order to quash their protest
You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain.
And last, but not least by any means, you are attemting to divert attention away from the Part Britain played in arming Colonel Gadaffi - today of all days
Hot off today's press, from the (no doubt lying) Conservative Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8786897/How-Britain-courted-armed-and-trained-a-Libyan-monster.html
not forgetting:
http://rt.com/news/uk-british-arms-gaddafi/
or:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya

You are a reactionary, extreme right-wing mess; why on earth should I, or anybody feel the need to justify themselves or defend their opinions from your lies and distortions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:03 AM

You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain.
Lie or delusion Jim?

It is only true that a licence was issued, to someone, years ago for a few weeks supply of some kind of bullets.
They probably were never supplied (those who supply the weapons also supply the ammunition) and they were certainly not British made anyway.

If you do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's assault rifles, tanks, multiple rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns, and for the fact that those assault rifles, tanks, multiple rocket launchers, RPGs, aircraft and big guns were not supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 06:43 AM

From Jim's telegraph piece.
Last week, a spokesman for the DSO insisted it "did not export equipment where there is a clear risk it could be used for internal repression".

NO WEAPONS supplied AT ALL.
Just a system fro command and control.
Right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 01:14 PM

Jim Carroll
"Despite the warnings from HRW and other organisations of a worsening rights situation in Bahrain, the Foreign Office's own statistics reveal that the number of arms exports licences continued to increase in 2010 from 34 to 42 with no licences being refused. Arms exports to Libya, where lethal force has already been used against demonstrators, appear to have followed a similar pattern with exports last year including tear gas, and £3.2 million worth of ammunition including for crowd control..
Denis MacShane, a former Labour minister, said: "We should be suspending all arms exports used to repress pro-democracy protests. The idea that British weapons could be used to fire on and injure children makes me feel ill."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 01:31 PM

Jim Carroll
British arms exports to Libya      
government figures show export licences for £3.4 million

sales increased dramatically at the end of last year with a lot of licences granted for "crowd control ammunition" and tear gas.

On 26th February 2011, the European Union banned the supply to Libya of arms, ammunition and related material.
In addition to the UN measures, the Council also prohibited trade with Libya in equipment which might be used for internal repression.
However, up until this point, we and others were making a lot of money selling arms and military equipment for internal repression.
Military exports increased dramatically in the last months of published figures, selling over £8million. There appears to be a lot of licences granted for `crowd-control`.
The most recently published show that in 2010, Britain exported directly to Libya:
all-wheel drive vehicles with ballistic protection, combat vehicles
ammunition for wall and door breaching projectile launchers
crowd control ammunition and tear gas/irritant ammunition as well as "training tear gas/irritant ammunition", anti-riot/ballistic shields,smoke canisters, smoke hand grenades, stun grenades
sniper rifles, assault rifles, silencers and small arms ammunition
components for: combat aircraft, machine guns, military small arms training equipment, semi-automatic pistols, sniper rifles, multi-role missiles, optical target surveillance equipment and surface-to-air missiles
military: cameras, vehicles, software, communications and infrared/thermal imaging equipment and military small arms training equipment
technology for the use of military: vehicles and communications equipment, target recognition training equipment, software for the simulation of military operation scenarios
laser rangefinders and optical target surveillance equipment
military equipment was also sold to France and Italy who then sold it onto Libya.
A mass sale also took place in mid-2009 of over £12million spent on just:
combat shotguns
crowd control ammunition
equipment for the use of military communications equipment and shotguns
military communications equipment
military helmets
small arms ammunition
tear gas/irritant ammunition
ammunition for wall and door breaching projectile launchers, small arms ammunition and more tear gas/irritant ammunition all listed as for training
The Libyan government seems to have used Britain to help build a stockpile in readiness for protests. Now both sides are using our weapons on each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 02:46 AM

In addition to the UN measures, the Council also prohibited trade with Libya in equipment which might be used for internal repression.

The last Labour government notoriously cosied up to Gaddafi for reasons that probably seemed good at the time.
I was critical here of the deal involving the Lockerbie bomber.
No peep from Jim.
British policy is that it does not sell equipment that can be used for internal repression.
There are obviously grey areas, but that policy makes us better than most of our competitors.

Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest.
That is why Gaddafi, Hamas and Assad use old fashioned bullets on protesters.
Bullets kill and discourage.
Tear gas disperses one protest but changes no minds in favour of the government and they all live to continue the work.
The protest gets global coverage and grows and spreads.

If you REALLY do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.
I have mentioned that a few times now.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's
tanks,
rocket launchers,
RPGs,
aircraft and
big guns,
and for the fact that none of the above were supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 03:20 AM

....and, you could acknowledge that your claim that Britain supplied weapons to Syria was made up, and that Britain is blameless for the horrors there, unlike others.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 04:21 AM

"The last Labour government"
And the "last Labour Government" was what..... French, German, Chinese, Russian.....? You appear at long last to be coming around to the fact that a BRITISH GOVERNMENT supported Gadaiffi and supplied him with the wherewithal to kill Libyans - in the form of: combat shotguns, crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of military communications equipment and shotguns, military communications equipment, military helmets, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, ammunition for wall and door breaching, projectile launchers, small arms ammunition and more tear gas/irritant ammunition.
What the **** does it matter which govenment it was - especially as Cameron is still pimping military equipment at arms fairs in the Middle East in order to sell to despots, including to Bahrain, whose people took part in 'Arab Spring' protests.
I don't remember any shrieks of protest from the opposite benches at a time when the Libyan deals were being brokered, perhaps you could put up a link to show there was.
I can't help but notice that you have attempted to blank out the part played by Britain in grooming Gadaffi's son to take over from his father - a non-event apparently, as far as you are concerned.
"and, you could acknowledge that your claim that Britain supplied weapons to Syria was made up"
No - it was your claim that what Britain supplied to Syria was "sniper bullets" which either went into the training of the people who are now using them, and/or are being used at the present time on men, women and children in "The Horror of Homs", as you so aptly describe it. I am not aware that Syria has been in a shooting war with anybody recently and could not have used them up other than in training, or actually on their own citizens - what's to acknowledge?
There is nothing whatever "made up" about these facts - they are documented, fully reported and put up on this thread for all to see. You have seen them yourself; you described the equpment supplied as "sniper bullets" - "SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR SYRIA, That would be for the sniper rifles Jim," - you now appear to be dismissing the evidence of your own eyes.
In addition to this YOU HAVE PROPOSED HERE THAT IT WOULD BE PERMISSABLE TO SUPPLY ASSAD WITH "ANTI-RIOT EQUIPMENT (FOR WHICH I HAVE BEEN, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, "BANGING ON ABOUT" FOR YOU TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND JUSTIFT - WITHOUT SUCCESS) THIS IS TANTAMOUNT TO SELLING A DICTATOR EQUIPMENT TO CRUSH A PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT.
The only "making up" that has gone on here is the suggestion that I have supported Hamas, et al, in order to deliberately drift the thread away from the uncomfortable facts (which you and your three cronies desperately searched for and failed to find - as if it would make the slightest difference to the argument) You were one of the gruesome threesome who lied about this "No. It stands. We all remember you doing it".
The other two slimeballs have had the good sense to slither back into their holes - I suggest you do the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 04:31 AM

Forgot:
"And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by saluting Britain"
The Queen - gawd bless 'er!
You pompous flag-waving little prat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 05:53 AM

I don't remember any shrieks of protest from you either Jim.
I don't remember you ever criticising Libya, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah=, Jordan Egypt or any so-called revolutionary Arab government prior to 2011.
Because you never did.
Just endlessly criticised Israel, Britain and USA.
And yes, if you were not just driven by prejudice, you could salute the good while criticising shortcomings.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 06:25 AM

"I don't remember any shrieks of protest from you either Jim."
They didn't think to ask me Keith - if they had have done I would have ordered them to stop selling arms to fascist dictators immediately, but there you go!!!
"I don't remember you ever criticising Libya....."
I don't remember you criticising Viet Nam, Korea, The Wars of the Roses, the Seige of Waterford......
I don't remember the subjects ever coming up - perhaps you'd like to point out where I participated in any such discussions and supported any of them - you have failed dismally to do so over Palestine.
I have never supported a religious-influenced regime as you have lyingly claimed - you, on the other hand fanatically supported the terrorist state that has helped massacre thousands of refugees, ethnic cleansed villagers out of their homes, annexed land, built a Berlin-type wall through Arab homesteads, attempted to starve and and humiliate a whole people with a blockade, slaughter aid workers, used heavy artilery and chemical weapons in built-up areas.... and attempted to sell nuclear warheads to a racist regime at the time as they, the South African apartheid regime, were slaughtering schoolchildren.
You continue to push a thread-drift, having whined endlessly about others doing so (when we haven't) in order to avoid justifying, explaining or even acknowleging the support for despotic regimes with supplys of military equipment - which is the subject you started with this thread.
Answer or refute one single point I have made about Britain's involvement in the arms trade - don't thread drift - the Arab Spring countries will do nicely thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 06:38 AM

I don't remember the subjects ever coming up
The dealing with Gaddafi WAS debated here.
The Middle East was endlessly debated here.
I criticised some of those regimes.
YOU HAVE NEVER CRITICISED ANY OF THEM!
Just Israel, Britain and USA

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 07:27 AM

Now you are flailing around with baseless accusations
You are trying to claim my support for religious regimes in debates I have not taken part in - answer the queations and stop thread drifting - to use your own quote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 12 - 09:14 AM

Britain had previously expelled all Libyan diplomats and co-operated with USA in attacks on Gaddafi.
When he put out peace feelers, should they have been rejected out of hand?
You express outrage now, but did not at the time.
Do YOU remember ever criticising Libya, Hamas, Egypt, Syria etc. pre 2011?

If you REALLY do not support those vile regimes surrounding Israel, you could show your contempt for Hamas by condemning anyone trying to get weapons to them.

And, you could show that you are not prejudiced against Britain by commending Britain for being blameless and a force for good on Syria, and for spending millions actively defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's
tanks,
rocket launchers,
RPGs,
aircraft and
big guns,
and for the fact that none of the above were supplied by Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 04:26 AM

You have desperately attempted to prove my support for extremist governments by trawling my postings for something I have written - you and your three friends (including the one who saw fit to hurl his obscenities at my mother, bringing this argument down to the level it is now at) failed dismally Bizarrely you now appear to be attempting to prove your case with something I HAVENT SAID
You are the only one here who has supported a terrorist regime in its attempt to persecute and murder its people font color=red>"If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things"
".....defending Libyan civilians from Gaddafi's"
As either the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph pointed out (can't remember which) - thanks to the fact that Britain supplied Gadaffi with military equipment, both the Libyan government forces and the rebels were fighting each other with weapons supplied by Britain - that is what the Libyan people have to be thankful to Britain for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 11:26 AM

"What - no insult for my mother Terminus; she will be disappointed!"

No she won't "Christmas"- not if what you stated was true - but there again very little of what you ever state is true or anywhere even remotely close to it.

The ONLY thing "that ordiinary Palestinians need protection from" "Christmas" are those out and out thieves and bandits who have laid claim to being their leaders since 1921. Had they done any of the following Gaza would be richer than Monaco today (1st in HDI index; GDP (PPP) $6.888billion total/ $186,175 per capita; GDP (nominal) $6.581billion total/$172,676 per capita)

- Accepted the 1947 UN two-state plan at the same time as the Jews in Palestine did
- Formally recognised the State of Israel and its right to exist at any time during the last 63 years
- Actually used the billions given them in aid to benefit the lot of the people, instead of perpetuating a war that they simply cannot win.

"You have objected when it is pointed out that some of the sniper bullets now cutting down civilian men women and children on the streets of Homs (or went into the training of the snipers) came from Britain."

There is not one shred of evidence to back up that contention of yours "Christmas" - still sticking to that "small arms arms" thing I see.

To pursue this fable of yours, into a thread about what is going on in Homs, Syria you have introduced by way of diversion and deflection - Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Bahrain - Where are you headed next Jim-Lad?? It won't matter because one thing is certain - Britain sold no weapons to Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:10 PM

Jim, Britain sold no weapons to Libya.
You lied to push your dogma driven agenda.

Bizarrely you now appear to be attempting to prove your case with something I HAVENT SAID
Yes. It is significant that you have never criticised these vile repressive regimes while spewing out pages of criticism of Israel, Britain and USA.

that is what the Libyan people have to be thankful to Britain for
I followed the news reports closely.
I found nothing to suggest that British supplied equipment was found useful to Gaddafi at all.
The Libyan people are very, very thankful to Britain for the diplomatic support we gave them against Gaddafi, and for actually going into combat to defend their civilians from Gaddafi's Russian supplied aircraft, tanks, multiple rocket launchers and big guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 05:34 PM

"If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things"

You prefer them to use live rounds on the demonstrators do you Jim?
Are you some kind of monster?!

Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest.
That is why Gaddafi, Hamas and Assad use old fashioned bullets on protesters.
Bullets kill and discourage, and the hospitals can be trawled for survivors.
Tear gas disperses one protest but changes no minds in favour of the government and they all live to continue the work.
The protest gets global coverage and grows and spreads.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 02:56 AM

You pair really are prepared to go to extraordinary lengths to justify the selling of military equipment to mass murdereres of their people by Britain.
You have had the description of what sniper bullets are having on the population of Homs - a refresher:

"Snipers rule the streets in the besieged Syrian city of Homs...
For months, the Syrian city of Homs has been the focus of opposition to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, with almost daily protests since the summer.....
Among the bullet-scarred walls of neighborhoods under siege, he encountered the government snipers who prowl the city picking off their victims apparently indiscriminately and at will.
He found snipers stationed on almost every main street, manning checkpoints on both sides and firing at anybody crossing the street between 4 p.m. and 8 a.m. the next day -- imposing a kind of unofficial curfew.
He spoke to one woman whose daughter was seven months pregnant when she was shot in the head as she tried to venture out of the house to do some shopping. The snipers kept shooting as relatives tried to reach the pregnant woman where she lay dead in the street, before finally they were able to bring her body back to her mother's home.
"I had to cross several times exactly the same streets where people got shot several minutes before. And you arrive at a scene where half an hour ago someone got shot and 30 minutes later people are crossing the street normally," he said.
Residents describe the daily struggle of life in the cross-hairs, some telling how they throw bread and other supplies across the street to others who cannot safely traverse to reach a shop."

There you go - 'only sniper bullets.
You identify them as such - try to minimise their effect - deny they have been sold - then attempt to identify me as having the same foul opoinions as yourselves, first by claiming that I have supprted religious extremist groups, then, when that fails, accusing me for something I have not said.
One of you squalids has proposed that sniper bullets are not enough and that it would be ok to supply this monster with "riot control equipment"
"Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest."
WHAT!!!!!! - What is to it there for - to entertain the demonstrators so they do not feel they are being ignored?
That is as moronic as it gets - well done Keith.

"Britain sold no weapons to Libya"
So the lists were made up - a report of a demontration in London last year:

"Kayaks attempt to stop warship getting to Activists on inflatable Kayaks have this morning attempted to stop the Destroyer HMS Dauntless from reaching the Excel Centre where it is due to be displayed at the DSEi Arms fair.
Protesters confront battleships en route to world's largest arms fair 10.09.2011 10:49
Protesters confront battleships en route to world's largest arms fair
Today, warships en route to the world's largest arms fair were disrupted by protesters angry at a trade that inflicts untold misery and death across the planet. Protesters manoeuvred kayaks in front of the ships to prevent them gaining access to Royal Victoria Dock.
At a time of austerity and government cuts, East London will be hosting Defence Systems Equipment International (DSEi) from 13th - 16th September, with much of the cost borne by the taxpayer.
Every 2 years the ExCeL centre in London's dockyards welcomes dictators, arms dealers and suspected war criminals in an attempt to persuade them to buy British weaponry. Many of the weapons used by dictators to kill demonstrators during the Arab spring were procured from DSEi exhibitors.
This year DSEi falls on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people. It is worth remembering that (according to the British Medical Journal) nearly 400,000 people die every year from armed
conflict.
A spokesperson for Disarm DSEi stated "The same politicians that shed crocodile tears for the 9/11 victims are fuelling the fires of war and armed conflict around the world. It is up to ordinary people to intervene to stop the obscene traffic in arms. DSEi, the world's largest arms fair, must be stopped."
This is just one action in a concerted campaign. Protesters have vowed to disrupt DSEi throughout the week, including a day of action on the 13th to blockade the DLR and prevent delegates attending the event.
Several warships will form part of this year's DSEi – hosting receptions and showcasing military technology, including HMS Dauntless, the pride of the British Navy.
Over 1200 arms companies will be selling their wares to 25,000 buyers from around the world, including military delegations from some of the world's most repressive, human rights abusing regimes.
DSEi is held in Newham, one of London's most impoverished boroughs. Whilst the government has subsidised DSEi by £320,000 and paid up to £4million for policing, Newham council are being forced to cut
£116 million from their budget over the next four years.
For years leading up to the "Arab Spring", arms companies have exported equipment to the regimes which are now being condemned by governments rapidly backtracking on their support. A report issued in April this year confirmed that since 2009 the UK have exported components for military helicopters to Algeria, sub-machine guns and tear gas to Bahrain, machine guns to Egypt and hand grenades to Jordan. British defence contractors have also sold small arms ammunition to Syria, hand grenades, sniper rifles and tear gas to Saudi Arabia and shotguns to Morocco."
Jim Carroll
"No she won't "Christmas"
Haven't been called since I was 10, by somebody of the same age.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 03:20 AM

I made a mistake.
Sorry.
Having to discuss so many nation states on a thread supposedly about Syria is enough to confuse anyone.

The opening to my 20 Feb 12 - 05:10 post should have read

Jim, Britain sold no weapons to Libya.
You lied to push your dogma driven agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 03:25 AM

Now re crowd control equipment.
I have nothing but contempt for the vile repressive regime in Gaza, but I would be happy if someone provided them with non-lethal stuff to use instead of live fire on their own people.
Why do you consider bullets best for that Jim?
Do you approve of those thugs being supplied lethal weapons?

Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest.
That is why Gaddafi, Hamas and Assad use old fashioned bullets on protesters.
Bullets kill and discourage, and the hospitals can be trawled for survivors.
Tear gas disperses one protest but changes no minds in favour of the government and they all live to continue the work.
The protest gets global coverage and grows and spreads.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:31 AM

"Britain sold no weapons to Libya."
These have all been reported in the press as having been sold to Libya - on what basis are you claiming that they have not; are the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, The Guardian all "dogma driven"?
"combat shotguns, crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of military communications equipment and shotguns, military communications equipment, military helmets, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, ammunition for wall and door breaching, projectile launchers, small arms ammunition and more tear gas/irritant ammunition."
"Non-lethal crowd control equipment does not crush protest."
Crowd control equipment is used specifically to prevent civilians from demonstrating - it wounds, maims, blinds and scars (often permenantly), and can kill demonstrators. The purpose for its use is to dicourage and prevent demonstrators from expressing an opininion - in this case against a murderous dictator. You have indicated that it could be sold to this dictator who is now slaughtering his people including with "sniper bullets" (your description), possibly the ones that were sold to him by Britain (are you now saying he wasn't sold "small arms ammunition - despite press reports that he was?).
By suggesting the sale of "riot control equipment" you are proposing it is permissable to this regime with further sales of weapons and equipment - on what grounds are you suggesting this?
If you are so desperate to drift the thread to the territorial war that is going on in Palestine, why did you protest about a discussion of weapens supplied by Britain on this thread, and claim it to be "thread drift"?
You have my opinion on that conflict - you pored over it recently in order to find my "support" for one side or the other - you failed dismally.
You have my opinion on that war - you are the ony one who has given support to massacres, blockades, terrorising and abuse of civilians, the use of heavy artillery and chemicals (not unsimilar to what is going on in Homs at present).... and all the other atrocities - your support has been "the accused said he didn't do it M'lud".
You want a thread drift - what is your opinion of Israel attempting to sell nuclear warheads to Apartheid South Africa - "agenda driven lies", inventions of a disaffected press... please let us know?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:37 AM

Missed a bit
"Why do you consider bullets best for that Jim?"
YOU ARE THE ONLY SCUMBAG HERE SUGGESTING THAT THESE PEOPLE BE SOLD ANY WEAPONS WHATEVER - IF NOT - WHO ELSE HAS MADE SUCH A SUGGESTION -AND WHERE?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:53 AM

They have plenty enough for gunning down demonstrators alraedy.
I would say it was the lesser of evils if someone supplied them non-lethal crowd control.
You want them to go on using lethal bullets presumably.
Not nice Jim.
(But Hamas seems happy with that anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:24 AM

You have proposed sending riot weapons to a murderous dictator,
You have consistently denied documented evidence of weapons supplied by Britain
Congratulations - you have just added two magnificent items to your already glowing CV
There is nowhere else to go with this.
Many thanks for giving me the opportunity to air my views on Britain's totally unprincipled involvement in the arms trade; thanks particularly in choosing a subject which displays the cynical ruthlessness with which this trade is pursued in selling to a mass murderer attempting to put down an unarmed and oppressed people - echoed perfectly by your own hysterically fanatical nationalism in attempting to deny the documented evidence put before you.
In taking the stance you have, you have shown the concern you expressed in your o.p. no more than an exercise in hypocracy - but there again, you are quite good (if a little ham-fisted) at crocodile tears, as you have shown in the past.
I'll leave you to try and extract yourself out of the hole of your own digging.
Jim Carroll
PS Further thanks are due to you for my finding out that Israel offered to trade nuclear warheads with the viciously racist Apartheid regime in South Africa; without your help....
Your silence on the matter indicates that even you would not dare deny it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 08:35 AM

You have proposed sending riot weapons to a murderous dictator,
Yes. You clearly believe that lethal weapons are better.
That is deranged.

You have consistently denied documented evidence of weapons supplied by Britain
That is a lie, except that a few posts ago I typed "Libya" instead of "Syria"
This thread is about Syria.
YOU lied that Britain supplied weapons to Syria.
Will you take that lie back Jim?

PS Further thanks are due to you for my finding out that Israel offered to trade nuclear warheads with the viciously racist Apartheid regime in South Africa; without your help....
Your silence on the matter indicates that even you would not dare deny it.

This is not the place to discuss events of half a century ago, but briefly, I don't believe it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 11:59 AM

"You pair really are prepared to go to extraordinary lengths to justify the selling of military equipment to mass murdereres of their people by Britain."

Ermm No ""Christmas" neither Keith, myself or anyone else attempting to inject you with a dose of reality and commonsense are, nor have been justifying anything. What we have done is demonstrably proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that The British Government SOLD NO WEAPONS TO SYRIA"

Now as far as your snipers in Homs go:
1: First victim shot was when? (6th May 2011)

2: Were any of the 15 civilians and 11 troops killed that day killed by snipers? - "Christmas" will have all the information on this and he will produce it when he replies in detail in answer to this question.

3: Clashes continue on 8th May gunmen attack a bus - no snipers there

4: 10th May 5 to 9 people killed but they were killed by tank and machine-gun fire - not snipers

5: 20th May 11 dead, killed by machine gun fire - not snipers

6: 27th May 3 dead with direct clashes with the military - not snipers

7: 30th May 7 dead civilians and 1 dead soldier direct clashes with the Army

8: 17th July 40 dead due to shelling by tanks - not snipers

9: 29th August more violence this time machine gun fire - unconfirmed defections of soldiers from the Syrian Army

10: 28th October, Free Syrian Army in Bab al-Sebaa take on the Syrian Army loyal to Assad (17 soldiers were killed - maybe they were killed by snipers).

11: 29th October these clashes spread to Baba Amr and al-Qusur. In Baba Amr 20 soldiers were killed and 53 wounded (Could some of them have been killed by snipers "Christmas"?).

12: 3rd November, tanks opened fire on the Baba Amr district. More than 100 people, including civilians, were reportedly killed by the next day - Note by tanks not snipers.

13: 24th November, 11 defecting soldiers were killed and four wounded during clashes on the western outskirts of Homs. Later, the military conducted raids against farms further to the west killing another 15 people. "Raids against farms" - Do snipers carry out raids against farms Jim-Lad?

14: 25th November, six elite pilots, one technical officer and three other personnel were killed in Homs in an ambush by Free Syrian Army.

15: 4th December, 5 FSA insurgents were killed and 1 wounded

16: 5th December, 61 people were reported to be dead, 34 Sunnis and 27 Alawites. The London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said an activist on the ground reported seeing "the bodies of 34 civilians, in a square in the pro-regime neighbourhood of Al-Zahra, who had been abducted by the shabiha [pro-government militia] on Monday", according to the AFP news agency. The Observatory also reported the "shabiha" abducted a bus driver and his 13 passengers in Homs province on the 5th.

Snipers do not abduct their victims before shooting them or do you disagree "Christmas".

17: 9th December, fears of a massacre by government forces were building, due to a build up of troops, government militia (Shabeeha) and 500 tanks on the outskirts of the city and an increasing number of checkpoints - No mention of snipers

18: In mid-December Der Spiegel crew managed to smuggle themself inside the city of Homs where they witnesses Baba Amr district being completely under control of FSA soldiers with checkpoints erected at the edge of the district. According to local FSA commander Shabeeha and army snipers were positioned in approximately 200 places in Homs and were shooting on everything that moved in designated zones like Cairo street which runs through the center of the city.

There ya go "Christmas" - First mention of snipers shooting at people around the 18th December 2011 a good two years after some private individual received a licence to sell 7.62 NATO ammo to Syria. Now all you have to do is provide evidence that people shot by these snipers were armed with Austrian Steyr SSG69 rifles firing ammunition (Oh sorry, that should be "firing arms") supplied two years previously by an arms dealer based in Britain (i.e. NOT the British Government).

19: 24th to 27th December 61 people killed by artillery and tank fire - not by snipers - now tell us Jim-Lad who sold Assad the tanks and the artillery because so far they seem to have done the most damage.

20: Same old same old throughout January and February with tanks and artillery doing their worst. Assad's boys killing journalists did not help.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM

Here's one for you "Christmas"

Place: Homs

Date 27th December, 2011

"Some 70,000 protests gathered in central Homs during the official visit of Arab League observer mission and were later dispersed by tear gas."

Number of demonstrators killed = ZERO"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 04:30 PM

"You have proposed sending riot weapons to a murderous dictator,"

No I do not think anyone has done that. They have merely pointed out that it is better to confront a demonstration with non-lethal means than with tanks and artillery as Assad has done. But just to get things perfectly clear here, the murderous dictator we are talking about is Bashar al Assad of Syria, the same man and regime that supplies and supports Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza

"You have consistently denied documented evidence of weapons supplied by Britain"

Documented "evidence"?? What documented "evidence"? Newspaper articles that when you actually read them show nothing of the kind.

Don't ever sit on a jury "Christmas" whoever the accused was would be well and truly stuffed - you would not know "evidence" if it jumped up and bit you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 06:21 PM

Teribus, old friend, I hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 01:33 AM

Yes. Jim's refusal to accept a terrible truth make me want to bang my head too.
This thread was about the most terrible crime against humanity in recent years, yet our Lefties did not want to talk about it.
Except our most maniacal Marxist.
He could not allow it to expose those culpable because they are old Marxists or old Marxist mates.
Syria, Russia and China.
He tried to derail it be posting about numerous other countries, and by blatant lying to implicate an innocent party.
He lied that Britain supplied weapons to Syria.
He is still doing it.
What is your message to him 999?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 03:10 AM

It has become quite clear that imperialist interventions in the internal affairs of Syria under the pretext of "democracy," led by the governments of France and the United States, together with the British and German governments, are behind the mass media campaign against Syria, the campaign employing a number of Syrian dissidents in exile who have associated themselves with the US-Israeli project in the region.

Our people take the threats to our country seriously and stand together in confronting them. The foreign plots thus will not succeed in changing the national policy of our country: Syria's opposition to the US-Israeli project; Syria's struggle to liberate the Golan Heights; Syria's support for the struggle of the Palestinian people to liberate their land, to build an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, as well as for the struggles to liberate Iraq from the US occupation and South Lebanon from the Israeli occupation.

We very much appreciate the firm positive stances of Russia and China exposing the threats to Syria and giving full support to Syria in this crisis.

Now our party is working with other Syrian parties, the Syrian national opposition forces, and various currents of civil society in order to put in practice the proposal for a conference for national dialogue.

With our best comradely wishes,

Hunein Nemer
First Secretary of the Syrian Communist Party (Unified)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 11:43 AM

I have not read this whole thread, but I think it is the most likely place to post the fact that a well-respected and very brave, imo, journalist, an American, was killed in Homs, along with a very talented and up and coming French photojournalist. CLick Here for text and a video/telephone report, the last one on CNN of Marie Colvin.

This saddens me, greatly, esp. the footage of the baby who died as Colvin was being interviewed.

This HAS to stop!


kat

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 11:44 AM

Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9094287/Iran-warships-deployed-on-Syria-coast.html


"Enjoying the support of Iran and Russia, Mr Assad has shown little willingness to end the violence against his own people, despite growing pressure from the Arab League. Activists in Syria yesterday reported a large army build up around the restive cities of Homs and Hama, raising fears that the president is preparing to order fresh offensives against both. The Red Cross said it was attempting to negotiate a pause in the fighting to allow humanitarian supplies into vulnerable parts of the country."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/20/syria-iran-ships-china-civil-war_n_1288601.html


"Security forces have killed at least 5,000 people, according to human rights groups, in a campaign to crush the revolt while the Assad government says it has lost more than 2,000 soldiers and security agents in what it describes as a struggle against foreign-backed terrorists,

The conflict has also pitted Western and Gulf-led Arab powers against Assad allies Russia, China and Iran.

The former have condemned Assad for the bloodshed and called for him to step down. Beijing and Moscow say all sides are to blame for the violence and the crisis should be resolved through talks, not foreign intervention.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Feb 12 - 03:04 PM

The horror has been repeated every day since well before the start of this thread.
And it worsens and deepens.
Almost no criticism here of the ruthless inhumanity of Assad, or of Russia and China, the suppliers of the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people.

Instead, Jim has filled the thread with lies and criticism of utterly blameless Britain.
No humanity, just ideology.
A Marxist monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:23 AM

The line of attack by the 'weapons merchants' here seems to be that there is some support for Assad (by me?) for Assad on this thread.
What is happening in Syria shows that the regime should never have been sold weapons in the first place, by anybody - this includes the "only sniper ammunition" from Britain.
Nobody needed a "crystal ball" to know that Assad was a murderous thug - the Amnesty International report shows that the regime has been murdering and torturing for decades, yet this went uncommented on right up to the present events.
Despite this, a handful of rabid rightists on this forum have been attempting to justify/deny/play down (all at the same time) the sales of military equipment, including "sniper bullets" to Syria.
"yet our Lefties did not want to talk about it."
My early entry on this thread was to point out that a week ago a bunch of Tories and a Labour-cum-Tory had appeared on BBC's Question Time and carefully explained why the British Government did not intend to intervene in Syria, the argument being 'better the devil you know....'
The headline over an article in The Times yesterday summed up the response to that inaction by the Syrian people:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP
Without positive action by the UN (despite the veto) condemnation of the Assad regime is no more than empty words
At the very least, a trade embargo should have been put into place immediately it became plain what was happening.
"The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010. Although the EU–Syrian bilateral trade volume contracted in 2009 by almost 23% in account of the impact of the global crisis, the 2010 trade volume already surpasses the 2008 one. The EU is Syria's biggest trade partner covering 22.5% of Syrian trade while Syria ranks 50th for the EU."
"Jim's refusal to accept a terrible truth make me want to bang my head too."
Far from "the left not wanting to talk about it", left opposition to arms sales has been totally ignored and openly derided - Britain is the world's third greatest arms trader - in spite of the Arab Spring Cameron, recently attended an arms fair the purpose of which was to sell weapons to human rights abusers and possible war criminals
Prior to 2011 the British government listed Bahrain as a key market for arms exports.
The UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation, the government's arms sales promotion unit, supported the Bahrain International Airshow in 2010.
British armed forces have been used in support of sales efforts, demonstrating arms to the Royal Bahrain Artillery.
In 2010 equipment approved for export to Bahrain included tear gas and crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of aircraft cannon, assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles and sub-machine guns.
British arms are still being sold to Mugabe - BAE has links with the Zimbabwe regime to the tune of £20m.
In the past British firms have sold weapons and equipment to Syria and Libya and continues to sell them to oppressive feudal regimes regimes which are actual and potential human rights abusers.
It is not the left who "doesn't want to talk about it - it is the laeft that have always campaigned to stop it I seem to have read somewhere that Russia, one of Assad's main suppliers, is a Capitalist country - is that right?
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that weapons and equipment should not be sold to despots, sniper bullets or otherwise, and certainly not "anti-riot equipment, as has been obscenely suggested here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:25 AM

The line of attack by the 'weapons merchants' here seems to be that there is some support for Assad (by me?) for Assad on this thread.
What is happening in Syria shows that the regime should never have been sold weapons in the first place, by anybody - this includes the "only sniper ammunition" from Britain.
Nobody needed a "crystal ball" to know that Assad was a murderous thug - the Amnesty International report shows that the regime has been murdering and torturing for decades, yet this went uncommented on right up to the present events.
Despite this, a handful of rabid rightists on this forum have been attempting to justify/deny/play down (all at the same time) the sales of military equipment, including "sniper bullets" to Syria.
"yet our Lefties did not want to talk about it."
My early entry on this thread was to point out that a week ago a bunch of Tories and a Labour-cum-Tory had appeared on BBC's Question Time and carefully explained why the British Government did not intend to intervene in Syria, the argument being 'better the devil you know....'
The headline over an article in The Times yesterday summed up the response to that inaction by the Syrian people:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP
Without positive action by the UN (despite the veto) condemnation of the Assad regime is no more than empty words
At the very least, a trade embargo should have been put into place immediately it became plain what was happening.
"The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010. Although the EU–Syrian bilateral trade volume contracted in 2009 by almost 23% in account of the impact of the global crisis, the 2010 trade volume already surpasses the 2008 one. The EU is Syria's biggest trade partner covering 22.5% of Syrian trade while Syria ranks 50th for the EU."
"Jim's refusal to accept a terrible truth make me want to bang my head too."
Far from "the left not wanting to talk about it", left opposition to arms sales has been totally ignored and openly derided - Britain is the world's third greatest arms trader - in spite of the Arab Spring Cameron, recently attended an arms fair the purpose of which was to sell weapons to human rights abusers and possible war criminals
Prior to 2011 the British government listed Bahrain as a key market for arms exports.
The UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation, the government's arms sales promotion unit, supported the Bahrain International Airshow in 2010.
British armed forces have been used in support of sales efforts, demonstrating arms to the Royal Bahrain Artillery.
In 2010 equipment approved for export to Bahrain included tear gas and crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of aircraft cannon, assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles and sub-machine guns.
British arms are still being sold to Mugabe - BAE has links with the Zimbabwe regime to the tune of £20m.
In the past British firms have sold weapons and equipment to Syria and Libya and continues to sell them to oppressive feudal regimes regimes which are actual and potential human rights abusers.
It is not the left who "doesn't want to talk about it - it is the laeft that have always campaigned to stop it I seem to have read somewhere that Russia, one of Assad's main suppliers, is a Capitalist country - is that right?
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that weapons and equipment should not be sold to despots, sniper bullets or otherwise, and certainly not "anti-riot equipment, as has been obscenely suggested here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:34 AM

"Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".
Why - I think Iran is an apalling regime - but onthe other hand....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16954636
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:57 AM

Still Jim only criticises Britain!
Despite this, a handful of rabid rightists on this forum have been attempting to justify/deny/play down (all at the same time) the sales of military equipment, including "sniper bullets" to Syria.

What "sniper bullets" Jim.
There is no evidence, except that years ago a licence was issued for a few weeks supply of some kind of bullets, except Britain does not make any that Syria uses.
The weapons suppliers also supply the ammunition.
BRITAIN SUPPLIED NO WEAPONS TO SYRIA
YOU LIED JIM.
TAKE IT BACK.

Any comment on the worst crime against humanity for decades Jim, and who is responsible for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:15 AM

Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".
Nothing "supposed" about it BRITAIN SOLD ASSAD "SMALL ARMS AMMUNITON" (sniper bullets, I'm reliably informed by our 'arms experts' proving even the rightists brain-deads on this thread have accepted this to be true, even though they have tried to excuse it.
Why should you be "waiting for a comment" from me – I think Iran is every bit as appalling a regime as Syria, contrary to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16954636
Far from this situation being a "monster Marxist" problem, it seems that countries like Britain are so deeply in hock to these bastards that they have to go on trading with them as long as they can – hence the 'Question Time' response, I suspect.
Jim Carroll
PS Having terrible connection problems with this forum – can the forum fairy remove my duplicate posting

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:45 AM

The Telegraph, Guardian and Daily Mail all reported the sale of "small arms ammunition", presumably from Reuters, whose web-site also included the information The reports came with official arms sales figures which included "small arms ammunition" which you and your knuckles-along-the-ground friend identified it as "sniper bullets" and attempted to justify the sale and/or minimise its importance – now you are denying it.
"Waiting on Jim to make some comment on this, which happened AFTER the violence, unlike his supposed sales by "Britain".
Nothing "supposed" about it BRITAIN SOLD ASSAD "SMALL ARMS AMMUNITON" (sniper bullets, I'm reliably informed by our 'arms experts' proving even the rightists brain-deads on this thread have accepted this to be true, even though they have tried to excuse it.
Why should you be "waiting for a comment" from me – I think Iran is every bit as appalling a regime as Syria, contrary to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16954636
The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010.
EU goods exports to Syria 2010: €3.6 billion - EU goods imports from Syria 2010: €3.5 billion
Far from this situation being a "monster Marxist" problem, it seems that countries like Britain are so deeply in hock to these bastards that they have to go on trading with them as long as they can – hence the 'Question Time' response, I suspect.
My comment – don't support vicious regimes that massacre their people becuse it is "good for British business" – don't suppose you'd care to comment on trading with them and refusing to intervene in any other way than a "tut-tut".
Jim Carroll
PS Having terrible connection problems with this forum – can the forum fairy remove my duplicate posting

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:47 AM

"yet this [Syria being a despotic country] went uncommented on right up to the present events."

I did comment on it years back, but the comment got lost in anti-Israeli diatribe. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 07:57 AM

"I did comment on it years back, but the comment got lost in anti-Israeli diatribe. FYI."
Hard to distinguish one monster from another when they are all bombing civilians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:29 AM

Yes it is, Jim. That includes Israel, its neighbours and the Palestinians with the help of Hezbollah and Hamas, courtesy of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 08:50 AM

Israel/Palestine is a territorial dispute - as much as some would like to divert this discussion to that subject, it has nothing to do with the Arab Spring protests whatever particular flag you choose to fly under.
Stop drifting the thread otherwise you'll upset Keith.
It would be interesting to hear one comment about the west's continual reluctance to do anything other than 'condemn' Assad's behavior and its refusal to put into place a trade embargo - or are our economic interests too important to be put at risk?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:15 AM

Jim, I responded to your post. The whole Middle East is a territorial dispute.

1) The West, as you put it, does barely enough trade with Syria to make a difference. Syria could stop exporting everything now and it would matter not one jot or tittle to the West.

"Syria Import and Export Indicators and Statistics at a Glance

Total value of eports: $12.84 billion (2010 estimate)
Primary export items: crude oil, minerals, petroleum products, fruits and vegetables, cotton fiber, textiles, clothing, meat and live animals, wheat
Primary Export partners: Iraq (30.22% of total exports), Lebanon (12.21%), Germany (8.89%), Egypt (6.8%), Saudi Arabia (5.04%) and Italy (4.55%)

Total value of imports: $13.57 billion (2010 estimate)
Primary import items: machinery and transport equipment, electric power machinery, food and livestock, metal and metal products, chemicals and chemical products, plastics, yarn, paper
Primary import partners: Saudi Arabia (10.1% of total imports), China (9.95%), Turkey (6.97%), Egypt (6.44%), UAE (4.97%), Italy (4.93%), Russia (4.92%), Germany (4.38%) and Lebanon (4.12%)"

2) I haven't been snotty with you, so shove it. You're taking myopia to new heights.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:16 AM

That guest was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

"The whole Middle East is a territorial dispute."
I don't agree - the Arab Spring is an entirely different ball-game and one from which we could all benefit in terms of improving the situation there.
If it is mishandled there is a risk of the newly ruled states being pushed into the hands of the religious nutters (one of the reasons the Question Time panel gave for not getting involved).
Yesterday's Times article points directly to that fact:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP"
My comments on a trade embargo were aimed at The West in general, not Britain alone; to repeat
"The EU is the first trading partner for Syria with total trade amounting to approximately €7.18 billion in 2010. Although the EU–Syrian bilateral trade volume contracted in 2009 by almost 23% in account of the impact of the global crisis, the 2010 trade volume already surpasses the 2008 one. The EU is Syria's biggest trade partner covering 22.5% of Syrian trade while Syria ranks 50th for the EU."
"I haven't been snotty with you, so shove it.
And I haven't been snotty with you - not intentionally anyway; if that is the way my difference with you has come across, apologies.
While I certainly don't agree with you I have always been left with the impression that you listen to and respond to what others have to say - sadly lacking elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 09:46 AM

Sorry, Jim. I misunderstood. Pardon me.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:05 AM

"Sorry, Jim."
No problem - I think we are all going in circles more than a little - bound to get dizzy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 10:47 AM

Jim, Britain sold Syria NO WEAPONS.
Once a licence for some kind of bullets, but Britain makes none that Syria uses.
If you have evidence that it was siper rounds, or that any kind were actually supplied, show us.
I have seen none.

Almost no criticism by you of the ruthless inhumanity of Assad, or of Russia and China, the suppliers of the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people.

Instead, you continue to fill the thread with lies and criticism of utterly blameless Britain.
No humanity, just ideology.
A Marxist monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 11:12 AM

It would be interesting to hear one comment about the west's continual reluctance to do anything other than 'condemn' Assad's behavior and its refusal to put into place a trade embargo

Russia and China veto every attempt to get UN action.
Any opinion on that Jim?
Russia and China supply all the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people, and the weapons that fire them.
Any comment on that Jim.

Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 11:29 AM

"Russia and China veto every attempt to get UN action.

Russia and China supply all the shells and rockets raining down on the helpless people, and the weapons that fire them."

Our governments of any hue have made a pact with the devil they can't renege on. They've turned a blind eye to the crimes of China and Russia against their own (and in the case of the Tibetans, other) people to turn a profit, and now both countries can act in their own interests with impunity.

Let's be honest, if Hitler and chums were about today they'd get away with their horrors as long as trade and business weren't affected. That's the nasty, sordid little outcome of unfettered capitalism; it's rendered us morally and ethically bankrupt (because we're the torturers too these days) and it ignores the plight of the little people, such as those being slaughtered in Homs.

We might be firing the guns ourselves, but we're complicit in the act as we stand by doing nothing but talk and letting other brutal regimes dictate our lack of response. What a fuck up.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 01:41 PM

"Let's be honest, if Hitler and chums were about today [I think they are] they'd get away with their horrors as long as trade and business weren't affected. That's the nasty, sordid little outcome of unfettered capitalism; it's rendered us morally and ethically bankrupt (because we're the torturers too these days) and it ignores the plight of the little people, such as those being slaughtered in Homs."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:29 PM

"Any comment on that Jim."
Have condemned it from the beginning - have also pointed out that the fact that States such as these have the power of veto calls tinto question the credibility of the UN - read what people write.
"Once a licence for some kind of bullets"
Sniper bullets according to you and the other braindead.
However long ago it was (2009) Syria has not been in a shooting war so these missiles have been used to train the snipers killing the people of Homs and/or are the bullets now being used. The decades of torture and persecution that has gone on in Syria indicate that they should never have been sold to them in the first place - the fact that they were implicated Britain in the slaughter
"Those poor people need essential supplies."
These people need to be stopped getting killed first and foremost - a proven method of dealing with dictators is not to call them facile names but to threaten their economy and their power base.
So far you have attempted to rubbish every suggestion made to stop the killing and have come up with nothing yourself - in other wod, (as with the Question Time panel) DO NOTHING.
Jack has just said all that needs to be said - "We might be firing the guns ourselves, but we're complicit in the act as we stand by doing nothing but talk and letting other brutal regimes dictate our lack of response."
"A Marxist monster"
Since you have replaced name calling with argument - you are a racist, a flag waving nationalist - an apologist for selling arms to dictators - in other words a fascist prick.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:48 PM

Shock Horror! UK Sells Arms to Repressive Regimes
Posted on February 10, 2012 by Robert Farago
Did you know that arms sales are the UK's number one export? Without its military industrial complex footing the Bill, The Land of Hope and Glory's socialist economy would collapse. No wonder the left-leaning political press (e.g., the guardian.co.uk) aren't exactly up-in-arms about arms sales to repressive regimes. "How can Britain, one of the world's leading arms exporters, honour its stated commitment to promote human rights throughout the world?" the lede leads. "With difficulty," it pronounces. What follows is the journalistic equivalent of a mild rebuke. Kinda like torture via fifty lashes with a wet noodle. To wit:
Vince Cable, the business secretary, has admitted as much. "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
Cable's refreshing admission of what we all know anyway did not satisfy members of the Commons committee on arms export controls on Tuesday night, not least the chairman, the former Conservative defence minister, Sir John Stanley. He accused the government of adopting a "rosy tinted" and "over optimistic" view of "authoritarian regimes".
The MPs were questioning Cable and William Hague, the foreign secretary, about Whitehall's approval of exports, including crowd control ammunition, guns and ammunition to Libya, Bahrain, and Egypt, in the period leading up to the Arab Spring last year. The MPs also raised questions about reports that Saudi Arabia sent troops in British trucks to Bahrain during the protests in the Gulf state last year.
Hey, who knew? Maybe . . . lots of people. Back in April of last year, the right-leaning Daily Mail reported that UK approved £2.3bn in arms exports over 21 months. What's more:
Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures.
The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners.
Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia.
According to aljazeera.com, the U.S. racked-up $1.1b worth of arms sales to five slightly dodgy Middle Eastern countries in the same time period. I guess you never really know about these Arab Spring fling things. Back to today's Guardian:
Under official UK guidelines, no arms exports would be allowed that would exacerbate regional conflict or be used for internal oppression. "We don't have perfect foresight", Cable told the MPs.
Hague went further. "In the case of Libya no one predicted what was going to happen", he said as though Gaddafi had only turned into a dictator last year after Libyans in Benghazi began to rise up.
As far as Saudi Arabia was concerned, he said the government had raised concerns about its treatment of women and foreign workers. But 99 percent of Britain's exports to the Kingdom consisted of Typhoon jets. "They are not relevant to our concerns about these rights", said Hague.
And Saudi forces were sent into Bahrain last year "to guard installations but not to take part in dealing with unrest in Bahrain so they did not fall foul [of the export guidelines]".
So what did we learn today? Money walks and bullshit talks. No surprise there. Now, can we talk about how official United States arms sales to the Mexican government and police have armed narco-terrorists? No. Good day then.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:51 PM

If you have evidence that it was sniper rounds, or that any kind were actually supplied, show us.
I have seen none.

Britain is utterly innocent of this crime.
Those culpable are China, Russia and Assad's regime.

SO WHY, JIM, DO YOU POST SCREENFULS OF TEXT ABOUT BRITAIN AND ALMOST NOTHING AGAINST THEM??

Because they are old Marxists or old Marxists' mates, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 02:56 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:19 AM

You have already acknowledged that evidence by descibing the weapons sold to Assad as "sniper bullets",

Not true Jim.
I foolishly took your delusions seriously is all.
There is no such evidence.
None at all, or have you found some?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 03:31 PM

The Russian 7.62 round is older in design that the 7.62 NATO that a private arms seller in England was authorized to sell to Syria.

No proof that the ammunition was actually delivered and the permission to sell was revoked in a reasonable time.

Since the rifles used in Syria are Russian design and use ammunition that is not compatible with the 7.62 NATO rounds authorized, it is really a stretch to blame the Brits for the atrocities committed by Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 06:29 PM

Regardless the source of the bullets, the Syrian government has the weapons to fire the bullets. There is a more likely course here, and that's that arms merchants who give no loyalty to governments--only $$$$--sold the ammo. First, sniper rifles are best being bolt action and single shot. I wouldn't choose an FN for the task given alternatives. Second, without getting too high end, an off-the-shelf .308 will do the job. Add a scope and fire 100 rounds a day and be prepared to change the barrel every three months or so, re-sight and someone is in business. Hell, despite my disagreements with Jim--a guy I like in spite of our differences--none of it is rocket science. It's the mid-East, and there are LOTS of weapons around.

Certainly few 'western' countries have clean hands in terms of screwing other places over. China, India and Russia are equally dirty in this regard, and imo, the UN is a joke, a dangerous joke, but a joke nevertheless.

Keith, I happen to like you also, but there's no need to continue this kind of argument. I see that you and Jim disagree. OK. So what? Syrian people are still being killed and the Syrian government has not changed its philosophy in decades. This shit is not new. The Mukhabarat has been 'exposed' frequently by rights groups, for decades. They have tortured before and they continue to do so. NO surprise. The fuckers should be shot: no trial, no mercy and and no excuse.

And while I'm on a roll, the Americans had better stay at home for a change because while they've been tramping all over the globe saving 'democracy' for everybody else they have lost it at home.

For those who intend to post that 'that makes us just as bad as them', the fact is it makes us worse. Then they know they aren't the baddest mfs on the block. Save your effete ideals for the butchered and murdered. I'm sure they'll have time to listen to you. I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:21 AM

999, I started this thread about the worst mass murder of civilians for decades.
I am aggrieved that Jim deliberately derailed it into just another Brit-bashing thread, and that he did it to suit his own political agenda.
I also think it right to expose the lies he used for the purpose.
He stated that Britain supplied arms.
Britain did not.
The guilt in this case is simple and clear cut.
Russia, China, Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:22 AM

From BBC site.

"A major world conference is being held in Tunisia to seek a breakthrough in the increasingly bitter Syrian unrest.

The US, Europe and Arab countries plan to challenge President Bashar al-Assad to provide humanitarian access within days to the worst-affected areas. But Russia and China are not attending. "

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 03:39 AM

More from BBC,
"The UN report documents the last three months in Syria, during which, the investigators say, the violence has reached new and terrible levels.

They have evidence that Syrian forces have shot dead women and children, subjected civilian areas to merciless shelling, and tortured wounded protestors in hospital.

These systematic violations were ordered by high ranking figures in the military and government, the report says."

"UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said the international community would be looking at further ways to apply pressure to Mr Assad.

"It is a deeply frustrating situation that people have been dying in their thousands... that the Assad regime has continued to act seemingly with impunity - but I think we can agree to a wider set of measures across a large group of nations," Mr Hague said.

The European Union sanctions on Syria could be tightened further, Mr Hague added."

"Russia and China have faced Western and Arab criticism for blocking a UN Security Council resolution that would have backed an Arab League peace plan for Syria.

Opposition groups claim more than 7,500 people have been killed since the start of the uprising 11 months ago."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:10 AM

"Britain is utterly innocent of this crime."
A list of equipment which Britain has sold, and continues to sell to states with (at the very least) a poor record on human rights - innocent my arse.
"Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures.
The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents. At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners.
Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia."
"If you have evidence that it was sniper rounds..."
You and your gun-nut friend described them as "sniper rounds" - I took it from past discussions that you had some military experience; your friend is a shooter and has said so in the past.
If they were not as you described - what were they - ornaments for Assads mantlepiece?
The sum spent £300,000 - is a great deal to shell out (pardon the pun) for something that is of no use to the Syrian regime.
The case is a simple one A GOVERNMENT WITH SYRIAN TRACK RECORD - DETAINMENT WITHOUT TRIAL - PERSECUTION - TORTURE - MURDER - LASTING FOR DECADES AND REPORTED IN DETAIL BY AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SOLD WEAPONS AND MILITARY EQUIPMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU HAVE COMPOUNDED YOUR DEFENCE OF THIS SALE WITH THE SUGGESTION THAT THEY SHOULD ONLY BE SOLD RIOT CONTROL EQUIPMENT AND DEFENDING THIS WITH THE BIZARRE EITHER/OR IDEA THAT IF THEY WEREN'T SOLD THIS THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE SOLD SOMETHING MORE LETHAL - THEY SHOULD NOT BE SOLD ANYTHING AT ALL, AND ANBODY WHO SELLS THEM ANYTHING BECOMES AN ACCOMPLICE to THEIR CRIMES - THIS IS PRETTY WELL THE MOST OBSCENE SUGGESTION YOU HAVE MADE, AND WITH YOUR TRACK RECORD....
"I foolishly took your delusions seriously is all."
Stop being pathetic - my "delusions" are documented, you have seen the proof, you accepted it until you saw that it knocked the bottom of your case, then you did a quick about turn.
"Because they are old Marxists or old Marxists' mates, right"
As with your claims that I supported Hamas... et al - if you have one scrap of evidence that I ever supported The Soviet Union or have ever said I am a Marxist - please present it - if not, it will remain what it has been - an attempt to defend your own extremist views by deliberately distorting the views of others
So what have we got now - a racist, a flag waving nationalist - an apologist for selling arms to dictators - and a supporter of a murderous regime by suggesting that they be sold riot control equipment in order to quash opposition to their rule - not a bad CV Keith. "No proof that the ammunition was actually delivered"
No proof that it wasn't, but it was contracted and it was issued with a licence - to a regime with.... I suggest you read the Amnesty International report on human rights abuses in Syria - and some of the other regimes Britain has sold, and continues to sell weapons to.
The Mail, The Telegraph, The Independant and The Guardian have all reported the sale as a done deal, presumably sourced from Reuters, it is included in the official arms sales chart.
There is no earthly reason to believe it didn't take place (I don't count Keith among "earthly")
"I see that you and Jim disagree. OK. So what?"
I feel it important that we know who has been responsible for supporting this carnage for a number of reasons.
As Brits, we are entitled to know what our Government is doing on our behalf.
Our position to criticise others is severely weakened if we have taken part in supplying this regime weapons - no matter what size shape or form.
And most importantly The fact that our government is still actively pimping weapons to states which are not unsimilar to Syria and Libya, makes it possible that what is happening in Homs could well be repeated in Al Manamah, San'a, Riyad.... or wherever Britain has sold or is trying to sell weapons. Surely that is simple logic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:19 AM

So, Britain supplied no weapons to Syria.
And, you have no evidence of sniper rounds supplied.
Britain is blameless in the humanitarian catastrophe of Syria.

Why did yo need a whole screenful of text to say that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:45 AM

"Why did yo need a whole screenful of text to say that Jim?"
Because I said much more than that Keith - I suggest you read it and answer the points
I would like to request that you either produce evidence of my supporting Russia in any shape or form or that they were ever "old Marxists or old Marxists' mates" or withdraw it - NOW
Had that been the case, surely it would be obvious, even to a bear of even your small intelligence that I would hardly defend a government that had betrayed "my Marxism"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 04:52 AM

Jim, I merely contrasted the pages and pages of bile against blameless Britain you have posted here, with your brief (2 lines?) condemnation of all those actually culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:35 AM

No answer
I would like to request that you either produce evidence of my supporting Russia in any shape or form or that they were ever "old Marxists or old Marxists' mates" or withdraw it - NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 05:52 AM

You support them by hardly ever criticising their involvement, while endlessly attacking Britain which has no guilt for the atrocities in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 06:23 AM

Still no evidence whatever of your stupid and lying accusation which, even if it were vaguely true, does not make sense.
I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST THAT YOU EITHER PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF MY SUPPORTING RUSSIA IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM OR THAT THEY WERE EVER "OLD MARXISTS OR OLD MARXISTS' MATES" OR WITHDRAW IT - NOW
Your constant repetitition of your "blameless Britain" does not begin to justify the fact that they sold bullets to a killer, but it does underline your stupidity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 06:43 AM

You support them by hardly ever criticising their involvement in this evil, while endlessly attacking Britain which has no guilt for the atrocities in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:07 AM

Jim,

You have previously, in many threads, attacked those of us who criticized the Palestinians BECAUSE WE DID NOT CRITICIZE ISRAEL for what YOU thought were their crimes.

Now we apply the SAME standard YOU applied to us TO YOU- AND YOU OBJECT.

What kind of scum is it that applies different rules to himself than he demands of others???

YOUR failure to criticize Iran, China , and Russia is sufficient proof FROM YOUR STANDARDS to convict you of supporting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:12 AM

You obviously have no proof of your statement, nor do you intend to withdraw it, let alone apologise for making such a stupidly illogical claim (I believe it was you who recently broke into a thread you were not part of to claim that I never apologised or withdrew statements I had mistakenly made).
You are a blatently liar and the stupidity of this particular lie (the idea that a "Marxist" would condone the actions of capitalist Russia) makes your lying self-evidently crude and self serving.
You obviously have no evidence and your accusation was to cover the support you are giving to despotic killers by covering up the fact that Britain has armed and continues to supply weapons to regimes who, in the words of Vince Cable, the Business Secretary in the coalition cabinet of David Cameron - what better authority ".....are not democratic and have bad human rights records".
Keep digging Keith - obviously this particular pit has no bottom.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:29 AM

You obviously have no proof of your statement

Your refusal to criticise those who support and supply the mass murderers,while endlessly, endlessly attacking and smearing a country with no involvement at all, is proof of your prejudice in favour of an ex-communist regime still run by a hard-line KGB man.

The Liberal Left and Centre Right tended not to flourish in the KGB.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM

"Your refusal to criticise those who support and supply the mass murderers,"
One more lie to add to the pile - I have repeadedly pointed out that I believe them all RUSSIA, CHINA, BRITAIN - whoever supplies arms to killers, to be mercenary death-dealers - refuse to make a distinction between mortars and sniper ammunition - you excuse one to defend Britain from having sold them
"The Liberal Left and Centre Right tended not to flourish in the KGB. "
meaning what - that I supported the KGB - you lying little shit?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 08:09 AM

More BBC.

On 10 January, a Russian cargo ship loaded with containers from the country's main arms exporter made an unscheduled stop at the port of Limassol in Cyprus, apparently forced from the sea by bad weather.

Port officials who boarded the ship discovered what was described as "dangerous cargo".

A well-placed source has confirmed to the BBC that it was carrying tons of ammunition destined for the Syrian security forces which stand accused of committing atrocities against their own people, killing and torturing thousands since the uprising began last year.

The ship was held for several hours at Limassol before being allowed to sail on, eventually reaching the Syrian port of Tartus a few days later.

This was just the latest consignment of arms and ammunition sent by Russia in support of the Assad government, a close ally with whom Moscow has maintained good relations for decades.

According to some estimates, 10% of Russia's global arms sales go to Syria, with current contracts estimated to be worth $1.5bn (£950m).

Besides ammunition, recent sales have included military training aircraft, air defence systems and anti-tank weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 08:18 AM

Irish Times.


THE UNITED Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said yesterday she was appalled by the violence against civilians in Homs and called for urgent international action.

Navi Pillay also implicitly criticised Russia and China for vetoing an Arab and western move in the UN Security Council to get Syria's President Bashar al-Assad to quit.

"I am appalled by the Syrian government's wilful assault on the city of Homs, and its use of artillery and other heavy weaponry in what appear to be indiscriminate attacks on civilian areas in the city," Ms Pillay said in a statement. Ms Pillay, a former South African high court judge, said it was extremely urgent "for the international community to cut through the politics and take effective action to protect the civilian population".

She said the "virtual carte blanche" granted to Syria by the veto of the UN resolution "betrays the spirit and the word" of a 2005 global accord on collective action to protect civilians when their government was failing to do so.

Her statement came as both Russia and China continued to defend their stance. In Moscow, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said it was "not really the international community's business" to try, as he put it, to determine the outcome of a national dialogue between government and opposition in Syria.



China, meanwhile, hit back at its critics, notably British foreign secretary William Hague. It said his criticism of Beijing's veto was extremely irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 09:01 AM

You see Jim, the BBC, The Irish Times, and every other news organ and agency, and everyone else here can discuss Syria and the complicity of Russia and China without pages and pages about Britain which is utterly innocent of the crimes in Syria, and is actually one of the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 12:54 PM

"Sniper bullets according to you and the other braindead." -Jim Carroll

Well no Christmas not exactly.

I listed NATO & Warsaw Pact ammunition and asked what weapons the Syrian Army might have that would use NATO ammunition

Neither of the types of pistol used by the Syrian Army can fire Standard NATO 9 x 19mm Parabellum so the only Standard NATO ammunition that would be of any use to them would be standard rifle (7.62 x 51mm) ammunition that could be used in the Austrian Steyr SSG69 rifle (Standard Bolt Action with a 5 round magazine) one of four types of rifle used by the Syrian Army and identified by Guest999.

The Steyr SSG69 was made as snipers weapon that used standard 7.62 x 51mm ammunition all the three other types of rifle (one - Russian Dragunov SVD semi-automatic 10 round magazine; one - Romanian PSL which is basically a copy of the Russian Dragunov semi-automatic 10 round magazine; one - Serbian Zastava M91 which surprise, surprise is basically a copy of the Russian Dragunov semi-automatic with a 10 round magazine) do use special "sniper bullets" they are 7.62 x 54R rounds, the standard Russian/Soviet/Warsaw round being 7.62 x 39mm

So the 7.62 x 51mm round is NOT a "sniper bullet" it is standard ammunition

The 7.62 x 54R is the oldest bullet still used by armed forces in the world (120 years old) since the advent of the AK-47 which replaced the Mosin-Nagant bolt action rifle the 7.62 x 54R was loaded (i.e. powder charged) for use as machine gun ammunition in four forms. The fifth form is the 7N1 a bullet made specifically for a sniper rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:17 PM

So Jim-Lad,

As far as your original contention that Syrian civilians were being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs, what we have so far is this:

1: Britain has sold no weapons to Syria

2: The licence issued to a private arms dealer in 2009 to sell small arms ammunition (or small arms "arms", as you prefer it) was revoked in good time and there is no evidence that ANY ammunition was ever delivered at all.

3: The vast bulk of those killed in Syria since 6th May 2011 have been killed by shells fired from tanks, artillery, mortar rounds, RPG-7s and small arms predominantly AK-47 Assault Rifles. Most of which are supplied by Russia or China.

As to why the UN is reluctant to act? There can be no UN Security Council Resolution to mandate action as happened in the case of Libya due to Russian and Chinese use of their veto powers.

End result Assad and his regime will collapse, but it will be a long and bloody struggle to finally get what the Syrian people want.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 09:02 PM

Don't buy anything made in China. Boycott Vodka.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 04:12 AM

"Britain has sold no weapons to Syria..... et al"
As this comes with no proof whatever we can only assume it to be the self-serving guesswork of a gun-toting perv who gets it off on hurling obscenities at the dead and/or a feeble minded racist who tells lies.
This shipment of ammunition is shrouded in mystery, with virtually no information on it other than an official acknowledgement of its existance and the fact that it was granted a licence - indicating that Britain is not particularly proud of who it sells arms to (certainly not as proud as the two boyos here who have expended a fair amoung to energy defending the shipment and claiming it to be 'harmless').
Whatever it was, it should never have been sold to a notoriously murderous regime which is possibly now using it to slaughter demonstrators, along with other equipment supplied by Russia and China - as I have said repeatedly, there is nothing to choose between any of them as arms suppliers other than the type of weapons and equipment supplied.
In spite of mammoth efforts on Keith's part to steer clear of the consequences of all this, which will remain long after the slaughter has stopped in Syria - the real question is - who should any arms producing power sell its products to - Britain is third in the world in that arms trade.
Some facts about the Arab Spring:
It began in Tunisia in December 2010.
Egypt joined in in January 2011 (Britain sold £6m worth of arms to Egypt in 2009 and £27m worth in 2010)
Libya became involved in February:
"Ministers approved the export of sniper rifles, bullets, tear gas and other 'crowd control' ammunition to Tripoli shortly before the murderous dictator ordered his military to crush a pro-democracy uprising...
This meant that not only were demonstrators being put down by equipment supplied by Britain, but also Libyan Government forces and rebels were killing each other with weapons from the same source.

"Mr Cameron said he could not understand why anyone would oppose his attempts to boost British defence sales in such a volatile region"
Daily Mail
In February last year David Cameron took part in an arms fair designed to sell weapons to customers such as Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia... and other 'democracies!! (Bahrain was one of the early targets of Arab Spring demonstrators)
As Vince Cable said "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records. We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
BRITAN SELLS ARMS TO REGIMES THAT KILL AND TORTURE THEIR OWN PEOPLE -AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO WHILE APPEASERS OF SUCH BEHAVIOUR LIE AND JUSTIFY TO COVER THE FACTS UP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:48 AM

Your original contention Christmas was that Syrian civilians were being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs.

Simple fact of the matter is that they are not being "slaughtered" by British weapons, they are not even being "slaughtered" by British ammunition.

They are being "slaughtered" by Russian and Chinese weapons and ammunition and it is those two countries who ARE selling Assad's regime the means to butcher his own people, and it is those two countries who are currently blocking any international attempt to stop the slaughter.

Keen on trivia are you Christmas? Well here is a "little" statistic for you - For every 60 people toddling around this earth there is 1 AK-47 Assault rifle - Now tell me who makes them - certainly not the British.

"The AK series of weapons have been produced in greater numbers than any other firearm and have been used in conflicts all over the world."

Thought this bit was absolutely priceless:

"Libyan Government forces and rebels were killing each other with weapons from the same source."

A number of sources actually Jim-Lad and again mostly Russian (AK-47's, RPG-7's seem to be the weapons of choice in almost every trouble spot on the planet)

The next is classic "Jim Carroll Bullshit:

"indicating that Britain is not particularly proud of who it sells arms to (certainly not as proud as the two boyos here who have expended a fair amoung to energy defending the shipment and claiming it to be 'harmless')."

So far in the entire length of this thread I have seen not one single instance of ANYONE:

a) Defending the shipment OR b) claiming that it was harmless

But there again Jim I guess it is just the way you read things and interpret them. I can recall on the subject of the separation of Northern Ireland you claimed to know better what one of the participants at the talks said than that person himself.

Britain third in the sale of arms in the world? I think it is Fifth behind the USA; Russia; Germany & France. China is sixth, but in the top six you have ALL permanent members of the UN Security Council. But that is not the way Christmas presents it:

BRITAN SELLS ARMS TO REGIMES THAT KILL AND TORTURE THEIR OWN PEOPLE -AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO WHILE APPEASERS OF SUCH BEHAVIOUR LIE AND JUSTIFY TO COVER THE FACTS UP

Truth is lots of countries who manufacture arms do that Christmas (1,135 manufacturers in 98 countries around the world as a matter of fact), what appeasers? In this particular instance that you referred to the British Government revoked the export licence. What cover up?

First death in Syria occurred on 6th May 2011 and there has been a mandatory EU arms embargo (2011/273/CFSP) on sales to Syria since 9th May 2011.

So what was your contention again Christmas:

"That Syrian civilians were currently (February 2012) being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs."

Apologies but I must ask the obvious question - Just HOW exactly are they managing to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 08:36 AM

Right - no back-up evidence; that seems to have established that Terrytoon's list was an invention of Dumber and/or Dumbest
"That Syrian civilians were currently (February 2012) being "slaughtered" by British weapons in Homs."
I forgot - sniper bullets are not weapons (just as white phosphoros is not chemical, or Agent Orange is only week-killer - just "weapon facilitators" or "missiles" maybe - I'll try to remember that in future - I'm sure it will give comfort to the mother who saw her baby shot though the head.
"they are not even being "slaughtered" by British ammunition."
You seem to have an unusually disturbing knowledge of Syrian armory - a letter from a friend in high places, maybe - oh, I forgot, you're one of those penis-substitute shooters, aren't you?
"Thought this bit was absolutely priceless:"
Didn't suggest a single source, but there is a possibility (probability at the beggining of the suppression) that the ammunition used could have been British - or, as with Syria, do you know something we don't?
both sides were using British supplied weapons
"the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya".
"Ministers approved the export of sniper rifles, bullets, tear gas and other 'crowd control' ammunition to Tripoli shortly before the murderous dictator ordered his military to crush a pro-democracy uprising."
"BRITAIN is secretly arming Libyan rebels with missiles and rocket ¬launchers to help defeat Colonel Gaddafi, it was claimed last night."
Hilarious!!!!!
"Truth is lots of countries who manufacture arms do that"
Oh, that's all right then - let's sell some more to Denis Mugabe!
"claiming it to be 'harmless').""
Keith's "that would be sniper bullets" was an explanation for Britain having sold small arms ammunition to Syria, and your claiming that the Syrians paid so much for ammunition that could not be used by their military.....
As you say, "classic".
"Fifth behind the USA; Russia; Germany & France."
Depends which particular chart you refer to - ranges between second and fifth over all.
"I can recall on the subject of the separation of Northern Ireland"
Good job Keithie isn't here to whinge about "thread drift
You are now coming over as a 'gun-bore' not unsimilar to a 'wine-bore' or a 'golf bore' - do you go to bed in your camouflage jacket?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:18 AM

Ammunition, Christmas, small arms ammunition.

The "sniper" bullets were your spin not mine, because they are not "sniper" rounds at all just standard rifle ammunition. So if they are in your eyes classified as "sniper" bullets then ALL bullets are "sniper" bullets - fits in nicely with your equally ludicrous "small arms arms" thing.

"White Phosphorus"?? According to the Convention on certain Conventional Weapons and the Chemical Weapons Convention - neither list White Phosphorus as a Chemical Weapon - I will take their word for it (After all just who the fuck is Jim Carroll to tell the world anything)

"Agent Orange" - classified as a defoliant not a Chemical Weapon.

"they are not even being "slaughtered" by British ammunition."

Where is your proof that they are being slaughtered by British ammunition - you have offered nothing apart from newspaper articles referring to the fact that a licence had been granted, not that anything had actually been sold, or delivered.

"there is a possibility (probability at the beggining of the suppression) that the ammunition used could have been British - or, as with Syria, do you know something we don't?
both sides were using British supplied weapons"

What's with the "as with Syria"??? I am only talking about Syria where you claim that the British (as in the British Government) sold weapons to Assad's Regime.

A private individual (NOT the British Government) obtained an export licence (from the British Government) to sell £30,000 worth of small arms ammunition to Syria in 2009. There is no evidence or proof that those rounds were ever delivered.

The standing Army of Syria numbers some 220,000 men and at anytime there are also 300,000 reserves and those doing "national service". I know that your knowledge of military matters may be a bit slight (others might say non-existent) but do you suppose that any of the 220,000 regulars or any of the 300,000 reservists + conscripts who have cycled through the Syrian Army system since 2009 were ever given any weapons training? Do you suppose that that training involved any "live-firing"?

£30,000 would buy you about 111,000 rounds which would over two years work out at a total range allowance of 4,583 rounds per month or 153 per day and you are training and keeping current some 520,000 men. The vast majority would not use the 7.62 NATO stuff because Russia sells them their guns (not Britain)and when all said and done the vast majority of them will not be trained as snipers. Having said that this is what is said about training as a military sniper:

"Military sniper training aims to teach a high degree of proficiency in camouflage and concealment, stalking, observation and map reading as well as precision marksmanship under various operational conditions. Trainees typically shoot thousands of rounds over a number of weeks, while learning these core skills."

So I would say that it would be highly unlikely (improbable) that any of the £30,000 worth of ammunition bought (if indeed it ever was) two years ago would still be available.

Another question for you Christmas, it is a simple matter of commonsense and logic:
The situation is that you are going to go into action as a sniper in the Syrian Army you basically have a choice of two weapons:

Rifle No.1:
Dragunov semi-automatic (self-loading) 10 shot magazine, that fires ammunition that at a pinch you could re-supply from any tank, armoured personnel carrier or machine gunner in the Syrian Army. If your own rifle gets damaged you can pick up any one of two other types which are almost identical and carry on.

Rifle No.2:
Steyr SSG69 bolt-action (i.e. you have to manually load after each shot) 5 shot magazine, that fires what can only be considered rather unique ammunition for the Syrian Army. Your supply of ammunition is limited to what you can personally carry. If your rifle gets damaged - you are stuffed.

Come on Christmas tell us what your weapon of choice would be.

What has what Britain has sold to Bahrain and Libya got to do with Syrians being "slaughtered" in Homs? Nothing, unless of course you are saying that the Libyans and the Government of Bahrain are arming Assad? Which we know they are not.

Who is "Denis Mugabe"?? and why should we sell anything, harmless or otherwise, to him??

"and your claiming that the Syrians paid so much for ammunition that could not be used by their military....."

Well no Christmas Pudding I didn't claim that, I asked the question "What use NATO ammunition would be to the Syrians" and either pdq or Guest999 answered it stating that the Syrians had bought Steyr SSG69 rifles. All quite logical really if you don't know something ask a question - But please note Christmas for that system to work you have to listen to the answer using those things on either side of your head that you appear only to use to help keep your spectacles in place and your hat from falling over your eyes.

Britain comes third in the league table relating to defence budgets
Britain comes fifth in the league table relating to arms exports

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:57 AM

To understand, there are snipers and there are snipers. If I was doing it long-distance, I'd want to load my own shells or have them made with EXACTLY the same load (powder and projectile) for every round. For a few hundred yards, commercial stuff is fine. And commercial stuff is all over the place. None of these so-called snipers are doing precision work. What are being referred to as snipers are simply assholes with shit for training and the morals of a cat in heat, auto or semi-automatic weapons and a so-called target-rich environment. They are murderers, ones who would and will fold when they meet aggressive troops, regular or irregular. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 12:01 PM

"The "sniper" bullets were your spin not mine,"
Nope - they were Keith's - you took it up.
"According to the Convention...."
Apologist shit for the use chmiicals on people - who gives a toss wo classifies it as want, the photographs of the victims show horrific burns, paricularly on children - hiding behind semantics allows their continued use on civilians - as in Fallujah.
"Agent Orange" - classified as a defoliant not a Chemical Weapon.
A carcogenic spray that was designed to starve the VietNames into submission, but ended up killing the airmen who dropped if - mealy-mothed semantics again.
"I know that your knowledge of military matters may be a bit slight "
Pompous weekend soldier - boring us with your 'knowledge' again -save it for the pub!
"Who is "Denis Mugabe"??" - Zimbabwean dictator amed by Britain - surely you're not reduced to typos?
All else is a pompous display of suoerficial knowledge avoiding the real point - Britain has armed dictators and continues to do so.
It really doesnt matter how long the ammunition sold to Syria lasted five minutes or five years - selling lethal toys to vicious regimes kills innocent people and that is what you are supporting - never mind; the other braindead will be back soon to give you a hand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 01:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 01:23 PM

Weedkiller
"The TCDD found in Agent Orange is thought to be harmful to man. In laboratory tests on animals, TCDD has caused a wide variety of diseases, many of them fatal. TCDD is not found in nature, but rather is a man-made and always unwanted byproduct of the chemical manufacturing process. The Agent Orange used in Vietnam was later found to be extremely contaminated with TCDD."

White phospherus
From The Guardian
Fresh evidence of the firing of white phosphorus weapons by Israeli forces in Gaza has emerged from witnesses heard by the Guardian and first hand accounts by human rights groups of their use against civilians.
Graphic descriptions of attacks by Israeli forces near the Gaza town of Khan Younis are contained in footage shot by Fida Qishta for the International Solidarity Movement and obtained by the Guardian.
A woman described how on Tuesday Israeli forces "started to fire phosphorus bombs against the people, of course, they are civilians ..."
A man added: "A fire broke out and we have to leave out. Fires broke out on the top of the houses. We all jumped out with our women and daughters put off the fire. They were doing that, to help the special forces to occupy the houses. after we put off the fires, they started to shoot towards us. Then they started to raze the houses".
He said the fires were caused by phosphorus bombs and missiles.
Israeli artillery also fired white phosphorus shells at Gaza City, Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch, said yesterday.
Three white phosphorus shells were fired at the UN Relief and Works Agency in Gaza City on Thursday, according to people there.
Phosphorus shells burst in the air billowing white smoke before dropping the phosphate shell. Each shell contain more than 100 wavers which, when ignited, pump out smoke for about 10 minutes.
Contact with the shell remnants cause severe burns, sometimes burning the skin to the bone, consistent with descriptions by Ahmed Almi, the Egyptian doctor at the Al-Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis after attacks last Tuesday. Almi said after an hour the entire body of one victim was burned.
Chemicals in smoke produced by white phosphorus shells and burning chemical particles can cause severe respiratory problems.
According to the report from the International Solidarity Movement, many patients at the Khan Younis hospital were suffering from serious breathing difficulties after inhaling smoke.
The use of white phosphorous as a weapon – as opposed to its use as an obscurant and infrared blocking smoke screen – is banned by the Third Convention on Conventional Weapons which covers the use of incendiary devices. Though Israel is not a signatory to the convention, its military manuals reflect the restrictions on its use in that convention.
Instead of producing high velocity burning fragments like conventional white phosphorus weapons used to in the past, M825A1 rounds of the kind identified as being fired by Israeli forces produce what he called a "series of large slower burning wedges which fall from the sky", said Neil Gibson, technical adviser to Jane's Missiles and Rockets.
Israel's use of heavy artillery in residential areas of Gaza City violates the prohibition under the laws of war against indiscriminate attacks and should be stopped immediately, Human Rights Watch said yesterday.
"Firing 155mm shells into the center of Gaza City, whatever the target, will likely cause horrific civilian casualties," Garlasco said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 01:35 PM

ROBERT Mugabe - You pillock

"It really doesnt matter how long the ammunition sold to Syria lasted"

F''kin well does if you are trying to tell us that a small amount of ammunition that might have been "bought" two years ago is currently being used to kill people today when it was sold to a country whose army is 220,000 strong.

So hidden in amongst all that froth:

NO WEAPONS SOLD TO SYRIA BY BRITAIN

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT BULLETS REPORTEDLY SOLD SUBJECT TO A BRITISH EXPORT LICENCE WERE EVER DELIVERED

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THAT AMMUNITION IS CURRENTLY BEING USED TO KILL ANYONE IN HOMS

"Apologist shit" - "Mealy-mouthed semantics"? Not at all Christmas that is how those responsible for defining and classifying weapons have called it on behalf of a whole rake of international organisations and courts - I accept their classification and their rulings, were they to change them tomorrow I would accept those immediately.

Typos? Oh you mean shit like:

chmiicals
wo
paricularly
carcogenic
VietNames
dropped if
amed by Britain
suoerficial

8 errors in 14 lines - You really must do better Christmas

I have supported the British Arms Industry where and when?
I have supported the activities of dictators attacking and killing their own people where and when?

I will tell what I have done on this thread - ripped apart the contention made purely from personal bias and bigotry that British weapons sold by the British Government to Syria were killing civilians in Homs.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 02:04 PM

"I will tell what I have done on this thread.."
No you haven't - you've given us a display of what we used to call "the Territorial Tommies on parade" with a few phrases picked up from shooter magazines.
Now you appear to have fallen back on a few minor errors and typos
And your chemical weapons and "weedkiller"......??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:02 PM

Dioxin, produced by Monsanto, has also been used by Canada's DND, Ontario Hydro (I saw a few miles of orange trees along power lines) and I've read the stories of women who bore children with deformities after being exposed to it in British Columbia.

It is a herbicide that has detrimental effects on humans and other living things. While it is difficult to perceive it as a chemical weapon, it is still nasty stuff. For chemical weapons to be effective in battlefield conditions, they have to act fairly quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:28 PM

"While it is difficult to perceive it as a chemical weapon,"
Would agree to a point, but not when you're dealing with a "kill by the manual" toerag merchant, as I believe we are here.
Jim Carroll

Agent Orange
Vietnam has reported that 4.8 million Vietnamese were exposed to Agent Orange, and that an estimated 400,000 people were killed and another 500,000 children have been born with birth defects attributed to either their exposure or their parent's or grandparent's exposure to Agent Orange.
The Vietnamese were not the only people affected by this herbicide during the Vietnam Conflict: American soldiers were exposed to Agent Orange during their service; Canadian soldiers were exposed to Agent Orange when it was tested during the late 60s at the Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick.

Effects on Vietnam
The Vietnamese who were exposed to Agent Orange have reported:
-- skin diseases
-- cancer
-- blindness
-- paralysis
-- muscular disorders
-- skeletal disorders
-- significant weakness

Those exposed to Agent Orange have had children with birth defects such as:
-- extra fingers and toes
-- cleft palates
-- hernias
-- mental disabilities

Effects on Veterans
The United States Department of Veteran Affairs have identified the following diseases as being associated with exposure to Agent Orange:
-- Acute and Subacute Transient Peripheral Neuropathy
-- AL Amyloidosis
-- Chloracne
-- Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia
-- Diabetes Mellitus (Type 2)
-- Hodgkin's Disease
-- Multiple Myeloma
-- Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma
-- Porphyria Cutanea Tarda
-- Prostate Cancer
-- Respiratory Cancers
-- Soft Tissue Sarcoma (other than Osteosarcoma, Chondrosarcoma, Kaposi's sarcoma, or Mesothelioma)
Birth defects have also been identified among the veteran's children. Spina bifida seems to be the most common defect; however, according to the Department of Veteran Affairs, veterans have had children with other birth defects which have been attributed to Agent Orange exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 03:02 AM

"a "kill by the manual" toerag merchant"

No Christmas, just someone calling you on some the ludicrously inaccurate statements you have been making.

Agent Orange a chemical weapon? No more so than DDT and the man who invented that was given the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1948. I agree with Guest999's post nasty stuff the use of which has long since been discontinued. DDT on the other hand which is just as nasty is still used widely as it protects human life from the greatest killer on the planet - Malaria.

"you've given us a display of what we used to call "the Territorial Tommies on parade" with a few phrases picked up from shooter magazines."

Really?? Not when it comes to the Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69 Christmas I own one, I have had it for years and apart from its weight it is a superb hunting rifle, that has always kept my freezer full.

No typos this time Christmas - but considering that 99.9% of your last post was edited cut-n-paste you still rank a D minus - you really should submit more original work and try harder.

Getting back to the subject in hand (i.e. more inaccurate, incorrect and totally unsubstantiated ravings of yours):

NO WEAPONS SOLD TO SYRIA BY BRITAIN

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT BULLETS REPORTEDLY SOLD SUBJECT TO A BRITISH EXPORT LICENCE IN 2009 WERE EVER IN FACT DELIVERED

NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THAT AMMUNITION IS CURRENTLY BEING USED TO KILL ANYONE IN HOMS.

PS: Give my regards to Denis Mugabe next time you see him Christmas

Attention to detail Christmas - Attention to detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:09 AM

"No more so than DDT"
You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does - used on Third World peasants - men, women and children - and backfired on the deliverers, and you continue to downgrade its effects to justify its use on human beings, just as you do with sniper bullets.
"Not when it comes to the Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69 Christmas I own one,"
Oh dear - boys with toys - you actually own a penis substitute - and you got it for Christmas, you say - you couldn't make you up - you're a caricature!
"No typos this time....."
Small -minded as well as a foul-mouthed necrophobe thug - and you say they allow you to carry a gun.... oh dear!
"NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT BULLETS....."
No proof needed - the fact that ammunition could be sold by a British firm (it's on record) and given a licence by Britain (that's on record too), to be sent to a country with the human rights record such as Syria's says all that is needed to be said.
"Give my regards to Denis Mugabe next time you see him Christmas"
Still trying to fill the gaps in your argument with trivia - give him your own regards http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dennis-mugabe/27/8/730
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:36 AM

....and the licence was revoked.
Jim, please respect the fact that this thread is about the ongoing tragedy in Syria.
The arms trade, Britain's record, Israel, Iraq, Zimbabwe, classification of munitions, etc. are all worthy of discussion, but not here please.

Your hatred of Britain is in danger of becoming a deranged obsession.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 04:50 AM

"Your hatred of Britain is in danger of becoming a deranged obsession. "
And your supra-nationalism is likely to get you identified as a fascist.
I used Agent Orange as an example of where Benny the Bullet had attempted to neutralise weapons - as you both have done here in order to let Britain off the hook for licencing weapons to a despotic country - I used the example of selling to Mugabe's Zimbawe as an example of where Britain had sold to dictators before.
I was not intending pursuing it- braindead made an issue of my mix-up in the Mugabe family - finis.
As you have consistently attempted to divert this thread to Palesting - please don't tell me that I can't discuss British arms sales to murderous thug - perfectly in line with the topic in hand
Mind your own business (again) you may have started this thread but you don't own it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:13 AM

More time now:
Your description of criticism of Britain as being " a deranged obsession" is spooky in the extreme, on par with "my country right or wrong" and "Deutschland uber alles" - in fact "a deranged obsession" in itself.
You, quite laudably, opened a thread on the attacks on the Syrian people using weapons supplied by Russia and China - nothing wrong with that.
Despite the FACT that Britain has issued a licence for the sale of military equipment (small missiles - as you don't like "weapons") to Syria - you have consistently cried "foul" and attempted to defend that sale and block any discussion on it.
At the same time as Gadaffi opened fire on the Libyan people and was opposing demonstrations with weapons supplied by Britain, among others - within weeks of the start of the Arab Spring demonstrations - David Cameron was hosting an arms fair aimed at selling weapons to countries in the same part of the world, ruled by Assad-like leaders. This makes Britain one of the armorours in this ongoing conflict and well within the bounds of this discussion.
Attempts to block discussion on Britain's role in this conflict is, to say the least, bizarrely nationalist to the extent of mindless jingoism.
As far as I am concerned it is not just the right but the responsibity of all Britons to put a check on a government that sells weapons to killers and potential killers. Failing to do so, or supporting their murderously mercenary behaviour makes those that do accomplices - the last time this happened on a grand scale there were 6,000,000 consequences.
Don't you dare attempt to tell us what we can and can't discuss on a thread about supplying weapons to a dictator.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 06:53 AM

"You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does - used on Third World peasants - men, women and children - and backfired on the deliverers, and you continue to downgrade its effects to justify its use on human beings, just as you do with sniper bullets."

Corrections to the above:

"You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does"

Well no Christmas, I haven't. What you gave us was a list of what Agent Orange does - Attention to detail remember.

"and you continue to downgrade its effects to justify its use on human beings, just as you do with sniper bullets."

Really?? Well if I have done that then you will have no trouble whatsoever in providing us all with an example of me downgrading the effects of either Agent Orange or bullets fired by a sniper. Although I must confess I will not be holding my breath, there are none to be found and you just cannot be arsed to back-up and substantiate the wildly inaccurate accusations you throw around.

Oh by the way is it Denis or Dennis-Mugabe? You seem a little uncertain - Is that your lack of grasp of fact or detail showing itself again? Irrespective of whatever that man's name happens to be - the dictator you were obviously but inaccurately attempting to refer to was Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe.

See who supplies Dictator Mugabe with Weapons

See some familiar names there Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:07 AM

"You've just had a list of exactly what your "DDT" does"
Oh dear Two-Gun - a missed exclamation mark what a saddo!
"What you gave us was a list of what Agent Orange does"
Which you equated with DDT "No more so than DDT"
"with an example of me downgrading the effects of either Agent Orange"
By equatiing it with DDT you downgrade it - unless you can show that DDT has the effects as described above.
Earlier you attempted to downgrade Agent Orange as used in Viet Nam as 'weedkiller' as a defence for its use.
"Oh by the way is it Denis or Dennis-Mugabe"
Fuck off you small minded weasle.
"See some familiar names there Christmas? "
Meaning what exactly - if you are trying to present me as a supporter of any of those countries mentioned, please specify and present evidence of my having done so

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:36 AM

the FACT that Britain has issued a licence for the sale of military equipment (small missiles - as you don't like "weapons") to Syria
No, a small amount of small arms ammunition, which then revoked, and not British made, and unlikely to have ever been supplied.

Where is the pro-rata criticism for Russia and China Jim?
Not so obsessive about them are you.

As you have consistently attempted to divert this thread to Palesting
No Jim, that was you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:11 AM

You're kinda losing it here Christmas my little plum-puddin

Agent Orange - defoliant
DDT - insecticide
Both nasty
At no time at all have I ever advocated, supported or justified the use of either against humans
But the fact is neither are regarded as being "Chemical Weapons", and that was your statement wasn't it? That Agent Orange was a Chemical Weapon (Over forty years since it was last used).

Denis Mugabe, Dennis-Mugabe, if you are talking about the current President of Zimbabwe then at least have the courtesy of getting his name right or refer to him by his real title "Murdering Marxist Twat".

"if you are trying to present me as a supporter of any of those countries mentioned, please specify and present evidence of my having done so"

You seem to have no problem misrepresenting others Christmas, so why the objections when you THINK that someone has done the same to you - I haven't as a matter of fact. But it will be a cold day in hell before you pay any attention to facts.

No, I supplied the link to show who it is that supplies weapons to the murdering dictators you keeping ranting on about with such righteous indignation, and guess what? The vast bulk of their arsenals seem to come from the same sources Russia and China. Do you hammer on about them? No you do not.

My point of contention with you on this thread was that you made the statement that weapons supplied to Assad's regime in Syria by the British Government were killing Syrian civilians in Homs. Having investigated that claim we now know that it is patently untrue and totally groundless. You appear to have a penchant for believing myths and lies even when they have been proven to be myths and lies - Now that is what I would call sad Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:24 AM

"By equatiing it with DDT you downgrade it - unless you can show that DDT has the effects as described above."

Its all here Christmas all you had to do was Google "DDT" - and remember the use of this stuff was much more wider spread in time and area than Agent Orange ever was and that whereas Agent Orange has not been used for 40 years this stuff is still used widely today.

Effects on human health

Potential mechanisms of action on humans are genotoxicity and endocrine disruption. DDT may be directly genotoxic, but may also induce enzymes to produce other genotoxic intermediates and DNA adducts. It is an endocrine disruptor; The DDT metabolite DDE acts as an antiandrogen (but not as an estrogen). p,p'-DDT, DDT's main component, has little or no androgenic or estrogenic activity. Minor component o,p'-DDT has weak estrogenic activity.

Acute toxicity
DDT is classified as "moderately toxic" by the United States National Toxicology Program (NTP) and "moderately hazardous" by the World Health Organization (WHO), based on the rat oral LD50 of 113 mg/kg. DDT has on rare occasions been administered orally as a treatment for barbiturate poisoning.

Chronic toxicity

Diabetes
DDT and DDE have been linked to diabetes. A number of studies from the US, Canada, and Sweden have found that the prevalence of the disease in a population increases with serum DDT or DDE levels.

Developmental toxicity
DDT and DDE, like other organochlorines, have been shown to have xenoestrogenic activity, meaning they are chemically similar enough to estrogens to trigger hormonal responses in animals. This endocrine disrupting activity has been observed in mice and rat toxicological studies, and available epidemiological evidence indicates that these effects may be occurring in humans as a result of DDT exposure. The US Environmental Protection Agency states that DDT exposure damages the reproductive system and reduces reproductive success. These effects may cause developmental and reproductive toxicity:

- A review article in The Lancet states, "research has shown that exposure to DDT at amounts that would be needed in malaria control might cause preterm birth and early weaning ... toxicological evidence shows endocrine-disrupting properties; human data also indicate possible disruption in semen quality, menstruation, gestational length, and duration of lactation."

- Human epidemiological studies suggest that exposure is a risk factor for premature birth and low birth weight, and may harm a mother's ability to breast feed. Some 21st century researchers argue that these effects may increase infant deaths, offsetting any anti-malarial benefits. A 2008 study, however, failed to confirm the association between exposure and difficulty breastfeeding.

- Several recent studies demonstrate a link between in utero exposure to DDT or DDE and developmental neurotoxicity in humans. For example, a 2006 University of California, Berkeley study suggests that children exposed while in the womb have a greater chance of development problems, and other studies have found that even low levels of DDT or DDE in umbilical cord serum at birth are associated with decreased attention at infancy and decreased cognitive skills at 4 years of age. Similarly, Mexican researchers have linked first trimester DDE exposure to retarded psychomotor development.

- Other studies document decreases in semen quality among men with high exposures (generally from IRS).

- Studies generally find that high blood DDT or DDE levels do not increase time to pregnancy (TTP.) There is some evidence that the daughters of highly exposed women may have more difficulty getting pregnant (i.e. increased TTP).

- DDT is associated with early pregnancy loss, a type of miscarriage. A prospective cohort study of Chinese textile workers found "a positive, monotonic, exposure-response association between preconception serum total DDT and the risk of subsequent early pregnancy losses." The median serum DDE level of study group was lower than that typically observed in women living in homes sprayed with DDT.

- A Japanese study of congenital hypothyroidism concluded that in utero DDT exposure may affect thyroid hormone levels and "play an important role in the incidence and/or causation of cretinism."[69] Other studies have also found the DDT or DDE interfere with proper thyroid function.

Other
Occupational exposure in agriculture and malaria control has been linked to neurological problems (i.e. Parkinsons) and asthma.

Carcinogenicity
DDT is suspected to cause cancer. The NTP classifies it as "reasonably anticipated to be a carcinogen," the International Agency for Research on Cancer classifies it as a "possible" human carcinogen, and the EPA classifies DDT, DDE, and DDD as class B2 "probable" carcinogens. These evaluations are based mainly on the results of animal studies.
There is evidence from epidemiological studies (i.e. studies in human populations) that indicates that DDT causes cancers of the liver, pancreas and breast. There is mixed evidence that it contributes to leukemia, lymphoma and testicular cancer. Other epidemiological studies suggest that DDT/DDE does not cause multiple myeloma, or cancers of the prostate, endometrium, rectum, lung, bladder, or stomach.

Breast cancer
The question of whether DDT or DDE are risk factors of breast cancer has been repeatedly studied. While individual studies conflict, the most recent reviews of all the evidence conclude that pre-puberty exposure increases the risk of subsequent breast cancer. Until recently, almost all studies measured DDT or DDE blood levels at the time of breast cancer diagnosis or after. This study design has been criticized, since the levels at diagnosis do not necessarily correspond to levels when the cancer started. Taken as a whole such studies "do not support the hypothesis that exposure to DDT is an important risk factor for breast cancer." The studies of this design have been extensively reviewed.

In contrast, a study published in 2007 strongly associated early exposure (the p,p'- isomer) and breast cancer later in life. Unlike previous studies, this prospective cohort study collected blood samples from young mothers in the 1960s while DDT was still in use, and their breast cancer status was then monitored over the years. In addition to suggesting that the p,p'- isomer is the more significant risk factor, the study also suggests that the timing of exposure is critical. For the subset of women born more than 14 years before agricultural use, there was no association between DDT and breast cancer. However, for younger women—exposed earlier in life—the third who were exposed most to p,p'-DDT had a fivefold increase in breast cancer incidence over the least exposed third, after correcting for the protective effect of o,p'-DDT. These results are supported by animal studies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM

And the latest obscenity from these two while I've been away?.
"Agent Orange" - classified as a defoliant not a Chemical Weapon."
You have a list of the effects of Agent Orange - if you don't agree with it - argue with the American servicemen who ruturnd home with those effecrts
Chewing gum on the pavement is "nasty stuff" – Agent Orange is a chemical weapon
"Agent Orange, used for chemical warfare in the Vietnam War, is estimated to have killed 400,000, deformed 500,000 and sickened another 2 million"
"Between 2.1 to 4.8 million Vietnamese were directly exposed to Agent Orange
400,000 Vietnamese were killed and another 500,000 children have been born with birth defects
50,000 US servicemen have received compensation – though many claimants still have not.
Describing Agent Orange as just a "defoliant" is an insult to all who were affected –
It is recognised as a Chemical weapon
"Monsanto, Agent Orange Creator, Returns To Vietnam | Common ...
Multinational agricultural biotech corporation Monsanto, known as the creator of chemical weapon Agent Orange, is attempting to infiltrate Vietnam once again -- this time ...
www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/02/​07-5 - Cached"
You really are a pair of vermin
See y'all later
Jim Carroll

"Spectre orange
Nearly 30 years after the Vietnam war, a chemical weapon used by US troops is still exacting a hideous toll on each new generation.....
.......It would take the intervention of the former commander of the US Navy in Vietnam, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, for the government finally to admit that it had been aware of the potential dangers of the chemicals used in Vietnam from the start of Ranch Hand. The admiral's involvement stemmed from a deathbed pledge to his son, a patrol boat captain who contracted two forms of cancer that he believed had been caused by his exposure to Agent Orange. Every day during the war, Captain Elmo Zumwalt Jr had swum in a river from which he had also eaten fish, in an area that was regularly sprayed with the herbicide. Two years after his son's death in 1988, Zumwalt used his leverage within the military establishment to compile a classified report, which he presented to the secretary of the department of veterans' affairs and WHICH CONTAINED DATA LINKING AGENT ORANGE TO 28 LIFE-THREATENING CONDITIONS, INCLUDING BONE CANCER, SKIN CANCER, BRAIN CANCER - IN FACT, ALMOST EVERY CANCER KNOWN TO MAN - IN ADDITION TO CHRONIC SKIN DISORDERS, BIRTH DEFECTS, GASTROINTESTINAL DISEASES AND NEUROLOGICAL DEFECTS."
Guardian article March 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/29/usa.adrianlevy

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:21 AM

Any views on the Tunisia talks and resolutions?
The referendum on a new constitution, and the 60 more deaths on that day and 125 yesterday?
What about the increase in the random shelling of civilian areas?
What about a comment on who is supplying all those munitions raining down on the terrified people?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 04:25 AM

"What about a comment on who is supplying all those munitions raining down on the terrified people? "
All exporters of weapons and equipment to regimes such as that of Syria and Libya should be condemned outright as supporters of human rights abusers and should be subject to international law for supporting the abuses - in this case, to a horrific extreme.
To concentrate on a carefully selected few weapons suppliers, pretend that your own country has not been involved, and to describe exposing the fact that it has, (and continues to broker arms deals with similar regimes) when confronted with the evidence, as "anti-British" is, at the very least squalid hypocracy, and is, in fact supporting those regimes by covering up from where they have acquired their arms.
The "anti-British" defence is straight out of the BNP handbook.
We can, and do condemn from afar any state involved in supplying arms to murderers, but we can only bear direct responsibility for our own rulers - they have acted in our name in supplying BRITISH arms and equipment, and their having done so undermines our position to criticise others.
To supply, selectively condemn, then breast-beat over the consequences is no more than 'crocodile tears - (we've been here before).
I'm a bit at a loss as to how to describe the suggestion that the supplying of anti-riot equipment by our government is acceptable
http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3933
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:07 AM

OK, but pro-rata, every word of criticism of Britain's contribution should be matched by several million against Russia.

Why is your criticism in the reverse proportion?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:31 AM

"Why is your criticism in the reverse proportion? "
Since when did you have to count the dead before you condemn the killers?
You have chosen to defend Britain's policy of selling arms to despotice states.
My criticism is in no way in the reverse proportion - I condemn all equally who have supported despotic nations with arms and equipment supplies You, on the other hand, have been selective in your criticism.
Of course China's and Russia's support for Syria is monsterous, but it is no more so than Britain's continuing arms trade, at the beginning of the Arab Spring, with countries who are potentially as murderous as Syria
WOULD YOU CARE TO COMMENT ON CAMERON'S HOSTING AN ARMS FAIR AT THE SAME TIME AS GADAFFI WAS SLAUGHTERING LIBYANS - I'VE GIVEN UP TRYING TO ELICIT A RESPONSE FROM YOU ON BRITAIN'S SELLING WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT TO LIBYA WHICH WERE USED AGAINST THE REBELS
Until you condemn all suppliers of weapons to despotic states your pretended concern is transparent, agenda-serving bullshit.

The only reason Britain's name appears on this thread as often as it does is that you have persistantly lied and distorted the reality of our involvement in the arms trade in order to cover up the fact that we have sold and continue to sell arms to killers and potential killers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 07:38 AM

"Of course China's and Russia's support for Syria is monsterous, but it is no more so than Britain's continuing arms trade,"


THE SAME logic would lead me to state:

Of course Syria's shelling of it's own citizens is monsterous, but it is no more so than Jim's continuing support of the shelling of civilians, as long as they are Israeli.


And I doubt if ANY here would think THAT was a fair assessment. Though perhaps Jim does...

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 08:03 AM

Jim, all those topics are worthy of debate, and I would relish the chance to put you right on Vietnam, Zimbabwe etc.
But, this thread is about the ongoing tragedy in Syria.

Have you anything to contribute to THIS debate?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 09:15 AM

Today.
Some 500 children have been killed amid the violence in Syria, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said Tuesday in Geneva, revising a previous estimate of 400 dead children.

In January alone, 80 children were killed, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said.

Pillay cited unspecified reports as the source of her statement, which came just three weeks after the United Nations Children's Fund made the previous estimate.

Pillay, said the international community has to take action to prevent Syrian security forces from continuing their attacks against civilians, which she said had resulted in "countless atrocities."

"There must be an immediate humanitarian cease-fire to end the fighting and bombardments," Pillay told an urgent meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council.

She urged Syria to end all fighting, allow international monitors to enter the country and give unhindered access for aid agencies to enter Homs and other embattled cities

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

While you continue to ignore the part Britain is playing in the distribution of weapons to murderously oppressive regimes you continue to be a mealy-mouthed apologist for what these weapons are being used for - you don't even have the good grace to acknowledge that they have been, and are still being sold to regimes who use them to kill their people in order to maintain the sytatus quo
You really do not have a case.
"Have you anything to contribute to THIS debate? "
This debate is about the supplying of weapons to tryants - you have limited it to Russia and China - it is about ALL NATIONS WHICH SELL WEAPONS TO THESE PEOPLE - you are a mealy-mouthed hyocrite who has consistently lied to maintain your non-existent case.
"shelling of civilians, as long as they are Israeli.
"
I have never at any time supported the shelling of civilians; I have said that in a territorial war it is inevitable - if you can point out where I have supported it - please do - have asked before and you didn't respond
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 09:58 AM

This debate is about the supplying of weapons to tryants
No, you need to start a thread if you want that.
I wish you would.
This is about the ongoing human catastrophe in Syria, and about who is responsible.

- you have limited it to Russia and China
That is because they supplied, and are still supplying the weapons and ammunition that is sustaining the carnage.
Not Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM

...from Reuters:

"Assad has ruled Syria for 11 years since succeeding his father Hafez on his death. The Assad family belongs to the Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam, in a majority Sunni country, and there are fears that the uprising could break down into a full sectarian conflict.

Two Iranian warships docked at the Syrian port of Tartous on Saturday, Iranian state TV reported. The ships were said to be providing training for Syrian naval forces.

With Shi'te-led Iran already at odds with the United States, Europe and Israel over its nuclear program, the deployment was likely to add to Western concerns that the Syria crisis could boil over into a regional conflict if it is not resolved soon.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Dan Meridor, asked about the Iranian move at briefing in Jerusalem, said Assad was receiving generous support from Iran and the Hezbollah militant group, and that Russia and China had given him 'a licence to kill.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:08 PM

"No, you need to start a thread if you want that. "
No I don't Keith - it is about supplying weapons to Assad - Libya, Egypt, and all the rest of the Arab Spring states follow naturally.
Stop trying to police threads into your comfort zone - you told us you didn't do such things.
If not, what is the minimum size of weapon you would allow to be discussed on this thread, (assuming you had the authority to police it) - and why (other than to let Britain off the hook for selling weapons to killers.
Alternatively; if Cameron's trade fair efforts where successful, what weapons would you think it permissable to sell Bahrain say?
I don't really expect an answer from someone so spineless as your good self!
Any luck Brucie - can I expect a retraction and an apology or are you yet another spineless liar, like friend Keith?
Don't you people realise that if you have to lie to make your case, you have no case?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:29 PM

Jim, you are the ONLY PERSON who is demanding to change the subject of this thread.
Why?
Do you think that the greatest crime against humanity for decades is not worthy of having a thread devoted to it while it is still ongoing?
Hardly!
You have to change it because the guilty are all enemies of Israel, or a hardline Communist regime, or a regime run by a hardline KGB man.
All you want to do is attack Britain, Israel or USA.

And you have largely succeeded in sidelining the suffering of Syria.
You probably feel good about that.
Decent people are disgusted.
Even your mates this time.
Well done you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 01:44 PM

Well, Jimmie,

YOU stated that it was equivalent for the Palestinians to launch rockets at civilians as for the Israelis to attack the launch sites of those rockets. Yet, YOU only took the Israelis to task.

IMO, this is supporting those rockets, since you had nothing to say about them.

YOU have stated that other's FAILURE TO COME OUT against Israeli action was support- THEREFORE your failure o censure the Palestinians as much a support of those Palestinian actions.

Unless you are insisting on different rules to be applied to your statements than you have applied to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 02:46 PM

The US has lost all moral authority to act as a decent broker in Syria or Israel/Palestine
since it is engaged in wars of oppression in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Bahrain
and other places which line the pockets of military contractors and the Pentagon.

That's why the US has no answer for the atrocities in Homs.

Israeli or Palestinian rockets have perpetuated the problem; the oppression of the Palestinian people and the paranoia of Israel have put the world on the brink of a new world war.

The solution is neither a Jewish state or a Muslim state but an equal sharing without the specter of religion controlling either. The US would never consent to being a Muslim, Jewish or Christian country. You'd see a civil war erupt before that would happen.
That's what democracy looks like.

The Homs horror may have something to do with religious factionalism and a military solution will not solve this division.

The role of the UN has been weakened by US political manipulation and it needs to regain its proper role in the international body of justice. When the US or Israel walk out of the meetings, this reinforces the impotence of the UN as arbiter.

Ahmadinejad and Netanyahu are both propagandists with equal incredibility. Neither can be relied upon for objective policy decisions.

Bashar Assad is prevailing precisely because of the weakness of the UN and the US in establishing a role as honest broker for Homs.

The solution has not even worked for Libya as the prevailing "side" has committed atrocities and the country is being governed by those sympathetic to Ghaddafi.

Egypt at least has the sense to know that the military in that country can't govern effectively.

The solution rests with the UN becoming the body it was intended to be before it was sabotaged by political interests.

Also, the solution is to deny these ostensible leaders the controlling device of war by resistance on the part of citizens. Time to take to the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:03 PM

"Yet, YOU only took the Israelis to task."
Is that really all you could come up with to show I have backed the rocketing of Israel - come on, you can do better than that
I believe Israel to be a terrorist state that has persistantly attacked and annexed Palestinian land, facilitated two of the greatest massacres of civilians, killed aid workers, bombed built up areas, including with chemical weapons that have burned women and children to the bone....
This does not mean I have sanctioned the killing of ordinary Israeli citizens - if I have, please show me where - or admit you are lying.
I have said consistently that while Israel carries out its predatory expansionist policies the bombing will continue - that is not supporting it, it is stating the obvious.
Israel is a powerful state (with nuclear potential which it tried to sell to the Apartheid regime in South Africa - funny nobody has ever responded to that, don't you think?) which is persucuting an impoverished peasant people (whatever we may think of their leadership.
I have never at any time supported the killing and maiming of ANY CIVILIANS with mortars, with heavy artillery, with chemicals that burn your skin off - in any way whatsoever.
If I am lying, provide the proof that I have, otherwise withdraw your accusation and apologise.
If you don't, you are no better than the other lying fascist moron.
What is wrong with you people - I've had my views deliberately distorted, I am constantly accused of lying, I've seen my mother obscenely insulted by a thuggish weapons fantasist who insists on showing us all his weapon - what a ******* team you all make.
Put up or shove it.
"Jim, you are the ONLY PERSON who is demanding to change the subject of this thread."
No Keith - you are the only one insisting on confining it to two states selling large weapons in order to avoid discussing the general issue of arming despots - that is what the subject is about.
Apart from that - you have persistently attempted to change the debate to Palestine - making you the only one who has tried to change the subject of the thread - you certainly are the only one to attempt to police it
I dont see any friends here just a couple of sieg heilers and a bunch of apologists for the arms trade.
You have not answered one single question you have been asked - try again:
"what is the minimum size of weapon you would allow to be discussed on this thread, (assuming you had the authority to police it) - and why (other than to let Britain off the hook for selling weapons to killers?"
"If Cameron's trade fair efforts where successful, what weapons would you think it permissable to sell Bahrain say?"
Subject from the start arming murderous dictators - size of weapons totally and absolutely immaterial - they all kill - sniper rifles kill civilians particularly.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 07:01 PM

Another Jim post.
Pages of multi colour, multi font, irrelevant tosh.
NOTHING about the heinous atrocities that the whole world, bar your three states, is raging over.

Jim, you ARE the only person who keeps changing the subject away from the horror in Homs and other Syrian towns and cities.

If you want me to knock down your worthless arguments again, start threads about the arms trade, events in South Africa 50 years ago, etc.

This thread is about Syria.
The clue is in the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 04:05 AM

Today.

On 4 February China and Russia blocked a UN resolution backing an Arab plan condemning the crackdown and calling on President Bashar al-Assad to step down.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton last week called that veto "despicable" - comments the Chinese foreign ministry said were not acceptable.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said of the latest resolution efforts: "I solemnly appeal to Russia and China that they do not block this new resolution at the Security Council."

Faysal Khabbaz Hamoui said the debate was "fuelling the flames of terrorism"
Meanwhile Syrian opposition activists say the situation in the Baba Amr district of Homs remains dire, with little food, water or medicine.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights says some 100 people were killed in the past two days in the continuing Syrian bombardment of Homs.


The UN's new estimate of the number of deaths in Syria came at a meeting of the UN Security Council.

"There are credible reports that the death toll now often exceeds 100 civilians a day, including many women and children," said Lynn Pascoe.

"The total killed so far is certainly well over 7,500 people."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 04:24 AM

Keith:
I do not think I have ever witnesses such a blatent and disgusting attempt by anybody, certainly not on this forum, to prevent people from giving their opinion in order to steer the discussion away from uncomfortable areas of the subject - it is on par with any dictator that is under discussion here.
You have even attempted to involve others on this thread in order to prevent a full discussion of this subject - "Decent people are disgusted. Even your mates this time."
There is no such disgust here, disagreement certainly, but that's what these discussions are about.
This is as manipulately dishonest and about as contemptuous of your fellow forum members as you could possibly get.
To describe that past arming of other states involved in the Arab Spring and the continued arming of States which have been involved and could in future become the focus of pro-democracy demonstrations, as "thread drift" is crude, prejudiced manipulation of the subject under discussion because it deals with areas that conflict with your personal beliefs.
The accusation of "thread drift" has been use persistantly by you throughout this thread to avoid the fact that the West, including Britain, have armed, and continue to arm (via Arms Fairs) states which are undemocratic and oppressive - from the horse's mouth:

"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records. We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
Vince Cable, the Business Secretary in the coalition cabinet of David Cameron

To suggest that this cannot be part of a thread on massacres carried out during Arab Spring protests is utterly and completely ludicrously, yet you have put it forward throughout this discussion in order not to have to discuss Britain's part in the arms trade, particularly to states involved in the current disputes.
At the same time as you have claimed "thread drift", you have desperately attempted to divert this thread to dicussing Palestine in the hope of being able to once again distort my views on that subject, totally unrelated to the topic in hand - do you not think it is time that you seriously sought help?
One last time - THIS IS NOT YOUR FORUM - YOU HAVE NO RIGHT WHATEVER TO MANIPULATE IT - YOU HAVE NO SAY IN WHAT THE REST OF US HAVE TO SAY AND HOW WE SAY IT - IF YOU THINK THAT I OR ANYBODY YOU DISCUSS WITH ARE OUT OF LINE, REPORT US - STOP ACTING LIKE A GOOSE-STEPPING LITTLE DICTATOR, OR PERHAPS ONE OF US MIGHT CONSIDER REPORTING YOU - IN OTHER WORDS, G.F.Y.
Bruce:
No proof, no retraction, no apology - why did I ever believe there should be?
Congratulations; you have just qualified for inclusion in the trio along with the idiot and the gunner - I hope you enjoy each others company
Stringsinger - thank you for adding a clear headed and articulate blast of fresh air to this cess-pit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:56 AM

Jim, I can't stop you posting about Vietnam 40 years ago, or S.Africa over 50 years ago, but expect no response.

I do not agree with Stringsinger, but he was posting about Syria.
Only you are determined to derail discussion of it.

Your motive?
The guilty are all communist, ex communist or enemies of Israel.
You only want to criticise Britain, Israel and America.
So Syria's suffering must be squeezed out.
Despicable.
Disgusting.
You are on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 06:10 AM

Probably the most important statement to come out of the Syrian conflict to date.
From this morning's Times
Jim Carroll
Not sure where the suggestion that Assad could be sold riot-control gear features in all this!

WE SYRIANS NEED YOUR OUTRAGE - NOT YOUR PITY

Fares Chamseddine

When Marie Colvin and Remi Ochlik were killed by a rocket in Homs last week, it did more than just focus the rest of the world's attention once again on the horrific number of people killed so far in my homeland. It also helped to reawaken the spent passion of Syrians.
Many of my fellow countrymen and women that I know—and many that I don't—were quick to express their sorrow and outrage through Facebook and Twitter. One blogger changed her profile picture to one of Marie Colvin to show solidarity. For large numbers of us, myself included, the daily body count had simply stopped shocking us. Somewhere along the line, without us realising it, we had got used to the carnage; the news that a dozen Syrians had been killed here or there had ceased to trigger the anger that it deserved to.
The deaths of, at the most conservative estimate, more than 5,000 people in Syria is an outrage. It is a grim achievement of the Assad regime that so many people are numbed to it — Hannah Arendt once described something similar and called it "the banality of evil".
But there are people in the world who will not be numbed, and Marie Colvin died because of her belief that the suffering she witnessed in Syria should not go unnoticed. That is why many Syrians are grateful to her and is what the Assad regime wishes so desperately to stop.
The Syrian people do not want pity for their sufferings. For more than a year, many have freely and of their own choice risked their lives in the face of a brutal regime; at first simply to fight for basic dignities and later to overthrow the entire regime. What they want is for the outside world to share their moral outrage at the barbarism inflicted on them every day.
The Assad regime is trying to sweep away its culpability for the bloodshed by claiming that it is fighting religious terrorists and Salafists funded from abroad. The absurdity of this argument is plain to see—it would be as if the British Government were to besiege and shell Leeds simply because some of the 7/7 bombers came from there. This excuse should be dismissed outright as a shameless attempt to distract attention from the real issue —that the Syrian regime is systematically murdering its own people simply because-they have dared to challenge the Assad family's 40-year grip on the country.
Albert Hourani, the distinguished historian of the Arab world, once said that power is never comfortable unless it can turn itself into a legitimate authority. For more than ten years Bashar Assad has sought to do just that.
Spin-doctors, usually expatriates
with some standing, have quietly been trying to convince governments, academics and journalists that the Syrian regime is one that the West could do business with. They have worked to portray the regime as a firm but fair authoritarian government, a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism or a critical partner in negotiations with Iran or Israel.
The regime has done its best to make sure that flattering articles appear on the travel pages of newspapers; in a now infamous interview with Vogue magazine, Assad's wife said that she ran her family on "wildly democratic principles". The Assad regime has desperately sought to make itself socially acceptable to the West. Remember, this regime and its supporters wish very much to continue sending their wives and children to shop and study in the West, and to buy properties in exclusive parts of London and Paris.
Whether he is posing as a reasonable middle man who represents secularism or now as a champion of anti-imperialism fighting a cosmic conspiracy of the CIA, Mossad and Saudi Arabia, Assad cares a lot about his image and the way that the world sees him.
The tragic deaths of the past year, and of Marie Colvin and Remi Ochlik, have destroyed Assad's meticulously constructed image of moderation. But if people around the world could do one thing for Syrians, it is to prevent such an image from again masking the true nature of his barbarous regime. We must not allow him the legitimacy and credibility that he, and all other dictators, crave so desperately.
FARES CHAMSEDDINE IS THE PEN-NAME OF A SYRIAN BLOGGER LIVING IN BRITAIN

PPS get stuffed Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 06:41 AM

"I can't stop you posting about Vietnam"
I mentioned it in passing in relation to downgrading the importance of weapons – your fick friend ran with it and made it an issue by stated once again that Agent Orange was not a chemical weapon – take it up with him
"The guilty are …. or enemies of Israel "
Now there's an interesting statement –that would include probably most members of this forum – if you are referring to Israel's territorial policy
Your complaint of "thread drift" throughout has been on including British weapon sales to Arab Spring' States and none of these things .
You are now lying about what you are claiming as thread drift – you appear to have no concept of truth whatever and certainly no shame
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:14 AM

Jim,

So you insist that the logic YOU USED to condemn us is not to be applied to you??

THAT was my proof, and you declare it invalid- thus YOUR arguments are invalid, as well.


You may have once worked for someone who made something that someone sold to a fascist- BY YOUR LOGIC YOU ARE A FASCIST.

As I stated, your mother would not be proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 08:02 AM

You are now lying about what you are claiming as thread drift
No.
The thread is about the atrocities in Syria.
You want to criticise British arms sales to other countries.
That is more than just drift.
Start a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 09:36 AM

Bruce - you have specifically said on a number of occasions that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China".
I have not and you have not withdrawn the accusation.
You say here I have supported the bombardment of Israel by Hamas - I have pointed out that I believe it to be inevitable in the light of Israel's expansionist policy - that has always been and continues to be my position.
In both cases, you are now calling me a liar
Now, if you are unable to substantiate these accusations, kindly frig off and join your friends.
"The thread is about the atrocities in Syria."
Only because you choose to make it so to protect Britain's part in selling weapons to the Arab Spring countries - this thread is about massacres in an Arab Spring country - by any stretch of the imagination well within the bounds of anything I have raised.
Incidentally:
"I do not agree with Stringsinger, but he was posting about Syria."
Stringsinger's excellent posting brought in the US, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bahrain, Israel, Palestine, Libya, Egypt and the Yemen -off topic, would you say?
Now do the same as I have just invited your friend to do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 09:52 AM

Only because you choose to make it so to protect Britain's part in selling weapons to the Arab Spring countries

No. I chose to make it so because of the magnitude of the catastrophe.
There has been no precedent for many years.
Of course it is worthy of a dedicated thread.
Your reasons for not wanting it are all to clear.
I would enjoy knocking down your specious arguments, but not here.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:06 AM

Jim,

Please learn to read.

"Bruce - you have specifically said on a number of occasions that I have supported "Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, and China".
I have not and you have not withdrawn the accusation."

BUT YOU HAVE, by the standards that you have applied to others. I HAVE STATED THAT, and given the reasons, WHICH YOU HAVE NOT CONTRADICTED.


"You say here I have supported the bombardment of Israel by Hamas - I have pointed out that I believe it to be inevitable in the light of Israel's expansionist policy - that has always been and continues to be my position.""

Not exclusive positions- If I said that it was inevitable that Israel would target the launch sites, do YOU accept that as anything other than a support of Israel???


Your being a liar, or applying a different set of rules to yourself than you apply to others is NOT my responsibility. ONLY YOU can change what you have demonstrated here that you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:40 AM

Last time about Palestine
I do not support the bombardment of Israel, but I describe it as inevitable in the circumstances.
My stance is, and always has been that I deplore the killing of civilians under any circumstances; I'm sure you encounteres this when you were desperately searching for examples of my support for Hamas et al.
I have also said that I would never give my support to any religion influenced Government, Christian, Muslim, Zionist...
You are asking that I apportion blame and you equate my refusing to do so in favour of Israel as support for the bombardment
I believe that the blame for the prevailing situation between Palestine and Israel is, at the very least, equally shared. What the Palestinians have done to the Israelis is matched tenfold by the actions of the Israeli Government in its massacres, annexation and building programme, ghettoisation policy, Berlin-type wall, attemts to starve into submission with the blockade, incursions with chemical weapons and heavy artillery, and the daily persecution, harrasment and humiliation of ordinary people just trying to live their everyday lives.
As far as both their leaderships, I don't think you could squeeze a credit card between them - I have not taken sides in supporting either - you have.
Damn them both and damn you for a liar.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 02:42 AM

Today.
Ban Ki Moon wants to appeal directly to Assad to stop.
A ground offensive has begun.
From The Independent,
The battle, news of which is impossible to verify since the electricity supply to the city has largely been cut, came after a Syrian government official said that district of Baba Amr, a rebel stronghold, would be "cleansed".

The fighting would pitch the largely under-armed opposition against Bashar al-Assad's brother, Maher, and his feared 4th Armoured Division, which is understood to have been sent to Homs. "We have nothing to do but pray for them." Abu Yaser, a Homs-based activist, said.

Some activists said they feared an assault on a comparable scale to the 1982 attack on the neighbouring city of Hama in which at least 10,000 people were killed. "The only aim is to repeat the massacre of Hama," a Homs-based activist styling himself Abu Bakr told AFP.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:16 PM

Dear Keith
Before this thread sinks under the cess pit that you and your thuggish friends have placed it in.
I don't think I have ever been part of a discussion that has been subject to such attempts to apply censorship because the counter-arguments don't suit someone's particular political outlook - 10-out-of-ten for effort, nil-out-of-ten for content.
You appear to believe you have some authority on this forum that gives you the right stifle discussion because your own stupidity has blown the discussion up in your face.
Your campaign of harassment and bullying in the form of 'thread drift' was one of the most blatant displays of self-serving manipulation I have ever witnessed, all in an attempt to obscure and divert away from the fact that Britain has sold and continues to sell weapons and equipment to murderous dictators. You even managed to suggest that it would be acceptable to sell "riot-control gear" to one of the most ruthless and murderous of those dictators.
Your crass claims that the arming of other Arab Spring dictators involved in suppressing democracy protests was off –subject "thread drift" (and anti-British) was made even more crass by the fact that throughout the thread you have been deliberately trying to drift the thread to Palestine in order to obscure your own inept arguments.
I wouldn't dream of depriving you of your "thread drift" bolt hole, If you ever again try to censor me or anybody with your bullying tactics to the extent you have here, I will have no hesitations in reporting you to the forum fairies - you are not a thread adjudicator, you are nothing more than a (even less than nothing after your disgusting display here).
You have already been warned publicly for sending fake postings in support of your own arguments - let's see if we can't get a hat-trick before 2012 is out
I was a little surprised that the forum fairies did not intervene when one of your sewer-mouthed colleagues managed to reduce Mudcat to the level of a dirty macintosh porn chat-line with an obscene attack on a member of my family - but they do have their work cut out keeping us children in order, and maybe they were afraid he would come and wave his weapon at them!
Thanks for the early birthday present in the form of your proposal that Britain could sell Assad anti-riot gear to keep his people in line; I'll keep it safe and only use it at the appropriate time - along with your "culturally implanted Pakistani paedos" I look forward to reading that this posting is "thread drift"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 03:03 AM

apply censorship because the counter-arguments don't suit someone's particular political outlook

You made no counter arguments Jim!
I just objected to you, for your own devious political motives, changing the subject from events in Syria to arms sales to other countries.

your proposal that Britain could sell Assad anti-riot gearto keep his people in line
Non-lethal equipment does not keep people in line.
Demonstrators live to continue the struggle.
Their cause gets global coverage and gains support.
You prefer lethal bullets be used to kill and demoralise them.
Hospitals trawled for survivors and protest suppressed.
You are a fascist Jim.

Today, Red Crescent allowed into worst effected parts of Homs.

In a unanimous statement yesterday, the UN Security Council expressed its "disappointment" that UN humanitarian chief Valerie Amos had not been granted authorisation to visit Syria, and demanded immediate access for her.

Russia and China, who vetoed two previous Security Council resolutions on Syria, also backed the call.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 03:26 AM

You even managed to suggest that it would be acceptable to sell "riot-control gear" to one of the most ruthless and murderous of those dictators.

That was Hamas Jim.
I may want to remind you of that description.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 01:50 AM

A British photographer injured in Syria says the attacks on the city of Homs are "a systematic slaughter of the civilian population".

Paul Conroy, 47, a British photographer injured in Syria last week in an attack which killed two journalists, told the BBC's Newsnight he feared a massacre was about to occur.

Mr Conroy, who was smuggled to Lebanon by Syrian rebels, said he had covered "a fair few wars" but what was happening in Homs was "on another level".

He said: "There are no targets in Baba Amr. There are no military targets, it's pure and systematic slaughter of a civilian population. The only reason those shells are going in are to eliminate the people and buildings of Baba Amr.

"I saw it. When I got there, I'd seen the reports, there is no war, it's a slaughterhouse."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 01:59 AM

Red Cross waited to get access to a bombed-out part of Homs.

The ICRC said it had been refused permission to deliver aid to the Baba Amr district, which has suffered heavy bombardment by government forces in recent weeks, despite getting the go-ahead from the authorities on Friday morning.

ICRC President Jakob Kellenberger said the hold-up was "unacceptable".

Of the 100,000 people who normally live there only a few thousand remain, with the FSA saying it had pulled back to save those still there from an all-out assault.

Many of those still in the district are without power and running low on basic supplies. The ICRC has said it fears there could be many seriously wounded people there.

The delay has given rise to opposition allegations that government forces were removing evidence of summary killings.

Activists spoke of revenge killings in an agricultural area outside Homs, and the summary killing of 10 people behind a local co-operative building.

The opposition Local Co-ordination Committees reported that in Syria as a whole 56 people had died on Friday, of which 32 were killed in Homs and 16 in the nearby town of Rastan

Ban-ki Moon, "The disproportionate use of force by Syrian authorities has driven what had been largely peaceful opposition forces to resort to take up arms in some cases," he said.

"The images which we have seen in Syria are atrocious. It's totally unacceptable, intolerable. How, as a human being, can you bear this situation?"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 03:37 PM

ICRC convoy still prevented from entering.

In an address to the UN General Assembly on Friday, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said the international community (i.e. Russia and China) had failed in its duty, and inaction had encouraged Syria's leaders in their repression of civilians.

Mr Ban said it was time for the international community to speak with one voice.

"Continued division emboldens the Syrian authorities in their violent path," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 03:29 AM

From Guardian today.

"Between one and two thousand [Syrians] are in the process of coming from Syria to Lebanon," the UNHCR's deputy representative in Lebanon, Jean Paul Cavalieri, told Reuters. "This is what we are hearing from our teams on the ground and local authorities."

The exodus from Syria's third city has intensified since loyalist forces ousted the opposition Free Syria Army from the Baba Amr neighbourhood on Friday. There is little information about the fate of up to 20,000 residents thought to be there when the siege began four weeks ago.

For the third day running, the International Committee for the Red Cross was denied access to Baba Amr despite earlier assurances that it could deliver aid to residents trapped in the fighting.

A seven-truck ICRC convoy has been waiting since Friday to enter Baba Amr, with local military authorities saying aid officials were being kept out for their own safety because of the presence of bombs and landmines, which they allege were left by opposition forces.

Activists and Free Syria Army officials vehemently deny having booby-trapped the area and say the regime has concocted a ruse to hide its activities there.

The lack of access has drawn international condemnation, with Turkey and Britain accusing Damascus of committing grave crimes in the rebel-held neighbourhood. Prime minister David Cameron on Friday called for Mr Assad to "face a day of reckoning" in the wake of the relentless crackdown on dissent that started a year ago.

Chastened by the Iraq war and wary of overtly backing another rebel militia after Libya, the US has instead imposed a series of sanctions against Syrian officials and has tried to muster support for a UN resolution that lays the groundwork for Assad to leave.

But even two watered-down versions, which did not demand Assad's exit, have been vetoed by Syria's allies, Russia and China, who have shown no sign that their support for Assad regime is wavering.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 07:51 AM

AMMAN (Reuters) - Syrian forces flooded the city of Deraa on Monday after overnight clashes there and pursued "clean-up" operations in Homs, where the Red Cross was still struggling to gain access to a former rebel bastion.
China said it would send an envoy to Syria to try to halt a conflict that has divided Beijing from Western and Arab powers demanding stronger action against President Bashar al-Assad.
Hundreds of troops and security men fanned out in Deraa, where the anti-Assad revolt flared nearly a year ago, on a scale not seen for months, a resident of the southern city said.
The clampdown followed attacks on security checkpoints in the city centre that were also the most extensive for months. At least one person was killed, the Deraa resident told Reuters.
Outgunned rebels have multiplied hit-and-run assaults across Syria in the last few days to signal their defiance after the military overran the Baba Amr district of Homs.
Syrian armored forces recaptured Baba Amr from its lightly armed defenders on Thursday after an almost month-long siege in which shelling reduced much of the district to rubble.
The International Committee of the Red Cross and the Syrian Arab Red Crescent were still seeking approval from Syrian authorities to enter Baba Amr to help civilians there.
The two agencies provided aid and medical care on Sunday to Baba Amr residents who had fled to the nearby village of Abel, ICRC spokesman Saleh Dabbakeh said in Damascus. "At the same time we continue trying to get into Baba Amr," he added.
Opposition activists have accused Syrian forces of carrying out bloody reprisals in Baba Amr, but their reports are hard to verify given Syria's severe curbs on independent media.
Human Rights Watch quoted "local sources" on Friday as saying about 700 civilians had been killed and thousands wounded in Homs since a military assault in the city began on February 3.
BABA AMR CLEAN-UP
Syria's state news agency said the authorities had begun to remove "destruction and debris left by armed terrorist groups in Inshaat and Baba Amr neighborhoods in Homs" on Sunday.
It said 16 members of the security forces killed by insurgents had been buried the same day.
The British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said the security forces had killed 29 people across Syria on Sunday. The Local Coordination Committees, a grassroots opposition group, put the death toll at 62, including 17 in Homs.
The United Nations refugee agency said up to 2,000 Syrians were fleeing the fighting for neighboring Lebanon, but it was not immediately clear how many had actually crossed the border.
"We had similar numbers in April 2011, but the flow of new arrivals had stabilized since then," Dana Sleiman, Beirut-based spokeswoman of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, said.
Lebanon hosts more than 7,000 registered refugees from Syria. Turkish leaders say about 12,000 Syrians, half of them not registered at camps, have fled to their country.
Refugees told Reuters of army shelling and gunfire in border towns. One woman said she and her family had fled the village of Jusiyah, near Qusair, about 12 km (7 miles) from Lebanon.
"In the morning the shelling started, so we had to leave towards Lebanon. There were some wounded, but I don't know what happened to them," Um Ali, 64, said on Sunday.
WORLD DISUNITED ON SYRIA
The world has failed to agree on how to halt the bloodshed in Syria. Last month China and Russia vetoed a U.N. Security Council draft resolution that would have backed an Arab League call for Assad to step down as part of a political transition.
Assad has rejected the plan, saying he is pressing ahead with his own political reform timetable, which includes a multi-party election within three months based on a new constitution.
Saudi Arabia and Qatar are among countries that have called for Syrian rebels to be armed, but there is little appetite in the West for Libya-style military intervention that could have many unforeseen consequences in the conflict-prone Middle East.
However, senior U.S. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham on Sunday advocated arming Syria's rebels through the Arab League and suggested the imposition of "no-drive" and "no-fly" zones against Syrian military forces.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov will join Arab counterparts in Cairo this month to discuss Syria.
And China's former ambassador to Damascus, Li Huaxin, will go to the Syrian capital on Tuesday to discuss a six-point Chinese plan, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said.
"Although conditions are extremely complicated, and the situation remains tense, China still maintains that a political solution offers the fundamental escape from the Syrian crisis," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Weimin said.
In a statement at the weekend, Beijing warned other powers not to use humanitarian aid for Syria to "interfere" there, and urged Assad's government and other warring sides to stop fighting "immediately, fully and unconditionally".
The United Nations says Syrian security forces have killed more than 7,500 civilians since the revolt against the Assad family's four-decade rule began in March last year.
Several Arab and Western countries have pulled their diplomats out of Syria and imposed sanctions in protest.
Air France cancelled its Damascus flight on Monday for "security reasons", a spokeswoman said without giving details. The airline has yet to decide on this week's remaining flights.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:18 AM

BBC today

The government has denied the Red Cross access to Baba Amr for four consecutive days, citing security concerns.

Activists have warned of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Electricity, water and communications have been cut off, and in recent days temperatures have plummeted and snow has fallen. Food supplies are said to be dangerously low, and many people are too scared to leave.


Opposition and human rights activists have said security forces and pro-government militia have been rounding up men and boys over the age of 14 who are still in Baba Amr, and then torturing and killing them.


One woman, who had walked for three days to escape, said that on Friday troops had taken 36 men and boys from one area and killed them.

"My son's throat was cut," she said. "He was 12."

Her husband said he was hiding about 50m away and saw one soldier hold down their son's head with his boot while another killed him.

"I could hear their screams," he added.

Another woman said: "They took our husbands. They took them at a checkpoint. They will slaughter them like sheep."

Several men who said they had defected from an elite army unit last week told our correspondent that civilians were being targeted by security forces and prisoners were being killed.


An independent commission of inquiry set up by the UN Human Rights Council said in February that Syrian security forces had "committed widespread, systematic and gross human rights violations, amounting to crimes against humanity, with the apparent knowledge and consent of the highest levels of the state".

It also found anti-government groups had committed abuses, but not "comparable in scale and organisation to those carried out by the state".

The EU has said it will document alleged war crimes to set the stage for a "day of reckoning" for Syria's leaders. But Russia and China have vetoed two UN Security Council resolutions critical of the government.

The director-general of the ICRC, Yves Daccord, earlier spoke of his concern about the humanitarian situation in Baba Amr.

"The situation is extremely difficult, the weather conditions are tragic," he told Swiss Radio and Television (RTS).


Russia is a key Syrian ally and the largest supplier of arms to the Assad regime "It is very cold, there is fighting and people don't have access to food or water, and above all there is a big problem of evacuating the wounded."


Diplomatic pressure appeared to be growing on Russia on Monday to drop its support for President Bashar al-Assad.

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said he hoped Moscow would "see that it stands on the wrong side of history" in regard to Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 11:22 AM

My opinion.
This is monstrous.
Russia and China have no shame.
Is anyone reading this stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 03:01 PM

"Is anyone reading this stuff? "
Bit difficult to comment really, as you have ruled out anything other than meaningless expressions of sympathy (which the Syrians have said they do not need) as anti-British and thread drift.
Perhaps if you lifted your veto on what we could and could not discuss and stop posting information that we can get by turning on the television or opening a newspaper (virtually all your cut-n-pastes have been lifted verbatim from the BBC website) you might just have a discussion. Alternatively, as you've ruled out a trade embargo, you haven't allowed discussion on the wisdom of selling weapons to terrorist states, you've suggested that the Syrian regime be sold riot control equipment.... and you've made no other positive suggestion whatever, what do you think should be done about the Syrian massacres (sorry, can't see the anti-riot equipment being a goer) - invite Assad to tea and give him a good talking to maybe? In the meantime, why not have a bath - your bath-tub must be just about full of crocodile tears by now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 03:27 PM

Unlike Russia and China, I do not have a veto Jim.
You made it clear that you did not accept my views on what was appropriate to post here, so do not use me as an excuse.

I can not help but be horrified by the plight of these people.
Sorry.
It must be seen as pathetic weakness to you on the Hard Left.

Only crocodile tears should ever be shed, right?

There is a trade embargo, but Russia and China ignore it.
They still supply arms and ammo. to the Butcher of Damascus.
I feel rage at that. You?

Russia and China have blocked everything the international community have tried to do to reign him in.
I rage at that too.
You?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 03:33 PM

"You? "
Said what I have to say Keith - complete with suggestions - you've ruled it 'off topic' because it implicates Britain in the murderous arms trade so kindly go screw yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 01:20 AM

No trace of concern about these reports.
No trace of anger at Damascus, Moscow or Peking.
Just Britain even though Britain bears no responsibility for this monstrous crime.
You exemplify the cold, hard Left.
Chilling.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:08 AM

I had a pm from Max last year.
He said that the forum is an historical document, and we should be aware of that as we post.
A future reader would wonder why such terrible events were not recorded.
They will wonder why they are not discussed, except in the context of international arms dealing.

Paul Wood

BBC News, outside Homs, Syria

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A terrible fear has seized people here about what the government forces are doing now that they are back in control.

In a house, we sat with six women and their 17 children. They had arrived that day. There were no men.

"We were walking out altogether until we reached the checkpoint," said one of the women, Um Abdo.

"Then they separated us from the men. They put hoods on their heads and took them away."

Where do you think they are now, I asked? The women replied all at once: "They will be slaughtered."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:12 AM

General warns of Syrian bioweapons, Iran threat
By LOLITA C. BALDOR | Associated Press – 3 hrs ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The top U.S. commander in the Middle East will warn Congress on Tuesday against efforts to scale back the Navy's presence in the embattled region, saying threats from Iran and elsewhere will require more ships and maritime missile defense capabilities.
Marine Gen. James Mattis, head of U.S. Central Command, also said Syria has a "substantial" chemical and biological weapons capability and thousands of shoulder-launched missiles. Until now, the U.S. military has largely declined to describe the expanse of weapons that President Bashar Assad's regime has at its disposal.
Mattis laid out his concerns in testimony prepared for Senate and House Armed Services Committee hearings this week. He and Navy Adm. William McRaven, head of U.S. Special Operations Command, are testifying before the Senate panel Tuesday. The testimony was obtained by The Associated Press.
Mattis' comments come as the Obama administration meets with Israeli leaders this week to discuss the escalating Iranian threat and the possibility of a pre-emptive strike by Israel.
Against a backdrop of roughly $500 billion in Pentagon budget cuts over the next decade, Mattis said the U.S. must use its Navy and special operations forces to maintain a smaller but still strong military presence in the Middle East as the wars in Iran and Afghanistan end.
"The stacked Iranian threats ... of ballistic missiles, long-range rockets, mines, small boats, cruise missiles and submarines demand stronger naval presence and capability to protect vital sea lines of communication," Mattis said.
At the same time, he described a deteriorating situation in Syria, fueled in part by Iran. The prospects of a civil war are rising in Syria, he said, but the "options available to address the situation are extremely challenging."
Some members of Congress have called for U.S. and international military action against the Assad regime to stem a brutal offensive against the Syrian people. But the Obama administration and other international leaders have opposed military intervention and instead have pushed instead for increased sanctions.
U.S. officials argue that unlike the military campaign in Libya last year that ousted Moammar Gadhafi, a military campaign in Syria would be far more difficult, would not get the backing of the U.N. Security Council and would be hampered by a less coordinated opposition force.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 03:24 AM

The bombardment of Homs will be judged by history as a massacre comparable to Rwanda or Srebrenica, says a British photographer injured in the attacks.

Paul Conroy, 47, told BBC's Newsnight he had witnessed "a systematic slaughter of the civilian population".

In all his experience of war zones, he had never seen anything on this level, he said, and in 10 years, the world would be "wringing its hands" in shame.

(Not the whole world Paul. Some tried.
Russia and China supplied and supported and blocked all international moves to stop it.)

Speaking from his hospital bed in London, Conroy described conditions in Homs as catastrophic, with people living in "bombed-out wrecks" and "waiting to die".

The next phase in the conflict will not be televised but it will happen, he said.

Urging the international community to act, he said that when Baba Amr fell, the regime would turn to other areas.

Paul Conroy describes the "pure, systematic slaughter of a civilian population"
"When Baba Amr is finished, and I think it's almost there now, we've watched it happen, they're going to move on, they're going to move into the countryside, the towns and there will be no witnesses," he said.

"Women, children, old men, young people will just cease to exist, they will cease to exist and in 10 years we will have an investigation and people will say 'how did this happen?'"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 04:13 AM

Read the whole piece here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17240610

Who better placed to have an opinion?
Putin has made it clear that Russia will not change its position on Syria and support and supplies to Assad's slaughter squads.
China has evacuated its people from Syria.
My opinion is that Russia and China should not stop an intervention.
Anyone else have an opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 05:56 AM

"Anyone else have an opinion?"
Yes indeedy.
Taken that the only positive suggestion that you have made on this thread so far is that Assad should be provided with anti-riot control equipment, these "heart-on-sleeve" news briefings are totally meaningless and are totally at odds with the support you have suggested is to be offered to this monster.
You have never withdrawn this suggestion, so we can assume it still stands; nor have you ever attempted to explain in apart from your bizarre defence that if he wasn't given such equipment he would have to be sold more lethal weapons - duhhhhh!!!
Of course, you have never explained, condemned or even referred to the British Government's stance - that no action is possible nor even desireable (as presented on the Question Time programme whuich included the British Defence Sectretary)
You and Weirdie Beardie have shot down economic intervention.
What is your point - are you still "only the messenger"?
We do indeed have an opinion
This atrocity has been created by buddying up to terrorist states, selling them weapons and ignoring their human rights records, therefore creating the possibility of it happening again and again and again and again......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 06:22 AM

No opinion on these events and what should be done then Jim.
No concern for the suffering, just a need to attack me for mentioning it.

And attack Britain of course.
British Government's stance - that no action is possible nor even desireable
A lie. Britain has been at the forefront.

You and Weirdie Beardie have shot down economic intervention.
There is economic intervention fool.
Sanctions by all decent governments, but not Russia, China or Iran.

the support you have suggested is to be offered to this monster.
If this were not so shocking you would be laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 06:31 AM

05 Mar 2012
Mr Cameron continued to condemn the Syrian regime's on going violence saying,"the history of Homs is being written in the blood of its citizens."

He made three key pledges to help Syrian citizens, promising more humanitarian assistance, to hold the those responsible for "slaughter" to account and to bring about the political transition that would put a stop to the killing.

The Prime Minister said Britain was playing a leading role and had already provided an extra £2 million to aid agencies operating on the ground to help deliver emergency medical supplies and food rations for 20,000 people.

He added that Britain would this week, continue to secure a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding an end to the violence and immediate humanitarian access.

"The longer access is denied, the more the world will believe that the Syrian regime is detemined to cover up the extent of the horror brought to bear on Baba Amr," he said.


"We are working to make sure those responsible for crimes are being held to account. The European Council agreed that there must be 'a day of reckoning' for those who are responsible," he added.

Mr Cameron said and he would use "every tool we can, sanctions, aid, the pressure of diplomacy, reaching out to the oposition in Syria and beyond."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 07:23 AM

Jimmie boy,

"You and Weirdie Beardie have shot down economic intervention."

Where?

If you make claims, be prepared to back them up

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 07:49 AM

"If you make claims, be prepared to back them up " The same as you have backed up your lying and proven to be such accusations. If I have mistakenly lumped you along with the other lying toerag - I appologise and withdraw my accusation - doesn't stop you from being a lying toerag in your own right though "No opinion on these events and what should be done then Jim." You have had my proposals - economic sanctions, stop selling arms to killers and question the wisdom of giving countries like China, Russia and the US the right of veto (made earlier on). ,I TAKE IT THAT YOUR PROPOSAL TO SELL RIOT EQUIPMENT TO ASSAD STILL STANDS THEN?,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

You are referring to this post presumably.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM

Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM

That's the one - and it would be every bit as big a crime to supply dictators with any method of suppressing opposition
Are you still supporting that suggestion?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 08:16 AM

Non-lethal equipment does not "suppress opposition" Jim.

Demonstrators live to continue the struggle with renewed anger.
Their cause gets global coverage and gains support.

You prefer lethal bullets be used to kill and demoralise them.
Hospitals trawled for survivors and protest effectively suppressed.
You are a fascist Jim.

Are you pleased with the action Britain is taking?
What is your opinion of the actions Russia, China and Iran are taking?
I find it abhorrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 08:57 AM

Jimmie boy,

YOU have yet to refute ANY of the facts I have stated. So, YOU are the lying scumbag , at least on this thread.

When you learn to address the statement rather than attack the person making it, you will probably have a better chance of having people listen to your views.

And when you present factual support for those views, instead of insults to all who disagree, you might even get people to agree with you.




At this point, you seem to be in support of any and all arms sales EXCEPT by Britain, since you still have not SPECIFIED that you object to Russia, China, Iran, et al, just made a blanket statement, and then called out BRITAIN.

If you were in court, and the group being judged had committed crimes, would you single out one and say" HE is guilty of running a red light" and keep quiet on the others who had murdered and raped??? THAT is the effect of your present argument.


When you maintain silence on greater cries, and point out minor ones, you are aiding and abetting the ones who commit the greater crime. AFTER you point out the murders, THEN tell us about the traffic violations.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 10:38 AM

"Non-lethal equipment does not "suppress opposition" Jim." I cannot believe the imbecilic level you have sunk to in order to - what - save face - support the sale of ammunition to Assad by Britain? You have Syria's human rights track record; have your own cut-n-pastes. What do you think happens when a demonstration is broken up in Syria - they all shake hands and go back to the pavilion? Read the reports of the revenge slaughter of anybody even suspected of opposition, or just being in the vicinity of a protest - the indescriminate sniping, the lorryloads of bodies being carted away..... it's all in your crocodile tears swimming pool Read the Amnesty report on Syrian huuman rights prior to the protests - arrest without warrant, detention without trial - THE DECADES OF TORTUREThis was the prevailing situation when the British authorities licensed "sniper bullets to be sold to Syria - and this is still the situation to which you are proposing the sale of riot control gear - even after Assad has murdered thousands of his people. It comes down to a choice - how would you rather the Syrian people die - blown to pieces by a Russian or Chinese shell, or in agony in one of Assad's torture centres with a red hot poker shoved into you, having been blinded by British supplied tear gas, or stunned by a British supplied rubber bullet, or knocked immoboliised by a British supplied water cannon - all sanctioned by you. "You prefer lethal bullets be used to kill and demoralise them." You continue to repeat this Dalek like mantra - where have I ever proposed the sale of anything to this regime? I have repeatedly said SELL THEM NOTHING - THEY ARE INHUMAN MONSTERS WHO SHOULD BE SOLD NOTHINGIf I have ever said anything different where is your evidence? RATHER THAN WITHDRAW YOUR OBSCENE PROPOSAL YOU ARE NOW TRYING TO DOWNGRADE THE EQUIPMENT YOU WOULD HAVE BRITAIN SELL TO SYRIA "At this point, you seem to be in support of any and all arms sales" WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE EVER SUPPORTED SELLING ARMS TO ASSAD OR ANY TERRORIST REGIME - PROBABLY ON THE SAME POSTING AS MY SUPPORT FOR HAMAS ET AL What a pair of lying shits and too stupid to cover their tracks Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 12:42 PM

Jimmie boy,

YOU have stated that silence on something implies consent- repeatedly, here and on other threads.

YOU have NOT stated that you object in the least to Russia, China, or Iran supplying major armaments to Syria, or the Palestinians, while complaining about Britain.


You have NOT stated that you are against the actions of Palestinians against Israel, while stating you were against the actions of Israel.



BY YOUR STANDARDS YOU HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING Hamas, Iran, China, and Russia at least as much as some here have supported Israel and Britain.


ANY denial of this by you needs to have factual evidence attached to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 01:16 PM

You now appear to have painted yourself into a corner where you have no alternative to repeat your lies without providing one shred of proof.
You have my stance on Hamas, on arming Assad, on selling arms to terrorist states - all above.
You desperately searched my postings to find evidence to your claims and discovered none.
And you say I have no credibility!!!
I hope you and the idiot will be very happy together
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 01:31 PM

And between you - you haven't got the nouse to cover up your lying - which is now on record
What a pair of maggots you have proved yourselves to be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 02:56 PM

Jimmkie boy,

MY statements of your past posts stands unrefuted by you. As you agree to them, how are they lies?

If you mean to say that my applying the same rules YOU applied to others in the past to YOU is unfair, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM.


"
YOU have stated that silence on something implies consent- repeatedly, here and on other threads.

DO YOU DENY THIS?





YOU have NOT stated that you object in the least to Russia, China, or Iran supplying major armaments to Syria, or the Palestinians, while complaining about Britain.

DO YOU DENY THIS?





You have NOT stated that you are against the actions of Palestinians against Israel, while stating you were against the actions of Israel.

DO YOU DENY THIS?








BY YOUR STANDARDS YOU HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING Hamas, Iran, China, and Russia at least as much as some here have supported Israel and Britain.

Without refuting the previous statements, this is the ONLY logical conclusion that a person can draw.

ANY denial of this by you needs to have factual evidence attached to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 02:56 PM

I have not, and do not lie Jim.
I did state that it was better to provide non-lethal than lethal kit.
Disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 02:58 PM

And... you are still talking of "sniper bullets" supplied by Britain.
I have no evidence of any such.
Have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 02:46 AM

And still no withdrawing of the suggestion to supply equipment to quash the protests - which will stand as long as you are a member of this forum.
Wierdie
You have statements of my position on every one of the issues you have named - they have been there since I participated in the discussions and you HAVE TOTALLY FAILED TO FIND ONE WORD TO THE CONTRARY
I have neither the time nor the inclintion to reiterate those statements to a pair of serial liars and apologists for the arming of terrorist regimes, and I don't intend to here.
At least the gun-thug had the good sense to slither off when his limited imagination ran out of obscene abuse - unless you have any evidence to prove your 'case' I suggest you pair do the same
Have a nice day y'all

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 02:56 AM

Jim, I do not lie.
You claimed that Britain supplied weapons to Syria.
That was not true.
You are still claiming sniper bullets were supplied in the complete absence of the slightest scrap of any evidence.
Or have you found some.

You have filled this thread with irrelevant condemnations of Britain.
Irrelevant because Britain is not responsible for a single death in Syria.

Normally vociferous in condemnation of acts of inhumanity, you are almost silent on this, the worst for decades.
No real compassion.
Just pushing a political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 06:45 AM

Today.

Russia said it could not back a new UN draft resolution on Syria as it was "unbalanced".

The draft resolution demands the Syrian government "immediately" ends violence while calling on opposition groups to "refrain from all violence"

Russia and China have jointly vetoed two previous UN Security Council drafts.

Does anyone think they are right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 06:58 AM

"You claimed that Britain supplied weapons to Syria."
No Keith - you claimed they were sniper bullets
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
Now go and screw yourself, or each other, if that turns you on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 07:28 AM

You. 6.01AM 13thFeb
"These "atrocities committed by the regime in Syria," are being committed with weapons sold to Syria by Britain "
"You have been shown what damage is being done to civilians by these weapons yet you have not uttered one word of condemnation on their being supplied by our government "

You. 2.24AM 14th Feb
"When it is pointed out to you that Britain also sold weapons to that dictator(Assad), this time to be used on civilians - you squeal"

If you are using me to support your sniper bullets claim, you are lost.
I keep telling you I have no knowledge of sniper bullets being supplied, and do not believe any ammunition was supplied.
AND NO WEAPONS SUPPLIED TO SYRIA BY BRITAIN AT ALL!
IT IS MADE UP.
A LIE JIM.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 01:42 PM

"I keep telling you I have no knowledge of sniper bullets being supplied,"
Then why did you claim that is what Britain sold to Assad - one more time?
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
Why did your thuggish friend accept your opinion that they were sniper bullets?
"Guess what "Jim Lad" - Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it."
Why did you and your fick friend attempt to play down the size of the shipment as only "£30,000 worth"?
Why have you both claimed that the order for ammunition was licenced but never dispatched - without proof of course?
And why have you continued to claim despite you having acknowledged it and the documented evidence, that the order does not exist?
I would be extremely careful not to contradict Billy the Kid - he has a weapon and he's not afraid to use it
"Not when it comes to the Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69 Christmas I own one"
http://www.steyrarms.com/products/sporting-rifles/steyr-ssg-69/
So you appear to be left with only one alternative on this thread - that is to urge the British Government to take up your proposal to provide Assad with only "riot control equipment" in the hope that they will not sell them heavy weaponry (oh, and in the hope that they will not arrest, imprison and torture those demonstrators immobilised by that equipment)
So you see - I don't need your support for he sniper bullets - you've already given it.
Even if you hadn't, and even if they were not sniper bullets- it doesn't really matter - the British Government should never have issued a licence to sell either arms or equipment to a regime such as Syria
So what exactly have I made up - the shipment exists and is documented - Britain supplied similar regimes with weapons and equipment (also documented) - Britain continues to sell weapons to countries with similar track records (that nice Mr Cable said so - and he doesn't tell lies, does he).
So what is there for to have made up - it's all there
Have a nice evening
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 02:28 PM

I have explained that mistake many times.
I will repeat the posts again if you have really forgotten.

A licence was issued years ago for a small amount of ammunition, but Britain does not make ammunition for Syria's (Russian) weapons.
The licence was revoked and I do not believe that any was supplied.

Britain supplied no weapons to Syria.

What have I stated that is untrue?

(The amount was very small for an army the size of Syria's)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 03:02 PM

"What have I stated that is untrue?" Britain supplies small missiles that kill people to a regime that is in the process of slaughtering thousands - what have I said that was untrue - either here or in my last post? Why do you continue to propose that the same regime be sold riot control equipment? "The licence was revoked and I do not believe that any was supplied. " Can you show me the evidence for either of those claims - especially as you have been denying the existence of the shipment for a large part of this thread? And even so BRITAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE SOLD ANY EQUIMENT TO A REGIME THAT ARRESTS< IMPRISONS WITHOUT TRIAL AND TORTURES ITS OWN PEOPLE Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 12 - 03:25 AM

I agree with that post Jim except-
it is misleading to classify bullets as weapons, and I only said that non-lethal was preferable to deadly weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

Today
One activist in Homs, Hadi Abdallah, told AFP the bodies of 26 children and 21 women were found, some with their throats slit and others bearing stab wounds.

Both the opposition Syrian Revolution General Commission (SRGC) and the Local Co-ordination Committees (LCC) put the toll at 45.

The SRGC said that some of the victims had been burned alive with heating fuel poured over them and others had their necks and limbs broken.

The regime confirmed the killings but blamed "terrorists."

Panorama, BBC1, tonight is about Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 01:08 PM

The British Government has sold no weapons/arms to Syria.

There you go Christmas - prove that statement a lie.

If you cannot do that then come back and admit that your statement to the effect that people in Homs were being slaughtered by weapons supplied by the British is/was a complete and utter load of bullshit and completely without foundation.

Should be easy enough for you YES/NO??

I apologise that your little jibe about me talking about a particular firearm being only pub talk turned out to be wrong, but there again I tend to get my facts right and speak from experience or from having at least researched the subject under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 02:02 PM

"The British Government has sold no weapons/arms (verified by their own records)to Syria"
The British authorities issued a licence the selling of small missiles for killing people to the Syrian regime (sniper bullets according to you and your fick friend)
These could have been used against their own people or used in training the snipers who are now slaughtering Syrian people - but with their tradck record, pea-shooters would have been a no-no in order not to implicate Britain in the carrying out of war crimes.
So far you have
a Admitted this to be true.
b dismissed it as being too small an order to worry about
c Denied it
d Admitted it to be true again, but claimed without a shred of evidence that the licence was rescinded and the shipment was not sent (all without a shred of proof)
Where are we at the moment - did they, didn't they, was it, wasn't it?
A yes or no will suffice, but proof might be helpful.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 02:39 PM

Whoops -sticky keyboard again should, of course red
"The British Government has sold no weapons/arms )to Syria"
The British authorities issued a licence the selling of small missiles for killing people to the Syrian regime (verified by their own records) (sniper bullets according to you and your fick friend)
Sure that slip'll give you lots to talk about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 04:35 PM

Sorry - didn't quite catch that; was that a yes or a no?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 04:41 PM

Everyone knows what a bullet is Jim.
If you have to call them "small missiles for killing people" it just shows how weak your case is.

Why do you keep on about sniper bullets?
There is absolutely nothing to suggest sniper bullets.
Or is there Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 04:49 PM

"There is absolutely nothing to suggest sniper bullets....Why do you keep on about sniper bullets?"
But you and The Thug insisted that there was - don't tell me you were both lying - heaven forbid!!
Feel like giving us a song?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 05:23 PM

I am fallible Jim.
I made a mistake, and explained how I came to make it.
I acknowledged it within days and repeated it several times.
More than a month later you are still using it.
What does that say about your case Jim?

A licence was issued and revoked for some small arms ammunition, but probably none supplied.
It could have been for their Olympic shooting team for all we know.

With just that you have filled this thread with attacks on Britain while the unspeakable horrors in Homs go on without comment from you.
You have no humanity Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM

"I made a mistake, and explained how I came to make it."
Er - no you didn't - you blamed me for tricking you by lying anbout the "invented" shipment
That would be about the time I pasted up the horrific effect of the "that would be sniper bullets Jim" and you realised what an awful boo-boo you'd made by identifying them
And your gunslinger friend - I did warn you about the danger of him taking his weapon to you if you contradicted him - youre not contradicting him are you? - careful now!!
"A licence was issued and revoked for some small arms ammunition, but probably none supplied."
How do you know this - neither of you has produced any evidence to back this up - you can't even decide what the shipment was
What a pair of tossers!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 06:00 PM

Oh, and by the way
"You have no humanity Jim."
It's you who proposes to send riot control gear to assist Assad put the revolt down
Heart - tons of it, thanks for asking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 06:26 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 01:54 PM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain"
Britain has supplied no weapons to Syria.
Teribus was right.
You claim Britain has supplied small arms ammunition.
It can be obtained much cheaper from China, Russia, India, etc. so I doubt it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The confusion arose because YOU Jim kept bringing in other countries when this thread should just be about Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 06:32 PM

It's you who proposes to send riot control gear to assist Assad put the revolt down

No, I said non-lethal was preferrable to lethal.
Assad IS putting the revolt down with Russian tanks, artillery, missiles and aircraft.
Please explain why that is preferrable to water and tear gas.
Humanity Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 08:15 PM

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C
I'd piss off like Billy the Kid and Weirdie Beardie if I were you
Buty sing us a siong before you go]
Night Night
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 12 - 08:55 PM

"Please explain why that is preferrable to water and tear gas."
Only if you tell us why selling Assad weapons or equipment is in any way an alternative to selling him sniper bullets - unless you are arguing that it is necessary for Britain to sell military equipment of any sort to dictators
YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON ON THIS THREAD WHO IS PROPOSING THAT ANYBODY SHOULD SELL ANY EQUIPMENT TO SUPPRESS DEMONSTRATIONS TO SYRIA - SYRIA IS A TERRORIST REGIME - THEY SHOULD BE SOLD NOTHING WHATEVER - WHY ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THEY HAVE TO BE SOLD ANYTHING? THEY SHOULD BE SOLD NOTHING WHATEVER - THEY ARE KILLING THEIR OWN PEOPLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:03 AM

Given that Russia and China can not be stopped supplying all the deadly weapons they want, providing non-lethal can not make things worse.
Only better.
Squirt them with tear gas and water, and they will come back.
Kill them and they will not.
Humanity Jim.
Show some.

Why are you still saying Britain supplied sniper bullets?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 03:55 AM

Jim has chosen to reply by pm to my last post.

Jim, you have failed to implicate Britain in this horror.

You have succeeded in diverting the attention of this thread away from the indiscriminate massacres by Assad, aided and abetted by Russia, China and Iran, to just another smearing of Britain.

Today.
More than 8,000 people have died since anti-government protests erupted in Syria a year ago, a UN official says.

UN General Assembly President Nassir Abdulaziz al-Nasser said many women and children were among the victims.

In a separate development, a human rights group accused Syria of laying landmines along its borders with Lebanon and Turkey to stop desperate people escaping.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 04:33 AM

My reply was this - I suggest that you bow out now
I'm off
Jim Carroll

"Can I seriously suggest that you read and think think carefully about what you have just written on the Homs thread.
We know from what you have written in the past that you are a raving
racist and flag-waving nationalist.
Your last posting makes you a complete imbecile.
I really don't want any part in having done that.
Please do not bother replying to this - it will go straight in the
bin.
Jim Carroll"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 06:59 AM

Jimmie boy,

Since you object to missiles so much, how about these from your dear friends in Gaza???


http://news.yahoo.com/200-rockets-hit-israel-23-gazans-killed-return-145000964--abc-news.html


"TEL AVIV - The fourth consecutive day of violence between Israel and Palestinian militants in the coastal enclave of Gaza saw the number of rockets landing in southern Israel climb to more than 190 and the death toll of Palestinians - most of them militants - to 23.
At least 40 rockets landed in Israel today, the Israeli Defense Forces said, the closest landing around 25 miles from the country's biggest city, Tel Aviv. Another hit the city of Ashdod, which has a population of 200,000.
An 80 year-old Israeli woman was reported wounded by shrapnel in Ashdod, there have been no Israeli deaths."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 10:10 AM

Jim, this is what your friends on the far Left think of supplying non-lethal weapons.
They agree with me!

Syrian Sorrows (21 February 2012)
There is much death and pain in Syria at present. First of all the shelling of civilians. The Syrian army has been firing high explosive shells at the country's own citizens. Men, women and children are being blown apart, hit by shrapnel or buried under rubble.

We are also seeing increasing evidence of torture. 'Security' forces are not hiding this. They have recorded scores of 'trophy videos' of themselves savagely beating their captives. Young children have been among the victims. See Syria Exposed the Channel 4 program broadcast on ABC TV Four Corners on 20 February 2012.

How would a non-lethal weapons approach reduce these activities?

First of all, lethal shells would not be used in civil conflicts.

Secondly, soldiers armed with non-lethal weapons might be less acculturated to violence and less prone to torturing their fellow citizens (and one might hope – other prisoners). (We can't be certain of this, but it seems likely and would be an added benefit to a NLW approach to conflict.)
http://www.tamingwar.com/trial/

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:00 PM

Well thank you Christmas we now have it from you, by omission admittedly but:

BRITAIN SOLD NO WEAPONS TO SYRIA

That having now been admitted then we can put this downright lie to bed as well:

Syrian civilians in Homs are being slaughtered by weapons supplied by Britain to the Assad Regime.

This thread might prove to be rather beneficial to Christmas - might even cure him of lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 01:41 PM

Weirdie Beardie, Brandead and Billy the Kid - a full house I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 03:24 PM

"Jim, this is what your friends on the far Left think of supplying non-lethal weapons."
Incidentally - the Non Lethal Weapons campaign is a Quaker organisation - sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 04:04 PM

The New Internationalist?
All imbeciles?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:29 AM

You stupid - stupid man
I suggest you read beyond the thread you stumbled on
They are idealistic pacifist Christians who have suggested that democratic countries should consider replacing lethal weapons with equipment to pacify disorder - the Mormons appear to be the driving force behind the movement.
Read what they have to say, rather than grasping at straws to attempt to justify your horrific suggestion that a regime with a long record of detainment without trial and torture, now in the process of slaughtering its own people, could be sold anti-riot gear in order to supress opposition to its murderous behaviour - that is the imbecility here.
I fully understand why you, with your political outlook, should consider the Christiidealism expressed in "far Left".
To date, you and your two disgusting mates are the only ones to have backed arms sales of any sort. You, in particular, have desperately tried to censor any discussion whatever on the role Britain has played in supplying weapons to countries involved in the Arab Spring demonstrations.
We have all deplored the supply of weapons to Assad; no-one but you has suggested supplying him with anything else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:46 AM

I see nothing about any religious group.
I see links to publications like New Internationalist, and to University Peace Study Departments and movements regarded as Left Wing.
You may not agree with us that non-lethal is preferable to lethal.
That does not mean that I and all of them are "stupid, stupid" or "imbeciles."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 06:54 AM

"That does not mean that I and all of them are "stupid, stupid" or "imbeciles." "
Then you have been very selective in your looking - nothing new there.
No, it does not make them 'imbeciles'; their approach, which appears to be a "what if" one makes them naive. It also suggests a degree of ignorance as to the nature of the regime in Syria.
"We are also seeing increasing evidence of torture"
"Increasing evidence" has been available since the Amnesty report was published, so to suggest supplying non lethal weapons to such a regime is airy-fairy idealism.
You have been given that information yet you continue to defend yor appalling suggestion that such equipment could be sold - that makes you an imbecile and a supporter of war crimes by suggesting selling equipment to a regime actually in the process of slaughtering their own people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:04 AM

No it does not Jim.
I stated that non-lethal is preferable to lethal.
Disagree Jim?
I also suggested that supplying non-lethal equipment, to a regime that ALREADY HAS copious quantities of lethal weapons, and willing suppliers of more, would do no harm and might do some good.

State clearly why you disagree and why it makes me an imbecile Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:12 AM

"Disagree Jim?"
OF COURSE I ******* DO
SELLING NO WEAPONS AT ALL IS THE ONLY OPTION THAT ANY HUMANE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY CAN POSSIBLY ADOPT IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THE ALTERNATIVES ARE BEING BLOWN TO BITS BY RUSSIAN CHINESE SHELLS OR BEING TORTURED AFTER HAVING BEEN NEUTRALISED BY ANTI-RIOT EQUIPMENT

SELL THE BASTARDS NOTHING

Imbecile!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:26 AM

I think it OK to offer an alternative to lethal weapons.
You would leave them with just the deadly sort that they have so much of and are so effective with.
We disagree.

You could be wrong again Jim.
You were completely wrong about Britain supplying weapons to Syria.
Indeed, you made quite a fool of yourself about that and totally disrupted yet another thread with your arguments and personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:20 AM

"I think it OK to offer an alternative to lethal weapons."
Great - down in clear black and white at last
The Amnesty International report is of a regime that has been torturing and oppressing its people for decades - you would allow them to go on doing so by giving them the equipment to do so.
The Bunch of tossers on Question Time said - in so many words, that they would prefer the Assad regime to an alternative (devil you know...) and it is this is what will happen when/if Assad wins - Britain we re-enter normal relations with a regime headed by a war criminal.
Of course you think it ok to provide equipment to maintain the status quo in Syria - you're a friggin' fascist as your previous views have always indicated, and after all - Britain does have to make a living somehow!!
SELL THE BASTARD NOTHING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:30 AM

Non-lethal equipment does not preserve the status quo.
Killing the opposition does.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:35 AM

"sell the bastard nothing"

Ok.
GIVE the bastard an alternative to the deadly, lethal weapons he already has.
Anything to stop the slaughter and get him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM

"GIVE the bastard an alternative to the deadly, lethal weapons he already has."
You've had it and rejected it - unilateral armed intervention as happened in Libya, boycott, ostracising the bastard - and most of all, removing the right of veto from countries who have abused it China, Russia, the US, for example.
Listen to what the Arab League is saying - listen to what the Syrian opposition is asking for - it's all here.
YES - NON LETHAL WEAPONS CERTAINLY DO PRESERVE THE STATUS QUO _ THAT IS WHY THEY ARE BEING SOLD TO ARAB DESPOTS BY BRITAIN AT THIS VERY MOMENT
What the **** d you think is going to happen if Assad wins - a revenge driven bloodbath of mammoth proportions, the crushing of any possible opposition with the aid of British equipment if you have your way.
AND YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT BRITAIN BE PART OF THAT BY HELPING QUASH ANY OPPOSITION
As I said - a fascist solution, making your proclaimed sympathy for the Syrian people the mealy-mouthed bullshit that it has always been - as was your concern for all those "poor young women"
I have what I came for on this thread - the expose of a supporter of war criminals - perfick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 09:46 AM

me
I stated that non-lethal is preferable to lethal.
Disagree Jim?

you
"Disagree Jim?"
OF COURSE I ******* DO

We will not agree on this.
There is an international campaign of peace activists, (not linked to any religion) that agree with me, so not universally held to be stupid or imbecilic.
What is your opinion worth?
I think you are wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:19 AM

It is all hypothetical anyway.
Assad does not want non-lethal stuff.
He wants to crush all opposition.
Russian bullets, shells and missiles do that best.

This is just another thread drift away from the subject you so want to avoid Jim.
The horror of Homs.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:51 AM

THread drift again - you havee said all you have to say - your solution - sell him equipment to crush opposition - nothing else
Please go away and take dirty mac gunman the Weirdie with you - you're all a bunch of right wing tossers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:58 AM

sell him equipment to crush opposition

He is already crushing the opposition, in the most brutal and murderous way imaginable.
Why do you close your mind to it Jim.

No-one can stop Russia and China giving him the murder weapons.

It is as if you don't care what is actually going on while you type your abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 01:58 PM

···Please go away and take dirty mac gunman the Weirdie with you - you're all a bunch of right wing tossers
Jim Carroll
.,.,.
Is that really your idea of rational political debate and comment, Jim? For the honour & credibility of yourself and your fellow left wing - ah - individuals, don't you think you had better try and do a bit better than that?

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 04:00 PM

Ooo it's the fairy godmother!! Have you been following this Mike - I wonder how you feel about your protege's suggestion of supplying anti-riot equipment to the Syrian regime - or maybe I've misunderstood him?
"I think it OK to offer an alternative to lethal weapons."
Nope - that's what he said.
I'm afraid rationale left this discussion with Keith's 'if you oppose sending riot equipment to Syria you must be in favour of supplying them with heavy artillery
Perhaps you'd care to offer an opinion on those alternatives?
These three clowns have consistently lied and distorted what I have said, have desperately searched and failed to back up their claims, and have refused either to withdraw or apologise - and continue to lie.
I think dirty mac gunman (a reference to the self proclaimed gun nut's claim that my mother gave blow-jobs) and Weirdie (the serial liar who continues to accuse me of supporting Hamas et al), is, in the circumstances, pretty subdued.
Or perhaps it's the right-wing tossers bit you take offence to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 04:19 PM

Keith's 'if you oppose sending riot equipment to Syria you must be in favour of supplying them with heavy artillery

Jim, they already HAVE the artillery, and are using it to terrible, inhuman effect.
If only he could be persuaded to accept a non-lethal alternative is all I was suggesting.

Only hypothetical because he would not accept it even as a gift.
It is no good for crushing the opposition.
Russian lethal weapons are best for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 04:42 PM

'Or perhaps it's the right-wing tossers bit you take offence to.'
,..,

Well,not the most subtle of comments, was it?

But must confess that I haven't been following this thread with the greatest of attention: it has become too repetitive, and a bit too two-way 'yah-sucks-boo', to have held my full interest. And must confess that insult to your mother, to which you might indeed well take the utmost exception, had passed me by.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 03:42 AM

I do not find your abuse "subdued" Jim.
It did not start with the thing about your mother, and you have not been lied about.
Your copious postings on the Middle East have given a clear impression of bias against Israel and in favour of the surrounding regimes.

I have been called racist, as usual.
I am not.
Right Wing Nationalist.
No. My politics are Centre Right on a UK scale, so well to the left of most Americans.
Stupid-stupid, imbecile, brain dead and fick (sic).
Hardly objective dismantling of my arguments.
Why do you do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:55 AM

"But must confess that I haven't been following this thread"
Which is possibly why you missed:
"Except our most maniacal Marxist."
or:
"A Marxist monster"
And where were you when I was being told "And Jim HAS in the past supported the military actions of those supporting Assad: "Hezbollah; Hamas; Iran"
Maybe I was being unfair when I wrote "right wing tossers" - perhaps it should have been "ultra-right wing tossers" - my apologies.
Subtlty hasn't rated very highly in this discussion - particularly in the persistant efforts to apply censorship in order not to discuss Britain's role in supplying weapons and equipment to 'Arab Spring' states, but I did expect a little even handedness from someone I once respected and whose contributions I once looked forward to.
"and you have not been lied about."
Then you have managed to find evidence of my support for "Assad, Hezbollah; Hamas; Iran" - I look forward to seeing it.
And you continue with your support for sending riot control equipment to a regime that is quite likely to torture and murder any protestors immobilised and captured via the use of such equipment!
Please don't tell me I don't care about what is happening to the Syrian people after your having made such an obscene suggestion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 05:03 AM

Your copious postings on the Middle East have given a clear impression of bias against Israel and in favour of the surrounding regimes.
I do not regard it as obscene to suggest replacing lethal with non-lethal equipment, especially in a hypothetical context as Assad is not remotely interested in switching.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 05:06 AM

And, are your politics that distinct from Marxism?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 05:30 AM

"Your copious postings on the Middle East have given a clear impression of bias against Israel and in favour of the surrounding regimes."
So you are saying that everybody who is appalled at Israeli behaviour in Gaza automatically supports Hamas..... Did you ever serve on a British jury?
"And, are your politics that distinct from Marxism? "
You gave no idea what, if any political creed I follow, if any therefore you have invented one to cover your own lack of argument - there fore you have lied
And you continue with your riot exuipment suggestion - it doesn't matter what Assad's wants and needs are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 05:36 AM

I told you my politics.
I have speculated on yours.
How far off was I?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 06:49 AM

"I have speculated on yours."
You have not "speculated" on mine, you have openly and unequivically accused me of supporting these people - where is your evidence - you searched and failed to find it last time BECAUSE IT IS NOT THERE.
The very least you can do is admit that FACT and withdraw the accusation - it is, of course, having tried - see above - I know it is too much to expect an apology.
I have drawn my speculation of your politics directly from what you have written on this forum - "all male Pakistanis have a cultural implant" which makes them prone to pedophelia... and more recently "I think it OK to offer an alternative to lethal weapons."
Where is there any indication whatever that I am a Marxist? I won't hold my breath.
My stance on every issue we have clashed on is one of humanitarianism - my revulsion at the taking of life of innocent civilians: persucution, torture, murder, massacres, eviction, humiliation by powers that have committed what amounts to war crimes and would have been prosecuted as such if the perpetrators hadn't commanded the ifluence and support that they have.
Are you describing this revulsion as Marxism - I hadn't realised that Marx had such a huge following - there are an awful lot of people, including many members of this forum, who share that revulsion - "enemys of Israel" no doubt!
AND NOW-YOUR PROOF - without which you are proved a liar
My political views are my own business, to be shared with those I choose to share them with - your analysis of your own views certainly don't match up with some of your horrific pronouncements - want me to dig them up so we can test them one by one in the light of day?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 06:55 AM

I just remind you that you constantly pronounce on what you wrongly believe my views to be.
I doubt yours are very far from Marx, but I am only speculating.
Not accusing, as you do.
And, I do not lie Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:06 AM

You make no secret, Jim, of the fact that your views are left-wing, to the extent of denouncing those whose inclination lies in the other direction, most charmingly, as 'tossers'. Whether you incline to the teachings of Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Martov, Kollontai, Stalin, Tito, Mao, Pol Pot, or merely such as Burns & Ramsey Macdonald & Wilson & Kinnock, is somewhat beside the point. I wonder you don't think shame to deny your leftish credentials by evasively declaring them merely as a negative ~ 'not Marxist'. So that's all right then, eh?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 08:59 AM

Mike
My views on the individual subjects we have discussed on this forum are argued by me as I judge them - I hadn't realised it was necessary to declare an allegience to a political philosophy in order to do so.
Left, as you rightly point out, is a wide spectrum; can think of a dozen or so more you might have added - why on earth should I or anybody need to specify which particular one mine is - or even if I have one?
I can't recall your having done so, nor anybody else for that matter.
It seems mine is being sought here in order to provide Keith and his cohorts with another stone to throw at me rather than to answer the opposition I have offered to his obnoxious statements - "Except our most maniacal Marxist" or "A Marxist monster" beats honest argument hands down every time!!!.
Rather than indulge in one of Keith's "thread drifts" why not open a new one to discuss the rights and wrongs of Marxism and see if I bite - can't guarantee I will though.
It belittles you even further in my opinion for your McCarthyist witch-hunting - are you raelly unaware of how reminiscent of the House UnAmerican Activities Trials this is becoming? - "I declare that I am not, nor ever have been a member of the - what - Ovaltinies Club.
I incorrectly described Keith and his two abominable mates as "a full house", forgetting a full house was 4 - I now appear to have that full house.
"And, I do not lie"
"He could not allow it to expose those culpable because they are old Marxists or old Marxist mates."
A fairly specific accusation - no proof - you have lied and you continue to lie.
Jim Carroll
PS If I were a Marxist I would have no problem declaring so if I judged it relevant. I can't recall holding any views I am ashamed of and, unlike others here, I am happy to take responsibility for any contraversial ones I do hold, and not go scurrying by a politician's (non-existent) outpouring to defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 11:56 AM

He could not allow it to expose those culpable because they are old Marxists or old Marxist mates."
A fairly specific accusation - no proof - you have lied and you continue to lie.

I expressed an opinion about your motivation.
It may be right or wrong, but it is not a lie.
If I claimed to have found something on the Internet which was in fact original to you, that would be a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 02:13 PM

You have produced no evidence whatever of my "Marxism", my support for "Hamas... etc" - I could throw in your anti Semitism snideswipes from earlier threads
Without a scrap of evidence for any of these, they have to be your own inventions - out of your own head - therefore lies, plain and simple.
They would be easy enough to prove - show me the basis for you claims from what I have written.
I have said that all my contributions to this thread and similar are based on humanitarianism - show that I am lying - otherwise you are.
I do not object to your calling me a "Marxist" as such, but I do object to your using something you have no grounds for claiming as a diversion from your own viciousness (here towards the Syrian people) and to undermine my own opinions by distorting them.
I have more to say about your dishonesty on this thread, but I know you can't manage too many words at a time, so I'll leave it till later.
And now - PROOF PLEASE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 03:37 PM

I remember a thread where you claimed that I was motivated by racism.
You were wrong and I told you so, but it is not lying.
You claimed it and I refuted it.
That is an exchange of views.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:06 PM

Do you want me to ut up your 'Pakistani Perverts' statement again Keith? Stop trying to change the subject
You made at least two statements that were not true - whether you believed them to be true when you made them is immaterial - when you were challenged you desperately searched for evidence that would prove them to be true (you even lied about that - "don't worry Jim"...).
There is no evidence for those statements, yet just by refusing to withdraw them, you continue to lie which makes you a liar.
Since you have learned that they are not true you have repeated them, which makes you a serial liar.
Throughout this thread you have crudely attempted to manipulate the discussion away from the fact that Britain has sold and continues to sell weapons and equipment to similar regimes to Assad's - an attempt to stifle open discussion for your own political agenda.
I doubt if even your Fairy Godmother would attempt to defend your persistant claim that Britain's selling arms and equipment to Gadaffi is "thread drift" on a thread concerned with similar events in another 'Arab Spring' state.
All of which makes you an extremely dishonest individual.
You have compounded this by attempting to divert the thread to Palestine - not an 'Arab Spring' state, but a country at war with an extremely violent and aggressive neighbour over territory.
Which means you are attempting to prevent me from expressing my point of view by accusing me of something you are doing yourself - deliberately drifting the thread because it conflicts with your ultra-nationalistic agenda.
All of which makes you not only a liar and a bully, but also incredibly stupid for carrying out your lying and bullying on an open forum.
Sleep well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 03:38 AM

Jim dear, you are well known here to be very Left, very anti-West and very anti-Britain.
Sure enough, on joining this thread you start diverting it away from Syria, Russia and China, to an attack on Britain.

Point out the politics and you shriek "liar."
Object to the strategy and you shriek "censorship."

And of course, whenever you are losing an argument, you shriek racist.
No matter that I have never been racist or that it is irrelevant anyway.
You have done it on a dozen threads now.
Give it up.

Now, what do you think are the chances of a Security Council resolution this time?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:03 AM

Today (bbc).
In a statement, UN humanitarian chief Valerie Amos stressed the importance of "unhindered access to identify urgent needs and provide emergency care and basic supplies".

"There is no time to waste," she said.

The UN's announcement came after a coalition of 200 aid and rights groups called on Russia and China to support United Nations' attempts to end the violence in Syria.

At the political level, Russia and China have both blocked UN Security Council resolutions on Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:23 AM

This thread should have been about what should be done to help the people of Syria get rid of a murderous dictator - not the breast-eating vacuuous ullagoaning you have made it.
From the outset The British Government made it clear that they had no intention whatever taking any action to stop the Assad regime - the message from the Question Time panel was clear "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't".
The ambivilent attitude of the west towards the Middle East has always been with one eye on the oil and trade interests and it has only been when the people there decided they had had enough that any changes have been made.
Britain has sold and continues to sell weapons to the despotic regimes in the past Egypt and Libya (not forgetting the sniper bullets to Syria). A month into the Arab Spring demonstrations David Cameron hosted an arms fair aimed at selling more weapons to more dictators, declaring it was "racist" to single these Middle East dictators out as despots.
You have desperately attempted to steer this discussion away from Britain's mercenary support of these scum.
Russia and China have propped up the Syrian regime with their weapons sales but the British Government have undermined our being able to condemn those sales with their own mercenary arms sales - Saudi Arabia - Bahrain and the rest - all present customers and potential ones.
Instead of trying to fathom out my politics to use as a diversion away from our governments behaviour in all this, I suggest you come up with some of your own ideas of how to resolve what is going on all over the Middle East - so far, all you have suggested is to provide them with equipment to help keep the dictators in power and the people in their place.
The Syrian people do not want nor need our/your crocodile tears - they have said so; they have pointed out that the world has left them to fend for themselves.
Come out from behind your bloody flag, stop telling us what we can't do and say what you think should be done.
We obviously aren't going to get an answer to your lies and distortions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:37 AM

From the outset The British Government made it clear that they had no intention whatever taking any action to stop the Assad regime

05 Mar 2012
Mr Cameron continued to condemn the Syrian regime's on going violence saying,"the history of Homs is being written in the blood of its citizens."

He made three key pledges to help Syrian citizens, promising more humanitarian assistance, to hold the those responsible for "slaughter" to account and to bring about the political transition that would put a stop to the killing.

The Prime Minister said Britain was playing a leading role and had already provided an extra £2 million to aid agencies operating on the ground to help deliver emergency medical supplies and food rations for 20,000 people.

He added that Britain would this week, continue to secure a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding an end to the violence and immediate humanitarian access.

"The longer access is denied, the more the world will believe that the Syrian regime is detemined to cover up the extent of the horror brought to bear on Baba Amr," he said.


"We are working to make sure those responsible for crimes are being held to account. The European Council agreed that there must be 'a day of reckoning' for those who are responsible," he added.

Mr Cameron said and he would use "every tool we can, sanctions, aid, the pressure of diplomacy, reaching out to the oposition in Syria and beyond."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 05:21 AM

"This thread should have been about what should be done to help the people of Syria get rid of a murderous dictator"

.,.,.

As Keith originated this thread, Jim, is it not arguably a trifle impertinent of you to take it on yourself to lay down the law to him as to what it "should have been about"?

This is not any sort of 'Fairy Godmother', post btw - haven't followed the thread, as said before, closely enough to take any sort of sides - but merely an observation regarding seemliness, equity, a possible breach of etiquette...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 05:31 AM

I tried to make it about that anyway, but Jim insisted on talking about all the Arab Spring countries, even though there were threads already, and about the international arms trade with particular (VERY particular!) reference to Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 05:45 AM

""should have been about"?
Keith has made it about hand wringing sympathy for the Syrians and has bdeliberately attempted to block and practical discussion on what should be done with a constant cry of "thread drift"
Whatever reason he had for starting it, his ovivious attempts of manipulation away from Britain's rose and responsibility have been amongs the most undemocratic agenda serving I have ever witnessed on a public forum.
Once a thread it started it becomes public property t be taken wherever the participants take it providing it does not drift too far from the main subject - in this case, to suggest that the Arab Spring revolts are "off topic" is so obviously manipulative as to be te stuff of satire.
Both you and he have indulged in political witch hunting in order to mask Britain's role this affair.
I expected this from Keith, it's the way he works.
I once put you at a higher level - naive of me.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Arab Spring revolts are out-of-bounds 0- an answer would be appreciated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:03 AM

Sorry about the typos - both angry and in a hurry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:06 AM

I 'suggest' nothing, Jim. Please read my last post ~~ & the previous one about political witch hunts: a point on which you might as well be speaking Martian for all the heads-or-tails I can make of what you are on about.

"Carroll must try harder for clarity in expression"

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:19 AM

Smugness - the weapon of the educated

Another practical; suggestion - the sezure of all property of supporters of the Syrain regime - as long as it does not conflict with British business interests too much of course.
Completely in line with a letter from a Syrian posted earlier, which points out the importance Assad puts on his links with Britain.
Jim

From this morning's Times
PROPAGANDA, PROPERTY AND PRIVILEGE - THE LONDON LIFE OF ASSAD'S FIXER
President's man is free from sanctions despite allegations of arms deals,   

The publication of private e-mails from President Assad and his wife Asma has exposed the key role of a pro-regime fixer living in London.
Soulieman Marouf, a Syrian busi¬nessman with British citizenship, is a loyal supporter of the President and his brutal campaign to suppress the upris¬ing in the country, which has already claimed more than 8,000 lives. Despite his well-known links to the Assad regime, he remains immune to inter¬national sanctions.
In leaked e-mails from the Presi¬dent's office published yesterday, it was revealed that he and his wife have fed the shopping addiction of the Syrian leader's wife, ordering clothes, jewel¬lery and furniture from London's finest boutiques on her behalf.
But an investigation by The Times has found that the extent of his links with the regime, and his connections to London, go far further:
Mr Marouf is a key financial backer of two of Syria's main propaganda outlets, including a television channel accused by the West of inciting violence against civilians.
He has been accused by the Syrian opposition of buying sniper rifles on
the black market after a government attempt to purchase them from South Africa was turned down.
Sources close to Mr Marouf say he has had trouble with his UK banks; one has closed his account. He is also close friends with Mr Assad's father-in-law who lives in London, and in 2010 gave him a new BMW. His assets in Britain include a string of properties in London's most exclusive areas, worth an estimated £10 million.
Mr Marouf, his wife, their three child¬ren and his parents are living in St John's Wood, North London. While people in his home city of Aleppo, in northern Syria, are coping with fuel shortages and the fear of impending civil war, the businessman can be found most. evenings in a Mayfair restaurant, chatting with friends.
Mr Marouf was born into a wealthy Syrian family and has had links to London since, his days at University College. He has also built up intimate links with the Syrian regime, enjoying a close friendship with the President. Before the current unrest, the pair would meet regularly on Mr Marouf s country estate outside Aleppo, discuss¬ing business and politics. Their wives are said to be good friends. E-mails leaked from the President's office support this claim, revealing that Asma Assad used Mr Marouf and his wife as her London fixers to enable her to shop at London boutiques.
In June last year, three months into the uprising, Mrs Assad e-mailed Mr Marouf about a vase worth more than £2,600. She added: "Pis can Abdulia see if this available at Harrods to-order — they have a sale at the moment."
Mr Marouf, a relative of Muham¬mad Nasif, the Syrian Vice-President for security, has also been accused by opposition websites of smuggling sni¬per rifles into Syria on behalf of the regime after the failure of an official at¬tempt to buy them from South Africa.
Despite his intimate links with the Assad regime, Mr Marouf, 38, has suc¬ceeded in keeping a low profile, evad-ing successive sanctions lists imposed by the European Union and the US.
He owns at least eight apartments in London, including a flat in the exclu¬sive new Chelsea Creek development, which he bought in January. The own¬ership of the properties is disguised through a pair of offshore companies in the British Virgin Islands.
Last September, after The Times first revealed Mr, Marouf s links to the re¬gime, he transferred ownership of any remaining assets. A flat in St John's Wood was put under his sister's name.
Mr. Marouf s other business interests include Addounia television, a power¬ful pro-regime channel that has been accused of inciting violence against the civilian population and was last year , added to the EU sanctions list. He also owns Shukumaku, a Syrian news web¬site, which has blamed the unrest on "terrorists" and strenuously denied re¬ports of brutality by the Government.
His Aleppo-based company, al-Sha-hba, is an investor in Cham Holdings, a company owned by President Assad's billionaire cousin, a chief financier of the regime. Mr Marouf is named as the director of two companies registered in the UK, but sources close to him say that his companies in the UK and Syria act as a front for his activities in financ¬ing and supporting the regime.
The Times has put these allegations to Mr Marouf, but he did not respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 06:28 AM

So aren't you 'educated' then, Jim? Do you really think such an epithet a suitable term of abuse.

For shame!

~M~

... or is this being 'smug'? One never knows with J.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM

Souher Belhassen, president of the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH), said Syrians had "survived with outstanding courage one year of systematic and widespread crimes and bloodshed as the world stood by and watched".

"The international community must unite and help Syrians bring an end to the horror."

I think it is only Russia and China refusing to unite.
Jim, what "should be done" about that by Britain and others?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 01:39 PM

"For shame!"
You didn't respond to my question about Keith skulking behind thread drift
I think I preferred you before you took on the job of nodding dog to a fascist - at least you were principled (or polite) enough to try and answer difficult questions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

I am not, Jim, I am glad to say, too much influenced in my opinions and expressions by your 'preferences' ~~ if I were, I should simply be, to put it in terms not 1m miles from your own locution, merely nodding dog to a commie, wouldn't I?

The 'shame' I suggested you should feel was no way concerned with the content and opinions of your posts, but merely with your use of the word 'educated' as a term of abuse, which seems to me unworthy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 03:14 PM

"Commie"
He's trained you well
And the question?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 03:25 PM

Keith skulking behind thread drift

Thread drift is not an instrument I could use to stifle debate.

I expressed the opinion that we should stick to the subject of Syria, as other threads already exist on Arab Spring, and the scale of the horrors in Syria are unique and unprecedented for decades.

Was it wrong of me to express that opinion?
Would you deny me the right if you had the power?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 12 - 04:07 PM

Or if that particular question is too difficult-
I believe Keith to be a fascist because:
a   He has made openly racist statements on this forum
b   His defence of Britain's record of selling arms to oppressive regimes is simply that it is "anti British to do so.
c   His single proposal on his own thread on Syria is to sell the Syrian regime equipment to suppress opposition to their rule

d   His bullying behaviour in attempting to silence lines of questioning he is uncomfortable with is thuggishly undemocratic.
Which of these are not true?
Now what have I written that makes me a "commie"?
"Thread drift
The only active thread on The Arab Spring is this one - the Syrian protests are a part of the Arab Spring - say they are not.
To actively attempt to suppress comment on the Arab Spring in general is censorship, pure and simple - and very much a part of your fascist outlook - you are the only one on this forum to have used "thread drift" in this way ad to this extent
If "thread drift" is so important to you, why have you consistently demanded that we discuss Palestine - not Syria and not part of the Arab Spring revolt - a million miles away from the topic in hand?
You are denying me the right that you have given yourself
You are not "expressing an opinion" - you are actively attempting to suppress a directly relevant line of discussion because it clashes with your ultra-nationalist agenda
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SUPPRESS DISCUSSION THAT IS DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO THE SUBJECT IN HAND, NO MATTER HOW UNCOMFORTABLE IT MAKES YOU.
YOU HAVE USED THE SAME TACTIC ON OTHER THREADS AND YOU HAVE BEEN CONSISTENTLTY TOLD NOT TO INTERFERE WITH THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS TO EXPRESS AN OPINION.
It appears that even your lap-dog is somewhat uncomfortable with your behaviour - hence his 'silence that speaks volumes'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 02:00 AM

Jim: To spell it out. You use "fascist" in the extremely loose and vulgar way lefties commonly do: as an emotionally loaded epithet to denounce any whose views are to the right of their own; for the reinforcement of which they pretend to find pronouncements of a racist or intolerant or persecutive nature even if, as in this instance, no such are there ~~ we have been over & over Keith's "I now find..." all that time ago and disagree as to its intention or significance; no point beating it to death any further.

The right-wing use of 'commie' is the analogue to the lefty one of 'fascist': I didn't actually use it, but only included it it in an adverbial clause of condiditon {"if ... then"} ~~ a conditional expressing a putative, not an outright statement.

So, in sum, you have erroneously called K a 'fascist'; I have not called you an anything, but simply expressed a conditional.

Geddit now? I don't expect so; but I honestly can't be bothered to pursue this petty niggle any further.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 03:01 AM

d   His bullying behaviour in attempting to silence lines of questioning

Desperation Jim!
I asked that the thread I started about the unique horror of Syria should stay on that important subject.
There was nothing to prevent you discussing other countries elsewhere.
No "bullying."
No "censorship."

Why was it SO important for you to change the subject?
Because it exposes the guilt of China and Russia, but gives little scope for attacking Britain.
IT WAS YOU TRYING TO STIFLE A DEBATE, and for political reasons.
No compassion for the suffering from the Hard Left.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 03:16 AM

It appears that even your lap-dog is somewhat uncomfortable with your behaviour

MtheGM had nothing to gain from objecting to your nasty behaviour, except the guarantee of some vile abuse from you.
He makes Mudcat a better place.
You spoil it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:36 AM

Mike
Racism (racial stereotyping) is a part of the facism I have encountered throughout my life - we have been over Keith's particular brand again and again - for you, it seems that racism is only racist when applied to Jews, but not to Muslims - which makes your attitude.... we've been over that too.
His attempts to suppress discussion in certain areas that would leave Britain in a bad light - nationalism - are also a part of the facism I have witnessed; open any BNP site - it's there in bucketfulls.
There is nothing "loose" about these, and they are alive and kicking in Keith's arguments and have been discussed over and over, without any defence being put up on his part (except his somewhat bizarre blaming of somebody else for the statements he has made - how would you react I wonder, if somebody said "I only believe it because Mosely, or Jean Marie LePen, or David Irving told me it was true, and they have studied the subject" - the sum total of Keith's defence of his attitude to British Pakistanis)?
Keith's (in my opinion, ultra) nationalism is present throughout this and numerous other threads - again, nothing "vague" about them.
The fact that he is still attempting to suppress any discussion on the Arab Spring as a whole is evidence enough of his attempts at nationalistic censorship - nothing "vague" about that - it is present two postings away.
I have asked your opinion of this, you decline to give it which is an answer in itself as far as I'm concerned.
Keith,
You fail to address one single point on your behaviour on this thread, either to justify your persistant and continuing bulying and extremely ham-fisted accusations of "thread drift" or an explanation of your own thread drift - which I have not complained about btw.
Until you address both, they will stand as manipulative bullying and breathtaking double standards).
You (and Mike) also fail to produce one scrap of evidence of my "hard leftism"; just as you have failed to produce one scrap of evidence of my supposed support for Hamas.... et al. Until you do, both will remain the empty rhetoric they have always been.
You have also failed to comment on the suggestion that the British Government should seize the properties of supporters of Syria such as Soulieman Marouf - not worth the effort maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:47 AM

You fail to address one single point on your behaviour on this thread, either to justify your persistant and continuing bulying and extremely ham-fisted accusations of "thread drift" or an explanation of your own thread drift

My "behaviour" was just to request the thread I started about Syria be allowed to stay on that important subject.
No bullying or censorship, and I just answered that point anyway.

My "own thread drift."
I think you accuse me of making comparisons with Palestine, but YOU referred to it in your second post here.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:31 AM

That was in passing and was in terms of your support for the butchering of civilians
You have persisted your demands to discuss my attitude to Palestine, as have your two grotesque mates.
That is deleiberate and persistant attempt at thread drift, having nothing to do with this topic
I have not complained about your thread drift - you have invented mine
The Arab Spring revolt, the arming of terrorist states, the UN intervention in Libya.... all are legitimate aspects of this discussion on Syria, yet you have desperately tried to censor them because they expose Britain's part in atrming killers (including the supplying of ammuntion in Syria)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:44 AM

Anti-Islamism is not racism. Objecting to organised gangs of young Pakistanis exploiting underage girls [another case currently being sentenced!] is not racism ~~ it is denounced by their own community and religious leaders. I express, & have expressed, no prejudice against Islam in general;and do not understand your ref to Jews, as my disappointment (& worse) as to the way Israel has developed and is continuing to behave has been expressed many times; apart from which I have no particular interest in Judaism, a faith & community from which I defected long since. {To remind you, atheism has been my default position since early teens, tho I did become a baptised & confirmed member of the CofE and was for some time a fully communicant member of my local church in middle-age to see if it would bring me any sort of emotional or spiritual satisfaction; but, as Valerie put it, it didn't take, & I have been back in my default atheism for some 30+ years now}. I detest any sort of discrimination on merely racial grounds; but despise those, like you, Jim, & others, whose self-righteous, 'doth·protest·too·much', anti-racism is so ingrained as to blind you & them to the realities of what is happening in, e.g. militant Islamism and Pakistant sexual exploitation of white 14 y-o's.

In the so-useful words of that lawyer in the Shaw play, "You think it doesn't but it does."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 05:46 AM

& re your post cross-posted with mine ~~ if I am one of the '2 mates' refd, I have not mentioned Palestine in any context whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:24 AM

In fact, Jim, it occurs to me that your accusing me of objecting only to discrimination against Jews, when I have never expressed any such opinion but its very opposite, must be motivated, perhaps subconsciously, purely by your knowledge of my ancestry; which it seems to me constitutes an instance of instinctual anti-semitism on your part. Think about it!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

"In fact, Jim, it occurs to me that your accusing me of objecting only to discrimination against Jews,"
You answered a direct question as to whether you would find a statement similar to Keiths but aimed at Jews racist by replying, quite rightly, that you would - plough through the 'Muslim prejudice' thread if you doubt this - double standards, at the very least - selective racism.....?
"if I am one of the '2 mates' "
You are not - I was referring to Terrytoon and Weirdie Beardie - another bit you appear to have missed.
"Anti-Islamism is not racism"
Describing "all British male Pakistainis" as being prone to paedophelia becase of a "cultural implant" is - and it implicates every single male Pakistani in Britan - I don't believe even the BNP went that far - but could be wrong.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:09 AM

It has to come up whenever you are losing an argument Jim.
I never said any such thing.

If you must rake it up for the umpteenth time, actually quote both sentences of the post, and the list referred to in the first sentence.

You have persisted your demands to discuss my attitude to Palestine
It appears that your posting history must not be mentioned, but mine is always fair game.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 08:06 AM

I have stopped contributing to the Young Creationist thread because that woman Iona who has monopolised it is too stupid to be argued with. Jim is fast getting to the same stage of pig-headed assertiveness in this thread and those of similar bent. I love the bit in Sense & Sensibility [Jane Austen, like Shax, usually has something pertinent to quote] where Elinor refrains from arguing with Mr Robert Ferrars, 'not considering him to deserve the compliment of rational opposition'. That's how I am coming to feel about Jim Carroll.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 09:09 AM

Mike
I am aware of our arguments having dominated far too many threads.
Racism is an important issue for me, both personally and as a general part of my upbringing
There are a number of racists/fascists on this forum – some of us are feeling the affect of them at the present time.
If Keith had been just another of the maggots I would have made my comments and moved on – He is an obsessive who persists in having the last word – he paints himself into corners as he has here, and he will then attempt to lie his way out of his own stupidity – as he did on the Muslim prejudice thread (by inventing a politician who he claims to have backed him, then failing to produce an example of that backing).
I encountered racism virtually every day of my working life in London, but let it go for the sake of a quiet life – I'm no longer prepared to do that as much as I have tried.
I realise that to be an obsession in itself; not sure I can do anything about it - put it down to old age.
Keith – nobody is winning or losing here – we've managed to drive everybody away again.
You have made no suggestion on Syria except to suggest a plan to assist the regime to further their aims of crushing opposition to their terror.
You have continued to ignore or dismiss the suggestions that have been made and have persistently attempted to suppress the making of those suggestions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 11:28 AM

as he did on the Muslim prejudice thread (by inventing a politician who he claims to have backed him, then failing to produce an example of that backing
Which politician did I invent?
The MP, the former Cabinet Minister, or the House of Lords member.
No. I extensively quoted all of those.
Was it any of these?

Police officers who say there is a specific problem in certain areas.
Sikhs who say they have a specific problem.
Hindus who say they have a specific problem.
Investigative journalists who have found a specific problem.
MPs whose constituents report a specific problem.
A specific problem in Blackburn that vanished after a targeted intervention.
Shafiq who had personal experience of this specific problem.
Ahmed who had personal experience of this specific problem.
Allibhai-Brown who had personal experience of this specific problem.
Wilmer, who's 400 cases were all of this specific problem.
Dando Institute whose investigations found overwhelmingly this same problem.
CEOP whose national figures showed the same problem.

Last time you made up accusations about this we agreed to do it on pm to spare others your made up deluded drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 12:43 PM

Jim: You have addressed the following two comments personally to me on recent posts:

A -- for you, it seems that racism is only racist when applied to Jews, but not to Muslims - which makes your attitude....


B -- You answered a direct question as to whether you would find a statement similar to Keiths but aimed at Jews racist by replying, quite rightly, that you would - plough through the 'Muslim prejudice' thread if you doubt this

B was supposed to be a justification for A ~ which I regard as an inaccurate, spiteful and defamatory remark, and challenged as such. I fail absolutely to see that B was in any way an answer to, or justifcation for, A: for which I hope you will at least have the grace to apologise.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 01:20 PM

"-- for you, it seems that racism is only racist when applied to Jews, but not to Muslims - which makes your attitude...."
On the ocassion I referred to IT WAS APPPLIED ONLY TO JEWS - You having already stated that a similar remark aimed at Pakistanis by Keith was "not racist".
My comments were neither inaccurate, spiteful nor defamatory - they were exactly how you responded to my question.
"I extensively quoted all of those."
None of your 'examples' came anywhere near implicating "all Male Pakistanis"
Had they done so publicly they would have been breaking the law and would have been removed from the political arena as was Enoch Powell when anti-racist laws were far less stringent than they are today -such staements,made publicly - are against the law and lay the culprits open to prosecution . Any vague reference to culture was based on small numbers in isolated areas - you indicted the whole culture.
You failed to produce a single quote when repeatedly requested to do so, and I have no doubt whatever that you will not do so now - I could be wrong, of course - feel free!!
And - as I have pointed out on numerous occasions, it doesn't matter who made the statement (on this occasion, you alone) to stereotype a whole culture in such a way is racist, whoever does it; to proclaim it as your belief is to expose yourself as a racist, which is what all this is about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 01:46 PM

None of your 'examples' came anywhere near implicating "all Male Pakistanis"
I have told you many times and in many threads and pms where that came from.
I will pm you again, in the full knowledge that you will still repeat the same lies every time you make a twat of yourself in a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 02:27 PM

Christmas, you enterded this thread on the back of a lie, you were caught out and called to account fot it - you have been wriggling ever since

400 Up.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 02:35 PM

You have now PMd me to say that you never made such a statement - been there, done that
Ditto to terrytoon
Britain sold Syria (according to you and Keith) sniper bullets - are you now claiming these were illumination flares or weedkiller perhaps?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 03:54 PM

I have told you many times now that there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that sniper rounds were ever requested, licenced or supplied.
Why do you make such a twat of yourself be reiterating it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:19 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM

There is no reason, that I am aware of, to believe they were sniper bullets.
If you have any evidence, show us.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Still waiting Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:19 PM

"I have told you many times now that there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that sniper rounds were ever requested, licenced or supplied" But you and Dirty Mac Danny said they were sniper rounds - care to give us another version of what they were - pop-gun corks maybe.
I remind you, after having presented them as being merely sniper rounds, you changed your mind when it was pointed out to the carnage that snipers were causing in Homs - a brief reminder http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-28/middleeast/world_meast_syria-homs-scene_1_snipers-syrian-city-arab-league?_s=PM:MIDDLEEAST
Your change of heart leaves one to suspect that it is not unconnected with your magnificent foot-in-mouth in attempting to pass of sniper rounds and relatively unimportant, just as Dirty Mac Danny's wavering has something to do with his "only £30,000 worth" - making your present protestations a little suspect, don't you agree?
If you are going to continue this farce perhaps you might indicate which particular explanation you are now accepting - that Britain sold nothing to Syria, that they sold small arms amunition and they were harmless because (they wouldn't fit their weapons, they weren't lethal enough to worry about), that they didn't sell them enough to do any damge, that it was so long ago that it didn't matter, that they were licenced but never delivered - then back to, they Britain didn't sell anything to Syria - you've used them all at one time or another.
Don't you think this would make a wonderful children't game, sort of like 'The Bog Down in the Valley-o'
If you have any evidence (look it up in the dictionary if you're not sure what "evidence" means) that the licences were recinded or any othr reason that the (documented) order was not fulfilled, please supply the reference.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:25 PM

We have both told you endlessly that no sniper rounds were supplied.
You say they were, but site us as evidence for it!
Madness.
Do you have any evidence for sniper rounds, because no-one else has.
If you have lets have it Jim.
Now please.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:25 PM

Cross posted - would welcome an explanation.
I have no reason whatever to produce any more evidence than I alerady have - that the order was registered and licenced (a war crime enough in itself IMO, considering the horrific torture/murder/imprisonment record of the Syrian regime)
As far as the fulfilment of that order, it is entirely up to you to prove that it wasn't delivered
Waiting Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:30 PM

Waiting for what Jim?
I have no idea what you are claiming/not claiming now.
I suggest you stop drinking, go to bed, and start again tomorrow when you are rational again.
(Again?)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:32 PM

A further reminder
"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim."
and
"Guess what "Jim Lad" - Snipers have to practice - they do rather a lot of it."
Have a nice evening - music calls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:44 AM

My post is a weeks old mistake.
I thought we were talking about Libya. You brought in so many countries such a confusion is understandable.
I corrected it at the time, and again every time you cited it as evidence.
Britain did not supply rifles to Syria.
Britain did not supply ammunition for the non-existent rifles.


What Teribus said is true, but does not mean Britain supplied sniper rounds to anyone does it Jim?

There is no evidence for British sniper rounds.
You have been citing us as evidence in the knowledge that we deny it.
You have no other evidence.
Why do you keep on?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM

Beyond mentioning and quoting a newspaper article you have produced no "evidence" whatsoever.

Do you faithfully believe everything you read in the Daily Mail Christmas - or just the bits you can use to feed your bias and bigotry?

Please quote where I have stated they were "sniper bullets/sniper rounds" - I think I can go back through my posts to this thread and find that I stated the exact opposite - i.e. stating that the 7.62 x 51mm is standard NATO ammunition that can be fired by the Steyr, but the Russian 7.62 x 54mm is a round specifically loaded for use in their sniper rifles.

Your contention was that British supplied weapons were slaughtering civilians in Homs - The inference you were hoping to get across was that the British Government had supplied weapons that the Assad regime was using on its own people and that the British Government were fully aware of this.

After digging around it has been shown quite conclusively that:

1: The British Government has sold no weapons to Syria
2: That the 154 export licences issued by the British Government for anything being exported to Syria were all revoked in line with EU rules
3: There are no records of sale or delivery of the ammunition mentioned in your Daily Mail article
4: It was pointed out that the only type of ammunition that Syria could use fitted one type of rifle and the sale (If it ever took place) was for a tiny amount of ammunition and it pre-dated the Arab Spring type demonstrations in Syria by two years.

So all in all Christmas your deliberate falsehood was examined and found wanting on just about every level going. Rather than admitting to making a mistake, an act which appears to be beyond your integrity, and clarifying your position, you dug your heels in attempted to defend the impossible (in which exercise you failed) and started throwing insults about and then complained when they were hurled back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:55 AM

"Never apologise: never explain" would appear to be Carroll's watchword ~~ see my exchange with him 17 Mar, 0544am - 0120pm.

As I said above, quoting Jane Austen, there are those who 'do not deserve the compliment of rational opposition'. 17 mar 0806am.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:57 AM

"I thought we were talking about Libya"
Oh come onnnnn - not another version - haven't you got a friend that could help you out here
You are lying again Keith and this one has taken you weeks to come up with.
Please go away before you disgrace yourself further.
"Do you faithfully believe everything you read in the Daily Mail Christmas "
Now you're rejecting the contents of your own right wing rag - not right enough for you I suppose - maybe something for you in the BP press.
The sale was included in an official list produced by the Guardian and put up here (forged, I suppose)
If you have any evidence whatever that the sale was revoked, please let's have a look at it - you have ignored all requests to do so so far.
And your acceptance of sniper bullets - plain enough when you claimed that they were "only" used for practice "they do rather a lot of it"
Any "information" you put up her should be accompanied by the appropriate evidence as, like Keith, you lie.
Anything to say to my mother before you go? No - she will be disappointed.
I'd stick to your fantasies, your drinking/shooting mates and your penis substitute if I were you
Have a nice one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:01 AM

"Never apologise: never explain" would appear to be Carroll's watchword"
As you have apologised for your pathetic "Jew Baiting" accusation and answered the questions you have been asked here
I honestly believe you would have a few months ago
You appear to have found your level in your present company - one dinner party you didn't take a long enough spoon to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:16 AM

Mike
These clowns, with their ham-fisted lying, their support for slaughter and their blustering emptiness make me sick - you just make me sad.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:23 AM

You are lying again Keith and this one has taken you weeks to come up with.

Do you really believe I have secret knowledge of ammunition sales not available to anyone else?
REALLY?
I have no evidence of sniper rounds being sold to anyone.
To call me a liar for stating that obvious FACT is laughable.
YOU are laughable.
This thread has exposed you as a fool.
A Hard Left, uncaring, lying fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:33 AM

Sorry to have saddened you, Jim. Honestly not my intention. I just do genuinely believe that you have misread &/or mis- or overinterpreted various things that have been said; and have now mulishly dug in your heels and refused even to consider whether this might indeed be the case: which makes me sad in my turn.

I have on wish to quarrel with you. Although we have never actually met, we have many shared acquaintance and recollections over the early Revival days, and as you know I much respect the work you did with Ewan & Peggy & the Critics, and get the impression that you have some respect for my critical response. We should be able to find some mutual tolerance over basic political differences ~ that is what living in a democracy means, surely? and I think it wrong to be 'saddened' by someone having different opinions.

I really regret the fact that we have fallen out over this matter. But I cannot honestly purport to agree with you when I truly think that you have got it wrong on this occasion.

Best wishes anyhow
~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:43 AM

"But I cannot honestly purport to agree with you when I truly think that you have got it wrong on this occasion."
Sorry Mike - stay with the company you seem to have chosen and you become indistinguishable from them eventually.
Keith is a lying idiot with racist overtones, the gunman is a foul-mouthed thug - you always struck me better than that.
You might have tried answering the question I asked about Keith's attempts at censorship, but it seems to have gone further than that now.
If I have misinterpreted what you have said, please point it out; you didn't respond to my final summing up of what I believe to be your double standards.
I have attempted to answer every single point on this thread; I evaded nothing, I distorted nothing, I don't fake my cut-n-pastes and I don't change my course on what my opinion is every five minutes to suit the fact that I have been caught out in a lie.
Whatever my politics are, my argument on these threads have been purely a humanitarian approach and none of you have been able to point out anything different.
My personal philosophy did not merit the witch hunt.
I suggest you read through Keith and Terminus's threads and ask whether that is really where you believe yourself to be.
Personally, I'd rather remember you when I enjoyed what you had to say and the way you said it, even if I didn't agree with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:09 AM

"you didn't respond to my final summing up of what I believe to be your double standards."
.,,.
Not sure which particular post you ref here, Jim. Could you give a date-time identifier, please?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:20 AM

Mike
17 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM
Off to try and cut the grass (last cut in September thanks to Irish weather)
Not deliberately avoiding any responses to care to make
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:27 AM

Not very clearly specified at that post, Jim. You appear simply to have refd me back to something on a v old thread. As I see it, you accused me of being selective in my anti-racism ~ of only being anti-racist when Jews are concerned. I refuted that accusation, pointing out the posts I had contributed objecting to Israeli policies; and reiterating that I was opposed to all racism, but that this did not blind me to the faults of certain demographics, such as sexually exploitative young Paksitanis, or oppressive mid-eastern regimes with loathsome criminal codes like Saudi [& I might have added, going back in history a bit, that of Idi Amin]. My point was that objecting to the activities of such is not racist merely because they belong to a different ethnicity from my own; and it seemed to me that this latter fact tends to blind you to their malpractices, and lead you to accuse those of us who are trying to express objections to such attitudes and activities on their part of racism, simply because of their ethnicity. It is my opinion that it is you who have provided no satisfactory response to this point - although you did, oddly, express some support on a thread I once OP'd on Accusations of Racism being used as a Shield against Criticism. I can otoh find no point you have made against me, or any question you have put to me, to which I have failed to furnish a reasoned response.

Ball in your court.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:42 AM

Sorry Mike
Going round in circles - one more try and I'm gone.
Keith appealed to you following his 'All male Pakistanis' statement.
You said you saw nothing racist in what he said
I asked whether you would consider a similar statement made about Jews (gave example)
You said you would find it racist.
Can't be bothered wading though Keith's stomach-heaving marathon again and can't be more specific than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 10:33 AM

Point I made then, and make again now, is that "Pakistani" does not = "Muslim"; there is a separate culture among Pakistani male youths. Had he made the statement about all Muslims, or even all Pakistanis [I took it as implied by the context that it was only that youth segment subscribing to those particular social influences which were the subject of the ongoing discussion who were being ref'd], then of course I should have considered it racist. If the statement, therefore, had been made about all Jews, or all Martians of bug-eyed monsters or whatever, then, as I said...

That surely can't be interpreted that I can only see racism where Jews are at the end of it ... can't really see by what anfractuous ways you could have come to that conclusion.

Cross-purposes somewhere, I suspect.

Still, I take your point, and accept my statement [& his] were expressed with insufficient clarity such as to lay open to misinterpretation. Much water has flowed under the bridge since then. Now, coming back to this thread...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:45 PM

Bit convoluted for me.
I think you are agreeing that claiming "All male Pakistanis have a cultural implant" which makes them predisposed to having sex with underage girls is racist? - do I have that right?
If so, I will check where I misunderstood you and will apologise if I have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:53 PM

Jim,
my argument on these threads have been purely a humanitarian approach and none of you have been able to point out anything different.
Your argument on this thread has NOT been purely humanitarian.
Indeed, you contemptuously dismissed expressions of humanity as "hand-wringing sympathy."
I have been moved to comment on your LACK of humanity on occasions.

Your argument on this thread has been purely to implicate Britain and to deflect blame from Russia and China.
You did dwell on the sufferings of sniper victims, but only because you thought you could frame Britain for complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:10 PM

"expressions of humanity"
Your "expressions of humanity" have been little more than a charade, summed up perfectly by your proposal to arm Assad with the equipment to suppress demonstrations
The Syrian people have pointed out that they don't need sympathy, but practical support, yet you have opposed any suggestion of such and have failed to come up with one single suggestion of your own.
You have backed wholeheartedly the British Government's decision to take no practical steps to assist the Syrians because of their suspicion of what might follow Assad's regime
You have consistently attempted to suppress any discussion on Britain's role in providing equipment and weapons to the Arab Spring States to the extent of denying the existence of an order for (identified by you) sniper bullets).
You have not commented once on Britain's continuing arms sales to despotic States a month after the protests started
Don't you dare suggest that I lack humanity when your display here has been an utter cynical disgrace.
Your performance here has been appalling and so crassly executed as to be easily recognised as such.
Excuse me if I don't join you in your usual display of crocodile tears
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:01 PM

Jim: Whether or not we agree as to the interpretation to be put on the intended referent of the "male Pakistanis" statement, which it appears we don't (and I must admit to a certain unease about that "All", Keith) ~~ I still do not think you have demonstrated any justification in anything I might have said at any time, for your assertion that I can only perceive racism when Jews are concerned. That is not the case. I think I have demonstrated that it is far from the case. And it is for that that I should expect you to have the grace to apologise.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM

Yep - I'm a bit "uneasy" about racism; in fact I think the word praises it with faint damns
Can't for the life of me see what intrpretation other than racist stereotyping.
Will think about an apology - thought about it - sorry, no can do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:24 PM

Sorry, meant to add;
Especially as I bore the brunt of your vicious "Jew baiter" jibes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 05:13 PM

MtheGM,
There were but 3 sentences in that post.
The first sentence stated that no-one on the thread, least of all me, claimed that
" Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing."

The people who gave the explanation did blame culture, which I assumed "all" are exposed to, but in the second sentence I stated,"
but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:15 PM

Jim ~ That long-ago exchange on the BS:Palestine & BS:Palestine(continuation) threads did neither of us any credit: consisting of counter-insults & accusations subsequently withdrawn & apologised for, & ending thus

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:47 PM
Ho-hum, Jim. Have it your own way. I thought I withdrew it when you said, did we have to go on in this schoolyard name-calling fashion? ~~ an appeal which I now repeat. Why don't we just stop it, eh? I am really not a racist, you know _ out'n'out or common-or-garden. Don't expect you're really a whatever it was either. It's all part of what I am beginning to recognise as the Curse Of Mudcat ~ a lovely site when it just does what it sez on the tin, but peculiarly prone for some reason to induce an antagonistic abusive vituperative invectively contentious mindset which carries one away into saying more than one meant; & then: BOOM!
I just don't have the energy for all this much animus these days...
Pax ~ fanites ~ cruze ~ ·····
~M~

Subject: RE: Palestine (continuation)
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:42 AM
Pax Mike - life is too short
Jim Carroll

So I am distressed to find you raking it all up again to have another sulk.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:25 AM

I am criticised for not having any solutions to the crisis in Syria.
That puts me in good company with the world's greatest statesmen and leaders!
I do not favour a military intervention.
I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls.

I started the thread to express horror at the indiscriminate attacks on civilians (hand=wringing sympathy according to the Hard Left), and anger that all attempts to secure a Security Council resolution were being blocked by Russia and China who also continued to arm the regime.
The Hard Left seemed not to share in that anger, reserving it all for Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:16 AM

Mike
Your hysterical accusations of "Jew baiting", which you dismiss as old argument or " whatever it was" are fairly fundamental to me, they are what really started all this and haven't gone away.
Your wishy washy shuffling around Keith's continuing racism is evidence of your double standards and doesn't hack it - I suppose we'll have to learn to live with it.
Keith:
Your "All Pakistanis" was just that - YOURS - nobody else made the claim, otherwise you would (gleefully) have produced it to humiliate me.
It continues to be your stance; maybe you want me to produce your "culture is all" pms where you continue to suggest that Pakistanis are culturally flawed?
As you say Mike, back to the subject in hand.
Keith has persistently attempted to close down any attempts to discuss Britain's role and responsibility in what is happening in the Middle East by making it out-of-bounds, thus making anything that is said here little more than the meaningless breast-beating he specialises in.
The only possible influence we can have in these events is to galvanise our governments (Ireland included) into some sort of positive action (which it has rejected throughout this affair, for political rather than practical reasons)
Suggestions have been made about short term action - (all rejected by the trio - no, not you Mike), with nothing put in its place other than more vacuous breast beating.
The openly carried out massacres have exposed the Assad regime as war criminals, yet the Assad family's gofer, Soulieman Marouf can operate with immunity in Britain and "His assets in Britain include a string of properties in London's most exclusive areas, worth an estimated £10 million."
A letter to The Times (put up above) from a Syrian exile points out how important Assad regards his links with Britain; seizing Marouf's assets would would be little enough, but it would be a step in the right direction - it certainly beats supplying the bastards with anti-riot gear.
In the long run, Britain's, and others' part in the arms trade has to be a major factor in the outcome of all this. Arming governments that are "not democratic and have bad human rights records" - (Vince Cable, current Business Secretary in the Cameron government) has been a contribution to the slaughter, in Britain's case, in Libya, and in the future, possibly in Bahrain. Another contribution would be to pass off criticism of our arms sales policy as "anti-British".
One thing that has to come out of all this as far as we are concerned is an ethical arms trade (if such a strange creature could exist).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:27 AM

"I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
You cannot stand by and watch thousands being slaughtered because you might not like what will replace the regime doing the slaughtering.
The Syrian people feel they have been abandoned, and they have.
By doing nothing we push Syria into the arms of the fundamentalists.
The alternative is that things will go on as they have been in Syria for decades, when the Assad family tortured, murdered and imprisoned and the world said nothing.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/country-profile/middle-east-north-africa/syria/?profile=tradeInvestment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:28 AM

Your "All Pakistanis" was just that - YOURS

No.
It was about why there was a particular issue with some British Pakistanis.
A reasom was suggested, but NOT BY ME.
To produce an explanation you would need knowledge.
I have none.

The suggested reason was that the culture gave rise to the behaviour.
Are not ALL within a culture affected by that culture.
That was my assumption.
We could debate that.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:39 AM

By doing nothing we push Syria into the arms of the fundamentalists.

Something we can agree on, but will you acknowledge the efforts being made by Britain and others?
Reminder.
05 Mar 2012
Mr Cameron continued to condemn the Syrian regime's on going violence saying,"the history of Homs is being written in the blood of its citizens."

He made three key pledges to help Syrian citizens, promising more humanitarian assistance, to hold the those responsible for "slaughter" to account and to bring about the political transition that would put a stop to the killing.

The Prime Minister said Britain was playing a leading role and had already provided an extra £2 million to aid agencies operating on the ground to help deliver emergency medical supplies and food rations for 20,000 people.

He added that Britain would this week, continue to secure a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding an end to the violence and immediate humanitarian access.

"The longer access is denied, the more the world will believe that the Syrian regime is detemined to cover up the extent of the horror brought to bear on Baba Amr," he said.


"We are working to make sure those responsible for crimes are being held to account. The European Council agreed that there must be 'a day of reckoning' for those who are responsible," he added.

Mr Cameron said and he would use "every tool we can, sanctions, aid, the pressure of diplomacy, reaching out to the oposition in Syria and beyond."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:15 AM

NO I will not - while nothing practical is being done it is the same mealy mouthed bullshit you have been spouting since the beginning of this thread.
You put it in a nutshell for you and the government (as was made clear by the Question Time panel - Assad is ok as long as he stops killing people in public.
Why not quit the stomach-heaving hypocricy and let Assad get on with the job of putting down these menaces - maybe send him some riot control gear so he can speed things up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:22 AM

Because he does not want it.
He prefers the effect of Russian bullets and shells.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 06:49 AM

Oh, dear, Jim. I suppose I shall have to remind you, that you persisted in using the words Holocaust & Nazi in connection with Israel, despite its being pointed out to you, by others as well as me, that these were peculiarly, nay uniquely, offensive words, for which you could easily have found substitute synonyms, within this particular context: and your persistence in these locutions, as we pointed out, was clearly intended to offend and insult. And what else does the verb 'to bait' in such a context mean, other than persistently to offend and insult and provoke?

I wanted to drop it. You have declined to do so, because "Your hysterical accusations of "Jew baiting", which you dismiss as old argument or " whatever it was" are fairly fundamental to me, they are what really started all this and haven't gone away".

Ah diddums. In the light of the above, what other descriptor would you have preferred for your campaign of deliberate insult and provocation in your pertinacioust "Holocaust"s and "Nazi"s? "Baiting" just happens to have been what you were doing ~ just like those dogs at the bull or the bear in the ancient sport. What else do you think you were doing, if not deliberately and incessantly 'baiting'?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:19 AM

"Holocaust & Nazi in connection with Israel"
Which is in no way anti Semitic, as you would have it. It was a description of how many people see the behaviour of the Zionists who now call the tune in Israel, the only difference being, as was pointed out at the time, that there was/is no comparison in terms of scale, and none was suggested.
The Israeli soldiers who billeted with a Palestinian family who fed them and gave them blankets and rewarded the hospitality by shitting in all the cooking utensils, or thesoldiers on checkpoint who searched a man who claimed to be a violinist and forced him to play while they stood by and jeered (and were filmed doing so) surely rang ucomfortable bells for you, as it did for me (and many Israelis who protested at the time and made the same comparisons)
"Ah diddums."
Wonder if you'd make as light of it and refused to recognise as an insult my referring to you as a raging goose-stepper.
Piss off with your double standards Mike
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

I don't goose-step.

You do bait.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:47 AM

Well thre we go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

Just for info of any who might read this:

The forcing to dance atrocity was it would appear, learned from Nazi practice in occupied Europe; it was often a game to make the rabbi dance.
However ~ The shitting in cooking utensils, homes, &c, was learnt, I regret to say, from the British Mandate forces in pre-Israel Palestine. I know, from a former kibbutznik friend of my parents who stayed with us in London during my teens, that it was what British soldiers would routinely do, together with the use of bedroom floors as latrines and personal clothing as arse-wipes, during raids on kibbutzim supposedly in search of Irgun & SternGang terorists.

Neither of these practices was in any way defensible; another thing to add to the present Israeli shame. But 'credit' where due, eh?

Just thought some here might find this of some interest. Not, of course, old mind·made·up·don't·confuse·with·facts Carroll.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:35 AM

"But 'credit' where due, eh?"
All designed to establish a racial or cultural 'superiority' over the victim - and your point is?
Don't tell your protege Keith - he doesn't like people saying nasty things about the Brits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

Mike
This is silly - we've both established where we stand, and neither of us feels thwe have anything to apologise for.
I suggest we accept that as the situation and take it from there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 11:01 AM

Agreed, Jim. What I have been trying to work towards.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:27 PM

"Don't tell your protege Keith - he doesn't like people saying nasty things about the Brits"

Say nasty things about Brits all you like - just make sure that they are true first.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:08 PM

I regret that what I said was true. The behaviour of the British troops posted to 'keep the peace' in pre-Israel Mandatory Palestine, along with that of the separately recruited Palestine Police, was disgraceful. The sort of incident I referred to above was notoriously commonplace. There was an awful sense of shame that British people could do such things. The same was said IIRC of those left holding the fort in various other colonies likely to be on the verge of independence: what went on in Kenya, on both sides, in MauMau days doesn't bear thinking of.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

That may be so MtheGM, but what Jim Carroll said about them in this thread was a lie, and one he has not yet retracted.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:32 AM

"....was a lie, and one he has not yet retracted. "
But you were going to provide the evidence to prove it wrong - the licence for your and Keith's "sniper bullets" was recinded - the order was "not fulfilled" - you said so, so there must be evidence for this.
Just one little quote will do the trick, so go on, surprise us.
All academic now anyway; the Syrian people are not to be trusted with democracy so we all may just let Assad get on with his job, supply him with what he needs (eh Keith) and then we can all return to normal and get things back the way that they were.
As I said earlier, what a shower of tossers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 04:20 AM

The lie was that Britain supplied weapons to Syria Jim.
If Britain did, there would be some record somewhere.
There is not.
Or have you found some?
Please share.

Was it an honest mistake, or a lie to implicate Britain and deflect blame from Russia and China?

I am shocked that you now blatantly state, "the Syrian people are not to be trusted with democracy so we all may just let Assad get on with his job, supply him with what he needs"
No, no and no.
That is the position of Russia, China, Iran and Jim.

You still refer to "sniper bullets."
There is a complete absence of any evidence of any such.
Or have you found some?
Please share.

The reason I do not believe any "small arms ammunition" was supplied is because Russian and Chinese factories can produce it cheaper than British factories (workers pay and conditions) and because Britain does not even make ammunition compatible with Syria's Russian weapons.
How do you explain it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:05 AM

This becomes as tireless as it gets Keith
Britain supplied "small arms ammunition" to Syria - it is documented on export records and it was identified as "sniper bullets" by you and our self acclaimed gun experts, you as 'merely sniper rifle bullets', and dickbrain as "sniper rifle bullets for practice - only £30,000 worth"   
simultaneous mistakes???? Don't think so.
Having been made aware of the damage done by 'merely sniper bullets' you have both gone through weeks of different explanations - it was sold - it wasnt sold - the order exists - the order doesn't exist - they were sent and used up - they were never sent.
how can you possibly claim an "honest mistake" when you have gone through this performance for weeks - you have openly lied and contradicted youself at least half a dozen times EACH TIME IN FULL VIEW AND ACCESSIBLE TO ANYBODY WHO CARES TO PULL OUT A QUOTE - THERE IS NOTHING "HONEST" ABOUT ANYTHING YOU HAVE SAID HERE
No evidence - an official list of export figures and an article in the pro-establishment Daily Mail will do very nicely thank you, apart from other reports of the existence of the shipment - if it doesn't exist or it wasn't fulfilled, it is up to you and Braindead to provide proof that (a) The Export figures are wrong and (B) All the newspaper reports are lying.
So far you have only contradicted your own attitude, that has flipped and turned for weeks, until settling on your and Gunners "honest mistake"
Stop lying - you make yourself the arsehole you really are.
In addition, you have agreed with the British Government's line that the Syrioan people cannot be trusted to coose a new leadership to replace Assad, so it is logical that the policy of allowing him to suppress the revolt is assisted, at least by standing by and doing nothing.
All of which makes your starting this thread a breathtaking exercise in cynical hypocracy, using the suffering of the Syrian people as a vehicle for your feigned sympathy.
Go and take a cold shower.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:13 AM

In addition, you have agreed with the British Government's line that the Syrioan people cannot be trusted to coose a new leadership to replace Assad,

That is not British Government's line.
I have posted Cameron's statement three times yet you have obviously not read it once.
It is a lie to say it is the British line, and a lie to say that I agree with it.

It is madness to cite Teribus and me as evidence for sniper rounds when we both refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

All the "sniper bullets" nonsense began with this sentence on Feb 11.

"That would be for the sniper rifles Jim"

BUT BRITAIN HAS SUPPLIED NO SNIPER RIFLES TO SYRIA.
You knew that.
YOU listed all the sales and permits.
I had corrected the mistake within a couple of days, but a month later you are still trying to use it against Britain, because you have nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:01 AM

"It is madness to cite Teribus and me as evidence for sniper rounds when we both refute it."
This is now the sixth explanation from you of this documented and authenticated sale. You have altered your story, not as new facts are revealed, but as a convenience to your own particular needs in the argument - the latest (a couple of days ago) being that you were confusing it with Libya.
I have never known two (sorry - three, remembering our absent hirsute friend) people lie and distort in pursuit of a nasty political agenda.
You have never attempted to explain your lies, you've now ceased to deny them.
Why should we believe the latest one?
Fact - the British government sold 'missiles/projectiles that kill people to a terrorist regime that was noted for torturing, murdering and imprisoning its people.
Whatever they were - (I'm prepared to accept them as sniper bullets based on your arguments) the sale was fully in line with its stated policy of selling arms to despotic regimes "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records".
You have yet to produce evidence that the license of sale was cancelled and the order not fulfilled...... can I breathe again now?
Ahhhhhh - that's better
The more you deny these facts the bigger liar you become (checked the length of your nose lately?)
"That is not British Government's line."
The Govenment's stated policy was made clear on Question Time by a senior government minister - for the reasons I have stated - a mistrust of what kind of leadership a democratic Syria would produce.
This has been borne out by Britain's failure to take any steps to intervene in the slaughter, not even to restrict in any way Assad's gofer in London (so far totally ignored by you)
Now - unless you have anything new (like evidence) to add.......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM

The Govenment's stated policy was made clear on Question Time by a senior government minister

Question Time is an unscripted programme where the panellists give their PERSONAL answers to questions without prior notice.

On 5th March the British Prime Minister DID make British policy clear.

HERE IT IS JIM.
READ IT THIS TIME!

Mr Cameron continued to condemn the Syrian regime's on going violence saying,"the history of Homs is being written in the blood of its citizens."

He made three key pledges to help Syrian citizens, promising more humanitarian assistance, to hold the those responsible for "slaughter" to account and to bring about the political transition that would put a stop to the killing.

The Prime Minister said Britain was playing a leading role and had already provided an extra £2 million to aid agencies operating on the ground to help deliver emergency medical supplies and food rations for 20,000 people.

He added that Britain would this week, continue to secure a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding an end to the violence and immediate humanitarian access.

"The longer access is denied, the more the world will believe that the Syrian regime is detemined to cover up the extent of the horror brought to bear on Baba Amr," he said.


"We are working to make sure those responsible for crimes are being held to account. The European Council agreed that there must be 'a day of reckoning' for those who are responsible," he added.

Mr Cameron said and he would use "every tool we can, sanctions, aid, the pressure of diplomacy, reaching out to the oposition in Syria and beyond."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:48 AM

Senior ministers don't give 'personal opinions - especially not ones that conflict with Government policy
The government, should it wish, would have no problem in assisting Syria with military support - it had no qualms about its search for them thar WMD - and look at the mess it gort the world into.
And Assad's gofer..... why no action and why do you continue not to comment on Britain allowing a war criminal's faithful servant operate without hindrence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:58 AM

Government does not announce policy on BBC Question Time!
The Prime Minister's statement is more recent anyway.

And Assad's gofer..... why no action and why do you continue not to comment on Britain allowing a war criminal's faithful servant operate without hindrence?

Unless he commits a crime, he can not be touched or his assets seized.
The Stasi do not operate here yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:05 PM

"Fact - the British government sold 'missiles/projectiles that kill people to a terrorist regime that was noted for torturing, murdering and imprisoning its people." - Jim Carroll

Not a fact at all Christmas, my little plumb pudding. I can certainly find no record of any sales or arms or ammunition by the British Government to the Assad Regime in Syria.

Now you state that they supplied weapons, now changed to 'missiles/projectiles', why that Christmas does that sound deadlier than ammunition/bullets? So where is your proof that the British Government sold these items?

As MtheGM put it - The ball is in court - You made the statement you substantiate it.

Here's a fact for you Christmas - You can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 03:55 PM

"Now you state that they supplied weapons, now changed to 'missiles/projectiles',"
Back to the Petrol-Napalm, Weedkiller-Agent Orange and Chemical Phosphorous - flares
Bullets turn guns into weapons - and essential part of killing people.
Not a change of heart, just trying to clear up the difficult bits for you.
Britain sold Syria "small arms ammunition - identified by both of you as sniper bullets - on numerous occasions -only sniper bullets, too few to worry about, too long ago, wrong size for Syrian weapons, you even told me not to believe all I read in the paper.
"Do you faithfully believe everything you read in the Daily Mail Christmas"
Who is one to believe if he an't take the word of a soldier - even a toy one lie yourself.
Never mind - soon be closing time and you might be able to impress your mates, if they're drunk enough.
"As MtheGM put it "
Hope Mile is comfortable there - it's getting quite crowded under his wing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:06 PM

Ah, so in short, you have no proof at all that the British Government sold anything to the Assad regime in Syria. It was just something you read in a newspaper, and having read the passage you misunderstood it and got it all wrong - something that I bet is not too unusual for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:08 AM

Jim, note the date of this post, and move on.
And remember, Britain does not make ammunition for Syria's Russian weapons.

15 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM

This thread is about real suffering.
That of the Syrian people, at the hands of a brutal regime supported by Russia and China.
All you can contribute is a rant against Britain, WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!

Even the The Daily Mail, your only source of evidence (!) does not say Britain supplied anything.
"Approved" sale of small arms ammunition.
No reason not to "approve" that. No-one would buy it when China sells it cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM

"WHO HAS SUPPLIED NOTHING TO SYRIA!"
Except the documented small arms ammunition - as you say, sniper bullets
Nothing else new then?
Don't thing I want to waste any more time in the foetid company company of a bunch of rabid right wingers who don't even have the bottle to own up to and stand by their own statements
Have a nice day, and thanks for all those extra points for your CV
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:31 AM

Except the documented small arms ammunition
No documentation that it was supplied, and good reasons to doubt it was.
as you say, sniper bullets
No. As we said, not sniper bullets.

You have nothing, so off you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:03 PM

"Except the documented small arms ammunition"

Documented where?? A news paper?? The Daily Mail eh? Are you serious?

Daily Mail _ Russia Sends Troops To Help Assad

Oh and this one might help you as well - its on another subject dear to your heart but in the Daily Mail so it must be true:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117865/Sexual-abuse-15-year-old-girl-gang-men-filmed-mobile-phone.html?ICO=most_read_mo

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:41 PM

Jim Carroll
UK ARMS SALES TO THE MIDDLE EAST

In the papers today, another story about Syrian soldiers firing into protesting crowds. 17 people were shot dead last week, 112 over the weekend. It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition. It's not the first time our equipment has been used this year to suppress calls for the democracy that we enjoy ourselves.

Bahrain: Dozens of people have been killed and hundreds more arrested and beaten since protests began in February.
Recent UK arms sales to Bahrain include: Assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, CS hand grenades, tear gas.

Egypt: Over 400 people died and 6,000 were injured before Hosni Mubarak resigned.
UK arms sales to Egypt: Machine guns, bombs, missiles

Libya: Several thousand dead, the country is now in civil war.
UK arms sales to Libya: ammunition, tear gas, armoured cars.

Oman: Relatively peaceful, but several deaths reported.
UK arms sales to Oman: ammunition, pistols, submachine guns, tear gas, CS and stun grenades.

Saudi Arabia: No protests here, but Saudi troops are operating in Bahrain, where they have been assisting in the destruction of Shia mosques.
UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia: Vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, tear gas, sniper rifles

Syria: An estimated 350 people have died since the start of protests in March.
UK arms sales to Syria: small arms ammunition
Yemen: At least 45 killed in a massacre on March 18th.
UK arms sales to Yemen: ammunition
Britain controls 20% of the world's arms sales. This is nothing to be proud of. Our industry props up oppressive regimes, and our condemnation of human rights abuses ring hollow.
We're remarkably tolerant of these oppressive governments and their totalitarian heads of state. The Kings of Bahrain, Oman and Saudi Arabia are even invited to the royal wedding, although Bahrain has wisely declined.
Sources: BBC, Guardian, BBC , SIPRI

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:39 AM

"It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition."

Not "entirely possible" at all, in fact it is highly unlikely.

Now Christmas what about Russia now not only sending ammunition, weapons (including heavy weapons - tanks, artillery, etc) but sending anti-terrorist forces to help Assad?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:26 AM

Welcome back Jim!
Not your shortest Goodbye For Ever, but one of them.

Syrian soldiers firing into protesting crowds. 17 people were shot dead last week, 112 over the weekend. It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition.
Syrian soldiers are armed with Russian rifles firing ammunition Britain does make, so it entirely impossible.

I know that a licence was issued years ago for much less than a year's supply of ammunition.
But was any delivered?
What could it be?
Their usual suppliers could supply it cheaper, and Britain not at all.

It would have to be bought in from those usual suppliers and then sold on.
Why would anyone do that?

You must see why we find it unbelievable Jim.
You have offered no explanation, so you must find it unbelievable too.
But that is all you have against Britain so you must go on using it, or we might start dwelling on the guilt of your comrade states.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:47 AM

"SYRIA: Total value of 1 UK military licence from Oct09 – Oct10 For small arms ammunition. £0.03 million"

"Military export licenses to Libya alone since the start of 2009 totalled £61.3million, according to Department for Business figures.
The UK also awarded Bahrain £6million of licences covering submachine guns, sniper rifles, CS hand grenades, smoke canisters, stun grenades and riot control agents.
At least 26 citizens have been killed and 1,000 injured as the Gulf state cracked down on freedom campaigners.
Britain also approved arms licenses totalling £1.7billion to Saudi Arabia, £20.4million to Egypt, £276.9million to Algeria and £52.8million to the United Arab Emirates.
Body armour and night vision goggles have been approved for Yemen, small arms ammunition for Syria, and sniper rifles, aircraft components and armoured personnel carriers for Saudi Arabia."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/22/uk-arms-sales-middle-east-north-africa
Suggest you follow al the links in this one; containsall the facts and figures of British arms sales

"No documentation that it was supplied"
And no reports exist to prove - or even claim that it wasn't.
It appears that the only two people on the planet making such a claim are a gun fantacist who likes to wave his weapon about to impress the assembled company and an extreme nationalist who believes it "anti-British" to criticise his government's stated policy of selling weapons to despotic killers.
"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that".
(Vince Cable Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills, Assumed office, 12 May 2010)
Have a nice day - y'all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:32 AM

The reason I do not believe any "small arms ammunition" was supplied is because Russian and Chinese factories can produce it cheaper than British factories (workers pay and conditions) and because Britain does not even make ammunition compatible with Syria's Russian weapons.
How do you explain it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:29 AM

"Britain does not even make ammunition compatible with Syria's Russian weapons."
The claimed knowledge of what weapons are used by Syrian snipers is like everything else you two have claimed on this thread totally unsubstantiated - you both have lied continuously, have presented 'facts' that have proved to be false, - how the **** does anybody know what weapons Syrian snipers carry - do they publish the information on the web - clowns?
Are the Syrians so thick as to put in an order for ammunition they did not use?
How do you explain ALL that Keith - and with this superior knowledge you both claim to possess, why did you both go along with "sniper bullets for as long as you did (each time related to Syria and not Libya, as you now appear to be claiming), repeating that they were "only sniper bullets, purchased too long ago to have any importance, too few to worry about, only for practice, the government didn't know what the Syrian regime were doing to its own people" - all used by the two of you to explain away your identified "sniper bullets")...... and all the other shit you stuck with until the bottom fell out of this particular part of your world?

If you are going to lie - please make an effort and stick to the one story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:45 AM

The claimed knowledge of what weapons are used by Syrian snipers is like everything else you two have claimed on this thread totally unsubstantiated
Both Teribus and 999 provided details of Syria's sniper and other weapons.-
you both have lied continuously, have presented 'facts' that have proved to be false,
Not true Jim.
Are the Syrians so thick as to put in an order for ammunition they did not use?
Did they put in an order.
Some unknown person applied for a licence some years ago for a small quantity of small arms ammunition.
That is the total of your evidence.
On the strength of that you have made this whole thread about Britain.
No concern for the human catastrophe or those actually culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:18 AM

"Both Teribus and 999 provided details of Syria's sniper and other weapons.-"
I don't know about 999 or where he got his information (which I should have thought, considering the sensitivity of the practice of sniping, would have been classified) but Terribus is a bullshitting liar who appears to believe his gun obsession brings him some sort of status.
"That is the total of your evidence."
The total of my evidence is that Britain licensed an order of small arms ammunition to a country that was torturing and murdering people, and had been for decades.
There are a list of countries with similar records that Britain not only has sold arms and equipment to in the past, but was still touting for buisness with within months of the portests starting. If trouble breaks out in any of these, the dictators will be slaughtering protestors with British arms - again.
Doesn't that bother you at all?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:28 AM

I would be happy to debate the morality of the international arms trade with you, but not on a thread devoted to the unique horror that is Syria now.
I am not bullying you.
I am not censoring you.
I am just declining to indulge your desperation to divert attention from the bloody guilt of your comrade states.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:30 AM

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question - obviously it doesn't bother you.
Can we take that you have now dropped your unsubstantiated claim that the shipment wasn't sent, but are now claiming that it was sent, but to a private individual rather than the Syrian military - thus adding yet another explanation of the sale to the half dozen + you have already given.
Do you think we'll make it the round dozen before the day is out?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:31 AM

which I should have thought, considering the sensitivity of the practice of sniping, would have been classified

You thought wrong then Jim.
As usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:34 AM

Can we take that you have now dropped your unsubstantiated claim that the shipment wasn't sent, but are now claiming that it was sent, but to a private individual rather than the Syrian military - thus adding yet another explanation of the sale to the half dozen + you have already given

A private individual applied for the licence to supply.
I do not believe anything was actually supplied, for all the reasons I have given.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:40 AM

Jimmie boy

YOU have been shown to be the liar, in all cases that evidence has been found.

YOU state that Britain sold ammunition to "Syria", yet you do NOT show WHO IN SYRIA got that ammunition. Without evidence, it is MORE likely that any such ammunition, IF sold to Syria, would have been to the REBELS, who are more likely to have weapons (than the Syrian Army , supplied by Russia) that could even USE such ammunition.

When YOU have some factual evidence about this, feel free to reply- but your tendency to make insults rather than present facts means that most of what you say is ignored, and your own actions have prevented any serious consideration of any valid points you MIGHT have.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

From Reuters.


The biggest importer of arms to Syria, Russia sold Damascus nearly $1 billion worth of arms including missile systems last year, while shipments of hard-to-track Russian small weapons have risen since the uprising against Assad started, government defectors say.

In January, the Russian ship Chariot, loaded with arms and ammunition, turned off its radar and sailed quietly to Syria to avoid attracting the attention of world powers increasingly frustrated by Russia and China's refusal to back U.N. Security Council resolutions aimed at ending 11 months of violence.

But rebel soldiers and an official who defected from the government say Moscow's small arms trade with Damascus is booming, and the government doubled its military budget in 2011 to pay for the crackdown on the opposition.

He said by telephone from Cairo that Russian arms accounted for 50 percent of all deals before Assad's crackdown on the protesters. China and North Korea provided 30 percent, and Iran and other suppliers 20 percent, he said.

The government had boosted its defence budget and arms imports by cutting funds to other ministries in areas such as education and health by as much as 30 percent, he said.

"Before the uprising, Russia was trading weapons with Syria in a more limited manner. More recently ... Russia began giving more weapons to Syria," he said.

"To my knowledge, Russia was shipping monthly," he said, referring to deliveries prior to his defection last month.

A LEGAL TRADE

ThomsonReuters shipping data shows at least four cargo ships since December that left the Black Sea port of Oktyabrsk - used by Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport for arms shipments - have headed for or reached the Syrian port of Tartous.

Separately was the Chariot, a Russian ship which docked at the Cypriot port of Limassol during stormy weather in mid-January. It promised to change its destination in accordance with a European Union ban on weapons to Syria but, hours after leaving Limassol, reset its course for Syria.

A Cypriot source said it was carrying a load of ammunition and a European security source said the ship was hauling ammunition and sniper rifles of the kind used increasingly by Syrian government forces against protesters.

The source also said Russian manufacturers had increased production to meet the demand from Syria.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/21/us-syria-russia-arms-idUSTRE81K13420120221

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:04 AM

"ship was hauling ammunition and sniper rifles of the kind used increasingly by Syrian government forces against protesters."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:35 PM

"I don't know about 999 or where he got his information"

Couldn't be easier Christmas - Just Google Syrian Armed Forces - Then:

Step 1: Select Syrian Army
Step 2: Select Section 3 Equipment
Step 3: Click on Modern Equipment and Uniform of the Syrian Army and that takes you to - Equipment of the Syrian Army
Step 4: Select Section 12 deals with Small Arms;
Step 5: Select Sub-Section 12.4 which details Sniper Rifles used by the Syrian Army

And the list is:
Dragunov SVD - Russian
PSL - Romanian
Zastava M91 - Serbian
Steyr SSG 69 - Austrian

See dead simple.

On the other hand Google - UK Arms Sales to Syria - And you get -

FUCK ALL

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:36 PM

"A private individual applied for the licence to supply."
Where is your evidence for this?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

Who else Jim?
Did the government apply to itself?
Did a manufacturer apply?
No. Because we have no manufacturers of Russian ammunition.
OK Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:33 PM

No evidence for your statement then - why am I not surprised?
The licence was issued for ammunition to be sold to a state guilty of horrendous human rights abuses - that'll do nicely for the time being.
Have you pair ever considered a double act - now that Morcambe and Wise have gone and Laurel and Hardy are long dead? There's a gap in the market for you out there
I make this the seventh explanation of the (documented) sale of missiles for killing people that don't exist - have I missed any?
As I said before - what a pair of tossers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM

OK Jim.
Britain probably never supplied, but did issue a licence for thirty grand worth of small arms ammunition it does not make.
Once .
Years ago.

Russia sold Damascus nearly $1 billion worth of arms including missile systems JUST LAST YEAR, and is still shipping it in as fast as it can go.

So why hundreds of posts about Britain and hardly a one about your comrade states?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:18 AM

Today.
There have been further reports of heavy shelling from three directions at Sarmin, which is in Idlib province.

The SOHR - which is based in Britain - says government troops are trying to storm the town, which is being bombarded with artillery and large callibre machine-gun fire.


at least 10 civilians on a bus trying to flee to Turkey have been killed.

The group, which included women and children, was shot at in the northern town of Sermin, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR).

It describes the northern and eastern districts of Hama as "a battlefield", and says bodies are having to be buried in a local park.

Witnesses say several buildings have been destroyed and many civilians have been wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:33 AM

Today, from BBC.
Russian President Dmitri Medvedev has offered full support for envoy Kofi Annan's peace mission in Syria, saying it may be the last chance to avoid a "prolonged and bloody civil war".

The governent in Moscow urged Mr Annan to work with both the Syrian government and opposition to end the violence.

Mr Annan has been seeking to persuade Russia to take a firmer stance against President Bashar al-Assad's government.

He will later go to China which has also usually backed Syria at the UN.

As clashes continue, Human Rights Watch has accused Syrian government forces of using civilians as human shields

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 09:10 PM

A very sad music-related story:

the destruction of Samir Azar's luthiery

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 08:04 AM

Syria's government has agreed to accept the peace plan put forward by the United Nations and Arab League envoy, Kofi Annan,

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 12:36 PM

Iran praises Syria for its handling of uprising

DUBAI (Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad praised the Syrian leadership's handling of a year-long uprising in which thousands have died, saying Tehran would do everything it could to support its closest Arab ally, Iranian media reported on Tuesday.
Shi'ite Muslim Iran backed popular uprisings which have removed leaders in Egypt, Libya and Yemen but has steadfastly supported Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, who is a member of the minority Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam.
"I am very happy that Syrian officials are managing the situation well ... I hope the situation in Syria improves day after day," the official IRNA news agency quoted Ahmadinejad as saying during talks with Assad's special envoy, Faisal Meqdad.
The United Nations said on Tuesday that more than 9,000 people have died in the Syrian government's crackdown on protesters and armed rebels opposed to Assad, while Syrian authorities blame foreign-backed terrorists for the violence and say 3,000 soldiers and police have been killed.

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-praises-syria-handling-uprising-173415780.html


Ahmadinejad said there was no limit to expanding ties with Syria, and Iran would do "all in its power to support this country".

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 01:30 PM

BBC today.
Syrian authorities are systematically detaining and torturing children, the United Nations' human rights chief, Navi Pillay, has told the BBC.

Ms Pillay said President Bashar al-Assad could end the detentions and stop the killing of civilians immediately, simply by issuing an order.

"They've gone for the children - for whatever purposes - in large numbers. Hundreds detained and tortured... it's just horrendous," she said.

"Children shot in the knees, held together with adults in really inhumane conditions, denied medical treatment for their injuries, either held as hostages or as sources of information."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 02:21 PM

Uh-huh. Sure. And where have I heard all this kind of hoo-hah before? The great western media propaganda machine rolls on.

Its latest target: regime change in Syria, and another takeover by western corporates of a country they don't yet fully control. We're being played like violins by our corporate-controlled media, whose purpose is to create overall impressions and manufacture consent.

Here's Eric Margolis' latest column...a breath of balance and reason that is all too rarely heard in our compliant media:

THE DANGEROUS MESS IN SYRIA GROWS MURKIER

Syria's murky, multi-level conflict continues to grow worse. So does public confusion here in the west as the US, British and some European media keep depicting Syria's civil war as a simple passion play pitting the evil Asad regime in Damascus against mostly unarmed democratic protestors.

We saw this same one-dimensional, deceptive reporting recently in Libya that was designed to support foreign intervention. It's as incomplete today about Syria as it was in Libya which, by the way, is turning into a dangerous mess.

My assessment based on reliable primary sources in Washington, Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon:

Support for the Asad family's Ba'ath regime, now in power for 41 years, is clearly slipping. But important sections of the armed forces, the 17 intelligence and security agencies, the powerful Alawai minority, most Syrian Christians, tribal elements and much of the commercial middle and upper class still back the Asad's. In spite of intense western efforts to overthrow him, Bashar Asad, a mild-mannered former eye specialist, is still hanging on.

The US, Britain, France, and some conservative Arab allies have funded and armed the Syrian rebellion from its start a year ago. In fact, the US has been funding anti-Asad groups since the mid 1990's. Arms and munitions are said to be flowing to Syria's rebels through Jordan and Lebanon. Extreme rightwing groups in Lebanon, funded by western and Arab powers and Israel, are playing a key role in infiltrating gunmen and arms into northern Syria.

The Sunni Muslim Brotherhood has once again risen against the Alawi-dominated regime in Damascus. In 1982, this writer was outside the Syrian city of Hama when government forces crushed a Brotherhood uprising, killing an estimated 10,000 people and razing part of the city with heavy artillery.

Enter the jihadis. Recently, small numbers of al-Qaida veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have entered Syria and are using car bombs to try to destabilize the government. Current al-Qaida leader, Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri, has called for all-out war against the Asad regime.

Interestingly, the US, France and Britain now find themselves in bed with the very jihadist forces they profess to abhor – but, of course, whom they used in Afghanistan in the 1980's and, lately, in Libya.

Add to this dangerous mix growing numbers of local militias in Syria who are battling one another and committing many of the atrocities against civilians, recalling Iraq and Lebanon's bloody civil wars.

Washington's key objective in Syria is to overthrow the Asad regime in order to injure its closest ally, Iran. There is so much anti-Iranian hysteria now in the US, that any blow against the Islamic republic is seen as good. Former US fears of a chaotic, post-Asad Syria are now forgotten in the rush to undermine Iran, by destabilizing Syria. Republicans, led by Sen. John McCain, are baying for war against Syria as President Barack Obama tries to hold back the war hawks.

Israel, whose influence in Washington in this election year is unprecedented, is stoking war fever against Syria and Iran. Israel is delighted that the crises with both nations have eclipsed the issue of Palestine and of Syria's Golan Heights, which were illegally annexed by Israel in 1981. Golan supplies one third of Israel's total water. Israel's objective is to see Syria splintered into feuding cantons like today's Iraq.

France's right wing, led by President Nicholas Sarkozy's UMP party, has long desired to re-establish France's former colonial influence in Lebanon and Syria. The Asad regime in Syria has been a thorn in France's side for four decades, particularly so in Lebanon, which Syria still insists is a historical part of Syria. France hopes to duplicate in Syria its success in stirring up and profiting from the uprising in Libya.

Russia has been defending the Asad regime and is determined not to be outfoxed in Syria by a false "humanitarian" intervention as it was in Libya. China is similarly cautious. But both are slowly lessening their former staunch support of Damascus as seen by last week's UN Security Council call for a new peace plan in Syria.

A cease fire is urgently needed. Syria must stop using heavy weapons in urban areas. But outside powers must also stop supporting violent armed groups that Damascus calls "terrorists." There are no clean hands in Syria.

copyright Eric S. Margolis 2012

*****


And that, folks, covers all the bases. It tells you what most of our corporate media is not telling you. Western governments don't give a tinker's damn about civilian casualties in Syria. They couldn't care less if women and children and innocents die. Nor could they care less about establishing a democracy there. They are just as bad as Mr Asad, if not worse...and they are far more dangerous to the world than Mr Asad. What they have in mind is overthrowing another independent government that they don't yet dominate (one of the few left), taking over whatever resources they can in Syria, destroying it as an effective political power, and exploiting the place for all it's worth, and thus positioning themselves better to hurt Iran. They have been illegally and secretly arming and fomenting a civil war in Syria, just as they did previously in Lybia. Mr Asad is just a PR excuse for war...a "face" to hate, as Khadafi was before him, and as Saddam was before him. If the West succeeds in overthrowing Asad, the end result will be that the Syrian people and the Syrian nation will be EVEN worse off in a short while than they were under the Asad regime. MUCH worse off, in fact. Their nation will be fragmented and to all intents, destroyed. Their public institutions will be gutted and sold off to western corporates at bargain basement prices. The hundreds of thousands of people once employed in their public institutions will mostly lose their jobs. Foreign contractors will come in to profit off "reconstruction". This happens everywhere that the Western powers go when they bring down a noncompliant Third World government that wouldn't do things their way.

Just like what happened to Iraq since 2003. Just like what's happening in Lybia now.

You're being played like violins by your corporate news media, using standard emotional reaction techniques that have been employed again and again in your media. They will keep getting you all excited about the Syrian civilian casualties and victims that their corporate bosses and your politicians couldn't care less about. This struggle is NOT about helping ANY Syrian civilians. And it won't help any Syrian civilians. It will hurt them. Just like in Iraq. Just like in Lybia.

Same old game. Different playing field. We're living within great imperial powers folks, and they lie to us every single day about what they are really doing. And they kill people in the Third World. For more money, resources, and power. Asad is nothing more than a superficial excuse. If it wasn't him, it would be some other handy "face" for you to focus on. He is being used as a marketing tool, just as Khadafi and Saddam were. And you fall for it, don't you?

Nope, I'm not gonna argue with you about it.

That would just eat up my time uselessly and achieve absolutely nothing. I'm just telling you about it ONCE, and that's it. Carry on fantasizing about the latest great "humanitarian" crusade of the New World Order.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

And I will not argue with you LH.
The opposition may be no better than Assad.

I do think it undeniable that Assad's regime is guilty of extreme crimes against humanity.
The worst the world has seen for many years.
The evidence for that is overwhelming.
I go further and hold those who provide the means as also culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 01:24 AM

Margolis a revisionist historian, "Eisenhower Republican" and middle-east "expert".

Casts dark hints about "another takeover by western corporates of a country they don't yet fully control" (There hasn't been one yet, so I do not know where the "another" comes from). Yet not one western corporate player named. Talking about names, as a middle-east expert I would have thought that he would have got the ASSAD family name right.

Subject: RE: BS: Houla horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 12 - 05:09 PM

It continues.
Dozens of children, throats cut and head shot, according to BBC man there.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Beer
Date: 27 May 12 - 08:54 PM

"The tragic events in Syria and the deaths of tens of people deserve condemnation," said Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov, writing on Twitter, Sunday. "However it is necessary to seriously examine the causes of what happened."

Taken from this news article.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/syrian-massacre-could-hasten-end-to-civil-strife/article2444812/

Yep!, sure... lets examine the causes. Lots of time. Mean while a few more hundred will be killed.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 12:55 PM

And the crocodile tears go on - here and elsewhere.
What a pity Syria does not have significant supplies of oil; then there would be whole armies queuing up on the Syrian border keen to seek out all those weapons of mass destruction and put Assad where he belongs.
As it is, if he gets his act together, he could still be in time for an invite to the Jubilee knees-up at Buck House (maybe he can share a table with the Bahraini leaders).
From this morning's Times - says it all really.   
Jim Carroll

THE CHILDREN OF HOULA WILL SOON BE FORGOTTEN
The. international community expresses horror but will not act in Syria, and Assad knows it
It is becoming wearily familiar. The Syrian regime commits an egregious atrocity. The international community issues condemnations. Nothing happens. Will it be different this time? Could the massacre of 90 civilians, a third of them children, in the village of Houla prove the tipping point? Can world leaders really watch the footage of those grotesquely mutilated young bodies and still argue that there is a ceasefire in place, that the 270 unarmed UN observers on the ground in Syria are making a difference, and that Kofi Annan's six-point peace plan still stands a chance of working? The UN Security Council was meeting to consider its response last night. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has summoned the senior Syrian diplomat in London for a dressing-down today (did we not want to disturb his weekend?).
Hillary Clinton is demanding an end to President Assad's "rule by murder and fear". The French want an urgent meeting of the "Friends of Syria" group. Mr Annan and Ban Ki-moon, the UN Secretary-General, have jointly denounced this "flagrant violation of international law".
I fear it is so much rhetoric. After 15 months of increasing violence certain truths have become self-evident. The Assad regime is impervious to diplomatic or economic pressure. It will do whatever is necessary to ensure its survival, and its blueprint is the destruction of Hama, Syria's rebellious fourth city, by Assad's father in 1982. As many as 20,000 civilians were killed on that occasion, but the regime survived and the world moved on.
I was in rebel-held Syria days after the Annan plan was "implemented" last month. To a man, the fighters of the Free Syrian Army told me that it was a charade; that it would serve merely to give the regime more time to crush the uprising. They were right.
Another truth should also be by now self-evident: for all the talk of buffer zones, no-fly zones and humanitarian corridors, the West is not going to intervene militarily to end the carnage.
At a time when US and European publics are heartily sick of wars in the Islamic world, and their governments are rushing to extricate their forces from the debacle of Afghanistan, they will not countenance intervention in a country that has "quagmire" written all over it. That is especially true with a US presidential election looming this autumn, and an outside chance of a conflict with Iran as well.
Libya was different. It was a small, relatively homogenous country in which few outside powers had much interest. After 40 years of egregious excess Colonel Muammar Gaddafi was virtually friendless. The Arab League called for Nato's intervention to prevent an imminent wholesale slaughter in Benghazi and the UN Security Council approved it
Syria, by contrast, is a mosaic of ethnic and religious groups who used to cohabit peacefully but are now thirsting for blood. It is the object of any number of conflicting and combustible international interests— Iranian, Russian, Israeli, Turkish.
There is no way that Russia and China would let the Security Council approve military intervention even if there was an appetite for such a course, and how could such a country possibly be governed if the regime was removed by foreign forces? Think of Iraq, but worse.
Mrs Clinton described the Annan plan as Assad's "last chance", but arguably it was last chance for an international community desperate to conceal its own impotence.
All options are now on the table, we're told, but they are precious few. The international community can impose yet more economic sanctions, but while they have undoubtedly caused hardship they are unlikely to topple the regime. The West can turn a blind eye while Gulf States funnel arms to the disorganised rebels, but that is unlikely to change the dynamic unless done on an industrial scale. Western leaders may step up their efforts to persuade Russia to stop selling arms to the regime, but they stand little chance of success.
I hope I am wrong, but I would guess that the deaths of Houla's women and children will be largely forgotten by next weekend, overshadowed by events closer to home: the deepening euro crisis, the onset of summer, even the Diamond Jubilee celebration .

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 12 - 01:10 PM

Are we monsters Jim, that we are incapable of being touched and offendede by such atrocities, and only use them to further some unspecified, monstrous objectives?

Any criticism of Russia for shipping in resupplies after Assad's expenditure of ammunition in Houla?

From Moscow Times.

UNITED NATIONS — A Russian cargo ship loaded with weapons is en route to Syria and was due to arrive at a Syrian port over the weekend, Al Arabiya television said in a report that Western diplomats in New York described as credible.

Syria is one of Russia's top weapons customers. The United States and European Union have suggested that the UN Security Council should impose an arms embargo and other UN sanctions on Syria for its 14-month assault on a pro-democracy opposition determined to oust Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Syria has blamed rebels for thousands of deaths, including the killing of at least 109 people, including dozens of children, in the restive town of Houla on Friday.

Russia, with the support of fellow veto power China, has prevented the UN Security Council from imposing any sanctions on Syria and has refused to halt arms sales to Damascus.

"Al Arabiya has learned that a Russian cargo ship carrying a large amount of weapons plans to unload its cargo in the Syrian port of Tartus," the broadcaster said on its website late last week.

The report said the ship left a Russian port on May 6 and cited a "Western source" as saying it would dock at Tartus on Saturday. It was unclear Sunday whether the ship had docked.

"The ship is trying to conceal its final destination in a suspicious way," Al Arabiya said.

Western diplomats and officials said the report was credible.

In a letter to the UN Security Council, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said he had seen reports of countries supplying arms to the government and rebels. He urged states not to arm either side in the Syrian conflict.

"Those who may contemplate supporting any side with weapons, military training or other military assistance, must reconsider such options to enable a sustained cessation of violence," he said.

Russia has defended its weapons deliveries to Syria in the face of Western criticism, saying government forces need to defend themselves against rebels receiving arms from abroad.

Damascus says Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Libya are among the countries helping the rebels.



Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/report-russian-arms-sent-to-syria/459334.html#ixzz1wBVRPYsV
The Moscow Times

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 02:56 PM

Just won a bet with myself that you would be the first to defend the inaction on Syria - (that's what it has been from the beginning, and was stated openly on the Question Time programme all those months ago) - surprise, surprise!!!.
You have defended the British sales of military equipment to this bastard, (six seperate excuses from you to date) you have proposed the sale of riot equipment to him, you have attempted to shoot down any proposals for direct action against him, financial or military, you have opposedf the idea that his gofer who regularly visits London and owns £ms worth of property there, be acted against in the form of arrest or confiscation..... you have even suggested that Assad be left to his own devices because "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
For someone who does as much handwringing and sackcloth and ashes as you do, you come over as one of his keenest supporters - stomach heavingly monstrous indeed.
I wonder how you are going to defend Britain's relationship with China after all this is over.
"Today, however, China and Britain enjoy a friendly, cooperative, and close relationship. China and Britain have established a full strategic partnership and close cooperation.[1][2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 02:59 PM

BTW - yes - of couse I find the shipping of weapons by Russia murderously disgusting - I just don't see much difference between the way our governments are behaving and continue to behave - unlike you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 12 - 03:21 PM

Jim, You have defended the British sales of military equipment to this bastard
No I have not.
I have questioned your assertion that a few bullets were sold, years ago, when we do not make what they use!

Inaction?
Independent today-
David Cameron and William Hague were today involved in high-level international talks to ratchet up pressure on Syrian President Bashar Assad in the wake of the massacre of more than 100 people, including women and small children.

The Foreign Secretary flew to Moscow for talks with opposite number Sergei Lavrov to try to secure Russian backing for a fresh United Nations Security Council resolution against the Assad regime and to warn of the danger of "all-out civil war" in the Middle Eastern state.

What extra action does Jim advocate?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 12 - 03:51 PM

"I have questioned your assertion that a few bullets were sold, years ago, when we do not make what they use!
"
No you haven't questioned anything of the sort - you identified them as sniper bullets and excused them for 'only' being such.
Realising what a magnificent foot-in-mouth you made, given the slaughter by snipers in Homs, you then denied their existence, claimed they had never been sent, must have been used up years ago, only a small order.... you name it, you claimed it.
Cameron and Hague's statement is vacuous bullshit - but I will accept their minds must be preoccupied at the moment with how they are going to defend the crooked Baroness.
"What extra action does Jim advocate?"
You've had it, and opposed it; can't be arsed repeating it - break the habit of a lifetime and read the thread.
I assume you are not going to bother defending your proposal to send your beloved leader riot equipment!!
Mealy mouthed as ever.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:47 AM

Jim, your dishonesty shames you.

I have no knowledge of any sniper ammunition supplied by Britain to Syria.
Neither have you, because it is a lie.
You know this because it has all been explained to you before, but you keep on with it.

Britain has supplied Syria NO weapons, NO sniper ammunition and almost certainly NO ammunition at all because Britain does not make what they use.

This thread is about the ongoing tragedy in Syria.
Please take your deranged obsession against Britain somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 03:10 AM

It's all above Keith - your whole, sordid arguments, along with your attempts to prevent discussion on the real issues, the buddy-buddy attitude adopted by Britain and the US towards these despots, torurers and murderers, especially if they have oil to sell us - all on record.
It would be inhuman not to be appalled at what these monsters have done, and are continuing to do to their people, but it is equally inhuman not to recognise the part played by our govenments in supporting them - in ignoring their behaviour, by supplying them with the wherewithal to carry out their crimes, and in validating them by continuing a cosy relationship with them (and by describing as "racist" the suggestion that we should not trade arms with them, as Cameron has done.
It is all this that you have supported at one time or another and have attempted to make "thread drift" - there's the shame.
The sale of small arms ammunition to Syria is on record - in government documents reproduced by the national press (see above) - it doesn't matter how long ago and how much - the Assads have been torturing ang killing their people for decades, yet these sales went through, and still Britain continues to trade arms to monsters - conclusively proved by Cameron's hosting a Middle East arms fair after the Arab Spring protests have begun.
And you propose that we should sell these people riot control equipment.
Shame indeed, but not mine.
Jim Carroll

"UK arms sales to the Middle East
In the papers today, another story about Syrian soldiers firing into protesting crowds. 17 people were shot dead last week, 112 over the weekend. It's entirely possible that they used British ammunition. It's not the first time our equipment has been used this year to suppress calls for the democracy that we enjoy ourselves.
Bahrain: Dozens of people have been killed and hundreds more arrested and beaten since protests began in February.
Recent UK arms sales to Bahrain include: Assault rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, CS hand grenades, tear gas.
Egypt: Over 400 people died and 6,000 were injured before Hosni Mubarak resigned.
UK arms sales to Egypt: Machine guns, bombs, missiles
Libya: Several thousand dead, the country is now in civil war.
UK arms sales to Libya: ammunition, tear gas, armoured cars.
Oman: Relatively peaceful, but several deaths reported.
UK arms sales to Oman: ammunition, pistols, submachine guns, tear gas, CS and stun grenades.
Saudi Arabia: No protests here, but Saudi troops are operating in Bahrain, where they have been assisting in the destruction of Shia mosques.
UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia: Vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, tear gas, sniper rifles
Syria: An estimated 350 people have died since the start of protests in March.
UK arms sales to Syria: small arms ammunition
Yemen: At least 45 killed in a massacre on March 18th.
UK arms sales to Yemen: ammunition
Britain controls 20% of the world's arms sales. This is nothing to be proud of. Our industry props up oppressive regimes, and our condemnation of human rights abuses ring hollow.
We're remarkably tolerant of these oppressive governments and their totalitarian heads of state. The Kings of Bahrain, Oman and Saudi Arabia are even invited to the royal wedding, although Bahrain has wisely declined."
(Sources - BBC, Guardian, Stockholm Institute for Peace Studies)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 03:21 AM

Britain has no culpability for the tragedy of Syria.
Britain is one of the good guys on this.

A licence issued, years ago, for the supply of a few bullets that Britain does not make.

NO ARMAMENTS SUPPLIED BY BRITAIN, so why are all your posts about Britain and not the ACTUAL SUPPLIERS, Russia and Iran?

Give you mad obsessions and vendettas a rest on this one Jim.
It is too serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:00 AM

The Independent yesterday.

The Foreign Secretary William Hague will summon the Syrian charge d'affairs to the Foreign Office tomorrow in order to express Britain's condemnation of the massacre in Houla.

According to reports from UN observers more than 90 people were killed in villages in the Houla area of central Syria on Saturday.

At least 32 of those killed were children under 10.

Images of the massacre have provoked international outrage, and have prompted William Hague to call for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council in order to plan a response.

Mr Hague has also increased the diplomatic pressure on Syria today.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:05 AM

You've read, the book, seen the movie - now swallow the consequences.
Selling these bastards ant sort of equipment makes us culpable
"express Britain's condemnation "
Sums it up really (having sold them equipment, do FA)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:19 AM

"do FA"

Britain has not done FA.
It is more active than any country in trying to break the log jam caused by Russian intransigence.
You are confusing it with your adopted country perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 12 - 06:32 AM

Ya=eah-yeah - heard it all before, Britain still has sold military equipment to Syria and you have still supported it and called for them to sell more
Byeee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 06:39 AM

Re. those three statements Jim.
Not true, not true, and not true.
Three lies in a single sentence must be a record, even for you.

Now, any contribution to the actual subject under discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Houla horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 07:20 AM

From BBC site today.

Victims of the Houla massacre included dozens of children

Most of the 108 people killed in Syria's Houla region on Friday were summarily executed, the UN says.

A spokesman for the UN's human rights office says witnesses told investigators that pro-regime militias carried out most of the killings.

Survivors have described gunmen entering homes, firing indiscriminately and slitting the throats of children.

The UN statement comes as UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan is meeting President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus.

Rupert Colville, spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told journalists in Geneva that initial investigations suggested that fewer than 20 of the victims in the village of Taldou, near Houla, were killed by artillery or tank fire.

"Most of the rest of the victims in Taldou," he added, "were summarily executed in two separate incidents."

Earlier, survivors who spoke to the BBC said that those who carried out the killings were militiamen - shabiha - from nearby Alawite villages.

Mr Annan called the massacre "an appalling moment with profound consequences".

Western leaders have expressed horror at the killings, and the UK, France and US have all begun moves to raise diplomatic pressure on the Assad government.

The French government said "the murderous folly" of the Damascus regime threatened regional security, and announced it was expelling the Syrian ambassador in Paris.


However Russia, which supplies arms to the Syrian government and has blocked UN resolutions calling for action against Damascus, has blamed both sides for Friday's massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 08:32 AM

Washington Post today.

British officials said Tuesday that the U.K. is expelling three Syrian diplomats in protest at the killings, among them Charge d'Affaires Ghassan Dalla — the country's top ranking diplomat in London.

Hague confirmed that the United States, Canada, Germany, Spain, France, Italy and Australia were all taking action to expel the diplomats.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 08:39 AM

Foreign Secretary William Hague, said: "We are increasing the pressure on the Assad regime and getting the message across that the international community is appalled by the murder of so many innocent people.

"So as part of that pressure today we have again called the Syrian charge in London here to the foreign office.

"He has been given seven days to leave the country. Other Syrian diplomats, two other diplomats, will be expelled at the same time.

"Our allies and partners around the world will be taking similar action.

"Of course we will seek other ways to increase the pressure - we are discussing in the EU a further tightening of sanctions."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:04 PM

All these horrors are caused by our interference in the affairs of other nations, most of which are tribal in culture.

We cynically encouraged "pro-democracy" insurgency in Egypt Libya and Syria without a thought for the probable outcome.....Islamist governments or civil war.

It will take generations to bring "democracy" to these countries with no guarantee that the lot of the people will be improved.
"Democracy" is not the silver bullet, we only have to look at what is happening to our own society for proof of that.

We should keep our snouts out of the business of others.
As a Russian spokesman said today, "the United Nations always makes things worse"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 12 - 04:16 PM

The Arab Spring took the West by surprise.
The West were not responsible for it.
It raised unrealistic expectations and hopes that remain unfulfilled.
Western countries did not intervene in Egypt or Tunisia, and have yet to intervene in Syria.

I do not accept that the horror in Syria was "caused by our intervention."
I would say that it came from within, and is wholly Arab in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 06:58 AM

I have been reading here how the non-intervention policy of the UN was right, how and why it didn't do as it did in Lybya and activly assist the rebels, why it was right for British politicians to say, as they did, that it would be wrong to intervene for fear of what would rplace the Assad regime - why it was permissable to sell small arms ammunition to a regime which had a record of torture and murder (fully reported by Amnesty International).
I wait with bated breath to learn why the world should continue to stand by and watch what is happening in Syria as if it were a Quentin Tarrantino movie.
Leader in this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT
THE ASSAD REGIME BELIEVES THAT IT CAN MURDER WITH IMPUNITY. THE TIME HAS NOW COME TO ACT AND SHOW IT THAT IT IS WRONG
It may be that no one in the presidential pal¬ace in Damascus actually gave the order that pro-regime militiamen should follow up an artillery barrage of a civilian area of the town of Houla with a massacre of child¬ren. They may not have specified the number to be shot in the head, or to have their throats slit, or whether all or some should first be bound. Per¬haps senior officials only demanded a "clean-up" operation, leaving the exact details of the opera¬tion to the initiative of the Shabiha commanders. Those specifics come into clearer and more horrible focus with every hour. Much of the photo¬graphic evidence of what took place is too harrowing to publish. It shows the bodies of young children, some who would never have known what it .was to speak or walk, lying in rows on the floor of a makeshift morgue. The vast majority of these pictures—photographs of toddlers who have suf¬fered gunshots to the head — this newspaper has chosen not to print, out of concern for its readers. But equally out of a duty to inform its readers it has taken the decision that some, at least, of these pictures must be seen.
Those civilians in the village of Taldou who survived by dint of hiding or pretending to be dead are united in their accounts — that the killings were carried out by the Shabiha militia. More than 100 people, 49 of them children, were murdered, as though formally executed, in an act that paral¬lels the worst atrocities of Bosnia or Rwanda; and in a country subject to a diplomatic process involving the United Nations and in an area acces¬sible to observers working for the United Nations. "Never again" has happened again.
There are definitions of what constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity. If these crimes do not satisfy them, the terms are empty. Since protests against his autocracy began 15 months ago, President Assad has made gestures of reform that stand exposed as less even than cos¬metic — as bad jokes. His overriding policy is to eradicate rather than defuse dissent. His principal method is artillery and tank shelling of town after town and village after village—not fortified areas but houses and even field hospitals. His campaign i of barbarism has now extended to crimes that are a class apart even from this.
The regime must have known that its decision to obliterate rather than deal with opposition would produce massacres like Houla. And it isn't difficult to understand what it has been telling itself. Go for it. Kill them, if necessary.
The West, Mr Assad's courtiers will have advised him, lacks any practical appetite to interfere in your war on your own people. Scarred by Iraq, embroiled in Afghanistan, facing elections in America and a continuing economic crisis, it is most unlikely that Western nations will seek another entanglement. The Syrian regime will have calculated that, unlike with Gaddafi's Libya, its government still enjoys the support of one major power — Russia — whose weight will be thrown in the balance against any international intervention. So (Mr Assad's advisers will tell him), smile, say the words, greet Kofi with one hand and with the other destroy the opposition using whatever force is necessary.
The world will express horror at the pictures, sigh a great sigh at the inhumanity of man to man, regret the complexity of the situation in this tinderbox of a region, and then move on. Syria's men abroad will have reported back the broadcast misgivings of former diplomats in Britain and elsewhere that anything useful can be done at all.
There are many things said and written about the legality of intervention in foreign countries. But there has also been, in recent years, a burgeoning if incomplete recognition of what is called the "responsibility to protect". This partly refers to a government's responsibility to keep its citizens from harm, but it also applies to the duty of the international community to make sure that this happens. Put bluntly, the question asks itself in this way: how much more murder has to happen before we feel obliged to take action to stop it?
Houla is the tipping point in Syria. There should be no further period of inaction, of standing by and watching murder and mayhem inflicted on innocents. The Syrian regime has declared •war on the Syrian people, a people we should regard as allies. It is clear, not least from the disgusting apologetics of its foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, that Russia, the country many have hoped would act as an interlocutor with the Assad regime, is actually part of the problem and not the solution. Russia, it seems, wants to hold on to its ally at all costs, especially if those costs are being borne by expendable Syrian children. It is now as relevant for demonstrators to gather outside the Russian Embassy as to protest outside that of Syria. We say this in a spirit of sadness, rather than belligerence. We had desired so much more.
So what can Britain and some of the other friends of Syria actually accomplish? Id the first instance we must try to alter rdadically the balance of calculation being made in Damascus. Singly, or with the help of powers such as Turkey, or in a wider alli¬ance Britain should seek to take active measures , to isolate and discomfort the regime and, more importantly, to protect civilians. The British Government should take the most stringent action it can to cause economic pain to Mr Assad, his family (including those living in this country) and his officials, including the seizure of assets.
It should investigate, without delay, the practicability of establishing safe havens on the border of Syria, Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon, where civilians and opponents of the regime will be guarateed protection from regime forces. These safe havens may require commitment of troops, artillery and air defences. The use of drones for surveillance over civilian areas should be examined. And if necessary the arming of rebels to enable them to resist the regime forces and to protect their own people should be contemplated, and soon.
This newspaper is as wary as anyone in Britain of becoming once again involved in foreign strug¬gles. The country is weary of years of doing so much of the world's military heavy lifting and is anything but flush with public cash. So this is not the way we hoped it would work out. We wanted and argued to give peace a chance, even as it became clear that the Syrian regime had little inter¬est in reform. And it would be possible to look the other way. But what kind of country would Britain be, and what kind of people would young Syrians take us for, if we allowed the slaughter to continue? President Assad should know that the period of "do nothing" is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:05 AM

I wait with bated breath to learn why the world should continue to stand by and watch what is happening in Syria as if it were a Quentin Tarrantino movie.

Here is your answer Jim.(Telegraph today)

With Russian and Chinese support, the UN Security Council on Sunday strongly condemned the Syrian government for using artillery in a massacre in the central town of Houla in which at least 108 people were killed.

But Russia, which along with China has vetoed two UN Security Council resolutions highly critical of President Bashar al-Assad's regime, on Wednesday said it was "premature" for the council to consider new action.

"We believe that a review now by the Security Council of any new measures on the situation would be premature," Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov told the Interfax news agency in comments that appeared to dash Washington's hopes of a change of heart in Moscow.

The US State Department had said on Tuesday it hoped the Houla tragedy would spark a "turning point" in Russia's reluctance to take tougher action against its Soviet-era ally.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:12 AM

The answer was in your Times article Jim!
Did you not read it yourself?
" The Syrian regime has declared •war on the Syrian people, a people we should regard as allies. It is clear, not least from the disgusting apologetics of its foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, that Russia, the country many have hoped would act as an interlocutor with the Assad regime, is actually part of the problem and not the solution. Russia, it seems, wants to hold on to its ally at all costs, especially if those costs are being borne by expendable Syrian children. It is now as relevant for demonstrators to gather outside the Russian Embassy as to protest outside that of Syria."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 07:41 AM

Do you still take the Irish Times Jim?
Today it quoted the socialist President of France.
"Mr Hollande said Moscow and Beijing together presented the main obstacle to the adoption of tougher sanctions against Mr Assad."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 08:19 AM

Does not answer the points made - that ay country could have taken unilateral action and overridden Russia's and China's veto - they have elswher and there is no doubt they would have done had there been national interests, such as OIL.
You are still supporting the massacres by prposing that nothing can be done even MURDOCH'S RAG HAS PROPOSED THEIR SHOULD BE ACTION)and you are still hidingbehing the opinions ofthers What do YOU HNK - should Britain - the US etc step in and stp the mssacres or should the world go on treating it as a spectator sport? answers on a postcard please!!
"The US State Department had said on Tuesday it hoped the Houla tragedy would spark a "turning point" "
Mealy-mouthed bullshit from those who said it and you who support it.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 08:22 AM

Sorry about typos - keyboard playing up again - before your fick friend tries to use it as a diversion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 09:10 AM

that any country could have taken unilateral action and overridden Russia's and China's veto - they have elswhere

Are you incapable of rational thought on this Jim?
The Security Council can not over ride a veto!
That is why stronger UN action is not possible

What "unilateral action" could "any country" take ??!!!!

And you accuse others of talking BS!
Or is it all the fault of your keyboard?

You have absolutely nothing rational or sensible to say have you.
You just pursue your mad vendettas.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 09:15 AM

You left out part of the quote.
"The US State Department had said on Tuesday it hoped the Houla tragedy would spark a "turning point" in Russia's reluctance to take tougher action against its Soviet-era ally."

Mealy-mouthed bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 12 - 03:16 PM

"The Security Council can not over ride a veto!"
There are other sanctions that can be taken, and should have been after Homs
Assad is a war criminal who has sanctioned the slaughter of non-combatants; it falls within the scope of the UN to act on that fact.
Britain and the US were ready enough to look for 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, there was nothing stopping them moving into Syria - as they did Libya.
These are war crimes - they continue to take place while the world stands by with its hands in its pockets.
Leading british politicians made it clear from the beginning that they would not intervene in Syria - they said so in front of an audience and the reason they gave was political, 'you cannot trust a new leadership in Syria to be politically acceptable to the west. Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie said exactly that. Your answer at the time - "The Government does not announce policy on BBC Question Time!" It has no policy to announce - it continues to do nothing. They all share the blame along with the Russians and the Chinese for the slaughter going on there
Even on humanitarian grounds alone they should have taken steps to at least defend the civilians - what was proposed in the Times leader this morning should have happened months ago - no oil, no humanity it seems.
Your continued defence for no inaction makes your croc tears all the more sickening.
And no - not mealy mouthed bullshit I HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT I AM SICKENED BY CAPITALIST RUSSIA'S AND COMMUNIST CHINA'S SUPPORT FOR ASSAD; But I can see no difference in their support for Assad and the West's support by its continued inaction - all of them are facilitating mass murder - which is what you are supporting by claimin nothing can be done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 12 - 03:45 PM

There are other sanctions that can be taken, and should have been after Homs

Yes, and they HAVE been taken.
Taken by EU nations and US and others, but ignored by Russia and China.

Assad is a war criminal who has sanctioned the slaughter of non-combatants; it falls within the scope of the UN to act on that fact.

Russia and China disagree and use their veto to stop it acting.


Britain and the US were ready enough to look for 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, there was nothing stopping them moving into Syria - as they did Libya.
No veto was used to stop UN in those cases Jim

These are war crimes - they continue to take place while the world stands by with its hands in its pockets.

Russia and China refuse to admit that Jim.

Leading british politicians made it clear from the beginning that they would not intervene in Syria - they said so in front of an audience and the reason they gave was political, 'you cannot trust a new leadership in Syria to be politically acceptable to the west. Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie said exactly that. Your answer at the time - "The Government does not announce policy on BBC Question Time!" It has no policy to announce - it continues to do nothing.

Lie Jim.
You know it is a lie because I have posted for you the actions Britain has taken and encouraged other nations to take in concert.
Again you use this thread and this tragedy as a vehicle for your crazed vendetta against Britain.

They all share the blame along with the Russians and the Chinese for the slaughter going on there

That slur is despicable and you can not substantiate it.

Even on humanitarian grounds alone they should have taken steps to at least defend the civilians

Arab league and UN officials have tried and failed.
They idea that Britain should mount an invasion is ludicrous.
You are ludicrous.

Your continued defence for no inaction makes your croc tears all the more sickening.

I do not defend inaction.
Like the leaders of the worlds nations I do not know what action can be taken in the teeth of Russian and Chinese opposition.
"Croc tears" It is a disgusting thing to say about me that I do not really care.
You are disgusting.

I can see no difference in their support for Assad and the West's support by its continued inaction - all of them are facilitating mass murder - which is what you are supporting by claimin nothing can be done.
Then you are truly an ignorant, blind fool.
Their support for Assad and their breaking of all the sanctions is the reason he is able to go on murdering children.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 04:06 AM

Jim, this should reassure you that UK is not being complacent over this.

"The Prime Minister wants to be sure that we are doing all we can to bring an end to the violence in Syria and to support the process of transition.

"The National Security Council considered the range of diplomatic efforts being pursued by the Government and agreed that we need to keep working with our international partners to make clear to the Assad regime that they must comply with the Annan plan, to stop killing and maiming their own citizens and that those responsible for the brutal violence will be held accountable for their actions.

"Our goal is a peaceful political transition and our focus remains on the Annan plan but the Assad regime should not make the mistake of believing that we will abandon the Syrian people.

The spokesman said the UN Human Rights Council will hold an emergency session in Geneva on Friday, at the request of the UK, to discuss the situation in Syria.

"We will keep up these efforts in the weeks ahead to help increase the international pressure on the regime to bring this oppression to an end," he added.

Hague said he would like to see President Assad appear at the International Criminal Court (ICC) over the Houla massacre but there was little hope of the UN Security Council agreeing to refer the regime to the tribunal.

Of course terrible crimes have been committed, there must be no impunity for those crimes."

"Britain has sent teams to the borders of Syria to assemble evidence. We've done that over recent months about earlier crimes that have been committed and we have helped bring together in the international community the ability to collect the evidence about such crimes.

"But this subject takes us back to the problem at the UN Security Council where we have united behind the Annan plan but not behind stronger action.

"To refer Syria, a country which is not a party to the International Criminal Court, to that court would require a resolution of the UN Security Council and there we, of course, are blocked."
Russia and China, both permanent members of the council with the power of veto, have been reluctant to support the action demanded by the UK and others at the international institution.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 11:27 AM

There is no indication here that any action will be taken to stop what i going on in Syria - rather like witnessing a thug kicking somebody to death and telling him that he will eventually be punished for his crimes.
This is transparent bollocks.
Even the establishment-supporting Times ha said so in its leader article, along with immediate proposals of what can be done.
The real "Homs Horror" is that the world has stood by and watched while a war criminal has massacred his own people AND DONE NOTHING
"we are doing all we can" -"discuss the situation in Syria" "make clear to the Assad regime that they must comply with the Annan plan" "assemble evidence" "help increase the international pressure" "there must be no impunity for those crimes."
Days ago people - including 40 odd children, were shot in the back of the head and had their throats cut - name one piece of action in your cut-'n-pastes which will in any way stop it happening again and again and again and again........
How many more massacres have to take place before you sickos demand that positive action takes place - despite your 'worries about he Christians.
I suggest you take your head out of the British establishments arse and look what they are allowing by their inaction.
NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF SYRIA WAS A SIGNIFICANT OIL SUPPLIER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 11:52 AM

None of WHAT would have happened, Jim? What on earth has that to do with it?

And WHAT is this action that we must take, precisely, to ensure an end to these atrocities; and ensure that no regime who will simply do the same things, perhaps to a different lot of people, takes over? ~~ I commend you to a leader in today's Spectator which addresses that precise question.

I am not attacking or opposing you here, Jim. I agree with all you say, up to the point of practicalities. But I am reminded by your assertions of the future Edward VIII meeting the unemployed in the 1930s and declaring, "Something must be done."

Again ~~ WHAT?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 12 - 02:27 PM

Jim.
"you sickos"
Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 02:22 AM

The real "Homs Horror" is that the world has stood by and watched while a war criminal has massacred his own people AND DONE NOTHING

Must you be told again Jim?
Russia and China have blocked every attempt to do something at UN.
Military action just can not be taken without a UN mandate.
Everything else that can be done, is being done.

Arming the rebels?
You and the Saudis in favour.
Everyone else (ie every government in the world except Saudi Arabia) are "sickos."
Go to war without UN backing, and risking miltary confrontation with Russia?
You and the Saudis in favour.
Everyone else "sickos."

You are not the only one who cares Jim.
The world's leaders are doing what they can, but have no solution to offer.
Neither have I.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 12 - 12:42 PM

I am with US and opposed to Russia and China.
Are we in agreement at last Jim?
BBC today.
Meanwhile both China and Russia have reinforced their opposition to foreign intervention in Syria, as Russian President Vladimir Putin arrived in Beijing.

(Reuters) - The U.S. Treasury on Wednesday (today) warned Syria that more than 55 countries would seek to impose "maximum financial pressure" on President Bashar al-Assad's government in an effort to stop his regime's violence against Syrian people.

Addressing officials from Turkey, Japan and other countries, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said he hoped that nations would soon join in taking appropriate actions against Assad's government including, if necessary, "Chapter 7" of the United Nations charter - a measure that could authorize the use of force.

Subject: RE: BS: Hama province horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 04:33 AM

My last post was made before the news broke of the latest horror.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 06:18 AM

"Are we in agreement at last Jim?"
Which bit in particular?
Do I agree that Assad should have been sold anti-riot equipment - nope.
Do I excuse Britain selling him military equipment - nope.
Do I think the Syrian people should not be trusted because of who they might put in Assad's place (and persecute Christians) "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls" unquote - nope.
The pitiful 'sanctions', which were put into place reluctantly and long after the atrocities were takunderweigh have had no effect whatever - as you rightly point out - yet another massacre.
I repeat (you have not responded to my having pointed it out in the past - If there had been oil inlolved, Western forces would have been queuing up to invade, whatever the Russians and Chinese were doing and voting on at the UN
British politicians said as far back as 9th of February that they were not going to get involved (for the same reason you have given here - the Syrian people are not to be trusted to elect a govenment favourable to the West) For once, the politicians have told the truth and stood waving their arms and blustering while massacres have taken place and continue on an almost daily basis.
Nope - nothing there I can bring myself around to accept.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 07:41 AM

So Jim, you still refuse to criticise Russia and China for supplying all the armaments Assad could ever want, and blocking every attempt to take any action against Assad.
Assad is lucky to have so many friends like them, and you.

Do I excuse Britain selling him military equipment
No need Jim.
Britain never did.
Nor any anti riot gear.
What about the countries who do Jim?

British politicians said as far back as 9th of February that they were not going to get involved
Rubbish Jim.
The PM and the Foreign Sec. have done more than any other government to get something done.
I have posted much about it for your benefit.
You should read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 08:30 AM

Sometimes there is nothing to be done that won't make things worse.

The massacres that have taken place in Syria are a nightmare. But military intervention is virtually certain to cause far far more deaths, and even worse massacres can be expected in its wake.

In Libya, which was a far far less complicated situation, the number of people killed by the air war was far higher than the numbers killed in Gaddaffi's repression. It's not a good time for the Tuareg minority.

The Saudi regime isn't supplying arms to the insurgents because it beieves in democracy, or has any particular reluctance to carry out brutal repression itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 10:21 AM

I've continued to condemn the actions of China and Russia throughout this threed - please stop lying about something that is on record.
I see their actions as no better nor worse than the cynical self-interest of Britain, the US and all those who have stood by and watched the Syrian bloodbath because it is not in their political or economic interests to intervene.
"Britain never did."
It is a matter of record that Britain sold small-arms ammunition to Syria - an official British document included in a newspaper report carries that fact and you identified the sale as being 'only sniper bullets' - once again, please stop lying about something that is on record.
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
"The PM and the Foreign Sec."
The British PM has just been on television and said that Assad should be exposed for what he is - no action, just empty rhetoric - again - now that'll have him quaking in his boots, won't it?
The Question Time debaters (with the exception of a stand up comedian) said exactly as you did - the Syrian people are not to be trusted to elect a govenment favourable to the West
Really not interested what the Saudis are doing or why - Britain and the US continue to do nothing and you continue to defend their disgustingly inhuman inaction.
And still no comment on ,"If there had been oil involved, Western forces would have been queuing up to invade, whatever the Russians and Chinese were doing and voting on at the UN"
Keep flying the flag boyo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 12:36 PM

The news from Homs is bad. Hundreds killed in the last few days in that Syrian city alone. Government forces have used heavy weaponry, artillery and tanks to fire indiscriminately at civilian areas. More than 7,000 people are now estimated to have been killed in attempts to put down the uprising which kicked off last March.

The rebellion is part of the Arab Spring which has swept across the Middle East and North Africa, toppling autocratic rulers and giving hope that democracy could blossom across the region.

So it is profoundly depressing to learn that Northern Ireland-manufactured and exported military equipment is being used to against those who have risen up against the rule of President Bashir al-Assad.

Shorland armoured cars – sold by Shorts Bros to the Assad regime in the 1980s (the current President's father ruler for nearly thirty years before Bashir assumed power in 2000) – can be seen patrolling the streets of Homs, bristling with heavy automatic weapons mounted on gunports. Anti-government activists have posted videos and photographs online showing the Northern Ireland exported vehicles being used by both the Syrian army and police force to clear the streets of Homs and other towns across the country.


http://rightsni.org/2012/02/syria-northern-ireland-and-the-un-prep-com-on-the-arms-trade-treaty/

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 12:54 PM

I've continued to condemn the actions of China and Russia throughout this threed
Not true Jim.
You have never once criticised them for demanding that Assad remains in power.
Not once Jim.
Deny that?
You have never once criticised them for blocking action against Assad by the Security Council.
Not once Jim.
Deny that?
You have posted maybe one sentence criticising Russia for supplying the arms used for murdering all those defenceless people and children, but page after page of criticism of Britain for once, years ago, licensing the sale of a few bullets, but not actually supplying anything because Britain does not make that kind of bullet.
Maybe one sentence compared to pages worth.
Deny that Jim?

The British PM has just been on television and said that Assad should be exposed for what he is - no action, just empty rhetoric
Wrong Jim.
Plenty of action from British government.
Name any government that has done more.
Would you like me to list all the actions Britain has taken?
I will do it by PM because it is mostly already posted.

And still no comment on.....
Two comments.
Shite.
Bollocks.
If Assad had been up to his neck in oil the Security Council could still do nothing against the veto.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 01:10 PM

What you seem to be advocating, Jim, is that we should indulge in some good old-fashioned "gunboat diplomacy". I honestly can't see what else you could mean by "If there had been oil involved, Western forces would have been queuing up to invade".

Is that really what you would like to see?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 02:29 PM

Jim, you are Assad's friend.
You posted pages AGAINST those countries who, like Britain, seek his removal from office and power.
You criticise the lack of action but REFUSE to criticise those who block any action.
You only blame those countries who try to take action, and not those who prevent it.

Be clear Jim.
You say you believe in action against Assad.
Britain and US and other Western countries are with you.
Happy with that Jim?
Russia, China and Iran are against you.
Happy with that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 03:00 PM

"What you seem to be advocating, Jim, is that we should indulge in some good old-fashioned "gunboat diplomacy"
No Mike - I am advocating that the UN fulfil its 'Duty of Protection' towards a people who are in a process of being massacred.
Of course I wouldn't want anybody to invade anywhere (though both Britain and the US haven't been backward in doing so where their own interests are concerned - want a list?
I am asking that no more is done than was done in Libya - when your ward seemed to have no qualms as to which way a liberated people would vote one Gadaffi was overthrown.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is right to just stand by and watch while this slaughter is going on? I can give you a few hsitorical precedents where has been demanded if you want.
Maybe we should demand a news blackout so Assad can get on with what he's doing in private and the rest of us can all sleep easier in our beds.
My condemnation of what Russia and China are doing has been a blanket one - damn them all - remember?
This includes those who have done nothing but treat the whole affair as a spectator sport and done nothing - Britain, Ireland, the US.
AND I HAVE AT NO TIME SUGGESTED THAT A MURDEROUS DICTATOR SHOULD BE GIVEN EQUIPMENT TO ENABLE HIM TO CONTINUE MURDERING AND TORTURING HIS PEOPLE
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies." UNQUOTE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 03:18 PM

By the way Mike - I suppose you are aware that Russia's and China's excuse for taking the stance they are on Syria is identical to your argument - that it is wrong for any country to interfere in the internal affairs of another
Strange bedfellows - what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 04:41 PM

By the way Mike - I suppose you are aware that Russia's and China's excuse for taking the stance they are on Syria is identical to your argument - that it is wrong for any country to interfere in the internal affairs of another

They will interfere in any country's affairs when it suits them.
They are lying hypocrites.
The real reason for their stance is their own self interest, and the suffering of the people counts for nothing.

So Jim, are you closer to their non intervention (other than arms supplying) stance, or US, UK and other Western countries who are trying to get Assad out of power?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 05:01 PM

One problem is the Libyan precedent, where a resolution authorising a no fly zone and an imposed ceasefire ceasefire, which was supported by Russia and China was used as a mechanism for legitimising an air war directed at regime change (which caused far more deaths than the previous repression had). That must greatly strengthen the elements within the Russian and Chinese governments which are opposed to any intervention.

For any outside intervention to avoid making things even worse in Syria would require quite extraordinary wisdom and skill, and can anyone seriously believe our governments are capable of exercising those qualities?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 05:14 PM

I have not said anything about its being wrong to interfere in internal affairs, Jim; but armed invasion, which you appeared to be advocating [if you weren't then show where I had misunderstood what I quoted back to you in my last post] is not precisely subsumed under that locution, is it?

I repeat ~ I do in many ways agree with your stance here; but UN intervention, which is the only kind of internal interference which would be acceptable, remains impossible due to the veto operated by Russia & China which the UN & its Security Councli have, by their constitution, no power to override. You know this perfectly well, but really do seem peculiarly reluctant to take that incontrovertible fact on board, and then proceed blame the UK for not flying in the face of it. I fear you sometimes remind me of that person on Koko's Little List in The Mikado, "who praises, with enthusiastic tone ··· every country but his own". What is it that makes you so contemptuous of your own nation, I wonder, Jim? I can't honestly say that it appears to me to be an admirable attitude.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:54 AM

"They will interfere in any country's affairs when it suits them."
So will (and has) Britain and the US - Viet Nam, Iraq... directly and indirectly involved in many wars since the end of WW2 - I seem to remember reading that it had been calculated that the US alone had been involved in at least 50 military and 'intelligence' interventions since the end of WW2 - that particular article was publishes at least 15 years ago - god alone knows what the score is now.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html
They are all lying hypocrites, and ingoring or defending that fact puts you in that league as well.
I am fully aware of the difficulties that China's and Russia's veto
has imposed on the situation, but in perspective, the United States has used its veto power 83 times in the UN, primarily in defence of allies accused of violating international humanitarian law.
This is not just a matter of what is happening in Syria, it calls into question the role and future of the UN - if it can only stand by and watch as a war criminal massacres his people, what the **** is it there for?
And, as I have repeatedly said, the West would have no problem intervening if oil supplies (or revenge-taking for 9/11) were the issue, rather than the massacre of a few civilians!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 04:18 AM

I have repeatedly said, the West would have no problem intervening if oil supplies (or revenge-taking for 9/11) were the issue

Yes it would Jim.
A veto would still block military or other action.

So Jim, are you closer to Russia and China's stance to keep Assad in power, or US, UK and other Western countries who are trying to get Assad out of power, by peaceful transfer if possible?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:14 AM

"Jim, are you closer to Russia and China's stance to keep Assad in power"
Does your stupidity have no limits?
It is you alone on this thread who has proposed that Assad be given equipment to enable him to stay in power.
"Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water. It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies." UNQUOTE
It is you who has attempted to cover up the sales of military equipment to what was already a known terrorist regime before all this started, and attempted to suppress discussion on it with a bullying attempt at "thread drift".
It is you who identified the nature of the equipment, claimed that it was unimportant - 'only' sniper bullets, claimed that the sale was too small to be worth mentioning, claimed that it was so long ago that it didn't matter, claimed that there was no sale, claimed that there was a sale, but it wasn't shipped, then returned to a claim that there was no sale in the first place - where do you stand on all this now Keith - you seem to have lost yourself?
You have never withdrawn your proposal that it would be acceptable to supply crowd control equipment to this murderous regime - do you still believe this to be the case?
Nobody is as close to the Russian, Chinese and Assad position as you are - it's all here in black and white.
I very much doubt that your overtaxed fairy godmother would bother his arse to defend your stupidity and viciousness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:25 AM

Missed a bit
And it is you who has proposed that the Assad regime should continue because of what the Syrians might do to the Christians
"I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:42 AM

It is you alone on this thread who has proposed that Assad be given equipment to enable him to stay in power.

Not true Jim.
Russia China and Iran have actually supplied lethal weaponry used to keep him in power, and we both have deplored it.

China and Russia have stated that the mass murderer of children should stay in power, and given him the means to violently suppress his people.

UN, UK, USA, and other Western countries say he must go, peacefully if possible, and are working towards that end but frustrated by Russia and China.

On this issue we both are lined up with UK and the West against Russia and China.
Do not be ashamed.
We are the good guys on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:54 AM

Missed a bit.
And it is you who has proposed that the Assad regime should continue because of what the Syrians might do to the Christians
Lie.
I do fear for the minorities, but NEVER "proposed that the Assad regime should continue because of" that.
Never Jim.
Deny that?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 07:47 AM

"I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls"
Implicit in this statement Keith - as it was in the minister's statement on television.
Why else would you propose that Assad be supplied with riot control equipment. As you still haven't explained or withdrawn this suggestion I can only assume it still stands.
"We are the good guys on this."
No Keith, you are a political half-wit who has bent over backward to claim I have been supporting these bastards when in fact it is exactly what you have been doing.
You have consistently used your revolting display of sackcloth and ashes to demonise two of the culprits while at the same time attempting to make excuses for the rest of the cynical bunch of thugs.
Don't you dare equate my attitude with yours, which is the usual right-wing garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 08:14 AM

NO.
"that the Assad regime should continue" IS NOT IMPLICIT in the statement that I fear for minorities.
I am sure that you too have concerns for the safety of minorities.
Don't you Jim?
Any thinking, caring person would.

I started this thread because I was horrified by the crimes of Assad.
I still am.
Does that not "equate" with your attitude Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 02:36 PM

Obviousy, no one in this discussion has any power whatsoever in this matter,or any influence as to what is done or not done.

It is absurd to carry it on in terms that could only be relevant if the people taking part were actual or potential agents.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 03:12 PM

Obviously McG.
And obviously, as decent people, we all want an end to the suffering.

Both Jim and I, and I assume everyone else here, thinks Assad must go as part of any solution.

That is not the universal view among governments however.
Iran, Russia and China are determined to keep him in power.
UN, USA, UK and other Western nations say he must go.

Poor Jim is tying himself in knots because he finds himself agreeing with UK, USA (and me!) against Iran, China and Russia on that issue.
This he can not admit without losing his Hard Left cred.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 06:27 PM

What Iran Russia China UN USA UK and Saudi Arabia and Co wish to happen is probably about as irrelevant as what we here want to happen.

The only thing that can make any difference would be direct intervention, and that would almost certainly make things even worse. In the same way that the intervention already being carried out by supplying arms is already making things worse.

The assumption that somehow everything would be fine, or would even be significantly changed, if Assad was out of the picture is very much open to question.

It would be great if somehow everything would be sorted out if "we" did the right thing (whoever "we" might be, and whatever "the right thing" is). But it really doesn't seem too likely to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:34 AM

I agree that there is no avoiding a catastrophe.
I also agree with Jim that the international community has a duty to act to prevent such crimes against humanity as we have seen in Syria.

IMO, Assad is guilty of such crimes, and should not remain in power.
Annan has openly said the same.
Western and Arab League governments have for some time.
Russia and China want him kept in power for reasons of self interest

Concerted action by UN is vetoed.
Military intervention is not considered practical for several reasons, even if there was no veto.
Trade sanctions are ineffective because Iran, Russia and China continue to trade, including supplying more arms.
Economic sanctions by Arab League and West (seizing assets, not buying his oil) have halved the value of the currency and drained his foreign currency reserves. (Yes there is oil Jim.)

The transition of rule is bound to be messy.
The opposition are disparate with many ethnic divisions.
The Un would try to get an agreement for a temporary government of national unity with safeguards for minorities.

I share your sense of hopelessness McG, but our governments should not give up as you seem to be suggesting.

I note you do not criticise the countries arming and supporting Assad McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:45 AM

It would be great if somehow everything would be sorted out if "we" did the right thing (whoever "we" might be, and whatever "the right thing" is).

The "wrong" thing is to supply weapons including heavy weapons to be used against a population.
Iran Russia and China are doing that.

"We"?
I mean us. If we have a view on this we should state it.
I mean our governments who we should expect to try to establish what is the "right thing" or even just the best or least worst thing, and to persuade the international community to cooperate in doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:48 AM

Woops. Sorry.
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:45 AM

It would be great if somehow everything would be sorted out if "we" did the right thing (whoever "we" might be, and whatever "the right thing" is).

The "wrong" thing is to supply weapons including heavy weapons to be used against a population.
Iran Russia and China are doing that.

"We"?
I mean us. If we have a view on this we should state it.
I mean our governments who we should expect to try to establish what is the "right thing" or even just the best or least worst thing, and to persuade the international community to cooperate in doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 03:37 AM

"Any thinking, caring person would."
I believe you to be neither,
You have suggested a way Assad could be helped continue his hold over his people - riot control equipment (still neither explained nor withdrawn - or even referred to - by you, so still your only practical suggestion on the subject).
You have excused Britain having sold him military equipment - by denying the fact that it happened - by minimising the effect of the sale... and numerous other contradictory excuses.
You have desperately attempted to prevent discussion on one of the most fundamental aspects of this whole affair - the sale of arms to tyranical dictators - by describing it as "I hate Britain" thread drift.
You have questioned offering practical assistance to the Syrian people to oppose Assad by suggesting that they pose a threat to others should his regime be overthrown.
You have opposed every suggestion of practical assistance made here and offered none of your own (apart from the riot control equipment, of course).
Not a great deal of either compassion or thought there in spite of all the breast-beating and crocodile tears.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 04:50 AM

I believe you to be neither,

Then you misjudge me again.

You have opposed every suggestion
Lie Jim.
I have opposed not one suggestion.
Count them Jim.
None.

and offered none of your own
This is true.
I have no solutions and have apologised for having none.
I am satisfied that British government and others are doing all that can be done, but hindered by the intransigent self interest of Russia and China

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 05:54 AM

"You have opposed every suggestion of practical assistance made here and offered none of your own"
,.,.,

And what of such do you take yourself to have 'made' or 'offered' here, Jim -- apart from the old gunboat?

If you cannot do better, then you shall not go to the ball!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 08:27 AM

"And what of such do you take yourself to have 'made' or "
Suggest you read the proposals that were posted by me here from the Times leader of a week or so ago - makes sense to me.
"gunboat"
A little beneath even you Mike - sell 'em weapons if they can afford them but don't give them any so they can stop the regime cutting their childrens' throats.
Ever thought you might go into politics - Cameron looks like having to get reid of one or too now they've been caught with their hands in the nation's till.
"I have no solutions..."
Don't be modest Keith - selling Assad riot control gear was a solid enough suggestion.
Those you have rejected include individual nations overriding the veto by offering military assistance, and imposing a trade embargo, to which you replied:
"Those poor people need essential supplies.
The IRC is begging for an opportunity to get stuff in.
What would be the point of your "trade embargo" Jim?
How would that stop the daily massacres"
You don't even read what your own postings, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 08:36 AM

Poor Jim.
As a decent person he wants action against the regime, and Assad out.
Unfortunately for Jim, the US, UK and I agree with him.
How he hates that.
Worse yet, Russia, China and Iran are determined to keep Assad and to sell him all he needs to subjugate his people.

Poor Jim.
Which side are you on, boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 10:09 AM

"Unfortunately for Jim, the US, UK and I agree with him."
The US an Britain have done nothing whatever to remove Assad or to assist the Syrian people in any practical way. Unlike you, with your empty bewailing, they have not pretended otherwise, they said from the beginning that it would be unwise to arm or assist a people who might put into power a government that would not be favourable to the West.
Which side am I on - unlike you, whose only proposal to date has been to suggest supplying the Syrian regime with equipment that would assist it in controlling the dissidents, I support the Syrian people.
As you still have neither withdrawn not explained your obscene proposal - or even had the bottle to acknowledge it, it has stood as evidence of your support for these murderous thugs - no real surprise there.
I don't need to ask you which side you're on - you've made that perfectly clear, despite your efforts to disguise your allegience with mock sympathy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 10:43 AM

"I support the Syrian people"

The "Syrian people" include "these murderous thugs". It's a divided society, getting more divided all the time. If there is anything which outsiders can do to end the killing, joining in on one side isn't likely to be part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 11:08 AM

Jim, I posted in general terms about non lethal riot equipment.
I argued that it does not put down uprisings, indeed it encourages them.
That is why Assad and Hamas prefer the lethal kind.

I am surprised you brought up the trade embargo we discussed back in February.
You WRONGLY stated that US and UK were refusing to impose them.
They DID impose them.
I asserted they would be ineffective in stopping the massacres, and tragically I was proved all too correct.
Mainly because Russia and China were happy to sell Assad whatever he wanted.

I admire you for stating your opposition to Assad, even though it aligns you with Israel against Iran.
None of your old anti Israel mates are willing to back you though.
What a dilemma Jim.
Why not just ramp up the personal abuse and get the thread closed.
It has worked before,

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 11:45 AM

to arm or assist a people who might put into power a government that would not be favourable
And you would Jim.
That puts you in bed with Saudi Arabia too!

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 04:33 AM

Telegraph.
The latest killings have galvanised Western powers into launching a fresh attempt to save Syria sliding into sectarian war between the country's Sunni majority and the president's Alawite Shia sect.

Britain, France and the United States said they were working to introduce a United Nations Security Council resolution imposing sanctions on the Syrian government that would be binding for all member states.

Previous such attempts have been blocked by Russia and China.(Russia has rejected this too)

At the same time, Mr Annan has responded to Western warning that they were close to writing off his plan, which came into force in April, by acknowledging the need for major modifications to save it from total failure.

He has suggested forming a "contact group" bringing together Western and Middle Eastern states, as well as Russia and China, in the hope of ending the international rift over Syria and paving the way for Mr Assad's departure.

But a row immediately erupted after he proposed to include Iran in the group, justifying the move on the grounds that it was "an important country in the region" whose involvement was key to bringing about a solution to the conflict.

Western powers categorically rejected the notion, with Mrs Clinton accusing Iran of "helping to stage-manage the repression" in Syria in order to prop up Mr Assad, a fellow Shia and a key ally of Iran. Britain and France were similarly vocal in their opposition.

"Iran is a country which is supporting some of the unacceptable violence and supporting the Syrian regime in what it's doing to the Syrian people," Alistair Burt, the Foreign Office minister responsible for the Middle East, said.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 05:19 AM

"Britain, France and the United States said they were working to introduce a United Nations Security Council "
Still nothing then - wonder if they's have waited for 18 months and watched so many people meing killed if it had been a threat to their oil supplies
Don't bother to answer; it was arhetorical question.
"It's a divided society,"
No excuse for the inaction that has failed to take even humanitarian steps to intervene - this has now moved into ethnic cleansing - I seem to remember that somebody is being tried for this at the present time.
Jim Carroll

"According to various sources, including the United Nations, up to 14,005–19,770 people have been killed, of which about half were civilians, but also including 6,195–6,770 armed combatants from both sides[25][39][40][41] and up to 1,400 opposition protesters.[22] Many more have been injured, and tens of thousands of protesters have been imprisoned. According to the Syrian government, 10,042–10,346 people, including 3,615 members of the security forces, 2,855–3,160 insurgents and up to 3,600 civilians, have been killed in fighting with what they characterize as "armed terrorist groups."[31] To escape the violence, thousands of Syrian refugees have fled the country to neighboring Jordan,[42] Lebanon and Turkey.[43] The total official UN numbers of Syrian refugees reached 42,000 on April,[44] while unofficial estimates on 1 June stood at as many as 180,000."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 06:52 AM

"Britain, France and the United States said they were working to introduce a United Nations Security Council resolution imposing sanctions on the Syrian government that would be binding for all member states."
Still nothing then
No Jim, however ever hard the good guys try, Russia and China block every attempt.
Which side are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 07:02 AM

BBC
Russia will continue to oppose attempts by the UN Security Council to sanction military intervention in Syria, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said.

Mr Lavrov also repeated calls for an international conference to implement the peace plan drawn up by UN special envoy Kofi Annan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18383746

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 09:17 AM

Telegraph today.
(William Hague, UK Foreign Sec) told Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News the continued political and trade isolation of Syria was the second best option. What was needed was a united way forward, he said.

Asked whether the Government had ruled out military intervention, Mr Hague said: "I think we don't know how things are going to develop. Syria is, as I said in the last couple of weeks, on the edge of a collapse or of a sectarian civil war so I don't think we can rule anything out.

"But it is not so much like Libya last year, where of course we had a successful intervention to save lives.

"It is looking more like Bosnia in the 1990s, being on the edge of a sectarian conflict in which neighbouring villages are attacking and killing each other so I don't think we can rule anything out.

(Note to Jim, Bosnia had no oil. Syria has.
That answers your "rhetorical" question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 02:51 AM

Jim, you will approve of this.
It is from the Palestinian publication "Shoa"

http://www.shoah.org.uk/2012/06/05/uk-to-set-up-camps-inside-syria-to-help-zio-nato-rebels/

Which side are you on Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 04:45 AM

"Note to Jim, Bosnia had no oil. Syria has."
Noteto Keith:
"Syria's oil reserves are being gradually depleted and reached 2.5 billion barrels in January 2009. Experts generally agree that Syria will become a net importer of petroleum by the end of the next decade." - unquote.
Syria has no significant oil supplies, hence the continued inaction on the massacres on the bart of Britain and the US.
"Britain, France and the United States said they were workingto introduce a United Nations Security Council resolution "
Somewhere over the rainbow - yet again - 18 months since the killing began and we are still beingtold what the UK, US and the UN ARE GOING TO DO RATHER THAN WHAT IT IS DOING TO HELP PREVENT THE MASSACRES AND RELIEVE THOSE UNDER THREAT
Do I agree that refugee camps should be set up to give aid and a degree of protectionto those in danger of being slaughteresd by the Assad regime?
Yes, I most certainly do - why don't you? It is one of the suggestions made in the Times leader two weeks ago (posted by me and ignored by you).
Do I agree with the interpretation put on it by the Shoah artical (sourced from one of Britain's leading tits-'n-bums publications)? No, of course I don't - and I have contempt for those, particularly yourself, who has put so much time and effort into trying to show that the Syrian people are not to be trusted and therefore not be saved from the carnage that is going on, and who would use such an interpretation for not helping those in the process of being massacred - you sink lower each time you put finger to keyboard.
Do I believe it should have happened a year ago when Assad seriously began to massacre his opponents on a grand scale?
Yes I do - and a lot more.
I also believe it would have happened immediately, had Syria been a major contender in the oil supply market, which you now appear to be trying to prove is the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 04:56 AM

Syria has no significant oil supplies, hence the continued inaction on the massacres on the bart of Britain and the US

It has 2.5 BILLION barrels more than Bosnia had, and NATO intervened there to save lives.
Intervention in Syria will be very bloody and very costly, and will only be contemplated as a last resort.
The British government is now talking of intervention.
Your Palestinian friends are certain that Britain is already doing everything you demanded, and more.
Confusingly for you, they object to anything that will assist the "ZIO-NATO" rebels against Assad.

Are you ZIO-NATO on this issue Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 05:07 AM

You and Israel now speak with one voice Jim.
We really are on the same side now.
No more arguments for us.http://www.shoah.org.uk/category/zionism/

Mofaz, a former top general and political centrist who joined Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's conservative coalition government last month, said Israel had limited options on Syria but had to lobby for international action.

"We need to enlist the West. We need our voice to be heard. This slaughter is being carried out not far from Israel's border," he said.

"We cannot get involved, for understandable reasons. But I think that the West, led by the United States, has an interest in guarding the threshold (so) genocide does not take place."

Speaking separately on Israel Radio, Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said the Netanyahu government was prepared to help Syrians who take refuge in Jordan and other countries with ties to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 05:53 AM

"Are you ZIO-NATO on this issue Jim?"
Nope - are you now opposing your beloved leader.
You can now safely change your policy to supporting intervention without fear of being struck down by a thunderbolt from Downing Street
You really are a slimeball, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

WE CAN'T RULE OUT INTERVENTION, SAYS HAGUE, IN A SYRIA THAT LOOKS LIKE BOSNIA IN THE 90s.
Anthony Loyd Reyhanli, Turkey Sam Coates Deputy Political Editor

The bloodshed in Syria resembles that of Bosnia in the 1990s, William Hague said yesterday, invoking the memory of a conflict in which 12,000 British troops were sent to help to stop the killing.
The Foreign Secretary's comments came as a key Syrian rebel medical group on the border with Turkey told The Times that the West was failing to provide the promised aid to help the opposition movement. Meanwhile, the new head of Syria's main opposition group said that the regime was on its "last legs". Abdel Basset Sayda, a Kurdish activist, said: "The multiplying massacres and shellings show that it is struggling."
In the most recent episode, 20 people, mostly women and children, were killed in a bombardment of the city of Daraa over the weekend.
Mr Hague indicated yesterday that Britain would not rule out military action as the death toll from the conflict passed 14,000 in the 15-month conflictThe comparison with Bosnia is a significant moment, however, reminding the international community of the inaction that led to tens of thousands of deaths at the hands of Bosnian Serbs.
"Syria is... on the edge of a collapse or of a sectarian civil war so I don't think we can rule anything out," he said. "It is looking more like Bosnia in the 1990s, being on the edge of a sectarian conflict in which neighbouring villages are killing each other."
Within weeks of the conflict in Bosnia breaking out in 1992, thousands of refugees were herded into concentration camps where they suffered atrocities at the hands of Bosnian Serbs.
Despite full knowledge of the international community, it took three years including the massacre of 8,000 men and boys at Srebrenica before a brief bombing campaign in 1995 enforced a peace settlement that could have been achieved much earlier.
Mr Hague said that he "welcomed in principle" the Russian proposal for an international conference on Syria, but said that it must "not just buy time for the regime to kill more people". It would be hard to see how Iran could attend the conference, one of Russia's demands, as it had supported Syria.
The British Government had already provided £8.5 million towards helping alleviate the humanitarian situation, he said. However, a rebel doctor running the clandestine operation to smuggle supplies across the border from Turkey into Syria has questioned the scale of international commitment. He told The Times that all their medical supplies came from private sources not government. "Not a single country except France, who gave us a one-off do¬nation of €10,000, has given us any help at all," Omar al-Bunii said.
"These supplies are from private donors among Syria's expatriate community. There have been many promises of non-lethal aid. So far it has been just chat."
In the past month more than 500 wounded have been smuggled across the border for treatment in Turkey — 150 in the last ten days alone. Many die of their wounds long before they reach the border. "About 7 out of 10 deaths could be prevented if we had the right equipment," Dr al-Bunii added as his staff frantically distributed trauma kits to be rushed across the mountain to casualties of the latest atrocity at Maraat al-Numan, a town in northern Syria.
Ten months ago Dr al-Bunii and four other doctors established the Union of Free Syrian Doctors, to set up and supply a chain of secret field hospitals and clinics inside Syria. The organi¬sation, which now has logistics depots in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan, has 100 doctors inside Syria and another . 300 doctors worldwide collecting supplies to ship to frontier areas, to be carried across by couriers at night.
Yet not even the Syrian National Council, the diverse political body representing the revolution whose new leader, Abdulbaset Sieda, was appointed yesterday, has managed to secure it funding. "They visited us and gave us words not pennies," Dr al-Bunii said.
Working in the group is risky. Of the original five founding members, four are now in Syrian jails, with 25 other doctors from the organisation found treating casualties opposed to the regime. The Army burns down the field hospitals and regularly kills couriers.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:02 AM

I suppose it must be difficult now a leading Tory minister is supposting "ZIO-NATO on this issue"
Yet another article from this morning's Times
Jim Carroll

NEUTRALITY FAVOURS THE AGGRESSOR, AND DOING NOTHING LEADS TO MORE SAVAGERY
Indiscriminate bombardment, massacre and atrocity; a savage and implacable army running amok among a civilian population while the international community stands impotent at the ringside wringing its hands: I have seen this war before, 20 years ago in Bosnia.
William Hague was entirely correct in comparing the diabolical rampage of the Syrian regime with that of Serbian forces in the breakaway republic of the former Yugoslavia. Then, as now in Syria, President Slobodan Milosevic and his cartel of cronies counted on non-intervention to stoke ethnic hatred, unleashing well-armed forces to commit the worst bloodbath in Europe since the end of the Second World War. By the time that belated Nato airstrikes ended the conflict, more than 100,000 people were dead.
In an echo of the current pattern of killing in Syria, Bosnian Muslims were hobbled by an international arms embargo that allowed well-supplied Serb paramilitary units and militias to kill with impunity across swaths of territory, reducing cities to ruins with punitive artillery bombardments. Today President Assad's shabiha killers act in a way identical to yesteryear's Serb irregulars, who slaughtered men, women and children with such relish.
Although in Bosnia the United Nations did at least manage to agree to supply humanitarian aid to the war's victims, the debate on an escalated intervention continued using precisely the same vernacular as is used now over Syria, in which , exaggerated worst-case scenarios are used to justify non-intervention.
It may well be true that the stakes are much higher in Syria than they ever were in Bosnia. That country's war was never likely to spread outside the former Yugoslavia, while Syria's revolution could turn into a proxy war between regional Shia and Sunni powers and spill over into neighbouring countries. But after three years of escalating killing in Bosnia, the international community finally recognised that neutrality favours the aggressor and that non-intervention, rather than allowing the fires to dim, antagonises the savagery and violence.
The very same lesson is being relearnt in Syria where it is all too likely, if intervention is shunned, that the worst-case scenario of implosion and regional war will indeed become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:18 AM

I posted Hague's announcement yesterday.
Did you miss it?

No sensible person wants a military intervention.(except you obviously Jim)
It can only be as a last resort, as the least bad option.
It would be a crime to resort to arms before every other option, diplomatic, economic sanctions, trade sanctions, were exhausted.

At least we agree that Assad can not be left in power, and that action of some sort is needed to save lives.
You and I are on the side of the good guys, UK, USA, Israel, against those who provide Assad with the materiel to crush the opposition.
Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Hezbollah.
All your ex-mates Jim.
Good to have you on board at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 07:14 AM

You have been opposing the use of military intervention from the beginning - every argument on the subject by you has ruled it out because the Syrians are not to be trusted with equipment to defend themselves. Your fairy godmother even went as far as to describe it as "gunboat diplomacy" in line with teh stance taken by the Russians and the Chinese. The responsibilty for every drop of civilan blood spilt in Syria over the last year is shared by those who have stood on the sidelines and their supporters. "I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
"Military intervention is not considered practical for several reasons, even if there was no veto."
Can't say clearer than that.
As I said - an utter slimeball. About turn - quick march - left, left, left - (whoops - sorry) right, right, right. Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 08:14 AM

You have been opposing the use of military intervention from the beginning
This is true.
I still believe invasion should be a last resort.
You and your new mates Israel and Saudi were well to the Right of me on that, wanting it from the start.
You old fascist you.

You and I were always in agreement that Assad was guilty of crimes against humanity.
Not like your ex mates the Palestinians and the rest.
Now we are together behind UK,USA and Israel.

We have only disagreed over the spurious issues you raised on this thread.
On the question of Assad we were always as one.
We are friends on this.
Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 09:19 AM

Piss off Keith -
Having opposed any action whatever to help the Syrians you are now attempting to back-pedal on that stance
"We have only disagreed over the spurious issues "
No we haven't I believe the suggestion of supplying Assad with riot control equipment to be an obscene one - and far from spurious - though I suppose someone would sugget it so to believe it was.
I believe anybody wh sustifies selling Assad 'only sniper bullets' at the time that the Homs massacres of civilians was emerging to be, again obscene and far from spurious
"You old fascist you."
And I believe anybody who would make such suggestions and out-and-out supporter of fascism at its worst.
I don't see any friends of yours here - excelt your fairy godmother of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 09:47 AM

Having opposed any action whatever to help the Syrians

How can you type such a lie Jim?
I started and restarted this thread because I was horrified by Assad's crimes against the Syrian people.
Deny that Jim?
I supported all the sanctions taken against him, which but for you ex friends Russia, China and Iran would have brought him down.
Deny that Jim?
All you wanted to do was fabricate crimes by Britain, a country that has done as more than any other to support the Syrians, short of supplying more weaponry.

Keep this up and I might have to break off our friendship.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 11:49 AM

"Piss off"; "slimeball"; "obscene" ...

Why, Jim, in pursuing your perfectly tenable, tho clearly far from indisputable, views on this topic do you have to be so persistently & distressingly RUDE? It alienates good will from your arguments, and from yourself. I know you have this funny joke about my being K's 'fairy godmother' ~~ I have never met Keith, & I haven't quite worked out yet quite what you mean by it, but at least it isn't as foulmouthed as so many of your denunciations; which, I would point out, are in marked contrast to the unfailingly courteous tone of Keith's entries. I have cast no spell on him to make it so; but I warn you again that if you don't wash your mouth out with soap you will not be fit to go to the ball...

Now, seriously, I do genuinely think it would advantage you to mind your manners and not be such an unmannerly pig ~~ which appears the image you seem for some reason thus far intent on cultivating.

I say all this for your own good, you know. You will thank me when you have grown out of this irritating phase, I promise.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:51 PM

I'm not too clear why Keith and Jim seem so hostile to each other, since both appear to see military intervention in Syria, at some stage, as being the right course of action,rather than as a predictable way of making a terrible situation far worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 01:08 AM

McG. I have been making that point to Jim.
It just makes him even more hostile.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:23 AM

This is scary.
Does it give you pause for thought Jim?
From an International Socialist site about Russian military intervention.http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/rusy-j12.shtml



the secretary-general of the Collective Security Treaty Organization, Nikolai Bordjusha, had held out the possibility of using "peacekeepers" in Syria. "The task in Syria is likely to be to impose peace—primarily against the insurgents, who use weapons to solve political problems."

Russia and China strongly oppose a military intervention by NATO in Syria, and have already blocked two UN resolutions on the issue.

On Monday last week, three Russian warships were sighted off the Syrian coast. An anonymous source from the Russian government told the Iranian newspaper Tehran Times that Moscow wants to show NATO that it will not allow any military operation against Damascus under the guise of a humanitarian mission.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev warned that a military intervention in Syria could quickly escalate and lead to the use of nuclear weapons.

The growing threat of war in the Middle East—and the fact that the European countries, including Germany and France, are siding with the United States—is increasingly driving Russia into a military alliance with China.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 09:58 AM

Keith;
"Russia and China strongly oppose a military intervention by NATO in Syria"
Whatever line the Russians and the Chinese have taken on Syria, it shouldn't make the slightest difference to your own as - taking your own words as a guide -   
"Military intervention is not considered practical for several reasons, even if there was no veto."
Your own opinion reflects theirs perfectly, so what's your gripe with their using a veto that ends up achieving something you support?
Yes, they have sold weapons to Syria, just as Britain sold small arms ammunition to Assad, which was possibly used against the people of Homs, or at the very least, to train the snipers who slaughtered so many people there.
You claim we basically agree - I support neither: you pay lip service to condemning one while defending the other (by denying that the sale took place, you having identified the equipment sold, by belittling its importance because of the size of the sale and the date it took place, by claiming (without evidence) thaat the sale was agreed, but the licence was withdrawn.... and a whole host of other excuses.
Mike
I find Keith one of the most offensively racist, hypocritical and dishonest individuals I have ever debated with.
I was not brought up to pass by on the other side - sorry
Can't help but notice that you choose not to discuss the fact that your own stance (gunboat diplomacy) coincides with that of Russia and China)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:32 AM

Can't help but notice that you choose not to discuss the fact that your own stance (gunboat diplomacy) coincides with that of Russia and China)
Jim Carroll ...
.,.,
That is not my stance, Jim; I haven't one, in particular, except concern & grief at another of those situations. It is my gloss on how I perceive yours.

No-one expects you to 'pass by on the other side'. I recognise that you are a man of strong moral principles which you are intent on expressing and upholding. I much respect this in you, even when my opinions do not coincide with yours. But I find much of the terms in which you choose to express these absolutely counterproductive. One feels that, if you can't argue with someone without calling him a slimeball or enjoining him to piss off, the force of your arguments is concomitantly diminished. Incontinent unmannerly foulmouthed denunciation is not a sign of strong involvement, but of weak arguments IMO. A point I think you should consider.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 10:34 AM

Jim, no sniper rifles or sniper ammunition was ever supplied to Syria by Britain.
That is why you have never found any evidence for it, apart from my mistaken post which I have often explained.
If you say Britain did, then we do disagree on that, and you are wrong.

I do not believe any of the licenced bullets were supplied all those years ago BECAUSE BRITAIN DOES NOT MAKE THEM!

We do agree that Assad is a criminal, responsible for mass murder of civilians and should not be in power.

I think you are foolishly naive of the likely catastrophic outcome of an invasion by Britain or NATO.
Have you studied any informed opinion?
try thishttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17356556

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 11:35 AM

Jim Carroll,
You call me dishonest when I never lie.
Worse, you call me racist.
I am no racist and it follows that I have never made any racist post.
I have shown that the posts you singled out are not racist.
Michael has seen the same posts and finds no racism.
Michael is of a much persecuted ethnic minority, and well placed to judge.

The rules laid down for the site forbid personal attacks.
Calling me racist is about as personal an attack as can be contemplated.
I have objected to this abuse before and will again make a formal complaint if you persist with it.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 01:11 PM

"You call me dishonest when I never lie."
You lie and distort constantly Keith - and when challenged and presented with contrary evidence you refuse to withdraw your distortions - plenty of examples to be had here on this thread and elsewhere.
You are lying here about the "sniper ammunition" - you identified it as such, then realising what a foot-in-mouth you had made (at a time when snipers were slaughtering civilians in Homs) you then presented tha host of different explanations for the sale (which is officially documented),
Here's a sample.
"A private individual applied for the licence to supply."
"I know that a licence was issued years ago for much less than a year's supply of ammunition."
"A licence was issued and revoked for some small arms ammunition, but probably none supplied."
"The licence was revoked and I do not believe that any was supplied."
"Your Guardian "data blog" refers to one licence for a small amount of small arms ammunition.
"So one individual bought some cheap ammo on the international market and sold it on."
"Not British ammunition."
"....and the licence was revoked."
These have all been made up by you - you have provided no evidence for any of them.
Sorry Keith - that is lying, whichever colour you choose to paint it.
"I am no racist and it follows that I have never made any racist post.
"
Describing the entire male British Pakistani population as being "cultually implanted" to make them paedophiles is a racist post.
Attributing it to a politician and then failing to provide evidence, is being a lying racist.
These are not "personal attacks" - they are responses to what I believe to be your racist and untruthful statements.
You are lying now - you have said you explained your "mistake" about the sniper bullets - you haven't - if you have, where is that explanation.
I don't know you, I have never met you, I don't want to meet you, I find your reviews repulsive.
For the sake of this forum, please leave me alone - go and do your 'old man of the sea' act with someone else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 02:28 PM

You can not possibly believe that I somehow knew about a batch of bullets all those years ago and let it slip by mistake.
I have no way of knowing about them have I???
I made a mistake.
You brought up a whole plethora of countries and weapons.
The sniper rifles actually related to Libya.
You know all this because I have apologised for my mistake several times.
The actual bullets.
We only have evidence of a licence.
I do not believe they were supplied, because we do not make them.
You were provided evidence of the weapons and ammunition they use and we don't make!

You are simply lying about my post that you imagine was racist.
I made no such claim.
This has been put before you many times over these 17 months.
You have made a fool of yourself with you obsessive, groundless, delusional hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:07 PM

"I made a mistake."
No you didn't - you attempted to defuse the fact that Britain sold bullets to Syria - and it blew up in your face - Syria came as a nnon-runner when all the other excuses had failed (all half donen of them) - you lied Keith and you continue to lie to cover up that lie.
"I made no such claim"
Yes you did Keith and I've reproduced it dozens of times - you are once again lying - would you like me to reproduce your posting yet again?
You blamed the statement on Jack Straw and have singularly failed to produce even the remotest semblance of a quote
That's the trouble with lying on line - it doesn't go away when you wish it would.
I won't even bother about you lying accusations for my support for Hezbollah, Russia, China... and your failure to produce either proof or a withdrawal.
Now go and lie for England elsewhere (and get somebody else to carry you across the stream)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:49 PM

defuse the fact that Britain sold bullets to Syria

Do not be silly Jim.
I said I did not believe it in spite of the licence, because we do not make their bullets.

You blamed the statement on Jack Straw

No I did not.
I said I believed the statement because a number of people from within the community, or like Jack straw having long and intimate knowledge of the community, said it was so.

leave me alone
Gladly Jim. Stop theses stupid personal attacks and I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 02:49 AM

Let's have no more of that peurile nonsense.

Meanwhile the real story moves on.
UN Head of Peacekeeping says the situation is now civil war.

Clinton accuses Russia of cynically and blatantly lying about its arms shipments, and of now sending more attack helicopters.

New massacres are feared but expected in al Haffeh and other places.
UN observers prevented from reaching them.

There is a humantarian crisis as civilians are made homeless and deprived of any aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:19 AM

puerile

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:24 AM

There has been a humanitarian crisis in Syria for over a year now and nothing practical has been done to stop it escalating to where it is now at.
The Syrian people themselves have said "THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP". Inaction on the part of the UN (who, despite the vicious intervention by Russia and China, could have done far more than they have) and the cynical decision by the US and Britain not to become practically involved because of (in their own words) the possible alternatives to Assad, has done much to drive the people of Syria into the arms of the extremists.
None of this would have happened if the west's oil supplies had been in any way threatened.
Not only have the people of Syria been subjected to wholesale slaughter, but the credibility of the UN has been damaged, hopefully, not beyond repair.
This started as a protest against the lack of democracy in a viciously repressive feudal country, if it has escalated into something else; the blame lies to a large extent way beyond the borders of Syria.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 04:00 AM

Inaction on the part of the UN (who, despite the vicious intervention by Russia and China, could have done far more than they have
Wrong.
Nothing can be done by UN against a veto.

Britain not to become practically involved because of (in their own words) the possible alternatives to Assad,

"own words"?
Wrong. No ministerial announcement had those words.
I myself have posted several ministerial statements of actual practical action that has been and is being taken by Britain.

The EU oil embargo of which Britain played a part has cost Assad four billion US dollars and halved the value of the Syrian pound.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:31 AM

600 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 03:23 AM

Telegraph today.

Russia confirmed that it was preparing to send an elite unit of marines to its naval base in Syria on Monday, sharply raising the stakes in its confrontation with the West over the future of the Assad regime.

Russia was particularly unnerved after William Hague, the (British) Foreign Secretary, and other Western officials compared the slaughter in Syria to the civil war in Bosnia in the 1990s, a Western defence official said The planned deployment was designed to send a powerful signal that Russia would not tolerate foreign military intervention in Syria, according to a Western defence source.

It was apparently ordered after the Kremlin came to conclusion that Western powers were preparing to circumvent the United Nations Security Council – where Russia holds a veto – by unilaterally authorising Nato military action in Syria. The source said that Russia had "completely misunderstood" Western intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 08:01 AM

BBC an hour ago.
UK has made moves to stop a cargo vessel allegedly carrying refurbished Russian-made attack helicopters from completing its journey to Syria while it was about 50 miles (80.4km) off Scotland's north coast.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:14 AM

Telegraph today.
"I am pleased that the ship that was reported to be carrying arms to Syria has now turned back apparently towards Russia," Mr Hague said.

"We have in place a European Union arms embargo on Syria. We discourage anyone else from supplying arms to Syria. We have had discussions with Russia about that specifically."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:35 AM

"The EU oil embargo of which Britain played a part"
As there is no recorded sale of oil to Britain by Syria, it is puzzling as to exactly what part they played in the embargo and, as has been already pointed out, Syria's oil supply will have been depleted within ten years.
"Syria's oil reserves are being gradually depleted and reached 2.5 billion barrels in January 2009. Experts generally agree that Syria will become a net importer of petroleum by the end of the next decade." - unquote"
Last week it was reported that a six year old girl was gang-raped by five of the government militia - the event was filmed.
Apparently the 'European Arms embargo' includes arms from Europe to help the Syrian people defend themselves from this bestiality.
And still, in the words of the Syrians themselves:
"THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:45 AM

Oil is by far Syria's biggest export and source of foreign currency.
Your statements Jim refer to proven reserves, but a massive exploration project is underway.
Such things are not undertaken without good evidence of likely success.

Jim, I expect you would like to commend Britain for its action over the helicopter shipment.
No other country has achieved such a result.
The rebels will be heartened and grateful that Britain has not forgotten them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 04:03 AM

Guardian.
"This is trying to hit the oil that's a critical financial lifeline to the regime," said an EU official.

While the move will barely have any impact on EU energy needs, it is likely to hurt elite business and government circles in Damascus close to the regime of the president, Bashar al-Assad, since Syria's trade relationship with Europe is almost entirely oil-based.

The EU imports only 1.5% of its crude oil from Syria. But 92% of Syrian exports to Europe are energy products. Syria exported crude oil and petroleum products worth €3.1bn to the EU last year, according to European commission figures. Royal Dutch Shell and the French company Total are the two biggest European players in the Syrian energy market.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:10 AM

"Jim, I expect you would like to commend Britain for its action over the helicopter shipment."
I damn them all - you includedd for doing nothing practical whatever to stop the slaughter and I would count people like you who not only support that inactivity for claiming it would be wrong to assist them to remove a monster
"I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:15 AM

You are such a militarist imperialist Jim.

I would only advocate military invasion as a last resort.
I do fear for the minorities.
Any thinking, caring person would.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:23 AM

Jim, you just posted "people like you who not only support that inactivity for claiming it would be wrong to assist them to remove a monster" ?

It is a lie.
I have advocted action to remove him from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 08:18 AM

Jim Carroll: "And still, in the words of the Syrians themselves:THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE ABANDONED US. NOW WE JUST ASK GOD FOR HELP"

...and do you think that they should have waited so long?...or God can't help them?...or won't??...or their 'God' has been replaced by 'religion'?...and we all know that religion, has been, yet another oppressor..............but God isn't.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 01:34 PM

"I have advocted action to remove him from the start."
Not one word - you have persistently advocated doing nothing - you have opposed the only thing that would remove Assad - active opposition in support of democracy in Syria - what the Arab Spring was all about. Your opposition to this is in line with the official British one - the Syrian people cannot be trusted to replace Assad with a leadership acceptable to the west, so it is rght that the world stands by and watches while the massacres continue.
You have even suggested that the perpetrator be provided with suitabl equipment to suppress democratic protest - riot control gear.
You have denied your own statement that Britain supplied him with sniper rifle bullets.
Throughout this thread you have lied and distorted the facts (even those identified by you) and the statements of others - .
Since I have been aware of your presence, you have supported some of the most horrific human rights abuses to take place within my liifetime - the Shatila and Sabra massacres - the Israelis can't have been responsible because they didn't do it; Brievik - must have been insane because he is a Christian racist (while a Muslim guilty of killing people for the same reason) - must have been sane because he was a Muslim.
All a bit of a mess really.
Sorry GFI - didn't understand a word of that - what god? All superstious gibberish and mumbo-jumbo to me I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 02:17 PM

you have persistently advocated doing nothing
Not true.
I have only been hesitant about military intervention
I am surprised that you are so gung ho.

- you have opposed the only thing that would remove Assad - active opposition in support of democracy in Syria
No I have not!
You just made that up!

Your opposition to this is in line with the official British one - the Syrian people cannot be trusted to replace Assad with a leadership acceptable to the west
Lie.
That is not the official or unofficial British line.
The British line is that Assad must go.

so it is rght that the world stands by and watches while the massacres continue.
It would not be and the world has not.
Not the West anyway.
The actions taken by Western countries would have brought Assad down but for Russian intransigence.

You have even suggested that the perpetrator be provided with suitabl equipment to suppress democratic protest - riot control gear.
Non lethal equipment does not suppress protest.
I suggested it was better than lethal bullets but you disagreed.
Assad is not interested in non lethal because he does want to suppress the rising.

You have denied your own statement that Britain supplied him with sniper rifle bullets.
Yes, because it was a mistake.
I do not have any secret knowledge about sniper bullets
I am Keith A not James B!

Throughout this thread you have lied and distorted the facts (even those identified by you) and the statements of others - .
A bit rich in view of the above!
I have not lied on this or any thread.
It is not what I do.
I do not understand why you think it worth doing.

Since I have been aware of your presence, you have supported some of the most horrific human rights abuses to take place within my liifetime - the Shatila and Sabra massacres
Lie, and a really nasty one this time.
Of course I have done no such thing.
No-one would.

- the Israelis can't have been responsible because they didn't do it; Brievik - must have been insane because he is a Christian racist (while a Muslim guilty of killing people for the same reason) - must have been sane because he was a Muslim.
What have those mad statements got to do with me Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 02:29 PM

You have done it again Jim!
Instead of discussing the issue, you attack me, and with false, made up accusations that I feel bound to refute.

Stop doing it!
Stick to the subject.
Even if I really was a monster, just point out where you think my view is mistaken and give your own.

(but give my actual view, and not your imaginary monster's view)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 03:32 PM

Keith, It is a tactic, not a good one, but the only one they know, because their particular political position is built on programmed propaganda, not facts. It's all they got.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:11 PM

It is so strange.
Off politics, normal nice people.
Do they know themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:36 PM

You never ever get any sensible comment or input from Christmas.

He makes stuff up then persists in belabouring you over things you have never sent and taking you to task for points of view that you have never espoused. When asked to produce quotes to substantiate his lies, he froths, rages and deflects.

I have a question for him.

If he maintains that Assad must be got rid off and even supports that this be done by force. Can he explain why he reserves such venom for the likes of the EU, the UK and the USA for apparently doing nothing to aid the Syrians, but does he not utter so much as a cheep about the actions of the Russians who are doing absolutely everything they possibly can to keep "this monster" (as Christmas refers to him) in power?

Particularly liked this bit of logic - a pity he does not apply it across the board.

"As there is no recorded sale of oil to Britain by Syria, it is puzzling as to exactly what part they played in the embargo"

Oh you mean much the same as:

"As there is no recorded sale of weapons to Syria by Britain, it is puzzling as to exactly what part they played in the massacre of civilians in Homs"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:20 AM

BBC.
UN peace envoy Kofi Annan has said there is international agreement that a transitional government should be set up in Syria.

This could include both members of the government and opposition, he said after talks in Geneva.

Speaking on behalf of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council - the US, UK, France, Russia and China - British Foreign Secretary William Hague said all five were committed to supporting Mr Annan's efforts.

Russia had blocked a provision in Mr Annan's plan that would have called for Mr Assad to step down to make way for a unity government.

Mrs Clinton told reporters after Saturday's talks: "Assad will still have to go... given the blood on his hands."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:25 AM

TIME yesterday.

Delegations from Iran, Zimbabwe, Bahrain, Pakistan and Uganda, among many others, came to the (Russian Arms)fair last week, but the Syrian presence was the most controversial. Since the 1950s, when it first became a client state of the Soviet Union, Syria has purchased almost all of its weapons from Russia, making it a cherished customer. Over the past 16 months, Syrian forces loyal to President Bashar Assad have used these weapons to brutally crush a homegrown rebellion, with the death toll now estimated at 14,000, including thousands of women and children. The rest of the Arab world has joined with the West in condemning these massacres, but that has not stopped the flow of Russian arms. Indeed, the Kremlin seems willing to jeopardize its relations with Europe and the U.S. in order to defend Assad and continue to sell him weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 08:40 AM

Guardian today.

Activists say the army and pro-government militiamen killed 200 people in the village on Thursday. The Syrian government blamed "terrorist groups".

Mr Annan accused the government of violating his six-point peace plan.

If the death toll in Tremseh is confirmed, it would be the bloodiest single event in the Syrian conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 08:56 AM

And reports are coming out of chemical weapons being taken out of stockpiles by the Syrian government...


Aren't they considered to be WMDs? I wonder how many have Iraqi markings, and were brought in back in 2002-3?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:54 PM

Netanyahu in Israel does nothing to alleviate the vicious Assad regime, he sets an example by his oppression of Palestinians; there are numerous Israelis who would agree with me and if you read Ha'aretz you would find many who went to jail for their views.

The "lets not attack Israel" bromide is sheer propaganda that encourages Assad to do exactly what he does. AIPAC is more powerful in the U.S. than in Israel. There are many Israelis who are reasonable and know what's really going on and can see that one dictator supports another.

Now that we're censuring arms dealers, what about the U.S.?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:25 AM


Netanyahu in Israel does nothing to alleviate the vicious Assad regime,

All the problems of the region are caused by Israel. Right?
The Arab Spring was the Arabs turning against their real oppressors, and it was NOT Israel.

What more could Netanyahu to " alleviate the vicious Assad regime" ?
A state of war exists between them.
Israel has already intervened to destroy Assad's nuclear programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:31 AM


he (Netanyahu) sets an example by his oppression of Palestinians;

Does he?
The population of persecuted people dwindles, like the Christians in Arab lands or in Arab controlled West Bank towns like Bethlehem.

Israeli Palestinians are flourishing and growing rapidly.
None choose to cross a border into an Arab regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 11:05 AM

"None choose to cross a border into an Arab regime"
And there is no reason why they should
Despite Israeli efforts to drive out the Palestinians and take over their land, Palestine is their home. The fact they they should wish to defend their state from an aggressive nuclear power which has proved in the past that they are more than happy to assist other terrorist regimes to become nuclear powers, (such as apartheid South Africa) is to their credit.
Israel is a terrorist state, and the fact that the US has used its power of veto as often as it has in support of their terrorist actions, makes it extremely difficult for the west to criticise the use of a veto by Russia and China in support of Syria.
And still the beat goes on and the United Nations says once again what it will do if Assad doesn't desist from massacring his own people.
How may more massacres before the UN acts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:20 PM

How many more massacres before Russia allows UN to act?
What massacres did US vetoes allow?

Jim, you say there is no reason why Palestinians should flee Israel.
If they were being persecuted, they would flee.
As the Jews fled Arab lands.
As the Christians still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 03:15 PM

No intention of entering into one of your vortexes.
Israel is a terrorist state and is recognised as such.
Unless you are prepared to address the fact of America's over-use of the UN veto in defence of Israel and other terrorist states making it vitually impossible to criticise Russia and China without it rebounding as mealy mouthed criticism - which you are obviously not - I'll leave you to your "Israel is innocent because she said she didn't to it guv", and your hypocritical wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The cold fact is that China and Russia have behaved in exactly the same way as the US has in the past, the only difference being which particular terrorist regime was being supported at any given time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:26 PM

This thread is about the horror of Syria.
The worst atrocities since Bosnia and Ruwanda.

What has Israel got to do with that horror?
Nothing!
It is blameless, but the old Lefties ignore all the guilty parties to attack it.

US and UK have strived tirelessly to get international acton against Assad.
Russia and China block every move and supply Assad more weapons and ammo.
The old Lefties attack US and UK

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:05 AM

"What has Israel got to do with that horror?"
Stringsinger made a remark in passing, you took up the remark in your continuing support for another terrorist state. I merely pointed out that the US's use of the veto in support for Israel and other human rights abusers has made it virtually impossible to condemn China and Russia because they are only echoing the US's past actions - same tactics, different terrorist state.
Now you want to drop that particular hot potato - and who's to blame you?
The US, the UK and the UN are doing exactly - nothing, and the massacres continue unabated, as does the hypocritical wailing and gnashing of teeth from their mindless supporters.
Nothing is done because they, like you "fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls" - a clear argument for keeping that regime in place, with the support of your proposed "riot gear", no doubt.
If this 'nothing' continues to be the (non) response to Assad's murderously criminal behaviour, the end result will be to return Syria to being the viciously dictator-led state it always was, receiving the support from the West that it has always enjoyed.
As Britain's Vince Cable, the business secretary succinctly put it "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:10 AM

You both used this thread about the suffering of Syria as a platform to make the same old attacks against Israel even though Israel is irrelevant.
That is what you Lefties do.
On this thread it is all you CAN do.
The US, the UK and the UN are doing exactly - nothing, and the massacres continue unabated

They are all doing everything they can, but the Lefties can give no credit for it.
Russia and China and Iran are the reason it still goes on unabated.
As old mates, the Lefties just make excuses for them.

No compassion for the suffering.
Just make political capital and try to deflect blame from the guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:12 AM

responding to BB's post.

US says it knows that CW weapons are being moved.
Preparing for use or trying to keep them safe from the rebels?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:30 AM

Israel is a terrorist state and is recognised as such.
.,,.
By whom, Jim -- apart from professional hide-behind-pretence-of-loving-justice antisemites? It has taken up a position forced on it by the actual terrorist states by which it is surrounded ~~ ones where it's main headline shokshokshok news in all the world media if two of their women are allowed to take part in the Olympics, without a chance of winning because of the ridiculouslwy handicapping clothes they are compelled to wear to compete. The posture into which Israel has been forced by its terrorising neighbours, who have never retreated from their initially expressed 64-yrs-ago determination to "drive it into the sea", is, as I never tire of saying, a grave disappointment to its original adherents & supporters.

But "terrorist" is scarcely the word to be used of about the only sovereign state in the region with any semblance of a democratic government or a C21 civilisation -- except by resolute kneejerk anitisemites, which you have persistently denied being one of, Jim.

I hadn't meant to intervene; but one can only take so much rubbish from those whom one knows to know better really, and are merely flinging insults for hyperbolical effect.

Yes ~~ you, Jim Carroll.

Warmest regards as ever

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:32 AM

made it virtually impossible to condemn China and Russia because they are only echoing the US's past actions

But for Russia's veto Assad would have fallen and the lives of thousands of innocents saved.
Specifically which US veto had any consequence remotely approaching those massive atrocities.
My view is that there is nothing that explains or excuses these monstrous crimes against humanity, or those supporters of Assad whose hands are bloody up to their armpits.
Not Israel.
Not US.
Not UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:31 AM

"By whom, Jim"
The murder of aid workers, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the daily nazi-loike humiliation they are put through, the seizure of their homes and land, the Berlin-type wall seperating them from their livelyhood.... and many, many more examples, are more than enough evidence of Israel's terrorist nature, but perhaps this from a bunch of "hide-behind-pretence-of-loving-justice antisemites?" says it better than I can.
Take your double-standard selective racism (nicely displayed in your latest offering) and stick it Mike.
Jim Caroll

Published on Monday, April 1, 2002 by Tikkun Magazine
Israel's State Terrorism
by Lev Grinberg
What is the difference between State terrorism and individual terrorist acts? If we understand this difference we'll understand also the evilness of the US policies in the Middle East and the forthcoming disasters. When Yassir Arafat was put under siege in his offices and kept hostage by the Israeli occupation forces, he was constantly pressed into condemning terror and combatting terrorism. Israel's Stateterrorism is defined by US officials as "self-defense", while individual suicide bombers are called terrorists.
The only 'small' difference is that Israeli aggression is the direct responsibility of Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Ben Eliezer, Shimon Peres and Shaul Mofaz, while the individual terrorist acts are done by individuals in despair, usually against Arafat's will. One hour after Arafat declared his support of a cease fire and wished the Jews a Happy Passover feast, a suicide bomber exploded himself in an hotel in Netanya, killing 22 innocent Jews celebrating Passover. Arafat was blamed as responsible for this act, and the present IDF offensive has been justified through this accusation.
At the same time, Sharon's responsibility for Israeli war crimes is being completely ignored. Who should be arrested for the targeted killing of almost 100 Palestinians? Who will be sent to jail for the killing of more than 120 Palestinian paramedics? Who will be sentenced for the killing of more than 1,200 Palestinians and for the collective punishment of more than 3,000,000 civilians during the last 18 months? And who will face the International Tribunal for the illegal settlement of occupied Palestinian Lands, and the disobedience of UN decisions for more than 35 years?

Suicide bombs killing innocent citizens must be unequivocally condemned; they are immoral acts, and their perpetrators should be sent to jail. But they cannot be compared to State terrorism carried out by the Israeli Government. The former are individual acts of despair of a people that sees no future, vastly ignored by an unfair and distorted international public opinion. The latter are cold and "rational" decisions of a State and a military apparatus of occupation, well equipped, financed and backed by the only superpower in the world.

Yet in the public debate, State terrorism and individual suicide bombs are not even considered as comparable cases of terrorism. The State terror and war crimes perpetrated by the Israeli Government are legitimized as "self-defense", while Arafat, even under siege, is demanded to arrest "terrorists."

I want to ask: Who will arrest Sharon, the person directly responsible for the orders to kill Palestinians? When is he going to be defined a terrorist too? How long will the world ignore the Palestinian cry that all they want is freedom and independence? When will it stop neglecting the fact that the goal of the Israeli Government is not security, but the continued occupation and subjugation of the Palestinian people?
As Israelis in the opposition, we are fighting against our government, but the international support that Sharon receives is constantly jeopardizing our struggle. The whole international public opinion must be reverted, and the UN must deploy intervention forces in order to stop the bloodshed and the imminent deterioration. Israelis and Palestinians desperately need the awakening of the international community's public opinion and a reversal in the global attitude. These are needed both in order to save our lives (literally), and preserve our hope in a better future.
Dr. Lev Grinberg is a political sociologist, and Director of the Humphrey Institute for Social Research at Ben Gurion University

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 11:30 AM

This is a serious thread about serious suffering of real people.
Ten thousand murders.
Murdered by Assad and those who keep him in power.

Why do you post pages about Israel and UK who have nothing whatever to do with it?

Start a thread or reopen one of the dozens already devoted to attacking Israel and UK.
This is about Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:31 PM

You introduced Israel into this thread in your very first posting and had referred to is around ten times before I mentioned it - it is you who have used this thread (on the massacre of Homs) to promote the terrorist state of Israel, whie at the same time claiming that it would be wrong to actively protect the Syrian people because they cannot be trusted to replace Assad with someone as favourable to the West.
Just in case you do your usual stunt of denying what you have written:
"Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:26 PM

Depends on one's definition of a 'terrorist state' I suppose, Jim. Would a 'terrorist state' permit an attack on itself as such, in its own public prints by one of its own citizens, an academic at one of its own leading universities like the one {10 years old, I note ~ so not v up to date with regard to the enormities you rubricate above it} you just C&Pd?

Do us all a favour, Jim: just THINK in a manner proportionate to what one knows to be your intelligence ~~ when not distorted by one of your own bête-noir King Charles's Heads. Would any other of your beloved Muslim states in the area [or anywhere else] permit such?

We've been thru all this before, & I shall say no more about it for the nonce ~ esp as, as Keith so rightly points out, it is drift: this thread is about Syria, and it is you who have made it excuse for one of your habitual attacks on Israel: so "Take your double-standard selective racism - antisemitic in your case - (nicely displayed in your latest offering) and stick it" right back to you.

שלם

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:29 PM

You are right about something Jim!
I did mention Israel in the OP, asking why you Lefties only want to attack Israel and have nothing to say about worse criminals all around it.
Sure enough, you Lefties insist on bringing Israel into a discussion about Syria, even though it is not involved at all!

Now the lie.
You accuse me of "claiming that it would be wrong to actively protect the Syrian people because they cannot be trusted to replace Assad with someone as favourable to the West."

Completely untrue and made up.
I have never claimed such a thing, and neither has anyone else.
A lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:13 AM

Again Annan is begging the Security Council for sanctions.
Will Russia and China allow it this time?
Don't hold your breath.
He is appealing to Russia to stop keeping Assad in power.
BBC this morning,
Mr Annan is expected to urge Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov to put pressure on the Syrian authorities to begin a political transition, although BBC Moscow correspondent Steve Rosenberg says there is little sign that the Kremlin is ready to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:57 AM

"I did mention Israel in the OP,"
Yes you did, and you continued to use the suffering of the Syrian people to promote that particular nasty regime.
Israel has been a valid part of this discussion from the outset because you chose to make it such in your initial posting
"Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride."
This has never been about Syria as far as you are concerned.
It has been a vehicle to support your favourite terrorist charity - Israel - want to count how many times YOU have mentioned Israel in this thread?
It has been a means to take a pop at Russia and China (albeit well-deserved) - even though the US has used its power of veto in exactly the same way to defend other human rights abusers and war criminals:
"The United States has used the veto on 82 occasions between 1946 and 2007; and has used its veto power more than any other permanent member since 1972" (Wiki entry - and a fact you have consistently ignored)
It has been a vehicle to show how great Britain is, even though they have done nothing practical to stop the massacres (which have escalated steadily because of the inaction of the UN, the US and the UK), and even though Britain had already sold ammumunition to Assad of the type that was causing the slaughter that was taking place in Homs.
In fairness to Britain; at least they made it clear that they had no intention of becoming involved - a leading British minister said as much on television around the time you started this thread and gave similar reasons as your own for not assisting:   
"I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
You have offered no suggestions as to how the situation might be resolved - on the contrary, you have consistently slapped down the suggestions of others and given the impression that there is no solution.
Military intervention - as in Libya - nope (see above)
Trade embargo - nope
Arresting Assad's gofer and right-hand man and seizing his considerable London assets - nope
Demanding that the UN consider over-riding the Chinese/Russian veto in order to carry out its constitutional 'duty to protect' the Syrian people - not even acknowledged.
The only practical offering on your part has been to suggest that Assad might be provided with equipment (riot control gear) in order to quash the opposition and bring his people to heel.
Your feigned displays of sympathy (and nothing else) would have done Henry Irving proud!
"Do us all a favour, Jim:"
You do us all a favour Mike and take your double-standard racism elsewere - you really have surpassed yourself this time. Not only have you skulked behind the dead of the Holocaust to defend the Zionist extremism you claim to be opposed to by making all who criticise that extremism "professional hide-behind-pretence-of-loving-justice antisemites", but you have indulged in attacks on the culture of others with your "ridiculously handicapping clothes".
I have no interest in religion, except to be uneasy about the dangers of the toxic mix of the church (any church) and politics. That people choose to adhere to certain religious practices, be they Jewish, Islamic or Christian is no business of mine, and it shouldn't be of yours - shame on you.
I used to respect you - now I believe you to be a double-standard hypocritical racist, little better than the similarly-viewed individual you have consistently chosen to defend from his own idiocy, the only difference being the thin veneer of civilisation your education appears to have given you - must re-read 'Lord of the Flies' sometime!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:50 AM

I asked why you of the Hard Left were silent on Syria but so vociferous about Israel whose supposed crimes pale into insignificance by comparison.

It is because the undisputed monster is an enemy of Israel that Israel has been facing down for decades.
It is because Israel is an innocent bystander.
It is because the old darlings of the Hard Left are supporting the monster and are drenched in the blood of thousands of slaughtered families.
It is because this time it is unequivocal that the Western Powers are the force for good.

In fairness to Britain; at least they made it clear that they had no intention of becoming involved
Lie.
Britain has got involved from the start and has done more than any other to get international action.

Trade embargo - nope
Er, yes actually.
Massive embargoes are in place but flouted by R and C

Demanding that the UN consider over-riding the Chinese/Russian vetoes
They can not over ride them.

Military intervention.
Only a deranged Colonel Blimp would think that more Western boots marching into another Muslim land was a good idea, but you do.
My position is the only sane one, last resort only.

And I am not ashamed of expressing concern for the minorities.
You should be for dismissing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:56 AM

Have just been browsing old threads, Jim. Can scarcely believe your observations around here, re both Israel, other regimes, and me, to have been written by same man as originated the Tommy Tiernan thread a couple of years ago. What on earth has happened to you? Call me racist, you impudent jackanapes!? Pots'n'kettles 2U. In a different mood you would have plenty to say about the absurd dress-codes imposed by Muslim men upon their womenfolk; but if I mention it, it's racist is it?

Fool!*

Traditional greetings

~M~

*{Only I suppose I'd better not say that or I'll be providing you with another of your non-weapons -- you're the individual who once used 'educated' as a term of abuse, I recall.}

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:31 AM

"impose"
Imposed being the operative word - I object to all 'impositions' by any religious group and any abuse of their position by the clergy.
"In a different mood you would have plenty to say about the absurd dress-codes imposed by Muslim men"
Whatever my personal opinions of religious customs and dress-codes, I don't think I have publicly attempted to ridicle them - on this forum or anywhere else - unlike you 9please feel free to correct me if this is not the case).
I feel that, while I do find some of these repressive, it would be a total disaster for outsiders like me to dare intervene - it is the affair of members of those religions and of nobody else.
Have just finished two fascinating and extremely moving books by somebody who lived in a Jewish community in pre/post-WW1 Lancashire and was horrified at the effects of fundamentalism on individuals in that community, but as I say, the business of members of that religion - not mine.   
My main reason for considering you a hypocrite and a racist if your double-standards regarding Keith's racism comapred with your own objection to the same racism were it directed at Jews.
Suggest you look at his most recent Zionist rant.
If Israel is not part of this discussion as you have consistently claimed why did you put it in and have constantly referred to it.
If it is part of this discussion, why have you objected to people responding your putting it in
Your latest offering is a Zionist rant - are you the only one permitted to comment on subjects you have put up or can we all comment?
Jim Carroll
BTW - you described a trade embargo as not permissable because it ywould 'harm the Syrian people' - you have now somersaulted just like the tame flag-waving poodle that you are

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:51 AM

"Keith's racism" is just what you invent when you have no other reply.

If Israel is not part of this discussion as you have consistently claimed why did you put it in
I did not put it in.
I just made the point that you were vociferous about Israel but silent on Syria.
You responded by being vociferous about Israel, despite it being irrelevant to this issue.
It is an irrational obsession with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM

Russia has rejected pleas for tougher sanctions or for a transition of power.
Is anyone surprised?

Russia China and Iran see the Arab Spring as threatening to them because unpopular, unrepresentative and repressive regimes are being thrown out by their oppressed people.
They see it as a Western plot against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:33 AM

his most recent Zionist rant.

I assume you mean this.
Which bits are wrong and why is any of it "Zionist" Jim?

It is because the undisputed monster is an enemy of Israel that Israel has been facing down for decades.
It is because Israel is an innocent bystander.
It is because the old darlings of the Hard Left are supporting the monster and are drenched in the blood of thousands of slaughtered families.
It is because this time it is unequivocal that the Western Powers are the force for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:45 AM

I admit to a negative reaction to Islamism, Jim. Not, note, to Islam, tho that does not strike me as an altogether attractive faith [but then, like you, I consider them all intrinsically nonsensical]; but to IslamISM. You know what that is, & what is the distinction I am making here; so please don't disingenuously pretend that you don't. Islamism is not a race [nor, for the matter of that, is Islam]. So how a distaste for it can define me in any sense as a racist is far from clear to me.

However, let that pass. It is more & more being borne in on me that in such matters as these, regarding the interface of faith & ethnicity, you are just not right bright; you are like a Pavlov's dog responding to irrational stimuli. So I don't propose to argue with you further on such matters. There are more efficient ways of inducing a headache than battering one's head against a brick wall of resolutely misinformed incomprehension.

Keith, if I were you I should do the same. You'll get nowhere against such determined refusal to see sense. Just let him go on chuntering his disapproval to the unheeding four winds to his heart's content.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 05:43 AM

Amnesty International. From their site.

"Whilst Russia continues to block international efforts to find an effective solution to the situation, the people of Syria continue to suffer a bloody cycle of repression and abuse. Many of the weapons previously supplied by Russia and other countries are being used in this assault."

Amnesty International has called for the imposition of an immediate arms embargo aimed at stopping the transfer of arms to the Syrian government, a Security Council referral of the situation to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and an assets freeze on President Bashar al-Assad and his close associates.(Western countries did all this months ago)

The reports come as crucial negotiations continue at the UN in New York for an Arms Trade Treaty. Russian officials have previously been looking to prevent the treaty from containing strong human rights rules that could help stop future atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:05 AM

(Western countries did all this months ago)
Then why is Amnest International still calling for it to happen - your cut-n-paste is dated July 12th - they must be stupid or something!!
And still the slaughter continues while the "crucial negotiations continue" - perhaps the UN believes it can talk Assad int submission!!
Still waiting for an explanation as to why you believe you can include Israel in your original posting then whinge when others take you up on it!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:29 AM

Then why is Amnest International still calling for it to happen
They are calling for Russia to join in Jim.

BBC 23rd March
EU foreign ministers have imposed a travel ban and asset freeze on the British-born wife of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and other family members.

Asma al-Assad is among 12 people added to the sanctions list, which already includes her husband.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:43 AM

NYT. August 18th 2011
President Obama, who had faced criticism for not acting more assertively, ordered the freezing of all Syrian assets within American jurisdiction, banned imports of Syrian oil and barred American citizens from having any business dealings with the Syrian government, which the administration once courted in the hopes of improving relations.

He called on other countries to impose their own sanctions,

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 09:33 AM

"Amnesty International has called for the imposition of an immediate arms embargo aimed at stopping the transfer of arms to the Syrian government, a Security Council referral of the situation to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and an assets freeze on President Bashar al-Assad and his close associates."
It has been persisitently suggested on this thread that Assad's gofer with properties in London, should have all his considerable assets seized
- your response
"Unless he commits a crime, he can not be touched or his assets seized."
Now, it appears, it is permissible to seize them - what's changed - and has the British government seized them - if not, why not?
Why has it taken so long to take this sort of action and why have you opposed it until now - until them upstairs give the nod, no doubt.
When are you going to work some of this out for yourself instead of waiting to be told what to think?
And the reason you are allowed to discuss Israel on this thread, but the rest of us are not is........?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 10:54 AM

why have you opposed it until now

Me oppose anything?
I have been advocating action all along and MY anger and fury has been directed against those responsible for blocking international action, and undermining all the action that has been taken, and by that permitting and encouraging Assad's monstrous crimes to continue.
China and Russia.

Meanwhile, you Jim post pages and pages trying to implicate Britain, disparage the West, and now to attack Israel again.

You deflect blame from the guilty and bloody, while attacking those doing all in their power to get Assad deposed.
You are Assad's friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:10 PM

I repeat - your response to the suggestion that his assets be seized
"Unless he commits a crime, he can not be touched or his assets seized."
Your response to unilateral action to stop Assad
"I do not favour a military intervention. I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
The "guilty and bloody," are those who have cinically stood by and watched
Far from "deflecting from blame" it is you who has hidden behind the eexcuse of the veto (even to the extent of refusing to acknowledge the fact that abuse of the veto by the US has put the West in a position where it is virtually impossible for them to condemn the Russian and Chinese for acting exactly the same - same actions different terrorists.
They are all cynically murdoerous bastards, as are those who excuse their behaviour.
And still you dodge all the evidence put to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:46 PM

I have not opposed any action against Assad, merely pointing out difficulties.
I have advocated action and, UNLIKE YOU JIM, deplored the blocking of that action by your old Hard Left friends.
Military intervention?
Only a mad militaristic maniac would support that except as a last resort.
(But YOU do Jim. Right?)

The veto is not an excuse.
It has prevented Western powers from taking the action needed to depose Assad and stop the horror.
How about ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION of those vetoes Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 03:15 PM

Once again I find I am defending myself.
This should be about the issue of Syria, not me.
Instead of attacking me Jim, tell us your opinion of the initiative from the Western nations for the Security Council to strengthen sanctions, and of Russia's decision to oppose it and veto it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 02:47 AM

Kofi Annan has delayed the vote on the resolution by the Western powers for more sanctions, hoping to persuade Russia not to veto it.
Russia's main objection is that it might lead to military intervention.
I support the resolution and find Russia and China's attitude despicable.
Anyone agree?
Jim?

Meanwhile events on the ground may herald the beginning of the end for Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 03:46 AM

"This should be about the issue of Syria, not me."
Not you Keith - what you say.
Supply Assad with anti-riot equipment
Don't help the Syrians overthrow Assad because of what they might do to Christians and therefore are not to be trusted.
Britain and the US are doing all they can to help - they are not, but they would if Syria had significant supplies of oil.
It was ok to sell Assad small arms ammunition even though he had been long exposed by Amnesty International as a torturing and murdering dictator.....
Your expressed sympathy for the Syrians is a sham - you have offered no suggesttion of a solution to the massacres (except the riot equipment) and have attempted to slap down anybody who has.
You have attempted to silence an overview of the situation - Britain selling despots weapons after the Arab Spring had begun.
You have labeled as 'thread drift' subjects you put in your first posting, attempting to silence discussion on your own statement.
All of which makes your pathetic attempts to label opponents of your one-man campaign "maniacs" or "friends of Assad" the desperate shit that it is. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS DEFENDED THE SELLING OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO BE USED AGAINST THE SYRIAN PEOPLE - AND HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED SUPPLYING EVEN MORE.
Want any more - plenty do choose from?
What do I think of the latest "strengthening of sanctions"?
Sanctions have made not one iota of difference so far - Assad is getting his support from Russia, China and Iran, and will continue to do so until the UN act on their constitutional 'Duty to Protect' clause and stop hiding behind Russia and China as an excuse not to.
An interesting article in The Times yesterday outlining the consequences of non-intervention by Amir Taheri - researcher and author on Middle Eastern affairs:
"The debate is not about the right, but the duty to intervene. Not to intervene would mean repeating the mistakes that caused the death of millions in Rwanda, the Congo and former Yugoslavia.
Turkish and Arab leaders tell me that they would be ready to set up safe havens and humanitarian corridors providing the US stops fooling around with "leading from behind" and takes the lead to set up at least one no-fly zone with help from a coalition of the willing".
Ironically, Israel is (quite justifiably) in a panic over what is happening in Syria.
If the the only military resistance remains in the hands of rebel groups there is a danger that Syria's large stocks of chemical weapons could fall into the hands of Hezbollah - leaving the Middle East...... where exactly?
I utterly condemn Russia's and China's veto - I have from the beginning, but I also condemn those who continue to hide behind that veto in order to do what they have said they would do right from the outset ABSOLUTELY NOTHING PRACTICAL TO STOP ASSAD - FOR CYNICAL POLITICAL REASONS - NO OIL, NO HELP.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 04:25 AM

First, the lie.
I have NEVER said "Don't help the Syrians overthrow Assad because of what they might do to Christians and therefore are not to be trusted." and I am pleased that my country and others HAVE been helping them overthrow Assad.

Another lie.
"Britain and the US are doing all they can to help - they are not, but they would if Syria had significant supplies of oil."

Syria HAS significant supplies of oils and UK/US ARE doing all they can.

Stupidity.
Sanctions have made not one iota of difference so far - Assad is getting his support from Russia, China and Iran,
True and despicable of China Russia and Iran.

and will continue to do so until the UN act on their constitutional 'Duty to Protect' clause and stop hiding behind Russia and China as an excuse not to.
Vetoes can not be ignored

Assad's friend.
Many Nations have taken strong actions against Assad.
You have refused to support them or even acknowledge their efforts.
I have invited you to do so more than once and been ignored.
That makes you a friend of Assad.

You follow a token word of criticism of Assad's friends, with pages of attacks on Assad's enemies.
That makes you a friend of Assad.

Your default position on this forum has always been anti UK and the West.
That is OK, but if you post to a thread about Syria almost nothing but attacks on Assad's enemies, then you align yourself with Assad's friends.
Your posts here show you to be, indeed, a friend of Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:17 AM

And that 's it - that's your defence of uyour lying, distorting, flag-waving, bullying, openly dishonest behaviour on this thread - more of the same
Don't call us.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:24 AM

I refute all those charges, but suggest we discuss the issues not each other.
You did not give your view on the proposed resolution which could lead to intervention.
You must be in favour,right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 05:26 AM

I would not object this time if you chose to express a view on the attack on Israelis in Bulgaria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 12:03 PM

Russia and China have both vetoed the Security Council again, despite Annan's best efforts.
Time to give up on UN now?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 03:24 AM

Interest in Israel does not extend to the mass murder of Israeli tourists then.

Suppose Assad attacked Israel, like Saddam did, to get the Arab street on side?

Suppose Israel made attacks on chemical stockpiles.
Would that be acceptable?

There has been high level speculation about both scenarios.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 04:07 AM

"Interest in Israel does not extend to the mass murder of Israeli tourists then."
Throughout this thread you have whinged incessently "thread creep".
You have attempted to silence relevant offshoots, such as the sale of weapons to other Middle Eastern despots under attack from Arab Spring protersters.
You have whined about people 'using this thread to attack Israel, even though it was in relation to Israel's terrorism being defended by US vetos, just as China and Russia have defended Syrian terrorism (and even though you put Israel into your OP).
Now you want to discuss something that has ABOUT AS MUCH CONNECTION WITH THE CONTINUING MASSACRES AS DOES, SAY, THE BRITISH TORTURING, RAPING AND MURDERING KENYANS IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE EMPIRE (LOVE TO HEAR HOW YOU WOULD DEFEND THAT - BUT I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOU DO).
You appear to have flipped completely - please go away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:04 AM

You demanded that Israel be discussed, so I complied.
I am wrong either way, right?

The murdering of Israelis is of concern here because the Olympics are about to start and it is the 40th anniversary of the mass murder of Jewish athletes at the Munich Olympics.
The threat is being taken very seriously.

The two issues related to Syria are genuine issues of concern.
No drift.
Completely relevant, but you choose to avoid it.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:27 AM

"Why? "
Because, despite your having put it up, you have screamed "thread drift" when anybody but yourself has mentioned it.
Israel has been discussed in relation to vetos which have been applied in the past in abundance in support of terrorism - including those by by the US in protecting Israel from being condemned for their behaviour.
The Olympics, Munich or elswehere, have their own thread and have no place whatever here as they have no relevance whatever to your own thread - "Homs Horror" - or perhaps you'd like to explain why they do?
You now appear to have dropped the pretence that this is about Syria and rather a PR exercise in support of Israel.
But since you ask - and I will not take this any further on this thread.
I am appalled at all acts of terror, whether they be the killing of Israeli tourists or the facilitating of the massacres of thousands of refugees - and everything between. To emphasise one and deny the others is to take sides - I don't go there.
I am saddened that anybody should resort to slaughtering non-combatants using these methods for any cause, religious, political, or territorial.
Perhaps, if we still have a UN when all this is over, they might concentrate on finding a peaceful solution to all these problems now the Arab Spring has opened the possibility of democracy in those countries that have in the past been propped up by western arms sales in order not to rock the boat and threaten our oil supplies.
Meanwhile - back at the ranch.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 06:38 AM

I stopped objecting to your thread drift, and you are still not happy.

I posted this one sentence,
I would not object this time if you chose to express a view on the attack on Israelis in Bulgaria.
and commented that you chose not to.

That was the whole extent of my thread drift.
Everything else is on topic.
I am genuinely interested in how the far Left would react to entirely possible Israeli intervention, or to an attack on Israel, and doubt I am alone.

(I am glad post 666 was yours not mine!)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:02 AM

Assad says he is prepared to use his chemical weapons.
He says not on civilians, but on "foreign agressors" which likely means the rebels.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:15 AM

Press Association today.
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel had not considered specifically trying to cross the border to seize the weapons. "There are other possibilities," he said in an interview on Fox News.

Over the weekend, defence minister Ehud Barak said Israel would be prepared to attack Syrian weapons arsenals should the need arise.

Mr Netanyahu said preventing Syria's weapons from falling into the wrong hands was key to Israeli security. "Could you imagine Hezbollah, the people who are conducting with Iran all these terror attacks around the world - could you imagine them having chemical weapons? It would be like al Qaida having chemical weapons," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:16 AM

By no stretch of the imagination does the Bulgaria terrorist attack have anything remotely to do with what is happening in Syria; you are now blatently using the slaughter of the Syrian people as a Zionist soapbox.
You appear to have dug yourself into a hole that even your own personal Mary Poppins will be unable to get you out of - feel free - but you do so without me.
It is heartening to see you finally acknowledge the Israeli concern about chemical weapons - who knows, perhaps the UN and the rest of the world will at long last get off their bums and prevent this slaughter from escalating into cross-border chemical warfare - there's been far too much of that sort of thing already!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 08:50 AM

Zionist soapbox?!
I defy you to put up anything from any post of mine to justify that.

It was you who insisted that Israel be discussed Jim.
The comment about the tourist massacre was my only concession to it.

(but now it has been raised in the context of Syria by Netanyahu, so it is not drift anymore anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 04:21 AM

Jerusalem Post today.
The Syrian opposition rejected an Israeli offer of assistance, Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman said in an interview with Turkish media published Tuesday.

"We offered humanitarian assistance but they rejected it," he told the Turkish journalists in Jerusalem Sunday. "Everybody has told us that it is much better to keep the distance."


The foreign minister added: "We don't want to impose ourselves on the Syrian opposition. It is impossible to impose ourselves on somebody. We can only suggest but cannot impose," Turkish daily Hurriyet quoted him as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:10 AM

Putin is coming to London.
Perhaps some of the Olympic spirit of co-operation will rub off on him.
Other parties.
Reuters last week) - Lebanon's powerful Shi'ite militant group Hezbollah has publicly tied its future to Bashar al-Assad, but as the tide turns against the Syrian president it is silent on whether it will join the fight to support him.

The stakes are high for the group which fears that toppling Assad will pave the way for increased Western pressure - if not war - on its strongest ally and founder, Shi'ite Iran. By losing Assad the group would also be deprived of its strategic partner and main supply line for its arsenal.

"Hezbollah is at a point of enormous strategic uncertainty. (Syria's uprising) is not an existential threat, they are too well armed. But now they face a threat from two sides," a Western diplomat in Lebanon said, referring to Hezbollah's foe Israel and a potentially hostile post-Assad Syria.

Hezbollah has shown no sign of abandoning Assad and Lebanese officials close to the group say it won't stand idle if the battle worsens. Some said it will fight Israel. Others said it will deploy some of its fighters to secure the border with Lebanon, from which rebels are attacking Syrian frontier posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM

Annan has admitted failure, quiting his role securing peace in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:59 AM

No meeting of minds between Putin and Cameron.
Russia is sending three large landing ships with hundreds of marines to its base in Syria.
"Ex" Communist Putin's regime is nasty and repressive, like the one in Syria he supports.
Like US, Britain is increasing its "practical non-lethal support" to the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 11:08 AM

"No meeting of minds between Putin and Cameron."
No - then why does today's times carry a photograph of Putin and one of his henchmen sharing a box and chatting with Cameron at the Olympics?
As you say, Russia is an "Ex" Communist Putin's regime" - ie a capitalist country so there is no political mileage in that one. China is one of the west's (particularly Britain's) most valued trading partners, so I suppose it is out of the question to suggest a trade embargo against them until they lift their veto on Syria? No? I thought not.
"practical non-lethal support"
There are decades of precedents of the US (obediently supported by Britain - good little poodle that she is) giving 'practical support in the form of military and economic intervention to those threatening the West's interests - right up to that given in Libya, but not in Syria it seems, where the consequences to the civilian population have already proved 100 times worse, and are quite likely to escalate to an international crisis involving chemical weapons (not to mention the support that the only people to provide any practical opposition - the fundamentalists - are likely to get from the people, should Assad be defeated).
The "practical non-lethal support" given (or not given, as the case may be) has made not the slightest difference - the civilian death toll continues to rise, Assad escalates his war crimes, and the Syrian people continue to suffer - as a headline in the Times last week so clearly put it "We are keeping our eye on you (Assad)", and that is all we/they are doing - standing by and watching as if Syria has become an Olympic event.
Maybe it's time you upped your demand for sending Assad riot-control equipment????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

Annan begged the international community not to militarise the Syrian situation.
The West desisted from supplying weaponry because it would be spitting in Annan's face to do so.

Cameron and Putin, The Independent.
"By the time the Russian national anthem was played, Mr Cameron had already made his exit. If relations seemed strained, it can hardly come as a surprise given the earlier discussions in Downing Street. Mr Cameron raised human-rights disagreements – specifically the treatment of the female punk rock trio Pussy Riot – as he challenged Mr Putin over growing suppression in the country. The band's members face up to seven years in prison after staging a protest in a Moscow cathedral.

The discussions between the two leaders focused on the turmoil in Syria, where profound differences exist between the two countries over how to respond. Russia and China have blocked British-backed resolutions in the Security Council to threaten the Assad regime with global sanctions."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:15 PM

None of which has addressed anything in my posting
No explanation for Cameron chumming it with the "nasty and repressive" Russians at the Olympics
No acknowledgement of Russia's capitalistic status, making their "nasty and repressive" behaviour the act of a capatilast country.
No comment on Britain having a trading partner that has vetoed action against Syria.
No response to boycotting trade with these bastards - but then again, that nice Mr Cable did say that they don't mind trading with "nasty and repressive people".
No acknowledgement of the fact that Britan's, the US's and teh UN's "practical non-lethal support" has not made one iota of difference; instead, the stated inaction by the West has put the body-count even higher once it has been shown that the world is prepared to stand back and watch while the world stands back and lets Assad get on with the job in hand.
Eben Annan has admitted the failure of what few feeble noises of opposition have been maade by throwing in the towel.
And of course a total failure either to explain ot withdraw your "riot-equipment" suggestion - perhaps yo were "mistaking it for Libya" like you were about the sale of sniper ammunition to Syria - my arse!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:14 PM

The Independent quote is how I see the Cameron/Putin meeting.
Russia may have embraced a kind of capitalism, but a nasty and repressive kind under the leadership of a hard line communist KGB officer.
Ex!

I have explained my position on non lethal equipment enough times.
Do you want a link to some?

Britain and the West has imposed embargoes on Syria and Iran.
Britain could not hurt an economy like China or Russia, and it would plunge us into an historic recession that we would not see end in our time.

Is there any country in the world who you approve of over this?
Name one that has done better than UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:19 PM

Saudi Arabia?
Qatar?
Iran?
Hezbolla?
Hamas?
Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 03:13 AM

"The Independent quote is how I see the Cameron/Putin meeting."
The photograph I'm referring to was taken place of an official viewing box at the Olympics - as I say - buddy-buddies - interpret that as you may - I see it as cynical politicians chumming it up at a sporting event, while thousands of non-combetants are being slaughtered.
"Name one that has done better than UK."
That's a difficult one as nobody has given any practical support to attempt to stop the slaughter - Britain specifically said at the beginning that they had no intention of doing so - some sort of honesty I suppose
A quote from an above article:
"Turkish and Arab leaders tell me that they would be ready to set up safe havens and humanitarian corridors providing the US stops fooling around with "leading from behind" and takes the lead to set up at least one no-fly zone with help from a coalition of the willing"."
To date, nobody had lifted a practical finger to prevent the killing of the Syrian population - despite your trying to occupy the high ground on behalf of Britain and the US, they are standing by and watching while a butcher gets on with his work
AND STILL YOU ARE IGNORING EVERY POINT I HAVE MADE Cameron and his political chums, trade boycotts against the vetoers, inaction by the West helping to escalate the massacres, your disgusting suggestion on "riot equipment"..... you appear to have applied your own veto on the truth of this affair
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 05:16 AM

The photograph I'm referring to
was misleading.
Cameron snubbed Putin by walking out before Russia's anthem.

Britain specifically said at the beginning that they had no intention of doing so
Please stop telling this untruth.
Cameron said from the start that Britain would take action but not break the arms embargo.
I posted his statements for you.
Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:32 AM

"Cameron said from the start that Britain would take action but not break the arms embargo."
Cameron's Senior minister and several Government supporters said publicly on television that the government had no intention of becoming practically involved in assisting the Syrians because of who might replace Assad
Still no response to the main points:
Something from the horses mouth for you to ignore (emphasis mine in case you try to accuse me of your trick of doctoring cut-n-pastes).
Jim Carroll


UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY CONDEMNS SECURITY COUNCIL
Michael Jansen in Damascus

The United Nations General Assembly voted by a large majority in New York yesterday afternoon to condemn its own security council for failing to end the war in Syria as fighting rages.
The non-binding resolution was passed by the assembly by 133 votes to 12, with 31 abstentions.
The move was clear evidence of global frustration with the key, per¬manent members of the Security Council: the US, Britain, France, Russia and China. These, along with other members of the council, have been unable to agree a common position on Syria, indulging instead in what former UN secretary general Kofi Annan termed "FINGER-POINTING AND NAME-CALLING" as he resigned on Wednes¬day his position as envoy to Syria.
His departure dismayed some ' members of the political opposi¬tion in Damascus.
Mouna Ghanem, spokeswoman for Building the Syrian State, said: "I expect there will be a rise in the violence as people might think any chance of a peaceful solution has gone. Internationally it is now the responsibility of Russia and the US to sit together and find a solution for their problem over Syria.
"It is high time to talk about a mediation group, conflict resolu¬tion specialists [that would] come to the country."
George Jabbour, former member of the Syrian parliament, said Annan's resignation was expected because he was unable to make progress in his mission. How¬ever, he said, if he had not under¬taken the task, the death toll "might have been much higher".
Mr Jabbour called on US president Barack Obama and Russian president Vladimir Putin to stop the bloodshed.
In London, British foreign secre¬tary William Hague described Mr Annan's resignation as "a bleak moment" to which he said Britain would respond by giving the rebel side more support, short of arming them.
"Given the scale of death and suffering and the failure so far of the diplomatic process, we will, over the coming weeks, increase our practical but non-lethal sup¬port. It will not involve sending armaments," he said.
There needed to be funda¬mental change in Syria, he said. "Diplomacy has so far failed the people of Syria. We do not give up on the diplomacy with Russia and with China. We will keep going with that as long as this situation continues but we will have to do other things as well."
In New York, Abdallah al-Moual-limi, the envoy for Saudi Arabia, which was the driving force behind the resolution, urged the assembly to maintain its moral and humanitarian values by approving it.
However, Syria's envoy, Bashar Jaafari, said Saudi Arabia and co-sponsor of the resolution Qatar could not themselves be considered oases of human rights.
The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, told the assembly the reported brutality in Aleppo, Syria's second city and commer-cial capital could amount to crimes against humanity.
"As we meet here, Aleppo... is the epicentre of a vicious battle between the Syrian government and those who wish to replace it... The acts of brutality that are being reported may constitute crimes against humanity or war crimes. Such acts must be investi¬gated and the perpetrators held to account," he said.
He repeated that he intended to replace Mr Annan when he departs formally at the end of this month.
"Despite repeated verbal accept¬ances of [Mr Annan's] six-point plan endorsed by the UN Security Council, both the [Syrian] govern¬ment and the opposition continue to rely on weapons, not diplomacy, in the belief that they will win through violence," he said.
"But there are no winners in Aleppo today, nor anywhere else in the country. The losers in this escalating battle are the people of Syria," he added.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:07 AM

Cameron's Senior minister and several Government supporters said publicly on television that the government had no intention of becoming practically involved in assisting the Syrians because of who might replace Assad
That is simply not true Jim.
It is a lie.

Your big cut and paste was about the General Assembly resolution.
It was solely aimed at Russia and China whose vetoes blocked every attempt by the rest of the Security Council to take any action against Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:23 AM

The reolution was proposed by the West and the Arabs, and opposed by Russia and China.

BBC today
": the text (of the resolution) had to be watered down in an attempt to win over many states, dropping explicit calls for Bashar al-Assad to step down and for member states to support Arab League sanctions.

And even though the opposition was small, it again included China and Russia. Moscow opposed the resolution as unbalanced, making clear that it believes the UN is taking one side in a civil war"

Irish Times today
"Western and Arab powers want Dr Assad to step aside but Russia and China have used their security council vetoes to block attempts to force him out. They say outside interference is prolonging the bloodshed.

UN member states voted overwhelmingly yesterday to condemn the Syrian government at a special session of the 193-member general assembly that Western diplomats said highlighted the isolation of Russia and China."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:49 AM

Once again you dismiss what is being said and defend what is not being done
Annan himself has made the point - the security council, Russia, America, Britain, China...; between them they have totally blocked any action, yet pretended to care about what is happening in Syria - just as you have throughout this thread.
The statement by the British Minister and his supporters on Question Time back in February, was unequivocal - no help for the Syrians.   
This thread has been no more than a soapbox for your Zionist views:
"Israel is attacked at every opportunity while worse criminals, even those next door, get a free ride."
"Israel denies and defends against all accusations of atrocities by the state."
"If it were possible to blame Israel we would be seeing your usual huge posts loaded with outrage."
"But, you have nothing to say because there is no way to blame Israel."
"I find it extraordinary Jim, that you have ignored all that and used it as just another platform to attack Britain and Israel who happen to be totally blameless in this."
"You will want to congratulate Israel for confronting and resisting them for so many years."
"You will also want to support Israel's blockade of Gaza,as it has stopped those "dictatorships" from supplying arms and explosives to the most "repressive regime" of all."
"Mr Netanyahu said preventing Syria's weapons from falling into the wrong hands was key to Israeli security."
This shit is classic Hyde Park Corner rhetoric, yet you whine "thread drift when somebody takes up your point" and doesn't agree with your ranting Zionism.
Answer the points put to you or piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:04 PM

Not forgetting:
"Interest in Israel does not extend to the mass murder of Israeli tourists then."
"Suppose Assad attacked Israel, like Saddam did, to get the Arab street on side?"
"Suppose Israel made attacks on chemical stockpiles.
Would that be acceptable?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM

The statement by the British Minister and his supporters on Question Time back in February, was unequivocal - no help for the Syrians.

JIM, THAT IS A LIE!
REPEATING IT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:01 PM

An episode, last February, of a weekly TV panel show, where celebrities and politicians give their personal views on questions without prior notice.
The government does not announce policy on such TV shows.

It is announced by Prime Ministerial and Ministerial statements of which there have been several.
Why do you pretend to be unaware of them?

You are desperate to attack Britain, but having nothing you essentially make stuff up.
This is a truly grave issue Jim.
Treat it seriously please.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:51 AM

The Free Syrian Army has captured some Iranians near Damascus and claims they are fighters
Iran says they are pilgrims.
Assad's ally Hamas has launched against its neighbours the biggest and deadliest attack for decades.
(I hope that is not too Zionist for anyone.)

This 2011 UK government report gives the lie to Jim's claim that UK policy was soft on Assad in February 2012.

In August (2011), Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned the continuing violence and stated that President Assad had lost legitimacy and should step aside in the best interests of Syria and the unity of its people. However, President Assad and his security forces ignored all calls for an end to violence. They continued to repress civilians in an effort to hold on to power.

The UK is at the forefront of international efforts to end the crisis in Syria. In 2011, we worked within the EU to impose sanctions targeting Syrian regime figures responsible for human rights violations. We supported three UN Human Rights Council Special Sessions on Syria, assisted the UN-mandated commission of inquiry and raised concerns in the UN Security Council and General Assembly. We supported the Arab League's efforts to put pressure on the Syrian government to end the violence. The UK has regularly raised our long-standing concerns over human rights with the Syrian government in recent years. As the situation deteriorated dramatically in 2011, opportunities for direct engagement became increasingly limited. But at every opportunity, UK officials raised with Syrian government representatives our concerns about human rights. We also funded training for Syrian activists to help them document human rights violations to support accountability.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

I gave the source the day after the discussion took place, and the reason why Britain had decided to stand and watch while the slaughter took place and the rest of the panel that were involved in the discussion.
Your gunslinging mate even acknowledged it had happened and probably made one of the few sensible comments he has ever uttered:
"Sounds like the "typical" BBC Question Time panel it had only one person with any grasp of what is the right thing to do. The panel members? two politicians, the spin doctor who pushed for action in Iraq, a journalist and a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
Denying that it isn't true doesn't make it any less of a fact - Briain has been true to her word and hasn't lifted a finger to help stop the slaughter - the reason given was not unsimilar to your own - "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls."
The list of your 'soapboxing' statements has conveniently disappeared, but neither does that alter the fact that you made them.
Nor does the fact that you proposed the sale of anti-riot gear to Assad, which you still have to explain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:24 PM

What is the point of stating obvious untruths Jim.
Briain has been true to her word and hasn't lifted a finger to help stop the slaughter
That is shite jim.
Your impression from a TV show v an official report.
I just showed that Britain was at the forefront of international efforts to stop the abuse and oust assad even before the Homs massacres.
I have posted the staements of Cameron and Haig since, and details of UK efforts at the UN, Moscow and international diplomatic missions.
Your claims are false.
Shite.
Lies.

Back in the real world, Assad's Prime Minister and family have defected.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

You are the most unprincipled and dishonest individual it has ever been my bad luck to come across - you can't handle a fact so you deny it - Sabra and Shatila - Israel said they didn't do it, so it didn't happen, "all Pakistani males are cultural perverts "wasn't me said it, it was somebody else guv".
UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, said that Britain would not be involved before a viewing audence of millions - Britain has not become involved - Annan has just pointed that out, the Syrian people have said tha the world has abandoned them, the inaction has led to Annan's resignation and he has accused Britain and the US of "finger pointing instead of action".
Even your thuggish brainded of a mate has acknowledged that it was British policy and condemned it at the time " a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
You have consitently lied on this thread, you have attemprted to cover up your own stupidity and calousness with liesd, distortions and denial.
A leading member of the government said it was policy, Britain and the Us have followed that policy to the letter, the massacres have steadily escalated because of their inaction - and despite supposed embargoes on Assad and his henchmen ASsad's gofer still goes in and out of Britain unchallenged.
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

You are the most unprincipled and dishonest individual it has ever been my bad luck to come across - you can't handle a fact so you deny it - Sabra and Shatila - Israel said they didn't do it, so it didn't happen, "all Pakistani males are cultural perverts "wasn't me said it, it was somebody else guv".
UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, said that Britain would not be involved before a viewing audence of millions - Britain has not become involved - Annan has just pointed that out, the Syrian people have said tha the world has abandoned them, the inaction has led to Annan's resignation and he has accused Britain and the US of "finger pointing instead of action".
Even your thuggish brainded of a mate has acknowledged that it was British policy and condemned it at the time " a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
You have consitently lied on this thread, you have attemprted to cover up your own stupidity and calousness with liesd, distortions and denial.
A leading member of the government said it was policy, Britain and the Us have followed that policy to the letter, the massacres have steadily escalated because of their inaction - and despite supposed embargoes on Assad and his henchmen ASsad's gofer still goes in and out of Britain unchallenged.
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:05 PM

UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond, said that Britain would not be involved before a viewing audence of millions

No he did not.
To get involved was stated UK government policy before the TV show, and after it.
The UK government was and is involved.

If a senior Minister had said otherwise on the show the media would have seized on it, the opposition would have had a field day, and he would have had to retract.
None of that happened because he never said any such thing.
Others may have, but no Minister could.

I have posted a government report from before the show and Ministerial and Prime Ministerial statements from after the show.

Attacking me changes nothing, and I do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:50 AM

The only person who has lied and deliberately misrepresented things on this thread so far has been you Christmas. You have done so repeatedly.

An unsubstantiated newspaper article becomes unassailable fact - it isn't

A comment made on a television current events panel show becomes stated Government Policy - it isn't

As for the UN Security Council:

The following Permanent Members want to get something done to stop the bloodshed in Syria - United States of America; the United Kingdom; France.

The following Permanent Members wish to see the status quo maintained and supported - Russia; the People's Republic of China.

Fact is now that there is no "Peace Plan" no-one can "impose" peace in Syria and end the bloodshed. The can has been kicked far too far down the road, the anti-Assad Free Syrian Council will not enter into any dialogue that offers Assad and the Ba'athists even the remotest chance of holding on to power in the country. Assad and his allies (Russia, China, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas) will not enter into any dialogue that demands that Assad steps aside. That brings the situation to an impasse - so they battle it out and, like Libya's Gaddafi, Assad will fall, either to the "rebels" or to the Syrian Ba'ath Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:24 AM

Prosor also stressed the connections between Syrian regime and "its evil allies" Iran and Hezbollah. "The experience and capabilities of Iran and Hezbollah in repression are on full display in Syria. They provide weapons, ammunition, training, intelligence and logistical equipment to Assad," he said.

"Assad's partners in this 'trio of terror' are not shy about discussing their role in the slaughter. Last week, Nasrallah gave a speech praising the Assad regime, calling it 'a real military partner.' And just several days ago, Iran's vice president promised the Syrian foreign minister that Iran will continue to offer its 'experience and capabilities' to Assad's killing machine."

"It is time for the international community to hold all three members of this 'trio of terror' accountable for their crimes," he concluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:10 PM

"An unsubstantiated newspaper article becomes unassailable fact - it isn't"
Not unsubstantiated (if you are referring to the FACT that Britain sold ammunition to Assad, which both you and your friend identified as sniper bullets - sorry sniper rifles which turned out to be sniper rifle bullets).
"You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles."
The article (Guardian) carried a an official government chart showing the sale actually existed and was licenced for export.
You then about turned and first (without evidence) claimed that the licence was cancelled, then, failing to convince, you now appear to be claiming it didn't exist - want me to dig it up once more to save you the stress of doing it for yourself, or do you think you can manage it by yourself?
You fick friend went through six different explanations for the sale, finally settling on 'I mistook Libya for Syria'.
I'd stick to your bar-room soldiering if I were you.
"The UK government was and is involved."
"Mr Annan criticised the Security Council for failing to back his peace plan. "At a time when we need – when the Syrian people desperately need – action, there continues to be finger-pointing and name calling in the Security Council,"
"No he did not".
From my posting the day after the Question Time broadcast
"On BBC's Question Time last night, UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond; Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley Williams; and Daily Mail journalist Ann Leslie claimed it would be unwise for the West to intervene in the Syrian situation - Alastair Campbell waffled and said nothing coherent. All claimed that Assad was preferable to any alternative Government.... Ironically, comedian Steve Coogan was the only one on the panel calling for some sort of action."
To which the Chocolate soldier responded:
"Sounds like the "typical" BBC Question Time panel it had only one person with any grasp of what is the right thing to do. The panel members? two politicians, the spin doctor who pushed for action in Iraq, a journalist and a comedian. And it is the comedian who got it right - now why am I not surprised at that - all the others have to be told what to think before they walk out the door."
Now let's see where he has gone from here - about turn, quick march, no doubt!!
What a pair of tossers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:13 PM

Must we go over this again Jim?
A licence for small arms ammunition may have been issued, BUT BRITAIN DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING THAT ASSAD'S MILTARY USE.

SO HOW COULD WE SELL IT TO HIM?

There is nothing, anywhere that even implies sniper ammunition, SO WHY DO YOU KEEP ON ABOUT IT?????

Your insane, deranged obsession to implicate a blameless Britain is making you a laughing stock.

Meanwhile, Assad, Russia, China and Iran collude in the massacre of innocents and children, while you obsess about blaming Britain who has done more than any other to stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:29 PM

BBC today.
Iran's security chief has told President Bashar al-Assad that Syria is part of a vital regional alliance that Tehran will not allow to be broken.

Mr Jalili was quoted as saying: "Iran will not allow the axis of resistance, of which it considers Syria to be an essential part, to be broken in any way."

Correspondents say "axis of resistance" refers to Iran, Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Gaza.

The UK said on Tuesday it was quadrupling its aid for refugees fleeing fighting in Syria.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday that the international community had to plan for the fall of the Syrian regime.

Speaking in South Africa, she said: "The intensity of the fighting in Aleppo, the defections, really point out how imperative it is that we come together and work toward a good transition plan."

British-based activist group Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said 270 people were killed across Syria on Monday. It said 61 civilians died in Aleppo province alone.

Activists estimate more than 20,000 people have died since the uprising against President Assad began in March last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:16 PM

"Must we go over this again Jim?"
Your moronic necrophobe of a friend brought it up.
I don't give a toss if Britain makes it or not - you say that it doesn't but there again, you haven't stopped lying on this forum.
I suppose it would be a waste of my time asking you for proof that Britain does not "MAKE ANYTHING THAT ASSAD'S MILTARY USE"; you have ignored all requests to do so so far. Do you really have such intimate knowledge of either Syria's military or Britains armaments manufacturing output?
"There is nothing, anywhere that even implies sniper ammunition,"
It was you who first identified the sale as being of sniper rifles - and later changed it to sniper bullets
"You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
Apart from anything else, it really does take a special level of stupidity to attempt to downplay the importance of sniper rifles considering the fact that you opened this thread at the time the citizens of Homs, women and children included, were being slaughtered by sniper fire - you really are a bear with very little brain, aren't you?
Your fick mate then backed you up that the sale was of sniper bullets, and he spends most of his life telling his mates down the pub that he is an arms and military expert - he even flashed his weapon for our benefit.
So far we have had around half-a-dozen contradictory reasons for the sale from you:
1: The British Government has sold no weapons to Syria
2: That the 154 export licences issued by the British Government for anything being exported to Syria were all revoked in line with EU rules
3: There are no records of sale or delivery of the ammunition mentioned in your Daily Mail article
4: It was pointed out that the only type of ammunition that Syria could use fitted one type of rifle and the sale (If it ever took place) was for a tiny amount of ammunition and it pre-dated the Arab Spring type demonstrations in Syria by two years.
5: You thought we were talking about Libya (even though you had referred to Syria numerous times in defence of the sale)
6: Now you are claiming that Syria wouldn't buy them because they did not suit the weapons they used (as if you knew what weapons Syria used or what type of ammunition Britain manufactures.
You are a liar Keith, but luckily you are not very bright, which makes you an obvious liar.
You really have dug yourself into a hole with your prevarications - have you measured the length of your nose lately?
Yours as ever,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 04:31 PM

I suppose it would be a waste of my time asking you for proof that Britain does not "MAKE ANYTHING THAT ASSAD'S MILTARY USE"; you have ignored all requests to do so so far.
Lie.
Teribus gave you a link to a site cataloguing all Assad's weapon systems and their requirements.
None compatible with UK equipment.

"There is nothing, anywhere that even implies sniper ammunition,"
There is not.
You must be mad to claim me as a source!
I am telling you again that I have no knowledge of any.
It would have to be secret knowledge, because it can not be found anywhere, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:17 PM

Enough of that ludicrous diversion from a serious subject.

What is your opinion of the "axis of resistance" against Israel?
i.e. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Gaza.

I despise them.
Not for any irrational reason, but for their inhumanity.
Can we agree on that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:05 AM

Carry On Frothing - Christmas, its mildly amusing

Facts still remain

The British sold no weapons to Syria

British Government Ministers to not declare Official Government Policy on Television Current Affairs Programmes, if they do anything they, like others appearing on the programme (even Comedians), express their own private opinions.

The rest of the world wants the violence to end in Syria, the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Hezbollah and Hamas want to keep the Assad regime in power and it has been a long time since that was ever going to be accepted by the Syrian people.

Russia - Pure self interest
China - Same
Iran - needs Assad in place to maintain arms supplies to Hezbollah and to Hamas
Hezbollah - need the support of Iran and Assad's regime
Hamas - Same.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:37 AM

"Russia - Pure self interest"
Britain and the US - indifference because there's no oil there.
"You must be mad to claim me as a source!"
You were not the source - the Guardian article which included a chart of British arms sales was the source - you merely identified the sale as sniper bullets and presented the sale as unimportant - "but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles" - at a time the citizens of Homs were being slaughtered by sniper fire - says all that needs to be said about your supposed sympathy for the Syrian people.
"Teribus gave you a link to a site cataloguing all Assad's weapon systems and their requirements."
No he didn't - he presented an unsubstantiated list. No government, especially despotic dictatorships, makes public their weaponry.
Both have you have made up 'facts' to back up your disgusting opinions on this thread and elsewhere.
"British Government Ministers to not declare Official Government Policy on Television Current Affairs Programmes"
Any Government declares its policies wherever it is convenient to do so - television interviews, press leaks, sandwiched into subjects that have nothing whatever to do with the information they wish to pass on.
What I reported the day after the programme, was said as described - I would have been insane to make up that information to people who could well have watched one of the most popular current affair programmes in Britain - only Keith does prattish things like that.
You responded to it and have about turned because it has become inconvenient to your present argument.
Jim (Christmas- nice to be back in primary school again - takes decades off my age) Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:39 AM


Britain and the US - indifference because there's no oil there.
What a stupid thing to say.
Anyone following KNOWS that UK/US have not been indifferent, and there is oil.
The TV show.
The Minister could not have denied government policy without consequences, and there were none.
UK government policy was to get Assad out, before and after the show.
I have proved that with official reports and statements.

Your only source for sniper stuff to Syria is me, and I deny it.
You are mad to keep claiming it.

I do not believe any ammunition was supplied, but back when the licence was issued, Assad was not shooting his people.
The small arms would all be pointing at Israel and YOU would not have objected.

Now seriously, what is your opinion of the "axis of resistance" ?
i.e. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Gaza.

I despise them.
Not for any irrational reason, but for their inhumanity.
Can we agree on that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:27 AM

Today, rebels claim to have killed a Russian General near Damascus, and Iran admits some of its captured people were Islamic Revolutionary Guards, but that they had retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 08:11 AM

"and there is oil.
"
No long term oil - within five years Syria will be oil dependent - official - no good to the west I'm afraid.
"Your only source for sniper stuff to Syria is me, and I deny it."
In which case your suggestion that "all you have come up with is some sniper rifles" was an attempt to mislead us - a lie to cover up the sale of small arms ammunition which exists as a documented sale - a lose-lose situation for you whatever line you have now adopted.
"Assad was not shooting his people."
Maybe not but he was arresting them without trial, torturing and disappearing them the Britsih Government wree aware of this yet were still prepared to issue licences to such a monter - an act of evil "can we agree about that?"
"Not for any irrational reason, but for their inhumanity."
I despise all inhuman regimes, including those who use chemical weapons and heavy artillery on civilians, try to starve them into submission, humiliate them on a daily basis, facilitate the massacre of thousands of refugees, murder aid workers..... and those who support them and sell them weapons - can we agree on that or are you selective about which particular terrorist states you despise?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 09:15 AM

In which case your suggestion that "all you have come up with is some sniper rifles" was an attempt to mislead us
No.
As I keep telling you, a mistake.
The only sniper rifles you came up with were not for Syria.

Oil.
"The SPC has undertaken efforts to reverse the trend toward declining oil production and exports by
increasing oil exploration and production in partnership with foreign oil companies. However,
previous US sanctions have excluded U.S. companies from participating, and Syria has been
working with Chinese, Indian, as well as European companies.
Bids have begun to be awarded from a March 2010 bidding round for eight onshore blocks. Total
and Petro-Canada were among the first companies to be awarded exploration licenses in May 2011.
Syria has also opened up its offshore territory for development, although this region is expected to
contain primarily natural gas. The Syrian Ministry of Petroleum and Mineral Resources and SPC
placed three offshore blocks for bid in March 2011, with a deadline of October 5 for submission of
bids.
In addition, Syria's Ministry of Petroleum and Mineral Resources and General Establishment of
Geology and Mineral Resources (GEGMR) announced a bidding round for the development of oil
shale deposits in al-Khanasir, 60 miles southeast of Aleppo. The area for bid consists of 14 blocks,
with total shale oil deposits estimated at 39 billion tons (285 billion barrels). The submission of bids is
due by November 30, 2011."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 09:26 AM


I despise all inhuman regimes, including those who use chemical weapons and heavy artillery on civilians, try to starve them into submission, humiliate them on a daily basis, facilitate the massacre of thousands of refugees, murder aid workers..... and those who support them and sell them weapons - can we agree on that

YES WE CAN!
And we must both despise that despicable "axis of resistance"
i.e. Iran, Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:37 PM

"As I keep telling you, a mistake."
Your earlier suggestion the you "thought we were talking about Libya" was not only a lie, but an extremely stupid one, as our argument continues copnstantly referring to Syria.
The mistake was in, having identified the ammunition sold as sniper rifles/bullets, you never got your story straight, hence you went through six different versions before you settled on "a mistake".
You backed away from your "some sniper rifles" is when you realised what a foot-in-mouth you had made.
"Oil."
And your point is???
As your article underlines, Syria's oil supply is diminishing at a rate of knots and, unless they find more, they are of no use whatever to the US and Britain as an oil supplier as things stand.
"Syria's oil reserves are being gradually depleted and reached 2.5 billion barrels in January 2009. Experts generally agree that Syria will become a net importer of petroleum by the end of the next decade."
Should they prove successful, which will take years to achieve given the state of the country now, not even the US and Britain, with their record of dealing with terrorist regimes ("We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records",)and backing them with a veto at the UN when necessary, will dare have any dealings with Assad.
Assad's heavy handedness has made his regime useless as a friendly voice in the Middle East virtually useless - in the past it has been a case of "he may be a monster, but he's OUR monster", to quote a US statesman when talking about Marshall Ky in Viet-Nam - no longer applicable in Syria.
"the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas in Gaza."
Yet more Zionist soapboxing - we have no meeting point while you continue to use the fate of the Syrian people as platform for your support for Zionist terrorism. Include all terrorist nations and groups and we might have a meeting point, but not your hypocritical and partisan selectivity.
Nor do we while you indulge in what Kofi Annan described as "finger-pointing". There is blood on the hands of all who have stood by and watched as the slaughter escalates.
The Americans had no problem in becoming involved in the Gulf when its oil supplies were threatened. Britain conducted an illegal invasion of Iraq under the pretence of non- existant WMDs.
Your guardian suggested that it would be "gung-ho" to directly assist the Syrians, yet none of you apologists batted an eyelid when the US sent an invasion force to take out Bin Laden.
TheSyrians have no oil supplies to speak of and, as you have pointed out, they are not to be trusted "I also fear for Syria's Christians if and when the regime falls" so they are left to die while callous bastards stand on the sidelines and support the inactivity (while shedding the occasional crockodile tear.
Now, unless you have anything new to add to your disgusting contribution to the subject.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:05 PM

Keith, Jim, I can see that you are both very passionate about this issue. You have pretty much had the run of this thread. I probably should know more so I could decide where I fall on the issue. Embarrassingly enough, I have not done this. However, I think that no matter who your heroes are in this, it is a human tragedy on a large scale.

But I doubt if either of you is going to convince the other. And I cannot begin to sift through the whole thread. YMMV.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:54 PM

I do not lie.
I made that statement on 11th Feb believing you had evidence.
In fact your evidence was of sniper rifles for Libya.
You would have realised this but let it go on.
By 16th it was clear none had gone to Syria and I accused you of having lied.
Sorry.
Later still I re-read your original post and acknowledged my error.

Having nothing else you continue even now to make capital from it.

Oil.
There is a significant amount and more to come.
Too much to dismiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:05 PM

Saulgoldie, I take your point.
I started the thread and keep it going when no-one else posts.

Middle East threads are usually active, but this subject is difficult for the Left.

To Jim's credit, he was horrified by Assad's crimes and joined in.
The problem is that Assad's enemies are the Gulf Arabs and the West, who he hates, and Assad's friends are the old darlings of the Left.

All Jim can do is try to divert the thread to the arms trade, and find fault with Britain where there is none.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 10:15 AM

UK is giving an extra £5m of equipment to the opposition, mostly to the FSA.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:44 PM

BBC
"She (Hilary Clinton) said after talks in Istanbul that she had discussed with Turkey's foreign minister how best to support opposition to President Bashar al-Assad's rule.

The US, she said, was also increasing aid for Syrian refugees."

Russia, China, Iran, Hezbolla, Hamas, Cuba, still trying to prop up Assad.

I am off for a couple of weeks.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:32 AM

BBC today.
Hillary Clinton has called on the United Nations Security Council to make a renewed effort to deal with the conflict in Syria.

UK Prime Minister David Cameron has also demanded UN action.

France, Britain and the United States are in favour of taking stronger action against President Bashar al-Assad, but Russia and China are backing the Syrian government.

Mrs Clinton said that the Security Council must end the violence and urged the members to "try once again to find a path forward".

David Cameron also called on the UN to act, telling the annual meeting of the UN General Assembly that recent evidence of crimes against children in Syria is "a terrible stain on the reputation of this United Nations".

He singled out those countries which "failed to stand up to these atrocities and in some cases aided and abetted Assad's reign of terror" for particular criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

BEIRUT (Reuters) - More than 300 people were killed in Syria on Wednesday, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said, in one of the bloodiest days in the 18-month uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.
World leaders meeting at the United Nations have expressed concern at the continuing violence in Syria but are deadlocked over their response to the conflict, which the Observatory says has claimed 30,000 lives since March 2011.
The British-based organization, which monitors violence in Syria through a network of activists, said in a report released on Thursday that 55 people were killed in rural areas around Damascus. They included at least 40 who appeared to have been shot in cold blood in the town of al-Dhiyabia, southeast of the capital.
Other activists have put the death toll in al-Dhiyabia as high as 107, blaming Assad's security forces for what they said was a massacre. Video published by activists showed rows of bloodied corpses wrapped in blankets. The victims shown on camera appeared to be male, from 20-year-olds to elderly men.
The Observatory also said 14 people were killed in a rebel bomb attack on a military command centre in Damascus and in an ensuing prolonged gunbattle between rebels and security forces.
Violence in Syria has deepened as the fight against Assad has became more militarized and the president has responded with increasing use of force - including regular air strikes and bombardments against rebel areas.
In the first nine months of the conflict, the United Nations human rights chief said around 5,000 people had been killed. U.N. officials have given up trying to monitor the violence but the Observatory's figures suggest five times as many people have been killed in the second nine-month period.
The Centre for Documentation of Violations in Syria, which is linked to the grassroots anti-Assad Local Coordination Committees, puts the overall death toll at 27,318.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 05:29 AM

Sixty thousand documented deaths so far according to UN, plus unknowable number undocumented.
UN describes as unexpectedly and shockingly high.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 01:08 PM

Time to remember that the West, who did nothing (unless you count selling Assad sniper rifle ammunition - or so I'm informed by 'experts')
have, by their inaction, driven the Syrian people into the arms of the militant extremists (or so we are informed by the Syrian opposition to the Assad regime "the west has stood by and done nothing..."!!!)- but they could be lying, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 06:21 AM

There you have it.
Sixty thousand killings, everyone committed by Arabs, using weapons supplied by Russia, China, Iran or Arabs, but who does Knee-Jerk Jim blame?
The West of course!
Only the West.
A grim subject Jim, but your total predictability is comical.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 06:24 AM

Jim, do you still advocate more Western boots marching in to another Arab land?
Do you still advocate an embargo on the already starving Syrians?

For a Leftie you make a good Fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 07:47 AM

You have the evidence before you of the part the Un an and the West in general played in Syria - you were even good enough to identify the sniper ammunition information yourself
It is the job of the UN to get involved , as they did in the other Arab Spring revolts; and, had there been anything in it for them the US wouldn't have hestated, with the full blessing of their Westminster poodle
You've had the facts, you've done your Henry Irving tragedy scene - now put up or shut up
Memo to self fo the new year - avoid vaccuous jackbooted morons
Byee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:44 AM

I have repeatedly admitted my mistaken reference to sniper ammunition supplied to Syria.
As there is no other reference to it from anyone else in the whole world, it clearly never existed.
You know this, but you still attempt to make a case over it.
It shows how pathetic you argument was and is.

The UN is not the West Jim.
The clue is in the name.
The West can do nothing within UN because two permanent Security Council members, China and Russia, block every attempt.
So who does Knee-Jerk Jim blame?

The West of course!
Only the West.
Again your total predictability is comical.

Jim, do you still advocate more Western boots marching in to another Arab land?
Do you still advocate an embargo on the already starving Syrians?

For a Leftie you make a good Fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

In her final press interview as US Secretary of State, Mrs Clinton said one of Iran's "highest priorities" was keeping Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in power.

"We believe they have acted on that by sending in more personnel, not only to help Assad, but to support and advise military security forces," she told reporters.

Mrs Clinton added that Iran had increased the quality of its arms sent to Syria because "Assad is using up his weaponry".

She expressed similar concerns with regards to Russia's involvement in the conflict.

"We have reason to believe that the Russians continue to supply financial and military assistance in the form of equipment," she said

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:05 AM

CNN) -- Shouting condemnation and promises of retaliation, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah on Thursday condemned Israel's decision to send warplanes into Syria, calling its airstrike a day before "inhuman" and "barbaric."
Russia also condemned Wednesday's attack, saying it would represent an unprovoked violation of United Nations charter if confirmed.
Syria's Foreign Ministry summoned the commander of U.N. forces in the Golan Heights on Thursday to formally complain about the incident, while Iran's deputy foreign minister, Hossein Amir Abdollahian, warned the attack would have "dire consequences" for Israel, according to Iran's semiofficial Mehr News Agency.

I think that Israel had a legitimate concern about Hezbollah getting "game changing" weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:56 AM

New milestones.
Death toll now put at 70 000.
Refugees now reached one million.
7 000 fleeing Syria every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 13 - 08:20 AM

What is a "red line"?
Sarin is believed to have been used.
That was supposed to be one.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 13 - 02:16 AM

Guardian today.
Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, has confirmed for the first time that members of the powerful Lebanese Shia organisation are helping President Bashar al-Assad fight the uprising against his rule – and will stand by him.

Nasrallah – a close ally of Assad – also hinted that Russia and Iran, Syria's principal supporters, would intervene militarily to prevent his defeat.

"Syria has real friends in the region and the world that will not let Syria fall in the hands of America, Israel or Takfiri (extreme jihadi) groups," Nasrallah said in a broadcast on Hezbollah's al-Manar TV channel. "How will this happen? Details will come later. I say this based on information … rather than wishful thinking."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 13 - 03:10 AM

More horrific massacres last week.
UN inspector says rebels used Sarin.
Israel made more and bigger strikes against missiles being transferred to Hezbollah.
The refugee crisis is a humanitarian catastrophe.
No-one knows what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:55 AM

Russia and US to hold conference.
They are hoping to get regime and opposition to talk.
Hope it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:34 PM

Political scientist and public intellectual Michael Ignatieff says the international community has a duty to intervene in Syria. He told DW that he sees signs of the emergence of new global security architecture.

Ignatieff: 'We have a duty to intervene in Syria'

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:37 PM

Let's hope Putin is prepared to move this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:09 AM

Thousands of Sunnis from Lebanon are in Syria fighting against Lebanese Shia, mainly Hezbollah.
How long before they fight each other within Lebanonn, restarting the civil war there?
Likewise Iraq. Thousands of Shia are in Syria while back in Iraq Sunni/Shia massacres are spiralling out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 13 - 05:02 PM

More than 70 massacred in Iraq today.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: mayomick
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:46 AM

The US government is trying to destabilize the Syrian regime while the latter is battling Al Qaida. And then an NYT editorial today asks why Russia is arming Syria! The Assad regime may be far from perfect , but isn't Al qaida supposed to be America's number one enemy ? I would have thought it more appropriate to ask why America isn't arming Syria.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/opinion/why-is-russia-still-arming-syria.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 08:34 AM

"The US government is trying to destabilize the Syrian regime while the latter is battling Al Qaida."

Absolute fear mongering tripe.

Educate yourself: Guide to the Syrian opposition

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: mayomick
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:45 PM

I've just read the BBC's guide to the Syrian opposition and it is absolute codswallop . I hope you're not a supporter of Islamic terrorism , Bobad .
Read the world socialist website and you'll get a far better insight into what's really going on in Syria than you will on the BBC :

"Far from providing "humanitarian aid" and backing a "moderate" opposition, they are arming far-right Islamist militias with the help of Middle Eastern allies like Turkey and Saudi Arabia, whose efforts are overseen by the CIA."


http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05/14/syri-m14.html
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05/14/syri-m14.html

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:18 PM

You dismiss the BBC report yet you cite the World Socialist Website as your authority? C'mon, you're putting me on, right?

Here is a comprehensive outline of The Structure and Organization of the Syrian Opposition including it's fighting units.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: mayomick
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:14 PM

You dismiss my comment with a patronising "educate yourself" reference to the BBC , I don't see why I shouldn't dismiss what you say with a reference to the WSWS, Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 09:04 PM

It appears that Assad's forces, reinforced by fighters from the Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah, are starting to turn the tables on the rebels leading to the prospect of the two sides engaging in peace talks.

The Raw Story

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:17 AM

Also Shia fighters from Iraq, and assistance from Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 13 - 10:49 AM

DEAD SEA, Jordan — Lebanon's Hezbollah has 5,000 troops fighting alongside President Bashar Assad's forces in Syria, and another 5,000 are getting ready to join them, a World Economic Forum gathering heard Sunday.

Salman Shaikh, director of the Doha Center of the Brookings Institution think tank, said there were also 1,500-2,000 fighters from Iraq in the battlegrounds of Syria. He said that not only was Syria "on the abyss," but that after two years of civil war, there was growing danger that the fighting could draw in "the entire region."

Shaikh cited the Hezbollah figures a day after the Shiite group's leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah admitted for the first time that his group had deployed fighters to Syria, saying his group would not stand idly by while its chief ally is under attack.

Shaikh said Israel "should do its best to stay out of the conflict." But "it should also give up on the old paradigm of 'better the devil you know.'" He said his fear was that "Israel will be increasingly drawn in" — in part because of ongoing Russian weapons supplies to Syria, and because the UN peacekeeping forces in Syria and Lebanon were coming under increasing strain.

Shaikh said that the US hesitation over intervention in Syria derived in part from the legacy of the "illegal war" in Iraq. President Barack Obama, he said, "doesn't want to get involved in the complexity of the Syrian crisis." He said that hesitancy was likely to persist, though it could be affected by the use of chemical weapons and the degree of extremist involvement in the fighting.

But only a fool would believe that the latest attempts at negotiation were going to make a difference, he said. The Assad regime does not take the so-called Geneva process seriously, he said. Instead, it is looking ahead to elections next year, and has already "calculated" the result — a victory for Assad with 70-75 percent of the vote.

The killing of civilians in Syria "is going to on for a very long time," he said. "Many more are going to die in the months and possibly years ahead."

At the same panel, Sarah Leah Whitson, director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa division, said the regime was responsible for the overwhelming majority of human rights abuses since the fighting broke out. She said HRW had recently found torture devices used by the regime — included devices used "to stretch people to death." HRW had not found a basis for allegations of widespread rape, she said.

The gathering was told that there are currently some 1.5 million Syrian refugees in neighboring countries — and that this number would likely double by the year's end.

More than 70,000 people have been killed since the uprising against Assad erupted in March 2011 and escalated into a civil war. The Syrian government and Hezbollah deny there is an uprising in Syria, portraying the war as a foreign-backed conspiracy driven by Israel, the US and its Gulf Arab allies.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 13 - 09:35 AM

Chemical warfare in Syria

Le Monde

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 13 - 10:43 AM

EU has voted not to renew arms embargo.
UK will start supplying arms to "moderate rebels" in August if no negotiations forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 13 - 01:30 PM

Unbelievable hypocrisy and stupidity.
Supplying "moderate rebels" with arms is going to lessen the killing?
What planet does that cunt Hague live on? Is he related to the Bloody Earl?

Does anyone seriously think that any weapons sent to the "moderate rebels" will not immediately be appropriated by the "immoderate rebels"

It would be funny if it wasn't so bloody pathetic, the country is being raised to the ground by an insurrection, the regime cant stop for if they do they will end up dead and with a bayonet up their arses, just like col Gadaffi.

Perhaps with their hearts and livers eaten by the "moderate and immoderate rebels"

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 13 - 04:16 AM

Yes, but there is this overwhelming feeling that "something must be done" about a monstrous evil that we have to see on our screens every day.
Last night we all endured "the worst massacre so far."

We sort of expect our leaders to know what to do for the best.
They don't and nor does anyone else.
The least bad outcome may be that one side wins quickly, whatever carnage it takes, and however grim their philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:09 AM

UN report says "new levels of brutality."

"War crimes, crimes against humanity and gross human rights violations continue apace," it added, reporting 17 incidents that could be called massacres between mid-January and mid-May.

The panel cited increasing use of indiscriminate weapons, including cluster munitions, barrel bombs and surface-to-surface missiles as evidence of the "flagrant disregard" of government forces for the distinction between combatants and civilians demanded by international law.

"crimes that shock the conscience have become a daily reality," Mr. Pinheiro said, reciting a list of abuses that included murder, extrajudicial execution, torture, recruitment of children and hostage taking.

There was a disparity between the abuses and crimes committed by government forces and militia and those conducted by rebel groups, he acknowledged, "but this is a disparity in intensity, it is not a disparity in the nature of the crimes." He added, "They are the same."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:26 AM

Dozens of women and children were killed in May in the coastal villages of Baida and Banias, where evidence links the slaughter to government-backed militia, it said.

Eleven kneeling, blindfolded men were shot in the back of the head in Deir al-Zor province by al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front rebels, the report said, citing a video that appeared in May.

Regarding a separate incident near Deir al-Zor in which the evidence also points to rebels, it said: "Video footage emerged showing a child participating in the beheading of two kidnapped men. Following investigation, it is believed that the video is authentic and the men were soldiers, killed as depicted."

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:34 AM

"Had he [President Obama] armed Syria's rebels early in the conflict, he could have empowered a moderate opposition, toppled the regime, sidelined Sunni jihadists, prevented the bloodbath we now have, stemmed the refugee crisis and dealt a sharp strategic setback to Iran—all without any U.S. military involvement."

Bret Stephens: The Muslim Civil War WSJ

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:22 PM

There appears no reason to think that a victory by the opposition would not lead to an oppressive and bloodthirsty regime very bit as bad as the Assad regime. Different people would get persecuted and slaughtered, in revenge directed at minority communities who had backed.

This is increasingly, it appears,a conflict between those carrying out atrocities fuelled by fear and those carrying them out fuelled by fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 10:22 PM

There appears no reason to think that a victory by the opposition would not lead to an oppressive and bloodthirsty regime every bit as bad as the Assad regime. Different people would get persecuted and slaughtered, especially in revenge directed at minority communities who had backed Assad.

This is increasingly, it appears,a conflict between those carrying out atrocities fuelled by fear and those carrying them out fuelled by fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 04:13 AM

I agree again McG.

Meanwhile,
Thousands of children have been killed in unrest in Syria since March 2011, according to a new UN report on children and armed conflict.

... children in Syria were suffering "maybe the heaviest toll" in the world, said UN special representative Leila Zerrougui, who presented the findings.

"They are killed, they are maimed, they are recruited, they are detained, they are tortured", she told journalists in New York.

The report accused Syrian troops of torturing children suspected of having links to rebel groups.

But it said armed opposition groups, including the Free Syrian Army, were also using children, both in combat and in support roles such as transporting supplies and loading cartridges.

More than 80,000 people are thought to have died in the Syrian conflict, and some two million children are in need of assistance, according to official estimates.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 07:51 AM

About 93,000 dead now. Notice the silence......

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:05 AM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/12/it-s-about-time-united-nations-plans-refugee-camps-for-syrians-in-lebanon.html?

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 13 - 10:51 PM

From April, 23, 2013.


It was Zionist propaganda when Israel said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror (Syria, 2012)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 08:18 AM

Robert Fisk writes today,
The Independent on Sunday has learned that a military decision has been taken in Iran – even before last week's presidential election – to send a first contingent of 4,000 Iranian Revolutionary Guards to Syria to support President Bashar al-Assad's forces against the largely Sunni rebellion that has cost almost 100,000 lives in just over two years. Iran is now fully committed to preserving Assad's regime, according to pro-Iranian sources which have been deeply involved in the Islamic Republic's security, even to the extent of proposing to open up a new 'Syrian' front on the Golan Heights against Israel.