BS: Where now Thatcher haters?

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:35 AM

Musket, "One nation Tory" is a title that interests me. Downunder in Aus, "One Nation" was like the Australian version of your BNP.

To quote One Nation's founder, (with tongue firmly in cheek) "Please explain"

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:11 AM

"The first several Belgrano posts were all from your Lefty mates"
And the've been taken up by your ultra-right mob to gloss over Thatchers fascist tendencies and the Conservative Party's allowing her to turn her/your party into a rallying call for a mass murderer and the British police force into a private army to be used againt the miners ("The Enemy Within" in her own words) - among the many other atrocities she committed while in office.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:24 AM

How about, if for a lark
We voted Tory - for Kenneth Clark?
That man with a protruding tum
Who inflicted the National
Curriculum -
On every school
Throughout Britain.
He's the best....!
You must be shittin'!

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:31 AM

Bugsy: "Please explain"

One Nation Tory is the acknowledgement that there can be 'two nations' within a country: the haves and have nots, or rich and poor.

The idea of 'One Nation Toryism' is to bridge any inequality with obligation from both halves to each other. The obligation of the rich/powerful/elite was to acknowledge that whilst a class structure/hierarchy might be somehow 'inevitable', those at the bottom should also benefit from that hierarchy (not just those at the top) through paternalism and social reforms.

This all went out of the window back in the 1970s, which is why it's relevant to Thatcher and Thatcher haters. David Cameron talks about 'One Nation Toryism' now but it's hard not to see this as part of the the drive to portray the Tories as no longer being the "nasty party". Current Tory politics don't exactly back-up this talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:36 AM

"The first several Belgrano posts were all from your Lefty mates"
And the've been taken up by your ultra-right mob to gloss over Thatchers....
No they have not.
The false and ludicrous statements about it were merely refuted by Teribus, Richard and me.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:47 AM

Thanks for enlightening me wyrdolafr.

Obviously (and thankfully) very different to Pauline Hanson's One Nation.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:21 AM

No problem, Bugsby. I could have probably explained it better but I think that's the gist of it. In some ways 'One Nation Toryism' represents the left of the Conservative party with the post-Thatcherite free-marketeers and 'individualists' representing the right of the party.

Yes, it's a slightly different political battleground than the Pauline Hanson 'One Nation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:24 AM

Just a reminder that the concept of The Two Nations came from the subtitle to the novel Sybil [1845] ~~ by - er - one Benjamin Disraeli.

A Tory, if memory serves...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

MtheGM, we're actually talking *about* Tories. One Nation Toryism was, not that surprisingly, a Tory-specific take on a problem recognised by all politicians during the 19th Century. Surely the clue is in the name?

No one is disputing that Disraeli didn't put together that the concept of 'Two Nations' or that he put forward a 'One Nation' political strategy in response. Although, at the said time, it was also opportunistic ragging on the Whigs, in the same way that modern politicians do today with all political opponents.

Disraeli might have been a Tory, but it's worth pointing out that he wouldn't be Tory enough for a lot of the current Tories. And, possibly, for some of the tin-foil hat wearing far right, a touch too Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:44 AM

That last post was me, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:58 AM

"The false and ludicrous statements"
Neither false nor ludicrous.
At the time the sinking of the Belgrano was at best, controversial, many nations, even Britain's allies treated it as a possible war crime.
Thatcher was uneasy enough about its legality to lie and claim that the ship was within the agreed restriction line, and was fordced to withdraw this after she had been humiliated by a schoolteacher on a phone-in
The sinking of a ship outside an agreed restriction zone and steaming away from battle remains unresolved: Thatcher was forced to say at her public humiliation that "One day the truth will be known" - that definitive "truth" has yet to be revealed and it continues to be a matter for argument.
What is ludicrous is that a pair of tossers like you and Termite should have some sort of "refutation" - no such exists, no matter how many quotes our shootist friend comes up with from British Commanders, the killing of a ship-full of men not involved in battle is at best an extremely dubious act - every bit as dubious as machinegunning shipwrecked sailors because they might prove a future threat.
Personally, as I said in the beginning, I really don't give a toss one way or the other. If, as Richard said, it was one of the few things Thatcher got right, so be it, it doesn't alter the fact that her government was the nearest thing Britain ever got to an extremist fascist dictatorship and if you want to use a possible war crime as a diversion from that fact - feel free.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:05 AM

Must admit, The Belgrano has had too much debate, considering we are talking the lingering existence leading to inevitable death of someone who thought she knew how to run a country

The fact is, the legacy of her incompetent style and extreme policies is still affecting us now and shall do for many more years to come.

Yes, we shall one day know how much The Belgrano was a threat and whether the suspicion of many, myself included, is correct and it was a political decision made at No.10 or a tactical military decision after all. In the meantime, we have enough reasons to hope, as I keep repeating, that her grave has a sprung dance floor.

I am put on the left or the right by others on threads, neither of which would describe me. However, she called the likes of me "the enemy within" so by that standard, she wants me to think of her as the enemy. Considering her legacy is still a threat; "Sink the old bitch."

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:19 AM

many nations, even Britain's allies treated it as a possible war crime.

No they did not.

Musket and Jim,
The Independent, 3rd April 2012
Rear-Admiral Walter Allara, in command of the Belgrano battlegroup, said: "The entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, felt it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano." Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentinian Navy in the 1990s, said the cruiser was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force and that she was holding off from carrying out an attack for purely tactical reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:33 AM

"her government was the nearest thing Britain ever got to an extremist fascist dictatorship" ~~~
.,,.,..,
Well then, aren't we the lucky ones!

Some of you try living [or ultimately not living, like a lot of my quite close relations ~ haven't counted how many of my father's aunts & uncles & first cousins] some time, under a real one of those. And count your blessings, you ignorant selfrighteous fools. You don't know you're bloody born!

& you think you might be better off under the sort of socialist paradise that ass Woodson has just been drivelling on about on the Prince Harry thread, do you? Hohoho...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:40 AM

And ,
Galtieri's Argentina was an "extremist Fascist dictatorship."

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:58 AM

"Galtieri's Argentina was an "extremist Fascist dictatorship."
So would Thatcher's Britain have been had she got her way - no doubt she could have called on her Chilian friend for help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM

M. Einstein proved the theory of relativity; Newton proved the existence of the laws of motion; a dedicated team of physicists has just proved the existence of the God particle; and I have just proved that it is impossible for you to debate the existence of anything with anyone on this board without resorting to ignorant childish abuse.

Grow up!

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM

Talk about Pots & Kettles - in ♠♠♠

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:43 AM

See what I mean. Michael Grosvener Myer can't debate the existence of anything with anyone on this board without resorting to ignorant childish abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM

As I might just have said once before -

Talk about Pots & Kettles - in ♠♠♠

(& I should be fascinated to learn what is abusive about that...)

This one could run and run.......................

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

e.g. ~ Woodson wrote on the Harry thread

"What a tosser."

When I wished above to question his intellect I called him "an ass" [&, to clarify, not in the US, "Americans-can't-spell-bottom", sense].

Which of us, I leave it to all fair-minded readers of this exchange to assess, is the more prone to posting 'ignorant childish abuse'.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:40 PM

Mike if you think ANY of us are going to wade through all your posts and this Welsh blokes to divide the honours....words fail me.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

I expect no such thing, Al: was simply referring to the two examples in my last post as reasonably typical.

Still, I don't know quite why I have let myself be drawn back into a battle of words with this exceptionally unintelligent young man. Shall just leave it here and not bother with this thread any more.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:36 PM

I will, though, because I am genuinely curious, cite the following posts ~~

From: Owen Woodson - PM
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:43 AM
See what I mean. Michael Grosvener Myer can't debate the existence of anything with anyone on this board without resorting to ignorant childish abuse.

The opening four words can only mean that it is written in direct response to what I had just posted, which was -

From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM
Talk about Pots & Kettles - in ♠♠♠

Now, I am greatly exercised as to where, in that post he is responding to, Mr Woodson finds anything to justify the accusation made in his post. All I have said is that he has just made an accusation against me which could apply equally well to himself -- which is what the saying about the pot and the kettle means; did he really not know that?. I really would like to know what is supposed to be 'ignorant childish abuse' about that? And I ask because, I say again, I am genuinely curious as to what anfractuous convolutions of thought can have led OW to that conclusion.

And my contention, that his 'tosser' is a far better exemplar of ignorant childish abuse than anything I have posted recently, still holds.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:47 PM

yes its not an elevated level of debate - could almost be the House of Commons in the Yahboo Years.

Never mind. Let not thy self be troubled....

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:06 PM

the House of Commons in the Yahboo Years.

Have there been any other sort?

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 07:46 PM

I always think of the Yahbooo years as the Kinnock ones. Kinnock always struck me as a thoroughly decent chap, who couldnt string two words together when sixteen or seventeen words could be squeezed into a sentence.

he achieved the impossible of making Thatcher look good. Thatcher herself was a very wooden speaker, but after Neil had done his bit - she seemed the model of adroit pithiness.

How did we ever arrive a having those two as the leaders of the government and opposition...? There really were so many more able, intelligent, and articulate people available on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:16 PM

yep, here we go again...

distracting and divisive petty ego fueled middle brow squabbles about fuck all that really matters
to most peoples difficult daily financial survival....

How the tory ruling class desperately depends on "Divide and Rule" to maintain a strangle hold on political & social power..............

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:46 AM

Aye, but punkfolkrocker, there is no such thing as Tory and no such thing as Labour. Each cling desperately to what they hope is the middle ground in order to be electable, whilst giving a nod to their fundamental "principles."

If either were given free rein for long enough, power corrupting and all that, the divide and rule would be a feature of Labour too. And guess what? You still wouldn't be on the successful side.

And neither would I.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:59 AM

wise words ian!

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:49 AM

Overheard in the opub last night. "I don't think she should be given a state funeral. I think the coffin should be hauled around every street in the land so that everybody can have the chance to spit on her".

I leaned forward and said to the man (whom I had never met before) "You have just got to be talking about Margaret Thatcher".

He said "That's the one."

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:04 AM

I wonder if the same amount of hatred would be expressed had Thatcher been mnale.
I feel the shadow of mysogyny in so many of the posts knocking her.
Tony Blair in some ways was worse, especially whem you consider the number of people who were killed in a US inspired war, based on a false premise. Which he sanctioned.
Yet he doesn't seem to attract a similar amount of opprobrium.
Are the left afraid to dis their own kind?

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:50 AM

John your comment reminds me of a time I was singing my song, The Day Delaneys Donkey had Sex with the Pope. And someone said, you wouldn't be singing that if the Pope was a Muslim.


Life is full of these imponderables.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps so. She had her faults and her virtues in her time in office - like most. But what are we to make of a normally intelligent regular poster on this forum, a stalwart of a fine period of the folk revival, who goes on & on around these threads about how his happiest memory is of seeing her on tv weeping as she left Downing Street after being backstabbed by her own? Or of an apparently in general not particularly abnormal person, whom you can hear practically creaming his underpants in unbridled joy as he writes of overhearing a drunken ranter in a pub fantasising about desecrating her corpse after she dies? Isn't all this, honest now, a bit pathetic?

"Where now Thatcher haters?" indeed. Good question. To which "Up their own unpleasant anuses" seems to me to be a possible answer.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM

Hardly surprising coming from you Michael, she probably didn't set out to destroy your job and living like she deliberately did to the miners, steelworkers and the Trade Union Movement in general.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:07 AM

Arthur Scargill destroyed mor miners jobs than Thatcher ever did. Sadly.
Was he perhaps a forerunner of TB?

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:13 PM

M. It isn't the least pathetic. It's you who are pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:32 PM

MtheGM. Just for the record, the man wasn't drunk, although I wonder what state of inebriation you're in when you post some of these messages.

Did you honestly think I was "creaming my underpants", as you so revoltingly put it? He held a point of view very similar to mine and which would be endorsed by the vast majority of people who suffered under Thatcher.

In any event, where, in my posting is there even the faintest suggestion that he was drunk or that I was in some of heightened state of sexual excitement?

Perhaps it is you who are the wanker?

And no, I don't think theres's anything mysoginistic about hating Thatcher. John McKenzie seems to have forgotten that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan and Michael Grosvenor Maybe were or are male.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:12 PM

Twat!

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan
Each with the blood of millions on their hands.

MtheGM is right that you people lose all rationality when her name is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:56 PM

Waxing all pholosophical. like wot I do in moments of weakness, I am struck by the similarity, to me, between the (old)IRA, and the Labour Party (sic).
In both cases while I am in sympathy with their aims, I totally disagree with their means of achieving them.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:10 PM

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan

they were foreigners....you expect that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:14 PM

Boadicea? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:20 PM

Better not be too roguish, Al, with the likes of some of these-here about. You'll find yourself in the Gulag along with Ivan Denisovich if you don't watch out.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:58 PM

Or safely ensconced within the straitjacket. What size do you take, M
?

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:21 PM

LoL, OW.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:33 AM

quite some time ago on this thread i explained that my hatred of thatcher was not just objective - i know that bliar (never a socialist -please stop this nonsense of calling him of the left or whatever) is in many ways worse - he betrayed the labour movement while she did what her side wanted. bliar's craven acceptance of george bush's iraq adventure was shameful and embarrassing for the uk. but she was embarrassing in a different way- there is something about her that got right under my skin - the superiority, the manifest ignorance, the loving of her own image -whipped up for her by a load of besotted tory-boy admen, her dismissal of anyone with a bit of brain or humanity as a useless 'wet' - i could (and occasionally do) go on. i don't think it is anything to do with her being a woman but maybe.....this hatred of mine is not entirely rational.
when she won the election against michael foot (who i rated as being intelligent, decent and humane) so decisively, i felt it said something very sad about our country. that his many qualities (and anyone with the capacity to consider more than one point of view (well...i might be for turning on that point, he mused.....))could be derided by a jeering mob of brain-dead, jingoistic bigots who seemed to be (and have remained) in a majority...

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:45 AM

Do you think of yourself as a democrat, Pete?

Well then...

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:52 AM

... and that is not a mere debating point. The trouble with you of the left is that you cannot reconcile yourselves to the fact that what you want is not what the vast majority of the people of this country want. So in your self-righteous frustration you turn aggressive and abusive and unmannerly. A minor example ~~ Owen's suggestion that I should be in a straitjacket because I won't accept the world-view which seems self-evident to him. Maybe he has left himself a backdoor of "Can't you take a joke?" to escape the accusation of disproportionate rudeness; maybe not. But my point holds.

I don't mean to be rude to you lot. I just wish you wouldn't be so perpetually self-righteously unpleasant.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM

...and the fact that to Pete we can be denounced, in all seriousness, as a chorus of brain-dead jingoistic bigots. Doesn't seem to me a phrase to give much confidence in the brain-aliveness of its perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:47 AM

i am accepting that i am not entirely rational on this subject. she affects me in a very negative way but i am quite confident that she had an equally strong - positive-effect on others that is also not entirely rational. she did have a way of exciting positive and negative emotions in many people. 'brain-dead, jingoistic bigots' - i would say is -maybe- a slight exaggeration of the way some folk reacted in the excitement of that time -and maybe some people have never calmed down.
democracy? of course. i just wish we could have a more reasonable choice, when the world is being destroyed by an aggressive, rampant capitalism we need to be able to have a way of changing this that is more meaningful than choosing between the identikit politicians we have now -operating on a very narrow political plane and all enthralled by the mythical benefits (beyond the 1%)of big business and perpetual growth. there is a class war raging and only one side fighting it - capitalism has not the slightest interest in democracy. we may cherish it, but it is a useless protection of what is left of our rights in the current climate. (this topic is about the uk -though i am well aware that the effects of global capitalism have been far worse, devastating- in many parts of the world)