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BS: Where now Thatcher haters?

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GUEST,petecockermouth 02 Sep 12 - 07:08 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 01:35 AM
GUEST,petecockermouth 03 Sep 12 - 04:06 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 04:18 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Sep 12 - 09:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 12 - 09:25 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 09:52 AM
Owen Woodson 03 Sep 12 - 10:56 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 03 Sep 12 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,petecockermouth 03 Sep 12 - 12:48 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 03 Sep 12 - 02:00 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Sep 12 - 02:42 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 02:49 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 05:08 PM
akenaton 03 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Sep 12 - 06:26 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 11:30 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Sep 12 - 11:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 12 - 02:56 AM
Stu 04 Sep 12 - 04:22 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 05:06 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,petecockermouth 04 Sep 12 - 05:56 AM
Stu 04 Sep 12 - 06:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Sep 12 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 12 - 07:08 AM
John MacKenzie 04 Sep 12 - 07:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 12 - 07:36 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 07:41 AM
Stu 04 Sep 12 - 07:44 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Sep 12 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 12 - 08:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Sep 12 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 12 - 08:11 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 08:12 AM
Stu 04 Sep 12 - 10:05 AM
Nigel Parsons 04 Sep 12 - 11:25 AM
Stu 04 Sep 12 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 04 Sep 12 - 12:06 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 04 Sep 12 - 12:43 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Sep 12 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 04 Sep 12 - 01:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Sep 12 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 04 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,petecockermouth 04 Sep 12 - 02:36 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:08 PM

thatcherism was never a majority choice - never mind your 'vast majority.' some things remain ever popular - NHS, tolerance, BBC decency and fairness- all routinely attacked by tories or opponents of what the americans call 'big government' and the rest of us regard as society. i've lived nearly all my adult life in scotland and the north of england -and never met half a dozen people who were seriously proposing that thatcherism was the way to go. of those who express an opinion -she is overwhelmingly loathed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 01:35 AM

No PM has been a 'majority choice' for years, Pete. Fact is, she won more elections on the trot, & stayed longer in office, than any other British PM of the C20. Anyhow, my 'vast majority' didn't refer to specific party support, but to more general left-right orientations. The things which eg Owen & JimC get their knickers in such a twist over because we won't all share their perceptions of whither we should be heading, was my point in using the phrase. Not a matter of party: fact remains that we didn't, & don't, most of us, want to be governed by the likes of Scargill & have our present Head of State replaced by an elected one who would still go on like the present Italian pres who can't keep his prick in his pants so how much better off would we be after all the upheaval? So the likes of Owen & Jim get all wounded & priggish about it and resort to rudeness & abuse: like your 'derision' from the 'jeering brain-dead mob'; which a pretty mild example of the sort of locutions you lot resort to for want of being able to convince the rest of us.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:06 AM

in assuming an alternative way of running things would be worse -scargill, berlsconi etc you seem to be advocating sticking with the status quo. there is no reason why-especially if all of us take a more active role in the democratic process -that things could not be improved. for example, following the mess of the reforms to our NHS -we could have doctors standing for election against that bill's main architects in our next election. often, people seem to assume that say a presidential system would inevitably lead to some finished politician like prescott, scargill or bliar in post -but it doesn't have to be that way. given a choice between that lot and say steven fry, jo brand or joanna lumley -who would get your vote?
there are many things wrong with the current system - the left will always seek to change them, the right to maintain -conserve- the system. even when it is 'conservatives' -(here and the usa) who are engaged in radical change -selling up and discarding all the things generations have fought for to make life a little better for ourselves.
i'd guess you relate to scargill in a similar way to my response to thatcher - but in reality, now, we should ignore them and deal with the damage that is currently being done against the wishes of up to 99% of the world's population. i am still waiting for anyone outside the 1% to say why they continue to support the system that works against their own interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:18 AM

We are rather at cross-purposes, Pete. I do not disagree with much you say.

But I have had no answer to my point that those on the left seem incapable of 'fighting their corner' without making an actual fight of it: they cannot discuss, ever, in a rational, mannerly fashion, but resort constantly to abuse, insult, obscenity, and general unpleasantness.

Socialism, I have always understood, to be based on a concept of love and respect for one's fellow-men. But it has always led in practice to aggressiveness, intolerance...; and where it has succeeded in winning power, to Stalin & Pol Pot style massacres of the opposition, Moscow Trials...

Alas!

Couldn't we make a start here with some of the Owens & Jims & Steves trying at least to be civil occasionally?

I won't hold my breath.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:06 AM

But, MtheGM, you serve the cause of those whose credo is self-interest (sorry, Mither, still the essence of capitalism, go back and do economics 101 again), who actively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich. In what way should you be exempt from abuse?

On another tack, Kinnock was an excellent public speaker.

"If Margaret Thatcher is re-elected as prime minister on Thursday, I warn you. I warn you that you will have pain – when healing and relief depend upon payment. I warn you that you will have ignorance – when talents are untended and wits are wasted, when learning is a privilege and not a right. I warn you that you will have poverty – when pensions slip and benefits are whittled away by a government that won't pay in an economy that can't pay. I warn you that you will be cold – when fuel charges are used as a tax system that the rich don't notice and the poor can't afford.
I warn you that you must not expect work – when many cannot spend, more will not be able to earn. When they don't earn, they don't spend. When they don't spend, work dies. I warn you not to go into the streets alone after dark or into the streets in large crowds of protest in the light. I warn you that you will be quiet – when the curfew of fear and the gibbet of unemployment make you obedient. I warn you that you will have defence of a sort – with a risk and at a price that passes all understanding. I warn you that you will be home-bound – when fares and transport bills kill leisure and lock you up. I warn you that you will borrow less – when credit, loans, mortgages and easy payments are refused to people on your melting income."


It says it all. It was right in every single respect, and Cameron continues the path (while pretending he does not).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:25 AM

. In what way should you be exempt from abuse?

We are a forum of folk with a common interest.
Almost friends.
Why can you not point out perceived faults, misunderstandings and false doctrines in others, or challenge such accusations against yourself, without the abuse?

If you had a good case there should be no problem.
(Or is that the problem?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:52 AM

Richard ~~ I should be exempt from abuse as a matter of courtesy ~ an attribute in which those of the left seem lamentably deficient. I can't follow your reasoning at all - do you really believe that anyone who differs from you politically should be subject to the kind of obloquy & insult so unhappily current in these parts?

I do not believe, if I actually met you or Owen or Jim or Steve as fellow guests on a social occasion and we found ourselves in some such disagreement on various issues as we do on this forum, that such terms would be exchanged as are common on here: out of respect to our hosts, if for no other reason. I fear it does Mudcat little credit that such usages are common herein. I admit I have been known to resort to such myself, in something of a Cet animal est très méchant reaction; such is induced by the predominant ambience: which just goes to reinforce my point.

"Civil words, Bill," Fagin requested of Bill Sikes. They were a pair of villains. But he was right that once.

So civil words, please. Less about 'tossers' & 'twats' and straitjackets, eh?

~M~

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:56 AM

And less about cunts and people creaming their underpants.

Honestly, can you believe this guy? He spreads pompous, arrogant, opinionated, irritating drivel all Mudcat, insults everyone who has the brass necked cheek to disagree with him, and intersperses all this with infuriatingly silly, childish baby-talk.

Then, when I react and give him some of his own back, he carries on like a big soft kid, even to the extent of attacking me on threads I haven't contributed to.

Not to worry. Just in case I ever meet him at this coven of witches, sorry, social gathering, I shall make sure I have can of insecticide with me.

You know the one. It says on the label "Kills Pests Stone Dead".


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:59 AM

See what I mean?

Many thanks for your co-operation, OW.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:48 AM

"I should be exempt from abuse as a matter of courtesy
~ an attribute in which those of the left seem lamentably deficient."


.. of course, us polite civilised moderate self-disciplined lefties
are only too aware that we are constantly surrounded & ambushed
by belligerent pig headed abusive arseholes from all ends and tangents
of our terminally dysfunctional political & cultural spectrum.....

[punkfolkrocker - Grammar school & Polytechnic educated son
of a mild mannered conciliatory & compliant factory trade union shop steward...

Poor Dad never suspected he was a Bosses'stooge and being played for a fool by management,
until the factory our council estate was built to serve and depend on
suddenly closed down to preserve stockholders wealth
and he and all his workmates were made redundant - circa 1983]


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:48 PM

(i wrote a long and detailed reply on here this morning and have just sent the last 6 hours wandering around loweswater and crummock - when i get back my message ain't here -d'oh!)

anyway, the gist of it was that socialism does not inevitably lead to rule by stalin and the rest of those guys. i think it's power corrupting that leads to the abuses produced by such dictators- no matter what they may claim their original motivation was. we have working examples of democratic socialism in the more progressive countries in northern europe (inc. scotland) and all democracies have some element of socialist thinking in their aims. also there is some hope in southern america where countries are increasingly rejecting the shock doctrine ultra-capitalist 'remedies' insisted upon by the usa, and trying to have a government that is more responsive to the needs of the ordinary citizen. my own personal favourite description of a desired socialist state is at the start of orwell's 'homage to catalonia' - but other than that and positives that have come from cuba- it does seem to be an elusive goal.

anyway, currently we are dealing with a rampant and ruthless capitalism that has no interest in democracy or a common humanity. the 1% wage class war on the rest of us and we roll over and take it. bad government is the fault of the people who let it happen - we are all too busy with the bread and circusses served up for our 'benefit' (like squabbling on the internet) to seriously challenge a system where a minority laugh at us poor sods, while handing each other huge amounts of unearned income. (again) -does anyone think that the current system is sensible or fair? why do we continue to vote for the interchangeable (in uk and usa at least) parties who offer us slightly modified more of the same?

mgm - re name calling etc. it is not just the left who do this -we are all equally guilty of getting over-heated at times. as a general rule, i would think that folk on the left should have more respect for each other. we know that capitalists like to divide and rule, to encourage fear and hatred of the other - but our (red!) standards should be higher than that.

and it is quite rare that we answer each others' points -it is quicker and easier to mock or insult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

I mean ~~ he wants me in a straitjacket. Stone dead...

And why? Doesn't like my politics. That's all he's got.

Well, I don't like his. But he can walk free, for my part, and continue living. Just hope it keeps fine for him, knowing all these things whose absence provoke him into such furies aren't going to happen. It's all a conspiracy by ... well, not quite sure who, apart from poor little me...

Richard came clean. Doesn't like my politics, so declared explicitly that that laid me open, without question, to all the abuse going -- just 6 posts back: scroll up.

Oh, they are a fragrant lot, aren't they? Scream & yell for freedom & equality ~~ for everyone who agrees with their fatuities. The rest of us deserve their abuse just for not agreeing with them.

I mean, dontcha love 'em! Aren't they just too priceless! Ought to be in some sort of museum.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:00 PM

might be an idea just to ignore any insults - surely the topic should be more interesting than pointless 'he started it' comments. if it is just about the insults then it looks as if we have no coherent answers for each others' points

and lets face it-most of us have a history of being less than courteous on many other threads here. indeed some of us go back to the old bbc 2 chat room days.

(what a bunch of idle, pathetic, childish moronic tossers we are!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:42 PM

Let's try that again. MtheGM, you serve the cause of those whose credo is self-interest, who actively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich.

You have earned the abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM

Abuse right back to you, Brige, you simplistic naïf booby.

So how much further are we? And who do you take the great Richard Bridge to be, to decide who deserves what? What are his qualifications for such august decision-making?

Booby. Droopy-drawers. Snotnose. Lollilegs.

Or, if you prefer, I consider your Weltnschauung to be jejune and unintelligent and unacceptable.

Under my hand and seal this -- day of -- 20--.

Your indisputable superior


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:49 PM

That is


Bridge



I beg your very pardon


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:08 PM

... & are you certain your name is Bridge & not O'Brien ~~ you would make an expemplary member of the Thought Police...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM

Capitalism makes us all Tories.
I've been a communist/Socialist all my life, but as I near the end I have come to understand that these are only labels......it is the system which is the real enemy, it turns us all into hypocrits.

I remember Mrs Thatchers masterstroke....the right to buy ones council house. I saw people who had cursed her as a political witch, fall over themselves to take advantage of the huge discounts, regardless of the damage it was to do to society.
Regardless of the time and effort given by the founding fathers of the Labour Party to ensure the poorest adequate housing.

I think Mthe GM is right, tho' he is quite capable of being nastily abusive himself....in saying that the Lefties here are more vicious in their language than the conservatives and I think the reason is that we know our message is flawed.
No one wants to sacrifice themselves in this system, our principles have been eroded, we are simply consumers....the bottom feeders of the Capitalist system....we are phoneys....angry, nasty phoneys who cling to our last bastion....equality, when we know only to well that equality and capitalism are completely incompatible.

But we can fix it!.......can't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:26 PM

I think you've been drinking, MtheGM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:30 PM

Interestingly, Richard Bridge aka O'Brien, I do not drink. I stopped drinking alcohol completely over 10 years ago because I suddenly realised that I have actually never liked it - and look at the money I save! Can't imagine what, among the justified animadversions I made against you, can have provoked such an accusation ~~ unless it be the calculated and deliberate childishness of some of the epithets I aimed in parody of your approach to supposed argument. Still, this is a barren exchange which I propose to pursue no further.

Regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:45 PM

Ake ~~ I admit that I do occasionally allow myself to be provoked into responding in kind to abuse: but, I hope, infrequently, and I always make a point of apologising after. My principle is to avoid the use of what is conventionally regarded as objectionable vocabulary ~~ the "strong language" which tv programme makers issue warnings about at the beginning of transmissions.

I apologise again for my occasional failures to conform to this principle of mine.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:56 AM

MtheGM, you serve the cause of those whose credo is self-interest, who actively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich.

Richard, that may be your view, but it is not that of MtheGM or others who are not of the Far Left.
"oppressing the workers" is not one of their aims, and they believe their path will lead to a better life for all.
They might be right.
Coal miners in the Soviet Union "workers paradise" had much worse conditions, longer hours and shorter lives than British ones.
Coal miners in Communist China are worse off still.

Explain why you disagree and hold the abuse.
You may think they deserve it, but it only makes you look incapable of supporting your case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 04:22 AM

"I have come to understand that these are only labels......it is the system which is the real enemy, it turns us all into hypocrits."

I agree ake. I'm not worried about MGM's name-calling, it betrays the vacuity of his arguments as it does with anyone else. We were having an interesting debate on the royal veto thread until the usual old bilge started about the 'lefties'. Yawn. It's tiresome, intended to goad and provoke a reaction and it's not surprising some respond rather, er, directly.

For what it's with, I think the absolutism that threatens UK politics is a real worry. The drift towards more free-market economics simply doesn't make sense when there is no evidence that it works; Blair et al took it to it's logical conclusion and we now know unregulated capitalism is utterly incapable of reigning in it's worst excesses and leads to inequality, environmental disaster and the creation of a politico-corporate elite that essentially run the country in their own interests.

A socially responsible form of capitalism is the only way forward, with the infrastructure, NHS and education being held for the nation by the state, and the free-market made to serve the interests of the country as well as generate profit for the shareholders.

Oh yes, and we need to start making things again. Soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:06 AM

Not much one can disagree with there, SF. But "Lefties" seems to me a useful term for those with certain views which are unquestionably towards what is is conventionally thought of as the left-wing of the political spectrum, resulting in predictable attitudes to matters under discussion --

"Lefty may refer to ...
an adherent of left-wing politics" (wikipedia)


: simply a useful term, with no necessarily intrinsic pejorative overtones, to summarise a certain mindset ~~ one which I make no secret of disagreeing with in general, but factual rather than hostile in use and intention.

If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:18 AM

Sorry; not sure how, but part of that last post vanished in transmission. Here it is in full ~~

Not much one can disagree with there, SF. But "Lefties" seems to me a useful term for those with certain views which are unquestionably towards what is is conventionally thought of as the left-wing of the political spectrum, resulting in predictable attitudes to matters under discussion --

"Lefty may refer to ...
an adherent of left-wing politics" (wikipedia)

Now, how can that be denounced as 'name-calling? Is it not simply a useful term, with no necessarily intrinsic pejorative overtones, to summarise a certain mindset? ~~ one which I make no secret of disagreeing with in general, but factual rather than hostile in use and intention.

If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:56 AM

soviet union was never a 'workers paradise' -this phrase was always used cynically by the dictatorship or sarcastically by the conservatives/capitalists.
in what sense is today's china 'communist?'
lets say, eg, a 'worker's paradise' is a state where we all have reasonably paid employment,a chance to make more without exploiting others, a fair tax system and a state prepared to ensure good education, health and social security. at least in theory, most sensible governments would aspire to this goal if they are working for the benefit of their citizens.
Here we have a low wage, high rent economy. there is rising unemployment, food and energy prices, homelessness, use of food banks etc. people hold on to poorly paid, unrewarding jobs for fear of worse. a large part of our young people have very few prospects -my own with 3 and a half degrees between them can't afford a driving lesson, never mind a deposit for a house -with only bar and retail jobs to be had.
yet this is the 5th richest economy in the world - with the lack of workers rights and general apathy of the people -this is the perfect condition for a capitalists' paradise.
in general terms the labels we put on systems or countries don't really mean much anymore (eg what does 'liberal' mean now-here and in he usa?) it's just free-market global capitalism backed by (awe inspiring) military might against the world. the old labour/tory -democrat/republican games do not mean anything much either - nor do the democratic wishes of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:54 AM

"If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?"

I'm sorry, I've just found out Jeremy Hunt is the new Health Secretary. I'm speechless, depressed and shocked. For crying out loud.

I need to lie down before I answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:02 AM

Never you mind MGM!

One day you'll be in Marks and Spencer and walk into the ladies changing rooms by mistake - and there will be Margaret - all blonde curls and French knickers!

Oh MGM! she'll say, you can handle my privatisations, and I know YOU won't be a wet...

Trust me! bound to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:08 AM

in what sense is today's china 'communist?

The Communist Party of China, also known as the Chinese Communist Party, is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China.

We have a housing crisis because no government has built enough for decades.
It is not a left/Right issue.
Immigration alone far outstrips the new provision.

Similar answers to your other points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:13 AM

I must admit, I find it hard to discover what socialists like. They are forever going on about what they don't like, and whom.
Two quotes to keep you posting.

"Socialism is the politics of envy"

"Socialism consists, not of raising everyone UP to the same level, but of dragging everybody DOWN to the same level"

;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:36 AM

How many workers flee S.Korea for the Marxist North?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:41 AM

And how many, 20+ years ago in the days of the Wall, fled West Berlin for East Berlin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:44 AM

"The Communist Party of China, also known as the Chinese Communist Party, is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China."

It's communist in name only, and we all know that. A totalitarian regime takes advantage of a workforce that's paid very poorly, have no workplace rights, are made itinerant so they can be relocated where needed without regard for the very fabric of society. What you have there is a workforce who are basically slaves, a resource for manufacturing and construction.

The thing is, to compete with these countries is it won't be socialists dragging down everyone to the same level as a Chinese worker, it'll be the political/corporate elite that runs the economy. Of course, they won't be included.

"If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?"

It's not the terms as such, but the inflammatory nature of them that to my mind fudges the issue by creating barriers instantly. I don't care if people are left or right, I care whether they are for us as a society or for themselves, whether they are fair or compassionate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM

Oh, come on, SFJ ~~ you made an inaccurate and hurtful and explicit accusation against me of 'name-calling'. When I point out that I was not calling any names [in the pejorative sense of using insulting vocatives], but just employing a succinct and accepted term as a recognised shorthand for a particular instantly recognisable complex of opinions, you immediately change tack and pretend you were just striving for some sort of MOR, non-'inflammatory', expression redolent of compassion and justice.

Well, it won't wash. Justify your offensive accusation or apologise, please.

Go on -- or, in the immortal words of the great progenitor of this thread, are you frit?

Cowardy Custard!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:04 AM

"ctively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich"

All fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:08 AM

whether they are for us as a society or for themselves, whether they are fair or compassionate.

?
Who here does that disqualify Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:10 AM

""I don't care if people are left or right, I care whether they are for us as a society or for themselves, whether they are fair or compassionate.""

Just so long as they're not Tory voters, eh!

Not even moderate Tories.

That's the impression that you and almost all of the left leaning UK Mudcatters give.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:11 AM

All fact.

No, it is not fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:12 AM

Do you think of yourself as a worker, Richard? Better stay out of my way, then, hadn't you ~~ or you won't half get oppressed. Why, every member of the working community of this village flees when they see me approach, for fear of my terrible oppressions.

Honestly, Richard, if I were as stupid as you I should keep quiet about it, not go on&on&on&on&on demonstrating the fact the way you do.

Best regards as ever

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 10:05 AM

"Just so long as they're not Tory voters, eh!"

Not true at all. I know many tory voters I would happily have a pint and a tune with. In that respect, I don't care in some ways. But you know, there's a reason for everything.

I was in the Young Conservatives once (co-opted onto the committee by Nick Robinson, now BBC political correspondent), and what I saw went against the grain for me personally. I didn't like the dismissal of huge swathes of the populace as sponging scum, the myopic adherence to nuclear weapons, an appalling sense of entitlement because of wealth and a wider sense of misanthropy that even included the dealings they had with each other. One of the final straws came when it turns out our local MP had set up a bank account into which local business were depositing cash outside of the party itself . . . 'backhanders' was the word on everyone's lips within the association. When challenged in a private meeting he went purple, spluttered and went ballistic - a real sight to see. He protested way too much. No surprise then when it turns out he was one of the many thieving MPs and stood down at the next election.

Eventually, in between the boozing sessions we invited a bloke from Shelter to a debate about social housing and after a feisty exchange during which he totally demolished the arguments of the sons of the local well-to-do. He then declared himself a committed socialist and he'd discuss any subject, an offer that was eagerly taken up. He then proceeded to give a good account of himself of an ever more hostile group, many of whom ended up doing no more than taking the piss and calling him a "leftie" etc etc rather than debating the points. I was impressed. At the same time I was doing an English Lit. O Level and our tutor (another socialist) recommended Pygmalion, which I loved and which demonstrated the problems of inequality and the class system had existed for many years and were still relevant.

I went to the rally in the 1983 election at Wembley where I heard Parkinson, Thatcher and Everett speak (Everett was the best by a country mile) amongst others. I patted Thatcher on the back (true). On the way home we stopped at Watford Gap services where a coach from the people's march for jobs was also halted on the trip north to home. YC's went out and stickered the bus the people were on with pro-tory propaganda, and proceeded to sneer and mock them when they pointed out the damage to the coach. A couple of ladies came on the bus to remonstrate with the yobs but they were shouted down in the most disrespectful manner. That was it. I was disgusted, shocked and decided I wanted no part of this any more, these were not my kind of people. I had heard the party great and good talk about their superior values and in the next breath dismiss people fighting for their jobs and communities as worthless hangers-on. This spurred on the boorish whelps that largely made up and typified the junior association. I then resigned on political grounds (possibly the only YC ever to have done so). I missed the access to beer and the debates, but that was about it.

Next issue: What I hate about the Labour Party (second in a series of three).

"Cowardy Custard!"

Bah! That's it. If you're going to be mean I'm not playing no more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:25 AM

Bah! That's it. If you're going to be mean I'm not playing no more.
The confusing use of double-negatives makes it difficult to extract the meaning from your comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:38 AM

It ain't not my fault you talk reet posh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:06 PM

blimey, reminds me of a set essay I had to write for my Ideology & Culture course at Poly 30 odd years ago..

"Knowledge is power, but condescending bourgeois conceits of superior grammar and vocabulary
are a tool of oppression - discuss"



... buggered if I can remember the question title word for word,
but that's near enough to bring back hazy memories of
occupying the student union bar and Girl's Hall of Residence in protest
about something or other Thatcher& her henchmen were getting up to
to piss off us lefty students....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM

See SFJ ~~ GUEST.pfr unselfconsciously uses the term 'lefty' of himself and his fellow-students as a succinct and accurate label; not a 'name-call'. You haven't replied to my indubitable and total demolition of you on this topic, except to take your ball and sneak off home in a sulk.

Cowardy Custard again --- in ♠♠♠ with brass-knobs on. + yah sucks-boo!

Likewise nyyyyAAAHHHHHH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:43 PM

ahh.. but.. MtheGM, there is a severe distinctionbetween "us" using the term 'lefty'
as a jocular self-deprecating ironic 'nickname';
and "them" using it as a dismissive term of abuse...

noting that other 'oppressed' groups similarly appropriate established terms of derision
as an act of militant empowerment...

eg, 'Cider Heads'....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:56 PM

Do you really think the lefties an oppressed minority, pfr? Seems to me that, on this forum at least, they are the oppressive majority and we of the somewhat further right [I wouldn't call myself a 'rightie' exactly ~~ more a sort of floating MOR-er when it comes to politics] the oppressed minority, constantly under self-righteous and priggish attack for having the effrontery to disagree with their arrogant pronouncements. See, e.g., Richard's explicit and barefaced assertion that I 'deserve' to be abused because I won't accept his grotesque premises; which makes me an 'oppressor of the poor' an 'underminer of the welfare state, 'a robber of the poor to give to the rich' [as if ~~ if I could contrive to rob anyone, I should keep it for myself, thanks very much!]. So go on being a lefty - which is not a name, merely an objective category-name which you have acknowledged - and I hope it keeps fine for you.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:16 PM

well.. ermmm.. let's put it this way...

whatever I was in my youth, and whatever I may be now as I approach my mid 50s;

the only certainty I confidently cling to is that I'll never vote Tory;
or ever again vote tactically for the Liberals.

So, it seems I'm stuck with whatever the Labour party has left to offer,
as I can't be arsed with any half baked fringe alternative hippy green parties..

However, if anyone starts up a left of centre "Cider, Electric Guitars and Nudey Mixed Sauna Party..???


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:51 PM

well the fact was your section of the country was a robber, Mike. The tory constituencies were 'taken care of' in the Thatcher years and the rest of the country went to hell in a hand cart.

Den's relations living in Suffolk used to say to us - recession, what recession. this in aperiod were nearly every coal mine was closed. When about five mikles of steel mils outside Sheffield shrunk to one factory.

She told you you could build an economy on real estate values and service industries and YOU lot voted for it.

I'm sorry you can't see the facts or attempt to seem them as they were for many people in England. But it was very hard not to feel bitter towards tory voterif you lived in the vortex of all that suffering.

I suppose we're going that shit now about - it was all the fault of wicked working class unions having beer and sandwiches at number 19 with Harold Wison. If you actually worked in industry - you know that was bollocks - the shit leadership and lack of investment buggered our industries. Very few working people did anything except work very hard for not much money.

All one class's fault - and we all know which party is for giving them tax breaks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM

interesting and thoughtful post SFJ -the one about falling out with the tory party- you are a better man than I. i was just reading in the paper about how, come next april, 90,000 disabled folk are due to have mobility scooters, cars repossessed following reductions in government disability allowance. this latest wheeze by the current lot is hardly a surprise though does seem unusually heartless, even by their standards. i'm afraid i am way beyond going out for a pint with an advocate or supporter of such things as this. i look at the prospects for my children in the current climate and won't forgive those who are responsible. I see folk buying the Mail or Telegraph and think 'Aren't you worried people will think like i do - you're a Tory bastard?'

in all other respects though -i am quite a happy chap.really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:36 PM

incidentally - see that picture of jeremy hunt on the bbc news website? would you ever get tired of punching that face? (in the unlikely event you got tired of punching michael gove and were looking for something else to do)

even mild mannered old peace and love hippies can have disturbingly enjoyable violent fantasies.


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