BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

"Both cases" meaning both Arab and Coalition policies?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 09:30 AM

Same sort of delusion, hysteria, and ignorance in both cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:48 AM

I've seen some non sequiturs around here over the years, but that one's a doozy. I'd even call it cryptic.

Please state your point, Greg. And what does it have to do with a declared Arab policy of 64 years' standing?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 08:47 AM

Some positive movement?

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas seems to be coming around, from Israel's point of view. In a TV interview in Israel Abbas says he supports many Israeli positions about control of the land. And the Jewish State's efforts to control terrorism.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23470/Default.aspx?ref=newsletter-20121104

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 02:57 PM

No nation has it as part of its declared official policy to destroy America utterly so that it will cease to exist....

Then why are we in Iraq & Afghanistan?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 01:25 PM

No nation has it as part of its declared official policy to destroy America utterly so that it will cease to exist, Stringsinger; which is precisely the policy towards Israel explicitly espoused by almost all the countries surrounding Israel. What your GOP might rhetorically declare is purely a matter of internal political rhetoric, and no more to do with the case than the flowers that bloom in the spring tra-la. Your comparison has no referent whatever in reality, and is merely a foolish & mal-à-propos rhetorical trope of your own.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

Over the years, Israel has renounced its secular views in the government. Too many rabbis have control as mullahs do in Islamic countries.

Ben Gurion was an atheist, for the most part.

Today, governmental officials are theocrats.

As to Israel's "right to exist", this is a canard by AIPAC propagandists.

This has never been a legitimate issue.

The question always remains, how is Israel's "right to exist" defined?
By the Likud? By the likes of Netanyahu?

You could make the same claim about America's "right to exist" by GOP radicals.
They keep talking about "taking the country back".

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 05:07 PM

A millimeter of conciliation from Abbas.

Otherwise, like I said.

And the response:

http://news.yahoo.com/israels-peres-welcomes-courageous-words-abbas-192602945.html

A millimeter from the other side.

Let's see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

From Al Jazeera:

"The leader of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has criticised the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas for comments he made to Israeli media, saying that they contradict long-held Palestinian territorial demands.

Abbas made the rare if symbolic concession to Israel on Thursday, saying he had no permanent claim on the town from which he was driven as a child during the 1948 war of the Jewish state's founding.

Ismail Haniyeh said on Friday that Abbas' remarks on the right of return for Palestinian refugees, aired on Israel's Channel 2, were "extremely dangerous".

In his comments, Abbas said: "Palestine now for me is [19]67 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital ... This is now and forever, this is Palestine for me.

I am a refugee but living in Ramallah. I believe that West Bank and Gaza is Palestine. The rest is Israel."

The president said that while he would like to see his birthplace - Safed, now a town in northern Israel - he does not want to live there.

"I want to see Safed. It is my right to see it but not to live there," he said.

Statehood

The remarks came ahead of a UN bid that would see Palestinians gain partial statehood recognition in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The comments appear to have been meant to mollify Israel that Palestinians did not lay claim to lands taken for Israel in 1948, nor seek to run them over demographically.

Palestinians hope the vote will force Israel to withdraw from its current positions to lines it held before the 1967 war or face international legal action.

Israel says negotiations alone will fix borders between it and any future Palestine.

But Abbas' comments backfired among some of his people as he touched on one of the most sensitive issues at the heart of Israel-Palestinian conflict: the fate of refugees who fled, or were forced to flee their homes, in the fighting surrounding Israel's creation in 1948.

They and their descendants now number more than five million.

'Never give up'

Gaza's Hamas movement, alongside many other Palestinians, said Abbas' remarks suggested millions of refugees and their descendants would not return to the places they fled in wars with Israel.

"It is not possible for any person, regardless of who he is, a person, a president, government, or authority, to give up on Palestinian land or to give up the right of return to our homes that we were forced out from," Haniyeh said.

Palestinians who spoke to AP Television on Friday also agreed that no refugee will give up on their homeland.

"Anyone who was forced out of his land in [19]48 will never give up his land," Hisham Farraj, who lives in the Al-Jalazon refugee camp, said.

The refugee issue has been a big obstacle in peace talks. Israel says their entry would be demographic suicide and expects refugees to be taken in by a future Palestinian state."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 05:27 PM

I will certainly concur with that last point, Jim: but Israel is a far more secular state than any of its Muslim neighbours, as you will freely admit if you will just overthink your entrenched position for a moment. Israel has had the misfortune of being coalition-dependent on its religious parties for most of its existence; but it has never rivalled in religiosity the likes of the charming Saudi with its Sharia law. When was a woman buried up to the neck in Israel & had her head smashed in by rocks because she shagged the wrong man? What Israeli rabbi has ever had the power of an Ayatollah? I say again, Jim: your bias on this particular matter is a disgrace to your intellect. And I suspect you are so shrill about it because you know in your heart that that is the case.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 03:33 PM

I certainly agree that there was armed opposition to the setting up of the State of Israel - lack of consultation of the British ex-colonials had much to do with that, but I don't recall reading of Palestinians throwing grenades into occupied houses to clear the way for the new settlements, within hearing range of the rapidly departing Brits.
No excuse of course - the killing of non-combatants (or attempting to starve them into submission) is, as far as I'm concerned, never justifiable.
Personally I have no love for any state dominated, or even influenced by religion - damn them all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 02:36 PM

"the Israeli track record from the setting up of the State"
.,,.,.
How about the track record of the new State's neighbours from that precise time, Jim ~~ the concerted attacks across every border by 5 hostile armies intent on "driving Israel into the sea"? -- a determination which ASFAIK has been subsequently repudiated by only one of them, Jordan; but remains official government policy of all the others, with the possible exception of Egypt, who keep blowing hot & cold over the question. I am tired of reminding you that I hold no brief for the state that has emerged from that period, which has been a grave disappointment to me after all my well-meant youthful efforts to bring it into being. But your insensitive and lopsided view of the matter remains a disgrace to your intellect, and to your much vaunted love for justice.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 02:07 PM

Delenda est Carthago, Beardie; Delenda est Carthago.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM

GregF,

Bobert may support your racist lies by his not holding you to the standards he holds sane people to, but perhaps you could go back to the home and let grownups discuss things.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 01:16 PM

"Say they have the right to exist and take it from there. The Palestinians have nothing to lose but their chains."
Why start there?
I suggest you take a look at the Israeli track record from the setting up of the State, and as I suggested - count the casualties, particularly the non-combatants
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 11:28 AM

Bobad has it right, but of course it isn't just the Iranians.

And Jim, it isn't a question of "taking sides." The Palestinian leadership has not uttered the words (uttered by 150 other nations) that Israel has the right to exist. If that has no effect, and Israel refuses to negotiate in good faith, it becomes a pariah. It's a simple step. Why not do it?

As for the minority of UN members who don't recognize Israel, they include some of the most theocratic, least democratic, most repressive governments on earth. Among them are Palestine's "friends," Arabs and Iranians, who will not lift a finger to facilitate negotiations, and who generally won't even utter the word "Israel." Those facts alone suggest to me which sources are more likely to be reliable and which are mostly propaganda.

As for Israel, being surrounded by *declared enemies* who keep promising to destroy you, one of whom is building an atom bomb that could do it (while also boasting that their own martyrdom is the best thing that could happen) isn't conducive to trust or friendship.

The picture you paint is one of oppression and intransigence by Israel. It urgently requires a remedy. OK, pull the rug out from under them.

Say they have the right to exist and take it from there. The Palestinians have nothing to lose but their chains.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:59 AM

"Unlike a change in Israeli policy, recognition of Israel's right to exist would seem to entail no risk to the decision-makers whatsoever."

Except that their sponsor, Iran, would not allow it unless they themselves change their policy toward Israel and this won't happen until there is a change of the current theocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:55 AM

You're playing the blame game - the situation in Palestine has been a case of six of one - half dozen of the other from the setting up of the State of Israel.
By 'the Palestinians' I assume you mean the various Palestinian leaders down the years - or do you, you don't make this clear.
In effect, your attitude appears to be that the whole of Palestine is to blame for the present situation.
Are you equally prepared to blame 'the whole of Israel' for the undeniable atrocities that have taken place - you've had the list?   
Blaming the whole population of one side or the other doesn't begin to approach a solution.
I suggest you look up the number of casualties in this conflict and also the number of civilians who have been killed, on both side, and compare them - that gives a clear picture of who is the most lethally aggressive.
A good start would be to lift the blockade and stop attempting to starve the Palestinian PEOPLE into submission - who knows, that might start winning a few hearts and minds.
"They've had 64 years to think it over"
Both sides have had the same amount of time to 'think it over' and neither have shown willing - stop taking sides, especially as we are talking about human rights abuses which border on war crimes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 10:02 AM

Somebody has to take the first step.

Since the Palestinians can do so, and it would clearly be to their great advantage politically, that's what they should do.

They've had 64 years to think it over, and they they still haven't. I don't understand why not. Had they recognized Israel's right to exist any time up to the 1967 war, the situation today would be radically different. (That is far short of full diplomatic recognition, by the way.)

Unlike a change in Israeli policy, recognition of Israel's right to exist would seem to entail no risk to the decision-makers whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 09:47 AM

"Wouldn't recognition of Israel's right to exist be the first step to improving things?"
Just as would be recognising the Palestinians right to live in peace without the blockade, evictions, massacres, military incursions, daily humiliation, the 'Berlin' type wall....
The politics of the situation has to be resolved, but this no way touches upon the human rights and crimes against humanity that is a commonplace nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 09:21 AM

Wouldn't recognition of Israel's right to exist be the first step to improving things?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 12 - 03:38 AM

"The idea that the Palestinians prefer rockets over feeding and caring for their children......"
This is a diversionary tactic by a defender of atrocities, to move the discussion away from the subject in hand - the taking and ill-treatment of hostages (in this case, the Palestinian people) - to Israeli expansionism.
Installing a blockade to deprive the people of Gaza of the essentials of life and livelihood and then calculating how far the hostage-takers can go before they threaten the lives of people (we are talking about human beings, men, women and children of all ages, most of them struggling to live already) is obscene and has echoes of recent history that should send shivers down the spines of anybody who is aware of that history.
I suggest that if Bruce wishes to discuss the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, then he opens a new thread - this is about human rights abuses.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:11 PM

Hey, Beardie, ya ever think of buying a parrott? African Grey's do a real good job with human speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:52 PM

The idea that the Palestinians prefer rockets over feeding and caring for their children is insulting and specious, to say the least.

Nothing that the Palestinians have done equal that of "Operation Cast Lead".

Rachel Corrie will become a martyr of history as she was murdered by an Israeli tractor for attempting to save Palestinian homes from being bulldozed.

Bibi is a theocrat and his donning of the traditional "kippah" is a good example of hypocrisy. This is not a man of peace but power and war.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:39 PM

"The people who randomly bombard them with rockets instead of feeding their own children"
If you are suggesting that the people who are suffering as a result of the blockade, the military incursions, the chemical weapons, the Shatila and Sabra massacres, et al are all responsible for "bombard them with rockets instead of feeding their own children", then we must assume that the whole of the Israeli population is responsible for the above named atrocities - is that what you are suggesting?
Personally, I couldn't give a toss for the political agendas of the various political groups, but I believe that to make any concessions to the Israelis as you are suggesting is to give in to human rights abusers who are waging war on civilians to the extent of committing war crimes.
War aimed at Palestinian civilians is not the same as war against Hamas and to suggest it is has been the excuse of every monster carrying out every atrocity in history.
You are defending crimes against humanity - nothing less.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:36 PM

BB in the 1920's the policy toward Palestinians was entirely different. It was cooperative and if you've ever heard of the business of exporting Joffa oranges, you would know this.

By the time '67 rolled around, Zionism had taken a different turn and has become a bully as of today. Systematically, the Palestinians over the years were exploited and then marginalized and finally oppressed.

There is no excuse for Israel to renounce its democracy and allow a theocracy (which is what it is now) to survive.

Hamas is more of a reaction to oppression than a viable theocratic organization. This nonsense about wanting to "wipe Israel off the map" is a propagandistic meme which Ahmadinijad never said. The intent was to criticize Zionism and that's the target,
not the nation of Israel.

There are those in Israel today who renounce the saber rattling of Netanyahu, Lieberman
and the other war mongers and have formed a peace coalition to protest this policy.
I refer you to organization Gush Shalom and Ari Avnery, an outspoken critic.

Remember BB, also in 1920, Israel was not yet a nation and wouldn't become one until 1948.

You can't have peace without the relinquishing of military solutions which Israel has been unwilling to do under Netanyahu and his cohorts.

Unfortunately, Mittsolini and Obama both are supporting him. Bad news for any peace process.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

Jim,


WHo is holding a whole civilian population hostage? The people who randomly bombard them with rockets instead of feeding their own children( according to you [re starving])?

Since I do not agree with your premise that Israel is starving anyone, I see no need to answer a meaningless question.

Now, WHY is there an insistence on the 1967 borders, rather than the last one that the ARABS accepted?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM

GregF,

The fact is that you are a lying racist.



YOU have stated that the statement

"is Black and a Democrat."

was the same thing to you as

"was a Dumb Ni--er"

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 02:11 PM

Ah jeez, Jim, don't confront B Bruce with logic or fact - he's always had a hard time dealing with them & in his current state - - - - who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

"Still waiting on the answers to my post of 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM ..."
Still waiting for an explanation as to why any of this has anything to do with holding a whole civilian population hostage and attempting to starve and humiliate them into submission.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 12:28 PM

By the way, the 1920's division of Mandate Palestine was the LAST set of borders that the Arabs agreed to. So it seems to me that any calls for going back to previous borders should use those, rather than the truce lines in effect in 1967 before the Arab attack on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 07:21 AM

Still waiting on the answers to my post of 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM ...

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM

"....the Palestinian leadership has enslaved itself to hatred, pride, jingoism, revenge fantasies, and fear of their most radical colleagues and citizens"
Tweak this list of accusations a little and all these can be levelled equally at Israel - none of which can be use as an excuse for the atrocities carried out against non combatants, including the one under discussion - holding the Palestinians hostage and attempting to force a settlement with humiliation and a blockade which has brought impoverishment up to the point of starvation.
The politics of the conflict can never be a reason for atrocities committed again civilians and the fact that these atrocities are carried out and have become common practice by Israel, makes it a terrorist state, not to be trusted.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 11:19 AM

Recognize Israel's right to exist, declare a new era and an open peace process, and an inextricable moral burden will be on Israel. It would have to negotiate or look to the U.S. and the world like a real enemy of peace and the Palestinians.

Seems obvious enough to me. Why wasn't it done long ago? What have the Palestinians to lose?

It hasn't been done because the Palestinian leadership has enslaved itself to hatred, pride, jingoism, revenge fantasies, and fear of their most radical colleagues and citizens.

Hamas has never given an indication of magnanimity to anybody. When Germany took back the Polish Corridor, motivated like Hamas by revenge and the elimination of a sovereign neighbor, it put Poles and Polish Jews into real, not pretend, starvation camps. Why should the Israelis expect better from Hamas?

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM

Stringsinger,

"The only way a peace process is possible is if Israel were a good actor and returned its borders to the way it was in 1967 and to stop the new housing."


Why not the borders as defined in the 1920's, when the Mandate Authority ( Great Brutain) decided that Jews and Arabs could not live together, and gave 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory to the Arabs, prohibiting all Jewish settlement there, and leaving the remaining 23% to be the Jewish Homeland (where Arabs were allowed to settle)?

Why is 1967 such a sacred date for the borders????????? Because that would put us back to when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem, and prohibited Jewish access to the holy sites? How does that compare with the situation SINCE 1967, where Arabs not only have access to their sites, but control access themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 12:27 PM

The slinging match is already a problem which could lead to a new world war.
Israeli government has overstepped its bounds and with the future persecution of the Palestinians, there will be world wide blowback.

As to the Keith and Jim show, this is a valid subject to be contested.
Naturally, I'm on Jim's side, here.

Again, a support for the BDS (boycott, disinvestment and sanctions) is in order.

One apartheid is one too many.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM

"You don't control this thread Jim, so wind your neck in and stop giving orders."
Am not giving orders; am trying to prevent you from doing what you are accusing me of doing - wrecking this thread with personal attacks.
You obviously are determined to turn this into a slanging match - I am doing nothing here - as CS has already pointed out, I hadn't even posted for four days when you decided to start this.
Maybe you should go back to bed and re-start your day later when you are in a better mood
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:00 AM

You don't control this thread Jim, so wind your neck in and stop giving orders.

You know damn well you and Keith have hashed, re-hashed and mashed this subject many times, so what makes you think this one will be any more productive than all the others closed, in the end, by mods?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 04:07 AM

My posts are calculated to reach anybody reading this thread, as are every other posters here.
You seem to be attempting to turn this into a shit-stirring exercise. If you have anything to say about what I have written - feel free...., otherwise, stop trying to nause up this thread with personal attacks.
I would point out that so far on this thread the only posts that are not relevant to the subject in hand are yours -
"Usual suspect number 1, and Israel's greatest fan, as usual, spoiling for a fight" -
and
"Your posts may not be directly to Keith, but they still are calculated to reach him, knowing how he will react."
Lay off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:42 PM

And your weak rationale, Jim, is disingenuous. Your posts may not be directly to Keith, but they still are calculated to reach him, knowing how he will react.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:38 PM

"Normally I might agree with you Don, but you picked an odd time to make that point for as you may observe, neither party has posted to this thread for three days ;)"

You may not have noticed CS, but I decided NOT to become involved in this, and I gave the reason, which has turned out exactly as I predicted.

My posting at this time is pure chance, as I only waded through the mire earlier today, and was more concerned with the sheer preponderance of their posts than with their having taken a weekend off. I'm sure they'll be in full flood again shortly.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 03:37 PM

"Is the Hamas mentality"
This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread - the attempts by the Israelis to all-but starve the Palestinians into submission with its blockade, which is aimed at the Palestinian people as a whole - described, rightly in my opinion, as an act of humanity aimed directly at non-combatants.
Whatever soldiers do to soldiers at the behest of politicians is a separate argument altogether; this is little short of using civilians as human shields.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 02:45 PM

The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews

"...the swallowing up of both the Israeli and Palestinian peace camps by political polarization has accelerated the closing of the progressive mind. And static fatalism has allowed the assailant of synagogue congregants and the killer of young children to fill the vacuum."

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 01:23 PM

"This must be about the fifth incarnation of "The Keith and Jim Show"
I think if you check, at no time have I posted directly to Keith on this thread - all my postings, other than those to MtheGM have been general ones aimed at nobody in particular.
Keith is, as you rightly point out, "Usual suspect number 1, and Israel's greatest fan, as usual, spoiling for a fight."
Unless I, and others who oppose the causes like people like Keith espouse (Muslims, Israel, Travellers et al) are allowed to post opposing views we might as well leave the forum to him.
I seem to remember you have been known to have something to say on his postings in the past.
Don't make problems where they don't exist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:42 AM

"This must be about the fifth incarnation of "The Keith and Jim Show", and it's all been said over aand over."

Normally I might agree with you Don, but you picked an odd time to make that point for as you may observe, neither party has posted to this thread for three days ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM

This must be about the fifth incarnation of "The Keith and Jim Show", and it's all been said over aand over.

Never mind talk the "Hind Leg off a Donkey". These two could easily talk the arse off an elephant.

And nothing will ever change the hard line, closed mind, attitude of either.

They are each exactly like those whose cause they espouse, because they will never stop fighting long enough to even think about a possible solution.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Oct 12 - 01:33 PM

Guest Lighter, the thing is that this is a grossly misinterpreted statement. I think what is being said is that the government of Israel has to change from oppressive means to a more humanitarian one.

Fortunately or unfortunately, Hamas was democratically elected and this is why Israel is punishing the Palestinians.

I'm not convinced that Hamas would treat Jews the same way. At the beginning of the Ottoman Empire, Jews were accepted, albeit taxed for their views but considered citizens.
Historically this has some precedence. They were more tolerant than was Christianity, historically, that persecuted Jews and destroyed their synagogues and temples by razing them and placing Christian churches on top of them. Evidence of this can be found in Budapest, Hungary.

The rise of Hamas is a reaction against the Israeli government's paranoia,one of the few countries that possess a large nuclear arsenal aside from the U.S. Being afraid of an armed Iran is part of that paranoia. Israel has the capacity to blow Iran hundreds if not thousands times over with their weaponry.

The rationale is that Hamas is lobbing rockets at Israel. The only way this could stop is that Israel could honor a legitimate peace process by eliminating its incursion into the establishment of settler's housing, displacing Palestinian land.

The only way a peace process is possible is if Israel were a good actor and returned its borders to the way it was in 1967 and to stop the new housing.

Netanyahu refuses to do this and thus putting Israel into perpetual conflict with the Palestinians, which he and other Israelis will not honor as a country but instead refers to them as "arabs".

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 07:45 PM

Inquiring minds want to know:

1. Is the Hamas mentality really the liberal democratic conscience of the world? If your answer is "yes," explain why you think so.

2. If it had its druthers, how would Hamas treat the Jews of a militarily "liberated Palestine"? If your answer is "fairly and considerately," explain why you think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM

Speaking of enlightenment this review of three books written by people who have observed human atrocities in the Middle East first hand paints a slightly different picture than that fed to it's useful idiots by Palestinian propagandists.

While Canadian leftists attempt to "break the siege" of Gaza there's a whole world of people out there fighting for freedom against the very likes of Hamas writes Terry Glavin

Read and reflect: On the front lines of a global struggle

Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 04:14 PM

You seem to be saying, String, that the U.S. government and news media are in the iron grip of Israel and its stooges. And the media and governments of other Western nations as well. How could this have this happened?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming personal enlightenment is no evidence.

Not to change the subject, but why is it that the Palestinians and their Arab and Islamic governmental partisans refuse even to grant that the nation of Israel has a right to exist? Particularly when over 150 members of the UN not only recognize Israel's legitimacy but carry on reciprocal diplomatic relations with it? Is there any other nation on earth whose declared enemies repeatedly urge its annihilation? (Which brings me back to the question of how much magnanimity any conquerors of Israel might be expected to show to the defeated.) Proclaiming that Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation would be a giant step toward resuming negotiations. Why won't the Palestinians and their friends take it?

Among the 150 sovereign nations that recognize Israel's existence are Russia, China, Vietnam, South Africa, Egypt, and Jordan. Have they all been brainwashed? Or are they in cynical collusion with the "Great Satan"?

Assertions of Israeli evil (not to mention genoicide) that emanate solely from pro-Palestinian sources require the kind of extraordinary independent confirmation that Carl Sagan was talking about.