Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:36 PM

Richie

The GMS version is printed here: Folkopedia - Charley's Escape (the last version on the page).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 13 - 05:02 PM

Hi,

I'm getty ready add versions of Geordie Child 209. Does anyone have access to or know where I can find a copy of "The Green Mountain Songster" published in 1823 by an old soldier from Sandgate? According to Coffin there's a version Geordie (Georgie) in it.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:05 PM

The FSNA version says, "Collected by John A. Lomax."

It's no secret that both Lomaxes (John especially) were occasionally sloppy - or creative - about texts, tunes, and sometimes even attributions. (Read, for example, G. Legman's contemporaneous review of FSNA in the Journal of American Folklore.)

Personally, I'm wary of all Lomax assertions about texts and tunes. The attribution to John may mean only that he collated this version from two or more originals. Maybe he used to sing it when Alan was a boy. Who knows?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:57 PM

I'll scan and email it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:18 PM

Richie,
The lines you quote from Mother Goose rhymes are a common place.
i.e., they occur in various forms and form the first 2 lines of different rhymes.

If you mean the one that continues 'and if she's not gone she lives there still, the ODNR gives the earliest ref as The Academy of Complements' 1714.

I have a copy of 'Cowboy songs' but it doesn't give sources for anything. Come to think of it, neither does FSoNA.

Have you not got a copy of FSoNA? They're 10 a penny on EBay.

The lyrics in FSoNA are very different to those in Cowboy Songs. Which do you want?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:06 AM

Hi,

If you look on my site here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/daddy-be-gay--nye-oh-1937-rec-john-lomax.aspx

It might help answer the questions from the earlier post. I know Alan Lomax "collected" a similar version titled "Old Man under the Hill." Anyone have the lyrics and source for that version (Folk Songs of North America)?

Curiously the cowboy song (Farmer's Curst) appearing in 1910? by John Lomax has the same title. What is J. Lomax's source for the cowboy song?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 01:14 AM

Hi,

I've done some looking at US versions titled "Daddy Be Gay" (Farmer's Curst Wife). What is the origin of these?

What is the earliest date of the Mother Goose rhyme "The Old Woman Under the Hill" ?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:53 PM

Oh, here's the link to listen to the recording:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-farmers-wife--hubbard-va-1939-halpert.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:41 PM

Hi,

Need some help transcribing one of the African-American versions, esp. sixth stanza and last stanza. The last harkens back to the Scottish text in Child (version B), [refer: Kittredge 1917 JOAFL]

She was seven year gaun, and seven year comin,
And she cried for the sowens she left in the pot.


THE FARMER'S WIFE- Sung by Joe Hubbard. Hamiltontown, near Wise, Va; Herbert Halpert, 1939.
(Listen: The Farmer's Wife)

I hooked up a hog and I went out to plough,
And how I got along I don't know how.

I seen Mr. Devil come slippin' through the field, says,
"One of your family I wish to steal."

"It's neither your daughter it's neither your son,
It's the old woman for the crimes she's done."

He picked up her up all on his back,
He looked like a pedlar with the pack on his back.

He took on to the forks in the road and he said,
"Old Woman, you're a terrible load."

He picked her up to feed it, and took on to the Devil's den,
And out run devils, nine or ten,

One little devil come climbing up the wall says,
"Take her back daddy she's a-gonna kill us all."

Seven years forward and seven years back,
He looked for the baccy she'd left in the cracks.

[Spoken: He musta had a terrible time wid her. . .]


Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:48 AM

Richie,
Obviously some confusion here.

The text you quote is very definitely a version of 'Marrowbones' not a Child Ballad, although it has just as good a pedigree as TFCW.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:21 PM

The Traditional Ballad Index lists Ironhead Baker's "Rich old Lady as a version of 'Farmer's Curst Wife." It's found in the DT. Is it?

Traditional Ballad Index:

RECORDINGS:
James "Iron Head" Baker, "The Rich Old Lady" (AFS 201 B1, 204 A1, 206 A1, all 1934); "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (AFS 617 A4, 1936)
Horton Barker, "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (on Barker01) {Bronson's #33}


THE RICH OLD LADY (From DT)

Once I knowed old lady
Round Tennessee did dwell
She had a lovin' husband
But she loved other mens as well

cho: Love my darlin' O
Love my darlin' O

"I'm goin' down to the doctor's shop
Just as straight as I can go.
See if I can't find sumpen 'round that place
That'll run my husband blind.

Anyone have Baker's "The Farmer's Curst Wife" (AFS 617 A4, 1936) text?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:48 PM

Hi,

I'm looking at no. 295 and wonder if there should be an appendix for the US versions, possibly "Sally and her True Love Billy." The traditional ballad index lumps them under "A Rich Irish Lady" which doesn't seem to be an early version.

Barry points out a melody from 1790 "Fair Sally."

Steve Gardham has done some research into this ballad pointing out that Child's B version is a compilation and not traditional.

Any other US versions?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 05:23 PM

I don't think there is anything to gain from comparing the refrain with TLL except perhaps it might have suggested linking the 2 fragments of verses due to the similarity in the chorus. I think there were several minstrel songs referring to 'Pompey' though the second verse certainly is close to the first verse of TTL. A major feature of the minstrel show as it developed in the second half of the 19thc was to include some very nonsensical but familiar verses with an easy repetitive chorus along with the usual instruments and wild antics. The Amhurst version is then quite typical of the genre.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:22 PM

I can't see anything earlier than 1868 for it. Btw, the words are posted here in the DT: LOWLANDS (minstrel show) (from the American College Songster).


The ballad index points out the refrain similarity to this songs:The Louisiana Lowlands of 1859, also referred to in Mudcat: 'Lowlands Away' - origins. (post by Charlie Noble)

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:52 PM

Here are the lyrics you mentioned from Carmina Collegensia: a complete collection of the songs of the American by Henry Randall Waite; 1868 ('Songs of Amhurst College' p. 101)

Same text without music: The American college songster: a collection of songs, glees, and melodies 1876

LOWLANDS

A boy he had an auger,
That bored two holes at once;
A boy he had an auger,   
That bored two holes at once;
And some were playing cards,   
And some were throwing dice,
The boy upset the tea-kettle
And drownded all the mice.

CHORUS.

As we sailed along the lowlands, lowlands, lowlands,      
As we sailed along the lowlands low.
And we buried him in the lowlands, lowlands, lowlands,      
And we buried him in the lowlands low.

Oh Pompey was the greatest man
That ever yet was born,
And Pompey was the greatest man   
That ever yet was born;
For he could play the banjo,   
And on the tambourine,
At rattling of the bones he was
The greatest ever seen.

Was the song documented on the stage? or part of a troupe?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:54 AM

Richie, Motherwell was probably confusing 285 and 286. He probably didn't have access to enough variants to make the distinction.

Thanks for starting the 4th thread. It makes it a lot easier to keep dropping in on.

The only American version I have at the moment is online at OpenLibrary.Org in 'Songs of Amhurst College' p101. It's obviously a minstrel version called 'Lowlands' with 2 verses and chorus. I could easily post it if you haven't got it. The second verse is most definitely a minstrel verse and nothing to do with 'Golden Vanity'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

Here's a link to the sheet music of the minstrel version I posted on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-286-the-sweet-trinity.aspx

The lyrics are in the DT already. I'm not aware that the song was used in minstrel shows- but it seems possible it did.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:41 PM

Here's Child's info from Motherwell on 286, whose version is C f:

C f. 'The Turkish Galley,' Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 392, and Note-Book, p. 50.

1   I spied a ship, and a ship was she,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
And she was called the Turkish Galley,
She was sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
She was sailing in the Lowlands low.

2   'Master, master, what wud ye gie me
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
Gin I wud sink yon Turkish galley?
She's sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
She's sailing in the Lowlands low.

3   'I'll gie you gold, I'll gie you fee,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
Gin ye wud sink yon Turkish galley,
That is sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
That is sailing in the Lowlands low.

4   He bent his breast, and awa swam he,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
Till he cam to yon Turkish galley,
That's sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
That's sailing in the Lowlands low.

5   He had an instrument, made for the use,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
He bored nine holes in her water-sluice,
Left her sinking in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
Left her sinking in the Lowlands low.

6   Some took their hats, and some took their caps,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
All for to stop her watery leaks.
She was sailing in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
She was sailing in the Lowlands low.

7   They took him up by their ship-side,
      Sing, Oh, the low and the Lowlands low
They sewed him in an auld cow's-hide,
Left him sinking in the Lowlands, low, low, low,
Left him sinking in the Lowlands low.

Motherwell sent this copy to C.K. Sharpe in a letter dated October 8, 1825, in which he says: I also send rather a curious song, which perchance you may have seen, entitled 'The Turkish Galley,' the air of which pleased me much. But as I learn there are two other different sets of the words more complete than my copy, and with different airs, I shall defer sending the musick till I can send also that which belongs to the other copies.

Subject: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:58 PM

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to Parts 1-3. I've started part 4 to continue and finish my study focusing on the US versions of the Child ballads. I hope to have all 305 balalds roughed in on my site in the next few days.

I'm on 286. The Sweet Trinity and have a few questions. I can't seem to find the US broadside versions. There's only one at American Memory- no date given. Anyone have link to others?

The "Minstrel/college version" dating back to at least 1868 is found in several college songbooks, one with music. Was this part of minstrel shows?

Finally just a question about a footnote in Minstrelsy: ancient and modern, with an historical intr. and notes, by William Motherwell

Footnote: In the "Two Noble Kinsmen," the Jailer's daughter sings part of a song beginning— "The George alowe came from the south," regarding which commentators are silent, though I suspect it is the same song as one that is still known in Scotland by the name of the "Turkish Galley," or the "Lowlands Low."

What does Motherwell mean here?

Richie