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Bronson tunes - Child Ballads

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GUEST,pinelady 08 Jul 01 - 02:49 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM
Malcolm Douglas 08 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM
Bill D 08 Jul 01 - 06:11 PM
Bill D 08 Jul 01 - 06:50 PM
Dulci46 08 Jul 01 - 11:15 PM
IvanB 09 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM
pavane 09 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM
Willie-O 09 Jul 01 - 07:39 AM
GeorgeH 09 Jul 01 - 07:45 AM
Malcolm Douglas 09 Jul 01 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Susan of DT 09 Jul 01 - 08:23 AM
pavane 09 Jul 01 - 08:39 AM
MMario 09 Jul 01 - 09:09 AM
Gypsy 09 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM
Abby Sale 09 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM
English Jon 10 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM
dick greenhaus 10 Jul 01 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,JohnB 10 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM
Bill D 10 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM
dick greenhaus 10 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,JohnB 11 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,blackmale@talk21.com 18 May 02 - 05:21 PM
GUEST 18 May 02 - 05:41 PM
Ebbie 18 May 02 - 06:38 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 May 02 - 09:54 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jun 02 - 02:04 AM
Sorcha 03 Jun 02 - 09:37 AM
MMario 04 Jun 02 - 09:07 AM
Mary in Kentucky 04 Jun 02 - 10:21 AM
GUEST 04 Jun 02 - 10:44 PM
Jon Bartlett 05 Jun 02 - 04:52 AM
Pied Piper 05 Jun 02 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Tom McKean 05 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM
dick greenhaus 05 Jun 02 - 03:31 PM
Desert Dancer 20 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM
Desert Dancer 20 Nov 02 - 02:35 PM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM
MMario 20 Nov 02 - 02:40 PM
Desert Dancer 20 Nov 02 - 02:58 PM
Desert Dancer 21 Nov 02 - 01:15 PM
cshurtz 03 Jun 07 - 12:39 AM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Jun 07 - 03:21 AM
GUEST,Magjam 15 Sep 07 - 12:01 PM
Bill D 15 Sep 07 - 01:24 PM
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Joe Offer 15 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM
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Subject: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,pinelady
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 02:49 PM

Hello friends,

I'm wondering if anyone happens to know what publisher now has the rights to the Bronson book of tunes to the Child ballads. Or, for that matter, to the Child ballads. I don't know why they have been allowed to stay out of print so long. It occurs to me that if enough folk song societies wrote to whoever that publisher is and told them how many members they have, how much they want the books reissued, and how much people are paying for used editions, and if they offered to do everything in their power to publicise the existence of a new edition - that maybe it would happen - ???

What do you think? Has anyone got info to contribute?

Susan


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM

I suspect that Princeton University Presss still has the rights to Bronson's vols.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM

Child's collection is out of copyright, but whether any publisher would be prepared to underwrite a re-issue is a difficult question; at the moment I should say probably not, given the relatively small demand likely and the costs involved.  As Guest points out, Bronson's collection would still be in copyright.  One-off paperback reprints of the first two volumes can be had from  Books On Demand  for $156.00 (vol.1) and $181.40 (vol.2), but that's probably the closest to republication -and the cheapest price- they are likely to get for the time being; again, costs are such that a new issue just isn't an economic proposition for an unsubsidised publisher.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:11 PM

(hello Susan *smile*)...

from OUR viewpoint, there is lots of demand for these volumes and hundreds of people would likely buy a copy immediately, but from a publisher viewpoint hundreds..even several thousand...would not justify it. I suspect that they are expecting the material to become 'available' on the WWW/internet before they could make a profit.

The easiest way to get it, and probably cheaper, is to borrow a set and xerox until you drop!..

(Yes, some of us are acquainted with several sets)


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:50 PM

(pinelady & I sort of share ownership of the abridged version of Bronson...whoever needs it borrows it back)


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Dulci46
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:15 PM

I am curious about the name of this book, I have never heard of it, but would like to know more about it. When was it first published, and are the songs in it written by someone with this name. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Judy


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: IvanB
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM

Dulci, Bertrand Harris Bronson's The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, Vols I-IV (New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1959), is a compilation of tunes to the ballads collected by Francis James Child. Since Child collected only texts for the ballads, many consider Bronson the essential source for the tunes to which they should be sung. As mentioned above, it's very rare, and the few copies that do turn up in used booksellers' collections (and EXTREMELY rarely does a complete set appear for sale) are quickly snatched up at high prices.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: pavane
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM

I imagine that even though the book may be in copyright, the tunes themselves may not be. An index to the ballads and tunes could perhaps be compiled, and the tunes found from other sources.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:39 AM

Don't know about Bronson, but there's no doubt that getting a new edition out of the original unabridged Child (how many volumes) would be massive and hugely expensive.

Like other interrested parties of modest means, I have a copy of the Helen Child Sargent/George Lyman Kittredge single-volume Cambridge Poets abridged edition. The copyright notice on it is: c 1904 and 1932 by George Lyman Kittredge. Doesn't that second copyright expire after 75 years? That would be...2007.

Now there's a niche publishing project...this edition has has all but 5 of the numbered Child ballads, typically 1-3 lyric variants of each, plus notes and glossary. And if it were published in Canada and sold a thousand copies, that would make it a Canadian best-seller! (certainly in the 'poetry' category).

W-O


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GeorgeH
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:45 AM

I seem to recall Child claimed (in his intro.?) that the tunes to the ballads were generally too well known to require publishing . . he did include some tunes (or tune fragments) of "rare and unusual" variants, but they only relate to a small fragment of the whole.

As far as I know the Dover paperback edition was the last full edition of Child to be published. Fortunately in the days when paperbacks used paper which would last more than 20 years . . .

George


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:21 AM

Certainly, as Pavane suggests, the tunes in Bronson could be re-compiled from the original sources; indeed, there is a lot of material accessible now that was not available to him.  If someone suitably knowledgable were able and willing to devote a decade or two of their life to it, maybe it could be done, though as with Child, much of the value of the work lies in the accompanying scholarship; however, the problem of publishing costs remains.  I should imagine that Princeton would happily re-publish if they were in a position to do so without incurring financial risk, but that doesn't seem to be on the cards as things stand.  As I said, the first two books can be bought as on-demand reprints, though not cheaply; they would not be cheap if fully republished, either.  The fact remains that very few people actually need to own the books, and many who do never use them; there are sets I know of which sit unopened in boxes from one year to another, galling though that may be.  Meanwhile, there are, fortunately, libraries, and, yes, photocopiers.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,Susan of DT
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:23 AM

There are a couple of projects underway to republish Child and Bronson on CD ROM. The person heading the Child project expects it to be ready in 2002.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: pavane
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:39 AM

I would have thought that many of the tunes and many of the texts are already available online. It just needs someone with the knowledge (and time!) to link and index them. Of course, there are so many variants of both that it would not be practicable to create a 'complete' index, even if such a thing were possible - it would have to allow for additions. But I wasn't actually envisaging repeating the whole of the research!


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:09 AM

I would suspect that between this site (due to the Digital Tradition) and the Contemplator site - are included most if not all of the web-published child's ballads and the tunes. It's a lesser percentage then one would think, but is increasing.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Gypsy
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:23 AM

Books on Demand is a great thing. After doing the search for Bronsons, finally had a copy made. Yes, it was dear, but the lowest price i could find used was in the neighbourhood of 500.00. And before i get hit with the stories of 50.00 copies, that tends to be anecdotal. Have never seen it, or Child, at that price. And i looked, really i did!


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Abby Sale
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM

Bill D: I did that. Thing is, I'd been craving the things since they were first announced. A few years later my wife bought me vol.s I & II as a present - a full $25.00 each, a fortune for a book then! Someone ripped then off though, & we've been saddened ever since. Finally we did get them all from Inter-library Loan and set off to Office Depot & did the whole thing. Made a special deal with the manager re the cost per page since it was so much. Took weeks and weeks but I am indeed pleased and use it regularly. Punched holes & put them in loose-leaf so if anyone needs a fax of a particular song, just ask.

Thing is, there's no place on the Web to get this as there might be 25 or 50 tunes for a song. Or just one. Last I heard, though, both President Taylor of Edinburgh and Dick Greenhaus were independently (I couldn't get them to cooperate on it) doing them all up in simple midi. That's all you'd need. They'd each done the major part of them last I heard from them.

As to Child, the full Dover 5-volume is easily available through all the online used book & auction places. About $200, I believe. But I strongly recommend getting the Sargent/Kittridge abbreviated version (copyright 1904 & 1932 - I think the 1932 has some important revisions) I bought mine new in 1959, recently published by Houghton Mifflin of Boston, no date. It has all but 5 songs, a good intro, all of Child's notes and an excellent glossary. It basically covers all the "A" versions, most of the B's and a few C's or D's. I checked recently and noone seemed to think it had any value & was generally available at $8 to $25 at auction. It has never left my desk since I bought it.

If you get any of these, be sure to get the right edition. There are several books that are similarly titled. (Both Bronson and Child published other stuff, obviously.)


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: English Jon
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM

Susan, do you know any more about the CD Rom project?

EJ


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:52 AM

The CD-ROM edition of Child is progressing. Expected? release is 2002.

THe Bronson portion of the project is progressing more slowly, due to lack of both time and funds. It's a major undertaking--some ballads have over 100 tunes listed by Bronson, and it's often unclear as to how the words fit the melody (or vice versa). Present plans are to publish (on CD) a photocopy of Bronson's transcriptions, and a click-to-play-or-view the same tune (or a simplified version, if necessary) with words displayed (synchronized with the music).


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM

Just an approximation will do, "Any idea what this is going to cost me Dick ?" JohnB


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM

Like I said, just the knowlege that someone would undertake this project with WWW and CD-ROM now available is enough to give a publisher pause. Wish I was 30 years younger.(sort of)


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 09:04 PM

JohnB- I'm not involved directly with the Child project(s), and I'd hate to hazard a guess as to what the finished work will cost. Depends on how many colleges, libraries and the like will buy it.

The Bronson one will likely be a single CD, selling for (very roughly) $35 to $65. It's a long way off, though.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

Put me down for the $35 version Dick ;) Thnks for the info, JohnB


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Subject: Bronson
From: GUEST,blackmale@talk21.com
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:21 PM

Hi, I have heard you are going to put out Bronson's: Traditional Tunes to the Child Ballads. Is this true? If so can I ever thank you enough. Yours in great excitement, Ray Black.


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Subject: RE: Bronson
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 02 - 05:41 PM

Who is you???


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Subject: RE: Bronson
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 May 02 - 06:38 PM

Guest, I enjoyed the twist on the grammar!


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Subject: RE: Bronson
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 May 02 - 09:54 PM

No concrete plans for a reissue just yet, so far as I can tell, but see these two earlier discussions for some relevant information:

New Edition of Child
Child Ballad site

Loomis House Press may perhaps be having informal discussions with Princeton University, who own the rights to Bronson's book; we shall have to see what happens. Meanwhile, there are always photocopiers..


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 02:04 AM

Transferred from the Help Forum.
-Joe Offer-


Subject: Bronson
From: morse.gagne@paigecomputer.com
Date: 02-Jun-02 - 07:20 AM

Hello Mudcat folks,

Do you know if Bertrand Bronson's tunes to the Child ballads are available on the web?

All the best-- --Rick Gagne, Bath, New Hampshire


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 09:37 AM

Not to the best of my knowledge. I have never found them.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 09:07 AM

in the Thread re: Child's I have listed those Bronson Tunes I have available.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:21 AM

I think MMario should spend his money on the Bronson volumes instead of the Mudcat auction! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:44 PM

I just got the Loomis Press edition of Child (Volume I) from Dick Greenhaus at Camsco. They've done a splendid job! Hope they hurry with the other four volumes!

Heritage Muse will have Volumes 1 and 10 of their digital version of Child ready to demonstrate at a big book dealer gathering at the end of the month. The remaining volumes should be ready by the end of the summer. I don't know what the price will be. They're working from the 1887 10 volume edition and will have OCR make it completely searchable. That'll be a help! They also plan to release a CD of sung examples to go along with it.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 04:52 AM

I wrote to Princeton UP a year ago and asked whether they planned to reprint etc. and never got an answer. My (complete) Bronson is the ring-bound type.

As to the "few" tunes published by Child in Vol V, I count 55, not a bad haul, and all from mss.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 08:22 AM

Not much I can add here except to say what a great work it is, and to say we have a copy in the Henry Watson library, Central reference library Manchester UK ( though it's not on the shelves; you have to ask for it. While I'm hear there's a photo copy of Oswalds "Caledonian Pocket Companion" (all 12 volumes) in Stockport library (again not on the shelves). All the best PP.


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Subject: FJ Child Reissue
From: GUEST,Tom McKean
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

Dear folks,

I've probably missed some one else's message saying this, but:

Loomis House Press is currently issuing a very nice looking New Edition of Child. What a nightmare. Glad someone else has done it! But don't look to those ol' texts, what about all the great field tapes currently being released? It's a good thing that Child and Bronson did their work when they did as there are far too many variants and versions out there now to do anything that could be considered nearly as authoritative.

Tom McKean


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 03:31 PM

Two extremely nice features of the Loomis House edition of Child are:

a: the tunes that are provided accompany the text, rather than being buried in an appendix in v. 5

AND

b: the tunes that were available to Child, but not included in his first edition, have been added.

volume I, the only one released as yet, sells for $25 in soft-cover (a quality binding job, much like the Dover edition) or $35 in hard cover. Yes, CAMSCO carries it.


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Subject: Digital Child, Bronson, etc.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM

A message from David Kleiman, of Heritage Muse, Inc., that was forwarded to Ballad-L on Nov. 18, 2002 (AFS is the October conference of the American Folklore Society):

"...the new web-site goes live this week. Since we announced all this at AFS here is the latest scoop.

1 - At AFS, at the NOMAD Festival, and elsewhere, I have been demoing the actual Child product (Heritage Collectors #1) to live audiences here in the northeast.

2 - Due to technical issues the target release date slipped. Those issues have been wonderfully resolved and we are working our proverbial rear-ends off to put the package in folks hands around Christmas (this year). It may be tight but if the manufacturer can move fast enough we can do it.

3 - Demos of some of the product features will be available on the web-site by end of this week.

4 - Heritage Collectors # 2, to follow Child, will be "Traditional American Folk Songs from the Anne & Frank Warner Collection". We're doing this in an expanded edition with 20+ new songs/ballads added onto the original. Same format aa the Child (digital, searchable text; computer playable tunes; new maps; an accompanying audio CD; etc.). SLated for release Spring/Summer 2003.

5. - Heritage Collectors # 3 - Bronson's full four volumes of the tunes for the Child Ballads. To be published in cooperation with Princeton University Press. Same treatment as above. Slated for Fall/Winter 2003.

6. - Heritage Collectors Other Projects - We have an agressive agenda for the Heritage Collectors Digital Folk Music Library and have already begun work on: "The Collected Works of Cecil Sharp", "The Abandoned Child", several previously unreleased, private collections and a two volume set of Maritime/Naval/Chantey collectors (British and American). Overall we're looking at 10-12 projects in the next 5-6 years. We'll have to see how the Child and subsequent projects go.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,

David M. Kleiman
President
Heritage Muse, Inc. and ESPB
Publishing, Ltd.
165 West End Avenue - Suite 12D
New York, NY 10023
212-724-7840 (office)
917-575-9633 (cell)
david.kleiman@heritagemuse.com
www.heritagemuse.com

The advantage of a digital edition of the original Child (aside from the extras they'll add), in comparison to the recent revised print edition, is that it's searchable and the page references will be consistent with earlier workers' citations.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Digital Child, Bronson, etc.
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:35 PM

Sorry, that link above that's supposed to be for e-mailing David Kleiman got turned into a web link. Copy the text as above or use the contact info on the Heritage Muse web site.

~ Becky N.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

To be fair to Loomis House, they also give the original page numbering in the margins, so references aren't hard to trace. Although searchability is a big plus, so is being able to leaf through a book and make serendipitous discoveries; it's "horses for courses", really.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:40 PM

both the CD and the remaining Loomis Volumes are on my wish list. I find that electronic and hard copy are useful for different things.


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:58 PM

Well, let it never be said that I personally prefer pixels to print... the piles of books overflowing the shelves around me attest to that! And I sure wouldn't want the Loomis House folks to lose their shirts and give up on it all.

That said, these digital editions sound pretty exciting to me!

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:15 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: cshurtz
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:39 AM

Does anyone have any updates on this post. Have the Bronson books been digitalized by anyone?


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Subject: RE: Bronson's tunes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:21 AM

Not legally, so far. The (legitimate) 'Heritage Muse' project is already several years behind schedule (their website doesn't seem to have been updated since September 2003, either) and, on previous showing, if and when it does eventually appear it will be unwieldy in construction and 'copy protected' to the extent that half the people who buy it won't be able to run it anyway.

It's a great pity that the project was not put in the hands of an outfit competent to handle it. Perhaps nobody else wanted the job. Meanwhile, if you don't fancy growing old and grey waiting, I would suggest that you locate the nearest library that has a set, and make your own arrangements.
    Threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Magjam
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 12:01 PM

Hi
Does anyone know of anywhere I can get Bronsons tunes as midi, abc, nwc or anysuch yet. Heritage are useless even though they're advertising. Is there anything else online apart from Contemplator and Mudcat?


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 01:24 PM

You need to be more specific about why Mudcat & Contemplator are not sufficient. Most sites who have midis got them from one of those sites.

What are you trying to do...just 'collect them all' or learn some songs? There are various ways to get what tunes are available...and not all of the ballads HAVE extant tunes.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 01:26 PM

Is it specifically Bronson tunes you want? There are variants not from Bronson.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM

Hmmm. By "Heritage," I suppose you mean Heritage Muse, which put out a digital version of the Child Ballads with some tunes.
There has been discussion of a MIDI transcription of Bertrand Harris Bronson's four-volume The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, but it hasn't been done yet.
Some of us have Bronson or the one-volume condensation of Bronson's work. Many of us would be happy to transcribe a tune or two on request, but not the whole work.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 07:27 PM

I currently have a set of Child - which when I get back from holiday, will go on sale on ebay and then if not sold to a book auction.

If anyone is well enough off to want a copy - published 1882 - 1898 limited edition of 1,000 and in good condition - PM me.

It falls into the category of "If you ask the price you can't afford it"- but to mudcatters - around £1200.00 delivered UK.

I have sold 5 (five) sets of Bronson over the past year or so and each purchaser has been delighted (I think!!)

It sells for around £750 - £900.00 depending upon condition.

And before anyone mentions it - every single copy of Bronson I have sold has gone to a person I personally know will make good use of it.

I have never come across a purchaser in this area of expensive books who is not a musician or a singer.

Despite what people say - there is a minute market of people who hoard books for investment purposes - and speaking as a specialist book dealer I have never met anyone who does that with books about folk music. J.K. Rowling yes, Bertrand H. Bronson - no.


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 10:57 PM

"a set of Child "...just what is this? Is this the set from "The British Poets" series that was published in 8 books? (I have a set of '8 volumes in 4' from about that period.

There was the large, unedited set, then the final winnowed down to the 300 'official' ones.

(I hope I said that somewhere near clearly)


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Subject: RE: Bronson tunes - Child Ballads
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 07 - 11:04 PM

This, I believe, is what I have in 4 leatherbound volumes


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