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Child Ballad site

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MMario 22 Feb 02 - 01:29 PM
Kernow John 22 Feb 02 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,JJ 22 Feb 02 - 01:42 PM
masato sakurai 22 Feb 02 - 02:07 PM
DMcG 22 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Russ 22 Feb 02 - 02:26 PM
MMario 22 Feb 02 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,JJ 22 Feb 02 - 03:38 PM
MMario 22 Feb 02 - 03:57 PM
Jon Bartlett 22 Feb 02 - 04:12 PM
GUEST 22 Feb 02 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,JJ 22 Feb 02 - 05:48 PM
Art Thieme 22 Feb 02 - 07:14 PM
Bill D 22 Feb 02 - 08:25 PM
MMario 22 Feb 02 - 09:04 PM
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DMcG 23 Feb 02 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,JJ 23 Feb 02 - 09:58 AM
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Subject: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:29 PM

I haven't seen this before

THE CHILD BALLADS


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Kernow John
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for flagging this up MMario
KJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:42 PM

Thanks for that Mmario.

Great resource. Shame that's all on one (very) long page though.

The page is 3.5 Mb! A big issue for those with slow connections

JJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:07 PM

MMario, thanks a lot for the link! I downloaded at once.
~Masato


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM

Yes, one big file is a pain for downloading - but not as much as 300-odd separate files!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:26 PM

MMario,
Thanks for the tip. Great site. I have a set of the Dover reprints. I bought them so long ago they only cost $2.75 per volume.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:33 PM

Now if someone would just post Bronson....


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:38 PM

MMario,

What exactly do you mean, when you wish that someone would just post Bronson...?

I have access, via my library to 3 volumes of Bronson.

I know how to turn notes into midi, and would be happy to start doing so, if I could see that as being part of a bigger project.

JJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:57 PM

uhm....do you really mean that? I have access to the condensed one volume edition. I've been working on it a little at a time, but am only up to page 59. (I think that's through # 13) I have been copying the lyrics to text files and setting one verse to the tune. Using Noteworthy Composer. (Nwc files can be read by a noteworthy reader addin for your browser - and NWC can be converted to midi or abc)

I've been toying with the idea of posting it on the web -but since I don't have any server space myself haven't done much.

I also am willing to contribute to a larger project - but don't want to coordinate it.

Any ambitious people out there with lots of time?

Meanwhile - JJ, have you seen the list of missing tunes from the DT? Some of them I am sure are in the complete Bronson.

someone stop me before I scare JJ off


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:12 PM

Thanks to all involved here, a real labour of love!

Jon Bartlett Vancouver Ballad Group


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 05:44 PM

MMario,

You've not put me off.

I'll go to the library next week, photocopy a few pages of Bronson and send you the results.

Say, I start at #50 so as not to replicate your work?

JJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 05:48 PM

...I'm happy to do MIDI transcriptions, but fitting the lyrics to the tunes will have to be done by somebody else.

Sorry

JJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:14 PM

Thank you.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:25 PM

if this happens, we are all gonna wish we'd bought stock in paper & CD manufacturers.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:04 PM

Sound good to me JJ.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:39 PM

This is what I have transcribed so far:

From
THE SINGING TRADITION OF CHILD'S TRADITIONAL BALLADS
Bronson - 1976

1.1 A Riddle Wisely Expounded
1.3 There was a Lady in the West
1.4 The Three Sister
1.5 The devil's Nine Questions

2.1 The Laird of Elfin
2.3 Redio-Tedio
2.6 Scarborough fair
2.15 The Tasks
2.22 Whittingham Fair
2.23 Strawberry Lane
2.31 The Sea side or The Elfin Knight
2.35 The Lover's Tasks
2.53 An Acre of Land

3.1 The False Knight
3.1a The False Knight and the Wee Boy
3.5 The False Knight upon the Road
3.7 The false Knight upon the road
3.8 The False Knight upon the Road

4.28a The Outlandish Knight
4.30 The Outlandish Knight
4.40 The Outlandish Knight
4.56 The Outlandish Knight
4.61 Pretty Polly
4.67 Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight
4.81 un-named
4.83 May Colvin
4.95 The Knight and the Chief's Daughter
4.98 Pretty Polly
4.101 Pretty Polly
4.106 Laddy Isabel and the Elf Knight
4.124 The King's Seven Daughters
4.127 Six King's Daughters
4.130 The Outlandish Knight
4.135 Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight

5.1 Chil' Brenton
5.2 Lord Bengwill or, Lord Bingwell
5.3 Aye the Birks a-bowing or Lord Dingwall

7.1b The Brave Earl Brand and the King of England's Daughter
7.3 The Douglas Tragedy
7.11 Earl Brand
7.23 Earl Brand
7.25 Lord Douglas
7.37 Sweet William and Fair Ellen

9.1 The Heiress of Northumberland
9.4 The Flower o' Northumberland
9.5 The Flower of Northumberland
9.6 The Flower of Northumberland

10.7 Binnorie or The Cruel Sister
10.13.2 The Two Sisters
10.28 The Two Sisters
10.35 The Two Sisters
10.42 The Two Sisters
10.49 There was a Squire of High Degree
10.50 The Two Sisters
10.53 The Two Sisters
10.55 The Two Sisters
10.61 The barkshire Tragedy
10.67 The Two Sisters
10.79 The Cruel Sister
10.81 There lived twa Sisters
10.83 The Swan Swims so Bonny, O

11.1 There waur three Ladies in a Ha'
11.4 The Cruel Brother
11.6 The Three Maids
11.9 Flowers of the Valley

12.1 Lord Ronald my son
12.8 Lorendo
12.14 Lord Randal
12.24 Lord Ronald
12.31 Lord Ronald
12.33 Lord Ronald, my son
12.35.1 Lord Ranald
12.35.2 Lord Randal
12.43 Lord Ronald
12.43.2 Lord Donald
12.48 Lord Randal
12.53 Lord Randal
12.60 Where were you all the day, my own pretty boy
12.72 Lord Ronald my Son
12.84 Lord Rendal
12.90 Lord Rendal
12.94 Henry, my son
12.97 King Henry, my Son
12.98 Willie Doo
12.99 The wee little crodin'doo

12.ap.2 My Boy Tommy,O
12.ap.6 Billy Boy
12.ap.15 My boy Willy
12.ap.20 Billy Boy

13.2 Edward
13.3.2 Son David

I have a few others where I've done the text but not tune


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:09 AM

plus:

13.8 Edward
13.11 Edward
13.22 Edward

14.1 The Duke of PErth;s Three Daughters
14.3 The bonny Banks of Virgie-O
14.7 The Banks of Fordie
14.7.1 The Banks of Airdrie

wow ! I'm up to page 64! only 455 pages to go in this book. Have the text and NWC files up to there- can supply midi or abc or songwright.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 09:42 AM

Re the orignal Child HTML page. Has anyone figured out what the C\, \R, \r, \N \e characters should be?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 09:58 AM

I think these are just cases of the scanner not fully recognising the the text.

Both /R and /r should be "I'll" for example

JJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:47 AM

The text was extracted from Cathy Lynn Preston's  A "Working" KWIC Concordance to Francis James Child's The English and Scottish Popular Ballads,  and errors such as the above are probably due to the (apparantly inconsistent) way the original database was formatted.  Unfortunately, sources are not given, so the texts are of more limited use, as things stand, than they could be.

Meanwhile, the Loomis House reissue of E&SPB is now priced at $24.95 paper and $34.95 cloth for each volume (very much cheaper than the prices typically asked for the 1960s Dover paperback edition); vol.1 should be out soon.  Information


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: masato sakurai
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 11:59 AM

According to THIS NOTICE, Concordance to the Child Ballads by Cathy Lynn Preston will be published in April, but a local bookstore (in Japan) says the publication is cancelled. Does anyone have more info?

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Susan of DT
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:10 PM

(dick greenhaus here)

Just to keep things straight. THe original Child collection is in the public domain; the Dover edition isn't (at least Dover's intro and editing aren't.) Bronson is not; it's owned by Princeton University Press.

I've been working sporadically with the idea of an electronic edition of Bronson. The problem isn't just transcribing the music---hell, that could be photocopied. Fitting the words to the music is a major problem, and is the one that's been slowing me down. Unfortunately, IMO at least, it's an essential part of the job (I have a few hundred processed so far). I'm also in touch with Princeton to investigate publishing rights.

Ideally, his project would be cross-referenced with an electronic edition of Child, but that's asking a hell of a lot.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:24 PM

Thanks for the info Dick,

Not much point in my starting to transcribe Bronson's tunes then?

JJ


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: Bearheart
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 01:33 AM

This is amazing. Very wonderful that y'all are doing this.

Thanks!!!

Bekki


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:22 PM

Yes. Malcom, special thinks for the link. I'll be ordering the book when it comes out.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:53 PM

Thank you Dick!

When the "process" of words to music is mastered, will it be copyright or public domain???? And where will it be posted?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 11:04 PM

To: JJ

Stick around, I believe something "BIG" may be in the offing.

When the Digital Tradition first appeared it was "at the cutting edge." Because of its "folk" base, it has survived where others have been crushed by the profiteering cartels, who, seeking to squish the last essence of profit from the "public domain" have brought suit against suit against the egalitarian masses.

In my opinion, dick and susan, were renegades, and some of the first to "homestead" the "digital frontier" continueing in the original traditions of Intellectual Freedom! which was premise of the FTP days of the internet.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:42 AM

The tunes and words are, in the main, public domain. THe editing and notes aren't. It's hard to be sure what's PD< since there are as I recall, 14 copyrights on Barbara Allen and several on Greensleeves.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: radriano
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 11:38 AM

Yes, thanks for this link, MMario!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: GUEST,Giac, not at home
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:13 PM

Thanks MMario!

And, thanks, Dick, for your strenuous and dedicated efforts.

Haven't been online for a couple of weeks, and what a wonderful surprise for my brief visit.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:34 PM

have added:

16.1 The Broom Blooms Bonie

17.2 The Beggar Man
17.4 The Old Beggar Man
17.4.1 The Old Beggarman
17.21 The Beggerman
17.22 Hind Horn
17.23 Hind Horn

18.1 Isaac-a-Bell and Hugh the Graeme
18.2 Wild Boar


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site:
From: MMario
Date: 22 May 02 - 09:23 PM

have since added:

Bronson 18.2 Wild Boar
Bronson 18.3 Sir Eglamore
Bronson 18.4 Sir Lionel
Bronson 18.5 Brangywell
Bronson 18.10 Old Bang 'em

Bronson 19.1 King Orfeo
Bronson 19.2 King Orfeo

Bronson 20.1 Fine Flowers in the Valley
Bronson 20.4 The Cruel Mother
Bronson 20.5 The Rose o' Malindie O


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 24 May 02 - 10:44 PM

Have Added:

20.6 Down by the Greewood Side

20.15 The Minister of New York's Daughter

skipped 20.19.1 (This one is waybeyond my capabilities!)

20.20 The Cruel Mother

20.22 There was a Lady lived in York

20.24 The Cruel Mother

20.31 The Cruel Mother

20.45 The Cruel Mother

20.47 The Cruel Mother (DT cruelmo4)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 24 May 02 - 10:49 PM

For the ones I've listed (will list)I can provide ABC files, NWC files, midi files, and the text of lyrics. With a little effort could provide miditxt or songwright files.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 25 May 02 - 10:19 PM

21.1 The Well Below the Valley

21.2 The Well Below the Valley - this one was a stinker! 48 changes in 16 verses!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 02 - 04:13 AM

MMario: You said For the ones I've listed (will list)I can provide ABC files, NWC files, midi files, and the text of lyrics.

How do we get to these? I'm sure you don't want to email them to everyone separately.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 26 May 02 - 08:10 AM

At the moment, yes, that's what I'm doing. on request.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 10:34 PM

Completed recently:

Bronson 24.2 Banks of Green Willow
Bronson 24.16 Banks of Green Willow
Bronson 24.17 Banks of Green Willow

Bronson 25.2 Among the Blue flowers and the Yellow
Bronson 25.4 Willie's Lyke-wake

Bronson 26.1 The Three Ravens
Bronson 26.2 The Three Ravens
Bronson 26.3 The Three Ravens
Bronson 26.7 The Three Ravens
Bronson 26.8 The twa Corbies
Bronson 26.9 The Twa Corbies
Bronson 26.11 The Three Ravens

I'm done up to page 93 of 519 about 18%


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:43 PM

Anyone interested in Child Ballads who has not already checked out Contemplators "Child Ballad" site will find the following site interesting. Midi files are played whenever you select a tune. The site is:

http://www.contemplator.com/child/index.html

Cap't Bob


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:19 PM

Transcribed recently:

Bronson 32 – King Henry

Bronson 34 – Kempion

Bronson 37.1 - True Thomas; or, Thomas the Rhymer
Bronson 37.2 - Thomas the Rhymer

Bronson 39.2 – Tam Lin
Bronson 39.2.1 – Tam Lin
Bronson 39.3.1 – Tam Lin

Bronson 40 – The Queen of Elfan's Nourice



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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 09:53 PM

I was able to get some more done this weekend...

Bronson 41.1 Young Akin
Bronson 41.2 Hind Etin

Bronson 42 Clark Colven

Bronson 43.3 Lord John
Bronson 43.4 Broomfield Waqer
Bronson 43.10.1 The Squire in the North Contree
Bronson 43.13 Leatherum thee thou and a'


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 01:16 AM

Be warned. 43.13 is not a version of Broomfield Hill, but of Jock Sheep. It was mis-ascribed in Keith/Duncan Last Leaves, and Bronson (not having the full text) took it on trust, though he was puzzled by it. The error is corrected in the Greig-Duncan collection, and I've mentioned it in one of the "missing tune" threads; also, I think, in another thread which Toadfrog started under the (understandable, in the circumstances) misapprehension that the strange refrain might represent some sort of magical formula. Ewan MacColl magically "recovered" a set from one of his relations, and (surprise) made exactly the same mistake initiated by Keith. Hmmm...


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 02:22 AM

Malcolm, may I ask you if there is any site or paper or ? which deals with the reliability/unreliability of "informants"? I know that JJ Niles is not highly regarded in this area, and I have heard an occasional mention of Ewan as fortuitously providing a tune or three. Is Anna Brown regarded as reliable? (the tunes in Bronson seem a trifle odd and she is the sole informant for several ballads). And are there others in this situation? Your guidance would be welcomed!

Jon Bartlett Vancouver Ballad Group


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 08:26 AM

Thanks Malcolm - I will append that to the text I have on 43.13


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 10:48 AM

So far as Anna Brown is concerned, two very helpful studies are Bronson's paper Mrs. Brown and the Ballad (California Folklore Quarterly, vol.III, no.3, 1944; reprinted in The Ballad as Song, 1969) and David Buchan's The Ballad and the Folk (1972); in particular part 2, The Oral Tradition: The Ballads. Buchan sees her as primarily an example of the pre-literate oral-formulaic tradition, though living on the cusp of the transition from oral to literate tradition. In some instances the tunes were probably just written down inaccurately; her nephew Bob, who noted them, was very young and, as she said, "a mere novice in musick".

Of other older collector/editors, Peter Buchan, for example, has been pretty much trashed over the years (for an example, Holger Nygard, Heer Halewijn, 1958, pp. 297-316); though David Buchan (op.cit.) goes a good way toward rehabilitating him. As you'll know, the majority of collectors and editors of that period seem not to have been above doctoring texts and tunes, to widely-varying degrees and for a whole range of motives, and quite a lot of work has been done on them, not least by Child, of course (Scott seems to have regretted his early excesses in that respect, which evidently impressed Motherwell, for one).

The early 20th century collector/editors have in the main, thank goodness, left us their MS collections so that we can get back reasonably well to the form the material was in when they found it; Martin Graebe, for example, is working on Sabine Baring Gould's corpus. That isn't possible, yet, with some of their successors.

One problem with more recent examples like Niles, MacColl and Lloyd, is that they were all impressive characters -giants, in their way- who aroused quite strong feelings. Niles has fallen from grace pretty comprehensively, to the extent where many feel that none of his material at all can be taken on trust; probably he will be in part re-habilitated in time. MacColl and Lloyd are both probably still too near at hand for objective assessment, though I'm sure that there are studies out there that I don't know about or haven't read yet. Both were certainly less than frank about the origins of some of the material they published, while remaining scrupulously scholarly in other respects, so it's a very difficult subject that's too much for a beginner like me!

The specific reference for Bronson 43.13, (and 43.12, too) incidentally, is The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, eds. Patrick Shuldham Shaw and Emily B. Lyle, vol.2 (1983); note on p.570:

302 JOCK SHEEP ...[Examples] A and Bb were confused with Child 43 "The Broomfield Hill" (322 "The Bonnie Broom-Fields") and have formerly been treated in print as versions of this ballad, although Duncan became aware that Bb at any rate belonged to the song called "The Maiden Outwitted" or "Jock Sheep", as his notes... make plain. A (with the first stanza only) appears under the heading of "The Broomfield Hill" in Last Leaves MS and Last Leaves and is reprinted as Bronson 13 of this ballad. Bb appears under this heading in Last Leaves and is reprinted as Bronson 12.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 06:04 PM

Thanks, Malcolm. I've read the two Brown papers you mention and I think I'm on David Buchan's/Grundtvig's side (as against Child) as to the reliability of Peter Buchan. Grundtvig argued that the barbarity of Peter Buchan's material was a sign of its genuineness, not of its being faked. I wonder if anyone is preparing or has prepared a paper on the general question of "reliability". It seems to me that the bad behaviour in this area ranges from singing verses "out of order" because it makes more sense that way, to wholesale (re)construction of what a ballad "must have been like originally". I haven't come across anywhere any discussion of "appropriate" versus "inappropriate" changes to an original informant's material (except for the obvious good faith question of revealing exactly what you've done to change the material).


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 08:24 PM

Bronson 43.17 The Merry Broomfield
Bronson 43.20 The Squire who lived in the West
Bronson 43.23 A Wager, A Wager
Bronson 43.27 (appendix) The Sea Captain; or The Miad on the Shore

Bronson 44 the Two Magicians
Bronson 44.2 (appendix) Hares on the Mountains
Bronson 44.12 (appendix) O Sally, my Dear


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: John Minear
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 08:55 PM

Jon, I'm very interested in the question that you have raised with Malcolm about changes to an original informant's material. I understand that you are primarily talking about the written record. I hope that I am not drifting here when I ask about this same issue in the context of a sung performance of a ballad as a way of handing on traditional material today.

I'm asking about a rather specific situation in which a living tradition of ballad singing has now almost come to it's end, but is still being performed on stage by someone born into that tradition. She presents the songs as she learned them from her extended family, using both oral and written sources. And she doesn't hesitate to change the order, or to delete and add verses from several different versions, because "it needs to make sense". And yet she has a profound sense of responsibility for her "heritage".

I know oral traditions are not static. In this case we have a mixture. Cecil Sharp collected Child ballads from members of this family and his books are treasured in this community and used as a resource for "preserving the tradition". But they are only one resource. Some of these songs have never been written down, but have been recorded electronically, without liner note lyrics. So we are still getting an oral presentation of the tradition. In many cases, there are recordings of other family members singing the same songs so comparisons can be made. I don't know how much more "authentic" these contemporarly performances could be. And I know they aren't the same as the early 1900s.

Granted, there aren't very many of these situations left anywhere, but it still raises questions for me about how one judges the parameters of the tradition and the nature of change within a tradition.

As I read back over what I have written, I realize that I have drifted and that there is a big difference between talking about written "scholarly" sources, and living ballad singing as tradition. And there is a big difference between somebody changing a text after he/she has received it from the singer and publishing the altered text without taking responsibility for the changes, and perhaps the singer changing a family text for performance, which then becomes a part of the handing of the tradition. I would say, that the ballad singer I have in mind often notes the changes that she has made to a particular ballad when she tells the story of how she learned the song, which is almost always a part of the presentation of the song.

I guess that a part of what I am asking is who really has a right - a poor way of stating this - to change traditional ballad materials, knowing that those materials have constantly changed over time in the process of being traditional. Is it primarily a matter of taking responsibility for those changes or simply not making them in the first place. In other contexts, one might ask "what makes a particular text sacred". Surely there is a difference between that perspective and what we are talking about here. And perhaps that difference lies in the nature of this particular tradition. I'm thinking here about ballads in general, but also about the "Child" tradition in particular.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 04:44 AM

I don't think there's a "drift" here, Turtle - I think a ballad in print and a ballad in the mouth are the same thing seem from different perspectives. The tradition ossifies itself when it starts thinking along lines such as "sacred text". What for me is central to the tradition these days is a notion of respect; one can respect "tradition-bearers" (a formulation I'm not especially happy with); one can respect the "tradition"; one can respect the ballad itself; one can respect the "text". Modern-day singers and ballad lovers move in a sort of dance with these four elements, now emphasising this element, and now that. If I ask myself what moves *me* to pay attention to "the ballad", it's a notion of an efficient form for the unconscious to speak to the unconscious. Such a form is for us adventitious - one can't consciously create such a form - it's more like a flower than a poem. So in a manner of speaking I'm a naturalist, interested in the soil this flower grows (and grows best) in, interested (with David Buchan) in the intricate design and balance in each stem and leaf; interested, ultimately, in making a place for this flower to grow and in encouraging folk to see and feel its beauty. Many things can be done with this plant we call the ballad; and not all of them are nice. Some gardeners I trust, because I think, when I see what they do, they care for the plant; Almeda Riddle and Peggy Seeger come to mind. I think that the language of "rights" (to change a ballad, for example) is a dead-end, and only comes about because of this age's obsession with ownership. I connect "respect" more strongly with trusteeship.

Thank you for encouraging me to think this through!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: John Minear
Date: 27 Aug 02 - 08:54 PM

Jon, you have said this in a very clear way. Your imagery of the "dance" and the "flower" are especially helpful. Your organic approach makes a lot of sense to me. I like the idea of being a gardener and a trustee of this heritage, and I like your examples of Almeda Riddle and Peggy Seeger. And I would agree that "ownership" seems especially inappropriate in this context. It's a question of responsibility and respect rather than rights. I appreciate your response.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 12 Sep 02 - 09:19 PM

recently completed:

Bronson 45.1 King John and the Abbot of Canterbury
Bronson 45.4 The Bishop of Canterbury; or King John
Bronson 45.7 King John
Bronson 45.15 The old Abbot and King Olfrey

Bronson 46.7 Captain Wedderburn's Courtship
Bronson 46.13 Six Questions
Bronson 46.14 Captain Wedderburn
Bronson 46.24 Mr. Woodburn's Courtship

Bronson 46 ap 1 My Love gave me a cherry

385 pages to go!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 08:11 PM

added:

Bronson 46 ap 2a I'll give My Love an Apple
Bronson 46 ap 3 I will give my love an apple
Bronson 46 ap 7 The Riddle Song
Bronson 46 ap 14 A Paradox
Bronson 46 ap 16 Go No More a-Rushing

Bronson 47.1 The Knicht o'Archerdale


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:37 PM

Bronson 49.1 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.4 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.11 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.13.1 The Twa Brothers


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM

Continuing the drift: When is it reasonable to "reconstruct" a ballad? Consider "Sir Patrick Spens." If we go strictly by the version we got in the "world literature" books in school, the song would be about 5 verses long and, largely, senseless. Working with both the early and later Child sets, it is possible to create a meaningful version of about 30 verses that tells the story more clearly. Is this ballad any more or less meaningful than the fragmentary versions laid out in Child?

Each version is someone's interpretation of what was passed along from the memory of a performer. As indicated above, none of the collectors are completely authoritative, no matter how hard they tried.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Abby Sale
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

mario: Where are the tunes posted?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:23 PM

They aren't posted anywhere yet - there is a probability they will be posted at a "quick link" site off the main mudcat site - however at the moment the ones I have done are available through me via e-mail (at least when I am at home, which I am not this week or next)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,TracyFSU
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:35 PM

For my Lit.380 course, I need to choose a CHild Ballad, play it for the class, then explain what the ballad means. I'm having a hard time choosing 1, being he has so many. Also, my knowledge on the subject in limited. Any suggestions? It would be greatly appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM

Tracy, I started a new thread for you so that maybe someone will notice, please click here.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

Added to my transcriptions:

Bronson 49.19 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.22 The Dying Soldier
Bronson 49.25 The Two Brothers
Bronson 49.29 John and William
Bronson 49.37 The Two Brothers

only 385 more pages to go!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:36 AM

added last night:

Bronson 51.2 Lizzie Wan
Bronson 51.4 Fair Lucy

Bronson 52.1 Lady Jean
Bronson 52.1.1 Queen Jane
Bronson 52.3 Fair Rosie Ann

Bronson 53.1 Lord Bakeman
Bronson 53.6 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.9 Lord Baykim (no text)
Bronson 53.12 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.23 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.30.2 Lord Bateman


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:22 PM

and also:

Bronson 53.34 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.27 The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.45 Lord Beichan and Susie Pye
Bronson 53.74 Young Beichan
Bronson 53.92 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.94 Young Becon
Bronson 53.100 Lord Bateman
Bronson 53.101 Lord Akeman
Bronson 53.105 A Gentleman of the Courts of England
Bronson 53.112 Young Bekie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:13 PM

adding merrily along:

Bronson 54.1 Joseph was an old man
Bronson 54.3 The Cherry Tree Carol
Bronson 54.16 The Cherry Tree Carol

Bronson 55.1 The Carnal and the Crane
Bronson 55.2 King Herod and the Cock

Bronson 56.1 Dives and Lazarus
Bronson 56.3 Dives and Lazarus
Bronson 56.5 Diverus and Lazarus
Bronson 56.13 Lazarus


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

knocked off a few more:

Bronson 58.2 Sir Patrick Spens
Bronson 58.3 Sir Patrick Spens
Bronson 58.5 Sir Patrick Spens

Bronson 61.1 Sir Colin

Bronson 62.1 Fair Annie
Bronson 62.3 Fair Annie

Bronson 63.1 Fair Margaret
Bronson 63.2 Lord William and Lady Margaret


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: boldreynard
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM

When I was at the Old Songs Festival in June, I picked up a brochure for the complete Child Ballads with CD-Rom that is due out in the near future. I have sent requests several times for a specific publication date, but have yet to receive a reply.

The website for the company is http://www.heritagemuse.com/

Their description of the project is as follows:

"Marking the 120th anniversary of the 1882 publication, this computerized edition of the complete set of original books has been developed for use by scholars, performers, and other ballad lovers. The "digital edition" offers fully searchable text of all 305 ballads and their notes (2800+ pages) with enhanced study aids including glossary and index links, a new geographical gazetteer with ballad maps, computer playable MIDI files of all music notations, and new essays on the ballads as literature and on folk-music collectors and collecting.

CD 1:         
Fully searchable and printable text with new essays, new maps and a gazetteer, MIDI files, and annotation, index and glossary hyperlinks.
CD 2:        
Audio CD (pop it in your stereo) containing new music tracks and interviews with outstanding contemporary interpreters, preservers, and collectors of the living song traditions. Full ballad performances from Jean Ritchie, Martin Carthy, Joan Baez, Louis Killen, Roberts & Barrand, Heather Wood, Anita Best, Archie Fisher, Heather Heywood, the Patons, and others."

I


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 01:17 PM

Bronson 65.1 Fair Janet

Bronson 299.17 Trooper and Maid
Bronson 299.13 A Bold Dragoon
Bronson 299.12 Trooper and the Maid
Bronson 299.3 Trooper and Maid

Bronson 295.47 The Brown Girl
Bronson 295.41 The Brown Girl
Bronson 295.26 Fair Sally
Bronson 295.20 Pretty Sally
Bronson 295.1 Fair Sally


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

Bronson 293.1 Jock o' Hazelgreen
Bronson 293.12 John of Hazelgreen
Bronson 293.16 Jock o' Hazeldean

340 pages to go!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:49 PM

took yesterday off as I was too busy checking on whether or not it was a baby yet...

above 'Fair Janet' should be Bronson 64.1

Bronson 65.1 Lady Maisery
Bronson 65.8 Lady Miasry
Bronson 65.12 Lady Maisry

Bronson 68.2 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.4 Earl Richard (no text)
Bronson 68.6 Earl Richard
Bronson 68.13 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.27 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.34 The ladie stude in her bour-door
Bronson 68.37 Young Hunting
Bronson 68.41 YOung Hunting

334 pages to go


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM

Todays:

Bronson 69.1 Clerk Saunders
Bronson 69.2 Clerk Saunders

Bronson 73.1 Lord Thomas and Fair Annet
Bronson 73.8 Lord Thmas' Wedding
Bronson 73.21 The Brown Girl
Bronson 73.71 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.91 Lord Thomas anf Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.95 Lord Thomas and Fair Elinor
Bronson 73.97 Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor
Bronson 73.103 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.115 Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor
Bronson 73.136 Lord Thomas and Fair Ellinor
Bronson 73.143 Sweet William and Fair Annie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:58 PM

skipping around a bit:

Bronson 289.40 The Mermaid
Bronson 289.30 The Mermaid
Bronson 289.25 Our Gallant Ship
Bronson 289.2 The Mermaid

Bronson 288.1 Young Essex (no text)
Bronson 288.2 Young Essex

Bronson 287.10 Captain Ward and the Rainbow
Bronson 287.9 Captain Ward and the Rainbow
Bronson 287.8 The Jolly Mariner
Bronson 287.3 Captain Ward

Bronson 285.10 The Wild Barbaree
Bronson 285.6 High Barbaree


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM

yup - it's that time of day again:

Bronson 74.1 William and Margaret - no text
Bronon 74.11 Lady Margaret
Bronson 74.47 Fair Margaret and Sweet William
Bronson 74.64 Fair Margaret and Sweet William
Bronson 74.68 Fair Margaret and Sweet William

Bronson 283.1 The Farmer and the Robber
Bronson 283.12 The Highwayman Outwitted
Bronson 283.18 the Oxford MErchant or The Hampshire Bite
Bronson 283.25 The Boy and the Cow
Bronson 283.38 The Lincolnshire Farmer
Bronson 283.40 The Yorkshire Bite (no text)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:35 PM

Bronson 282.6 Jock the Leg and the Merry Merchan'
Bronson 282.5 Jock the Leg
Bronson 282.2 = DT jockleg =Jock the Leg

Bronson 75.8 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.23 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.32.1 Lord Lovat
Bronson 75.42 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.46 Lord Lovell
Bronson 75.53 Lady Annisbel
Bronson 75.57 Lord Lovell

Bronson 76.1 Oh Open the Door, Lord Gregory
Bronson 76.4.1 Lord Gregory
Bronson 76.5 The Lass of Lochroyan
Bronson 76.16 Georgie Jeems

Bronson 77.1 There cam' a Ghost
Bronson 77.3 Sweet William's Ghost
Bronson 77.9 Sweet William's Ghost
Bronson 77.12 Sweet William's Ghost (text only - I can't make head no tails of the music.)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:28 PM

Just as a little break after many MMario posts in a row. I'm sure you know it, MMario, but it feels good nevertheless, so I say it:

I very much doubt that I am the only one to follow your work with admiration and anticipation. You're doing a great job and many people are looking forward to each single addition.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:46 PM

*grin/blush/grin*

well - I gotta admit - I'm hoping someone gives me/loans me one of those out of print un-expurgegated bawdy songbooks for my next project. or comic songs -


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM

Bronson 78.10 Cold blows the Wind
Bronson 78.27 How Cold the Winds do Blow
Bronson 78.35 Cold Blows the Wind
Bronson 78.36 The Unquiet Grave
Bronson 78.41 Cold Blows the Wind = Child 78F


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Mockingbird MacGillickutty
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:30 AM

I would suggest # 2 LAIRD O ELFIN . It is an ambitious pre nuptual negotiation session between a pastoral maid of meager means and her supernatural suitor. Let us know what else tou learn from the song.
Bronson dishes up some melodies and Ewan MaColl did a fine recording (Folkways). Every Rose groes merry in time. Ye maun plogh't wi' yer ane mind. Thank you , Mockingbird


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 03:12 PM

Bronson 79.1 The Wife of Usher's Well = Child A = DT USHRWEL2
Bronson 79.3 There Was a Lady in Merry Scotland = DT USHERWEL
Bronson 79.5 The Wife of Usher's Well
Bronson 79.20 The Wife of Usher's Well
Bronson 79.30 Lady Gay
Bronson 79.43 The Wife of Usher's Well
Bronson 79.48 The Three Little Babes
Bronson 79.54 Lady Gray (no text)

Bronson 81.6 Lord Orland's Wife
Bronson 81.15 Lyttle Musgrave
Bronson 81.27 Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard
Bronson 81.55 Lord Arnold (no text)


282 pages to go.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

Bronson 81.66 Lord Banner

Bronson 83.1 Gill Morice
Bronson 83.4 Babe Norice
Bronson 83.5 Gill Morice
Bronson 83.7 Gill Morice

Bronson 84.2 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.12 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.14 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.28 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.30 Barb'ra Allyn
Bronson 84.33 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.38 Barbara Ellen
Bronson 84.40 Bonny Barbara Allan - Child A

only 12 more examples of Barbara Allan to go! (plus about 270 pages of other songs)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:45 PM

Added:

Bronson 84.44 Barbara Allan
Bronson 84.52 barbary Allen
Bronson 84.60 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.63 Barabara Allen
Bronson 84.68 Barbara Ellen
Bronson 84.79 Babie Allan
Bronson 84.83 Barbra Ellen
Bronson 84.84 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.137 Barbara Allen
Bronson 84.142 Barbry Ellen
Bronson 84.156 Barbru Allan
Bronson 84.167 Barbara Allan (no text)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:44 AM

Bronson 85.2 George Collins
Bronson 85.18 Georgie Collins
Bronson 85.?? George Collins
Bronson 85.26 Giles Collins
Bronson 85.29 George Collins
Bronson 85.34 George Collins

Bronson 86.1 Young Benjie = Child 86A

Bronson 88.2 Willie and the YOung Cornel - approximates Child 88C
Bronson 88.4 = Johnson and the Colonel = DT JOHNSTON


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:25 PM

Bronson 88.6 Young Johnstone

Bronson 92.1 Abroad as I was Walking
Bronson 92.6 The Lowlands of Holland
Bronson 92.7 The Lowlands of Holland
Bronson 92.10 Lowlands of Holland
Bronson 92.16 The Lowlands of Germany

Bronson 93.2 False Lamkin
Bronson 93.5a Bolakins


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 01:58 PM

Added to my files:
Bronson 93.8 False Lambkin
Bronson 93.12 Lamkin
Bronson 93.27 Lambkin (no text)
Bronson 93.29 Long Lankin or YOung Lambkin

Bronson 95.1 Oh, Stop Your Hand, Lord Judge (no text)
Bronson 95.2 The Maid Freed from the Gallows
Bronson 95.4 The Prickly Bush
Bronson 95.17 The Prickly Bush ~ Child K


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 03:55 PM

Bronson 156 - Earl Marshall = DT QECONFES = Child F

X:1
T:Earl Marshall
C:traditional
N:**Bronson notes:Motherwell notes that 'in singing, the two last lines of each stanza are repeated"; but oddly in his appendix the repitition is not indicated
N:tentatively dated to Elizabethean times
I:abc2nwc
M:2/2
L:1/8
K:G
z6D2|G2D2G2D D|(G A) (B c) d2"^|"B2|
w:QUEENE EL-EA-NOR was a sick_ wo_-man,And
c2d2(e d) (c B)|A4z2"^|"|:D2|G2(G F) E2F G|A2F2D2"^|"D2|
w:sick just like_ to_ die,And she has_ sent for two fryars of France,To
G2G G A2D2|G4z2:|z2
w:come to her speed-i-lie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:43 PM

Following on from the earlier postings in this thread, I've converted Cathy Preston's original text file into an SQL database. I started this purely for my own purposes, but thought others might find it useful too, so have set it up on the web. This is on a free webspace site, so response times may be poor at certain times of the day. It uses CSS, so older browsers probably won't display it properly.

You can browse ballads by title and by Child's no, and also search within titles or within the text. The normal caveats for searching text of this sort apply: e.g. 'Robin Hood' also appears as 'Robbin Hood' (shades of The Battle of Epping Forest) and I lost track of the number of different spellings of 'Nottingham'. The text is also littered with brackets, which complicates searching. (I suppose I could try changing the search routine to ignore brackets.)

An earlier posting asked about the /C and other odd characters. This came from incomplete conversion of Cathy's file when creating the HTML file that prompted the original posting to this thread. Another major problem with that HTML file was that some brackets within the text are angled, which confuses browsers and meant that large chunks of text simply weren't displayed at all. I have got rid of these problems (I hope), but am pretty sure others remain. In particular, there are quite a few duplicate lines which look spurious to me. Unfortunately, I don't have a complete Child to check, so if someone with a copy and lots of time . . .

65k has 2 verses 7 and 8, so if someone can let me know how this should read, I'll change it. And 63D starts at verse 24 - are 23 verses missing??

Believe it or not, Cathy actually sat down and typed all this lot in as part of her PhD studies. As she was solely interested in the text, there are no titles or sources in the main file. However, part of the file came from a different source (this complicated conversion), which included Child's source comments, so these appear in nos 56-63. Refrains are marked up in the earlier songs, but it looks like enthusiasm for this waned and so this markup doesn't appear in later ones. If someone wants to give me this info, I can add it to the DB. The titles I have got from elsewhere, but there are none of the variant titles. Again, if someone has time to tap these in to a text file (CSV or whatever) and send them to me, I can add them to the DB.

It's the nature of tapping in such a large volume of text that there are pretty well bound to be errors, but despite this, I would guess the text is good enough for most people.

Which brings me on to MMario's efforts. Assuming that the nos there correspond to Child's, then it should be quite easy to incorporate these into the site, especially if there's a link between the variants in Bronson and those in Child. Perhaps ABC and midi files would be most useful, and I can easily run abc2ps to produce a graphical version of the 'sheet music' which can be displayed alongside. Perhaps you can send me some samples MMario? mudcat@peterrobins.co.uk

The statistically minded may be interested to know that the DB has 305 titles, 1216 variants and 23219 verses.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM

samples sent.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM

If this is duplicated I apologise ... I thought I'd posted it already.

The web site just above doesn't work properly for me using Internet Explorer, but it does using Opera.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:11 PM


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

sorry, pressed return too quickly

hmm, I'll have to look into IE. I tested with Mozilla, Opera and Konqueror, but my Windows m/c is out of action at the moment as the disk died.

I realised after posting that the previous posting contained an abc, so I've converted it and stuck it on the web. This is the default size, resolution, etc. Words aren't too legible, but notes are ok.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: GUEST,Peter Robins
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM

should now display ok in IE too


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: minnesinger5
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 10:40 PM

Dear folkies and folkers, Please help out a refugee minnesinger5.
For the life of me I cannot access the J.F.Child ballad site as so teasingly alluded to throughout this thread. O, Well.
Also: I really need to know the tune sources for the following songs:
Scarborough Fair (Bronson's collections, for example, of the Elfin Knight (Child #2) give divergent but unrelated melodies,) yet I know that our wiley professional, Mr. Paul Simon got the thing somewhere. Ditto the entire "Lay Down Your Weary Tune, Lay Down" by Mr. Bob Dylan. He once said that he heard it on a UK radio broadcast-apparently a hymn or anthem to which he applied some woody-inspired naturalisticks. Thirdly, why are tunes like :Caerrick Fergus often by-lined (given a composers' credit).   I think I found the tune to "Pity the Poor Immigrant" as an unpronounceable Welsh lament-very similar.
I suppose what I need to know most is: Can I use Mr. Simon's stolen melody(return it to 4/4 time) or mr Dylan's wonderful cultural thefts even though a publisher has seen fit (wrongly?) to claim the thing for our Dour Bard of the North/Central? Hey anybody, let me know: minnesinger5@yahoo.co.nz


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:07 PM

1.  The story is all too well-known. Use the onsite search engine.

2.  Discussed here in the past; I forget the details, but again, they can be quite easily found.

3.  Because people who recorded such songs in the 1950s and '60s wanted to make sure that any consequent payments went to them, not to the record company. Subsequently, agencies such as Harry Fox have rather tended to assume that any song sharing a title with one registered with them must ipso facto belong to them.

4.  Yes; but make sure that you credit the prior source in each case; and in each case, incorporate none of the changes made by the copyright claimant. Credit where it's due, essentially, and never begrudge a deserved royalty payment (in the case of Scarborough Fair, the guitar part belongs unequivocally to Martin Carthy, from whom Paul Simon copied it). The majority of songs sung (and recorded) as "traditional" are, technically, nothing of the kind; as most performers learn their material from books (where texts and tunes are more often than not collated from numerous sources) and from records made by other, slightly earlier, Revival performers; these are likely to have been deliberately changed from the genuine traditional forms, either to make them (a) "better" (b) longer, or (c) more easily copyrightable...

Hrumph.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: minnesinger5
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:04 AM

Hold on, there folks. You mean to say that the Bronson police ( or the Princeton police) are going to raid the next wake wherein I am asked to sing "Famous Flou'r O' Servin' Men" or "Ow'r Young Bekie" for the lack or public domain? "Yez can find me, yez coppas, but yea'll have to come in an' git me, yez hear?" Group wake, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: winterchild
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:42 AM

Way to go, MMario!!

And Child Ballads are right down my [dirt track thru the woods], too!

Wait till I send this thread to some of my friends!

Um, Minnesinger, Malcolm may have been referring to recorded performances or concerts; I don't think you have to worry about small gatherings such as wakes.... 'tho I could be wrong.

WinterChild


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

I meant mainly just to say "don't take too much for granted". It depends on where you learnt a song, and what had been done to it previously; and what arrangements the country in which you live has concerning copyright and the collection of Mechanical and Performing Rights charges. Nobody's going to come after you for singing a song in an informal setting (or any other kind, for that matter) but a venue that regularly hosts musical events may have to pay a license fee up front to cover "inadvertent use" of copyright material. If you make a commercial recording, of course, stricter rules apply.

Some of the tunes in Bronson were reproduced by permission of their owners (don't forget that some were collected by, or from, people still living), and similar permissions should, technically, be sought for their reproduction elsewhere. Again, in practice, it is unlikely that anyone would mind in the least unless there were money involved or the printed set were reproduced in facsimile (in which case some formal agreement would be required), but as a normal courtesy such reproduction should in any case always include the names of singer and collector (and, where applicable, editor and publisher). A great many folk song books were published specifically to furnish fresh material for singers, and with no intention of collecting royalties from such use; paradoxically, the songs in such books tend to be the most altered from the (often garbled or incomplete) forms in which they were found in tradition, and are in some cases virtually new compositions (though made with re-cycled materials). The copyright status of such material, though it undoubtedly is copyright, tends to be theoretical only; never enforced (so far as I know) where someone sings or records the material; reproduction in print or equivalent is another matter, though I doubt if anyone would bother much about it except in the case of clear abuse.

In the case of The Famous Flower, there are a number of traditional tunes known for it (including some found since Bronson published); the DT file has two (uncredited) tunes, one of which is traditionally associated with the ballad (a version from New Hampshire, as it happens); the other, though traditional, belongs to a quite different song. Martin Carthy learned it from Hedy West, and set his re-written version of The Famous Flower to it. The DT text is not in itself a traditional one, but is a collation made from bits and pieces from various sources, but chiefly Carthy, who added a certain amount of material which does not appear in traditional versions.

As it happens, we know who wrote the original ballad (it was Laurence Price, and he registered it in 1656) but doubtless he based it on earlier material of some sort (not necessarily a song). That doesn't affect its status as the traditional song it subsequently became, though. There are times in the life of a song, however, when, even if it is indisputably "traditional" in some of its forms, a particular example of it will be "fixed" in a particular shape, whether through the publication (and consequent entering into the copyright cycle) of a particular version, or by the intervention of an editor or performer who consciously re-shapes it, sometimes quite radically, for artistic purposes. In this way, there can exist both public-domain and "owned" forms of a song.

Is the "owned" form still traditional? Opinions will differ, and I am not the judge of them; but my feeling at the moment is that a song found in tradition and published "as is" is unaffected except insofar as the collector and source have a legal interest in that version of it (which they may choose not to enforce); whereas a form consciously and significantly modified for publication or for recording is not a "traditional version", though it may be a version of a thing that is traditional; and may in its own right eventually enter tradition alongside its cousins still living in the wild, so to speak.

Little of this need concern Minnesinger; I mention it because it's a topic I find myself having to consider quite a lot just at present, and to illustrate the point that the whole "traditional/public domain/owned" question is a great deal more complex than is generally realised.

Oh yes, the source of the Scarborough Fair tune that Paul Simon got from Martin Carthy. That particular version came from Mark Anderson, a retired lead-miner of Middleton-in-Teesdale, Yorkshire, in 1947. It was printed in Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger's book The Singing Island in 1960, noted in a combination of 6/4 and 9/4 time.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 10:57 AM

this has been going slowly lately - but added

Bronson 95.23 The Hangman's Tree
Bronson 95.33 The Maid Freed from the Gallows

Bronson 39.1 Hold Up YOur Hand - skipping


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:32 PM

The Child Ballad Collection is an interesting project - an attempt to catalogue all the recordings of Child Ballads.
Take a look.
I tried to install their database on my computer, but I couldn't get it to work on Windows Vista (I don't have Microsoft Access, and the runtime version they provided won't work on Vista).
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:32 AM

This seems similar this site which I've mentioned before: Child Ballads Project. Is it related or an independent venture?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: chrisr18
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

Can anyone recommend to me any good print editions or sites available online of the Child ballads that have the tunes included? These are all wonderful sites and great resources but none of them seem to have the music written out. Thanks for any help.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:26 PM

Child only published the words of the ballads. He was a literature professor and as such was not really interested in the tunes.

You can find copies of the words to the Child Ballads here

Tunes to which many of the Child Ballads were/are sung have been published but I do not think you will find that information gathered in one place on the web. There are other 'Catters who know much more about this than I do and who will hopefully post more information.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:31 PM

I don't know of any online sites.   I *think* the loomis house versions include the bronson tunes.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

The site Joe linked to in Jan. and the one MickMCP notes are linked insofaras the authors are two of those involved in collecting & posting as many recorded versions of the Child ballads as possible. They...(and 2-3 others) just finished a 2nd round of collecting & posting and are continuously adding new versions (and in some cases VERY old versions from long out of print recordings). There are over 5000 examples now..(including some instrumentals and some in languages other than English)

I have followed their progress for 2-3 years, and it is amazing to see & hear some of the ways the ballads have been interpreted and processed...some good and some...well, 'different'.

It is helping me clarify some of the stories and relationships between the ballads....and learn about some singers I had not heard of who do fine jobs on some of the ballads. I have some new ideas about where to seek good music!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: masato sakurai
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:47 PM

Internet Archive: Text Archive is the most resourceful, because you can download the whole volumes of The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1882-1898) there. In adition, Helen Child Sargent and George Lyman Kittredge, eds., English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1904), and Tristram P. Coffin, The British Traditional Ballad In North America (1950) are available.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: chrisr18
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:21 AM

Thanks Tootler and MMario. I just checked the library and it looks like the Loomis House versions do have some tunes in them. I also had forgotten that I remembered seeing a collection of I think the Bronson books at the library at Wellesley College, which I visit from time to time, so thanks for indirectly reminding me of that.

Also, masato, thanks a lot for the Archive links, I don't know why I didn't think of that to begin with. Part of my work right now is helping get books ready to be digitized into the Archive, so that was just a bit of a brain cramp on my part I guess.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 10:33 PM

Just found this - cd contains scanned pages from the original hardback edition

Ebay Child Ballads on CD

Ross


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:24 AM

Since you can get scanned copies of child from The Internet Text Archive (including the original scans from the FTP site if you wish) I can't see why you'd bid for the CD on ebay. Generally I'd say the pdfs or djvu files were easier to work with.

Between The Internet Text Archive and Google books there are a lot of ballad related book, mainly 19th century but a few earlier and some from the early years of the 20th century, available. I have about 200 books downloaded from these sites relating to ballads and songs that came from these site.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:48 AM

Chris, we may well be the best online source for tune for Child Ballads. It's a bit tricky to search for Child Ballads here - put

child_#

(don't forget the underscore) in the search box, and they'll come up.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM

For the various Child Ballad versions & variations found in the Max Hunter archive:

http://maxhunter.missouristate.edu/child.html


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: chrisr18
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:01 AM

Thanks for the tip, Joe, it's turned up some useful stuff.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: chrisr18
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:02 AM

Oh and thanks for that Max Hunter link, too, that's some really great stuff.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 07:19 PM

Inevitable, I suppose: Child Ballads in Wikisourse; there are linked articles in Wikipedia for each.

(Sorry if this has been mentioned before... I couldn't find any...)

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM

I came across an interesting Child Ballads project today: http://71.174.62.16/Demo/LongerHarvest. I can't figure out who produced this Website, but I'm impressed.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM

wow... lots of stuff there! Thanks Joe.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 01:41 PM

Just to point out that both "Long Harvest" (10 CDs of music plus one CD containing complete notes for the 10 CDs) and "Blood & Roses" (5-CD set) have been re-issued and are available from CAMSCO Music.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballad site
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:34 PM

Also to point out that Bronson'a 4 volumes of "Traditional Tunes to the Child Ballads, and his condensation single volume "The Singing Tradition of the Child Ballads" , as well as the Loomis House Edition of Child and Sharp's "English Folk Song in the Soputhern Appalachians" (volume 1 consists of ballads)are all available from either Loomis House Press or CAMSCO Music.


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