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Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2

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Richie 06 Mar 12 - 09:04 AM
Richie 06 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM
Steve Gardham 06 Mar 12 - 09:46 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 06 Mar 12 - 09:48 AM
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Mick Pearce (MCP) 06 Mar 12 - 09:57 AM
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Subject: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:04 AM

Hi,

This is a continuation of the thread--Child Ballads: US Versions. I'm studying the Child ballads and putting text and music on my web-site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-305-child-ballads.aspx

So far we've looked at ballads 1-53. My focus is on the US and Canadian versions but I'm also including Child's narrative and the English and other versions.

Recently I've started and nearly completed Child 54, the Cherry Tree Carol: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/54-the-cherry-tree-carol.aspx

If anyone has any additional versions of The Cherry Tree Carol please post them.

TY for the help and contributions you have made to this study. There are new insights, additions and corrections that we have made.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:19 AM

Hi,

I've started 56. Dives and Lazarus and need the text to a version collected by Sharp in EFSSA titled "Lazarus" Sung by Mr. & Mrs. Gabriel Coats. There's another version by Mrs. Laura Beckett.   

Need the version from G. P. Jackson, Down East Spirituals. I'm especially interested in the shape-note connection.

I'm missing most the the US version- the ones collected by Gainer, Kirkland and Flanders I don't have.

Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:46 AM

Richie
I have EFSSA, some Gainer material possibly and Flanders. But before I check these out have you made any progress yet with Flanders 53?
See my suggestion at the end of the last thread, which was to let you have a list of the sources for the 22 Flanders versions. No point in me scanning them all if you already have some of them.

My scanner is now back in operation thanks to Mick and Lexmark helpdesk.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:48 AM

Richie here's Lazarus from EFSSA. Note that Sharp doesn't include this in the Ballad section but in the Songs. He does however, in his notes, refer to Child 56:

Texts with tunes:- Davis's Traditional Ballads of Virginia, pp175 and 566. Compare Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads, No.56. Journal of the Folk Song Society, ii. 125; viii. 19

This is from my hard copy, but you can find EFSSA at archive.org too: EFSSA - 1917 edition

Let me know if you want the tune posted too.


Mick




Lazarus

There was a man in ancient times,
The Scriptures doth inform us,
Whose pomp and grandeur and whose crimes
Was great and very num'rous.
This rich man fared sumptuously each day
And was dressed in purple fine linen
He eat and drink, but scorned to pray,
And spent his day in sinning.

This poor man lay at the rich man's gate,
To help himself unable,
And there he lay to humbly wait
For the crumbs from his rich table.
But not one crumb would this happy cure (epicure)
Ever aye protend to send him.
The dogs took pity and licked his sores,
More ready to befriend him.

This poor man died at the rich man's gate,
Where angel bands attended;
Straightway to Abraham's bosom flown,
Where all his sorrows ended.
This rich man died and was buried too,
But O, his dreadful station;
With Abraham and Lazarus both in view
He landed in damnation.

He cried: O father Abraham,
Send Lazarus with cold water,
For I'm tormented in these flames
With these tormenting tortures.
Says Abraham: Son, remember well,
You once did God inherit,
But now at last your doom's in hell
Because you would not cherish.
Go where you cannot now enjoy,
Which augments your damnation;
Besides there is a gulf between
Prevents communication.

Source: Sharp English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, sung by Mr & Mrs Gabriel Coates at Flag Pond, Tenn., Sept. 1, 1916


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:51 AM

Richie, sorry,
I've seen the end of the other thread now. The thing about the texts in Flanders 'Ancient Ballads' is they are not all collected by her. Some are culled from other sources such as Barry.

I think the sensible thing to do is to send you a list + sources for you to check first. Scanning 60 pages will take an age.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 09:57 AM

Here's the 2nd version from EFSSA, which is only fragmentary. Note that this was collected in 1918 and is not in the edition of EFSSA at archive.org that I linked above. This is from my 1966 hard copy reprint of the 1932 edition.


I should also point out that the word protend in the previous version is as written.

Mick




Lazarus

There was a man in ancient times,
Our Saviour doth inform us,
Whose pomp and grandeur and whose crimes
Was very great and num'rous.
.... <tune only>
In purple and fine linen
He ate and drank but scorned to pray,
And spent his time in sinning.


Source: Sharp English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, sung by Mrs Laura Beckett at St.Peter's School, Callaway, Va., Aug. 16, 1918


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:31 AM

Flanders 'Ancient Ballads traditionally Sung in New England' Vol II,
Young Beichan, Child 53, p9>.

A. Edward O Young & Daughters, of Bellows Falls, Coll Flanders, 1938
B. Ellen Doten, Vermont, from Mr Tabor's Old Song Book.
C. Arthur Walker, Littleton, Maine, Coll. Olney, 1942
D. Alonzo, Lewis, York, Me, Olney, 1947.
E. Belle Richards, Colebrook, NH, Olney, 1947
F. Asa Davis, Milton, Vt., Flanders, 1939
G. J. E. Shepard, Baltimore, Vt., Flanders, 1933
H. Josiah Saml. kennison, Townshend, Vt., Geo Brown, 1930
I. Barbara Pierce, N. Shrewsbury, Vt., Flanders, 1953
J. W. B. Morton, Groton, Vt., flanders, 1937
K. Mrs. W. L. Bryant, Springfield, Vt., Flanders, 1930s
L. Lena Rich, Belvidere, Vt., Olney, 1954
M. Orlon Merrill, Charlestown, NH, Flanders, 1931
N. Ella Doten scrapbook, N. Calais, Vt., Olney, 1941
O. Mrs. Grant coville, Pittsburg, NH, Olney, 1941
P. Gramma Grandey, Bennington, Vt., Olney, 1945
Q. Emma Burke, Providence, RI, Olney, 1945
R. Mrs Herbert Bailey, Putney, Vt., Flanders, 1931
S. Mrs Theodore Sprague, Readsboro, Vt., Brown, 1930
T. Lena Bourne Fish, East Jaffrey, NH, Olney, 1940 (Got this one?)
U. Mrs Michael Mulcahy, Rutland, Vt., Flanders, 1955
V. Anna Fiske Hough, brandon, Vt., Olney, 1940/42
W. Fred Ballard, Jamaica, Vt., Brown, 1930
X. George Farnham, Wardsboro, Vt., Brown, 1930.

While I'm on there's just 1 version of 54 from Vermont and just a fragment of 56 in Flanders.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:37 AM

Richie,
I'll just remind you once more that there are lots of resources on the Indiana Ballad List who I'm sure would be able to offer you help from your own side of the pond, not that 2 old Yorkshiremen mind helping out. It almost seems like a very small thankyou to what was done at Harvard all those years ago.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

What is Kirkland? I haven't got Gainer. It's one of those I keep meaning to add.

Can you PM me with your email address and I'll start scanning stuff from Flanders?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 10:52 AM

54
A quick look at my indexes tells me there are American versions in Niles!!, Davies, E&C Moore, Morris, Creighton (TSNS), Pound, Bulletin of the North East II, and Brown (NCF2) and probably other general collections like Lomax and Leach.

56
Niles!!, Davies and little else.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 12:50 PM

Thanks guys,

I'd like to dedicated this thread to Malcolm Douglas. And thanks guys for your help and advice. Steve, I'll pm you with my email.

Here are some missing Dives and Lazarus:

The Kirkland is: J. Jarnigan, Tennessee in the Southern Folklore Quarterly (1938) pp.66-68 Collected Kirkland, Edwin Capers & Mary Neal   

Two others:

Bud Bush, Folk Songs of Central West Virginia 1 pp.41-44   

Mrs. Neely Robbins WPA Collection, Univ. of Virginia, Charlotteville, No.295   


Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 02:36 PM

I don't know if you've already got them, but vols 1-7 of Brown are available at archive.org. The versions of Dives and Lazarus Steve referred to in vol 2 are here: NCF2 - Dives and Lazarus.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

TY Mick,

I have put the entire Brown collection on my web-site. (I'm not finished proofing - haha) Here's part of Lazarus 1.

'The Rich Man and Lazarus.' Reported by L G. Greer of Boone, Watauga county; not dated, but about 1915- 16.

I There was a man in ancient times,
The scripture doth inform us,
Whose pomp and grandeur and whose crimes
Were great and very numerous.
This rich man fared sumptuously each day
And was dressed in purple fme linen;
He ate and drank, hut scorned to pray,
And spent his day in singing.

In the original document it has singing (see last word in first verse) crossed out then "sinning" handwritten above it. So it should be:

And spent his day in sinning

Greer was well documented and he and his wife recorded teh first version of Earl Brand in NYC 1929.

My hope is to show that this and the nearly identical version from Sharp that you posted were sung and probably printed at least as as shape-note hymns broadsides. Jackson, I believe points this out but I don't have his book.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:55 PM

It should be I.G. Greer of course.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Mar 12 - 08:27 AM

Hi,

There's a great article on the Coates family by Mike Yates:
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/coates.htm

It quotes the Lazarus text. Because "happy cure (epicure)" appears in both the Coates and Greer text's it seems likely that Greer was aware of the Coates text (published in 1917) and later added this to his manuscript.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 Mar 12 - 11:25 PM

Hi,

I've put the few US version I have on here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-56-dives-and-lazarus.aspx

Here's my list:

The Rich Man and Lazarus- I. G. Greer (NC) c. 1915 Brown
The Rich Man and Lazarus- Miller (NC) 1915 Brown
Lazarus- Coates (TN) 1916 Sharp
Lazarus and Dives- Pritt (Va.) 1924 Davis
Dives and Lazarus- Higgins (KY) 1934 Niles
Dives and Laz'us- (African-American) Lomax; 1934
Lazarus- Aunt Molly Jackson (KY) 1939 Recording

Missing Flanders and some of the version preiously mentioned,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 12 - 03:45 PM

Richie,
be quicker to drop me an email at gardhams?hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 08:33 AM

Hi,

I'm working on Child 68 Young Hunting- US versions. I need lyrics for Jean Ritchie's version- here's the first verse:

Folk songs of the southern Appalachians as sung by Jean Ritchie

Light down, light down, lovin' Henry she cried
And stay all night with me;
The golden cords all around my bed
Shall be supplied to thee.

I also need the lyrics to Jess Young's Tennesse Band (Lovin' Henry, recorded in 1929).

Were the Barry lyrics from 1929 teh source of "The False Lady" text is here at Mudcat?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 09:02 AM

Richie,
I've been right through the book and can't find any song that starts with this, and in my indexes the Jean Richie book hasn't got an entry for Young Hunting. I'll keep looking.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 09:17 AM

Version G in Sharp's EFSSA1 starts 'Light you down, light you down, love Henry.'

It's not in her book Singing Family in the Cumberlands or on 'The Child Ballads in America Album Vol 2. I haven't got Vol 1.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 11:26 AM

Should be under the title Loving Henry in Ritchie: Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians (2nd edn., 1997) pp.89-90.

The recording was also on the CD that Heritage Muse released with their edition of Child.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 11:31 AM

Ritchie - have you seen the 8 versions of Loving Henry recordings at LOC - Loving Henry?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 11:32 AM

Richie - Apologies for name misspelling; too much looking for Jean...!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 01:01 PM

Hi,

There is some missing information about the source of "The False Lady" text since I do not have Barry's book, British ballads from Maine (Phillips Barry, Fannie Hardy Eckstorm, Mary Winslow Smyth - 1929). It was reprinted in 1937 with a piano score by Hilton Rufty and I assume recorded in 1954 by Andrew Rowan Summers under the more proper title, The Faulse Ladye. The 1937 Hilton Rufty text uses the "faulse ladye" and lists the source as New Brunswick, Canada.

Unfortunately none of the 8 versions of Loving Henry recordings at LOC are accessible online- it's good to know that they are there--TY

Here's what I have so far- still haven't put all the Sharp versions:

Lord Barnet and Fair Eleonder- (VA) 1917 Davis A
Sir Henry & Lady Margaret- Witt (VA) 1919 Davis B
Proud Lady Margaret- (VA) 1917 Davis C
Lord Henry- (VA) 1922 Davis E
Young Hunting- Walton (VA) 1919 Davis F
Young Hunting- Gentry (NC) 1916 Sharp A
Young Hunting- Landers (NC) 1916 Sharp C
Young Hunting- Keeton (VA) 1916 Sharp D
Young Hunting- Chandler (NC) 1916 Sharp B
Young Hunting- Southerland (NC) 1914 Sharp E
Young Hunting- Hall (Georgia) 1914 Sharp F
Lowe Bonnie- Jimmie Tarlton (SC) 1930 Recording
Young Hunting- Gallagher (NS) 1937 Creighton
Scotland Man- Landers (NC) 1960s Recording
Loving Henry- Workman (KY-WV) 1978 Recording
Young Henerly- Hammons (WV) 1970 Recording
Lord Henry & Lady Margaret- Whittaker (Mo.) 1928
Young Hunting- Lunsford (Appalachians) 1929
Loving Henery- Johnson (VA) pre1936 Scarborough A
Come In, Loving Henery- Keene (Va) pre1936 Scarborough B
Lord Henry- Hill (WV) 1916 Cox A
Love Henry- McKinney (WV) 1919 Cox B
Lord Banyan- Dusenbury (Mo.) 1876 Randolph B
Little Scotchee- Pierce (SC) 1928 Smith
Henry Lee- "Dick" Justice (WV) 1929 Recording
Loving Heneary- Tucker (Georgia) 1931 Mellinger Henry
Lord Bonnie- York (NC) 1939 Brown Collection
Oh Henery- Trivette (NC) 1939 Brown Collection
My Love Heneree- Proffitt (NC) c. 1920 Warner 1959
Loving Henry- Bowerman; pre1936 Scarborough C
Lovin' Henry- Lamb and Rowe (KY) 1949 Roberts
Lady Margot & Love Henry- Johnson (VA) 1933 Niles
The False Lady- Barry (New Brunswick) 1929

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 05:50 PM

Only got the 1965 edition of Ritchie. Will have a look tomorrow to see if I can add to your list.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 11:20 PM

Hello from Maine
I'm working on a catalogue of all Child Ballads from Maine. Will be happy to share when I get it organized.
BTW British Ballads from Maine Volume 2 by Fanny Hardy Eckstorm is due to be published by the Maine Folklife Center this month (April) Fred and I helped edit the music. The missing manuscript was found recently by Pauleena MacDougall, director of the MFC while researching for a biography on Fanny.

stay tuned
Julia Lane


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 10:47 AM

Richie
Belden p35 has Bresnehen, 1916, Linn County. 13 stanzas.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 10:50 AM

Lowe Bonnie. Sing Out reprints spells his name Tarleton.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 10:55 AM

McNeil, Southern Folk Ballads Vol II p76 from Linda Beth Waldron, White Springs, Florida, 1986. 7v +tune


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 11:14 AM

Have you got all the Davis versions mentioned in all 3 volumes?
8 in FS of Va.
6 in Trad Ball of Va
6 in More Trad Ball of Va.

I realise that some of these are duplicated but I could check for you if necessary.

E & C O Moore, Ball &FS of the Southwest p47 'Love Henry' John Younger, Tulsa, 11v+tune + 2 other fragmentary versions one with tune.

Texas Folk Songs, Wm A Owens p16 has Bernice Kitchens,Blossom, Texas, 1938, 7v + tune.

A C Morris FS of Florida p263 has Mrs G A Griffin, Newberry. 5v + Tune.

Creighton and Senior, Trad Songs from NS p36 has the Mrs Edward Gallagher version which you appear to have, but this is nfollowe by another version with 16v from Jack Anderson, of Roman Valley.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 11:25 AM

You ought to have the version which includes bits of other ballads 'The Lord of Scotland, by George Edwards, 18v + tune in FS of the Catskills.Cazden et al.

Flanders Ancient Ballads Vol 2 has only a single tune from Mrs Rosanna J parker, Newbury, Vt.

A ramble through the Roud Index would probably turn up more.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 09:07 AM

Hi,

Thaks fro all the suggestions.

I added these:

Lord of Scotland- Edwards (NY) c.1940s Cazden
Love Henry- Carter (KY) 1917 Sharp G
Young Hunting- Dunagan (KY) 1917 Sharp H
Young Hunting- Deeton (NC) 1918 Sharp N
Loving Henry- O'Bryant (Kansas) 1958 Max Hunter
Lord Land- Borusky (Wisconsin) 1938 JOAFL
Lou Bonnie- Gilbert (Ark.) 1971 Max Hunter
Loving Henry- Majors (Kansas) 1950s? Max Hunter
Henry Lee- Krussel (Mo.) 1975 Max Hunter
Loving Henry- Pettit (KY) pre1907 Kittredge
Loving Henry- Whitt (KY) pre1916 Kittredge
Young Henry- Bresnehen (Mo.) c.1875 Kittredge
Love Henry- Wadsworth (Indiana) pre1916 Kittredge

The texts and music are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-68-young-hunting.aspx

Some of the texts I haven't finished- need to scan.

Here are some other missing texts, Campbell's may have been reprinted by Sharp in 1917:

A similar text ("Love Henry") was printed in Delaney's "Scotch Song Book No. I," p. 6 (New York, William W. Delaney).' Variants of this version are reported by Mrs. Olive Dame Campbell, "The Survey" (New York, Jan. 2, 1915).

TY all,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 03:22 PM

I've started the monster No. 73 Lord Thomas/Brown Girl. I assume, from briefly looking at it, that Child gives 4 US and Canadian versions- is that correct?

Any earlier US versions? I've found two.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 04:08 PM

I'm suspicious about "tracing songs back through the family" unless there's a contemporaneous record.

Only academic types pay much attention to just which forebear sang a song. If it's claimed to go back beyond grandma (assuming today's singer really learned it from her), and there's no documentary evidence (and there almost never is), it's pretty untrustworthy.

It's just too easy for people to assume that songs, stories, sayings, and so on are much older than they are.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:35 PM

I fully agree with you, Jonathan. Bell Robertson made such claims to Greig when some of her ballads obviously derived from print.

I can only find one in Child, on p509 of Vol 3, 18sts from a Virginian nurse-maid.

Again this should have existed in America from the 17th century since it has been in popular print since then and from the 18thc in many published collections.

The 31 versions in Sharp's FSSA and the 12 versions in Flanders should keep you busy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM

Riche - I make it 5 US+Canadian from Child (if you count those collected in the US, despite being learned elsewhere):

Notes to 73A give 4 in appendix:

f . From Miss Clara Mackay, Woodstock, New Brunswick, 1881, derived from her great grandmother. The title is ' Lord Thomas.'

g. Recited to me by Ellen Healy, 1881, learned hy her of a young girl living near Killarney, Ireland, about 1867.


h An Irish version, recited by Ellen Daily Taunton, Massachusetts.

i. Communicated by Mr W. W. Newell, as recited by an Irish maid-servant in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Additions and Corrections Vol3
Still another,from the singing of a Virginian nurse-maid (helped out by her mother), was communicated by Mr W. H. Babcock to the Folk-Lore Journal, VII, 33, 1889, and may be repeated here, both because it is American and also because of its amusing perversions.



As Steve says you'll be busy: the Roud Index returns 542 entries for Roud#:4, Place:USA!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:00 PM

Just tried 6 times to post. Oh dear!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:19 PM

"Only academic types pay much attention to just which forebear sang a song."
Sorry to interrupt here - but that is not necessarily the case - I wonder if there is any documented evidence to back up this statement?
I hate repeating this as often as I do, but one of the greatest voids in our understanding of the song traditions is the fact that, with a tiny number of exceptions we have no idea of what our traditional singers knew or thought about their songs simply because hardly anybody bothered to ask them, assuming that all they had to offer was the songs.
Phillips Barry summed up perfectly the contemptuous attitude to the knowledge carried by our tradititionl singers when he wrote:
"Memory, not invention is the function of the folk".
The question of print and oral/aural learning is a complex one.
Because singers were able to read didn't necessarily mean that they learned songs from print - some of them certainly didn't, with the possible exception of adding verses to what they already had - reading was quite often regarded as "only for the schoolroom".
In Ireland, one of the greatest sources for ballads over the last half century or so has been from the Travellers who, while they sold the ballad sheets, never learned any of their songs from print. They didn't read themselves and their mainly pariah status meant they had virtually no access to the printed word whatsoever - end result - The Maid and the Palmer, Lamkin, Young Hunting, Lord Randall, Devil and the Farmer's Wife, Lord Thomas and The Brown Girl, Famous Flower of Serving Men, Fair Margeret and Sweet William (Ch 253)...... and a whole host of others. In many cases, particularly the first and the last on this list, Traveller versions are the only Irish versions of many of these. 30/40 years ago, before the idea of reading was even broached with the Travelling community, you couldn't throw a stone without hitting a Traveller singer who sang The Outlandish Knight or Captain Wedderburn's Courtship.
Please do not jump to any conclusions about literacy without examining all the evidence and don't adapt shaky or non-existant evidence to fit conceptions that may have no basis in fact.
Travellers we met and interviewed made it quite clear that their grasp of literacy was virtually non-existant. One in particular summed up their relationship with reading by describing how he and his mother went to local printers to get their ballads printed by having to recite the words (mainly remembered from the family repertoire) over the counter to the printer. He told us that the oldest song in his repertoire was The Blind Beggar (of Bethnal Green) - he was almost certainly right.
As far as settled singers were concerned, Norfolk singer Walter Pardon filled tapes with information of who sang what in his family - certainly back as far as great grandparents.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:31 AM

"If it's claimed to go back beyond grandma (assuming today's singer really learned it from her)..." [my italics]

So are we to presume that singers' own testimony about where they learned their songs is now to be regarded, by default, with suspicion? Obviously we know a lot more now about the role of print in propagating these songs, but just about every singer who was ever asked the question has stated that they learned the bulk of their songs from family members. Why would they choose to fib, or be somehow mistaken, about having learned a song from grandma? There's a big danger in ignoring such direct evidence as we have, just because it might be inconvenient for prevailing orthodoxy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 10:45 AM

Jim, Brian, I didn't expect my dashed-off remarks to be scrutinized so closely.

> Only academic types pay much attention to just which forebear sang a song.

What I mean to say is that we see that scholars (especially since Child) want to trace songs or song-versions historically and accurately and as far back as possible. We do not know what proportion of "source singers" share this impractical, inessential, and even pedantic concern. What most appear to be interested in is the song and its associations.

And even those who are historically-minded may not *know* just how long a song (and in what version) has been in their family. If they believe a song to be old, it is easy to assert (not deceptively but innocently) that it's been in the family for a hundred or two hundred years. That's not lying, it's taking something for granted.

> If it's claimed to go back beyond grandma (assuming today's singer really learned it from her), and there's no documentary evidence (and there almost never is), it's pretty untrustworthy.

By "assuming" and "really," I simply meant "when this is really known to be the case." A singer's testimony that grandma sang the song to him directly is ordinarily to be accepted.

I don't suspect that singers are liars, but one can learn a song from mom and easily assume that she learned it from grandma when actually she didn't.

> with a tiny number of exceptions we have no idea of what our traditional singers knew or thought about their songs simply because hardly anybody bothered to ask them.

True.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:25 PM

Forgive me for obsessive scrutiny, Lighter, but's it's an interesting point of discussion.

"We do not know what proportion of "source singers" share this impractical, inessential, and even pedantic concern. What most appear to be interested in is the song and its associations...
And even those who are historically-minded may not *know* just how long a song (and in what version) has been in their family. If they believe a song to be old, it is easy to assert (not deceptively but innocently) that it's been in the family for a hundred or two hundred years."


My guess (given that many singers were not asked for their opinions) would be that the family associations were possibily as important as the content of the songs. The Coppers are an obvious - if arguably exceptional - example, but here is Carrie Grover, writing of her Nova Scotia family's singing tradition:

"My songs come from many sources. About 1811 my great-grandfather, William Hutchinson, was given a grant of land by the government on which he was required to build a public house half way between the towns of Windsor and Chester in Nova Scotia. Here my grandmother spent her childhood and girlhood and learned many songs from hearing them sung. She could even sing a bit in Indian and dance to her singing. Her mother, who came from England as a child, I believe, died when grandmother was twelve years old. Grandmother learned several old songs from her...

Of my father's side of the family I know very little beyond the fact that his grandfather, John Davis, came from Glenmorganshire [sic], Wales, and his mother from England. My great-grandfather Davis brought twenty-three of the Robin Hood ballads from Wales, three of which my grandmother remembered and taught to father."


Ms Grover's claim of songs having been sung by four generations of her family is not based on vague notion, but on specific information from her two grandmothers. Singers with sufficient historical interest to have written accounts conveying this degree of detail are unusual, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that songs were often passed on down the generations along with similar background information. I wonder how many of us can remember rhymes or sayings imparted to us by a parent, accompanied by: "My grandmother used to say / sing that"?

Returning, slightly obliquely, to the subject under discussion, Maggie Hammons was dismissive of collectors' insistence that her ballads like 'Young Hunting' and 'Hind Horn' originated in Britain, preferring to stress the family tradition behind her repertoire.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:48 PM

> with a tiny number of exceptions we have no idea of what our traditional singers knew or thought about their songs simply because hardly anybody bothered to ask them.

Okay generally true, but I'm going to question 'tiny' and 'bothered'.
Quite a few collectors, starting with what is generally considered the first revival, did go to some lengths to talk to particular singers about their sources. Those who didn't were too busy recording the songs, unfunded in most cases, and boy aren't we glad they did this. I'm sure had the collectors had the time they would have loved to have done this, so I think 'bothered' is the wrong word here.

Then there's the issue of the verity of the singers' statements about their sources, and here I would say it would be prudent to take each case separately and look at the possibilities and probabilities. As a collector I know how much the singers want to please and how defective memories can be. As I said earlier the overwhelming evidence is that the majority of singers learnt these songs in their youth and were being recorded in their final few years. Singers with only a few songs would easily recall where they got them but I would be more doubtful of those singers with large repertoires who had learnt them from several sources, print included, but maybe that's just me!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:30 PM

> My guess (given that many singers were not asked for their opinions) would be that the family associations were possibly as important as the content of the songs.

Possibly, of course. But to which singers?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 05:08 PM

"the overwhelming evidence...."
What "overwhelming evidence" and wheer is it to be found Steve?
Our experience has been, particularly with the large repertoire singers, that singers learned songs out of interest and never stopped learning them, even when they had no audiences
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 06:48 AM

"did go to some lengths to talk to particular singers about their sources"
My point was Steve:
"one of the greatest voids in our understanding of the song traditions is the fact that, with a tiny number of exceptions we have no idea of what our traditional singers knew or thought about their songs simply because hardly anybody bothered to ask them, assuming that all they had to offer was the songs."
Sources was usually one of the standard questions - "where did you get that?" It bothered me more than a little, as it obviously did Brian, that even this basic piece of information should be treated with suspicion - "unless there's a contemporaneous record."
Not trying to over-stress this Lighter; I take your point about your remarks being "dashed off", but it does help to highlight the practice of treating the singers as sources of songs only, and disregarding anything else they might have to say.
For me, rather than tilting at unmoveble (or unprovable) windmills of "original versions", one of the greatest contributions to the significance and function of our traditional songs would be to gather together every statement that has been made by a traditional singer on how they feel and what they know of their songs - then we might have a basis of an understanding for our traditional songs "with nowt taken out" as the man in the bread advert said.
For those interested in the possible origins of our ballads, I would heartily recommend David C Fowler's 'The Literary History of the Popular Ballad", an extremely readable work, painstakingly researched, by a writer who is, refreshingly, not afraid to admit that he doesn't know, when he doesn't.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:58 AM

"the overwhelming evidence is that the majority of singers learnt these songs in their youth and were being recorded in their final few years. Singers with only a few songs would easily recall where they got them but I would be more doubtful of those singers with large repertoires who had learnt them from several sources, print included..."

Steve, I respect your experience as a collector, but I still don't buy the idea that those singers were forgetful old dodderers who had only a vague notion of where they got their songs. Childhood memories are very persistent in elderly people, even those suffering from dementia. Cyril Poacher, for one, was quite definite about precisely which songs he'd learned from his grandfather. I take the point that information regarding the generation above the grandparents' is likely to be second-hand and possibly less reliable, but in general the singers themselves are the best and often the only witnesses we have. Some - like the Mr. Hill of Tetford, Lincs., that Fred Hamer recorded - provided accounts of buying, and learning from, broadsides. But most of the singers' biographies that I've read stress the importance of family first, and peers or workmates second, as sources for repertoire. I think those accounts need to be taken seriously.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 01:19 PM

Brian, Jim,
I'm not suggesting they were suffering from dementia. All I'm saying is that in the majority of cases there was a significant gap between them learning the songs and them being recorded by collectors. I'm well aware of the power of childhood memories in older people being stronger than short-term memory, but those memories are often clouded by wishful thinking and they can be easily confused.

Jim, with all due respect, your own experiences seem to have been mainly among peop[le who were still actively involved with singing the songs to an audience. Unfortunately for the rest of us and for the majority of those collectors over the previous 3 centuries they were being taken down from the aged who had ceased to have an audience for some time.

However, I am interested in the book you suggest and will try to check it out. Thanks.

Having said it once I will repeat it. All of the collectors I'm sure would have dearly loved to have sat down with every singer and written dowen their life story. If they had have done this we'd have about a hundredth of the volume of songs we now have access to!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 01:42 PM

Jim, Brian, Jonathan,

I'm aware that once again we are hijacking someone else's thread!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 02:20 PM

Yes, indeed - we should call a truce now.

I can't let 'Young Hunting' pass by without mentioning that Frank Proffitt's 'Song of a Lost Hunter' (which he'd heard as a boy and was having difficulty remembering) is as neat an example of an individual re-composing a ballad as I can think of.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 02:46 PM

Agreed about hi-jack - but just to make things clear about the singers we recorded; in 1973 the Travellers had a living tradition which died a sudden death (18 months) with the advent of portable televisions.
The Clare singers had lost their audiences decades before and, apart from Tom Lenihan (70+ when we met him), sang a tiny handfull of his songs very occasionally at local functions; it turned out he had around 200 songs in all. The rest were singing for the first time in many, any years, some were not recognised as singers within their communities.
Apart from one song, Walter Pardon had never sung in public, but had nurtured and gradually re-built has family's repertoire, which is the one he sang when he was 'discovered' by the revival.
Across the board singing activity, all-in-all.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:44 AM

Hi,

I've put most of the songs in my collection for No. 73 Lord Thomas/Bown Girl. Please to add (post lyrics) if you have additional versions. Here's the list:

Lord Thomas and Fair Elendar- Stone (Kansas) 1897
The Brown Girl- Pettit (KY) pre1907 Kittredge
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender- Harmon (TN) 1928
Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor- Songster- c. 1840s
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellen- (VA) 1898 Brown A
Fair Ellender and the Brown Girl- Fish (NC) 1913
Fair Ellender- Caldwell (NC) 1913 Perrow
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender- Holder (NC) 1914
Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor- Greer (NC) 1915
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Blacknall (NC) c.1812
Lord Thomas- Freeman (Ark.) 1941 Randolph J
The Brown Girl- (VA) 1889 Babcock- Child
The Brown Girl- Urice (WV) 1816 Cox A
Fair Ellender & the Brown Girl- Bronley (WV) 1916 Cox B
Fair Elander & the Brown Girl- McCourt (WV) 1916 Cox C
Fair Ellender- Mrs. Boggs (WV) 1917 Cox D
Lord Thomas- Bennett (WV) 1916 Cox E
Lord Thomas- Miller (WV) 1916 Cox F
Fair Ellenger- McAtee (WV) 1917 Cox G
The Brown Girl- Bosely (WV) 1917 Cox H
Lord Thomas- Ramenes (Ark.) 1914 Cox I
Lord Thomas- Mackay (New Brunswick) 1881 Child D f.
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellendry- House NC 1916 Sharp A
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Moore Ga 1909 Sharp B
Little Eleanor- M. E. B. (Vt.) 1905 Barry
Lord Thomas- Williams (Mo.) pre1906 Belden A
Lord Thomas- Vaughan (Mo.) pre1906 Belden B
Lord Thomas- Simmons (Ark.) pre1906 Belden C
The Brown Girl- Fore (Mo.) pre1906 Belden D
The Brown Girl- Creed (Illinois) pre1939 Neely
Lord Thomas & Fair Alander- Lowrimore (CA) 1946
Lord Thomas- Beeman (Michigan) 1936 Gardner A
Lord Thomas- Loughlin (Michigan) 1878 Gardner B
Lord Thomas- W. H. E. (VA) 1950 Davis JOAFL
Lord Thomas And Fair Ellen- Aveline (Ind.) 1942
The Brown Girl- Barnett (Miss.) 1926 Hudson
Lord Thomas- Underhill (Ind.) 1936 Brewster A
The Brown Girl- Bryant (Indiana) 1937 Brewster B
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Sullivan (IN) 1935 Brewster C
Lord Thomas's Wedding- Lenington (IN) 1935 Brewster D
Fair Eleanor- McDonald (Indiana) 1935 Brewster E
The Brown Girl- Davis (Indiana) 1935 Brewster F
Lord Thomas- Johnson (Indiana) 1935 Brewster G
The Brown Girl- McAllister (Indiana) 1935 Brewster H
Lord Thomas & Fair Elenor- Mitchell (VA) 1920 Davis A
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Nelson VA 1924 Davis B
The Brown Girl- Welch (WV) 1957 Musick A
The Brown Girl- Keener (WV) 1957 Musick B
The Brown Girl- Ammons (WV) 1957 Musick C
The Brown Girl- Eddy (WV) 1957 Musick D
Lord Thomas- Grimm (Nebraska) 1913 Pound
The Brown Girl- Pierce (SC-NC) pre1927 Reed Smith
The Brown Girl- Pierce (SC-NC) pre1927 Sandburg
Fair Eleanor and Lord Thomas- Wallin (NC) 1983
Lord Thomas & Fair Elinor- Compton SC 1913 Smith A
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Simons SC 1928 Smith B
Lord Thomas & Fa'r Elinor- Means SC 1899 Smith D
The Brown Girl- Clement (SC) 1913 Smith E
Lord Thomas- Walters (Newfoundland) 1929
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Hart VA 1921 Davis C
Fair Ellen- Sears (VA) 1916 Davis D Lord
Thomas & Fair Ellender- Ritchie KY 1961 Rec.
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellinor- McNab (Halifax) pre1932
The Brown Bride- Wyman (KY) pre1919
The Brown Girl- Yowell (VA) 1914 Davis E
The Three Lovers- Wiley (VA) Davis F
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Via (VA) 1920 Davis G
Lord Thomas- Eubank (VA) 1914 Davis H
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Doss VA 1921 Davis I
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Rodes (VA) 1917 Davis J
The Brown Girl- Boyd (VA) 1916 Davis K
The Brown Girl- Maxie (VA) 1914 Davis L
Lord Thomas- Stone (VA) 1914 Davis M
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Mullens (VA) 1921 Davis N
Lord Thomas- Grainger (VA) 1913 Davis O
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellinor- Cover VA 1913 Davis P
The Brown Girl- Seoane (VA) 1914 Davis Q
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- (Ga) 1933 Niles B
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender- Smith NC 1936 Niles A
Lord Thomas- Andrus (Schenectady NY) 1844
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Brown (KY) 1930s Niles C
Thomas and Ellen- Turner (NC) c.1930s Niles D
The Brown Girl- Horton Barker (VA) 1939 Halpert
Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor- Kennison (VT) 1930
Lord Thomas- Gentry/Long (NC) 1916 Sharp E
Lord Thomas- Parsons (TN) 1917 Sharp L
Lord Thomas- Snipes (NC) 1918 Sharp B b
Lord Thomas- Chrisom (NC) 1918 Sharp C c
Lord Thomas- Maud Long (NC) 1946 Moser Rec.
Lord Thomas- McGill (KY) pre1917 McGill
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellinor- Decker (NL) 1959
The Brown Girl- Collier (VA) pre1936 Scarborough A
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Gibson (VA) 1936 Scar B
Lord Thomas- Morris (VA) pre1936 Scarborough C
Lord Thomas- Owens (VA) pre1936 Scarborough D
Fair Ellender- Lambert (VA) pre1936 Scarborough E
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellen- Ports (OH) 1939 Eddy A
Lord Thomas- Stork (OH) 1939 Eddy B
Lord Thomas- Chapel (OH) 1939 Eddy C
The Brown Girl- Mace (OH) 1939 Eddy D
The Brown Girl- Lozier (KY) pre1973 Recording
The Brown Girl- McDonald (Arkansas) 1958 Hunter
The Brown Girl- McCord (Mo.) 1958 Hunter
Lord Thomas- Brewer (Ark.) 1958 Hunter
The Brown Girl- Kisner (Ark.) 1960 Hunter
Fair Annalee- Driftwood (Ark.) 1969 Hunter Rec.
The Brown Girl- Daugherty (Ark.) 1958 Wolfe Collection
Lord Thomas- McMillon (NC) 1985 Recording
Lord Thomas- Enzor (KY) 1957 Roberts
Fair Ellender- Proffitt (NC) 1959 Warner
Lord Thomas- Tilllett (NC) 1941 Warner
The Brown Girl- Bethel (Mo.) 1930 Randolph A
Lord Thomas & the Brown Girl- (Mo.) 1928 Randolph B
Brown Girl- Bullard (Mo.) 1927 Randolph C
Fair Ellender- Baber (Mo.) 1924 Randolph D
The Brown Girl- Morris (Mo.) 1935 Randolph E
The Brown Girl- Hastings (Ark.) 1941 Randolph F
The Brown Girl- Reba (Mo.) 1941 Randolph G
The Brown Girl- Short (Mo.) 1941 Randolph H
The Brown Girl- McCord (Mo.) c.1900 Randolph I
Lord Thomas- Freeman (Mo.) 1941 Randolph J

You can view individual versions here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-73-lord-thomas--fair-annet.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:50 AM

Hi,

I found one version published in the US in 1939, no source given, and two from the 1840s (one is a broadside from Forget-Me-Not Songster). Several versions can be traced through family accounts earlier- one to c. 1716 (Cox).

Any other early US or Canadian versions?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 03:09 PM

Flanders gives 12 versions from Vt, Me and NY and some interesting points of comparison in the intro, some referring to Belden's study.
Mainly re certain stanzas not present in American versions.

Are you using the Roud Index to identify texts you haven't got access to?

Are you also keeping a weather eye on Canadian versions? I have occasionally noted similarities between some Me and Ny ballads and Nova Scotia and other Maritimes. Cazden/Catskills is good for this info, but surprisingly they don't have a version of 73.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:56 AM

Hi,

Don't have Flanders.

I am using the Roud Index sometimes. I have a number of versions not found in the index. I'm missing a number of them- of course.

Trying to look at Canadian (Peacock) (Fowke)

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:16 AM

Richie,
Does this mean you've nearly got them, or do you want us to supply copies?

I have Peacock and some of Fowke's books.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:54 AM

Hi,

Steve, I don't have Fowke's version. If you have any versions I'm missing please post. I need to get more books which I will soon. Having some financial problems.

Here's Dew Henson's 1938 version of Child 74. Can anyone hear the second line? I've made a rough transcription. Any corrections? Listen here:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/lady-margaret--sweet-william--henson-ky-1938-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM

Richie

I've had a listen and posted my corrections below. Drops in v2 I'm not completely sure of, but I think that's what it is. v7 l2 I'm not sure whether the word should be lint rather than linen. (A couple of words were just omitted in the transcript and you have one those instead of them; I've included them below).

Mick



LADY MARGARET AND SWEET WILLIAM

One morning, one morning, one morning in May,
There rose a grievous alarm
Sweet William, he said, he was pestered in his head
By the dream he had dreamt last night.

He dreamed---,
That his bed was swilted by drops
And his bride was all swimming in blood.

He called to his horses all,
And he counted one, two, three,
At the last of them all he called for his bride,
Liddy Marget may I go and see.

He rode till he came to Liddy Marget's gate,
And he tingled on the ring,
No one was so ready as Liddy Marget's brother,
To rise and bid him come in.

"Is she in the kitchen," said he,
"Or is she in the hall?
Or is she in that far back room,
Among the ladies all?"

"She's neither in the kitchen," said he,
"Nor she's neither in the hall.
But there she lies in her cold, cold coffin
A- sitting up agin the wall."

"Unfold, unfold that linen white sheet
That's made of linen (lint?) so fine
And let me kiss them clay cold lips
For often they kissed mine."

He first kissed her rosy red cheeks,
And then he kissed her chin;
And then he kissed them clay-cold lips
Which 'ffected his heart within.

They buried Liddy Marget in a church graveyard
Sweet William by her side.
And from her breast sprung a merry red rose,
And from his knees a green briar.

They growed, they growed to a top of a tower,
And they could not grow any higher.
They linked and they locked in a true-loves knot,
A red rose and a green briar.



Source: Daw Henson on Kentucky Mountain Music, 1938


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:27 AM

Richie
I have 7 of Fowke's books but can't find any versions of 73. Do you know if it has been published and if so where?

Have you got the version and fragment in Peacock yet? The bindings on Peacock make it hard to scan but I could type it.

If you PM your email I will scan the versions of 73 in Flanders.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:03 PM

Hi,

Thanks Mick for sorting out Hensen's version, I just had a quick listen. Love the guitar- it sounds like my version of Willie Moore to me, tho I haven't tried playing it yet.

Steve, I'll put my email here. If anyoen want to eamil me that's fine: Richiematt@aol.com

Thanks for the help,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:13 PM

Richie

I was out walking the dog after listening to the recording and without thinking about it I found I was singing bits of Willie Moore as I was walking along!.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:36 AM

Hi,

Here's what I have so far for Child 74 US Versions:

Sweet William- Herskille (WV) pre1917 Cox A
Sweet William- (KY) 1910 Combs JOAFL
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Williams (Mo.) 1906
William and Margaret- Zehner (Illinois) pre1939 Nealy
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Henson (KY) 1938
Lady Margaret- Brown (WV) c.1875 Cox B
Lydia Margaret- Neff (Mo.) 1914 Kittredge JOAFL
Sweet William and Lady Margery- (KY) 1916 Wyman
Sweet William- (KY) 1917 McGill
Sweet William- Jones (WV) c.1871 Cox C
Lady Margaret's Ghost- Johnson (WV) 1916 Cox D
Lady Margaret- McAtee (WV) 1917 Cox E
Lady Margaret- McKinney (WV) 1919 Cox F
Sweet William- Ayers (WV) pre1918 Cox G
Sweet William- Stockton (TN) 1916 Sharp A
Lady Margret- Hensley (KY) 1910 Sharp B
Lady Margaret & King William- Davis (VT) 1939
Prince William & Lady Margaret- Haskins (MA) 1934
Sweet William- Bennett (NC) 1918 Sharp P
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Ritchie (KY) 1961
Lady Marget- Fish (NC) pre1913 Brown/Perrow
Lady Margaret- Perry (NC) c.1940 Brown B
Sweet Willie- Brown (NC) c.1920 Brown C
Little Margaret- Lunsford (NC) 1953 Recording
Sweet William- Martin (VA) 1917 Davis A
Lady Margot- Holcolm (KY) 1932 Niles A
Lady Margot- Mullens (KY) 1933 Niles B
Little Margaret- Lofgren/Lunsford 1997
Little Margaret- Ramsey (NC) 1957 Recording
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Roberts (NC) 1943
Sweet William- Smith (IN) 1935 Brewster A
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Bryant (IN) 1935
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Johnson (IN) 1935
Lady Margaret- Lasher (IN) 1935 Brewster D
Sweet William- Shriver (IL) 1935 Brewster E
Lady Marget- Sands (NC) 1916 Sharp C
Lady Margret- Hensley (NC) 1916 Sharp D
Lady Margaret- Morris (VA) pre1936 Scarborough
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Goon (OH) c.1874 Eddy
Pretty Polly & Sweet William- Topper (OH) pre1939
Lydia Marget- Dove (VA) 1914 Davis B
Sweet William- Mitchell (KY) 1956 Roberts
Lady Margaret- Huddleston (Ark.) c.1972 Wolfe Coll
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Kennison (VT) 1930
Lady Margaret- Riddle (Ark.) c.1970 Wolfe Collection
Lady Margret- Hawkins (Ark.) 1962 Wolfe Coll.
Lady Margaret- Sutton (AR) 1952 Wolfe Coll.
Lady Margret- Brewer- (Ark.) 1958 Max Hunter
Lady Marg'ret- Sutton (NC) c.1920s Brown D
Sweet William- Walker (NC) 1936 Brown G
Lady Margret & Sweet William- Maxie (VA) 1914
Sweet William- Bucher (VA) 1914 Davis D   
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Clark (VA) 1920
Lady Margret- Armistead (VA) 1915 Davis G
Lady Margaret- Lynch (VA) 1916 Davis H
Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Dickson (VA) 1920
Fair Margaret- Seoane (VA) 1914 Brown L
Lady Margret- Hogan (VA) 1914 Davis M
Sweet William's Bride- Rodes (VA) 1917 Davis N
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Armstrong (VA) 1922
Lady Margret- Morris (Mo.) 1962 Max Hunter
Lady Marget- Gilbert (Ark.) 1965 Max Hunter
Lady Margret- Martin (Kansas) c.1970 Max Hunter
Lady Margret- Majors (Kansas) c.1963 Max Hunter

You can look at individual versions here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-74-fair-margaret--s-will.aspx

Anyone have addition versions? Please post lyrics if you do,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:23 PM

Flanders=9

Just a thought, do you have Bronson?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 12:13 AM

No, need to get Bronson, hopefully I can afford to get books soon and a scanner.

I need to get several other books, some of them are a bit expensive- I plan on acquiring a few more.

Thanks for the Flanders,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 10:46 AM

Bronson of course should contain all of the American versions extant prior to the 1950s.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM

Bronson should have the American versions available with their tunes. He explicitly rejects anything from John Jacob Niles.

Bronson doesn't includes tuneless texts.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM

Ah yes,
I should have mentioned that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:22 AM

Hi,

Thanks to Steve I've added Flanders A-I plus Randolph and am finished with my texts /music of Child 74 for now:


Sweet William & Lady Margaret- Smith (NM) 1917 Flanders B
Lady Marget- Keister (VA) 1913 Davis F
King William & Lady Margaret- Greene (VT) 1941 Flanders
Lady Margaret & Sweet William- Smith (VT) c.1882 Flanders
Fair Margaret- Ashford (VT) 1937 Flanders I
Lady Marg'ret- Baber (Mo.) 1922 Randolph A
Lydia Margaret- Lane (Mo.) 1930 Randolph B
Pretty Polly- Kinnaird (Mo.) 1934 Randolph C
Lady Marget- Short (Mo.) 1941 Randolph D

There are some newer recordings but most are not traditional,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 07:09 PM

Hi,

I'm now on Lord Lovel. My question is concerning US broadsides. The broadside found at American Memory says:

Lord Lovel. J. Andrews, Printer, 38 Chatham St. N. Y. [n. d.]

Is there a way to find out approximately when it was printed? Here's a view:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-75-lord-lovel.aspx

There are several parody versions from the US in the 1860s when it was popular.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 07:56 PM

Richie - according to this document: Studying 19th Century Popular Song (pdf), "John Andrews opened a broadsheet printing shop on Chatham Street in New York, NY, in 1853".

Steve generally knows a lot about printers (I don't know how much about US ones), so he may be able to give you better information.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:21 PM

A book on New York mayors at google books suggest it may have been in 1854 that he bought a 4-storey house there.

There's also an interesting song here: lee's songbook called:

DEAD RABBITS' FIGHT WITH THE BOWERY BOYS
WORDS BY SAUGERTIES BARD
To the tune of JORDAN IS A HARD ROAD TO TRAVEL
1857.

It has the last verse:

  If you want all the good songs, 38 Chatham Street,
  There a printer lives, you may rely on;
  Lay in a large stock and supply all your friends,
  And they'll sing them on the other side of Jordan.



Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:25 PM

And finally (I hope) this entry at Johns Hopkins Libraries: I'm Off To California catalogue entry, states that: "The printer John Andrews was located at 38 Chatham Street in New York from 1853 to 1859."


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:26 AM

Hi,

TY Mick. Here's the text from c. 1853:

LORD LOVEL

Lord Lovel stood at his castle gate,
Combing his milk-white steed,
When up came Lady Nancy Bell,
To wish her lover good speed, speed, speed,
Wishing her lover good speed.

"Where are you going. Lord Lovel?" she said,
"Oh, where are you going?" said she;
"I am going, my Lady Nancy Bell,
Strange countries for to see, see, see."
Strange countries, &c.

"When will you be back, Lord Lovel?" said she,
"Oh, when will you be back?" said she;
"In a year or two, or three at most,
I'll return to my fair Nancy-cy-cy."
I'll return, &c.

But he had not been gone a year and a day,
Strange countries for to see,
When languishing thoughts came into his head,
Lady Nancy Bell he would go see, see, see.
Lady Nancy, &c.

So he rode and he rode on his milk-white horse,
Till he came to London town,
And then he heard St. Pancras bells
And the people all mourning round, round, round,
And the people &c.

"Oh, what is the matter?" Lord Lovel said,
"Oh what is the matter?" said he;
"A Lord's Lady is dead." the woman replied,
"And some call her Lady Nancy-cy-cy."
And some, &c.

So he ordered the grave to be opened wide,
And the shroud to be turned down,
And there he kissed her clay-cold lips
Till the tears came trickling down, down, down.
Till the tears, &c.

Lady Nancy died as it might be to-day,
Lord Lovel he died as to-morrow.
Lady Nancy she died out of pure grief,
Lord Lovel he died out of sorrow, sorrow, sorrow.
Lord Lovel he died, &c.

Lady Nancy was laid in St. Pancras church,
Lord Lovel was laid in the choir:
And out of her bosom there grew a red rose,
And out of her lover's a brier, rier, rier.
And out of, &c.

It grew, and it grew to the Church steeple top,
And then it could grow no higher,
So there entwined in a true lover's knot,
For all true-lovers to admire, rire, rire.
For all, &c.

This is essentially the same text as the broadside found in Child H, a London broadside of 1846, in Dixon's Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs of the Peasantry of England, p. 78.

Curiously, the same text was found in Missouri dated 1812 which leads me to believe that the broadside version was around much earlier. Another version dating back c. 1776 is found as Brown E.

Is there an earlier English version?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 08:12 AM

Child A: Percy Papers, communicated by the Rev.P.Parsons, of Wye from singing; May 22, 1770, and April 19, 1775. (Or are you asking about broadsides?)

From quick look at Roud it looks as if most of the sources are C19.


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 02:17 PM

Surely the c1853 text above is a burlesque!

A quick glance at all the British versions I have could all be after 1850 and could all be based on the popular burlesques which were widely printed as sheet music. I have several different issues c1840s 1850s of sheet music.

However I have a reference in Welsh and Tillinghast to a Glasgow printed version which could be older. This would be at Harvard.

There's an Andrews NY version on AMMEM and a Wrigley, NY version online. De Marsan printed a parody and there's a no imprint version of this on the AMMEM site with the Lord Lovell title.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 03 May 12 - 10:07 PM

Looks like the earliest US published version of Lord Lovel is 1832 in The New England Songster, Portsmouth, NH, Nathaniel March and Co., pp. 86-88. The next version, found in Hadaway's Select Songster (1840), can be viewed online.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 12 - 07:52 AM

Hi,

I've moved on to Child 76; Lass of Roch Royal. The number of authentic tradtional US and Canadian versions seems small- at least the versions that tell the story of Lord (Love) Gregory and the Lass.

Jean Ritchie's version seems to be a rewrite of the supplimental version found in Child. Any information on that one?

Carey Woofter's versions seems to be a rewrite of Child D. Anyone know about that one? (Found in Combs)

The Cox version seems to be based on a print version.

What are the versions? Georgie Jeems; Fowke's; Niles B;

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 12 - 08:58 AM

Here's Ritchie's version:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/fair-annie-of-lochroyan--ritchie-ky-1961-recording.aspx

Woofter's: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/sweet-annie-of-roch-royal--wv-1924-woofter.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 May 12 - 02:59 PM

Okay Richie,
If you want to give us a list of the books you've got, I'll see what else I have.
A quick glance at my indexes tells me Sandberg gives 4 versions, likewise Mellenger Henry, Davies lists 30!! Gainer 9, the Moores 2, Owen 1, Morris 1, Flanders just a couple of fragments, Randolph some, Wolf some and probably others if I looked closer. Bronson should have those with tunes.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 06 May 12 - 05:03 PM

Hi,

I have Sandburg, Davis, Henry, Sharp, Randolph. Don't have Morris or Gainer.

I'm intersted in identifying the ballad in the US and Canada not just songs with the floating "Who Will Shoe Your Feet?" floating verses.

None of Davis's 30 versions qualify. Need at least some part of the ballad story.

TY Steve,

Ricihie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:36 AM

Apologies, Richie, it's not Gainer I've got, it's Brewster with the 9 versions which I'll check.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:40 AM

Brewster no good to you. It's also all 'who will shoe'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:58 AM

Morris has some of the ballad stanzas but like one of the Brewster versions is crossed with 'Turtle Dove' at p278.

The Lonesome Turtle-Dove, from Mr Lowery Davis, Gainesville, who learned it from the singing of his mother in Alabama.

As i was riding out one cold winter night,
A-drinking of sweet wine,
I went a-courting of that pretty little girl
That stole this heasrt of mine.

She's like one pink, one pink or rose,
That blooms in the month of June;
She's like one bright new instrument
That's never out of tune. (Wow! Love it!)

'I'm going away my own true love;
I'm going away for a while;
I'm going away but I'm coming back again,
Though it be ten thousand-mile.'

'Oh stay with me, my own true love,
Oh stay with me for a while;
Oh stay with me till the rocks all melt,
And the rolling sea runs dry.'

'And if I should prove false to you,
And I should never return;
The fire will freeze in a cold cake of ice,
And the rolling sea will burn.'

'Oh who will shoe my feet, my love,
And who will glove my hand,
And who will kiss my sweet ruby lips,
While you're in a foreign land?'

'Your father will shoe your feet, my love,
Your mother will glove your hand;
Your friends will kiss your sweet ruby lips,
While I'm in a foreign land.'

Her mother saw me in the door;
She rung her hands and cried,
'Oh oh you've come too late,
For now she's dead and gone.'

'Oh is she not in the dining room,
Or is she not in the hall,
Or is she not in the parlor room
Among those ladies all?'

'She's neither in the dining room,
And neither in the hall,
But yonder she lies in her cold cloudy coffin,
With her pale face to the wall.'

'Unfold, unfold those winding sheets;
Unfold those sheets so fine,
And let me kiss those sweet ruby lips,
As oft as she's kissed mine.'

'Oh don't you hear that lonesome turtledove,
That flies from pine to pine;
It's mourning the loss of its own true love,
And why not me for mine?'

Is this any good to you?
Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 May 12 - 01:24 PM

Hi,

Interesting version Steve. The last part except for the final stanza is, of course, 74. Fair Margaret and Sweet William.

The beginning is "A-Roving" and "Blackest Crow" "True Lover's Farewell" songs.

I don't think this tells the ballad of 76. Lass of Roch Royal. One verse gets close- the one about the mother and her dying.

TY

I'll use it tho,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 May 12 - 11:28 PM

Hi,

I'm lost in the English/Scottish Child versions of No. 76 now, too many details. For example, Child B has several text mistakes:

According to Jamieson the "Tabean birben kame" in stanza 2 & 4 must denote, "an ivory comb made at Tabia." If you check Herd's original you will see that in the Child text "birben" is mispelled as "brirben."

The Child text in Stanza 5 [2] is also wrong: "It's a' cored oer with pearl" should be "It's a' cover'd oer with pearl."

Details- details.

Comments?

R-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 May 12 - 05:05 AM

Richie
If you look at p225 you'll see Child acknowledges the birben/brirben differences. Presumably what he is saying is in the ms it is 'brirben' and in A&MSS it is 'corrected?' to 'birben'.

If you look in the glossary in vol 5 you'll see Finlay had 'birchen' which of course in Scots would be 'birken'. A handwritten copy could easily mistake 'birken' for 'birben'. The comb to me was obviously made of birch.

As for 'cored', well, nobody's ferpect!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 08 May 12 - 08:03 PM

Hi,

Thanks Steve, for getting that srt8- haha.

I do have a general question regarding broadside The Lass of Ocram c. 1740 (or 1765)and the related versions titled The Lass of Aughrim.

I know The Lass of Aughrim (Child version H) from Mr. G.C. Mahon, of Ann Arbor, Michigan, as sung by a laborer, at Tyrrelspass, West Meath, Ireland, about 1830 is similar to The Lass of Ocram.

Are there other traditional Irish versions titled The Lass of Aughrim or that use those lyrics? I know Joe Heaney's "Lord Gregory" uses the The Lass of Aughrim.

Am I missing the lineage? Waht are the collected versions?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 09 May 12 - 07:34 AM

Here is one of the Irish version of Lass of Ocram:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/lord-gregory---cronin-ireland-1952-ennis.aspx

She pronounces it "Lass of Orms."

LORD GREGORY- Cronin 1952

1. I am a king's daughter that strayed from Cappoquin
In search of Lord Gregory, may God I'll find him
The rain beats at my yellow locks and the dew wets me still
The babe is cold in my arms, Lord Gregory let me in.

2. Lord Gregory is not here, and as full can be seen,
He is gone to bonny Scotland to bring home his new queen.
Leave now those windows and likewise this hall,
For it's deep in the sea you should hide your downfall.

3. Who'll shoe my babe's little feet, who'll put gloves on her hand,
And who'll tie my babe's middle with a long and green band?
Who'll comb my babe's yellow locks with an ivory comb,
And who'll be my babe's father till Lord Gregory comes home?

4. I'll shoe your babe's little feet, I'll put gloves on her hand,
And I'll tie your babe's middle with a long and green band;
I'll comb your babe's yellow locks with an ivory comb,
And I'll be your babe's father till Lord Gregory comes home.

5. Leave now those windows and likewise this hall,
For it's deep in the sea you should hide your downfall.

6. Do you remember, Lord Gregory, that night in Cappoquin,
When we both 'changedp ocket handkerchiefsa, nd that against my will?
For yours was pure linen, love, and mine was coarse cloth,
Yours cost one guinea, love, and mine but one groat.

7. Leave now, etc.

8. Do you remember, Lord Gregory, that night in Cappoquin,
We both 'changed rings off our fingers, and that against my will?
For yours was pure silver, love, and mine was block tin,
Yours cost twelve guineas, love, and mine but one cent.

9. Leave now, etc.

10. Do you remember, Lord Gregory, that night in my father's hal,
When you stole away my fond heart, and that was worse than all?

11. Leave now, etc.

12. My curse on you, mether, and my curse it be sore,
I dreamt the Lass of Orms came rapping to my door.
Lie down, you foolish son, ah, lie down and sleep,
For 'tis long ago her weary locks are waving on the deep.

13. Come saddle me the(m) black horse, the(m) brown or the bay,
Come saddle me the(m) best horse in my stable this day.
I'll range over valleys and o'er mountains alway,
Till I find the Lass of Orms, and I lie by her side.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 14 May 12 - 08:03 AM

What is the source for these lyrics?

Unquiet Grave

Two were the sisters, one the bride,
John was so young and so brave.
The sisters stood silently side by side,
The one betrothed sobbed by his grave.

Cold blows the wind today, my love,
Bringing the clouds that rain.
Oh what can I do or say, my love,
To bring you near me, near me again?

I'll do as much for my true love,
As any young girl may.
I'll come and I'll mourn on his lonely grave,
For fully twelve months and one more day.

Time has gone by, a year, a day,
Lo! And a ghost did rise.
Said he: I beg you to let me stay,
And sleep forever, with my closed eyes.

How can I let you sleep, my love,
Now that your dear voice I hear?
I crave but a kiss from your clay-cold lips,
I long to kiss you, holding you near.

Then spoke the spirit angrily:
This would be harming you,
If you feel the touch of my clay-cold lips,
Your days, oh dear one, they will be through.

The spoke the maid in warm sweet tone:
This I would gladly do,
I so want to join you, my love, my own,
If this be dying, take me to you.

So goes the tale that time has told,
She rests beside him at last,
She's close to her love as in days of old,
She's with her lover, as in the past.

Unquiet grave, be still, be still,
Unquiet soul rest in peace.
Your lov'd ones will join thee, they will, they will,
When once their journey here has to cease.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:05 PM

Sorry if this sounds facetious, but definitely not oral tradition!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 14 May 12 - 11:20 PM

Hi,

TY Steve I agree.

I have a photocopy of the music to the lyrics dated adn copyrighted 1968. It's obviously a rewrite by someone- sounds like a country music version.

There are several online sites that have the lyrics posted.

Anyone else?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 15 May 12 - 08:51 AM

Hi,

Here are the US versions I have so far for child 78:

The Restless Grave- Barnett c.1913 Brown Coll.
The Unquiet Grave- White (Newfoundland) 1929
The Auld Song from Cow Head- Bull (NL) 1929
The Wind Blew Up- Netter (KY) Niles A
The Resurrected Sweetheart- Cottrell (KY) Niles B
The Green Grave- Nolan (KY) 1913 Niles C
The Unquiet Grave- Ritchie (KY) 1961 Recording
The Unquiet Grave- Clevenger (NJ) 1937 Halpert
Shakespeare's Ghost- Grant (NJ) 1938 Halpert
Cold Falling Drops Of Dew- Decker (NL) 1959
The Unquiet Grave- Kinslow (NL) 1959 Peacock A
Cold Blows the Wind- Delorme (NY) 1941 Olney

I don't have lyrics for Cold Blows the Wind (Ballads Migrant NE)
and I'm missing a version from VA from Davis (More Ballads). Anyoen have lyrics for those?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:43 PM

Ballads Migrant

Sung by Lily Delorme of Cadyville, NY
Coll. Olney & Porter Aug 16 1943

Cold Blows the Wind (with tune)

Cold blows the winter's wind, sweetheart,
Cold blows the drops of rain;
I never had but one sweetheart
And in the greenwood she was slain.

I'll do as much for my sweetheart
As any young man may;
I'll sit all on her grave and mourn
A twelvemonth and a day.

A twelvemonth and a day being past,
Her ghost began to speak;
'Why sit upon my grave and mourn
And will not let me sleep?

What do you want of me, sweetheart?
What do you want of me, I pray?'
'One kiss of your clay cold lips
And that is all i want of thee.'

'My lips are colder than clay, sweetheart,
My breat I'm sure is not strong,
If one kiss of my clay cold lips you have,
Your time it won't be long.'

Pretty standard.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:57 PM

MTBV is The Broken-Hearted Lover. Contributed by R E Lee Smith of Palmyra, Va. Sung by his brother, Thomas P Smith and himself. Dec 1912.
Learned from the singing of Mrs. Chaney Smith, who heard it sung by her mother 70 years before.

I wouldn't normally trust the Smith family material but there's nothing too freaky here, except perhaps the language is rather close to early versions in Child, such as 'breath smells earthy strong' and the last verse.

FWIW here it is.

'Wind cold today, my love,
And some wee drops of rain;
I never had but one dear love,
And in the cruel grave she was lain.

'I do as much for my dear love
As any young man will say;
I will set and cry on her grave
For one year and a day.'

The one year and a day being up,
the dead began to speak;
'Oh, who's weeping on my grave
And will not let me sleep?'

'It's me, my love, sets on your grave
And will not let you sleep;
For I crave one kiss from your fair lips
And that is all I ask.'

'You crave one kiss from my cold lips,
But my breath smells earthy strong;
If you have one kiss from my cold lips
Your days will not be long.

'It is down in yonder fields so green,
Love, where we used to walk;
The beautifulles' flower that ever was seen
Is withered now to a stalk.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:52 PM

Without delving very deep I'm struggling to identify any version that definitely predates 1800. There are plenty of broadsides but all identifiable ones are definitely early 19thc and none with Chid's title. Where did that editorial title come from? Broadsides are 'Cold Blows the Wind' or 'The Weeping Lover' or 'The Mournful Lovers'. The no imprint ones with the last title could well be late 18thc.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 01:51 PM

Hi,

I've started Barbara Allen- will I ever finish it? haha

I'd like to find the earliest collected version- I think there was one from 1893 JOAFL.

Certainly there's earlier collected versions, anyone? Perhaps the Stevens-Douglass version would count. Any others?

I have a broadside from 1836. Are the US broadside reprints of earlier English broadsides?

Any US traditional versions with "Martimas time"?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 02:20 PM

Is this the oldest US print version, guessing early 1830s? Can we determine an approximate date?

Sold Wholesale and Retail, by L. Deming corner of Merchant's Row & Market Square, Boston.

BONNY BARBARA ALLAN

IT was in and about the Martimas time,
When the green leaves were a falling,
That Sir John Graeme in the west country
Fell in love with Barbara Allan.

He sent his man down through the town,
To the place where she was dwelling,
O haste, and come to my master dear,
Gin ye be Barbara Allan.

O hooly, hooly rose she up.
To the place where he was lying,
And when she drew the curtain by,
Young man, I think you're dying.

O it's I'm sick, and very sick,
And 'tis a' for Barbara Allan,
O the better for me ye's never be,
Tho' your heart's blood were a spilling.

O dinna ye mind, young man, said she,
When ye was in the tavern a drinking,
That ye made the healths gae round & round
And slighted Barbara Allan.

He turn'd his face unto the wall,
And death was with him dealing;
Adieu, adieu, my dear friends all,
And be kind to Barbara Allan.

And slowly, slowly rose she up,
And slowly, slowly left him;
And sighing, said, she could not stay,
Since death of life had reft him.

She had not gane a mile but twa,
When she heard the death-bell ringing,
And every jow that the dead-bell gied,
It cry'd, Wo to Barbara Allan.

O mother, mother, make my bed,
O make it saft and narrow,
Since my love dy'd for me to-day,
I'll die for him to-morrow.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 09:12 PM

Richie

This entry at Google books: Wife, Children & Friends; Together with Bonny Barbara Allan gives Sold wholesale and retail, by L. Deming, corner of Merchant's Row and Market Square, Boston., 1829.

The entry appears to be 1 page only with no preview, so you can't get any other details, except the publisher and date. (though I notice at American Singing, as115010 - Wife, Children and Friends is given as n.d.).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 10:13 PM

Hi,

TY, Mick I guess that makes it the first printed version in the US. The usual date given is 1836. Does anyone know the source?

Martimas time, is that Nov. 11?

Was Sir John Graeme a historical figure?

R-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 07:38 AM

Hi Richie,
This is just off the top of my head and I will check in more detail later, but the 2 distinct strains of BA are this one and the Reading/Scarlet town strains. I would guess that the Sir John Graeme strain is likely the stage ballad referred to by Pepys in the late 17thc. The Scots language doesn't necessarily mean the ballad came from Scotland. Stage Scotch songs were very popular in the 17thc just as stage Irish songs were popular in later centuries. The 2 strains appear both to have long pedigrees in Britain.

The name Graeme appears in several border ballads and is very likely just generic. Even if you could relate it to the Graemes there were very probably many Sir Johns as I found when I was trying to trace another Scots family mentioned in ballads.

You can easily get 'Martinmas' by Googling.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 09:57 AM

Refersh


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:58 AM

Hi,

Here's Barbara Allen; Sharp Version F: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/barbra-ellen--smith-ky-1907-sharp-f.aspx

This version was collected from Ada Smith by Olive Dame Campbell and listen to he sing it on my page. Clearly the melody and lyrics are Shrap F.

The question would be why is she singing Barb'ry Ellen and not Barb'ra Ellen as the text appears? Also the melody is the same but the text is curiously different. Perhaps she couldn't remember all the verses.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 12:47 PM

Hi,

Here's an African- American version of Barbara Allen from 1888. Any earlier African- American versions?

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/dusky-barbara-allen--va-1888-african-american-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:30 AM

After looking at "Bobree Allin" see link above in last post, here's what I found:

A Dusky Barbara Allen is an African-American version that was published in Harper's New Monthly Magazine, Volume 77, Issues 457-562; dated 1888 edited by Henry Mills Alden. No source is given except that the ballads was sung by African-Americans in Virginia (see quote). There is an incomplete verse in Harper's version- stanza 8 is missing the last two lines. It was corrected in a later publication of the song in "Songs We Used To Sing," August 12, 1912. The correction was made by adding two standard lines:

I cannot keep you from death,
So farewell," said Bob-ree Allin

It was again reprinted by Dorothy Scarborough under the title Bob-ree Allin in her book, On the Trail of Negro Folk-Songs (1925) after she was sent a copy by Alphonso Smith. Scarborough, "A Negro version of Barbara Allan, from Virginia, was sent to me by Professor C. Alphonso Smith. I had wondered if the Negroes had failed to appreciate and appropriate this most familiar and beloved of all the ballads, and so I was pleased at this contribution. This is sung in Albemarle, Wythe, and Campbell Counties, Virginia."

It also appears as Reed Smith's Version F "Bobree Allin" in his South Carolina Ballads. The incomplete stanza 8 has been "edited" without comment apparently by adding the last two lines from Stanza 5. The same version appears as Davis's Version C in Traditional Ballads of Virginia. Davis refers to the publication of the song in "Songs We Used To Sing," August 12, 1912.

Since Scarborough, Smith and Davis didn't know about the 1888 Harper's New Monthly Magazine, Volume 77 publication, there is likely an earlier source than Harper's, now unknown- since the 1912 printing referes to specific locations in Virginaia- "Albemarle, Wythe, and Campbell Counties."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 09:08 AM

I'd like to know your opinion on this:

The curious and not well known fact about Barbara Allen is: almost no traditional singer sang "Barb-a-ra" Allen. Barbara is almost always sung as a contraction as "Barb'ra" Allen or as frequently sung in the Appalachians- "Barb'ry" Allen (not Barb-a-ry). Somtimes the titles reflect this pronounciation with the silent missing "a," usually they don't. Therefore many of the titles are innaccurate since they should reflect the way the singer pronounced the name, not a corrected generic title.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 10:41 AM

Hi,

I'm lost in Barbara Allen. The three "collected" early US texts so far come from (1) the Stevens/Douglass manuscripts (New England c. 1841), (2) Walter S. Chatham of PA, (1777-1855) no date given but possibly dating to the 1700s and (3) The Old Album of William A. Larkin (1866).

This goes back to the 1700s through Walter S. Chatham of PA, (1777-1855)version but there is no concrete proof yet.

Here's my US version's page: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-84-bonny-barbara-allen.aspx


Here are my US versions- I have put but half of my texts on so far and very few of my 30 plus US recordings:

Bonny Barbara Allan- Broadside; Boston 1829
Barbara Allen- United States Songster (OH) 1836
Barbara Allen- Stevens (NY) 1841 Pioneer Songster
Barbara Allan- Forget-Me-Not Songster (MA) 1845
Barbara Allan- Southern Warbler (SC) 1845
Bonny Barbara Allen- Chatham (PA) c.1850s
Barbara Allan- (MA) c.1860 Sheet Music- Macfarren
Barbry Allen- Larkin (IL) 1866 Musick
Barbara Allen's Cruelty- (NY) 1888 Harper's
A Dusky Barbara Allen- (VA) 1888 African-American
Barbro Allen- (NC) 1893 Edmands JOAFL
Barbara Allen- Walters (MO) pre-1906 Belden A
Barbery Allen- Cotton (MO) pre1906 Belden B
Barbara Allen- Lowry (MO) pre-1906 Belden C
Barbara Allen- Williams (MO) pre-1906 Belden D
Barbara Allen's Cruelty- (MO) pre-1906 Belden E
Barbara Allen- Williams (MO) pre-1906 Belden F
Barb'ra Ellen- Smith (KY) 1907 Sharp F
Barbara Allan- Kerr (GA) 1928 JOAFL
Barbara Allen- Riddle (NC) pre-1926 Henry A
Barbara Allen- Kettler (IL) pre1939 Neely
Barbry Ellen- Aylward (NL) c.1950 Leach
Cowboy's Barbara Allen- Bray (WY) 1962 Thieme
Barbara Allen- Franklin (NC) 1929 Henry C
Barbey Ellen- Proctor (TN) 1928 Henry B
Barbara Allen- McCoy (GA) 1914 Sharp A
Barbary Allen- Norton (TN) 1916 Sharp E
Barb'ra Allen- MacKinney (GA) 1910 Sharp B
Barb'ra Ellen- Johnson (NC) 1916 Sharp D
Barb'ra Ellen- Gay (GA) 1914 Sharp C
Barbara Allen- Graham (CA) 1938 Robertson REC
Barbara Allen- Nye (OH) c.1937 Lomax REC
Barbara Allen- Judd/Spainhour (CA) 1940 REC
Barbara Allen- Tarwater (TN) 1936 Seeger REC
Barbara Allen- Nicholson (IN) 1946 Moser REC
Barbara Allen- Burl Ives (NY) 1953 Songbook
Barbara Allen- Kincaid (KY) 1928 REC
Bobree Allin- (VA) pre-1888 Davis C; Smith F
Barbara Ellen- Gilbert (VA) 1912 Davis A
Barbara Ellen- Pearson (VA) 1916 Davis B
Barbara Allen- Alley/Wilson (VA) 1921 Davis D
Bobby Allen- Hines (FL) 1939 Lomax REC
Barbara Allen- Collom (MI) c.1875 Gardner A
Barbara Allen- Heckel (IN) 1936 Brewster A
Barbara Allen- Merritt (IN) 1935 Brewster B
Barbara Allen- Elliott (IN) 1935 Brewster C
Barbara Allen- Hopkins (IN) 1935 Brewster D
Barbary Allen- Corn (IN) 1935 Brewster E
Barbara Allen- Shriver (IN) 1935 Brewster F
Barbara Allen- Huffman (IN) 1936 Brewster G
Barbry Ellen- Ritchie (KY) pre-1953 Music & REC
Barbara Allen- Bryant (IN) 1935 Brewster H
Barbara Allen- Mason (IN) 1935 Brewster I
Barbry Allen- Fendley (AR) 1963 Wolfe
Barb'ru Allen- Hedy West (GA) 1965 REC
Barbara Allen- Leslie (IN) 1935 Brewster J
Barbara Allen- Lomax (IN) 1936 Brewster K
Barbara Allen- Rothrock (IN) 1935 Brewster L
Barbara Allen- Waller (IN) 1935 Brewster M & N
Barbara Allen- Kent (Miss.) pre-1909 Perrow A
Barbara Allen- Holliman (Miss.) pre-1909 Perrow B
Barbary Allen- Shepherd (NC) 1923 Carter JOAFL
It Was in the Month of May- Borusky (WI) 1937
Barbara Allen- Pettit (KY) 1907 Kittredge JOAFL
Barbru Allen- Crocker (MS) pre-1926 Hudson A
Barbara Allen- Easley (MS) pre-1926 Hudson B
Barbra Allen- Bickerstaff (MS) pre-1926 Hudson C
Barbara Allen- Womble (MS) pre-1926 Hudson D
Bobr'y Allen- Wharton (VA) 1950 Leach JOAFL
Barbara Allen- Keener (WV) 1957 Musick A
Barbara Allen- Glasscock (WV) 1957 Musick B
Barbara Allen- (KY) 1917 McGill BOOK
Barbara Allen- (KY) Wyman/Brockway 1916 BOOK
Barbara Allen- Crawford (NC) 1913 Pound B
Barbara Allen- Frank Luther (NY) 1928 REC
Barbra Allen- Davis/Gordon (GA) 1927 Sandburg

O cruel Barb'ra Allen!!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 11:18 AM

Opinion.

Hi, Richie. We've all suffered from the generic titles syndrome. In retrospect I'm sure that most editors will agree that the ideal is a generic master title for identification purposes accompanied by as close as possible phonetic version of the singer's own title.

In this case most educated people are fully aware that the correct spelling of 'Barbara' as written on most birth certificates is this one, and so in their eyes to give a version as sung or spoken was an arbitrary decision. However, even in Pepys' time 'Barbara' was being written 'Barbary'.

If it's any help, the majority of people in England would call someone 'Barbra' or even 'Babs' or 'Barb'. The only people who would put in the correct required 'a' in speech are those brought up to pronounce everything correctly, or those who have spent much dosh on taking elocution lessons.


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