BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

Q,

"There is little point in arguing with a militant supporters of Israel expansion."

Are you saying that asking for the same rights for the 820,000 Jewish Arab refugees as is being demanded for the 640,000 Muslim Arab refugees is an indication that I am "militant supporter of Israel expansion"

What does that say about those asking for Palestinian "rights"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:29 PM

There is less point in arguing with those that support Hamas in killing their own civilians and committing crimes against humanity by mass anti-personnel rocket attacks against Israeli civilians.

But there is no harm in putting the FACTS out there, and letting people know that there ARE two sides to the conflict.

I have picked which one I support.

Some have picked the other side, and I have my opinion of them.

Others may be trying to determine were the truth is- and IMO they are not getting that truth from those opposed to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:25 PM

There is little point in arguing with militant supporters of Israel expansion.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:16 PM

Q,

"The world is faced with more refugees needing the necessities of life from the world's coffers, but more importantly a people loses all hope as their lands disappear."

You mean like the 820,000 Jews (vice 640,000 Palestinian Arabs) driven from Arab lands that
lost everything?


THEY were settled ( 540,000 in Israel, the rest mostly in the US) UNLIKE the Palestinian Arabs, that were kept in camps by other Arabs.

Where were the demands for a Palestinan state when Jordan had control of the West Bank, and rendered it "Jew-Free"?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

The Israelis are clearing out northern Gaza, leaving 100,000 homeless.

Slowly, but surely, any possibility of a nation for the Palestinian peoples is being destroyed as the Israeli government pursues its policy of eventually gaining the whole of Palestine.

The world is faced with more refugees needing the necessities of life from the world's coffers, but more importantly a people loses all hope as their lands disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:47 AM

Of course, Steve, it is cynical. It is cynical of Hamas to place their rocket launchers amongst its populace knowing it will not deter Israel from taking out those sites. If Hamas wanted to protect its civilians, even one person, they would not so. It is cynical of you to try to put a better face on that action in any way..

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"I was referring to you spiel about the Israelis using human shields"
You are quite capable of checking for yourself - there are examples of Israel both using children as shields, and of them launching rockets from the schoolyard of a kindergaten, along with photographs of both - try the 'Christians for Peace site.
I'm a bit fed up with providing links only to have the information they contain disappear into th ether, never to be referred to again.
As much of a pain in the arse Hamas is, without them Israel would have a totally free hand to do what it wants - more settlements, more incursions, more humiliation, more slaughter of civilians - who knows, maybe a replay of Sabra/Shatila to solve the refugee crisis once and for all.
Interestingly, the suggestion of an international boycott of Israeli goods has appeared in the our press sever times lately - not much, but it did help bring Apartheid South Africa to its knees eventually.
Garden calls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:10 AM

Hamas probably calculates that more deaths will prompt Western governments to pressure Israel to grant Hamas's demands.

Well yes, calculations may take place (I'd avoid "probably" actually). But on both sides. How would you like it if I claimed that Israel's calculation is that they can kill and kill and kill until the west threatens sanctions? Now I don't happen to think that myself, but it's no less plausible than your contention that Hamas wants more and more of its own people killed. Hamas is answerable to its own people and the wider middle east, just as Israel is answerable to its own people. You seem to be of the Netanyahu persuasion that persistent demonising somehow helps the cause. It doesn't, and, worse, it's very likely to be predicated on lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 11:03 AM

It was the "killing as many Palestinians as possible" bit that I challenged. It's clearly nonsense and to challenge it is hardly cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:48 AM

"Why would Hamas insist on continuing the fight when it is faring so poorly? The only plausible answer is stomach-turning: The Islamic movement calculates that it can win the concessions it has yet to obtain from Israel and Egypt not by striking Israel but by perpetuating the killing of its own people in Israeli counterattacks. More than 200 people, including a number of children, have already died in Gaza; Hamas probably calculates that more deaths will prompt Western governments to pressure Israel to grant Hamas's demands."

Hamas is playing a dangerous game with Gazan lives

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

-The use of human shields is an attempt to stop your adversary from shooting, not "kill as many Palestinians as possible". My point is to put you right on this, not to defend the use of human shields:-Steve Shaw

This is a cynical distinction without a difference! Hamas knows that by putting Palestinians in harms way, some number of them will be killed when Israel tries to take out the launch sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

So, "senior Hamas spokesman", eh, bobad? And what would one of those be? I've tried to find out about this Sami Abu chap of yours and that's the only description of him I can find. As far as I can see, "spokesman" is as far as it goes for him. I wonder whether that's a self-assumed title... That, together with the indecipherable images in your link, makes the human shield example you're trying to convince us of just about as persuasive as footage of the Loch Ness Monster. Got anything better?

Steve Shaw (senior atheist spokesman) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

Bad dodge, Jim....and I was referring to you spiel about the Israelis using human shields.

Nope, I'm afraid this is only going to get bloodier and bloodier.
As far as what do the Palestinians do...they should tell Hamas to fuck off, and get out of their lives and neighborhoods!..and quit using their hospitals and churches/mosques to launch attacks from! How many times are the fringe radicals going to keep doing this, expecting different results? How long is Israel going to put up with swatting angry bees away from them, before they decide to go for the whole hive? How long is is going to be, before Israel launches against Iran? How long are the Arabs going to be at war with EVERYONE, including all their fucking little factions, warlords, and religious interpretations of 'infidels'??
If Hamas, or their 'funders' would spend a fraction of the money on helping the Palestinians, building infrastructure, and developing the lands that have been conceded to them, instead of digging tunnels and fortifying, maybe they'd ALL be better off...but instead they have to NOT let go of their hatred and attack ISRAEL, while simultaneously endanger the very people whom they CLAIM...well wait a minute, who even says that Hamas 'represents' those people they are using for human shields, or are even 'on their side'?..They bow and scrape to Iran...not Palestinians...shit, I'd tell them to 'get outta' Dodge'..because, in reality, they haven't done diddly-squat for the very people that they are using for shields and propaganda...and why not??..Their too busy trying to kill people for Allah!...whether they be Israelis or other groups who are also trying to kill anyone and anything, for Allah....These are not very bright or peaceful people, folks!...and if anyone wanted to help them, you'd think they'd help them to settle down, don't ya' think?
...but then there are others, who'd rather have them trying to kill, while being killed, just to satisfy THEIR hatred!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:28 AM

It just goes to show that you have your theories, just like a lot of other people, depending on whose side you're on. What you don't have is truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Ed T-- [-] response to your post

Since Hamas is the Gaza governing body, and (as it sets the targets) is it not reasonable to speculate it has within its power to create safe zones [Yes it Would. But they Don't], areas where they will not shoot rockets from [They don't seem to have such areas], is the onus not with Hamas (not Israel) to protect its citizens? [One would would think so, yes?]

The targets seem to be the buildings from where rockets are fired at Israel by Hamas. Is it not reasonable to speculate that it is likely that the resident of the militarized home, and even neighbours,would know this, and see the building as a potental target, espevially [sic] after a rocket is fired from the location.

I make the above suggestion based an asdumption[sic. You know what they say about assumptions.] that Hamas is not intentionally putting its citizens at risk to score political points [Evidence does not support your assumption]. It would be rare to have a governing body that would have such a lack of compassionate concerns for its innocent citizens welfare [Perhaps, but not unknown by a long shot-no pun intended], and would intentionally use them as military fodder [Just gos to show that governments are not always acting in the best/immediate interests of the governed.]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:19 AM

"I make the above suggestion based an asdumption that Hamas is not intentionally putting its citizens at risk to score political points"

Then you would be wrong: Hamas tells Palestinian civilians to place themselves in the line of fire

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:08 AM

But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible.

Do stay rational. If Hamas is using human shields who are then killed, the killing was done by those who do the shooting, not Hamas. If you know that your adversary is using human shields but you fire anyway, you are knowingly killing innocent people. You can't claim that your enemy killed people who died by your bombs and bullets. You did the killing and you'd better have a better defence than claiming that they did it all along. Of course, you may feel you've found out afterwards that human shields were used, but you would then have difficulty proving your human shield contention in any case. The first casualty of war is truth. The use of human shields is an attempt to stop your adversary from shooting, not "kill as many Palestinians as possible". My point is to put you right on this, not to defend the use of human shields: putting innocent people in harm's way deliberately is indefensible. But I think that many people use the human shield argument far too readily. Including you, as you do not even understand the concept at all by the looks of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 10:01 AM

"It would be rare to have a governing body that would have such a lack of compassionate concerns for its innocent citizens welfare, and would intentionally use them as military fodder."

Yet, from the instructions from Hamas for civilians to stay in place after given direct warnings by Israel that they are in a military target, this is the case with Hamas at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:52 AM

Where should GAZA citizens go?

Since Hamas is the Gaza governing body, and (as it sets the targets) is it not reasonable to speculate it has within its power to create safe zones, areas where they will not shoot rockets from, is the onus not with Hamas (not Israel) to protect its citizens?

The targets seem to be the buildings from where rockets are fired at Israel by Hamas. Is it not reasonable to speculate that it is likely that the resident of the militarized home, and even neighbours,would know this, and see the building as a potental target, espevially after a rocket is fired from the location.

I make the above suggestion based an asdumption that Hamas is not intentionally putting its citizens at risk to score political points. It would be rare to have a governing body that would have such a lack of compassionate concerns for its innocent citizens welfare, and would intentionally use them as military fodder.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:31 AM

Perhaps they can be temporarily housed in the real estate projects in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Dubai that have been funded by Hamas with the money they stole from the citizens of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:04 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Hundreds of Palestinian families, their children crying, fled Wednesday, as Israel ordered tens of thousands of residents of border areas to evacuate their neighborhoods.

On Wednesday morning, hundreds of residents of Zeitoun and Shijaiyah were seen walking in the streets, carrying small bags with belongings. Older children carried smaller ones, in their arms or on their backs. Some of the women and children cried, looking terrified.

The Wafa Rehabilitation Center in Shijaiyah, which cares for 15 disabled and elderly patients, received several calls demanding the patients evacuate, said its director, Basman Ashi. He said an Israel shell hit near the building, causing damage to the second floor, but no injuries. Ashi said he won't evacuate because his elderly patients have nowhere to go.

The Palestinian death toll in nine days of fighting rose to 204, with some 1,450 wounded, Palestinian health officials said. On the Israeli side, one man was killed and several people were wounded since the fighting erupted on July 8.


So again I ask: Where, precisely, does Israel expect these ejected refugee families to go?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

"So, what would you do??"
You've had my ideas GFI - if you are in any way interested - read them
References - were the hell would I get references for my opinions, you've had enough references, from Einstein down to Chomsky, which you either ignore or pass off as "anti-Semitic -what chance does a poor gi#rl like me have in this wicked world!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:44 AM

So, what would you do??

and, can you provide a reliable reference?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 03:40 AM

"But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible."
Israel has been using human shield in the correct sense throughout the conflict.
Israeli troops placed children in front of military vehicles and forced them to walk in front of them when entering unknown territory - it was condemned by the U.N. for doing so.
During one of Israel's incursions into Gazan civilian areas, on the way to konck down a few homes, it set up missile launching bases in schoolyards - 'Christians for Peace' representatives described how they carred kindergarten children out of the range of the fighting, particularly to save them from being blinded by the tear gas.   
Bombing civilian, non-combatant area and slaughtering civilians in order to stop rocket attacks is an extreme case of using helpless human beings for military objectives.
Threatening, "if YOU don't stop firing rockets, we'll kill THEM and destroy THEIR homes, is human-shielding in the extreme.
Whining about one side using 'human shields' while ignoring the fact that the team they are cheering for is doing the exactly the same thing in spades is partisan bullshit.   
This is a shitty war being fought by shitty people led by shitty politicians - and being supported by inhuman agenda- pushers.
Dirty hands all round.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:11 PM

DR tawfik hamid about the suffering of palestinian because of the HAMAS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:55 PM

I realize that Fatah and Hamas recently agreed to reconciliation, and that this caused concern for Israel, hampering the overall peace process- as part of the agreement did not require Hamas to agree with Fatah, that Israel has the right to exist.

My question is related to the relationsihp between Israel and the Fatah government and area. Hamas seems to overshadow Fatah and its area in the news. Has Israel and Fatah shot bombs at each other in recent years? Is the standard of living, employment, and freedoms much better in the Fatah area, than the Hamas (Gaza) area? If so, is there something to be learned from the different approaches that Fatah and Gaza takes with tge relationship with Israel? Or, is it not related?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:27 PM

You guys are talking around each other and not even on the same thing with regard hot fire incidents.

Israel will negotiate a cease fire with Gaza/Hamas, such as the one Egypt offered today/yesterday that Israel had accepted. Hamas refused for whatever reason they're offering at any given moment. Israel has participated in cease fires in in every other hot incidents; to the best of my memory it has always been the other side rejecting or breaking cease fires.

The above is NOT TO BE CONFLATED with negotiating a final peace treaty. Israel's position is that it will not negotiate a final peace treaty, unless the right of a Jewish Israel (allowing for the right of non-Jews to live there also) is recognized by Hamas, especially, and the PA and Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 05:16 PM

Gaza Families Near Israeli Border Struggle to Build a Life in the Heart of a Conflict
New York Times JULY 14, 2014   By ANNE BARNARD

GAZA CITY — In 2008, Umm Samer Marouf fled the northern Gaza Strip under Israeli bombardments that destroyed her family's house and strawberry fields and left her deep in debt. Now, she and her seven children have fled again, from their half-built replacement home, and wonder if it, too, will be demolished.

"They should kill us all at once or resolve this for good, not shoot at us every two years," Ms. Marouf, 42, said Monday at a shelter in Gaza City, a United Nations elementary school where it seemed as if her whole neighborhood had moved, kite-flying children, drying laundry, family squabbles and all.

Some Recent Deaths:

6 people killed on Tuesday when two missiles struck the house of a man said to be an Islamic Jihad commander.

3 killed when war- planes targeted a car on Thursday. The three were said to be members of Al-Quds Brigades.

9 killed when a missile struck a cafe Wednesday night where about a dozen locals had gathered to watch the World Cup. Israeli military said the target was a single terrorist.

8 killed, including six children, when war-planes targeted their house on Thursday in Khan Younis refugee camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 05:15 PM

As far as the available evidence from your posts, you qualify for all.

I've won the Delusional BullshitBruce Trifecta! Which, considering the source, I will wear as a badge of honor.

Thanks, Bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:46 PM

Steve Shaw: "That is not correct, Michael. The Israeli regime has declared that it will not negotiate with Hamas until Hamas declares that Israel has a right to exist and stops firing rockets. The Israeli regime knows full well that those conditions will not be met."


"....The Israeli regime has declared that it will not negotiate with Hamas until Hamas declares that Israel has a right to exist and stops firing rockets."

Israel is a recognized country...so, I have to ask, the 'avoiders' of common sense, this question again...which they REFUSE to answer, and instead give us a bunch of bigoted, hate rhetoric....

"What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?"

and add this to it...

"What should Israel DO after the peace negotiations have been refused by Hamas, who do NOT want to recognize Israel's right to exist, and who want to continue to fire missiles into Israel?"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:34 PM

GregF,

As far as the available evidence from your posts, you qualify for all.

You must be SOOOOOOOOOOO proud of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:32 PM

"United Nations
On January 18, 2009, United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said "for the sake of the people of Gaza, I urge in the strongest possible terms Hamas to stop firing rockets."[210] On January 20, while visiting Sderot, the Secretary General called the rocket attacks "appalling and unacceptable". He added that the projectiles are indiscriminate weapons, and that Hamas attacks are violations of basic humanitarian law.[211] Earlier, in November 2007, Ban had condemned a rocket attack launched from a UN-run Gaza school.[212]

On February 17, 2008, John Holmes, United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator said while visiting Sderot, "The people of Sderot and the surrounding area have had to live with these unacceptable and indiscriminate rocket attacks for seven years now. There is no doubt about the physical and psychological suffering these attacks are causing. I condemn them utterly and call on those responsible to stop them now without conditions".[213]

Following a July 30, 2010, Palestinian Grad missile attack on the heart of Ashkelon, United Nations Middle East envoy Robert Serry said that indiscriminate rocket fire against civilians was completely unacceptable, and constituted a terrorist attack.[214]

United States
In July 2008 Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said: "If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."[215] On December 28, 2008, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a statement: "the United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel".[216] On March 2, 2009 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the attacks.[217]

European Union
On June 7, 2005, The European Union presidency, held by Luxembourg, condemned the firing of rockets by Palestinians at Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip and against Sderot.[218] In January 2009, European Union Aid Commissioner Louis Michel said "Launching rockets at civilians is a terrorist action, which has to be strongly denounced."[219]

Human rights groups
The attacks have been condemned as war crimes, both because they usually target civilians and because the weapons' inaccuracy would disproportionately endanger civilians even if military targets were chosen. Human Rights Watch has also condemned the attackers for firing from near residential structures, thus putting Gazan civilians at unnecessary risk.[33] According to Israeli human rights group B'Tselem,

Palestinian organizations that fire Qassam rockets openly declare that they intend to strike, among other targets, Israeli civilians. Attacks aimed at civilians are immoral and illegal, and the intentional killing of civilians is a grave breach under the Fourth Geneva Convention, a war crime, and cannot be justified, whatever the circumstances. Furthermore, Qassam rockets are themselves illegal, even when aimed at military objects, because the rockets are so imprecise and endanger civilians in the area from which the rockets are fired as well as where they land, thus violating two fundamental principles of the laws of war: distinction and proportionality.[220]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:31 PM

we know that YOU, GregF,

There ya go with the "we" business again. Is that the royal we, or are you talking about you & Boo?

By the way, BullshitBruce, you really do need to decide whether I'm a Racist, an Anti-Semite, or a Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:29 PM

"The firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel has been opposed by those living closest to the firing location due to Israeli military responses. On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot and killed one boy and wounded 5 others.[202][203][204][205]"



"Misfired rockets have also killed and injured Palestinians within the Gaza Strip. However, due to harsh restrictions in information politics and a total lack of free press in the Gaza strip, precisely reporting the number of Palestinian victims is impossible. As far as it became known, the missiles, rockets and mortars have killed six Palestinians and injured dozens more. On June 8, 2005, rockets fired at the Israeli settlement of Ganei Tal killed two Palestinian workers and one Chinese worker in a packing plant. On August 2, 2005, a rocket apparently launched by Islamic Jihad killed a 6-year-old boy and his father in Beit Hanoun.[33] On December 26, 2008 a mortar aimed at Israel killed two Palestinian girls in the Gaza Strip, aged 5 and 12.[134]
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:05 PM

"Khaled Jaabari, Gaza commander of the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades, said that the group uses Google Earth to determine targets.[101] Rocket fire occasionally occurs in the early morning when children head to school.[102][103]

A source close to Hamas described the movement's tactic of launching projectiles from between homes during the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict: "They fired rockets in between the houses and covered the alleys with sheets so they could set the rockets up in five minutes without the planes seeing them. The moment they fired, they escaped, and they are very quick."[104] Videos released by Hamas in 2011 show Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. According to Yedioth Aharonoth journalist Elior Levy, "Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".[105]

It has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.[106] Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed… Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures… Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have frequently violated the laws of war by firing rockets from within populated areas…"[22] Indiscriminate attacks on civilians and civilian structures that do not discriminate between civilians and military targets are illegal under international law.[22][23]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

"Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of November 2012, the attacks have killed 64 people, mostly civilians, and injured thousands, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[1] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage.[2][3][4] A public opinion poll conducted in March 2013 found that most Palestinians do not support firing rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip.[5]

The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha, WS-1B[6] and Grad rockets.[7] In 2012, Jerusalem and Israel's commercial center Tel Aviv were targeted with locally made "M-75" and Iranian Fajr-5 rockets, respectively,[8] and in July 2014, the northern city of Haifa was targeted for the first time.[9] A few projectiles have contained white phosphorus.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16]

Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[17] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[18][19][20][21] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Indiscriminate attacks on civilians and civilian structures that do not discriminate between civilians and military targets are illegal under international law.[22][23]"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

Al Jazeera published a list of those killed in Gaza. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html. The majority are combatant aged males. In 2009 Hamas admitted, after several months, that 80% of the dead in that conflict were Hamas combatants.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible.


From your posts, we know that YOU, GregF, do not care about Palestinian deaths except as a way of attacking Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

"Taking Sderot as a case study, Kaplan and Zucker applied shrapnel/casualty and spatial allocation models to the population of the town to estimate casualties per randomly aimed rocket fired in the absence of civil defenses.

With civil defense measures in place, Sderot sustained 5,000 rockets between 2001 and 2010, and 90 percent of residents experienced a rocket landing on their street or on the one adjacent to theirs. But 10 residents were killed during this time, and less than 500 sustained injuries.

A Sderot lacking civil defenses, the researchers found, in "an intermediate daytime scenario, would result in 75 rather than 10 deaths in Sderot between 2001 and 2010," the researchers found.

"The results were very clear," Kaplan told the Post. "In the best case, there would be three times as many casualties as observed in Sderot. In the worst case, there would be nine times as many casualties. In the intermediate case – which we would argue best describes 'a day in the life of Sderot' – there would be seven times as many casualties.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM

"According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS), at the end of 2011 the city had a total population of 24,000.[1] The city has been an ongoing target of Qassam rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip since 2001.

Sderot is located less than a mile from Gaza (the closest point is 840 m).[2] Rocket attacks on the city have killed 13 Israelis, wounded dozens, caused millions of dollars in damage and profoundly disrupted daily life.[3] Studies have found that air raid sirens and explosions have caused severe psychological trauma in some residents.[4] From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5] Popular for having numerous Bomb shelters some of which are built in the form of Children's Play areas in school play grounds, Sderot is infamously referred to as The "Bomb Shelter Capital of the World.""

Now, how about the smiles and cheers of Palestinians as those rockets are launched at israeli civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

How many dead in the town of Sderot from rockets, BB?

And do look at the joy on the faces of the Israelis in the photo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

No mention of the photo in that article of the house in that town with a hole in it from a Hamas rocket?


"Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sørensen said that, in a war, "this is what happens." Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, "go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy.""

Or the comments by the author that he understood the people in the town had been under constant rocket attack for the last 14 years?

"When he was a candidate for the American presidency in 2008, then-Senator Barack Obama visited the town and saluted "the brave citizens" of Sderot while standing in front of a collection of spent rockets that had been fired at them from Gaza. He was also presented with an "I Love Sderot" T-shirt that channeled the dark humor of the residents, with the image of a heart on its front pierced by a rocket."

"Mr. Sørensen, who stressed that he has "a complete understanding of what the people of Sderot have been going through for 14 years," attributed the particularly vitriolic response to his Twitter report to the climate in Israel since three young religious students were kidnapped and murdered in the occupied West Bank last month. The journalist called the "extreme incitement to violence from very right-wing Israeli groups unprecedented" in the many years he has been reporting from the region."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:02 PM

A video showing Palestinians chanting "Allahu Akbar" a few days ago, as they watched rockets fired from Gaza into Israel.



popcorn for both sides, unfortunately 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

Looks Like they're having an absolutely GREAT tme! Pass the popcorn, please!

Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

JULY 14, 2014
By ROBERT MACKEY

Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn.

Allan Sørensen, a veteran Middle East correspondent for Denmark's Kristeligt Dagblad, then uploaded the image to Twitter with a sardonic caption that described the macabre scene as "Sderot cinema."
Continue reading the main story

The image of the Israeli spectators was taken after 9 p.m. local time on Wednesday, the reporter said, about the same time that what was intended to be a "precision strike" from Israel's military killed at least eight of their Palestinian neighbors, seated in similar plastic chairs at a beachside cafe in Gaza, waiting to watch the World Cup semifinal between Argentina and the Netherlands.

As his image reverberated around the social network, where it was shared more than 10,000 times, the reporter was surprised by the response. It was, he said in a telephone interview from Israel, "nothing new." Similar scenes, of Israeli spectators gathered on the high ground above Gaza to view the destruction below, were documented in a Times of London article and a video report from Denmark's TV2 during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.



PHOTO HERE

Photo:
Israelis gathered on a hilltop outside the town of Sderot on Monday to watch the bombardment of Gaza. Credit Lefteris Pitarakis/Associated Press

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

About the ceasefire that Hamas rejected ( so that more Palestinians will die):

"It's also important to note that the Arab League, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (who heads Hamas' rival Fatah), and the United States all endorsed the proposal.

Why Israel accepted it

Despite rejection of the ceasefire by two right-leaning members in Israel's cabinet, there was no reason for Israel not to accept it.

What now?

Hamas will continue to fire rockets and Israel will likely continue to respond with airstrikes and possibly a ground invasion if things get bad. Until Hamas finds a way to declare some kind of victory, it will continue to fight.

In a statement on Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered this assessment:

If Hamas rejects the Egyptian proposal and the rocket fire from Gaza does not cease, and that appears to be the case, we are prepared to continue and intensify our operation."
Hamas launched over 50 rockets from Gaza into Israel into the afternoon while Israel held its fire. The Israeli cessation is reportedly over and they have resumed airstrikes."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:45 AM

"We" indicates anyone who bothers to read your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:44 AM

GregF,

I thought you could read-

Obviously I overestimated you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

"Why do YOU keep defending that?"

Do you really have to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

We know that YOU consider killing Jews "moral"

"We" do, BeardedBullshit? Fascinating.And predictably stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

Musket,

YOU are wrong.

You have not addressed any of the legal points, and merely made pronouncements from ignorance.





Hamas is legally responsible for their illegal bombardment, and their illegal use of human shields.


Why do YOU keep defending that? THAT is what is killing Palestinians.


Or is it that YOU want to see Palestinians killed, as long as you can ( wrongly) blame it on Israel? THAT is Hamas's reason for their refusal to stop, after Israel unilaterally accepted the cease-fire.