BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:29 PM

"I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians."

Fuck, you never stop with your hateful spite do you.

The thread is entitled small hope - the key word being "hope". Every act of kindness like this from either side is is a sign of hope. In the end peace will come from the citizens on each side deciding that there is more that binds them that keeps them apart. Acts like this is what brings people to better understand each other.

Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.""

Perhaps she will pass that thought on to the rest of her ministerial colleagues, and perhaps they will see it in the same light in regard to their actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

I don't think I will hold my breath while waiting though!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:32 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.""

My heart goes out to the parents of that dead child, and I can only marvel at what it cost to decide on organ donation. Likewise I am not surprised that ordinary Israeli citizens should feel kinship with Palestinian parents suffering as they were.

What is not clear is what relevance this has to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel's Government and armed forces, which is more likely to cause the need for transplants than the supply of same.

False equivalence is not a valid argument.

Now, if you had said that there were three possible matches for the organs, two Israelis and one Palestinian, and the Palestinian (being a slightly better match) got the transplant, I would have been very impressed indeed.

I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

3-year-old Israeli's kidney saves Palestinian boy

When three-year-old Noam Naor fell out the window and was pronounced clinically dead 10 days ago, his parents decided to donate his organs. One kidney was given to another Israeli child. The other saved the life of a 10-year-old Palestinian.

The operation, carried out Sunday at the Schneider children's ward at Petah Tikva's Beilinson Hospital, was deemed successful.

Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.

The Palestinian boy had been treated with dialysis at Jerusalem's Shaare Zedek Medical Center for seven years before the match was found. The Health Ministry's transplant center contacted Noam's parents, and asked them if they'd be willing to donate the kidney to someone who wasn't Israeli — specifically, a Palestinian.

"It doesn't matter who gets the kidneys, so long as fewer children need to undergo dialysis treatments," News1 quoted Noam's father as saying.

The father of the boy who received the donation told the site he had "no words" that could express his feelings, but wanted to thank the donor's family who gave his son "a new life after years of waiting."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:51 PM

""This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News""

I don't recall anybody on this thread, or the others, having attacked Israeli doctors.

I DO recall somebody making remarks about Greg "changing the subject, when losing an argument".

Oh yeah! That was YOU Bobad, wasn't it?

As to your previous post about Jew bashing in the USA, we can discuss that, if you really care, in a thread about that topic, since those victims were Americans in the USA.

It is however another sidestep from this thread which is about the government and armed forces of the State of Israel.

What's up, changing the subject because you are losing the argument?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:29 PM

SOUTHERN SHUNEH, Jordan (AP) — Israel's president urged Israeli and Palestinian leaders on Sunday to overcome differences and resume peace negotiations, saying the sides could not afford "to lose this opportunity."

President Shimon Peres issued his call ahead of a gathering of Mideast leaders on the sidelines of a World Economic Forum meeting on the shores of the Dead Sea in Jordan. Sunday's meeting was expected to include a rare face-to-face meeting between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, along with the participation of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who has devoted much of the past two months to restarting long-stalled peace talks.

"We shouldn't lose the opportunity because it will be replaced by a great disappointment," Peres told reporters in Jordan. "For my experience, I believe it's possible to overcome it. It doesn't require too much time."

Yahoo! News

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:11 PM

This is the saddest part of the article linked to above:

"....the mother's and daughter's journey to safety was a long and dangerous one.

They made their way to Israel through a third country, the name of which has not been made known for security reasons.

The child and her mother are also not being named because of a potentially hostile reaction should they eventually return home.

"It's just too dangerous," said Fatma Sarsour, Arabic translator for Save a Child's Heart.

"At some point, both daughter and mother will go back to Syria and they want to keep this trip a secret," she said.

Her middle-aged mother appeared uncomfortable with media attention because of the perils of being identified and declined to comment."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:47 PM

This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News

The young girl was dying when she arrived in the land of her country's enemy.

A heart condition had left the 4-year-old Syrian struggling to walk or even talk.

But in Israel – a country still in a state of cease-fire with Syria after the Yom Kippur War four decades ago -- she found her saviors.

Admitted earlier this month to the Wolfson Medical Center, south of Tel Aviv, she underwent life-saving surgery.

The girl is now recuperating on a ward along with children from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Sudan, Romania, China and Israel.

"She would have definitely died if she wouldn't have arrived here," Ilan Cohen, one of the doctors who treated her, said.

Read more

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:06 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Some of your fellow travelers on "the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby': VIDEO: Jew Bashing in USA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:09 AM

""Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?""

Maybe when Israel stops pushing the Palestinians into a tiny corner of the West Bank and replacing them with Israeli settlers.

Gaza isn't the only issue, however much you would like to deflect attention from the West Bank.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:43 PM

"The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation ..."

I think that the role of Islamist "wackos", of which there is a preponderance in Israel's neighbourhood, are more relevant to this conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:36 PM

Some Jews are highly critical of Israel
True of any country with freedom of speech, like Israel but excluding most of its neighbours.

The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns.
Wackos have wacko plans, but they don't matter because they are wackos.
What is your interest?
Why should we care?


They have hated Israel from day one, so you can not ascribe that to anything Israel has done.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.
At last something we can agree on.
Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?
Israel has received missiles from all those places in recent weeks.

Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.
Israel has committed no atrocity, or it would be denounced by countries like Ireland, etc.
In the real world, everyone knows these accusations are shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:05 AM

Remember, Jews are not all Zionists. They haven't all bought into Israeli propaganda.
Some Jews are highly critical of Israel and have a more intimate knowledge of Zionism and what it has become.

The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation because the real haters of Israel are supporters of Netanyahu et. al. and their policies. The "wackos" and the military industrial complex are on track to destroying Israel by supporting aggressive Israeli militarism which the world condemns. The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns. Meanwhile, the arms merchants get rich.

Islamic fundamentalists are unfortunately on the rise worldwide due to the repressive policies of the U.S. and Israel. The military policies strengthen the reactionary forces of Islam and make it acceptable to people in Afghanstan, Pakistan, Iran, and even Turkey as well as Egypt, which you will remember, burned the Israeli embassy to the ground.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.

The world is waking up to the fact that Israel could trigger a third world war. Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Bobad, its obvious that you know bugger-all about the political situation in the US vis-a-vis Israel, or simply choose to ignore reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:18 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Yes, it's true, the Jews control the world and this is how they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:44 AM

Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments

Only Islamic ones and dictatorships.


"Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?"
Yes they ******* do -

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:20 AM

If you'd read all the reviews you claim to have read you'd know that the film isn't about "legality" or "wrong people" - it is six men speaking about what they did, why they did it, and the effect it has had on Israel, The Middle East and the world. If "wrong" comes into it, it is in moral terms, not legal ones (soerly missing from your own input).
There is no commentary to draw legal conclusions - the men speak for themselves.
The main conclusion from the film is that past actions have brutalised the Israeli people and made the Israeli regime comparable to the Nazis - that is what should concern those defending Israel, not whether these actions are "legal".
There was nothing new about dropping bombs on occupied homes to kill suspected terrorists - that has been regular Israeli practice for a long time and was highlighted during the last Gaza incursion - it is a war crime in all but name and the reason it is not officially identified as such is because of the US vetoes which have prevented the world organisations taking action (just as Russia's and China's vetoes have protected Assad's Syria from intervention.
The same vetoes and support by the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby' is also the reason why Israel is not recognised as a terrorist state - not because the UN or Europe supports anything Israel does. Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments, international organisations and human rights bodies - you and your thicko/sicko buddies have continually referred to these condemnations as lies, Muslim plots, and anti-Semitism.   
You and they are a vicious idiots who twist what everything virtually everybody is saying to promote your mindless viciousness.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:40 AM

"..... and killed the wrong people."
Where on earth did I day that - I said no such thing and neither did the film.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:03 AM

Hamas is categorised as terrorist by EU.
Britain France, Germany and most of rest of EU want Hezbollah categorised terrorist.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/23/us-france-hezbollah-idUSBRE94M07R20130523

Israel is not, so they must all agree with me about Jim's film.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:31 PM

Yes they all do.
Some are critical of the W.Bank settlements.
Fair enough. The settlements are real. They exist.

They do not criticise Israel for committing terrible war crimes and massacring civilians, because that never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:19 PM

As an example of the lies told by our resident anti Arab brigade with respect to international support for Israel the following:-

""Allegations of international law violations

The establishment of Israeli settlements are held to constitute a transfer of Israel's civilian population into the occupied territories and as such are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.[91][92][93] This is disputed by other legal experts who argue with this interpretation of the law [94]

In 2000, the editors of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Palestine Yearbook of International Law (1998–1999) said "the "transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory" amounts to a war crime. They hold that this is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."[95]

In 2004 the International Court of Justice, in an advisory, non-binding[96] opinion, noted that the Security Council had described Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in the occupied territories as a "flagrant violation" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Court also concluded that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law and that all the States parties to the Geneva Convention are under an obligation to ensure compliance by Israel with international law as embodied in the Convention.[87]

In May 2012 the 27 ministers of foreign affairs of the European Union published a report strongly denouncing policies of the State of Israel in the West Bank and finding that settlements in the West Bank are illegal: "settlements remain illegal under international law, irrespective of recent decisions by the government of Israel. The EU reiterates that it will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties."[97] The report by all EU foreign ministers also criticized the Israeli government's failure to dismantle settler outposts illegal even under domestic Israeli law." (My emphasis)

Israel denies that the Israeli settlements are in breach of any international laws.[98] The Israeli Supreme Court has yet to rule decisively on settlement legality under the Geneva Convention.""

You did state earlier in this or in the other thread that Europe supports Israel, did you not?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:10 PM

""Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.""

You would deny that nearly 7000 civilians, over 1500 of whom were children, were the wrong people??

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

We are not talking about drawing conclusions Don.

Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.

I am sure that if that was true it would have been reported in all those reviews, so I think he made that up.

I could be wrong.
I often am.
We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

"There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have to convert or be swept away.

Now let's have a look at what the Qur'an (the holy book of Muslims) has to say about Christians and Jews:

    Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
    Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
    When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
    Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
    Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
    The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
    Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
    The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
    Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
    (22:19)
    Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
    The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
    Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
    Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an (8:12)
    Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)

The Qur'an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur'an.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:10 PM

""I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?""

Being a mere human, Jim could certainly be wrong, but HE has watched the film and drawn a conclusion based on what he saw.

YOU, on the other hand, have ignored the film and made a response based upon the lack of some airy fairy idea of what the reaction of others might be if Jim were right, concluding that, in the absence of such reaction he is not.

Why so reluctant to deal with the real facts, unless I am correct in my assessment of you as a hard wired apologist who simply cannot admit the possibility of being wrong and will refuse any evidence that you are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:19 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
And also in Palestine.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.
Wackos.
Nothing to do with our discussion.
There are adamant Muslims who claim Israel must be destroyed and Jews killed because of interpretations of Koranic statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:48 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
"Jews only" roads are a side issue. One of the techniques used in propaganda is to sideline major issues with smaller ones to detract from the essential issue. Although Hamas and Israel employ violence toward each other, Israel is the largest offender because it is an occupier and suppressor of Palestine, possessing more weapon technology and includes expansion of their settlements in opposition to the UN and international law.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.

Israeli propaganda is matched by similar forms coming from America. It is engendered by the power brokers in both countries and has no validity in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:45 AM

I have not seen it Don.
Are you suggesting that is a lie?
Why are you so desperate to accuse me of things?
You people are never content to discuss the issues.

I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?
If the film does not say that, he has made it up.

I can't wait to see it myself now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:26 AM

The weasel's wriggling out of the situation again Jim.

Why do you suppose he hasn't, or claims that he hasn't, watched the film?

He's deathly afraid that he might have to admit that he was wrong, and St Keith just cannot be wrong.

A waste of air and bandwidth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:34 AM

TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
Yes I have.
Quotes from 2 reviews and offerred to produce as many more as you want.
None say that the six accuse IDF of illegal actions or hitting the wrong people.
If the six had said that, it would be the main issue.

Now, you produce your evidence Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:28 AM

'Palestinian Only' Buses in Israel: The Big Lies are Back
Of course there are no "Jews only" roads in Israel, just as there are no Jews only buses or even 'Palestinian only' buses in Israel. But if you tell a big lie often enough,....
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/palestinian-only-buses-in-israel-goebbels-big-lies-are-back/2013/03/05/0/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:58 AM

"proof that Israel is a democracy"
And the findings from everywhere else, including groups like Jews for Justice, Unesco, UN Human Rights Watch, Amnesty.... prove that it does not.
Are you saying that the publishing of a report that outlines massive inequalities in Israeli society is proof that there is no inequality in Israeli society? - Hm... I'll have to think about that one!!
"There is no segregation on the buses."
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/israel-needs-a-rosa-parks
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrag
"They are full citizens with all the rights that go with it."
With full rights to be moved anywhere the Government chooses to move them - in this case, to a toxic rubbish dump.
http://apjp.org/bedouin-land-culture-threaten/
http://apjp.org/2600-bedouins-threatened-with/
TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
As you just said "That lie was exposed way back."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:44 AM

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored

That is because they are all shite Don.
That assessment of "The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal" was not mine.
Can you find anyone who thinks otherwise of it?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:30 PM

"And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all."

So that's why 77% of Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in the State of Israel than anywhere else in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:10 PM

""from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority.""

And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all.

How much longer, one wonders, before the results of their sterling efforts actually become visible?

Lip service to an unwanted ideal never works. Nor does it impress the onlooker.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 06:35 PM

""Re. Kuala Lumpar thing, the former United Nations Special Rappporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[12] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[13]""

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored, and all evidence presented by those who have suffered at their hands can be dismissed.

No comment needed on the scumbag promoter of these views.

Balance?............NOT A CHANCE!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 03:10 PM

I remember a garbled film which was totally unclear as to what was happening
It is very clear.
A Hamas man relates that he got a warning call, and he phoned someone who herded civilians onto his roof.
He was standing well clear of the house as they waited!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

You will continue to ignore the Inequality Report, the book on Shatla/Sabra and every single piece of evidence you claim "does not exist" proving Israel to be a human-rights abusing terrorist state.
No, but the "eye witnesses" often lie.
Deny that Jim?
Fisk and the nurse are more reliable, but they so no evidence of IDF complicity.

I have every confidence that you will never provide the links to your claims about who said what on the film - which confirms that you have lied throughout and have no basis for those claims - prove me wrong.
I am saying that not one review refers to the six saying the wrong people were hit.
Had the six said that, it would be in every one, and the main item.
How many reviews would you like me to quote that do not mention it?
Have you seen one that does?
Be clear, ARE YOU CLAIMING THE SIX SAY THAT ON FILM?

Keith has admitted that he is 'putting the Israeli case because there is nothing else'.
Back to lying and faking quotes again Jim. Shame.

situation with the Bedouins shows these inequalities to be racially based
No. Unlike Egyptian Bedouin, they are full citizens with all the rights that go with it.
- not to mention segregation on the buses,
There is no segregation on the buses.
That lie was exposed way back.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:34 PM

"You are surely not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs should have no say.....yadda.....yadda.....yadda...."

If you read my post you will see that what I am saying is that the fact that Adalah exists is proof that Israel is a democracy....QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 01:27 PM

"Adalah is an Arab-Palestinian advocacy organization"
So what?
The report is sponsored by Christian Aid and published by the Konrad Adenauer Institute: as far as I know, has met with no serious challenges to the facts presented - but feel free.
You are surely not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs should have no say in stating their case regarding the conditions pertaining for them and other ethnic/cultural minorities in Israel - certanily not after Keith has admitted that he is 'putting the Israeli case because there is nothing else'.
Israel is now being described as an apartheid state by Israelis as well as outsiders, and the situation with the Bedouins shows these inequalities to be racially based - not to mention segregation on the buses, persecution of women praying at the Wailing Wall.....
Jim Carroll
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/027/2009/en/e9892ce4-7fba-469b-96b9-c1e1084c620c/mde150272009en.pdf
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2010/02/19/think-tank-tells-israeli-government-to-declare-war-on-peace-groups/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:15 PM

"Just how "democratic" Israel is can be found here."

Adalah is an Arab-Palestinian advocacy organization advocating for minority rights in Israel much like similar organizations that exist in other democratic countries such as my own, Canada. As such it is an indicator of a thriving democracy as one would be hard pressed to find such organizations in a fundamentalist theocracy or dictatorship. Most countries could use improvement in their treatment of minorities viz. the plight of aboriginal people in my country and others. Israel acknowledges that it too needs to improve the treatment of it's minority population, from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 12:05 PM

I remember a garbled film which was totally unclear as to what was happening - not the point anyway.
As Don has pointed out, nobody but yourself has in an any way defended terrorist activity - nobody had defended human rights abuses by Hamas, either by making excuses for them or denying they happened.
One incident by Hamas, if that's what it was, in no way excuses the whole litany of human rights abuses by Israel which have led to condemnation by the UN and by virtually every single human rights group - these have been going on since Britain pulled out of Palestine in the 1940s - at least.
The links you were given cover a whole host of those abuses (including the three on Israeli human shield violations) - you continue to ignore them.
You will continue to ignore the Inequality Report, the book on Shatla/Sabra and every single piece of evidence you claim "does not exist" proving Israel to be a human-rights abusing terrorist state.
I have every confidence that you will never provide the links to your claims about who said what on the film - which confirms that you have lied throughout and have no basis for those claims - prove me wrong.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:51 AM

Earlier this year, Freedom House declared Israel "a free country" and further, said it was "the only free country in all of the Middle East and North Africa."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Jim,
"Hamas fighters use civilians."
That has been accused of happening but not verified

Yes it has.
Just a few posts back I provided a video link showing how IDF telephone warnings of attacks were taken advantage of to rush civilian human shields to the target.
Remember now?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 11:07 AM

Just how "democratic" Israel is can be found here.
http://adalah.org/upfiles/Christian%20Aid%20Report%
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:55 AM

From the survey cited above:

"Israeli democracy. In relation to Israeli democracy, 44 per cent of Arab respondents say Israel's democracy is at the 'appropriate level', 7.8 per cent say Israel is 'too democratic', 37.2 per cent said it is 'not democratic enough' and only 11 per cent that it is 'not democratic enough by far'. The last answer corresponds to what is routinely said by virtually the entire Arab leadership. In fact, the 'vision documents' of the Arab leadership claim that Israel is not a democracy at all. That is not the opinion of the Arab public."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:47 AM

What does Israel's Arab minority really think?

The Israel Democracy Institute's 'Israeli Democracy Index 2012' – an annual comprehensive survey of the mood of Israeli society, widely considered one of the most authoritative in the field – provides some fascinating data about attitudes among Arab-Israelis regarding Israeli democracy and the state itself. The findings (not significantly different to previous years) certainly reflect a critical attitude towards the Israeli reality and government policies. But they also reflect something else: a huge gap between the responses of Arab-Israelis and the typical discourse of the Arab elite in the country; between opinion at the base and rhetoric amongst the political leadership of this community.

Findings

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 13 - 10:36 AM

Don,
call all the witnesses even Shin Bet officers who knw much more than you about it liars and antisemites.
No, I never have.

You then present the Israeli government's denial as though that were conclusive proof,
Never done that either. I have only ever put their side of the story just for the sake of balance. No reasonable person could object to that.

Jim, I have posted some quotes from reviews already.
It would be easy to Google up some more.
If the six admitted IDF Int. was shite and the wrong people were being hit, that would be the whole story and it would be huge.
Is that what you are claiming the film says Jim?

There are many accusations against Israel by its enemies, but all are denied and the evidence is not there.
Re. Kuala Lumpar thing, the former United Nations Special Rappporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[12] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[13]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 13 - 09:47 AM

What democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 13 - 08:25 AM

"Jim,I have read enough about the film so that there will be no surprise revelations for me when I see it."
Simple solution - produce the links to the sources you claim to have read so we know you are not making it up - personally I don't believe you've read anything, but are attempting to junk the information that the film carries - easily proven by linked quotes though.
"They do not criticise the intelligence information, just the use of it."
Prove what - show me the claim I have made and I'll verify it as I have verified everything else.
"Hamas fighters use civilians."
That has been accused of happening but not verified - you have just been given three examples with links of where the Israelis have done just that, using children and whole families in some cases(20 May 13 - 08:06 AM) and have refused to comment on it.
" but the "evidence" for Israeli atrocities is just not there."
Outrageously not true - you've just been given fourteen links to Israeli atrocities (20 May 13 - 03:32 PM) and a very long article from the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission containing vivid accounts of Israeli atrocities.
You are welcome to dispute all these but it is simply lying to claim that evidence "is just not there"
In return - you have not produced any evidence to back up your denials and you consistently refuse to provide links to your claims.
Making such claims makes you a liar, lying about something that is respectively 9 and 11 postings away mkes you an incredibly stupid liar.
Produce links for your claim about the film and explain your lying about there being no evidence of Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:13 AM

The evidence is there alright! You just ignore it or call all the witnesses even Shin Bet officers who knw much more than you about it liars and antisemites.

You then present the Israeli government's denial as though that were conclusive proof, and expect us to accept trhat you do this in honesty and good faith?

YOU ARE A SICK JOKE!

Don T.